Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Wildflower on October 27, 2004, 12:49:22 AM
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My thoughts are jumbled at the moment, and I apologize that I have to make this post so personal, but sometimes that's still the only way I know how to communicate what I'm trying to say.
I just came back tonight after being away for a few days. I was away because talking here with people helped me start some very big and long-awaited healing. It's not the first time this board has helped me in this way, either. While I was away, I was looking at the world through new eyes - and one step closer, I felt, to health.
One of the biggest obstacles I face is that I had to survive my parents, and in order to do so, I became a person I hated. Sometimes this obstacle is so overwhelming to me that I fear I won't be able to pull through after all, that I'll never learn to love myself after all that's happened. That I'll never heal and be someone that others can love.
But the more I learn, the easier it is to battle through the overwhelming times. What I just learned is that part of that self-hatred came from the fact that I was encouraged to hate myself by two N parents and an N grandmother. But part of that self-hatred came from the fact that the person who survived (the shell of me) had to do things that broke my heart. Things I was ashamed of. But I was just a child trying to survive. And people saw me and reacted to me. People with their own problems in the world. Those problems prevented them from recognizing how much trouble and pain I was in when I was a child, and their hurtful actions drove me completely inside myself. Their actions confirmed my fears that my parents were right about how horrible I was. I belonged nowhere in the world. Not in my own home, not in the world outside.
Am I alone in feeling this way? Was I an extreme case? Does no one else here feel so intensely the pain of having to become someone they weren't because of the life they were given?
Am I alone in trying to shed layer after layer of survival mechanisms that just don't make any sense now that I'm away from my parents? Mechanisms like keeping everyone at bay? Mechanisms like looking for problems in everything so that I can run at the first sign of danger - so that I wont be cornered into fighting?
The thing is, I don't think I'm alone. Not anymore. I keep seeing others here speaking through their survival mechanisms. Maybe my view is distorted?
So, my point. I came back here to talk to some friends who have listened to me more than some of my best real-world friends, and in some ways I wish my parents had. I consider them friends because they have helped me so much.
But we all have our strengths and weaknesses here, right? We're not all compatible. Sometimes my buttons get pushed here, but I think that's natural. I think that's natural not just because people are different, but because people here in particular have had to learn some tough life lessons, and if they're able to talk here, to find their voice through all the hell, then maybe there'll be one more person who's no longer speaking through survival mechanisms.
There are bound to be some N-ish behaviors here, right? Or am I an N trying to justify my own N-ish behavior picked up from my parents? Am I just trying to make a case for myself because I'm so far damaged there's no hope?
But if I'm right, how are we going to deal with it? By sniping at people here who are trying to get help in whatever way they can? By criticizing the ways in which others interact here?
I'm so depressed by what I've read here tonight.
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower -
I have been away for a while, dealing with some personal stuff that's going on. I saw your name and wanted to read what you had to say in this thread. I was deeply touched by it. I can totally relate to how you have felt about yourself in the past. I have hated myself at different stages of my life / healing. It made me cry when you really explained WHY we hate ourselves sometimes. I never thought of it that deeply before but it is so true. :cry: We were merely in survival mode trying to make it day by day. And unfortunately, as you so dearly pointed out, due to our past learned behaviors (and the behaviors learned of the people we interact with) it is hard to understand where we're coming from sometimes and see that we are all doing the best we can at the moment. Everyone has a gift to offer us if we could just keep our defenses down long enough to accept it. I have also found this board to be a Godsend in my healing process - I came here unaware of what I was beginning to feel regarding my parents and I learn more about myself - and how I fit into this world - every time I visit. I haven't had a chance to catch up on my favorite threads, but from the looks of the last few posts I don't think I'll even bother. Maybe I'll just start fresh with this one and keep myself in a happier state of mind. :lol:
Hugs to you Wildflower. I have truly been touched by your vulnerability and caring heart. Thanks for helping me (and others) to grow. I hope that people will read this message and really think about it.
Love, Michelle
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Thank you so much for your post, Michelle :D. I really appreciated it. It's good to see you back, too!
(((Michelle))))
WF
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One of the biggest obstacles I face is that I had to survive my parents, and in order to do so, I became a person I hated. Sometimes this obstacle is so overwhelming to me that I fear I won't be able to pull through after all, that I'll never learn to love myself after all that's happened. That I'll never heal and be someone that others can love.
Honestly I believe that a far larger percentage of people than anyone can imagine are affected this way. The difference between the majority of them and us is that we are becoming aware of it. Most are operating as they were programmed with no idea why.
I truly believe that we are all born pure love. If our parents had received unconditional love they would have had it to give to us. Since they didn't, they could not, and now we must learn to love ourselves.
"I belonged nowhere in the world. Not in my own home, not in the world outside."
When a child has no safe place to call their own how else could they feel?
"Am I alone in feeling this way? Was I an extreme case? Does no one else here feel so intensely the pain of having to become someone they weren't because of the life they were given?"
No. And the more aware you become of having done the very things your parents did the deeper the pain may feel.
We must all get to the point that we love ourselves unconditionally and forgive ourselves because everyone - no matter how they behave - is truly doing the best they know how.
You were doing the best you knew how then. If you are aware of it now then you are better than you were.
Mechanisms like keeping everyone at bay?
You are very aware if you realize you keep people at bay. I keep ME at bay, feeling that I am too intense and others can only take me in small quantities.
I prefer to write, and live online, because in writing I KNOW that I have not been unintentionally critical.
Mechanisms like looking for problems in everything so that I can run at the first sign of danger - so that I wont be cornered into fighting?
I only realized after twenty-some years in a career that the reason I was so conscientious and competent (and overworked and taken advantage of) was that I was avoiding criticism at all costs.
When the stress at the company got worse and my Manager complained about my work, I told him I "didn't DO criticism" and if what I did wasn't good enough then "fire me now, because it is already the best I can do, because I ALWAYS do the best I can do".
The thing is, I don't think I'm alone. Not anymore. I keep seeing others here speaking through their survival mechanisms. Maybe my view is distorted?
No. You have much awareness and clarity. The main difference between us and "normal" people is that they are not aware of it yet. Some may never be aware of it.
But we all have our strengths and weaknesses here, right?
This is another symptom of our voicelessness and lack of unconditional love. We feel we must be "perfect" or we're not good enough. There is no perfect. There is no need to do anything to be "good enough". We already ARE.
Sometimes my buttons get pushed here, but I think that's natural.
The buttons are from our issues. You KNOW they're buttons so you can work on not reacting.
There are bound to be some N-ish behaviors here, right? Or am I an N trying to justify my own N-ish behavior picked up from my parents?
Yes, because we are all affected.
Am I just trying to make a case for myself because I'm so far damaged there's no hope?
Now that I'm sure that the person I am with is definitely NPD and damaged beyond hope I see some hope for me. I say this because he REFUSES and honestly seems totally UNABLE to hear anything. Zero empathy. None at all.
He was so abused he is certain that he is always the victim and another is always the perpetrator no matter how abusive he is acting in that moment and no matter how carefully you try to give him what he wants 100% of the time to reduce the abuse.
But if I'm right, how are we going to deal with it?
My hope is that those who recognize and admit when they are acting narcissistic, critical, or selfish and sincerely work on changing can be healed.
Those who insist that they are no part of the problem - that they are the victim even though anyone seeing their behavior knows it is abusive - will not heal.
Could they CHOOSE to heal if they really are NPD? I don't know. It appears not based on all I have tried with him.
I am certain that you cannot have NPD because if you did you wouldn't be aware nor concerned nor trying to change yourself.
Although we may have some narcissistic traits we are still working on I don't believe we are beyond hope nor permanently damaged.
By sniping at people here who are trying to get help in whatever way they can? By criticizing the ways in which others interact here?
I believe that we must all be more tolerant; cease to expect perfection; forgive; strive not to be critical - and all these things just as much for ourselves as for others.
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Hi Wondering :)
I believe that we must all be more tolerant; cease to expect perfection; forgive; strive not to be critical - and all these things just as much for ourselves as for others.
I agree. Can I change it a wee bit? Not 'just as much for ourselves' but firstly and most importantly for ourselves we should try to:
be more tolerant of ourselves,
stop expecting ourselves to be perfect,
to forgive ourselves,
and strive not be critical of ourselves.
Maybe then we can love ourselves. And then we can love others, but not before. I think, yes?
Very good to see you (((Wildflower))) and (((Michelle))) :D
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Can I change it a wee bit? Not 'just as much for ourselves' but firstly and most importantly for ourselves
Yes, first for ourselves. Wayne Dyer's tapes are very helpful and as he often says "we cannot give away what we do not have". We have to love ourselves first, forgive ourselves first, accept ourselves first - before we can give these things to others.
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Wildflower -
I hope you'll continue this discussion. It gives me the guts to look at things in myself that would potentially be "uncomfortable" or shaming otherwise. Thanks for being bold enough to post this stuff. fm
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Hello to you all...
Thank you Wildflower for having the courage to share your thoughts about this. Yes, yes...the survival mechanisms...that is what I am trying to understand more about myself. And yes they were formed to help me through a difficult childhood, but now they are only interfering with my relationships and feeling good about myself. I have found some and learned to rewrite how I respond to those thoughts...but I know there are more that I would like to recognize and deal with.
I would also be interested in more discussion about this.
Take Care,
Lisa
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This is really a good thread (so far, let's hope the hyperactivity doesn't start here too). Wildflower, your words have given me pause to think. I see now that this is true:
"... survive my parents, and in order to do so, I became a person I hated... What I just learned is that part of that self-hatred came from the fact that I was encouraged to hate myself ... But part of that self-hatred came from the fact that the person who survived (the shell of me) had to do things that broke my heart. Things I was ashamed of. But I was just a child trying to survive."
And especially:
"Am I alone in trying to shed layer after layer of survival mechanisms that just don't make any sense now that I'm away from my parents? Mechanisms like keeping everyone at bay? Mechanisms like looking for problems in everything so that I can run at the first sign of danger - so that I wont be cornered into fighting?"
Ah, boy, does that ring true for me. I remember years ago, when I was single, a very good friend of mine said to me: "why do you treat men the way you do?" I was dumbfounded, could not understand what she meant. She said: "you push them into confrontations, it's like you are saying, 'come on, come on, hurt me so I can get rid of you.' " Maybe she was right -- even today I want to keep a distance from most people. I just hate to go through the pain of disappointment and to find out I have been tricked into believing something that wasn't true. I am always suspicious. Well, I have many, many layers of shielding armor, but they are gradually peeling. What really makes me sad is that while they peel, they scrape off some of my real self with them. Yes, more of the real core is revealed, but it's been damaged, much like removing old varnish from a table to get down to the natural wood. When I look back, I think I was quite an innocent and sweet little girl, always willing to please and help others. It still breaks my heart to realize the hatred that was directed to me. Oh, I wish so very, very much that I had had another mother -- that one of those nurses who knew she was a nut job when she refused to hold me or touch me for six days -- I wish one of them had stolen me out the back door and taken me somewhere to a loving home. I am quite certain I would never have been missed.
All these posts are wonderful and help so much. Thank you.
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I didn't really know how to come back here, so I really appreciate all of your replies. I got upset after reading all those harsh words being exchanged. It's not the first time I've felt that way here, either - or even the first time I reacted the way I did. I had to stop and think about why, and I was stuck until I read wondering's post about interrupting others.
Reading those exchanges forced me into a kind of emotional inventory. Keys? Check. Ticket? Check. Passport? Passport? Do I have my passport into the world of healthy human interactions? Are there things I'm still doing and just don't realize it? Yes, sure, but now they're more benign. I hope. Are they? That's what it is. Those words just threw me into deep self-doubt.
I used to interrupt others all the time, too (still do sometimes). It was the only way I get a word in edge-wise with my parents (still is). After years of this, I became very aggressive and dominating in conversations - afraid to let the mic go for fear of never getting it back again. Only, most people never interrupted me the way my parents did. They didn't know the rules of the game I'd learned to play. So I kept talking and talking and talking...I didn't know how to shut myself up - or even have a real conversation. My parents shut me up. Conversation was a battle, not an opportunity to get to know others. I regret the fact that for many years, I did to others what my parents did to me by blabbing endlessly and not really listening to others. But I had to learn their rules in order to live with them. In order to have any chance of being heard.
And keeping people at bay. What if I start hanging out with someone and find out I don't agree with them? Forget the harder scenario involving ending up being around someone mean. How about simply disagreeing with someone? I was never allowed my own opinion...what does it mean to allow others to have theirs? If I allow them their own opinion, does that mean mine is sacrificed? At home it sure did. I literally had no idea how to be different and myself with others. I had no idea they didn't care to turn me into them. I had no idea they were able to like me because I was different from them. All I knew were the battles with my parents - or the ultimate submissiveness. Nothing in between. So I mimicked others. I tried to be like them. Or I bullied them - because I couldn't let them run over me. Sometimes I did this with the same person. It must have been so confusing, even hurtful, to be around me. But I had to learn these extremes because if I were always aggressive, I'd be punished severely all the time. If I never spoke up and fought back (and I mean fought), I wouldn't have had food or school supplies. And I never would have been let out of the house to be with my friends. There were no in betweens at home.
But the mean words. The harsh words. Yeah. I'm really familiar with those. I used to be completely obsessed by the idea that if my parents just knew how much they were hurting me, they would stop. I spent so much energy (energy I could have used to study for school, get my homework done, learn how to get along with the other kids at school), trying to figure out how to get through to them. Sometimes, maybe often, my answer was to hurt them back. Sometimes, the only way to get them to stop hurting me was to hurt them back. But it would have to be quick- before they set up their guard. It'd have to be something so bad that it would break through their barriers. Catch them off guard. So hey, if I happened to get close to someone who wasn't my parents and they hurt me, I had no idea how to handle it other than to retaliate with words that would cut through the thickest of skins. I didn't know that all I had to do was say, "that hurt, please don't do that". If I said those exact words to my parents, one of my parents would go into a rage and the other would talk about how much of a victim she was. That's the worst of it to me. Whether or not I had a choice, whether or not someone else in my shoes would have found better ways to react (isn't that always the question, though? could I have done a better job with them? was it really all my own failing?), I learned to be mean. And manipulative. I had to be manipulative, I know that. I probably even had to be mean. But boy has it been hard to forgive myself for that.
I've said a lot, but these are the three things that jumped into my head when I was thinking about wondering's responses. What did I have to do? What did I do that I hated doing? And for the first time in my life, I'vebeen able ask myself (and start to forgive myself in the process) - why did I have to do it?
What did you guys have to do? What did you hate the most? Did you do some of the same things but for different reasons?
Wildflower
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Wildflower,
I understand exactly what you said.
My survival technics:
1. I will avoid confrontation at all cost unless someone is hurting one of my children. Then momma bear breaks out and I put on the gloves. I cannot stand to be accused of something that I did not do because I lived that all my life. I remember every word I hear because I was always told it didn't happen that way or wasn't said.
2. I was a hyper interrupter. The only way I could speak at home was to interrupt but I paid the price. So I was not allowed to say much. I was told I had nothing worth saying. So when among friends, I had everything to say, but because I was silenced all the time, I wasn't very good at communicating. I laughed at the wrong times, talked too loud, talked too fast, twisted my words around and acted like a complete idiot all of my growing years. It took going to college to learn to speak correctly. Now I listen much more than I speak and if I try to say something and someone interrupts, I shut down. And I usually get my feelings hurt because I do not feel anyone cares about my point of view. Then I tell myself my point of view is stupid, I have no right to speak out.
That is why I love this board. Many of you are probably rolling your eyes at my words but I can't see you to feel hurt. If you choose to respond, I was heard. If you disagree kindly, I feel like an adult. If you accuse me of a wrong doing, I break apart and it may not be pretty. But the end result is that I am not known by anyone here other than by my stories and login name. So the risk is minimal.
3. I do not get close to anyone. I will tell them my life story, put my life in their hands, but only for a short time. I refuse to depend on anyone except H and my kids. I do not like to have anyone do me favors because I owe them. I love to party and when I'm buzzed, I feel comfortable. But then tomorrow comes and I'm scared that someone saw me with my guard down. So I avoid people as much as I can. I enjoy my co-workers but they see the work side of me. I have fun and laugh a lot, but I am respected for my knowledge and it's different than expecting someone to accept you for absolutely no reason.
There were too many years of being told I was useless, stupid, a looser, a failure, a whore, a nuisance. I will never be able to get over it all. I will never get close to anyone again outside of my immediate family and I'm ok with that. How wierd is that?
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"you push them into confrontations, it's like you are saying, 'come on, come on, hurt me so I can get rid of you.' "
Thanks for sharing this, DG. I think I used to do this, too. I'd push the guys I dated more than any of my friends. I think I might have been pushing them to show their colors NOW so that I wouldn't find out later. And if they fought back and hurt me, it was so much easier to slam the castle gates shut.
Ellie, I loved reading your reply. I think you may have had some similar experiences but you've described them somewhat differently. It's made me wonder if I'm still seeing who I was back then through my parent's ultra critical eyes. Maybe I'm still doing the "I wasn't perfect so I was horrible" math?
It's what I was starting to see, maybe, (but I keep forgetting) when I realized that all those people outside of my family were just reacting to me in their own ways. Their reactions weren't necessarily "proof" that I was a horrible person.
I'm not saying I haven't hurt people. But as wondering said
We must all get to the point that we love ourselves unconditionally and forgive ourselves because everyone - no matter how they behave - is truly doing the best they know how.
and
This is another symptom of our voicelessness and lack of unconditional love. We feel we must be "perfect" or we're not good enough. There is no perfect. There is no need to do anything to be "good enough". We already ARE.
We just WERE. And if we look back and see mistakes (which is what children from healthy families are allowed), we STILL did the best we could. And getting better does not mean we used to be BAD.
Wildflower
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2. I was a hyper interrupter.
Aha :idea: Me, too, and I love your explanation. I'm trying to stop that habit. Like you, I was never able to finish a sentence, and still cannot, when I am with my NM - so when I am with normal folks and get the chance to talk, I have noticed that sometimes I get half-way through a thought and just assume someone will interrupt and stop my sentence, and when they don't interrupt me, I sometimes rattle on and on, all the while expecting someone to interrup me and stop me....very interesting, when I think about the big picture.
3. I do not get close to anyone. I will tell them my life story, put my life in their hands, but only for a short time. I refuse to depend on anyone except H
Yup! I find it hard to trust anyone, which makes sense since I have come to know that I cannot trust my NM at all, ever, and I guess that speaks to the core of who I am - If I cannot trust my own mother, then who could I ever trust? I now know she is crazy, but still, if I attempt to trust people, and they somehow hurt me, I flog myself for being so stupid as to trust someone with my heart. Back to my solitude, where I feel safe - only let my dear H get really close. It even was a huge step to join this group..
Oh, sometimes the damage done by these damn NP's really makes me angry - really angry. So cruel, so self-centred, so destructive.
Damn them all. :evil:
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Wildflower,
I too have presently been trying to make heads or tails of the utter havoc my N parent brought upon my family. I'll refer you to another post where I went into a bit of detail of what a mess my PSYCHO mother has brought upon my own family.
http://httphttp://voicelessness.com/disc3/viewtopic.php?t=912://voicelessness.com/disc3/viewtopic.php?t=574
http://
Since all this has errupted I decided I wanted to get more involved within my religion. I felt I needed to get closer to G-d in any way I could to try to possibly figure out why this happened for one, but it turned into something so much more valuable. Don't get the wrong idea that I'm some kind of "holy roler". I grew up in a very non-observant jewish household. Since childhood I always was aware of an inner spiritual connection to my religion. I always has brought me happiness and peace. Ironically I ended up not marrying within my religion, which is where my mother's initial evilness stems from. She hates my husband soley on this factor alone. I don't feel it's appropriate to go off on a tangent of the ins and outs of this mess. However, I will tell you that my husband is truely is a good man. Nevermind him as a husband, he's just simply been blessed with a good heart/soul/spirit. Nmom hasn't allowed herself to see any further than her initial complaint. Oh well...her loss.
The point I am taking forever to get to is this:
For you to have enough introspect to notice what you may consider areas you need to work on...is a total "blessing". More often than not, people go through their entire lives no ever looking "in" to see what is probably the bigger picture.
I find it absolutely incredible that after so many of us here have gone through so much crap, hurt in such scarring ways, we are aware and seeking out ways to conquer it and feel good again.
I must tell you that our Narcissism is all around us. Every person has some level of it. Look at the way today's society is. We have so much right at our finger tips, and so many messages and things that can be easily obtained in a snap nowadays, that we've turned into a society of "gimmee that instant gratification now". Which "bigger picture" is ultimitaley a self indulgent way of "being". It's not our fault, after all, we are only human.
I went through the begining stages reflecting back on my behavior towards people. I also critically pondered the reasons behind losing many friends over the years. I know that back then...I felt totally justified in whatever my stance was. Looking back, I realized I was probably the one who had a bigger hand in creating riffs through many friendships. I could beat myself up over things like this. But I was much younger, and couldn't possibly have had the introspect I have now to do things any different.
I am at a place now where I have been fortunate enough to find some meaning in the cards that have been dealt to me. For the first time in my entire life I can say..."I am happy". I remember actually feeling "happy" and started to cry uncontrollably for the simple fact that I forgot how "happy" felt. I immediately knew my body was experiencing something that has been forever a stranger to my being. It's all so bitter sweet...it took me severing ties with my parents to bring me to this state. But I must say, I feel like the person I was truely meant to be, has finally been freed. I feel a peace within myself and resolve that I HAD to experience all that my past carried, in order for me to possibly truely appreciate where I am today. For the first time in my life, I feel comfortable in my own skin.
As far as the parents go...who knows. My mother is sick. I haven't reached a place of total forgiveness yet. I think it will take much more time for me to continue to heal. But I know that she no longer has the power to control or affect me like she used to. Why? I won't allow her. This may mean that I could possibly salvage somewhat of relationship with them down the line. Who knows? All is know is this....
It's my turn to have the lights shine on me. I actually have been behaving very much like a N. But I'm due! It's time for me to do what 's good for my soul. I hope you catch my drift...by no means am I behaving evil towards anyone! Just saying...It's long overdue that I spent time being good to myself and feeling good.
I wish you much luck on your own journey Wildflower!
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I know it is difficult getting through all the pain and anger. One thing we must understand is that the "Ns" in our life are the way they are because of how the "Ns" in their life raised them.
They also are doing the best they can. They honestly cannot do any better because they are so damaged that it appears they cannot even ADMIT or SEE what they are doing.
Would anyone really consciously CHOOSE to be the way they are? At some point isn't it best to just forgive them for our own sake? Holding on to resentment and anger only hurts us. Resolution is not possible because they aren't healthy enough to resolve anything.
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One thing I want to point out is the irony of the complaint about interrupting someone being made by a person who is a narcissist. I point this out because I want others to be aware that not all complaints are valid.
Think about when you find yourself interrupting someone while speaking. Does this only happen with certain individuals? If so, are they the ones who talk AT you, feel only what they say is important, or go on and on?
In other words, perhaps THEY are not very good at communicating OR the way they communicate is similar to how the "Ns" in your life did. Maybe their air of superiority irritates you and causes you to be more aggressive or nervous.
In other words, be gentle with yourself. Do not automatically blame yourself. It takes two or more to have a conversation and there is no "perfect" number of words or manner of speaking.
I have one dear friend who lives in Australia and when we discuss ideas we interrupt each other and we ENJOY the way we communicate. She finds slower talkers boring and actually enjoys me just the way I am. That makes her a joy for me to be around.
There is no one "right" way to be.
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Wondering asked:
At some point isn't it best to just forgive them for our own sake? Holding on to resentment and anger only hurts us. Resolution is not possible because they aren't healthy enough to resolve anything.
I think this has been hit upon before here. But I prefer the word acceptance over forgive or resolve. I do accept that my Nmother doesn't love me. I accept that she has and always will say stuff to alienate me. I accept that she will not change ever.
People are usually hurt when expectation doesn't meet reality. You would expect that your parent would love you and not say and do things to hurt you. Accepting that that is indeed the case, it is a big pill to swallow and takes a long process to ...well, process.
I don't see myself forgiving my mother. But I no longer hold on to resentment. I don't know if these people choose this or not. I'm not a pyschologist or mental health person and I don't know if even they are sure about this. All I know is that I must protect myself. Some people regardless of a personality disorder, mental disorder or just evil and destructive are best avoided. That's just reality for me. Sad, but true.
MM
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Whew! That's more like it! Sometimes the depth of honesty here, the bravery, just opens up new places in me.
Wondering said: "Conversation was a battle." Absolutely. I still feel like I'm in a trench with bullets whizzing overhead constantly! If I pop up for air or to make a comment -Zing! so down I go. So my survival strategy has been, duck and cover. And don't bother to say a word. It's just becomes a target.
However, I am changing this. Just on the topic of conversation battles - my 2 daughters used to fight like crazy. Then they learned some techniques at school. One was "I " messages. ie. 'I feel very hurt when you ....." instead of "wtf you are such a !!** So it works even with kids. Geez, I just realized once again how much like a child NM is. At 91 she's still into name calling. Not so long ago she called me a "Limp Wimp." Well, she had a point of course! But that was pre-board. I'm learning to speak clearly, firmly, and in full sentences for the first time! Like Only Me I assume I have a 2 second window. (pops up from trench... "hold your fire!"... pops down again - little Goon's moment there)
Les
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Batten down the hatches.....damn the torpedoes. Geeze, this military talks has got me feisty, Les. :P
MM
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Ellie - not logged in.....
Wondering said:
I know it is difficult getting through all the pain and anger. One thing we must understand is that the "Ns" in our life are the way they are because of how the "Ns" in their life raised them.
They also are doing the best they can. They honestly cannot do any better because they are so damaged that it appears they cannot even ADMIT or SEE what they are doing.
Would anyone really consciously CHOOSE to be the way they are? At some point isn't it best to just forgive them for our own sake? Holding on to resentment and anger only hurts us. Resolution is not possible because they aren't healthy enough to resolve anything.
My only comment to that statement is:
Why should we be expected to forgive them because they suffered pain while growing up when they will not respond to our cries for help?
How can it possibly be that we should be better able to cope with mistreatment than they were? After all they are our parents, they taught us to be mean by their own actions and words. When we tell them over and over again that they are hurting us, and they refuse to listen, why should we consider forgiving them?
Some might say "Because we know what they are..." but they for the most part know what they are also. They are just too high and mighty, mean and angry, selfish and self-absorbed to give a second of themselves to anyone else. They refuse to love anyone for fear it might take some of their love away from them. They want it all!
No, I don't think the excuse can be made that they suffered, therefore we must suffer, then rise above them and forgive them. No, my Nparents want me to suffer way too much for me to consider forgiveness. They hate me because I am alive and they cannot own me.
I will not hate them back and live in their dungeon of self-righteousness. I will make my life better for the sake of those who care about me. I will rise above the pain and suffering they brought into my world. But I will not take any responsibility for their continuing to suffer.
Saying: They also are doing the best they can. They honestly cannot do any better because they are so damaged that it appears they cannot even ADMIT or SEE what they are doing.
to me implies that if we do not forgive them we have the ability to make their life worse.
I'm sorry for debating this issue if it offends anyone but I have evil people in my family. I love to love and be happy and enjoy life. These people have attempted and sometimes succeeded in destroying anything happy in my life.
They do not deserve the moments I spend thinking about how much they disgust me.
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I am thankful that for whatever reason we have realized, become aware, and are capable of change.
I am sorry that those with NPD seem unable to even admit or acknowledge what they are doing and have done and therefore are probably incapable of change.
I do not believe that it will make much difference in THEIR lives what others choose to do or not do because they are so self-absorbed it makes little impact.
I do believe that how WE either do or do not give them our time and attention impacts our OWN lives.
"There but by the grace of God go I..."
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I do believe that how WE either do or do not give them our time and attention impacts our OWN lives.
"There but by the grace of God go I..."
Very bold statement. Very true. And if we have the courage to accept it, very "freeing."
findingme as guest[/quote]
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There are some really great points here, Ellie and wondering.
How can it possibly be that we should be better able to cope with mistreatment than they were?
I completely agree. We're their children, so what's their excuse? If we can get better, so can they. I believe that if my parents had the courage to face themselves and make positive changes in their lives, they'd be able to get better. Yes, it hurts like heck to realize what you've done sometimes, but it just has to be done. I'm convinced that's what keeps an N from healing. They just can't handle facing the pain of what they've done, so they have to construct a reality in which they're above reproach.
I will not hate them back and live in their dungeon of self-righteousness. I will make my life better for the sake of those who care about me. I will rise above the pain and suffering they brought into my world. But I will not take any responsibility for their continuing to suffer.
This is really well put. I think what prevents me from forgiving them is that by doing so, I end up feeling like the parent again. Maybe that's not what forgiveness is about, but I don't think I'll really be able to forgive them until they act like the adults they are and recognize that it's not my job to take care of them or even help them become better people. That was what they were supposed to do for me. I no longer want or expect them to make up for lost time and take care of me because I don't really need them to anymore. I just expect them to take care of themselves and learn to stop treating people in hurtful ways. How can I honestly forgive them if I know they're going to continue their hurtful behavior?
I do not believe that it will make much difference in THEIR lives what others choose to do or not do because they are so self-absorbed it makes little impact.
I do believe that how WE either do or do not give them our time and attention impacts our OWN lives.
This is so true. This is why it's about changing OUR lives instead of theirs. When I'm around them, I try not to change to suit their behavior. It's a lot like the point made on another thread about being firm and clear. I try to treat them as I would any other adult, and if they choose not to respond as adults, there's nothing I can do about that. If at some point they decide to step up and act like adults, then I think it'll be easier for me to move forward with them than if I'd continually fought with them and tried to get through.
Treating them like adults and not really caring if they choose not to take care of themselves is as close as I can get to forgiveness right now. I'd much rather spend my time and energy learning how to be a better adult in my own life.
Wildflower
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I remember talking to Nparents this summer - last conversation we had - and Nmom saying I was acting like a little child because I was admitting the truth for the first time in my life. She was SO unable to handle the truth that her self-defense was to accuse me of acting like a kid and refusing to grow up.
Ironically, I was being adult enough to face the truth and tell thm I didn't want to live a lie anymore. I was admitting to a lifestyle they detest - partying, having fun, laughing, loving life. I always hid everything from them so I would not be in their bad graces. After 45 years I realized I couldn't continue to be one person to them, another to the rest of the world anmd no matter what I did, I would never be in their good graces.
But Nmom was so upset that I had the guts to admit that I lived differently knowing she would be upset, that she just accused me of being the immature one.
When I reminded her I was 45 she said I sure didn't know how to act 45, admitting to smoking and drinking alcohol. Wow, I did this stuff as a teen, and that was immature. Now I'm an adult and old enough to make my own choices and she calls me an immature kid.
What survival mechanisms can one use against this insamity?
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How can one survive their insanity?
By letting them have their 'truth'.
Alcohol, smoking, partying is childish.
Their opinion, their truth.
Is it your truth also???????
If it is then you'll feel bad
If it isn't then you can live the life you want - alcohol, smoking, partying til you're 92.
Are you having fun and living life or are you being childish?
Choose your truth then live your truth. They won't embrace yours and you don't want to embrace theirs. That's the end point of true psychological separation.
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They also are doing the best they can. They honestly cannot do any better because they are so damaged that it appears they cannot even ADMIT or SEE what they are doing.
to me implies that if we do not forgive them we have the ability to make their life worse.
to me it means these people have severe problems and it's futile to keep hoping they will get better. That's all I read into it....
bunny
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When I reminded her I was 45 she said I sure didn't know how to act 45, admitting to smoking and drinking alcohol. Wow, I did this stuff as a teen, and that was immature. Now I'm an adult and old enough to make my own choices and she calls me an immature kid.
What survival mechanisms can one use against this insanity?
My survival mechanism is to give my parents minimal access to my personal life, since they are very disapproving and critical. They know what I want them to know.
bunny
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I completely agree. We're their children, so what's their excuse? If we can get better, so can they.
I don't know what the difference is; only that there appears to be one. Perhaps the world has changed significantly; perhaps we made different decisions earlier and they are further down the road to denial.
Whatever the reason I just feel it is better to accept that we can only change ourselves and to release any expectations attached to the behaviors of others.
I believe that if my parents had the courage to face themselves and make positive changes in their lives, they'd be able to get better.
I agree that if they could "hear" how their behavior affects others and cared they could change. From all I've seen they are too set in their beliefs and refuse any input that contradicts what they WANT to believe.
It is a lot like trying to discuss politics, religion, or any other emotional issue. Many have already decided what they want to believe and will not only not debate but will not even consider any evidence that could affect that belief.
Yes, it hurts like heck to realize what you've done sometimes, but it just has to be done. I'm convinced that's what keeps an N from healing. They just can't handle facing the pain of what they've done, so they have to construct a reality in which they're above reproach.
Are you sure they would feel any pain? From what I can tell because they have no empathy they don't seem to have any remorse or guilt at all. If they did at least some of them would at least stop doing what they're doing even if they would never admit what they had already done.
It appears to me that they are missing a sense of right and wrong for themselves - that they truly believe in their double standard of entitlement and judgement of others.
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I have really been jolted into recognition here about this "hyper-interrupting" business. I have a few obsessive compulsive quirks (like checking the stove 2 or 3 times and the iron and the coffee pot) but nothing that I thought was enough to worry over. I do remember that when I was about 10 I used to have to do things in multiples of 5's -- I remember trying to stop but, if no one was looking, I did it anyway. I stopped doing that though when I learned to type. :lol: Stop laughing, I learned to type and then sometimes I would type in my mind or like a mime with my toes, somehow it felt calming to do that. Okay, now I am a certified fruit cake -- haha. I will worry about it when I go around squinting one eye and yelling "Aargggh maties, I yam wot I yam." Makes no matter -- after what most of us have been through we are lucky to not be drooling in a home somewhere. I have this interruption problem though, and I was totally shocked to see so many postings about it. It's not a "butt-in cause what you have to say is not important" thing -- it's a hurried interjection that feels like I have to hurry and do it before the window of opportunity closes. I don't like it when it happens, but it is a very poweful urge. I also have noticed that others don't seem to mind when I do that, which also surprises me. Maybe I don't do it as often as I think.
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Guest said:
How can one survive their insanity?
By letting them have their 'truth'.
Alcohol, smoking, partying is childish.
Their opinion, their truth.
Is it your truth also???????
If it is then you'll feel bad
If it isn't then you can live the life you want - alcohol, smoking, partying til you're 92.
Are you having fun and living life or are you being childish?
Choose your truth then live your truth. They won't embrace yours and you don't want to embrace theirs. That's the end point of true psychological separation.
Hi guest,
I'm having a hard time with this response. I guess I feel like it was a slap to my face, but I don't think it was meant that way, not sure.
I read this as telling me to stop listening to them. Guess what - that is why I'm here. I have these voices telling me everyday that everything I think and do is wrong! So I'm trying to get the voices out by talking about them. Never have I read so many posts from folks who have experienced like circumstances. Talking about it helps so much.
But reading something that hurtful - assuming we are just to read a response and BINGO - we are HEALED is not the way it happens.
Were you attempting to be sarcastic and hurtful or is this just the way you respond to everyone?
Maybe I phrased the question wrong - how can we survive OUR insanity created by our Ns? The question was more of a statement - we will never get the voices to go away - we just talk about them and learn that they are no longer as damaging as before. Each day gets a little easier to handle.
By the way, this is very painful for me because over the past 6 months I have lost all of my family - mom, dad, and sisters and their kids. There is no relationshpip with the family anymore. I accept this but it is hard to live. I am an orphan - I have a right to talk it out. This is the healing I am experiencing.
I have a right to discuss my hurts regarding my family. They no longer control what comes out of my mouth. They can no longer silence me and hide their destruction!
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Hello Ellie - Thank you for sharing and allowing me to put something right. No, I wasn't being sarcastic or intending any unkindness. Brusque but not unkind. And I'm sorry that it touched a sore place. I wasn't aware that you had lost your mother. You have a lot to deal with.
I really did mean that the way to survival is to not need for them to see life the same way as you do - 'let them keep their truth'. It's about 'letting go'.
I wasn't criticising you for not having done so.
But as I wrote, I realised that maybe you do feel what they feel, that perhaps some part of you thinks that it is childish and so that's why it hit home and why she had an impact on you.
So the next stage is to find out what you really believe. I'm not sure that we can choose what we truly 'believe'. It's just 'there'. So there's a possibility that you may find you do (unfortunately and uncomfortably) believe that it's childish too! That doesn't mean that you have to stop LOL Sounds fun to me! ;-) But allow yourself to be kind to yourself by acknowledging what you really believe.
Well, it was simpler the first time around - gentler the second. Hope it made sense. You don't have to take this on board, tho! Just thoughts to play around with. ;-) {{Ellie}}}
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I got your post the first time and didn't think you were being insensitive at all. I have read posts before and seen something and then reread them and found something entirely different. If you get upset reading a post then maybe it's the best thing to reread the post to garner a different meaning. In any case, all this stuff is a process and we are all at different stages of that process. Ellie, keep posting and working this through and enjoy your partying if that's what makes you happy. George Burns smoked until he passed at 100 plus years of age. And he made us laugh.
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Hi Guest,
Thank you for responding. I understand now what you were saying. It's so hard to correspond wihtout voices - just words - because the meaning gets left out many times.
No one died, I lost them all though. I stood up for myself finally and no longer have a family. Nparents turned evryone in the family against me. Nmom is now lying to my children through correspondence.
I do not believe that I am acting childish. I do not share Nmom's beliefs. I haven't ever, but went along faking it forever just to be accepted. Isn't that sad - we have to fake who we are to our parents to be accepted and loved - the only ones on earth who should love us unconditionally?
The reason I can't forget about it and move on is that Nparents continue to try to destroy my life. They have threatened many things that would tear my life apart. I cannot forget for fear I will not be on guard for the next attack.
It is like fighting a war. A cease-fire is called, but one opponent doesn't want to abide, so they continue to fight but now in a sneaky way. The danger is always present - you will be attacked if not watching.
Nparents vowed to punish me even though I am an adult. They refuse to acknowledge I am an adult. They are dangerous and ruthless. They have made it theie life meaning to somehow turn me back to their side. In one sense they are as evil as the terrorists. They think if they find a way to bring me back into their fantasy world of the perfect family and change me to what they always thought I was, they can then be perfect and have their eternity they want. If they fail, they will not be perfect parents and god will punish them. Ndad said he would rather kill me than let me live a life that he dissaproves of.
I know what I truely believe - I don't live a life wondering who or what I am. I live a life of survival.
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I did not write the post you are referring to; however, I believe you misinterpreted the tone and intention of that person's message. I honestly did not feel anything negative in it toward you and still don't when I reread it.
I see that they are telling you that THEIR truth (your parent's, family's or anyone else's) does not have to be YOUR truth. In other words, allow them to believe whatever they wish and CHOOSE for yourself what YOU want to believe.
Do not allow their judgements to affect your choices. Although we are raised to believe that things are black and white, right or wrong, there is truly no concensus on many things - and even less if you consider other cultures.
Some examples may help:
For some all alcohol is evil; for others it is simply another choice of something to drink with dinner. If you're an alcoholic it may be an issue; if you can take it or leave it, it is simply a beverage.
For some enjoying life and acting happy equate to being childish. For others, those are very positive emotions and behaviors. Some even believe that our purpose in life is to feel JOY. JOY!!!
What something IS depends upon what YOU BELIEVE. Let go of others' judgements and "shoulds" and live your life any way you choose - and be glad of it.
It isn't what happens TO US as much as it is what we think about what happens and how we handle it.
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Hi wondering and guests, I see what guest was saying now.
My point in all of it, including the first posting was that it does not matter what either party believes. If an N is intent on destroying someone, survival technics may be different than when one is simply trying to not have their feelings affected by an Nparents rambling or harsh words.
I refuse to fear Nparents anymore but I am not stupid in believing they have stopped trying to destroy me, just because I told them I no longer fear them.
The concept that I admitted to smoking and drinking were only callouses to their already enraged feelings toward me. They are livid I will not fail in my marriage, in my job, in life so I have to move back and depend on them. To them I am a failure if I do not let them run my life. None of this is childish actions, none of it goes away if I simply accept their truths. The truth is they will always try to destroy my family - no matter what I think, do or feel.
Does anyone else here have such destructive Nparents? Does anyone's Nparents still threaten to beat or kill them, try to have them arrested for cursing or call child protective services and lie so the kids will be taken away even though they are over the age of 30, in the name of a parent's right to punish?
I have considered a restraining order, but that is what they want. They thrive on telling their friends how terrible their daughter is. They want me to write them and tell them I don't want them to contact my kids. I will not do that to fuel them. Sine I cannot talk sanely with them, and H is fed up and does not want to talk about them anymore - my survival technic is finding an outlet to talk about them with others who experienced the same pain.
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Oops, I forgot to log in - Ellie above :oops:
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Yes, MANY Narcissists are intent on destroying others. I've even had an N couple make destroying me their focus off and on for YEARS because I once innocently said something they didn't like.
Many families are even worse than yours. The best thing to do is to move out of range and focus your mind on anything else. NOTHING you will ever do will modify their behavior. You already know that. Stay far away and hope they find other targets.
If you cannot physically move away stop interacting with them. Change your phone number or get caller ID and don't answer. If you answer and it is them hang up. As long as they can get a reaction out of you they'll keep coming back for more. Put them completely out of your life.
Come here and blow off steam and work through the issues. Be considerate of your family and don't dump on them over and over as it can damage your relationships there. Although they would hopefully be empathetic your time with them is better spent in more positive ways.
As much as possible change your focus to what you desire in your life and keep it off everything else.
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Hey Everyone.............this is the first I have read of this thread. Boy, did it bring a lot of emotion out in me. The later posts are so similar to my experiences.....................I still don't drink or smoke or admit to it to my parents. I find it is easier to live two lives......it sucks, doesn't it?
And the interrupting? How about not speaking up? I went to college a little older than usual and I had an arrogant professor. I wouldn't say one thing in his class for fear of being made to look stupid.
And the stopping mid-sentence without finishing a thought? I do that ALL the time! In fact, my kids kind of raz me for never finishing a sentence. Could it be that I was never able to have a conversation with my parents when I was young without being interrupted? I think so. I got a lot of the "don't argue with me, young lady" or "because I said so" or "children should be seen and not heard..............." when I was growing up. Oh, doesn't that ring a bell? "SEEN AND NOT HEARD?" NOT HEARD!!!!!!!!!
And I KNOW my husband had the same thing happen to him. You should hear him. He goes on and on and on and on and on and I cannot get a word in edgewise - I have to jump in with both feet to say a word and he just keeps on talking and talking and talking........................he told me he could never say a word to his parents. His mother chewed him out allllll the time........................now he chews me out (well at least he did until I told him to shut up or I would go to divorce court...........we've been married a little over two years and the first year was a year of real bullying by him!!!!!) :(
And this forgiveness thing? Someone told me that to NOT forgive someone is like drinking poison and then waiting for the other person to die from it. If we don't forgive, the only person it hurts is US. Because resentment and bitterness take hold and wreaks havoc upon our bodies...early death.....cancer....fibromyagia.....etc. NO, we don't have to allow them to continue the abuse, or forget (believe me, we all know there is NO forgetting the abuse........) but we need to let it go.
Have a few drinks, smoke a few cigs, listen to some good music, laugh and have a good time.......................but don't allow it to ruin your life...you know, addictions, etc. Live your reality!!!! Forget those parents. Love, Laugh, Sing, Grow........................we all need each other. Thanks for listening.
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Oh, and one other thing............................I hate myself...............I am fat and ugly!!! Wonder where that one came from?
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I was hoping to get some more input on this topic. When I read about the things that people do to "survive," it just brought up some deep emotion. I wanted someone to give some input on why, perhaps I think of myself as fat and ugly? Could it be an unwritten rule that I cannot look better than my mom? Or cannot be as successful so I let myself gain weight and look all puffy.............and meanwhile my nmom can afford plastic surgery and so at 68 she probably looks better than I do at 45????
Do you suppose I sabotage myself, as I sabotaged my job interview a couple of weeks ago..........came on with such ability and confidence and went to the last interview as a mere shell of my former self???
Kelly
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I was hoping to get some more input on this topic. When I read about the things that people do to "survive," it just brought up some deep emotion. I wanted someone to give some input on why, perhaps I think of myself as fat and ugly? Could it be an unwritten rule that I cannot look better than my mom? Or cannot be as successful so I let myself gain weight and look all puffy.............and meanwhile my nmom can afford plastic surgery and so at 68 she probably looks better than I do at 45????
Do you suppose I sabotage myself, as I sabotaged my job interview a couple of weeks ago..........came on with such ability and confidence and went to the last interview as a mere shell of my former self???
Kelly
Kelly! I have been giving some consideration to your post- I couldn't tell if you wanted input or not. It sounds like you know what, how, and why- now it is for you to find your way out. To start that climb to first be on the same footing as your mom- and then to rise above it. Sometimes the only way out is through. A ways back Bunny voiced that perhaps you might stay at your mom's business and work your issuses out from there. That was how I felt. You can work for Ns anywhere. It has it's pros and cons whether you are related or not.
Although your mother works hard at keeping you in your (her) place - if you can see that she does that, it is because you also can see and sense your own value. We find oursleves offended at belittlement because in reality we do hold ourselves in higher esteem. The greater you come to feel about yourself , the lesser you can abide someone elses negation of you.
I am just here highlighting what you already know- standing by as your cheerleader: I suspect you know your way out of the woods...what needs to be done. You know your job issues, ; you see the family dynamics: You see what you want from and for your familiy : and now you see how she has physically affected you, and held you as her captive. You have a lot accumulated to work with.
Go forward and face her- your mother- give to yourself what she won't. Push some of her stuff back onto her own plate. Do it slow and careful. Of course she is going to squawk! She has held you in place forever this way! What you most dread- aim for it. It will get easier.
Fight for yourself! Being your best doesn't take away from anyone else. That is their problem if their insecure little self thinks that way.
I felt quite passionate writing all that...Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote:
Being your best doesn't take away from anyone else.
I like that so much, I've written it in my notebook where I keep a list of thoughts that help me when I'm going through a rough patch.
Whenever I spend time with my NMom (or on the phone) I'm on edge the whole time; I'm always having to put myself down and belittle any of my achievements, so that I don't rise even a tiny bit above her. This, in the face of always being asked for a full report of what I've done, how's work, etc. Be good, but not too good! The over-weight thing is an issue for me too.
It's like walking on a tight-rope, with no safety net and a pit of snakes beneath you, trying to tread the fine line of being 'perfect' enough for them, but not any better than them! 'Give me your achievemnts to wallow in, but don't be better than me.' I was a lost cause from the moment I was born, because I had a cleft lip. This still gets brought up from time to time, with tears and wailing about how awful she felt and that she's never really got over it. Hey! Who's the one living with a scar here?!
And, oh boy, the issues I have with emotion! That was something else that was tightly controlled by the NMom. I can stil hear and see her now, bearing down on me with a face like fury, shouting "Don't get angry!" :shock:
Sorry, I'm venting rage again now, and making this all about me! I'm still new to this; only found out about NPD less than a year ago. I've a lot to work through.
And yet, when I read people's posts on this board, I can see that in some little bits of my life, I am making headway. I am blessed with a wonderful, loving and patient H, who has been so supportive, and now that we finally can put a name to the problem with NMum, he is great at helping me to keep things in perspective. Even a simple little remark from him can ease the pain, like, "Let it go; don't take it personally; remember she's N; she can't see beyond the end of her own nose!" Understanding, knowledge and support from people who know what you're up against are so powerful in the healing process. It gives me hope.
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Kelly here. Those last two posts are exactly what I was looking for! EXACTLY!! Phoenix, you are right.................I already know the answers. Maybe I just need the affirmation. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I know what I need to do to be my best self..........slim, upbeat, etc. But my nmom has made sure that she has beaten my self-esteem down for so many years that I buy into the BS.
No, not really. I don't think she set out to push me down. I honestly think her motivation was to manipulate (even though she would never see it as manipulation) me into being a good, Christian person. Because she did not approve of my choices (drinking, smoking, carrying on for many, many years....) she would not give me her approval. Without her approval, my sense of self-worth went down and I suppose I acted out by being worse and worse.......almost self destructive. So now I am 45 years old and I don't "deserve" to be what I used to be. When I was young I was tall and thin and outgoing. Sophomore class president, cheerleader, and a lot more. But one event in my life made me not trust those in authority and then not trust my nmom for not sticking up for me.
Meanwhile, she was nurturing her own psyche and she rose to greatness in business.
Well, since then she has been so self-involved and so intent on making me into a "mini-me" of her...................I have felt so invalidated.
So why do I feel so fat and ugly? Because that is who I should be. I cannot be anything more than the woman who has made so many bad decisions in my life that I don't deserve to be that young, vivacious woman anymore! But that, too, is BS. I DO deserve it. And my self worth is not contingent upon my mother's approval of me.
I admit, I have become a bitter, caustic person - mostly to my mom. Anything she says to me is magnified to the extent that I easily blow up!
Time to recapture that sense of worth. That optimism about the future. That thin, outgoing woman who is only half way through life! Time to look up and be content with who I am.
Thank you Av and Phoenix for your input. I really appreciate it! I WILL do well!!