Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dr. Richard Grossman on June 17, 2010, 09:22:08 AM
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Here's a disturbing example:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/BP-chief-apologizes-for-small-rb-286267122.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=4&asset=&ccode=
Ugh!
Best,
Richard
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Hi Doc,
You are very right. This is one big N nightmare.
I live 26 miles from Gulf in Southern LA. I saw his talk and was appalled but then Tony Hayward is just as bad and we have been forced to listen to him daily. I think you HAVE to hire sociopaths and N's to make sure they will put their own well-being above the good of mankind and our entire ecosystem.
BP has been completely without mercy. The "workers" BP is hiring are being given no instructions on the protection of our ecosystem. Yesterday while supposedly "cleaning" an island of nesting pelicans (it amounted to an hour long photo op) they crushed numerous eggs and even stepped on live baby chicks! Yesterday they had the Coast Guard, which they control, stop a group of fishermen who were had taken their own shop vacs out to siphon oil from their oysters beds. The effort was sad as they had only managed to collect one barrel of oil but stopping these people who are being forced to sit idle was heartless.
As much as we are hurting here I would encourage everyone to avoid eating our seafood with the exception of Crawfish and Cat Fish which are fresh water. We learned two days ago that the company that is testing the food for oil (for whom BP is a major contractor) has NOT been asked to test for dispersant. The newscaster even repeated it twice, he was so shocked. I would urge you to have your state require their own testing before allowing it in.
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Here's a disturbing example:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/BP-chief-apologizes-for-small-rb-286267122.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=4&asset=&ccode=
Ugh!
Best,
Richard
UGH is RIGHT!!! :P
Bones
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I've also noticed that bullies get ahead in the workplace in alarming numbers....bosses only care about bottom line, not workers morale or cooperation among employees. But with this realization - I had to ask the question - why? I've noticed that when I've seen a co-worker (including myself!) have trouble with a bully boss - they usually become passive complainers. They go to HR and by complaining about their unfair treatment, the HR person decides they are petty, unable to interact well with co-workers, not productive because they are focused on this conflict rather than their position/work, not management material because they can't handle basic conflict. So, I'm learning that by not dealing with the bullies in a professional, assertive manner (either the bully will get scared that you can react professionally and go elsewhere or he retaliates telling you its time to move on) is the downfall of many otherwise smart, talented people. Also, if you got to HR AFTER you've asserted yourself and say - I'm not here to complain, I attempted to resolve a situation on my own and its escalated, I need your help in resolving this - the reaction you will get is totally different. I know you have to be careful and not challenge a boss, but workplace respect is a separate issue and it can be presented that way. Bullies and Narcissists get ahead because while we don't ask to be treated badly, we allow it through fear and passivity.
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If you go to our HR with a problem you are handed a 24 page document that needs to be read and filled out within 24 hours of the incident happening. One problem with HR is that they are still part of the company that is condoning the bully! Our complaint department is a joke.
I just watched the meeting between BP's Tony Hayward and the committee appointed to question BP. He kept refusing to answer and suppressing a smile. Even as he walked out he was smiling. As dying marine life piles up on our coast fleeing the oil spill she smiles like a kid caught stealing cookies and complains that he wants HIS LIFE BACK. Very N.
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Hi,
I'm not taking a side and I sure don't have any answers to this tragedy. But I question seriously whether nationalized narcissism could be placated by anything other than narcissists.
tt
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I have always worked at small companies (100 employees or less). However, for the last 7 years my small company has contracted me to work on site for a corporation. The largest employer in my state other than the state government. The culture of arrogance, even among the "small" employees of the corporation, disgusts me every day. Everyday courtesy is non-existent. Self-promotion, belittlement of others, is the general culture. One employee I was talking to even stated that the employees try to run over contractors with their cars (those like me, who work there but are not employees of the company). He thought it was ok.
I am just one person but when I decide to spend my money, I focus as much as I can on the businesses in my community who are locally owned. Unfortunately, there are not many of those left. Big corporation "strong arm" tactics with their suppliers has made it virtually impossible for a local business to sell for the same price. As consumers we need to make a decision. Are we willing to pay a little more money for the same product from a local business? If we are not, then we need to be willing to suffer locally with lower wages working for the executives of big business. And suffer the consequences when the narcissists make decisions.
I understand that many people in the Gulf Region depend upon BP for their livelihood. And they should have, and deserve, their jobs. They have worked hard for the company. Because of arrogance, cost cutting to line the pockets of executives, and lack of concern for an area of the world BP isn't based in, they are losing their jobs.
NBC Nightly News had a story on tonight about a small company, Ameripure Oysters. A small, locally-owned company that supplied oysters to big corporations, like Red Lobster. They shut down their business today. It made me cry. Wonder if the BP execs saw that story.
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Oh, by the way. My brother, the N, who I have mentioned in my posts, is employed by this company. In a very high position. He was very disturbed when he found out I was going to be working there. I'm sure he didn't want his "lowly" family members walking the same halls as he. In fact, when we meet by chance, he shakes my hand like I am someone he has never met and acts haughty. When I called him on it at a family get-together, he said he was just being professional. My guess is that he doesn't want anyone to know that I am the "lowly contractor".
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The pervasiveness of narcissism in the corporate world is downright frightening. I work for a serious N as well as others who have posted here. What I find amazing as well is not just the opportunities these working world Ns have, their quick steps up the ladder, their lavish compensation packages and the way they treat those around them----but the extent to which those that put them in power do so. What does that say about us, about the human condition today? That we not only tolerate these Ns in the workplace, but reward them and allow them to wreak their special brand of damage on everyone who comes in their path.
Could not this escalating trend of Ns in the workplace be equally matched by the co-D version of those who put them in power, support them and reward them? Because after all, it is not just one person who does so, there seemingly must be teams of leadership within these organizations who put these Ns on a pedastal, letting them make as many damaging decisions as they wish.
My personal work situation is the same. Every single person who comes into contact with the N knows what she is....even the leadership in charge, yet they refuse to make any changes. After a point, you can not only point the finger at the N, but those who insist on enabling him/her at the expense of everyone else.
Such a sobering, sad reality.
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sunblue,
Insightful. Why do we tolerate these N's? Is it because they promise us riches? How many of these have been in the news lately? Promising the investor, who just wants to grow what little cash they have, that the N can support them? Is it our own narcissism that decides we deserve them? OR has the N taught us we deserve them to suck us into their web?
And so why is society so co-D? Is it nature or nuture?
I would like to see research on this.
Logy
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Thirty years ago I used to subscribe to a magazine that followed the negative things corporations did. I still remember an incident of corporate dumping where a U.S. cable manufacturing company mixed left-over heavy metals into fertilizer bound for India. It would have cost it $150. a ton to dispose of it properly. Instead they sent it to be dusted in rice paddies by barefooted children. The rice paddies were also farmed by oxen who ingested the oil through their feet. We knew well what mercury and lead did to people, animals and children.
People complain when businesses are regulated. And then even when they are as in this case, people are paid off. This has been going on for a very long time and there are a lot of N's involved. Who better to run an amoral entity.
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Hi Sealynx,
I'm frustrated and I hear the frustration in yours and everyone's posts on this thread. These are just thoughts that race through my mind as I try to make sense of what is going on, using my limited, and largely uninformed big picture thinking.
Wasn't it revealed just a couple of years ago that numerous imports to the USA, from China, such as baby formula, animal food (god only knows what else and where else it went to), were laced with deadly toxins? Is it prudent to assumed that narcissism is behind all such actions? Narcissism is sinister enough, but could something even more sinister be at work behind the scenes? What is it?
Where the BP oil spill is concerned, is it reasonable to think that the most culpable players/narcissists are the ones we don't see? Tony Hayward - CEO was the visible one. I'm more concerned about those operating behind a thick veil of protection, the ones we don't see.
According to the European financial database Amadeus, JPMorgan Chase is the No. 1 holder of stock in BP. That distinction also has earned the Wall Street bank the title of “Global Ultimate Owner” of the oil giant, as it owns 28.34% of BP. Next, at 7.99%, is Legal and General Group, a British-based financial services company with assets of more than $350 billion. Another U.S. investment firm, BlackRock Inc., owns 7.1% of BP. Other owners include the governments of Kuwait, Norway, Singapore and China.
Dang, it's so mixed up, I wouldn't know how to form a slanted view, let alone an accurate view.
tt
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Yes TT,
I totally agree and if there is good in all of this it is that more people are beginning to see that there is little difference between our political parties and even the politicians themselves. Too many of them accepted money from Sachs and BP to do their bidding. We have sham regulatory agencies controlled by the entities they regulate and impressive words substitute for meaningful action when things go wrong. Meanwhile we have been manipulated into polarizing around simplistic emotional and religious issues that deflect our attention away from these serious N behaviors. We are given unpopular groups to oppose on quasi moral grounds so we can exhaust hostile safely away from things of major importance to the world.
Karl Marx once said that "Religion is the opiate of the masses." I think that aptly describes the way corporations treat us. They use our expectation of moral behavior against us repeatedly. You only have to hear our mostly Catholic fishermen asking BP to "step up to the plate" and "do the right thing" to know that they still believe they are dealing with a moral entity. They don't see their own values are being manipulated to work against them. How often have we allowed ourselves to be harmed because we gave an N the chance to "do the right thing?"
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I'd have to say that diagnosing a guy as a Narcissist based on his use of the term "small people" when English is his second language is a pretty thin reed.
mud
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I don't see it as much a diagnosis as a comment on the corporate culture he is acting on behalf of. Empathy is not in the BP vocabulary.
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I believe that whenever anyone, from any culture, accepts the position and high pay of a corporate figurehead, they have the resources at hand to make sure they are using language appropriate for the culture they are speaking to. If not, then they don't have sensitivity, which may not make them a narcissist, but surely makes them unconcerned about others.
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Hi mud,
I'd have to say that diagnosing a guy as a Narcissist based on his use of the term "small people" when English is his second language is a pretty thin reed.mud
I don't know Tony Hayward. I agree that it goes against what has been the prevailing guideline in most discussions here, which has been don't label, and that diagnosing narcissism requires more than a cursory observation. On a personal level, if that guideline applies to one, to be fair, it should apply to each individual. I also agree with Sealynx that this discussion is more about a corporate entity or corporate entities. The buck has to stop somewhere. If we focus on the entity rather than the source that promotes it (perhaps in the end, that source (the root crown) is the collective human heart), we end up the proverbial squirrel in the road. Road kill. Or to give it a metaphorical 'greenie' spin :P, take Kudzu vine, we have lots of it in the south. It is an extremely aggressive vine that grows at a rate of almost a foot a day and quickly encompasses an ever-expanding area, killing everything as it goes. Some claim it cannot be stopped. It can, but it often takes a lot of persistence. Honestly, the way corrupt government systems operate (not just that of the USA) is so complicated, that few of us can hope to understand or make sense of it or know what to do as an individual to stop it.
tt
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I believe that whenever anyone, from any culture, accepts the position and high pay of a corporate figurehead, they have the resources at hand to make sure they are using language appropriate for the culture they are speaking to. If not, then they don't have sensitivity, which may not make them a narcissist, but surely makes them unconcerned about others.
I believe tht clumsy speak is clumsy speak and that we've all done it. Tony Hayward had a microphone and TV cameras to assist in delivering his clumsy speak to a world wide audience. With pay of 4 plus million, it's unlikely that offending the 'small people' was his goal. I expect pleasing those pulling the strings behind the scenes was. He has been or is being relieved of his duties as CEO. Let's see how much SLICKER this next CEO is. Let's see how adept he is at avoiding clumsy speak and how effective it is in solving the real problem. :P
tt
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CB,
But does the term narcissism even have meaning if the pool of N's isnt small enough to contrast with "regular" people?
Then there's the problem of defining 'regular people', right?
tt
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One thing that occurred to me was that the media never paused to note, English is not his native language.
"Small people" may have been a terribly awkward choice that didn't quite carry the condescending intent he was blamed for.
Not to say I have instinctive sympathy for a mega-rich oil exec, it would be a challenge...but I think the demonization of him has been pretty lame, sound-byte driven.
Hayward, i don't know. Hell, I don't know whether CEOs like that even feel clearly that they can hang onto their humanity. He probably did need to throw himself under the bus to make the right noises of remorse for the corporation, and he was clearly on the defensive....
But even with all "the buck stops here" invective--I think the buck really stops with the citizens. We (generically) are the ones who don't want to think about our lifestyles. If we demanded a different world, consistently and with conviction, we'd have one. But we'd have to make significant changes and sacrifices. But "we" want it both ways.
Don't dirty my earth with your filthy oil! But sure, I'll take a plastic bag...too lazy to remember my cloth one. (I am guilty as anyone.)
xo
Hops
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"He has been or is being relieved of his duties as CEO."
From what I understand, he is still CEO. Just not in control of the Gulf disaster. So, as politics and PR goes, BP is hoping this move will placate the U.S. masses while protecting Tony. And right now, there is not one BP person assigned to be its spokesperson in the U.S., other than the Chairman. Rather than appointing a corporate spokesperson, someone who we can look to who will let us know the facts, we must rely on either the media for their spin OR the BP ads which now feature the average Joe. While he sounds believable, how much control does he have over the situation? NONE!
Narcissism, in my opinion, is rampant is "for profit" corporations. The Gulf disaster goes further. A failure of corporations and government. A failure of society.
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Just so we're on the same page, it was Carl-Henric Svanberg, Swedish BP Chairman, not Tony Hayward CEO who apologized for speaking "clumsily" when he referred to the families and businesses hurt by the oil spill as "small people". My version of clumsy speak :roll: :oops:. Glad I qualified my comments early on by saying I was largely uninformed.
tt
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Logy,
I am just one person but when I decide to spend my money, I focus as much as I can on the businesses in my community who are locally owned. Unfortunately, there are not many of those left. Big corporation "strong arm" tactics with their suppliers has made it virtually impossible for a local business to sell for the same price. As consumers we need to make a decision. Are we willing to pay a little more money for the same product from a local business? If we are not, then we need to be willing to suffer locally with lower wages working for the executives of big business. And suffer the consequences when the narcissists make decisions.
It's the truth, Logy. I see the same thing you describe. Another of their strong arm tactics is a subtle, unrelenting, well thought out (nothing incidental about it) seductive mesmerization of their patrons to accept greed driven tactics without question. I call it the 'box store mentality'.
It really bothers me on a personal level to criticize, criticize, criticize when I have so little to offer for solutions. I would like to patronize local businesses, but Main street has disappeared, they are a dying breed.
tt
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Surely there is some thousand page document that outlines step by step how to handle an oil spill of this magnitude. Or a government licensing bureau that requires to have such a plan on file (I have tried to get a food license from the state and there are plenty of such plans required for an operation that simple!) But, apparently not.
CB,
Each company has a large plan for spill containment when they drill. Additionally, by law, once a spill is declared of "national significance", which this one was in April or early May, the EPA and Coast Guard take control over containment operations with their own large scale plan. Obviously none of the entities, private or public, were prepared with the equipment to implement the plans.
A couple of notes to lend a little perspective:
1. This is without a doubt a disaster but only 30 years ago a considerably larger and pretty similar spill occurred in an offshore Mexico oil field and the actual damage was failry limited. Here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10310435.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10310435.stm) and here http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/06/14/the_legacy_of_ixtoc?hidecomments=yes (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/06/14/the_legacy_of_ixtoc?hidecomments=yes) are a couple of links indicating the harm to wildlife is pretty shortlived.
2. Basin wide, in the Gulf of Mexico it is estimated that natural petroleum seeps emit between 80,000 and 200,000 tons every year. If this well isn't stopped until mid August it will have emitted about 400,000 tons.
3. We are understandably reminded of the costs of oil in a situation like this, but we seldom consider the benefits. Petroleum has undoubtedly lifted more people out of poverty and saved more lives than virtually any other substance known. On top of that, for the critter lovers, it probably prevented the extinction of the whales by making whale oil an unprofitable fuel for illumination and most other applications.
mud
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Thanks, Mud...good perspective.
Actually, this is the most encouraging report I've seen on the oil spill:
http://thebubble.msn.com/#/video/?id=9ec7554a-0030-4132-8dd5-346c5b95bf6a
CB
PS...its a joke. Enjoy the laugh.
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Have to say, I'm not looking for rosier predictions. I think the only thing that can save it for our children and their granchildren is if we are all willing to feel the pain of pure stark shock and grief and massive accountability right to the level of taking it very personally, as our personal consumption and our personal commitments to action and advocacy and radical change, fast, are the only things that could really turn it around in the long term. Soft-pedaling what we've done just means we'll keep doing it, imo.
Last weekend I went to witness MTR (mountaintop removal mining) in West Virginia with a small group. Looked first hand at where my electricity comes from. Met a brave man, Larry Gibson, who lives with a gun in every room of his cabin, and his bedroom door is on wheels it's so heavy, for protection... He would not sell. His family's mountain land has shrunk to 50 acres, from the top of which he has been inviting people to view the moonscape that's been created around him for the last 20 years. Recently, it's gotten so there's enough interest that he built a picnic shelter in his meadow and brought in 2 portable toilets. His family cemetery used to be a small sweet knoll with beautiful mountains rising on each side. Now, half of it's gone, the ancient headstones of his kin tossed down with the valley fill...old Appalachian bones ground through by the dozers. (They just put a road though it one day. Some other relative had signed papers with an X.) The cemetery, what's left of it, now sticks up in between two truncated, amputated, permanently flattened, chopped-off ridges that will forever be gone. Like 500 other Appalachian mountains so far. Because there's a lucrative form of purer coal in seams near the tops, and the coal companies have figured out how to blast off the entire top of a mountain with 9 men and advanced equipment, rather than the hundred or so that would've worked it beneath the surface. So, their jobs have shrunk, their streams are full of acid runoff, and people in the area who've never even set foot in a mine are being diagnosed with black lung because the blasts send so much debris and dust through the air. And the beautiful mountaintops and ecosystems that took millenia to form are...GONE. Permanently. To fuel a couple years of our energy consumption.
They're only uneducated Appalachian folks, though, so they have a hard time being heard. The Gulf is acute and visible and we watch it spew on TV...MTR is chronic, ongoing, and hidden from us as much as possible. Clean coal? A foul lie.
MTR sites are hidden behind the pretty mountains right along the interstate, so tourists driving through won't even have to think about it. His home, Kayford Mountain (center of the largest MTR site in W.Va.) is 30 minutes from Charleston.
I'm ashamed, and agonized, and angry, and grieving, and my life must change. The only way I can feel okay is to keep telling myself, stay turned in the direction that me witnessing, me speaking, me changing, is the right thing to do. Instead of feeling powerless or waiting for corporations or even fellow citizens to have an epiphany, I've just decided to accept that I've had my own. Science helps, religion helps. All that's in between, all the minimizing and rationalizing, will be things there's time to discuss after the refugees from coastal cities have been safely settled. They'll be hungry and thirsty.
I brought home a pocket full of coal. I'm going to use slivers of it passed around in baskets during a lay sermon I'm doing in July. Kind of a coal communion. I hope everyone will tape little slivers to their light switches. Touch them each time. Think of the miners. Think of Larry and his blasted home and history, and his tears.
Hops
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The sad thing is that there are clean energy alternatives. Look at www.ballard.com . We keep poisoning the world because it is all about existing jobs and who buys up patents to clean energy alternatives i.e. oil companies. Until our representatives work to invite in clean energy companies, we will believe that we have to work in coal mines and on oil rigs.
People here are still chanting drill baby drill because even as big oil kills our culture and the old bumper sticker "Oil Feeds My Family" could easily be replaced by "Oil, Try and Eat it!", they can't see any alternatives for themselves.
With oil and coal comes low self-esteem, diminished interest in education and the feeling that people can do nothing else. These energy forms are evil to the core. They kill not only wildlife and people, but the human spirit.
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Hi CB,
I know, light bulbs are my voice, my way to say, I know this choice has impact. Butterfly-in-forest impact, maybe, but I need to do it because I can no longer pretend. It cuts me in two when I pretend it doesn't matter.
The big changes to save it all? HAS to be regulation. Fierce, bold, aggressive take-charge, hell with politics, regulation.
So...that means political action and advocacy, my least favorite thing. But I do think regulation is what has to happen.
Meanwhile, as a personal compass, we have choices not only about our personal consumption/assumptions...but also about the message we carry in the way we live our lives.
I'm pathetically inconsistent, drive a guzzler (all I could afford at the time), feel like a first-world queen compared to those who really struggle.
All of it. But in spite of that, I want to just turn in the right direction in more of my actions and keep finding meaning in that. Find happiness in having a lighter footprint and emitting less carbon.
It's like a victory one may never live to see. People walked in Birmingham and stood before dogs and fire hoses--for justice, not because they thought they'd be welcomed and agreed with. Just came a time when history said, now or never. How long?
I think we're there about the environment. I don't have all the answers but just knowing or believing that, gives me a kind of clarity I hadn't felt before I went to Kayford Mountain.
love,
Hops
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I saw Tony on the TV last night. He was going on vacation for a few days. He looked unfazed and was exuding well being and happiness. Arguing about his diagnosis is maybe not the issue here. I live in Canada and I think he is a bottom feeding, scum sucking, pot licking dickhead who doesnt have the brain power to realize the enormity of a catastrophe that he has a great deal of responsibliity for. The fishermen are what the heart of America really is. They are the heart of any country. They are probably the guys who get used as canon fodder in the big wars that are initiated by narcissists. They have huge knowledge and ingenuity and would not stand around doing nothing. They are independent starters. A dying breed.
This is such a sad, sad thing that is happening.
I am encouraged because at least we are talking about leadership and narcissism. This is a start.
Sea storm
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I think it is wrong to compare this spill to the one in Mexico, why? Because our coastline is not one of pretty beaches, it is made up of marshy estuaries that literally hold the spawning areas for much of the marine life in the gulf. This is not just about dirty fish and beaches, this is a huge ECOLOGICAL disaster the results of which we have yet to fully know. We also don't know what the effects of millions, perhaps billions of gallons of dispersant will be on fish and the people who eat them since the government is not requiring that marine life be tested for Corexit.
Things like cancer and liver failure are hard to relate back to chemicals, even if tests show your body is full of a suspect chemical. It takes long term studies to determine that and you probably won't have that long to live. As for the oil rising from the floor, I wonder who came up with those numbers and how much has been added to that by poorly capped wells or failed drilling efforts. After all, we now know that oil companies use numbers for their own very selfish purposes.
The people of Louisiana have traded their way of life for oil and now they are forced to work for the company that destroyed it and pray they even get a paycheck on time. Louisiana has a long toxic history with chemicals and oil. If any of you saw the CNN series Toxic America it started in a small Louisiana town with a huge cancer rate whose water has long been poisoned by the chemical plant next door.
That isn't all. Use google earth to zoom in on the marsh near Grand Isle and you will see the entire southern part of our state is criss-crossed with straight lines. Those lines are numerous canals dredged to the gulf by big oil so they would have a quicker way to reach their rigs. No ecological studies were required. The result was salt water intrusion that killed much of the vegetation holding that fragile land together. We don't have just one ecosystem in Louisiana, we have three, salt water marshes, brackish water (a mix) and fresh. Each has its own animals and vegetation. Enormous coastal erosion was caused by those canals that makes us much more prone hurricane surges..
To make matters worse, the gulf is heating up and it looks like we are in for an early and extended tropical season. I predict that little oil condom they've slapped on their big mistake will be ripped off within the next month as everyone flees boats and rigs for higher ground. What will be left of their those secondary rigs is anyone's guess.
As for those wonderful contingency plans they had for a spill like this...I'm still waiting to see one of those Walruses they are working so hard to save.
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I think it is wrong to compare this spill to the one in Mexico, why? Because our coastline is not one of pretty beaches, it is made up of marshy estuaries that literally hold the spawning areas for much of the marine life in the gulf.
Campeche Bay where Ixtoc 1 blew out is itself only 170 feet deep at it's deepest point and is in effect one large breeding ground. Below is another link detailing not only how fast the shrimp, fish and crab populations recovered but also mentioning the large natural petroleum seeps in the gulf. The numbers concerning these seeps that I quoted were from academic studies not industry sources. I couldn't find the original article but the prof in this article confirms the numbers and is not an industry source.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2011931961_ixtoc23.html (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2011931961_ixtoc23.html)
Disasters don't make facts superfluous. Nor do they render emotions superior to fact based analysis as a means of assessing effects and, consequently, responses.
mud
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Again, lots of differences here Mud.
1. The sun was a major factor here and does not affect the oil at the depths we are talking about where it can remain in the food chain for decades. Every time a hurricane enters the gulf the sea bed is churned.
2. The BAY of Campeche is also a shallow bay with sandy beaches...not the open gulf and marsh lands where the soil holds the oil.
3. I wonder what the effect of despersants will be on those organisms that normally eat oil. It seems to be making the fishermen pretty sick!
4. Even in your article the return of the seafood was not without issue...."I found shrimp with tumor formations in the tissue, and crabs without the pincers. These were very serious effects," Soto said. Bon Apetit.... Time will tell! I won't be eating gulf seafood any time soon, probably not in my lifetime.
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I am sorry that I do not have the links and information to support my comment. I tried to find them from my research four years ago but could not. So my comment is purely from memory. Take it or leave it.
Petroleum products have been found to affect the reproductive system. Male frogs living in an area that experienced oil leakage had a decline in their ability to reproduce. I'm still looking for the research site that stated this. Sorry for the lack of info.
Logy
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1. The sun was a major factor here and does not affect the oil at the depths we are talking about where it can remain in the food chain for decades. Every time a hurricane enters the gulf the sea bed is churned.
The oil at depth is apparently very dilute and most likely most of it will be carried out to the central Atlantic.
2. The BAY of Campeche is also a shallow bay with sandy beaches...not the open gulf and marsh lands where the soil holds the oil.
As one of the other links pointed out organics devour or overgrow most of the oil that comes inland and I believe it is more readily consumed or covered in a more organically active estuary than on a sandy beach.
3. I wonder what the effect of despersants will be on those organisms that normally eat oil. It seems to be making the fishermen pretty sick!
Don't know. Good question.
4. Even in your article the return of the seafood was not without issue...."I found shrimp with tumor formations in the tissue, and crabs without the pincers. These were very serious effects," Soto said. Bon Apetit.... Time will tell! I won't be eating gulf seafood any time soon, probably not in my lifetime.
I took him to be saying that occurred in the first year and by the second those effects had largely dissipated.
There's no doubt this is an awful thing, but I think there's hope and evidence that the impact might be less than feared, especially long term.
Let's hope so.
Anyway, I'm glad we could disagree peacefully. :D
mud
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Mud and all
I respect your right to believe what you like. We do disagree well.. unlike our family of origin!!.
I'm worried about long term issues like cancer and know it is in the best interest of BP and other other oil companies to downplay that.
If you are worried about the lingering effects of oil pollution on or off land I suggest that you take a moment to view the following trailer and see the film if it interests you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTnm01lWsTg
Also read this article about Mexican oil spill...It is long but very informative.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37514348/ns/disaster_in_the_gulf/
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I read this article;
http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,2007202,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,2007202,00.html)
and thought of this thread.
Still don't know the long term consequences of course, but this is pretty encouraging so far.
mud