Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: JustKathy on November 10, 2010, 03:03:49 PM
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I hope this makes sense. I'm trying to sort through a lot of feelings about things I hear in the media that are just making me really really angry.
In the last year or so, I've noticed the word "narcissist" being thrown around the in the media as if the condition is as commonplace (and sometimes as benign) as a head cold. It seems to be the latest trendy buzz word used in celebrity bashing, second only to Botox. Just in the last few weeks, I've heard Paris Hilton is a narcissist, Linsday Lohan is a narcissist, Charlie Sheen is a narcissist, Snooki is a narcissist. It goes on and on. A few days ago I was watching Kelsey Grammer's bitter ex-wife on a talk show, and one of the first things out of her mouth was, "Well, he was very difficult to live with because he was such a narcissist." The WORST was a few months ago on Joy Behar's show. The guest was the woman who hosts the Millionaire Matchmaker reality show, and in talking about one of the bachelors, she said he had NPD, "Narcissistic Perfectionist Disorder." What? Is there even such a thing?
Anyway, this is making things really hard on me, because every time I tell someone that my mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, the general reaction is that oh, my mother is a spoiled brat, like Lindsay Lohan. How could that possibly have hurt me?
Last Christmas, I finally came clean with my closest cousin, and told him that I had gone NC with my mother because she had abused me. I had his sympathy, until I mentioned Narcissistic Perfectionist Disorder. That was when he said, "Well, your mother has always been pretty demanding of attention, but is that any reason to cut ties with her?"
So I guess I'm wondering two things.
1. Is there such a thing as "just being a narcissist?" Meaning being full of yourself, having a sense of entitlement, being a spoiled brat. OR . . .
2. Are these members of the media completely misinformed and have no idea what a narcissist really is?
This is very distressing to me, because when I finally do confide in someone, they think Mom was just a little eccentric and that I'm overreacting. No one equates narcissism with abusive behaviour of any kind. How do I tell people (outsiders, not Ts or fellow N victims) that there's a huge difference between young bratty celebrities, and the mentally ill world of a child abusing woman with NPD?
Kathy
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Thanks CB. I don't often tell people what is wrong with my mother, but I've found that even "personality disorder" can often sound benign, as in "How bad could that be? You couldn't just deal with it?" When I told my dentist, I had to use the words "mentally ill." He's known NM for 30 years and always seemed to sense that she wasn't right, so mentally ill cemented it, and he got it.
But for people who are just friends, it's seems impossible to make anyone understand why or how you could cut yourself off from your mother. Society just won't accept it. Look at how Angelina Jolie has been vilified for ceasing contact with her father. No one ever gives her the benefit of a doubt. It's always, "Wow, what a heartless thing to do to her own father."
Sometimes I wish my mother had some other disorder. I don't know what, schizophrenia, or something a little more clinical sounding. I just hate the way the word narcissist is being tossed around like it's a bad hair cut or something. It's almost become trendy to say it. Maybe if it's just a trend, it won't last, and the media will move on to some new word to describe celebrity brats. Sigh . . .
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JK: I totally agree with your frustration with the misuse of the term. I liken it to the term "racist." It is so misused and overused these days, it's really pathetic. I hate it in fact. It goes back to being over politically correct. I got in trouble for saying during a conversation about gang infested areas of a neighborhood near where I lived, I said: "the ghetto is a dangerous place to be at night..." I was called a racist quite quickly and everyone stared at me; I was so heartbroken by their comment that I decided to wage a campaign against the person(s) that misuse the term and all it's literal meaning, etc. An observation can not be "racism" and the resulting reaction to the observation is also not racism. It is the belief that one ENTIRE race or people, or another, or many people(s) is inferior to another, or different race. The fact that a neighborhood is crime ridden and I fear that particular area is not "racism" nor does it make me a "racist." People in the media throw around the word "racist" like it's the lawful comeback to anything said about any fact or experience regardless if it includes ANY person's race or where their roots originate. Stereotyping is another chapter in another book which explain the reasons behind stereotyping and why our brains are wired to stereotype in general - all for survival reasons, not because we are mean spirited or because we "hate" or believe someone is "less" than us or another person. I think that way of thinking is accusatory, self-righteous and naive.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread. :? People frustrate me with throwing these terms around. If people would just learn the proper meaning of "Narcissist" or "Racist" perhaps they wouldn't attach it to any Tom, Dick & Harry that shows up in life.
I believe that people do not understand the magnitude of the words they use. They just say it to be cool or sound intelligent or to beat someone down. They haven't the slightest clue as to the "actual" meaning/definition of the word. They are stupid for saying it. Period.
Thanks for letting me rant.
Bear
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Bear
I'm smiling. I might not agree with everything you've said but the majority, spot on. Nice!
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she said he had NPD, "Narcissistic Perfectionist Disorder." What? Is there even such a thing?
I hate to disagree with the smart and sagacious CB 123 but there is indeed something called Narcissistic Perfectionist Disorder.
It is always comorbid with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and consists of the single clinically disgusting trait (that's technical medical jargon) of demanding perfection in everyone else on the planet but excusing, ignoring or otherwise not acknowedging the most egregious and despicable faults in themselves.
mud
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she said he had NPD, "Narcissistic Perfectionist Disorder." What? Is there even such a thing?
..........and consists of the single clinically disgusting trait..........
mud
I do love it when you talk clinical medical jargon, Mud; )
Lighter
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Well, I'll take your word for it, Mud....but I couldnt find anything on it. I thought it was just sloppy labeling. Yeah...narcissism seems to come with perfectionism....one of the reasons I think they are so delusional about who they are is because they cant face the shame of not being perfect. Somewhere they got the idea that "normal" is "perfect", so "imperfect" is "less than normal". Too shameful to contemplate.
I think that narcissist and NPD are thrown around interchangeably... I dont know if they should be or not. But I do know that there are a lot of people that get narcissistic that arent personality disordered. Even those of us who do the amount of navel gazing we do, do it because we think we are important enough to have our navel gazed at. Somewhat narcissistic..and definitely only available to those of us with a lot of time on our hands. :shock:
CB
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I hate to disagree with the smart and sagacious CB 123 but there is indeed something called Narcissistic Perfectionist Disorder.
No kidding? I assumed that this was just a misuse of the term, because the person who said it was incredibly stupid ( a dating reality show host), and was spouting all kinds of nonsense, so I didn't give it any credence.
I think that narcissist and NPD are thrown around interchangeably... I dont know if they should be or not.
It definitely hurts those of us who are victims of NPD. With the media using both terms so casually, I doubt that the average viewer understands that someone with NPD has a true mental illness, and is terribly abusive to their children and/or spouse. I constantly hear Paris Hilton referred to as a narcissist because she's a spoiled rich kid who is enamored with herself. But I doubt she's ever tormented a child. These days, I just tell people that I've cut contact with my mother because she's mentally ill. The words "mentally ill" sound serious to most people, where "narcissist" is shrugged off as a joke.
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Guys, I was just being a smart arse, as usual. :P
It was just a mislabeling but it sure is an apt description for the perfection these chucklehead Ns demand in others but never in themselves.
mud
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Guys, I was just being a smart arse, as usual.
Heh heh! You had me going. I guess I have SDD (Sarcasm Deficiency Disorder). :lol:
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Hey Kath,
I know that urge to want to be able communicate so that others will understand. What works for me - and what most people can grasp and is about all they really need to know to "get it" - is to tell them that my mom was emotionally abusive.
This phrase communicates what I need it to - that my relationship with my mother sucks and I prefer to keep my distance and that I could go into all the gory details, but it's all rather personal. The word "abusive" usually stops all the attempts to "blame the victim" or discount my feelings about what I went through and completely separates stories like ours from just garden-variety stuckup snobs, spoiled brats, and attention-seekers.
And the phrase is vague enough - broad enough - to cover NPD, Borderline Personality Disorder, Socio/Psychopaths, plain ignorance (which can be bad in it's own way), extreme depression.... all those variations on a wicked theme that can make a child's life pure hell.
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Often I'll tell people who aren't all that close to me that I'm estranged from my parents because they abused me - no other word - just abuse. That will usually shut it down. I have had people snicker at the term "emotional abuse." Very sad, but I don't think emotional abuse is taken seriously by people, or at least not as seriously as it should be. I think the general public pictures two very distinct things: emotional abuse means that you were picked on, physical abuse means you were beaten or molested. I'm not sure that emotional abuse will ever be taken as seriously as physical abuse, and not just by the general public, but by therapists, social workers, etc. A child who has bruises on their body will be removed from a home by Social Services, but will they do ANYTHING about emotional abuse? I'm not sure that they would.
My NM did abuse me physically as well as emotionally. The majority of it was emotional, but there was physical abuse in the form of neglect, mostly when I was in high school. There were several occasions when I was denied medical care as a punishment. My chronic tonsillitis was never treated because it was my punishment for "kissing boys." I also had chronic bronchitis, which went untreated because it was my punishment for smoking cigarettes (to this day, I've never touched a cigarette). When I was very young, she would have my father spank me for things I didn't do. She'd make up a story, and tell him to punish me for it. I realize that back in the 60s spanking was the norm, but I still consider it abuse. When it sticks with you forty years later, it's abuse.
I'm rambling, but I guess given the circumstances (and peoples' attitudes) leaving the word "emotional" out of it works best for me. I've gotten a lot of eye rolls over the word "emotional," like I'm just overreacting. People really have no idea how incredibly damaging emotional abuse can be. Given the choice, I would have rather been physically beaten than emotionally tormented. At least it would have stopped at 18 when I moved out. Emotional abuse stays with you for your entire life, until the abuser finally dies. There's nothing you can do to escape it. Even going NC doesn't stop it.
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OK, I get that. But I've not experienced the eye-rolling reaction from people - in fact, given a couple of the less complicated examples I have, people seem to immediately understand. And then, tell me their own stories! Whether a boss, an ex-husband or boyfriend... it is so prevalent, that people seem to instinctively understand. Then again, I don't introduce myself to people as "I was emotionally abused", either! LOL! The people I've told are very close trusted friends.
Emotional abuse stays with you for your entire life, until the abuser finally dies. There's nothing you can do to escape it. Even going NC doesn't stop it.
I don't entirely agree with this statement, as it stands. For me, making the shift from being focussed on the evils perpetrated against me... to trying to figure what I needed - then & now - and trying to find ways to meet those needs; helped me get more out from under the effects of the abuse, than I would've thought possible at one time. It was a long slow gradual process, though. And I'm still working on it, too. I can still be blindsided - but I bounce back quicker now.
There is hope for escape, in other words.
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I guess what I'm saying is that they won't let you escape without a fight. Yes, you CAN escape it, but they won't roll over and play dead, and simply allow you to walk away. I've been NC for seven years, which HAS worked out well for me, but the more I ignore her, the more NM turns up the heat . . . letters, emails, going after my husband, having Co-F go after my husband. Even though I can and do choose to ignore it, their attempts at pushing my buttons will not stop until they're dead. Until that time, the letters will keep coming. I can choose to not open them, but I can't stop them from being sent.
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Hi Kathy,
There's one more small step you might begin to take.
Every time an unwanted letter comes, write on the envelope: Refused.
And put it back in the post.
It may take some repetitions, but if it's clear to the sender that it's a complete waste of time because they can't even fantasize that you're opening the envelope, that might be progress...
Hops
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Every time an unwanted letter comes, write on the envelope: Refused.
I've thought of doing that, but the reason I don't is that it will give her ammunition to use against me. She'd show it to all of my relatives, put on the crocodile tears, and cry to everyone, "I sent Kathy this beautiful birthday card that I picked out myself, and she ripped my heart out by sending it back. Why is she so mean to her mother? Waaaaaaaaaa . . ." I'm sure you can picture the Oscar-winning performance.
What my T suggested (and what I've been doing), is having my husband open them and pre-screen them. If they're bad, they go in a box to read later (or not). But I don't want to give her anything that can be used against me. In fact, one year she sent one of her boxes of unwanted Christmas gifts, and actually taunted us to send them back, so I know she wants that. She'll use it as a weapon in her smear campaign. I'm not going to give her the satisfaction.
Kathy
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Hi Kathy,
I've been NC now for four years and they still drive by my house and send stuff to my boy. It doesn't bother me like it used to. To be honest I get where I feel sorry for my mum now - her life must be so empty and bitter. One thing I found that did help a bit was I used to give myself a little treat anytime something happened - buy myself something or go out or do something nice with my boy. One day was really funny, I saw a dress I liked and found myself hoping she'd write so I'd have an excuse to go and buy it!
I've had a couple of bits this year - a couple of emails, a package on the doorstep and a couple of things other people have sent me to her address that she's forwarded on. It would obviously be much easier for her to give those people my address, but then she loses the control and she can't risk them hearing the truth from me - how would that be? But you're right, they don't just give up and go away. My sister always said to me that the thing that irritates them most is no reaction at all - nothing that they can hold on to. For a long time I threw things away without opening them. Now I find I can open it, read it, bin it and forget all about it. So I'm hoping that you can get there, too. (((((((((Kathy)))))))))))))))))
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Dang.
Yes, I can imagine it.
I don't know what the perfect solution is but you're doing the best you can.
I find the unwanted mail (like email) a really triggering notion. Feels like such an invasion...
I remember feeling near-panic over a registered letter from my socioNbro during our legal battle. I was frozen on the doorstep in fear of the mailman's trying to hand it to me. Took me some time but I told the mailman I thought there would be some trickery or "gotcha" involved because of a legal situation and I didn't know what to do. He was a kindly older man and told me, "Why don't you think about it and I'll come back in a few hours..." Gave me time to call my attorney, who agreed with me that he didn't trust my brother either, and there was no reason I had to accept an unwanted communication outside of the legal process, so I wrote "Refused" and snuck a tiny note beneath the return address: "Please convey to Mr. X--(my attorney)" while the kindly mailman looked the other way.
I'll never forget the feelings it engendered. Later, it occurred to me his use of the postal service was another subtle example of "bullying by proxy". My bro had done everything he could to use slander, authorities, neighbors, anybody he could get to listen to his conspiracy stuff...to intimidate me. Fortunately it did not work and about six months after that letter attempt, he did sign a settlement. (But when we were settling the property, which I shipped to him...the original plan had been for him to come collect it all. Finding out he would not find me at home, but teams of two adults who were going to be present to protect my interests...he chickened out. He told his attorney (who told mine): "If I have to come there someone will wind up having to call the police." Bluster and bullying to the end of it.
I'll never forget that realization. I DID NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT HIS LETTER! I understand that wouldn't fit your situation though. I do think you deserve the serenity of no "mailbox attacks".
Anyway, forgive the digression all about meeeeeeeeeeee.
I think the topic of how Ns and bullies use mail and email is a big one, though.
Thank you for sharing this painful struggle to defend your "shield" -- your serenity -- against this.
hugs,
Hops
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And we can decide to refuse a lot more than unwanted mail or email or phone calls...
it was a good day, when I could take one of my mom's regular monologue calls - and it didn't affect me at all. Since it's all about her anyway - why should I care or be upset? That is who she is and I reckon that if I am in the process of defining myself sans her projections, expectations and input... I can also allow her to be who she is. Doesn't mean I have to like her or always drop everything for her, though.
I don't allow her that much power over me or how I feel, as much as I am able. It's something I practice - and someday hope to master. It helps to "consider the source", you know?
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This may sound odd, but I've actually found NM's letters to be very validating. They're pages of rants, every word textbook NPD. It's written proof that she's mentally ill, right there in her own handwriting. Anyone who reads her letters can see that I 'm not the crazy one. You can actually pick out every one of the known N traits in just one letter . . . gaslighting, delusions of grandeur, triangulation . . . it's all there. I've taken several of them to my psychiatrist, and she has kept copies of them to study, often picking out subtle things that I missed. She concluded from one of the letters that NM was also a sociopath as well as an N. (Going off on a tangent here, but a sociopath has many of the same characteristics of an N http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html).
I'd almost say that it's empowering to have these letters in my possession. Who knows, one day I might write a book, or pass them on to a psychiatric journal, or make them available to a psych major working on a thesis. They're my letters and I can do what I want with them.
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doesn't sound odd at all Kathy! I wish I had something tangible like that, as proof. Evidence that I'm not exaggerating, not being "overly sensitive", that it's all a misunderstanding because of different perspectives...
if only there were a court of justice, where letters like that could be admitted into court and at least a resolution passed down:
"Be it known to all men (and women) that after great study and deliberation, a jury of her peers and this court deem the parent in question to be morally corrupt, emotionally ill, and a danger to mankind..." At the very least. There is no way reparations or damages could be levied, though. You can't get blood from a stone... and the currency of those kinds of damages (love and remorse) doesn't even register in a sick person's reality at all.
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I had a big fire one day and burnt letters and photos, and cleared out loads of stuff she gave me and took it to the charity shop. It was very cathartic. I kept one vase because I actually did really like it and I thought it could be a symbol of the one time she put some thought into something she bought. About a week later I found out about an accusation she'd made against me about three years earlier. She'd bought me the vase later that month. At first I thought perhaps she'd felt bad about what she'd done - but then I wondered if she did just so she'd look good to other people and they wouldn't suspect her accusations were false. Oddly enough, the same afternoon the cat knocked it off the mantlepiece and it smashed. I took that as a sign :)
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Oddly enough, the same afternoon the cat knocked it off the mantlepiece and it smashed. I took that as a sign
LOL. Yep, I'd say that was a sign!
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Easy for me to say, since my mother has died, and the Nbro is out of my life forever...
...but wouldn't it be wonderful to get to the place where you know your own truth, you feel no defensiveness about whatever boundaries you need to set to show reverence for the gift of your life, you automatically protect your serenity in any way you need to without apology or hesitation....
and never needed to hoard evidence because you don't need to prove anything to anyone else or have their approval, ever?
(I ain't completely there either. But it felt good to write....)
xo
Hops
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Aw, Hops, I think I'm going to print that out and stick it on my wall as a reminder of my ultimate goal :) That could be a mantra for anyone who's ever been made to believe that they don't count :(
I would love to get to that place, and I am on my way but I still have a long way to go. I was talking to my T last week, and explaining that I have a constant three way conversation in my head. I have my thought about what I'm actually doing at the time, my mother's negative commentary running alongside it pointing out how I'm doing it all wrong (or making comments about how snobby I am because I'm getting it all right) and then my 'new' voice, which is correcting the negative one and reassuring the 'in the moment' one. It's like being a mental ventriloquist and soooooo tiring! So I would love to get to a place where the only voice in my head is the one saying "Wow, that sunset is beautiful" and then being able to just accept and enjoy that moment without anything else getting in my way.
Thank you, Hops ((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))
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So I would love to get to a place where the only voice in my head is the one saying "Wow, that sunset is beautiful" and then being able to just accept and enjoy that moment without anything else getting in my way.
That's it; I think that's what we all want! And how each of us gets to that place is different; maybe even happens without us noticing it - until after the fact and "we don't do that anymore". No secret recipe or discipline or method or how-to booklet....
One thing I think contributed to my getting another inch or two closer to that, is starting to be grateful for each & every miniscule little bit of progress I make - even if it's not permanent! When I compare "me-today" with me before I started dealing with all this... well, yeah it seems like it took a lot of time and there were additional life-changes that sort of pushed me along into new things... but bottom line, I'm way better off than I was... less miserable, reactionary, trigger-able, less of a time bomb ready to go off on someone else - or blow my own self up.
Every little bit of that is a blessing and something I'm thankful for. Even the stuff I still struggle with, I can imagine myself being thankful for the opportunity to work on it (myself)... for me, this was one change that seemed to spread subtle change through me and how I perceived the world & events & people in it. And now, I can stand and watch the full moon rise over the ocean and when someone asks what I'm doing - just say "looking - isn't it pretty?" (and not feeling like a twit, or self-conscious or out of place or like some borderline wacko...)
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I agree completely, Phoenix. I've still got a lot of work to do but I am so different to how I was ten years ago, and so grateful for that. I feel that there is a light at the end of the tunnel - even if it is dim and very far away at times!
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and never needed to hoard evidence because you don't need to prove anything to anyone else or have their approval, ever?
I hope I can get to that place one day. Part of my hoarding evidence is that, I think, somewhere in the back of my mind, I feel like one day I'll have the chance to prove to some of my favorite aunts and uncles that NM really did abuse me, and that it wasn't my fault, and that everything will be good again. Then I have to slap myself and say "Hey, wake up. It's never going to happen." As much as I love some of my aunts, well, where were they when they sensed (and I KNOW they sensed) that things were NOT right with NM? Some of these relatives stood idly by, knowing that I was being tormented, and I'm pretty sure that some of them will go to their graves not knowing the whole truth, because they don't WANT to know the truth. And yet, I still feel this need, and this hope, that one day I can prove that NM was wrong, and win their approval, and . . . why? Do they even care?
I've still got a lot of work to do but I am so different to how I was ten years ago, and so grateful for that.
I do feel that I'm a much different person now than I was ten years ago. Things still get to me, and still hurt me very badly, but I'm at a stage where I DO get over it with time. Ten years ago I felt pity for my Co-F, and even though I was angry at him for the hurt he caused me, I would cave in and call him on holidays, or visit, or whatever, because I felt so sorry for him being "brainwashed" by NM. Now when he calls, and I don't answer, I still feel bad, and I still hurt, but . . . I DON'T ANSWER. I've reached the point where I can listen to him ramble into the answering machine, and instead of feeling pity, I feel very justified in blowing him off. I'm now okay with letting him have a birthday or a holiday without getting to talk to his daughter. He called today to wish us a Happy Thanksgiving, and ended the message with "It sure would be nice if you'd talk to your parents every now and then." Well, guess what Dad? It sure would be nice if you hadn't disinherited your daughter out of spite, and it sure would be nice if you'd apologize for using your belt on her because your wife said to. I don't know if I'll ever reach a place where I don't feel pain, but it's becoming easier to not feel guilt. And that's pretty huge.
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Yep; it's huge indeed, Kathy!!
I'm happy for you.