Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 29, 2004, 05:36:07 PM
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I don't really know what to write here - I just notice that what often prompts me to write is 'indignation'. Indignation that somebody should feel free to call someone else mean names. Indignation that somebody thinks they have the right to push others out. And indignation makes me want to do the same back.
Is indignation a healthy thing - or something that's useless?
Is there a difference between 'indignation' and 'moral indignation'. I kinda feel the second one is less 'real'. But indignation certainly comes from the heart - it burns there. And there's fear, too. "What if someone did that to me, too" Even if there's no link between me and the victim of the hurts.
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Well, I just Googled "moral indignation" for fun. And there's some pretty fun stuff that came up. Of course that doesn't help your basic question, but its' fun to ponder the different viewpoints that came up none the less. It might take your mind off all the fussin' and a fightin'.
MM
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I don't really know what to write here - I just notice that what often prompts me to write is 'indignation'. Indignation that somebody should feel free to call someone else mean names. Indignation that somebody thinks they have the right to push others out. And indignation makes me want to do the same back.
I think indignation has some nuances of self-righteousness or superiority. We all feel it sometimes. I would think twice about posting from a feeling of indignation.
Is indignation a healthy thing - or something that's useless?
Acting impulsively out of indignation is usually useless.
bunny
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Good/very thoughtful question to pose in the midst of all of this, guest.
I think indignation is a natural human emotion. I think it's natural to feel it. I think the way we act on it indicates whether it is a useful thing or not, in each separate situation we are in.
Sometimes it may be laced with revenge, or a catharsis in being cruel (blowing off steam/frustration & nothing more), or a result of long standing, deep personal inner wounds being evoked, or something very rightful. I think there are some good reasons to be indignant, and to express it. Again, I think whether it is a "good" or "not so good" thing, all depends on the motivation and the individual circumstance.
The singer Alanis Morisette said something very wise in an interview, that I will always remember. She was talking about her first CD and how angry it was (the lyrics the energy) and how different her latest is.
She said she realized that if we have been alive, we have been hurt and we all have inner indignation/anger inherent, but life quality all depends on how much you choose to access it.
In other words, we have the choice to keep anger so close to the surface and react so quickly and visciously so often, or keep peace more close to the surface, and pick our battles more carefully, so the serious ones are more on the rare side.
I realized in that moment, how much of a choice that I, and others have in our indignation. I think a step human emotional evolution is not having it be such an instinctive gut reaction, and more of something we are aware of and use sparingly.
We'd probably be a lot happier and more effective and productive as a species.
It's by far not an easy change to make though!
BT
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BT, that was a very profound post. Thanks for posting. Choice is something we always have, but people sometimes let momentum take over. You have to stop and make a conscious effort to not have the typical gut reaction.
renee
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So much food for thought here.
Acting impulsively out of indignation is usually useless.
Isn't it though? This happens to me sometimes and I need to try to insert the word "useless" into my psyche at those moments. That may just be the ticket!
Thanks all.
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I think it's also to do with a feeling of shame.
The spectator is just as much in on the act as both the perpetrator and the victim. So gets the shame of both being perpetrator AND victim.
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For me, Indignation is a feeling that wells up when I am treated badly and it is unwarranted, undeserved and especially an affront to my dignity or self-respect.
Today the N in my life criticised me and I said firmly and maybe with an edge of anger and impatience, "I am not going to let you put me down any more. I dont give you the right to say mean things to me."
The N was left speechless, for a while. Enough for me to sit down and begin writing (promises to myself to extricate myself more from them).
Indignation is therefore a healthy emotion, a self affirming emotion.
And if one feels indignant about something terrible happening to someone else, isnt that great... it means we CARE.
For me, moral indignation is more like an emotional reaction that is
more cerebral, more triggered by ideas and values. It is a secondary
reaction to thoughts, rather than an immediate reaction to something
threatening. Although if I caught a rapist in the act and I thought I
might be able to control him physically, I think I would be screaming
indignities at him.
So many ways to look at things.
Judith
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Great thread. Lots of good food for thought. I am in agreement that indignation probably is useless as with shame and guilt. The only part about indignation that I believe might be useful is that it's a step toward finding my voice after withstanding emotional abuse. As long as I don't spew the indignation to others, I am finding that indignation might be a precursor -- or filter, if you will -- to sorting out what I do and don't want in my life.
I just experienced some indignation in the past day when my cycling buddy announced that she isn't taking our annual bike trip this summer. Instead she's opting for her third scuba diving trip with a group of friends she's taken up with...Although she's completely entitled to choosing how she wants to recreate, this newest development is coupled with other circumstances. She returns perhaps 1 of every 3 or 4 phone calls and doesn't seem to have much time for me since I moved away 9 months ago. It seems she has gradually and consistently been distancing herself. I can usually handle the out-of-sight-out-of-mind phenomenon and realize people come in and out of our lives. But we had a close relationship for nearly 5 years and in the midst of the breakup with my fiance, this development has been particularly hurtful.
If I can't lower my expectations and effectively detach emotionally from the seemingly consistent disappointment over this relationship, I am thinking that the indignation may be a clue that I need to let go of -- yet another -- person in my life.
Am I way out of whack, here? If the friendship isn't two-way with some give-and-take and ebb-and-flow, then perhaps it's time for me to move on. Hope I didn't just hijack this thread....
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If I can't lower my expectations and effectively detach emotionally from the seemingly consistent disappointment over this relationship, I am thinking that the indignation may be a clue that I need to let go of -- yet another -- person in my life.
Na, you didn't hijack the thread. I think your indignation is reasonable. You and she had an annual bike ride that meant a lot to the friendship. Now it appears that it didn't have the same importance to her. That's a big loss and very painful. And it looks like she wasn't quite as loyal, close, or bonded as you had thought. That is where the indignation comes in. It's kind of a defense against feeling rejected, unimportant, not as exciting, etc. I think it's a good defense for a while, until you can tolerate those other feelings of vulnerability. You're starting to see the other side of the indignation, which is that you're also questioning the friendship and that might be "disloyal" of you. So you can only do this in small doses until you can tolerate whatever your intuition tells you.
Does this make any sense...
bunny
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As usual, bunny, you make a lot of sense. You're right. The indignation is my armor right now. I'm still so raw and vulnerable from ending my relationship that it's all I can muster until, as you suggest, my intuition leads me elsewhere.
Actually, an exterior layer of indignation is progress. This compares to years of hiding behind anger which sometimes was expressed inappropriately or in fits of rage. It was easier to experience anger (benefit of an adrenaline rush, too) rather than being vulnerable.
As to my cycling partner, I think she may be feeling guilty. She e-mailed several times and phoned last night. I was in the middle of a household project so I asked my daughter to convey that I'd need to call her back. At this point I am not planning to phone her because I want to avoid conflict. We've had other episodes where we tried to delve deeper into relationship disparities or disappointments. It backfired and resulted in stretches of avoidance where we had no contact for several months. Because we ran in similar social circles -- and she was my best cycling partner -- I would usually concede, break the silence, and reach out. In a let bygones-be-bygones fashion, we'd put the incident behind us but never really address core issues. Our truces usually resulted in her telling me where I was amiss or lacking insight.
So for now I am letting yet another person go while trying to detach. There may be some childishness in there -- a stonewall approach?-- but it's where I'm at right now. Just can't take anymore grief at present.
Thanks for your support, bunny. I really appreciate and value it.
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We've had other episodes where we tried to delve deeper into relationship disparities or disappointments. It backfired and resulted in stretches of avoidance where we had no contact for several months. Because we ran in similar social circles -- and she was my best cycling partner -- I would usually concede, break the silence, and reach out. In a let bygones-be-bygones fashion, we'd put the incident behind us but never really address core issues. Our truces usually resulted in her telling me where I was amiss or lacking insight.
Is it possible that if you perceive her as more of a 'cycling partner' the friendship can continue? I'm wondering whether you can lower your expectations and still be friends. I don't think she's interested in core issues or anything at that level, and will get defensive if that level is approached. She sounds kind of selfish and superficial (sorry). And that's probably okay for cycling.
I guess my unsolicited advice is to call her when you're calmer and be really breezy and superficial. You can express disappointment at the cancellation but not enough to be a guilt trip. She'll get the message that she was a jerk but not counterattack. Hopefully she'll try to make amends. Can you come up with some alternative cycling deal so it's not a total blowout and more of a win-win situation? If not, I understand. I've had problems with friends that took a while to recover from.
bunny
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She sounds kind of selfish and superficial (sorry). And that's probably okay for cycling.
Your assessment of her is accurate. No need to apologize.
...call her when you're calmer and be really breezy and superficial. You can express disappointment at the cancellation but not enough to be a guilt trip.
Good idea. If she does want to maintain any sort of future contact/friendship, I think this is the level/tone that she's comfortable with and prefers. Instead of doing a 'crash and burn' (i.e. completely ending the relationship which constitutes so much of the black-and-white/all-or-nothing thinking) this is a balanced approach. Thanks.
Can you come up with some alternative cycling deal so it's not a total blowout and more of a win-win situation?
Well, it won't be a weeklong ride like in the past but there are day-long or possible weekend trips. There's a 2-day jaunt I know of, perhaps I'll suggest that. Or I am now free to pursue a tour abroad that interested me several years ago (she wasn't interested at the time). Maybe I'll end up doing something really different this summer (provided I can afford it) :?
Again, thanks for the feedback. Really helpful and so timely.
Now, back to indignation...what I realized today (the knowledge transferred from my head to my heart, actually) is that it's just a smoke screen (imo) to hide hurt and vulnerability. Much better to take the vulnerability into the light, so to speak, examine it -- be present with it -- and look at it for what it is. Just my rambling thoughts....
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Bludie,
This being a very emotional time for you currently with your relationship break-up, it might be best for you, that you do not take on too much at once.
Making a decision to let another person who has been a big part of your life go right now, might be a lot to handle emotionally.
It does not mean that you might not decide to let the friendship go down the line, but maybe you do not have to decide right now.
That she is being distant right now might be to your advantage. You can take time to heal and process the ending of your relationship. You can also tell her that you are taking some time for yourself to do just that, if she questions why you haven't been "running after her". Meaning calling her often- asking why she isn't calling you. That seems to be the pattern that she likes, from what you have written already about your disscussion or "arguing" style together.
I do think it is strange that a good friend of 5 years has started to thwart your calls after 9 months of your having moved. I moved, and have been in my new location for over a decade now, and am still in very, very regular contact (with in-person visits as well) with my very best friend who lives where I moved from.
Also, at the very time she knows that you are going through a hard time because of the break-up, and that the cycling trip might do you good, she cancels :( That is really not a good sign in my book, and I can't help but wonder if that is not part of the whole avoidance of deep discussions that she does. It would not be about you & her, but even having to get deep concerning your break-up might worry her. She might be worried about what to say to you, how emotional you might be, etc. Or, she might even think it could lead to deeper discussions about long standing issues between you & she.
Though I also wonder about another thing. Could she be feeling resentful that you moved? Just a thought...
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Very good observations.
As to her being hurt that I moved, yes, you're right on, Guest. We discussed this after I moved (which is only 100 miles away). My thought is that things wouldn't change all that much since I planned to visit regularly because my mother still resides there. And there's the telephone. And there's e-mail. And there's a bike trail exactly half way between our respective cities. So, I didn't view this as a huge disruption in our friendship.
As I conveyed before, she grew distant (i.e., not returning phone calls and general unavailability). During one brief conversation she conceded to thinking fatalistically about the future of our friendship -- in a sense, banishment -- to avoid hurt or disappointment.
In fairness to her, I must also admit that she witnessed my gradual but prevailing preoccupation with my ex-N-fiance and his circumstances (unruly kids; shifting job climate; suicidal ex-wife -- gee, I wonder why -- sorry) and all the attention and focus that an N requires.
Ultimately, our weekly bike rides tapered off and almost became nonexistent (seasonal change also compounded this). In one e-mail she admitted to "mourning the loss" of our friendship. At first I deemed this a bit self-centered thinking she should be happy that I had finally found my soul mate (ugh, favored mating call of Ns trying to lure you in). I question how much she actually missed me or was it her ready playmate she was missing?
Now, perhaps, after writing/reading this post, I can see her side of the proverbial street more clearly. However, does that necessitate this distance-posturing? I don't know. One thing for sure, not reacting and taking time to respond to this will be key.
And, yes, I am hurt and disillusioned that in the midst of my life's proverbial dark night of the soul, she's opting out.
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Hi Bludie,
The above "guest" reply was me, just too lazy to re-sign in after somehow getting signed out :)
Also, please forgive me but for some reason I thought you were male! It is difficult to tell by some generic board names, but I can see by your reply below (your X finance being male) that you are likely female...
During one brief conversation she conceded to thinking fatalistically about the future of our friendship -- in a sense, banishment -- to avoid hurt or disappointment.
In fairness to her, I must also admit that she witnessed my gradual but prevailing preoccupation with my ex-N-fiance and his circumstances (unruly kids; shifting job climate; suicidal ex-wife -- gee, I wonder why -- sorry) and all the attention and focus that an N requires.
I understand where she is coming from in that I've felt like completely withdrawing from a particular relationship when I've felt rejected and terribly hurt by something big that would change within it, too. But I have to say that I also felt that way because the relationship was unstable/rocky in the first place. It was just like as you describe with your and your friend's, where core issues were never able to get addressed. It was with my xN dating partner.
Had the relationship been stronger, I wouldn't have reacted the same at all. It would have been easy to just discuss things rationally, and there wouldn't have been the weight and pain of dozens of other unaddressed issues on my shoulders.
Your friend could also be still carrying around pent-up, undisclosed feelings about your former preoccupation with your X dating partner & how that affected your friendship, on top of your moving.
I have no idea what is going on in her mind of course, but it is at least possible that she is also thinking that since you somewhat set her aside emotionally during your dating relationship, she might resent the idea of being there (hence emotional distance & cancelling bike trip) to hear all about the pain of it being over, and "pick up the pieces" so to speak. She also might be feeling wanted and disposed at will.
I admire you for being compassionate and insightful enough to imagine her side of things, and hopefully it is the same for her with you.
I also think you are really doing the wisest thing in not reacting outright. For one, you have enough on your plate at the moment, and secondly, there are likely some things for you to take some time to think on regarding your friendship. You can always tell her that you are taking time to get over your former romantic relationship, which is true. But what I am saying is that you do not even have to tell her that you are re-evaluating your & her friendship right now.
When you do come together again to talk, I think it will be so important that you tell her that it will be necessary to talk about things as they come up, in order to have a good friendship. That it won't be possible to have one unless issues that are upsetting to either party are able to be discussed and dealt with as they arise, instead of silently festering.
She seems afraid of addressing conflict for some reason (not sure how you feel about doing so with her), so you can even assure her that you will not judge her for her feelings, but only try to understand them and work through the problem at hand. You can also tell her that getting through conflicts will make your friendship stronger, not weaker, and that you will always respect her for her honesty.
All of this going on in your life right now, even though very painful at the moment :( , can be a great opportunity for positive life change in the long run.
You can learn some valuable things about yourself regarding your former relationship with N (I learned a lot about myself from having dated an N traited person for 5 years), and you have the opportunity to at least try to have a "brand new & improved" relationship with a long time very good friend.
I really hope it works out with your friend...
BT
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Maybe the friend needs some time to recharge every once in awhile from helping to share the very heavy burden of a friend going through a break-up with an N.
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So true, one_eyed_jack. I sent this same friend a New Year's e-mail to wish her a Happy 2005 and let her know I am interested in maintaining friendship on more of a balanced emotional plane. I invited her, and her spouse, for a day visit some weekend and am leaving the door open without demands.
We'll see what happens. In addition to, perhaps, burdening this friendship I am realizing that time and distance have a way of changing things. It's been 9 months since leaving her hometown and, in some instances, certain relationships slip away in time. We'll see if this is the case. The good news is that I have few to no expectations and feel as if I can take the outcome of this friendship either way.