Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lucky on April 07, 2010, 03:39:26 PM
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My stepdaughter of 17 years old told her father and me in the past some awful stuff about her mother. She told us her mother regularly slapped her, threatened her, cursed at her, called her names, etc. Her experiences sounded just like her father's experiences with the woman. But last Monday my husband's daughter came to our place and all of a sudden she is idealizing and idolizing her mother. I am really glad that things seem to be better between the two but still I am rather blown away by ther difference in how the girl sees her mother compared to how she saw her mother a while ago.
Does anyone recognize this kind of charm offensive by an N parent? Because I am almost certain that the woman is a N but I can't be 100% sure ofcourse.
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Hi Lucky,
Did you try talking to her to found out more about her mother?
P
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Hi Persephone,
We were too much blown away to say anything actually. My stepdaughter was giving her mother so much praise all of a sudden while we ourselves did not start talking about her mother. She was talking about her mother as if she is a Saint and she started saying that all the troubles in the past were mostly her own doing and her mother is so much everybody's victim. It was like the talk of a salesperson trying to sell something. But in the past her mother told her daughter that she hated her, regularly slapped her, hysterically screamed and shouted at her, threatened her with kicking her out of the house and with committing suicide, her mother once kicked her daughter out of the car in the middle of the night and drove away, all things her father knows the mother does because she also used to behave the same way with him. So therefore I think the mother has started some kind of charm offensive and the effect is really impressive. My mother never did that with me so for me this is something new. I have never felt like idolizing and idealizing my mother and seeing her as everybody's victim. Actually I find this whole thing rather fascinating from a psychological point of view.
We have always tried to not talk too much about the mother and also not too negatively when we do say something.
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Something I forgot to add: my stepdaughter said that her mother is actually too frail pschychologically to be working parttime and later on she asked her father if he can't do something to earn more money so that he can pay more for/to her.
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Well, she sounds like a daugher of an NM. What you wrote also sounds a little bipolar...who knows. (my NM is both). Or maybe she suffers from a completely different disorder.
In my experience of lately, I noticed that when I share some of my issues with NM, there have been a couple of friends mentioning that their Ms or Ds may have some N traits. Maybe if you share some of your experiences, she will open up. They are like the plague...
I never idolised my NM either, but sometimes, out of pure guilt, and/or mainly triggered by wishful thinking, I would say that she is good and nice and giving etc. Maybe she blackmails her to say these things.
If you care about her, (which I am sure you do), maybe talk to her and see if she opens up on what's going on...
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I do care about her, in the past I had my share of sleepless nights worrying about her and the situation with her mother.
I am afraid that if I start asking questions about the recent state of things it would seem like I am not happy with the fact that things are (seem?) harmonious now between her and her mother. And I really do wish for her to have a good relationship with her mother.
In the past we used to see my stepdaughter every other weekend, we never had real problems with her. Nowadays we only see her about once a month because she is terribly busy with school and work among other things.
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It must be hard being a step-mom and I think I understand how hard your position is (think because I 'almost' became a step-mom a few years back).
At least you care for her, if her mom doesn't. I used to think that people with step-families are lucky because they have two moms and two dads! Or that if you missed your chance to have a mom and dad with your FOO, being a kid of a step-family, you get your second chance!
My dad dated a woman for ages (NM would not give him the divorce) who died of uterine cancer and she was really nice to me but she never got the chance to see me a lot - NM had forbidden me to see my father and only saw him 3 times in my life.
Another thing that is crucial I think is the fact that maybe your step-daughter thinks that nobody would believe her that she is having a tough time (people did not believe me for years either). Maybe create a 'safe' conversation environment for her, protecting yourself in a way that your husband's ex will not be able to accuse you of interfering.
Don't know how useful any of the above is...!
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Thank you very much Persephone what you say is useful yes. I find it like walking on a minefield talking with my stepdaughter about her mother. You did open my eyes about people not believing her, maybe she is even afraid that we might tell the negative things she told us about her mother to other people. Because indeed there are other people she definitely might not want them to hear about what she told us in the past. Because these people already are quite negative about her mother and it would give them something against her or because there are people who believe her mother is a very nice woman.
Also about the blackmailing, the mother is expecting to get quite a lot of money any time soon and maybe she promised her daughter a big share. Good thinking Persephone!!
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Really glad to have helped! I feel really guilty because I haven't been of any help to anyone here (have been wallowing in self-pity for ages!)
:lol:
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Hi Lucky,
Your DH's ex seems a little like my DH's ex, except they have two boys (18/23).
She's so good at manipulation and convincing the boys how they have to take care of her, especially when she's being awful and abusive. She regularly pulls out these types of sick games, so we're not surprised anymore, and she's convinced them that everything's all DH's or someone else's fault, so she accepts no blame, thereby continuing her stronghold. And yeah, she knows how to work them over, and keep them away from DH, etc.
She's really good at the charm thing, has a lot of people fooled. It really gets to me that the boys have this sick relationship with her. She's trained them to be co-dependent with her. They don't see through it, they are stuck in the fog.
Yeah, one day she'll be abusive, and the next she knows what to do and say to keep them attached to her. But isn't this all N's?
They are so destructive and selfish.
Good luck,
KatG
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Hi KatG,
Although I have seen quite some dysfunctional behaviour during my life what is going on now every time manages to boggle my mind. Every time it shows I have not seen it all by a long run. Every time I think I understand and can predict things it all takes a funny turn. I just don't know what to make of things anymore so I'd better give up trying.
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(((Lucky)))
DH ex and a Nboss are such a destructive force in people's lives, it still does boggles my mind, but their behavior just doesn't surprise me. it's all the same result/intention, just different tactics, whatever it takes for them. Hope that's not me getting used to it. I would be surprised if they actually gained some emotional intelligence.
I've seen some pretty manipulative things that they've accomplished, all the while fooling the masses (Bernie Madoff did).
Younger one has to make payments to her to use the car, and she'll take it away for him for any reason, or coming to see his dad, and he doesn't see through her, most don't, I didn't see through my nm until I was older, and my nm's not as good at the fooling as she is.
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Hi KatG,
Would you believe I almost regret now validating my stepdaughter's emotions when things were bad between her and her mom? Crazy.
The way these N's manage to fool and manipulate so many people is just incredible. No, I am afraid that I am still not used to this. Many times I start doubting myself.
What kind of payments does the younger one have to do for the car? Some kind of rent?
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Lucky,
I'm just going to put this out there. Your stepdaughter seems to be a parentified child by her NM. I was-- and this is exactly the way I acted at her age. I did the exact same thing after telling someone that my mother abused me. I paraded around and bragged about how great my mom was and that she didn't have any problems, etc.
My NM brainwashed me to idolize her in a matter of a few days. She fell apart and became emotionally unstable for me to even uphold the idea that she was abusing me. The guilt and feeling sorry for her took precedence because she was so emotionally frail due to her "life circumstances" etc. She turned all the tables and gave me good reasons why she did what she did to me. She made me understand that she was the victim, not me. She cajoled me to believe that she was a great mom and that if I complained about her that I was a bad daughter. She literally fell apart before my eyes and that was enough for me to think that she was the victim, not me, and that she was emotionally frail because of my dad and what "he did" etc.
I never wanted to see my mom fall apart like that ever again so I was determined to put the message out there that she was a good mom and was perfectly fine, etc., the burden was on me.
I have more but don't know if this is something that relates to your stepdaughter or not. But it seems like something is up with her NM and your stepdaughter has all too quickly changed her tune. IMHO.
Bear
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Bear,
Yes, I agree that my stepdaughter changed her tune in a way I just can't comprehend. I mean I really wish for her to have a good relationship with both her parents but what I have witnessed these last seven, eight years it is just unbelievable. My husband and I both have our problems with anxiety and depression but we are not using it in any way to influence my husband's children. My husband works fulltime and has been suffering from quite severe insomnia for years now but he is not using it to guilt trip or manipulate his children in any way (not that it would work for him anyway). If my husband would have treated any of his children the was she has he would have been dead meat.
Thank you for telling me about your (terrible) experience.
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Thank you so much bear, you explain well! I feel for kids - it's so abusive.
Years ago, when DH's younger son was about 13, it would always take 24/48 (depending on how rough things had been for him) hours to calm down after being over at her house. We'd just wait out that day or two, and then he'd be back to normal. Then the next week we'd do it all over again. That's changed now that she's figured out more techniques.
Lucky, there's no offense/defense that we've found that works. You can't really even mention her name. But most N's next step would be to get daughter to forget how her dad really is - and there's no great defense to that, but I can most certainly say what helps immensely is to make sure you have photos and memorabilia for her to be reminded of the good times she's had with her dad, you, and at your house. It's amazing how N's wipe those memories away until prompted by something tangible. I wish I had done more in this regard, but what we do have has been a saving grace.
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Another point of view and just my humble opinion...Never underestimate a child's need for love and approval from her mother, even at 17. It may seem bewildering because of the abuse, but your stepdaughter may still may want everything to be okay with her mom...and may twist herself up to please her just so she can have some sort of relationship.
Both of my parents have personality disorders. When they divorced, it was really, really ugly. And for many, many years afterwards, they played these sort of games, what you call a "charm offensive," and sometimes worse. It was like being stuck in the middle of a war zone.
For the most part, I did see through most of it, though dimly--and I suspect that your stepdaughter has some sort of awareness of this, too. And seeing through it hurts a lot, because you realize it's not about you, it's not about them loving you. It's about them forming alliances and getting paybacks. So it's very easy to push that realization far, far into the back of your mind and do whatever it is you can do to try to make them love you even though on a much deeper and hidden level, you know that if they truly cared about you, they wouldn't be pulling that sh*t. But still...but still you want them to love you!
At her age, I still held out some hope that I could make things better with both parents and that I would someday do that special something (take on the blame, act like the responsible parent, eat a banana standing on my head while singing the Star Spangled Banner) that would FINALLY do the trick and make everyone and everything okay. It took the better part of the next decade to extricate myself from that.
I don't know if you're asking for advice or are just attempting to understand the behavior, but I will say IMHO, that the best thing you and her father can do for her is to be there for her consistently, keep being the good people you are, and continue loving her and seeing her for who she really is. You may not see the benefits right away, but you will be making a huge difference in her life.
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Hello Lollie,
You say: you and her father can do for her is to be there for her consistently, keep being the good people you are, and continue loving her and seeing her for who she really is. You may not see the benefits right away, but you will be making a huge difference in her life.
That is exactly what we are trying to do.
I really do understand what you are saying about my stepdaughter wanting her mother's love. I am 40 now and my sister will be 43 soon and in a way I think we are still trying and hoping for my mother's love.
Hello KatG,
Yes, I get the impression that she does seem to forget or underestimate the good things her father does and has done in the past. Over the years she has been away on Holiday with us a number of times, twice we also took her best friend with us.
I probably will scan pictures from these past experiences, also from the Christmas dinners we had together with her, and e-mail these to her.
She does seem to find it strange that her father has hardly seen anything of the parents of her brother's girlfriend. Because her mother has seen quite a lot of these people. The girlfriend's parents are also divorced, the mother remarried. Especially the girlfriend's mother and my H's ex wife seem to have a close bond. My husband said to his son that they can come and see us and twice the girlfriend said we should make an appointment and go and see them at their house but this never happened. My H's son and his girlfriend have been together for seven years and her mother and father don't live far away. With birthdays we are always going separately from the other birthday guests, it was this last time we went that for the first time also the girlfriend's father was present.
We told my stepdaughter that we are open for contact and have told this to my stepson and his girlfriend but nothing happens.
In the back of my mind though I think that because my H's ex wife got to see these people first, she has already influenced them, just like she did with my stepson and his girlfriend. So be it, I always think live and let live.
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I have more but don't know if this is something that relates to your stepdaughter or not.
Bear,
I am interested to hear what you have more.
When a person is dealing with an N the best thing is to be able to see all focus points and not be blind to anything. It's not that we are trying to use it for a war or something, just for our own peace of mind and hopefully to be useful and helpful to the N's victims without making things worse.
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Reading this I really get the feeling it is for the biggest part about parentification. My stepdaughter recently said that her best friend should not go out till late because her mother needs her emotionally (also divorced not so long ago and looking at her daughter for support and understanding). I have been parentified as well but my parents are still together and that has made a difference I think.
http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/03/06/parental-alienation-why-kids-usually-side-with-the-custodial-parent-especially-if-theyre-emotionally-abusive/
Emotionally and/or physically abusive women and men are scary when on the attack, which probably makes it all the more confusing to see your ex turn your child(ren) against you. Don’t your kids see how out of whack their mom or dad is being? Don’t they know that you love them and how much you want to be in their lives? Don’t they realize they need you now more than ever? Yes and no.
On some level, they do know this. Nonetheless, they’re lashing out at you like mini-versions of your ex. Why?
It’s not that confusing if you think about it from a child’s perspective. Children depend utterly upon their custodial parent. Seeing mom or dad lose it and out of control is anxiety provoking, if not downright terrifying. The following are possible reasons why your ex’s campaign of parental alienation may be successful.
1. You left them alone with the crazy person. You got out and they didn’t. They’re mad that you’re not there anymore to intervene, act as a buffer, protect them or take the brunt of it.
2. Self-preservation. They see how your ex is treating you because she or he is angry with you. Your kid(s) don’t want your ex’s wrath directed at them. It’s like making “friends” with the school bully so they don’t pick on you.
3. Fear of loss. They’re worried that if they anger or displease your ex that they’ll be emotionally and/or physically banished, too. This is especially true if your ex used to shut you out, give you the cold shoulder and/or ignore you when she or he was upset with you. Your kids probably fear your ex will do this to them if they don’t go along with her or him.
4. They’re mad at you. You’re no longer physically present at home, which they experience as a psychological loss. Many kids experience this as betrayal and/or abandonment. Even if they can recognize that you didn’t have a happy marriage, they still want mom and dad to be together.
Loss, whether it’s physical (death) or psychological (divorce), requires a mourning period. Children aren’t psychologically equipped to handle grief and mourning. Pending other developmental milestones, kids don’t have the psychological capacity to successfully navigate loss until mid-adolescence. If you’d died, they could idealize your memory. However, you’re alive and chose to leave (or your ex chose for you). How do you mourn the loss of someone who’s not dead? It takes a level of intellectual sophistication children don’t possess not to vilify the physically absent parent—especially when your ex isn’t capable of it as an adult.
5. Rewards and punishment. Your ex “rewards” the kids (material goods, praise, trips and fun activities—probably with your support money—oh the irony) for siding with her, being cruel to you or cutting you off. If your kid(s) stand up for you or challenge your ex’s smear campaign, they’re chastised, lose privileges or have affection withheld from them. Remember how your ex used to treat you when she or he was displeased? It’s way scarier when you’re a kid. You have options as an adult that your children don’t.
6. The good son or daughter. They see how upset and out of control your ex is and want to take care of and make her or him “better.” They try to do this by doing what your ex wants, which is being hostile toward you and/or excluding you from their lives. This creates what psychologists refer to as the parentified child. Parentification forces a child to shoulder emotions and responsibilities for which she or he isn’t developmentally prepared and is also a form of child abuse.
Emotional parentification is particularly destructive for children and frequently occurs in parental alienation cases. The custodial parent implicitly or explicitly dumps their emotional needs on the child. The child becomes the parent’s confidante, champion/hero and surrogate for an adult partner. This is extremely unhealthy as it robs children of their childhood and leads to difficulty in having normal adult relationships later in life.
7. Power and control. They see the power your ex wields by behaving in an abusive and hurtful way toward you. They can wield the same power by acting out and hurting you, too. A child or teenager’s first taste of power can be thrilling for them. Of course, what they’re learning from you ex is how to gain control by being an emotionally abusive bully.
8. It’s good to be the victim. The more your ex plays the professional victim to friends, family and the legal system, the more benefits she or he gains—deferential treatment, sympathy, power, and money. The kids mirror your ex’s victim mentality and behaviors and use it to net their own gains.
A combination of the above reasons probably applies to child(ren) siding with your abusive and alienating ex, particularly when you’ve been a good and loving parent. It’s demoralizing to have your kid(s) slap or push you away each time you reach out to them. It’s maddening that family court in many cases is blind to the abuses of parental alienation. Try to keep in mind that most children aren’t consciously aware that the above phenomena are occurring. Of course, that doesn’t make it any easier to be the emotional and financial punching bag for your ex and children.
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Yes, I agree that my stepdaughter changed her tune in a way I just can't comprehend. I mean I really wish for her to have a good relationship with both her parents but what I have witnessed these last seven, eight years it is just unbelievable. My husband and I both have our problems with anxiety and depression but we are not using it in any way to influence my husband's children. My husband works fulltime and has been suffering from quite severe insomnia for years now but he is not using it to guilt trip or manipulate his children in any way (not that it would work for him anyway). If my husband would have treated any of his children the was she has he would have been dead meat.
Isnt this the way it goes - some over entitled, some underentitled, and distressed.
And re the step daughters behaviour, ..........."changed her tune in a way I just can't comprehend"............. I do recognise this, its the lack of continuity, she's not able to have a contuous 'I' , so her experience is totally different in this moment that it was before. Its also to do with the 'need' to hop over reality, and one gets a sort of delerious, unreal high. I'm afraid I know this one because I've done it.
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I do recognise this, its the lack of continuity, she's not able to have a contuous 'I' , so her experience is totally different in this moment that it was before. Its also to do with the 'need' to hop over reality, and one gets a sort of delerious, unreal high. I'm afraid I know this one because I've dont it.
I have read lots and lots about narcissism but that is totally new to me I think. I have to do some thinking if I have ever experienced the same with regard to my own mother.
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I certainly didnt with regard to my own mother, but I did it with other dysfunctional, abandoning, addictive adult relationships. Its not everyone's thing, it may be part of my addictive thing, the highs and lows etc.
I have called it 'magical shortage' ~~~ when you live in that place of emotional starvation, the little bits you get get you high, because it represents the experience of 'solving' that historic problem. Thats my own theory, based on experiences.
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River, I see what you mean now. I think this might be the so called betrayal bond/trauma bond or stockholm syndrome. Any kindness from the abuser makes the victim put the abuser on a pedestal. It is also what happens in cults and with interrogations.
I really hope my stepdaughter will not end up being a very damaged person.
From the shrink for men website:
Stage I: Breaking Down the Self
1. Assault on Identity. “You are not who you think you are.” This step is comprised of an unrelenting attack on your identity or ego. For example, You’re a jerk. You’re a loser. You’re selfish. You don’t deserve me. You don’t have any friends. Your family doesn’t care about you. You don’t make enough money. These kinds of attacks have a destabilizing effect that breaks your stride and keeps you off kilter. The assault continues until you become “exhausted, confused and disoriented,” which causes your sense of self, beliefs and values to weaken.
2. Guilt. “You are bad.” Once your identity crisis sets in, you’re then criticized for offenses great, small and imaginary. You snore. You chew your food to loudly. You’re not sensitive enough. You’re too sensitive. You breath wrong. You blink too much. You don’t fold the towels correctly. You never do this. You always do that. Why can’t you be more like so and so? The constant arguments and criticisms that cast you as the bad guy make you believe you deserve to be punished and treated badly. You feel a general sense of shame, that you’re wrong and that everything you do, don’t do, say or don’t say is wrong.
Humiliation and shaming tactics destroy your confidence and make you feel bad about yourself, which puts you in a malleable and submissive state. Shame is a form of paralysis. Inducing a sense of shame doesn’t just make you feel bad; it make you believe that you are bad.
3. Self-Betrayal. “Agree with me that you are bad.” Because you’re now disoriented and feeling a pervasive sense of guilt and shame, she can manipulate you into going against your own best interests. You forsake your own needs and make choices that are detrimental to your well-being. This is the time when an abusive spouse or girlfriend will begin to isolate you and/or get you to turn against your friends and family. The betrayal of yourself, your beliefs and the people you once felt loyal to increases your feelings of shame, guilt and loss and also makes you easier to control.
4. Breaking Point. “Who am I, where am I and what am I supposed to do?” You no longer know who you are. You’re confused and disoriented from gaslighting and constantly being fed a distorted version of yourself and reality. You may feel like you’re having a nervous breakdown or feel depressed, anxious, traumatized and a host of other negative emotional and physical symptoms like insomnia, paranoia and digestive problems.
You question your judgment, perceptions and sense of reality. She tells you she loves you yet continues to treat you horribly. You believe she loves you and that you must be a colossal jerk for her to always be so upset. If she’s successfully isolated you or gotten you to isolate yourself, you can’t reality test her version of events or receive outside support. By this time, she’s made you totally dependent upon her and solely focused upon pleasing her, gaining her approval and avoiding her wrath or disapproval. You probably feel completely alone. Alternatively, if you’re still in contact with friends and family, you fear that if you tell them what’s going on that they wouldn’t believe you or wouldn’t understand.
Stage II: The Possibility of Salvation
5. Leniency. “I can help you.” This is what I like to call the tyranny of small mercies. Periodically, this kind of woman will offer you some small kindness or you’ll have a “fun” afternoon together in which she appears normal. Because your perception has been so warped, the tiniest act of kindness or absence of overt hostility and/or icy withdrawal fosters gratitude, relief and a sense of adoration within you. In reality, she’s not kind and she’s not normal.
The disparity between her bad behavior and good/neutral behavior is so great that the simple act of heating up a can of soup for you makes her seem like Lady Benevolence. Her minuscule and infrequent acts of normalcy cause you to romanticize her. “This is why I love her. She can be so sweet.” It also causes you to experience a destructive sense of false hope. “If only she could be this way all the time. Maybe she will if I just try harder to please her.” The only way you can please this kind of woman is by continuing to allow her to harm you.
6. Compulsion to Confess. “You can help yourself.” You’re so grateful for the small kindnesses she bestows in between periods of covert and overt abuse that you agree with her criticisms and devaluations. For example, you agree that your friends are bad for you and that your family is controlling and dysfunctional (um, hello, pot meet kettle). You promise to be more attentive and sensitive to her needs and see your needs as evidence of your selfishness.
Alternatively, you agree with her just to make the rages, derision and accusations stop. By the way, this is why torture techniques don’t work for intelligence purposes. People will say anything to make the torture stop. By this time, your personality has changed. You’re hypervigilant to her moods, ego gratification demands and wishes.
You’re overwhelmed and confused by her accusations and criticisms. Subsequently, you feel a pervasive sense of shame. However, you’re so disoriented that you don’t know what you’re guilty of anymore. You just feel wrong.
The Goal: Pointless Control with No End to the Abuse
Individuals or groups who use brainwashing techniques are deliberately trying to convert followers, change political allegiance or get people to buy their brand of soda. The ultimate goal is to breakdown your identity and replace your belief system with their doctrines in order to make you an obedient follower. Once they achieve their aims, the psychological torture stops because you’ve become a faithful acolyte.
Unlike professional terrorists, cult leaders and prison camp commandants, abusive narcissistic, borderline, histrionic and sociopathic wives and girlfriends don’t have an end goal for their brainwashing techniques. They don’t know what they want. They just know that they want to control you in order to feel in control of themselves. This is why they don’t progress past the sixth brainwashing step and complete the process through the third stage, Rebuilding the Self.
By keeping you stuck in the Possibility of Salvation stage, you become locked into perpetual hoop jumping mode. She says if you do x, y and z she’ll finally be happy. You do x, y and z and then she either has a new set of expectations, demands and requirements or tells you that you didn’t do x, y and z to her satisfaction or that you only did it to make her happy not because you wanted to do it. You’re caught in a maddening cycle of trying to please her and not being able to please her with no relief or “salvation” in sight.
Abusive borderline, narcissistic and histrionic women’s moods, beliefs and realities change from day to day and, in extreme cases, minute to minute. They want whatever their current mood or insecurity dictates and change their beliefs, demands and perceptions accordingly. The only doctrine they offer is, “You’re wrong and bad” and “It’s all about me, my needs and my feelings” and “you need to fight for me” or “you need to fight for this relationship” (never mind that she is the one who is destroying it). This keeps you destabilized and in a perpetual state of guilt, shame, hypervigilance and confusion.
She puts you into no win situations, double binds and keeps raising the bar of her expectations for as long as you let her. You never get to reach the third stage of a new identity that brings some relief. She keeps you stuck in the cycle of abuse where she will psychologically torture you until there’s nothing left of you.
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I recently read an book called "Understanding the Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson. It opened my eyes seriously to my own mom. It sounds like it might be helpful to you too. A borderline personality is a type of narcissistic personality.
The book also goes into how having a mom like this affects the children and the development of the children's personality. So not only might you get a deeper understanding of your husband's ex, but you might get a deeper understanding of how this 17 year old daughter's personality has been impacted.
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Hi Lucky,
That's a helpful website, Shrink for Men, it relates to my DH's ex. Thank you so much for sharing that.
His ex will get absorbed in the boys life - gf's, etc, i fully expect that. Sure she'll vilify DH to them. She did get absorbed with DH's own family and friends - almost like she tried to take them away from him completely, keeping them for herself. She'd invite them to places/things, like she was placing herself between them and DH (lying the whole time). We have to deal with her being at DH's nieces' weddings, etc. They try to stay neutral, be nice, and will just not ever get it.
And the children could become victims who perpetuate her cycle.
All these posts are helping to connect words with actions for me. Thank you all so much.
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Hello HeartofPilgrimage,
Thank you for mentioning that book, I will try to get a copy.
Hello KatG,
It is incredible how these women are always busy scheming, controlling, setting people up against each other, scapegoating, trying to charm certain people into their camp, etc. No wonder many of them are too tired to work for their living :lol:.
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It is incredible how these women are always busy scheming, controlling, setting people up against each other, scapegoating, trying to charm certain people into their camp, etc.
oh, they do get busy doing that don't they?
DH's ex (well paid corp exec) as well as a Nboss at work are like terminators, they have tons of energy, they never stop. And they use their money to impress others, fill gaps in their lives - which is why they always need more.
Lucky, your step-daughter has you and her dad. She may stray for a while, make mistakes, etc., but when she gets older she may find sites like these, the truth, and start to discover things.
at least, that's what i'm hoping for with my dh's boys.
i now appreciate my dad's parents efforts, have been realizing some of their actions, even though they are gone now. But at least it may have kept me from going completely off the deep end.
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I think my stepdaughter is terribly co dependent at the moment. I hope she will snap out of that state as soon as she starts living on her own but I do not count on it. My experience is that often people get a bad burnout and anxiety/depression after leaving a N. But we will do our utmost to be there for her as we are trying to do now.
Her mother says she can't work fulltime because of depression and therefore her father has to pay lots of money but on the other hand the mother has gotten involved in local politics. Being busy in a polital party must also be quite hard. My stepdaughter is working like crazy while she also going to school, so she is terribly busy.
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I have more but don't know if this is something that relates to your stepdaughter or not.
Bear,
I am interested to hear what you have more.
When a person is dealing with an N the best thing is to be able to see all focus points and not be blind to anything. It's not that we are trying to use it for a war or something, just for our own peace of mind and hopefully to be useful and helpful to the N's victims without making things worse.
Lucky, I just wanted to share my experience being raised by an N and how when I was a teenager, I still felt the need to glorify my mother evethough she was a terrible person. I can remember going to a therapy session on Family Day at the rehab center my brother was staying at for alcohol and drug abuse. I stood up for my mother and told everyone she was a good mom while knowing on the inside it was not true but I wanted everyone to believe that she was terrific, then maybe I could eventually believe it as well. Trouble is, I lied to everyone and to myself. I fooled myself into thinking she was perfect, kind, giving, etc. Moreover, I had the job of feeling sorry for her. It always was about her and I didn't realize this until I was in my 30's. I wanted a mother at any cost and was willing to make one up for the sake of my broken heart and yearning for love.
My mother forced me to believe her problems with money and job performance and failed relationships were because of "everyone else" not because of her. So eventually, I felt sorry and sad for her and thought everyone else was too hard on her.
I became enthralled in her world and not my own. Her world and feelings were first and I had to get the message to people in the family that she was the victim. This was my effort to win my mother's love and adoration. Sad thing is, I lost myself in her world and her problems. All the glorification I gave her and all the lies I told people that she was awesome and needed a break and was emotionally unstable, etc., was for her ego and my inevitable self-destruction. I dropped out of college and became depressed.
I don't know what else to share as your step-daughter may have a slightly different dynamic with her NM. However, if her mother is an N, the you can bet she is carrying her mother around on her back and she will only let go of her when she's ready and when she's had enough.
I will tell you that I appreciated the support that other family member gave throughout my ordeals with my NM. Other family members were by my side and I felt comfort eventhough I didn't know how to acknowledge it. It came later to me. I look back now and love the family members even more knowing that they knew what was going on but supported me were always there for me like rocks to cling to.
Education about narcissism is the key for you, especially in a mother who is an N.
I hope you the best in this situation. You are so brave and so intelligent to be here and seeking a learning arena for this situation. Bravo to you!!!!!!!
((((((hugs)))))
Bear
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Bear, can I ask you what about your family’s support that you found helpful?
When you say ‘by your side’, etc? Any examples? I certainly don't want to make it worse.
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((((((((((((Bear)))))))))))) thank you for sharing your experience.
I am not here in the first place because of my stepdaughter but because of the fact that I have a NM myself. However I myself have never felt much positive feelings towards my mother. Neither terribly negative. The dynamic of idealizing and idolizing I am not familiar with, my sister also never behaved that way. However I really hope that in the end my own experiences, all the help of the wonderful ladies here and my own learning and reading about narcissism will make a difference for my stepdaughter as well. Since I started to try to heal (four years ago) things luckily also have gotten better with me in the empathy department. So this is not only a good thing for myself but also for my stepdaughter (I really hope so!!). I do my utmost to have as much as possible empathy with my stepdaughter and I push her father to do so as well. Not for us, not to manipulate her in any way but for her mental health (and hapiness ofcourse). Not to say that her father does not have much empathy but he has a bit of a handicap from his own childhood (his father died when he was three years old, he was the last and sixth child and his mother could not really cope). I have experienced myself how damaging a NM is. I have suffered a lot from anxiety and depression, lack of assertiveness, etc.
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I just came across this and thought that my H and I really should keep it in mind at all times:
http://www.anythingtostopthepain.com/
Dialectical Behavior Therapy Validation Strategies for Parents
By Christy Matta, MA
How Do We Validate
Validation and active listening techniques are specific ways of approaching your child to increase cooperation and balance the change we are often asking for from our children.
1. Responsiveness: Addressing our children with interest in what they are saying, doing and understanding. Expressing concern about his or her wishes and needs.
2. Warm engagement: Approaching kids with warmth and friendliness. Active positive communication with our voice, tone and posture.
3. Self-Disclosure: Communicating our own attitudes, opinions, and emotional reactions to our children, as well as reactions to how they are behaving.
4. Genuineness: Being ourselves, rather than always acting as “parent” or “authority figure.”
5. Vulnerability: Empowering them, rather than having an exclusively high-power-low-power relationship.
6. Cheerleading: Cheerleading is helpful in validating the person’s inherent ability to overcome difficulties and learn new skills. It is believing in our children, assuming the best, providing encouragement, focusing on their capabilities, contradicting other people’s criticisms that are not accurate, and providing praise and reassurance.
7. Articulating their unverbalized emotions, thoughts, or behavior patterns. Children are often unaware of their own feelings and behaviors. It is validating for us to give voice to what they are thinking and feeling.
Remember: what each individual child finds validating is different. One child may respond to simply being listened to, while another may respond when you articulate and express understanding for how he or she feels. Our children are not the only ones who can benefit from understanding and active listening. Husbands, friends, family and yes, even we, ourselves, need it. We all have times when we’ve got an important problem, emotional pain, are having trouble with change or are feeling out-of-control. Validation can help us and our children make necessary changes and face challenges.
In my house, once I stop pushing everyone to ‘get things done,’ I find the solutions come fairly easily. My kids will pick up the toys if I assure them they can keep out their favorite. They’ll put their dishes in the dishwasher if we spend dinner talking about their day and I notice small attempts they’ve made to be helpful around the house. My family life is not a fairytale of cooperation and teamwork, but I do find that when I’m paying attention and listening to my kids, I feel less like I’m alone in the never ending battle against disarray.
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Just wanted to say thanks for this link to s hrinkformen, I want to come back and read this, but it looks pretty good. 'Magical shortage' and the 'tyranny of small mercies', interesting to find the same conclusion arrived at separately.
I havent had time to read all the other posts.
Re your step daughter, I'd imagine she will be affected, but people find thier ways towards healing, tho its hard to witness it in the meantime!
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Yesterday I gave my stepdaughter a link to a website for children of all ages of a depressed parent. Because she has told us herself that het mother is depressed (I am certain it is more then "just" depression) so it was safe to address the depression. Her mother has been threatening with suicide these last twenty years at least but she never tried to do it. I think she uses it to get her way and manipulate people.
Yes, the Shrink for men site is a wonderful site. I have also read a lot on the forum, it is really interesting to read the experiences there.
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I recently read an book called "Understanding the Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson. It opened my eyes seriously to my own mom. It sounds like it might be helpful to you too. A borderline personality is a type of narcissistic personality.
The book also goes into how having a mom like this affects the children and the development of the children's personality. So not only might you get a deeper understanding of your husband's ex, but you might get a deeper understanding of how this 17 year old daughter's personality has been impacted.
@HeartofPilgrimage: I have just ordered the book. I had not forgotten about it but it took me a while.
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IOW, once you know it for what it is...
N-charm is offensive.
Hops