Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: river on September 30, 2010, 05:52:29 PM
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Hi, I havent been here for ages. Been studying. I'd like to ask for your help. Im going to copy a phrase from a book about psychotherapy. My request is please read it and tell me how it strikes you what feelings it brings up for you if any..................
".....in the verbal realm the right hemisphere is seen as contributing to the understanding of metaphor, paradox, and humour (tools of good therapist, advertising agencies, and bad politicians, all of whom recognise the power of these constructions to reach the affective terrotory of the right brain). "
ps, for anyone who hasnt come accross this language, 'affective' means emotional.
~~~~ thanks for your help~~~~ instant reactions much appreciated~~~~~
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No, doesn't really bring up any feelings for me. Why would it? This phrase does not use metaphor, paradox, humour so this phrase did not reach the affective territory of my right brain.
I feel bored.
Or maybe the phrase itself is a joke because it doesn't employ any of the compelling tactics that would elicit an emotional response. But then again if you are just studying....a lot of reference books are dull.
Taken out of context the phrase itself seems like a paradox that I would tell as a weird joke that only I would laugh at because I have dry humour.
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Brilliant, Muffin!
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Hi, I havent been here for ages. Been studying. I'd like to ask for your help. Im going to copy a phrase from a book about psychotherapy. My request is please read it and tell me how it strikes you what feelings it brings up for you if any..................
".....in the verbal realm the right hemisphere is seen as contributing to the understanding of metaphor, paradox, and humour (tools of good therapist, advertising agencies, and bad politicians, all of whom recognise the power of these constructions to reach the affective terrotory of the right brain). "
ps, for anyone who hasnt come accross this language, 'affective' means emotional.
~~~~ thanks for your help~~~~ instant reactions much appreciated~~~~~
My instant reaction....not all therapists are good. Some can be just as bad as a bad politician!
Bones
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Metaphor, paradox & humor all have an emotional (affective) component... and in all 3 cases, involve an association or connection of 1 thing and another... sometimes a match-up and sometimes polar opposites and most of the time, shades or degrees within a range between the opposites...which is "managed" by Rbrain (there is Lbrain activity in emotion, too).
This is an example of the statement:
...(tools of good therapist, advertising agencies, and bad politicians, ...
But, then - my Lbrain gets "on the job" very early in the morning thanks to my habit of feeding it caffiene & nicotine... while my Rbrain usually goes to sleep, simultaneously. Like a shift-change.
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Thanks to everyone for these answers.
I'll explain, when I read that I FREAKED. then I went back and read it, and thought 'what the .... 's wrong? I dont see anything the matter with that'. Then I thought of this line again, and again I felt - OUCH OUCH OUCH!
I'll try to explain what happened inside my head. this is ~ I guess why therapy never worked for me ~ I just seem to see and react differently to most of humanity.
This was written by an ex T. of mine, her chapter in the book.
When I read and humour (tools of good therapist, advertising agencies, and bad politicians, all of whom recognise the power of these constructions to reach the affective terrotory of the right brain). "
............ I thought, those times when she laughed, and a replayed and replayed those moments, so precious, moments of genuine human contact, Ok, I felt clever and witty, seen by her.
When I read those words, I saw this as 'oh, its just a tool she was using - to get to my sensitive emotional human parts of my brain'. And by God she did that! I was so hooked, in abject need. Ok, yes, there was over-blown transference, but these moments, they were only a tool!??
What I saw then was:
dehumanising/ invasive/ appropriating/ engineered connection to keep one coming back, along with all those other dupes, for thier 45 mins of emotiona desperation ............
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This moring I was reading the first few answers. I laughed, and I enjoyed imaging you laughing too, wherever you are in the world, Guest and muffin buster, how you entered into the playful spirit of this, not knowing what the hell I was getting at anyway, and making something of it. This was just human contact, humans reaching out to eachother, figuring out some meanings and being playful. Something here is above usiing tools to aim to get to the R. brain of the other person.
\Ok I know therapy has a purpose, and it SHOULD be for more than just relationship. Its just I felt so bad about something about these precious, sensitive human moment of contact being 'tools' to get to my right brain. And for what? In order to ~~~ what?
Some of what she did was good, thats for sure. But some made me feel like these words made me feel, like she wants to get power over me. I read partly to understand what was going on in the therapy.
Transference? only transference? Is there something Im reacting to? Or all from inside me?
I dont know, yet. And of course, Im not expecting anyone else to know. But any responses, I'd be itnerested in.
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Hi river,
My instant reaction: I shudder at being grouped with advertising agencies and bad politicians.
Being a patient is very difficult. (I say, having been one.) Most of us (here) come from backgrounds where the subtext in our family relationships was just plain lousy. So when a therapist says something supportive of us, why should we believe them? They are simply “advertising agencies”or “bad politicians”, hoping we will buy into something that isn’t real. So we look for those moments with our therapists when it is clear their reaction isn’t planned, thought out, or trained-in, etc.. And that’s when we can see how they feel about us. I remember one session with my first therapist (well-known throughout the country) when I walked in in carpenter’s jeans and a t-shirt having been busy doing house repairs up until the very last minute. Up until then I had always come from the hospital in shirt and tie. His un-considered comment: “Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. This was more telling than anything else he had previously said to me. Not that he had ever been kind or supportive in the slightest. When I showed him pictures of my wedding (that occurred during our therapy), his only comment was when he stopped at a picture of my wife: “A bosomy wedding.” (BTW, I don’t think he had an oral fixation…)
But back to the point (sorry). As patients, we need to somehow get behind the ad agency and the politician, and see if there is a decent human being to attach to—and someone who cares about us. If you wait long enough, the cues are always there (most often when the therapist slips out of role—or steadfastly refuses to do so [I would stay away from those]). And if you’re lucky, behind the theories and training, you discover a terrific, welcoming human being.
Richard
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..............Its just I felt so bad about something about these precious, sensitive human moment of contact being 'tools' to get to my right brain................
Sounds like you are saying that this interaction is inauthentic.
I remember going through a phase a few years ago when I was really focused on what was authentic and what was inauthentic.
Maybe it was part of the process of realizing or coming to terms or coming out of the fog..I was learning that many of the people in my life did not give a rats-behind about me.
I'm not sure why, maybe I just needed someone to really care about me and not just act like they cared because I was giving them a paycheck. It's also a job though for therapists. I had a coworker who had been a masters level therapist in the past, she stopped doing it because she said that her patients rarely made progress and it was frustrating to her. I got to know this person after working with her for 5 years and just because she had worked as a therapist didn't make her a caring person- she was just another person in the world- and my impression was that she did have some controlling behaviors- she also had a "horrendous" relationship with her mother- it looked to me like she herself had not overcome some of the issues her patients were trying to resolve.
I was diagnosed with some minor cancer that was removed and taken care of a few years ago, it happened when I was seeing a therapist and I cried really hard in her office and it was embarrassing to me to cry like that- freaked out upset crying. My impression to this day is that she thought I was sort of stupid or something. The fact of the matter is the cancer was my problem not hers, my life is my problem. Sorry maybe that sounds sort of hard. I felt empty that day when I left her office. I don't see her anymore. A therapist is not going to say to me "I will always be here no matter what happens to you".
I don't know where I am going with this. There is some element of trust that seems to factor into what you are saying. When a person uses a technique on another without disclosing that the technique is being used --and possibly before a personal connection has been made then...
..I don't know maybe it is reminiscent of something you have experienced in the past. "Fake love" or fake concern..
For me personally, I think I just got tired out on finding authentic in other people or even in myself. I guess it has been a long time since I have had a good relationship with anyone and since I have been through so much crap recently I focus on getting what I need and not the motivation behind the giving. BUT thats just me.
I had a boss that used a lot of management techniques on me but she did it in a way that seemed so friendly and personal that when I finally became wise to the techniques I felt a little betrayed BECAUSE I had not been using techniques on her. It did make me feel a little belittled or something. They are negotiation skills etc. that come out of text books or seminars and probably from people who study psychology.
Sometimes I just see interactions between me and other people as passing events now rather then relationships.
Some nights I laugh with one of the women at the shelter. I didn't really want to befriend her because she was addicted to meth and she wants to go back to her abusive boyfriend etc. etc. and I think to myself god, I don't want to be this persons friend, how can I have an authentic connection with someone like that? But she likes to laugh and she is really playful and I don't really understand how someone like that can have any play left in them. I would say the fleeting moments of exchange when we are laughing seem authentic to me.
Anyways that is my random rambling.
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Ya know, the fact that there is a definition of a "technique" that is used to try to "connect" to a patient/client/human being... doesn't eliminate the possibility of real caring when the "technique" is practiced. To me, I guess I'm saying that it's less important the reason why a connection is made between two people... than it is, that a connection is made at all. In the context of a book on psychotherapy, it makes sense that this frequent event between people is described this way - as a technique.
River, I can see how you might feel that use of a "technique" like this makes your interaction with your T some kind of science project instead of just two people together. But I also think we do this without thinking about it, all the time. For example, parents and kids... kids can get bored, restless and start picking fights with each other unless there is some structured activity breaking up an unstructured day. Parents will try to connect with the kid to find out if they're looking for physical activity, intellectual stuff - something "new" to them, or maybe they're ready to have a story read to them - the comfort of previously learned "comfort" routines.
If I am with a friend who's been upset by something, I (unconsciously, I guess) try to let them get out all the talk about it - the he said, she said details of the plot of the "story" - all the while listening with that part of my brain (again - it's not intentional) that can "hear" the emotional insult, or wound... and that can hear where it is. Sometimes, pride has been wounded. Sometimes, it's an expectation that was shattered. Sometimes - it's more a primary emotion from a pretty solid self-concept that seems to be strangling the person inside with each piece of evidence that apparently "confirms" that self-concept, which may/may not be totally accurate and they want me to think objectively for them; 'coz they're too emotional to do it on their own. And sometimes it's so many emotions, all I can do is just hug them, till they are ready to go on. That's the caring, empathetic side - the real feeling side - of the statement that struck you.
The description you posted is also how the experts define the bonding between a mom & her infant. In that process, a mom sort of "lends" her Rbrain to the infant as a pattern for the infant to develop, grow, and create the structure and ability to self-manage their own Rbrain - their emotions. At least, this is what happens with successful bonding or attachment. When something goes wonky in that process - at that age - then there's some "faulty programming" in the growing child. It can be overcome through interaction with others - at any age - so, I guess what I understand (and maybe no one agrees with this; that's OK) is that trying to make a connection with a patient in a therapy setting is one of the main reasons for even engaging in therapy. It IS an assessment tool for the therapist - it helps the therapist understand the capacity of the patient to connect to others; whether there is much fear in connecting, etc. Just like it would be for a parent-child relationship.
And I think overall, it's a GOOD thing, you know?
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I don't mind when shrinks use techniques, because I know they learned them for a reason.
So if I recognize my T is doing "mirroring" or asking questions I'm sure he learned...
with him, I'm not put off, because the man is still there.
I know that because I can make him laugh (that breaks the pose) and because he
once told me a few things about his own D's crises..when I was sharing about my D.
His pain over his own D came through, I felt his father heart. He didn't overshare but it was a human-to-human thing, that really helped me trust.
I ask about her now and then, but then I settle back into client mode because I don't want to make him uncomfortable.
The main reason I feel good with him is that his kindness is visible and I believe he is really a good person, doing this work for the right reasons, and his heart is what's using the tools.
Tools are okay, techniques aren't offensive. It's the heart that weilds them (or the lack of heart) that helps me know if I am safe.
that help, River? I think you can be safe even knowing your T has academic or professional "techniques" -- if you sense her heart is in her work.
Maybe you can tell her about that fear you had when you saw her article, how it touched on trust issues for you...
xo
Hops
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Hops,
This does hit the spot. I think techniques/ tools are the same thing, and they are fine depending on the spirit of how they are bein used. But then this thing ~ 'the spirit' is so hard to pin down and to prove. Because I always expereinced something wrong in that relationship, I read the ch. in that context. I both love her skills, and her understanding, but some thing in her was triggering me so badly.
In spite of what Im saying, I stll feel - something all wrong about what seems to be making emotional contact for its own sake, so the T. can 'get thro to you'. Ok, the it brings up all your unresolved stuff, so you can deal with it. But it felt to me like stirring things up fo r its own sake, ............. I cant quite explain, but all this is also helping me to formulate, and to work it out.
phoenix,
It IS an assessment tool for the therapist - it helps the therapist understand the capacity of the patient to connect to others; whether there is much fear in connecting, etc. Just like it would be for a parent-child relationship.
its wierd, because what you say makes sense, anb you put it so patiently, but even these words have a bit of the same effect, I dont want any T. to make emotional contact just as a test, or well, it depends, ...... Im healthily confused now
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River,
when you say maybe your T wanted to get power over you, well maybe she wanted to influence you, but that's not power/control. Or maybe she did want control? I don't know. But often 'professional' people have to write in such a cold, scientific cause and effect way because that's what their peer community wants. They have to use terms which set 'them' apart from 'us', I guess, which is probably all about professional insecurity.
Guest, thanks for this, but I think this is the problem, T.s shouldnt try to influence anyway, unless they first find out if you really need influencing, or if youi're already going in the right direction, otherwise they take initiative out of your hands.
And the other part is "doing it because thats what the peer communithy wants" .... this doesnt role model doing what reality actually is needed in a given situation, it role models compliance, or 'herd-hiding'. You hit these key issues - great insights.
Dr G.
backgrounds where the subtext in our family relationships was just plain lousy. So when a therapist says something supportive of us
YES. This is true for me. I think as a result, in those relationships with T.s in particular, the subtext hits me more than the 'above text'. I actuallly get sort of hypnotised by the subtext. And I actually get a bodily reaction. So, yes, I look for authenticity.
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..................cont............... reply to Dr G...........
I remember one session with my first therapist (well-known throughout the country) when I walked in in carpenter’s jeans and a t-shirt having been busy doing house repairs up until the very last minute. Up until then I had always come from the hospital in shirt and tie. His un-considered comment: “Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. This was more telling than anything else he had previously said to me. Not that he had ever been kind or supportive in the slightest. When I showed him pictures of my wedding (that occurred during our therapy), his only comment was when he stopped at a picture of my wife: “A bosomy wedding.” (BTW, I don’t think he had an oral fixation…)
well he sure as ~~~ seemed to have some kind of fixation! : )
I think my whole problem here was that she was great, in so many ways, but she hadnt sorted out all her own Nishness, and there were these subtexts that kept triggering me. It really seemed she was doing her best, I know she wanted to be helpful. I think I was recieving subtext that she wasnt aware of, or just didnt see it as I experienced it. And I was/ am so affected by her, it was wierd and wonderful, and interesting, but ultimately ~ I had to get out.
My dream is to be well enough, strong enough to go back, and the minute theres a subtext to catch it and stand by it, and not let a singl one past me. At present Im allowing time and tide, and learning as much as I can. And this has helped me a lot. Being able to discuss, air it, get helpful feedback and reflections. Im still not clear, of couse, but I feel less alone, and its taking the lid off the pressur cooker, or at least releasing some pressure bit by bit.
thanks to everyone, if I didnt respond to someone, I didnt intentionally by-pass you, I did read and appreciate all the shares.
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It's OK, River -
I went through a time when, anyone "making contact" or a connection for whatever reason scared the living daylights out of me and I'd immediately withdraw. For me, it was because that contact was poisonous; toxic... I'd been burned so many times thinking "OK, this is a safe relationship" - only it wasn't - that it became sort of a reflex reaction to just shut down, withdraw, or even zone out to "get away from" or escape that kind of connection. The association for me, was that kindness, caring, and the ability to actually connect was painful and led to all kinds of bad things - like boundary intrusions; gaslighting; and that subtle, deniable variety of emotional abuse.
My mind was telling me I was "supposed" to be open to that kind of connection and I could even see that I wanted/needed it pretty desperately... but my emotional mind was flashing "danger" - "danger" red lights and warning sirens... and gathering up my adrenalin to run as fast and as far in the other direction as possible. I've gone to some pretty amazing lengths to avoid positive connections in my life, when I couldn't reason my emotional mind into at least giving this new relationship a chance before I fled or defended myself with one of my collection of techniques for "being not there".
This is finally starting to change for me, but the depths of that fear and my ability to sacrifice my own needs for basic "survival" on any terms... is still a struggle. I thought maybe, this is similar to what your reaction was. Maybe it's not.
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My mind was telling me I was "supposed" to be open to that kind of connection and I could even see that I wanted/needed it pretty desperately... but my emotional mind was flashing "danger" - "danger" red lights and warning sirens... and gathering up my adrenalin to run as fast and as far in the other direction as possible. I've gone to some pretty amazing lengths to avoid positive connections in my life, when I couldn't reason my emotional mind into at least giving this new relationship a chance before I fled or defended myself with one of my collection of techniques for "being not there".
Yes, theres lots of similar with what you said. EXCEPT the above. What has been wierd for me is that to the degree that you wanted to run, I was attracted towards those relationships. In an addictive surreal hyper-real compulsive way. So, Id have the 'run for it' signals of danger going at the same time as the being drawn towards it signals, as you can imagine, a state of mind so intense that it can kill you. I had this imagery of the gazelle going up to the lion looking for love but KNOWING at the same time what would happen. : ( ~~~
Its like an addictin to a betrayal bond. thats the best I can explain. Not many people know about this, its kind of repetatition compulsion.
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I've got a lot more to say on this topic, so I hope I have time soon to start that thread...
but, yes River - to a lesser degree, I know just what you're talking about - I called it a "negative attachment"... like you say, being addicted to that thing, which part of you knows is going to hurt you.
Guest said it - our experience taught us that love = hurt.... and oh so many more negative things. I've been on a mission or quest, to figure out how to edit my reflexes that are based on this experience... without going too far to the other extreme... trying to find my personal "goldilocks" balance of being open, without being a doormat... being assertive, and expressing myself without being a total jerk. It's still a work in progress but I think I'm close to being able to describe what's been happening and how (sort of!) Point being - yeah... you can work on this and change it, if you want to enough. (And yeah, that "goldilocks" balance is going to be different for everyone - and maybe even for me, at different times.)
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Thanks Guest and Phoenix,- keep me posted on this one, would like to hear.
Well, thank God, I feel Im on the way out of this one too.
Phoenix, the trouble with 'wanting it enough... ' is this issue of the will. In my case it was literally 'the will turned against me, that is my own will turned against me', I could feel it, there was something inside me, I came to call it an internal sabotuer, that literally pulled me towards self-destruct. i had to fight it, but how can you fight your own will? theres nothing inside to fight with! , ... ... So, I guess the thing about 'wanting it enough' is paradoxical, ~ Its not so easy to explain, but talking here is helping me to articulate, I think...
thats where the recovering addict paradigm was the right thing for me, I had to turn to #God, and to others recovering, something different to reboot from. Howver, at that time I still didnt have a full understanding.
Guest, I have heard that one about 'familiar' a lot, and for some it probalby fits. To me, its about something deeper than familiar. It feels like coming home, true, but its more like trying to get a psychic splinter out. But yeah, .
...this also....
balance of being open, without being a doormat...
me too, learning to live from a different basis... However, I needed resolution first before I could live in a better way. Its a long story, kind of hard to get the full meaning into unerstandable shape, ...
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Hey River.
I didn't read through all the dialogue here, a bit frazzled...
But I just thought:
You are looking for unconditional love.
That's the bruised space in you. So it's terrifying.
I just go back to--practice on yourself. Your little inner River.
Conjure her up...feel her small arms come around your neck when you bend over and tell her, face to face, with your deepest gentleness and calm, "I am so sorry you were hurt. But I am here with you now. And I will never leave you. You are good, through and through. I love you."
I think this exercise fixes fear.
When you do this for your little inner girl...more than once, you become your OWN conduit for that kind of love.
Then, any love you get elsewhere, including from a T -- is extra. Not what you need to survive, but grace.
Love (yup),
Hops
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OK, river....
I think I'll go start my thread and you (and everyone else) is welcome to chime in; add your thoughts, suggestions and experiences - and what works for you. I'd put it all here, but the only way I can deal with it at all, is from a "me-me-me" place... tho' I fully expect I'm gonna jump around a lot from an analytical, rational point of view to the raw emotional dreck, and all places in between.
I started working on this, just the way Hops' described in her post. Years ago. And something significant has recently shifted, realigned, or perhaps from the neuropsych perspective: integrated. It's still wobbly and fuzzy though; not solid yet. Maybe with enough of us talking about it, we'll all benefit.
Yet, it's still scary for me to make myself - on purpose - this vulnerable. But I think that's also part of the process... sort of a desensitization... through "doing", finding out that there wasn't anything to be afraid of (except old memories of other circumstances) and that the real experience is something quite different.
I do "know" what you're talking about river, about having an opposing will in yourself. It's been awhile since I actually worked through something on the board (been on a long "rest" break and letting my brain do some higher-level learning & processing) with everyone's help. But in the last few months, this very topic has been bubbling up and there's a strong motivation or wish that's moving me to "finish" and finally deal with this topic.