Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: river on May 06, 2010, 04:24:07 PM
-
Has anyone come accross these guys?
The website is 'narcissim cured'. They're a couple and they tell the story of how he recovered from N.ism and her role in it.
IMO they contribute some good common sense, sound attitudes for people in couples troubled by N. ism. I think good stuff can be taken from thier work, tho it may not apply to the really heavy duty N.ism.
Any one else checked this out? ~ I think its worth knowing about and valuable.
-
Heres the link:
http://www.narcissismhelp.com/Narcissism.html
-
I find these guys kind of creepy. He has died eyebrows and hair I think and is reading off his message like an automaton. They are using music and really marketing their message by saying the right things. For me the message rings hollow.
I know that women who are with Ns are desperate for the N to change. Run for the nearest DSM and it tells you clearly that this is a behaviour disorder and a cluster of disorders and they don't change.
I find it worrisome that this couple says that he changed and that they can help others change. This costs money I am sure.
I did not want to rain on your parade, but this is my opinion. You sounded hopeful about this so I didn't reply right away.
Sea storm
-
Yeah, good common sense and attitude. And yes in not applying to the N's that refuse to admit imperfection.
Steve refers to himself as "I used to be one".
The word 'cured' stings me. Some things cannot be 'cured'. It's 'managed'. I do think he's not 'cured', but that they do try to 'manage' his narcissism (does he admit anywhere that he works on this, or is she responsible for all the work?). I think she has to work very very hard with and on and for him on a daily basis. That's her choice and decision, and has to made individually by each person in each case.
The part of me that is skeptical says that I think one possible angle in this is it could be to keep her staying with him, to keep him from 'getting worse' - that if she left, he'd just continue on and be miserable without her.
This would mean that she's still feeding him - perhaps it's just a different one way street that's just less abusive. I don’t know.
-
Hmmm.
I dont know about "cured" either. But I do think that they can be managed. I think one of the things that we need to do is to learn how to manage N's. They are everywhere. We cant push the pause button on life while we try to decide if an N is an N. I think we have to handle N behavior from a position of our own strength. If its just stray N behavior (everyone has some) then you are simply managing. If there is so much N behavior that you spend all your time managing, then you may be dealing with a full blown N. And everyone has to decide how much of their energy they want to put into that enterprise.
That energy is energy that won't go into creating a work of art, a beautiful meal, a good nights sleep, an evening with friends, and day working in the garden. At some point, you get tired of dealing with the N behavior. At that point, you either lie down and let them run all over you, or you get on with your life without spending so much energy managing them.
Maybe she has decided that he is worth the effort to stay vigilant, keep her boundaries up, etc. Me, I'm not interested.
CB
-
Thanks for these replies, I find them very interesting, and much better than no response.
Seastorm said:
I find these guys kind of creepy. He has died eyebrows and hair I think and is reading off his message like an automaton. They are using music and really marketing their message by saying the right things. For me the message rings hollow.
I know that women who are with Ns are desperate for the N to change.
......this is a point, it could give false hope. I think that the not rining true may be because just that, they're trying to make a business out of thier story, and it does come out a bit all squeeky clean.
But I find a lot of what they say really useful and insightful.
But I agree, they dont have the total solution, they're not perfect, for example, they seem to be sort of vilify Sam Vaknin. I think it would be better if they recognised there were different types of N.s, like Sam writes about a very different level of problem than Steve Cooper is, and why throw anything out, when surely it all contributes to understanding, Sam was my first port of call in the whole long discovery about the disorders, so I appreciate him.
I believe of course N.ism can be cured, as can most emotional problems ~ IF they have genuine treatment, and if they have enough incentive to really get well.
-
The trouble is that about the last person to go to a counselor would be an N. And then they use what they learn to be more manipulative rather than looking within.
I no longer think that with some counseling the N can be set right. This is a life long thing and has to do with neurochemistry as well as emotional well being. Also, some things that happen during attachment cant be undone. The effort it would take would be monumental. Like a team of professionals working around the clock for a year. Besides, they dont want to change. We want them to change but we are the ones suffering. The lack of conscience seems to be the real sticking point where there is no chance of movement.
Better to work on oneself and find out how to identify these characters and steer clear of being taken for everything you've got. I mean money, health, self esteem, joy, direction, faith all gone if you stay hooked up with these Ns. There are ways to minimize the damage but I keep forgetting who I am dealing with and they win again. Maybe you can learn the tactics for dealing with them. One of the things to be learned is having very, very solid boundaries and knowing what they are. For instance, one lie ok, two lies oh-oh, three lies bye-bye.
Sometimes no replies is because it is hard to know what to say.
Sea storm
-
I think you are as likely to cure N's with therapy as to cure schizophrenia with therapy. At least schizophrenia can be managed with drugs. There is no drug that produces empathy. I agree with those researchers who see it as a brain disorder, like right brain insufficiency.
-
I believe this is a strategy by Kim and Steve to market themselves, to make money. Kim's first step is to ask us to subscribe to her newsletter. Her comments about how everyone told her to leave Steve but she thought that was wrong only fuels the pain people in these relationships have. She is either being manipulated by him or she is just as much of an N as he is.
So she agreed she was being hurt. But evidentally hung in there. Why? For the love? What love? Someone is hurting you. That's okay? Because if you only had enough wisdom, understanding, didn't antagonize them, understood them, then the relationship can be saved? That is not a relationship!
"The physical abuse is not always perpetrated by the narcissist either.It is normal to become very angry with someone who manipulates and puts you down." If someone manipulates and puts me down, in my own home, on a daily basis, you can bet I am going to be angry. But then I am evil and not willing to work on the relationship if I have finally had enough abuse?
Sorry, these guys - both of them - made me feel bad about myself. Just reading her comments made me very sad. When reading "Steve's site" I come down to the bottom - low and behold - it is Kim talking. Where are Steve's REAL emotions? What does Steve think about KIM? I heard all about Kim, but don't know anything about Steve other than he is an N.
I'm sorry to be so blunt. That's how I took the whole thing.
-
Logy
or she is just as much of an N as he is.
Agreed. This is a pair to be avoided.
-
Me too.
I don't want to say that no N can have an epiphany or awakening or learn what Nism or Ntraits are in order to be more aware of them. Or decide to become less damaging people. I have a couple N friends who have lived a while and thought a lot about their damaged relationships. They seem to have a genuine spirituality that they work on. But I still would never become vulnerable to either of them, so I guess that's the real answer. I'm sixty, and I've only figured that out in recent years. Meanwhile, the damage goes on. Most people aren't sixty, and there are children...
The basic personality structure of folks, I think, is about 50-50 genetic/environment. Our culture is environment and we could change that in a lot of ways. There could be a culture that absolutely would not TOLERATE Nbehavior, so even if someone appeared genetically wired to trend that way, their expression of Nism would be suppressed just as we're taught to "not hit" as toddlers or to poop in the proper place.
I'm uncomfortable with that web site because it smacks of exploiting people's pain, and seems pretty boastful, and I think if they want to earn money off their "specialness" they should do it in a more straightforward way. Write a memoir, sell the memoir, create a profitable blog. But don't promise "CURE". That's an irresponsible and I think cruel word and big red flag about them. In medicine for example, they say always be wary of people who tell you they have discovered a super-special amazing secret cure that nobody else agrees with or that no-one credentialed or learned has ever corroborated--and the only evidence they have is anecdotal, testimonial, or mysterious. I also don't really hear much compassion from Kim, just eagerness to impress, really. If compassion isn't pouring out like a wave, I ain't inviting anybody in that deep to "fix my marriage". (If I were suffering in marriage.) And I ain't looking for no guru, ever.
Out of control Nism is like emotional battery. With criminals who do physical battery, one locks them up. One also should (and our culture doesn't) work to rehabilitate them (meaning find out why a young man grows up violent, for example) and CHANGE THE CULTURE (environment, education) that creates them. You can't lock up Nism so you have to teach all children an outstanding sense of self (Richard's whole concept of "voice") and healthy boundaries so we don't raise rabbits who get paralysed by the glance or sound or seductions of an N.
I think to save our species we need to save children, period. There are so many obstacles. We can't be "N-police" and go sweeping toddlers out of homes where sick psyches rule. But we can advocate intensely for strong very early childhood education and opportunity. We're doing that in my town, in a social justice thing...named our highest priority as pre-K interventions. If tiny kids (2, 3, 4) can be exposed to loving attention and learning, even if they unfortunately aren't offered it at home...their innate intelligence and drive to thrive can carry them through some very tough childhoods and many many more of themwill turn out to be excellent productive adults with a large chance of breaking generational cycles of poverty and abuse.
Well, it's Sunday. So hope I'm allowed one sermon!
hugs
Hops
-
Im quite shocked by the strength of 'anti' response from everyone. Its not that what everyone has said is wrong, theres lots of truth in each post.
Of course N.s can be healed, nothing/ no-one should be written off. Thats my belief.
But what happens, as people have shared is that often the T doesnt undertand, gets manipulated etc, and it ends up the N. just has a whole new paraphenalia to act out with and things get that bit more crazy making ~ as has been said, this it true.
But that still doesnt take away from that they have some helpful things to offer that make sense to me and could help those in the sort of situation they were in. Theres different degrees of N.lishness.
Sure, its glitzy and slick, and is aimed at making money, (but so do toothpaste manufacturers make money). And yes, theres quite a bit of Nishness about them, but it seems they improved thier situations hugely, so why would what they found not be useful to add to the possibilities of life, testing out truth, experimenting, is part of being human. Its a shame to cause false hope, but its also a shame to cause despair if its unnecassary . They probably should do more to alert people to that some situations can be changed and some cant, and are really dangerous/ crazy-making.
I'm obviously very on my own here for saying this, but its what seems true to me.
-
Hey River,
It is excellent that you say what you think. You have gotten me going and thinking about things. Like how judgemental I can be.
Narcissism has an upside that gives us creativity and lots of art etc. There is that pretty important thing missing in them though and that cannot be underestimated. That is conscience. It is not there and will not be there. This is documented with MRIs.
So if you are a loving guppy and swim with the sharks, you will get eaten.
I am wondering why you want to believe that they are wounded and need help? Do you have one in your life? There is nothing that would get through to me when I was with my exN. I was madly in love. I did not even have a clue what was happening until it was over. I have had a few episodes where I thought " Oh I can stick my hand in the fire and talk to him, if I pull my hand out really fast and remain strong". These were dismal failures and only gave the N ammunition and information to hurt me more.
This is not good news. It is heart breaking, soul destroying, dream shattering news that leaves you like a wounded animal who has been mauled by a beautiful cheetah. Just before they eat you alive, they have the most tender look of all in their eyes. But they get you.
Sea storm
-
One of the (among the many) things that is great about this site is that we can all come together and offer a variety of thoughts and opinions, as well as ourselves. And we’re allowed to. Thank you Dr. Grossman, river, and everyone, for your thoughts.
My feelings and thoughts change with time, one day will be different from the next as I learn and grow. I'm so very grateful to be here learning and growing.
Back when, with the troubles with my first NH (died), I would have done anything to stay with him. It wasn't until some truths came out at the funeral that my eyes were starting to open for the first time in my life.
If - i were to meet up with him now, him being who he was then, me being who i am now, knowing what I know now - what would i do? I think I would try to communicate with him, try to get him to feel, understand. I'm stronger now, and probably could handle him - and be 14 years older than him. Would he like it? Probably not! How long would my attempts last? In what capacity?
I will never know.
It keeps being said that it's a spectrum disorder. Heck, I know I've done some narcissistic things in my lifetime. I am sure that there are those N's that can get better; and that there are some that are truly evil and are a danger to others and will never stop, no matter what intervention.
-
You know, River. How many times have we seen threads about someone having conflicts with their therapist? Many. So what I relate to, what you relate to, what someone relates to, different. Whatever helps someone to navigate throught their issues and come out a stronger, happier person, is what they need. If you relate to something and I don't, good for you. You found something that helps you grow. That's a good thing.
I remember being in 8th grade and we were asked to bring in a record (vinyl, 33rpm - old school) that meant something to us. I shared a record. Nobody understood and I was embarrassed.
So take what everyone says as their personal experience. Your experience belongs to you and is just as valuable as anyone elses.
Logy
-
Hi all,
I do think there is some valuable info on their website but trying to convince you to buy their ebooks while they admit to not being experts, I think is very wrong.
It's like a DONM writing a memoir then sell it online and promote it as expert, just because she happened to have first hand experience with Ns but who is not medically qualified to advice on how to deal with Ns.
I think that Ns DO seek therapy but judging from my own NM, it's for such reasons as to learn how to be even more manipulative. She went to therapy after sheer frustration because I wasn't doing what I was told. She even paid for my therapy once and instructed the therapist to 'transform me to a good and obedient child' (I was 25 back then and she felt really betrayed that the therapist didn't do as she was told).
Although I do think as said that they have some useful information, however they do give the wrong message. On one hand they claim 'it's not your fault', on the other they say 'it's wrong to abandon a relationship with an N, which is quite contradictory. IMO it's like telling a DONM 'it's not enough what you've already been through but although it's not your fault that you went and picked an N for a life partner, don't give up on them because you should stick around and make things work'. It sounds all for the benefit of the N.
-
Hi Persephone, Wait a minute, this is not what I hear them saying:
'it's wrong to abandon a relationship with an N, which is quite contradictory. IMO it's like telling a DONM 'it's not enough what you've already been through but although it's not your fault that you went and picked an N for a life partner, don't give up on them because you should stick around and make things work'. It sounds all for the benefit of the N.
........... that would be rediculous,.... I wonder how you got that impression?
.......... they're saying you dont necassarily have to.. .... there are some things you can do instead in some situations, but they do stress that you have to work this one out for yourself.
Hi Kat,
That, what you shared must have been an incrediblt difficult, confusing thing to handle!
Seastorm,
Narcissism has an upside that gives us creativity and lots of art etc. There is that pretty important thing missing in them though and that cannot be underestimated. That is conscience.
I think you hit the nail on the head, its conscience thats missing. I would go even further tho, I dont think N creativity, if its in the service of N.ism is worth anything, like one can be creatively cruel, cruelty usually is I'd say. What I have picked up is like this: theres the real self and the false self, underneath all the narcissitic false self is the impaired, shrivelled undeveloped real self that has been hidden and negelectd....
-
What I understand as N recovery is that the false self breaks down totally, and the real self breaks through. (by the way, I get this concept from reading J.Masterson) I think the N has to be really up against it to get to willingness.
seastorm said:
I am wondering why you want to believe that they are wounded and need help? Do you have one in your life?
... thanks for asking, no, actually Ive been alone for ages. Why do I find this important? good question............
It is heart breaking, soul destroying, dream shattering news that leaves you like a wounded animal who has been mauled by a beautiful cheetah. Just before they eat you alive, they have the most tender look of all in their eyes. But they get you.
........ you're doing it again, I find your writing quite fuse-blowing lol. I remember describing my own inexorable attraction to Ns as being a 'cross-wired gazelle, staggering up to a lion, with every nerve telling her the danger, but still compelled to seek love, and yet knowing what will happen. Those were crazy torn-apart internally times for me. How well am I recovered? I dont know, but something is certainly different, those cross-wires can engage, but I know more about unhooking again now, thank God.
thanks for all the responses..... its an interesting discussion for me, as someone said, all learing.
-
Thank you river, it was difficult and confusing. I went into shock for a long time, and took even longer to process it. I stayed away from getting close to anyone for 12 years. Many thick walls.
My first NH is what draws me to this post. Like I said, if he were who he was then – would I attempt? I’d be drawn to.
I didn’t have any of the N information back then. But came to some conclusions: that he had a very fragile self esteem. He would have to be built up while acknowledging imperfection and failure. IMO, Failure is a huge fear to N’s. They don’t understand that it doesn’t mean the end of the world. So they cannot admit a mistake, that it’s ok.
But with time and age, people do learn new skills. N’s can learn new treachery and manipulative ways. They become deeper into the abyss. My Nboss at work and my now DH’s exNwife are what come to my mind (in 40’s). Nboss reads therapy books, emotional intelligence books – but this is only for him to learn the right words to say at the right time. It has no affect on him other than as a tool for him to use. They are truly treacherous, punishing people. They know how and when and who. It’s actually frightening to think of what they are capable of. I’ve witnessed enough of their damage to know this.
I’m learning skills too, starting learning how to stand up for myself.
I’ve also learned that with these N’s, standing up to them means discreet punishment later. Oh well, live and learn as they say.
I know they are way too far gone to be salvaged by intervention, including divorce, if anything. They’ve done too much damage directly and indirectly to me. They also deem me to be beneath them, and would never allow even the thought of me teaching them something. Are they becoming dead inside? What happens with another 20 years?
I think they will never understand or know true happiness and touching moments, connections. They only have moments of euphoria that always go away and leave them seeking more.
-
Hi river,
I know that my statement sounds a little bold but I really do think they give the wrong message especially with the supernanny example. It's good to give people hope but I think they took it up an - unrealistic - notch.
P
-
Didn't have time to go the site but keying off of some things that have been said I think it's imperative to distinguish between someone with a full blown personality disorder and someone who merely has excessive tendencies or traits.
The latter can certainly be managed or so modify their behavior that they might be considered "cured" although if they didn't have a disorder in the first place it's hard to say what they're being cured of.
However the former, in essentially everything I have read, are neither particularly susceptible to management nor a cure. Neither therapy nor drugs nor self help seems effective.
There are certainly some who are on the illdefined cusp of just tending to be selfish jerks and those who are truly disordered and it's impossible to know who of that number can be helped.
But it seems to me to be evading reality to entertain the notion that, barring some divine miracle, a profoundly disordered narcissist is likely to be healed or even meaningfully modify his or her behavior.
mud