Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: seastorm on April 15, 2010, 12:15:34 AM
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Wouldnt it be great, if instead of having to go for counseling for years and crying a river of tears and tearing out your hair and also just basically lying around being collateral damage for these bad people who ruin lives IF..... there were a group of smart, funny, well informed people who could help victims of Ps and Ns get even. They would outline strategies and put their vast legal resources to work to get these bad guys. There would be lots of brilliant people to research the labyrinth of financial and emotional subterfuge.
First you would get a report of about 50 dense of succinct reportage and then you could choose what you want to do. Maybe post a site that outs the maniacs or whatever. There would be a panel of lawyers who knew what you could do within the law.
It is about time that society recognized that ethical and soul murder is wrong and just because it is not about the law it needs to be looked at . I can see why it would not work very well and people would take advantage of it in unfortuanate ways but I really wish there was more for victims.
Sea storm
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Hi Sea,
I hear what you're saying. I've have had times when I've been so angry and bitter at, not only the way a lot of what happens is invisible so no-one gets it, but that I'm the one in pieces, on anti-depressants, in therapy and so on, whilst my mum is enjoying lazy lunches and busy organising her next social gathering.
But do you know what? I think the best way to get even is to go to counselling and tear your hair out and cry rivers of tears - get all that unexpressed emotion that holds you back out of your system, re-train your brain to think logically, emotionally and honestly instead of being pumped full of the N "you're no good, you can't cope, you're ugly, everyone hates you" stuff, dump all the baggage so that in twenty years time your kids aren't posting on a message board about having an N for a mother.
Some of what my mum has done still upsets me a bit from time to time (I've been NC for nearly three and a half years now) but she is no longer any kind of driving influence in my life. Sometimes a thought pops up that's hers and not mine, but I recognise it as such now and can consider it and discard or reject it as I see fit. I have a much better idea of who I am and what I like and I am parenting my boy a million times better than she ever did me.
I have often felt envious of my mum for having a much easier life than I do (largely because she hasn't got someone like her going out of their way to make life difficult) but just recently I've started looking toward the future. My son's disabled so he requires a lot of care but he's getting better all the time, so I reckon I could probably go back to work part time in the next couple of years. That gives me hope for the future; we'll have more money, I can make new friends, I might even meet a nice man. I have a lovely boy, a sister I'm very close to, a handful of amazingly strong women who are my friends and, most importantly, a mental state that is greatly improved and much more balanced and self aware now. My mum is almost seventy. Out of six kids, one speaks to her. Out of eight grandchildren, she sees two. She's married to a man who is grumpy, opinionated, selfish, a bit on the dim side and very boring. The only people she still sees socially are the ones who drink as much as she does and I reckon, best case scenario, she's got ten years of drinking ahead of her before she dies, probably alone and probably in pain. She doesn't enjoy anything about her life, which is why she drinks. She moans constantly, she criticises everyone, very few people like her and she is completely emotionally unavailable. I can look at my little boy and feel my heart sing. I don't think she's ever been able to do that.
I think wanting some sort of revenge is a very normal, healthy part of getting better - I think it shows you're at a stage where you recognise someone has done wrong to you and you want it put right (at least that was how I felt at the time). But I reckon the path you're on - healing, self-improvement, learning how to love and accept yourself (and how to spot people you need to keep away from!) is a brilliant way of getting your own back - although of course, if you do get the chance to sue, it would be silly not to!! ;0
Hugs to you,
Twoapenny :)
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Sea - I would be happy if society would just recognize emotional abuse (in all it's forms) and say vehemently that it's "politically incorrect"... like they have with so many other things that don't have quite the same life-long impact. If teachers would recognize the symptoms in children; if schools had the budget to reach out to these kids... if peer-pressure or societal disapproval would push the abusers back under the rock they crawled out from.
I also agree that there need to be more resources (especially legal) to help people recover their lives and put a secure boundary up for the abusers. Sadly, a woman in our area was recently killed by an abusive ex - despite a legal restraining order that said the ex should have no contact whatsoever with her. This happens all too frequently everywhere - and yet the "system" doesn't seem to provide the necessary security or even recognize that the abusers know no boundaries, rules, and won't be controlled by any legal means. The system favors and supports the abusers more than the victims at this point - despite all the efforts (usually by women-run groups) to change that.
All that said... the best revenge, in my book... is to live as well as I can and to outlast & survive the "turkeys"... and to not even spare a thought for the people who thought they were so important, special, or that the "rules" didn't apply to them... as to be able abuse others this way.
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Wow! What wonderful, strong and insightuf comments. Thank you, Thank you.
Dear Twoapenny, you have obviously been through the very wars I am talking about. And yes i am bitter. It took me a long time to get angry and now Halleijiah I am laughing at the whole catastrophe occasionally. And visualizing lovely people making right what was so wrong. Galloping into the night with war cries and conviction.
Someone I like told me that they thought I was a very grounded person and it was comforting to be with me. That is nice. However, I am finally claiming back the strong side too.
There is so much wisdom in what you say " The abusers dont back down .... and you are lucky to get away with your life. " That is so true. I think my ex is escalating his behaviour and would stop at nothing with this next wife. God Help Her.
Phoenix Rising: Very helpful thought to live well and banish N from brain. This will take some very fancy mental Akido for me. There seems to be so much collusion with offenders in society. People who rape, pedophiles, soul murderers are often protected by a system that is purporting to help victims. Instead the victims end up feeling re offended against. I agree. The government is not going to pay for it. Maybe there needs to be churches of healing that arent built on worshipping a God.
Motherof2 : Thank you. I find I need the basic facts spelled out over and over. It kind of helps to deprogram me. The system does support abusers. How crazy is that? God bless the victims who walk away with their lives.
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starting a club to help victims of Ns get even in a big way
That's a pretty darn good idea. I'm going to do some thinking on that.
However, IMO it shouldn't be to get even, which can imply revenge, it should be to gain restitution for what they have stolen.
mud
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Hi mudpuppy,
I do not know what IMO means. What about poetic justice. Lets think outside the box here. Do something concrete that would give the victim something other than better character from being assaulted.
For instance, ten complete strangers say " I know what you did and you are going to get what you deserve" . Nice and abstract. Veiled threat. It could make them do some aweful thing though and be very bad Karma. Don't you think we are wayyyyyy too nice about all the rotten things out there?
Not that I, who was raised in the Baptist\Presbetyrian bosum, would do it because I am too nice. But as it is the scales are too much in their favour.
Sea storm
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Wonderful, insightful comments from all. We're a great group of survivors: flaws, pain, baggage and all.
My "getting even" with my NM is that I know her. I know her SO well. Not so well in the past, which allowed her to emotionally abuse me. Created the pain I lived with for many years. Created some of the destructive habits I now have. But I know what she is all about. That gives me the advantage because SHE doesn't know me. Has never known me. Will never know me. Has made no attempt to know me.
It's scary what mankind does to its own. All under the shield of government, religion, class, power, politics, law, prejudice. One of my favorite songs is John Lennon's "Imagine". So if he is not the "only one", why are all of us so silent? Why do we allow society to dictate to us? Why are we not standing in the streets and demanding that all humans be treated with dignity, be loved and appreciated? Why are we not demanding that our abusers.......................okay, I am ranting.
I don't have any answers. I am just happy to have survived my own hell.
:wink:
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Maybe there needs to be churches of healing that arent built on worshipping a God.
There's a REALLY powerful idea in this statement, Sea. I need to let it germinate some to know exactly what I'm seeing/hearing.
A church, a club, an organization that collects the information about legal resources, healing help, etc. Here at the beach, there already is such an organization dedicated to helping victims of domestic abuse (which almost always involves the kind of emotional abuse we've collectively been through). I don't think I have the ability to work the 24-hr help phones (I'd be triggered too easily - still - myself) all that well. But I could certainly find some other way to contribute and make a difference. I believe almost every community has something similar.
But for some victims, I think those orgs might as well be on the moon; I mean that the "system" still requires the victim to self-identify as a victim and seek help on their own. In my case - it was 40 years before I got to that point. So maybe it's a marketing-educational problem I'm seeing... getting the message that there is help (without the message of "victimhood")... for people who aren't sure "what is wrong" yet; who are too quick to place the blame on themselves and stay in dangerous or damaging situations.
And please - can we completely de-bunk the idea that it's better to stay in a bad marriage/relationship "for the sake of the kids"?? Talk about shifting responsibility; projecting fear and adding additional woe to what is already a bad scene for the kids. I'm proof that despite the consequences of economic hardship - that is ALWAYS a bad idea when violence is involved.
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I do not know what IMO means.
Sorry sea. It means 'in my opinion'.
I'm not too good at the abstract thinking stuff so the direction I am thinking is an oganization that gives legal aid of some sort to N victims. There are far too many stories on here of people who are essentially held captive by their inability to respond in the one area where Ns are usually most vulnerable; civil court.
Either people can't afford to seek justice for what has been done to them or they are bled dry in the attempt.
Obviously this approach only helps those who want or even have a legal avenue to pursue. It doesn't take the place of therapy or friends or setting appropriate boundaries, etc and legal action is certainly not appropriate in many cases. But it would fill a very large hole for a lot of people.
Like I said there is something to think about here.
mud
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Back to back Dr. Phil and Oprah yesterday both dealt with domestic tyranny and the courts not believing victims.
One mother did every possible legal thing to have her Nsociopath H not allowed alone with kids. Judge told her he thought she was lying just to alienate the father. Father stabbed her kids to death on "his weekend." Another, and another, and another story....women who had every legal step and were then told in family court (usually by male judges) that they weren't believed about the danger and should just "work it out." Kids die, women die, daily...
So I'm pessimistic about people getting effective protection from ... Npaths.
Hops
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So I'm pessimistic about people getting effective protection from ... Npaths.
Yeah, but it's hardly likely that the stories about people getting back what was stolen from them or being properly protected by the courts is going to make it to Oprah is it?
mud
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That's true too, Mud.
I remember the judge telling my brother, 'You mean you'd expect to stay in your sister's home against her wishes, when you have no relationship with her? I will not allow that.'
It was the first time in my life I ever felt anyone literally step into the path of his bullying, and say (with clout): NO.
On balance, though, I think the deck is generally stacked against Nvictims trying to right the scales.
So glad you're still present here, good brother.
Hops
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There must be stories that are a little triumphant. There is something terribly wrong with how many judges see these charismatic devils. I am just saying we need to at least call attention to it and make a small start. Information shared on this site has probably saved lives. That is not insignificant.
Court seems to be so much about material possessions and property. The people who make these decisions are not the best suited to decide everything.
I dont know a lawyer. I dont even know someone who knows a lawyer so I dont have any access to that way of thinking. I dont know how to play hardball. Time I learned. For those special occasions.
Sea storm
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I wish someone could invent a narcissist detector. That the narc could be singled out and punished, get the punishment the narc deserves.
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That is an excellent idea. They probably generate pheromones or have some scent that is detectable. If scientists got going on this it could be very interesting. Or voice tone aberations. I know my N would get sort of incomprehensible talking over, under, around a subject till he kind of baffled me with bullshit. He only did this occasionally when he was being a snake.
Do you think your N detector has improved?
Sea storm
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I'd be happy if they just locked up "Balloon Boys" father before he does more damage to his poor kids. Last I heard he was still running around free and the little boy was still throwing up when people asked him too many questions. I think one of the problems with punishing N's is that far too many celebrities are flaming N's and people are more likely to worship them than put them away. Sad but true!
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It getting a bit silly for sure. I think laughing and scorning the fear that Ns generate is pretty healthy.
Detecting Ns is not silly though. Very important.
Sea Storm
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I was thinking in terms of some lie detector because with their lying and manipulating they can make the victim look bad and themselves look good/the victim. That is very confusing for the victim and the bystanders. If there just would be a way to detect which one of the two or more people is in fact the NARC then the right person could be punished. At the moment it is often the victim that is being punished for being wrong and seeing things wrong. When the victim is pushed to the limit and looses it, bystanders consider that person the crazy one. Wouldn't it be great if theri would be a decisive way to make 100% clear who is the predator, the persecutor, the aggressor? So that we know we can believe the victim's story and give the N the punishment he/she deserves.
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Like I remember from the time I was a member of the Never Good Enough forum. A number of times somebody would become a member or already be a member for a while and this person started to criticize or even verbally attack others on the forum. It was very, very hard to know if this person was terribly traumatized/burned out/depressed and needed a lot of understanding and support or if this person was just being a bully and actually an N. Every time such a thing happened it caused a lot of turmoil and different opinions and interpretations on how to proceed with such a person and wheather or not the person was an N.
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I think our intuition is the key on detecting N's. I've made an early judgement on people and I'm usually right. We can go through the motions of giving people the benefit of the doubt just to be sure. I don't know about you guys, but I can sniff an N a mile away. I usually keep clear of N's in my personal life.... I let my friendships develop over time. An N can't fake normal for long. Anyways...... I think it's all about listening to our red flags.
& there is a store called the Spy Shop.... If you are ever in San Francisco it's located in Fishermans Warf. There are all sorts of harmless, but uncomfortable tricks you can play on people out there!! I stumbled upon this place and I just got lost in the different possiblities......I'm not a cruel person, so I'm a little embarassed..... But it's therapeutic;)
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Well - I think Mud's got the right idea.
The specific gap in help, support & resources is of a legal nature.
And knowing WHEN one needs to try to do what, to protect oneself. No one wants to feel like they're "crying wolf" to authorities and because of the he said/she said nature of most of the legal disagreements (and risk of having one's story discounted & minimized) and the subjective nature of what constitutes danger to any specific judge and the terror of not being believed...
... I think a lot of people wait too long to start documenting things, building evidence, reporting problems - taking action. Just like there are now tables of "symptoms" for teachers to recognize the signs of child neglect & abuse... maybe it would help some people recognize earlier, that they are in a situation where they need help and to start taking appropriate actions to protect themselves, legally too.
I'm seeing "building a file of evidence" as being an often overlooked tool to help people later - even in the area of being believed. I wish I knew what kind of evidence.
Mud?
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edit in PS: wasn't it Cat's Paw who was fighting an N in court - and studying to be a lawyer, too?
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On M02's thread, Gavin de Becker...
when he was on the show, he talked about something (The Gift of Fear is the book about it) that would help so many victiNs (victims of Ns) people probably more than the after-the-damage things you mention here. Not that after-the-fact isn't a good thing, but in so many cases, justice delayed is justice denied.
I'll start another on that. And this is interesting too.
Thanks, Seastorm. Got me thinking again.
love,
Hops
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How come all people applying for top public jobs - politicians, police chiefs, hospital Chief Execs etc etc - aren't subjected to psych evals?
Who evaluates the evaluators?
mud
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Narcissists running things is certainly like ducks taking to water. In this case however, it is dicks taking to water. Ha ha ha.
Of course Ns like to run things and the values in out culture support this. This may be the popular way to do things and the quick way to do things but it is reaping disastrous consequences. These people are dangerous. Look at the financial empire and how many people are "collateral damage". The same thing happens in schools, hospitals, mental health clinics ... It is everywhere. And it is not good.
There are ways to get things done and to work in groups where mountains can be moved and the workers are not led by Ns or psychopaths. It is like an epidemic of crassness in our society. I think of the warmth and enthusiasm of people starting off their careers only to realize that they wont even be able to do their job unless they conform to some crazy system invented by an N to make themselves look good.
As for who chooses these creeps. People who are just like them. Systems seem to live for perpetuating themselves.
I dont want to be the thought police or some creature out of Farenheit 51 where people get the sniff test to see if they are measuring up but I guess in the wrong hands smelling pheromones could be dangerous. It is all context. I come from a place where it seems like a good idea. At least some more research into what makes an N woud be good. Then a few articles on identifying them by some way. On the other hand maybe we already have the ability but dont use it.
That guy who was on Oprah has 48 questions on his website for looking at whether one is in a relationship that could become dangerous. They are extremely interesting questions and brutally frank.
As for listening devices etc. I think they are a good idea. Wish I had been a lot more inquisitive and followed through with my intuition that things were not adding up.
There could be checklists for stuff like that. Like how safe are you with your partner financially? Does he insist on controlling the bank account. Do you wonder where the money is going? Things like that.
Also there could be a checklist for inappropriate behaviour with children or other women.
Of course, there needs to be one for men too.
Sea storm
Sea storm
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There is just no poetic justice with Ns. Probably there will be no justice. Better to escape with the shirt on your back and get the hell out of there.
The best to be hoped for is to find someone to understand and care about what happened. This is really hard to do.