Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lupita on November 17, 2010, 06:31:32 AM
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I was sick in the hospital for four days. My N boyfriend was with me all the way. All night and day. Drove to the hospital everyday and stayed until he was kicked out. Supported me.
Sunday I was released and he brought me to his home to recover.
Monday his ex-wife came and spent three hours with him while I was lying down on his bed upstairs. She constantly comes to visit him. He chooses to keep her around. She has a lover. She lives with him, but she still comes an visit the house where they lived together for so many years. Almost 30. I have only one year with him.
But, when I am not here, I am at my apartment, and they get together in the privacy of the home where they spent so many years together, does she touch him? Does she try to have sex with him?
How can he be so insensitive to leave me in his room and spend three hours downstairs with her? “talking” I know it was “talking” because I was in and out of the room several times. So, they were just “talking”, but when they are alone, …..
My question, what is in there for me?
Now I am sure that Nism is in the genes because all his children are Ns.
His daughter 25 years old, said on the phone to him and he spoke so loud that I could not help to hear, “she better not be there when I come to visit”, she was talking about me.
I told him, “my son would never talk to me that way”
Now it is going to be Thanks Giving and it is our one year anniversary, we have been one year together.
His other son is coming to visit and he told him that he does not want me around. But I am here recovering from being in the hospital after a bad experience of intestinal obstruction and food poisoning, and pneumonia.
The worst thing is that he told him that he was flying in last night. M was worried, keeping his phone all the time, and he did not call, he did not come, he stayed in the middle of the road to attend a basketball game of his ex university with friends. He found out through facebook.
Those children are evil and M needs so much approval of them that makes me sick.
I told him, if you kick me out and allow your children over 30 years old to govern our life, it will be the last time.
Now, he helps me when I need. I need the help that nobody else gives me. I need the company that nobody else gives me. He is the first boyfriend and serious relationship I have in twenty years.
Should I ignore all of this just to keep the part that I want?
By the way. His flirting is almost nothing. He does not flirt like he used to. He only plays around like I do, and does not flirt in a malicious way like he used to. It has been three months since the last time he flirted. And before that, it was another two months. He used to flirt every single night we got together. He has changed so much. He does not go out without me anymore.
So, he has made some changes. Am I making excuses or I am giving him credit for what he deserves credit?
Somebody help me here. CB where are you? MO2, Hop, PR, my friends, where are you?
Miss you.
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Hi Lupe:
So glad to see you.... but sorry about the recent health issues.
Sounds like it was bad.
Look, the holidays and the kids and the flirting are all things that orbit around you and M, right?
You're still calling him an N.
You're calling his children N's.
Your upset that his wife is a stationary part of his life.
I'm having a hard time figuring out how much good there is compared to the bad.
I guess it comes down to your boundaries and expectations.
Have you done a pro v con list lately?
((((Lupita))))
Sounds like you're feeling better.
I'm so glad: )
Lighter/Mo2
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Hi Lup,
So sorry you've been sick, and it sounds like it was really scary!
I don't know what to tell you about your bf, unfortunately.
I know it would be hard for me to merge into a family where kids ordered their father about.
I'm not sure I'd handle that well. But I think the big issue is whether you could completely
let go of trying to control him, or them, so you could be at peace in the relationship.
Nobody else can answer that question for you, but I do advise you to continue with the therapist
you mentioned you'd found.
The idea of being alone in life is very hard. I like Lighter's idea of a list of Pros and Cons.
That can really help you see, or somehow help your inner self communicate to your
"mental" self.
Stay well, keep healing, keep going to therapy...
xo
Hops
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I watched the video that Hops posted of sam vacning. M has many of the traits he has.
Thank you Mo2 and Hops.
He took care of me when I needed. it is not the only time he has helped me in a moment of great need. It has been several times.
He gives me company most of the time.
He casues me stress. Is stress a personal choice?
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His son did not want to come here to visit because of my presence. He told his son that he did not have anything to do with me, that we were only friends. His son came. His son observed that we are not only friends. His son is saying that he is going away to some other place with friends. The daughter does not even want to visit at all if I am here. The ex wife was here yesterday while I went to the doctor. They all went shopping together. She stayed five hours with M. And the son. M chooses to keep her around. He ( I think) likes to have her around. Sometimes I feel like a piece of furniture that can be pushed away and pull in back at his convenience. He wanted to send me to my apartment for the ten days of my vacation. Just because the son was here. I said, I will go and never come back. Then he did not let me leave. I visit him when I am tired after work, practice dance with him, make him look well in the dance floor, help him when he has back pain. Why should I have to spend my vacation alone? If that is the case I prefer to leave him forever.
So, having somebody during vacation is extremely important for me. Holidays are extremely important for me. Besides thank giving is our anniversary. Why to celebrate our anniversary with his ex wife in the house?
Why would he want to have a thanks giving with his children and his ex wife and me in his house? Nobody wants that.
Last year we hooked up because we were alone for thanks giving. Why no celebrate our anniversary?
Suddenly he wants to have thanks giving with all people? The x wife has a lover and she wants to spend it with that man. What is wrong with him? He is jealous that my son loves me to pieces and wants to compete with me?
Somebody help me understand this imbroglio.
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Lupita:
It sounds like you stood your ground on being sent away over your vactation.
You stated the boundary, and he caved in, but not what he wanted to do.
Let's look at what he wanted to do:
1) Send you away bc his grown son wants you out of his father's life. This might be very odd, or it might mean that M is saying things about you behind your back to his family. Is there any reason that his son would want you out of his father's life, that you can think of? Any real reason? It seems that the mother having a live in lover makes it less likely that M and his son want M and his ex to get back together.
2) He wants the entire crowd together for Thanksgiving, even though it seems innapropriate and uncomfortable on several levels. Would the ex's lover be there as well? How do the kids feeel about him?
Does M not know what's apporpriate? Maybe he doesn't. Maybe uncomfortable is where he feels comfortable?
For that matter, maybe feeling uncomfortable, which is where you seem to be with M a lot of the time, is where you want to be, bc it feels comfortable to you?
You have to sit down, make a list of what you're willing to deal with, and lay it out for M, in my opinion.
Along with that comes laying out consequences, and standing behind them if he crosses your boundary.
If you don't intend to enforce a consequence, then don't make that threat.
((((Lupita)))) It's good to hear you've been dancing, and receiving some care.
Lighter
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I know a lot of people who WOULD like this, Lupita...feeling that the holiday is all about togetherness and family (even ex-es, in some cases--I would've enjoyed that too if mine had lived, though not as much as your bf enjoys his--just saying some exes do stay close) and inclusion. Not so much a "couple" thing:
Why would he want to have a thanks giving with his children and his ex wife and me in his house? Nobody wants that.
love,
Hops
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Hi Lup sweetie! Sorry I've been preoccupied with some life stuff.
Here's what I'm hearing in what you wrote - let me know where I didn't hear right, OK?
M sounds like he's pretty non-traditional; non-conventional. Where you are more conventional & traditional in keeping holidays, etiquette, manners, social conventions, etc. That's bound to make both you uncomfortable at times! It also sounds like M's family is important to him - divorce or no divorce. Many people divorce and still maintain close relationships with an ex; only some go completely NC. It could be that these aspects of M are what you find attractive - the importance of family; the non-traditional, throw out all the rules of "how to be" side of him. That, by the way, leads me to think that you may be judging him a little harshly by throwing "N" into your description of him.
On the other side of things - it sounds as though he cares a great deal for you to devote himself to you through your recovery. You are becoming important to him, too. Maybe not quite as important as his children; they are after all his kids - no matter how they treat him, you know? And of course, you don't have as much life history with him as his ex does. That old history connection may very well be why he maintains this relationship with his ex - and not so much a romantic, sexual connection, as you might fear.
All my surmising here - on the little that you've described - makes me want to give M the benefit of doubt. I imagine that his feelings are complex; maybe even a bit conflicted about what he wants... about boundaries and rules. You obviously care for him a great deal, also. So, if all this is anywhere close to reality... why not stop trying to make him into someone else? You can't make his family go away - nor his natural feelings for them. If you want to be a part of his life, too - then you will have to accept some kind of compromise with the other parts of his life. Exactly what that compromise turns out to be, is probably impossible to plan out on paper. I expect it won't be very traditional. You'll have to wing it, with his input. Because, you know, to be with someone means you have to respect their feelings, wants, boundaries, etc too... just the way you want them to respect you.
I've done the blended family situation a couple of times. The one thing I know for sure, is that it requires loosening up the expectations, wants, and ideas about "how things should be" - especially when it comes to traditions and holidays. And even the shape of the relationship isn't the romantic, ideal picture either. It can't be when there are children involved; no matter how old they are. There has to be flexibility, trust in exceptional situations beyond normal relationship roles, and intentional, non-threatening communication. The last one is the most important, I think; it helps support and grow all the rest.
To help you decide whether or not you are comfortable with things as they are, why not ask him directly about his relationship with his previous family? Ask him about his feelings and why the relationship with the ex is important to him? What is he talking about with her? the kids? Ask him how he sees you fitting into the picture.... and then, go think about that for a bit by yourself.
Weigh that on the other side of the scale with what you want with him and how you feel about him. Do you care enough for him, to allow him to keep some kind of relationship with people who important to him? What do you see that relationship consisting of?
Then, go back to him and tell him about your feelings and what you've thought about. And see if there isn't a chunk of common ground - what you both want together - to consider a starting point for negotiating, and finding compromise between you for the other things that are making feel unsure and uncomfortable.
Hope this helps, Lup - he sounds like he might be a "good one" to hang on to, so you might have to edit your romantic dreams a little. I've found that if you can do this, you discover some great treasures this way!
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Lighter, the ex-wife’s lover will not be here. This woman, according to M, lives with a man and his wife, they are swingers, and belong to the only nudist camp here in the area. I know that the nudist camp is true. He let me use scrap paper for my studies and I found a copy of that woman contract with the nudist camp.
M says that she comes here because the kids would no go see her anywhere. So, the only way for her to see her kids is coming to the house when they are here.
I would say that if they see her kids or not it is not M’s problem, it should not be. She should fix that problem. Not M.
So, I left them for seven hours the other day. I went to different errands and what happened? The ex came. They went shopping together. The kids walk together and the ex and M walk together. So, I give him time and instead of spending time with his children the first thing he does is spend time with the ex.
I think he wants to re-live his family life, although his children are over 25 yo.
Hops, you are right, blended families is going to be something very difficult.
PR, you are right. He might be someone to keep. That is the only reason I continue with this Endeavour. Because I think that way too. Few men take care of women in need, When they see a woman in need they run away. M helps, blends me with his family, brothers, mother, kids, ex-wife, etc. That sounds like a good man to me, It is just the other aspect that I have to re-evaluate like Lighter says, pros and cons.
Is the sense of belonging too important to put up with his dementia? Because the things he does I think are result of dementia. Like trying to organize a thanks giving that he has not done in years, why now? Just to ruin our anniversary? We were alone last year. And that is why we hooked up. Because we were alone during thanks giving day. I thought we were going to do the same and he surprised me . It seems that he does not want me to have peace.
CB, I think the way you are is because you have several children and if is not one it is another, so they will always keep you busy. I only have one and he is engaged and he is crazy about his girlfriend, and he has little time for me. I do not mind that. I want him happy.
Also, CB, you were raised in USA, so your mentality has to be a little more liberal than mine. I do not understand how can you hook up with a Mexican and understand each other. That to me is a miracle. He is happy with you because you have nothing to do with your ex. If you ex was around, he would not be very happy. Now, I am an expert in latin lovers. If you want advice about him, I can give you a lot of wisdom. They are selfish. I am very happy for you and for the Mexican guy who got you, he is very lucky to have you. Any man would be lucky to have you. I bet he wont let you go because he knows your value.
But, the fact that I suffer about M’s ex is like you say, ti pushes buttons of my insecurities. She is not more intelligent than me, She does not have education, she is not pretty, she is overweight, and she has a lover, she wants to have his Thanks givng with her lover and come here late. But M wants her here and she does not want. She only comes here when I am at work. I have talked to her in person twice. She deos not seem to me like a bad person by M satanize her when talking to me. But he writes her nice e mails and M cannot do one single step without asking her for her opnion. He cannot even post an add in craigs list without talking to her first. I am very disappointed of M.
M feels my disappointment, and he feels my lack of respect in a very subtle way and he treats me bad to compensate that.
My son and his GF are cooking for TG too and I have to go ther during the day, If M does not go with me I am going to be very happy. If he goes with me, I am going to be very happy. If I have to spend a dinner with the ex I am going to be very stressed.
So, that is where I am. Is this worth it? Like Lighter says, pros and cons. My therapist which I have not seen in several months, said that M is a used car that I will use until I get new one.
I wish I did not have to think that way.
You guys talking to me, is being very helpful. Now, I only need help to find out what to do next. How to create a life of peace. Help me out.
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Why does M needs so much aproval from his kids? It should be the other way. Why does M needs so much aproval from his brothers?
Why cant I live and forget about this? Why cant I enjoy anything in life?
Why cnat I just feel happy with what I have instead fo wshing and desiring something I do not have?
Why do I feel bad all the time? no matter what?
Why this hole in my heart is never filled?
I am going to start a medicaiotn for anxiety. I will let you know if it helped.
I will tell you, when I was a child, I was punished if I said something positive about naybody. I was punished, my mother got mad at me telling me how ungrateful I was by saying something positive about somebody. And if I looked happy? She did something to change it. I am picking up the pieces.
I
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My mother always stuck needles in my skin. She told me very ugly things and then accused me of being sower. I was 5 years old and she asked my father all the time to punish me for things that were totally irrelevant.
That is why i dont have slef worth and let M treat me like sh=t, because this is the first time somebody let me in into a family.
Lack of dignity.
About M talking bad about me, it is possibility, but thinking about that makes me very paranoid. I try to avoid it. When I get paranoid I cant think clearly.
I need to feel weel. I need to have peace.
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Daer CB, Hope that I did not sound ungrateful to your answer. Your answers are veryimportant to me and for nothing in this world I want to lose your desire to answer to my needs of advice.
Just want to make sure that I did not discourage you of keeping advicing me. Your opinions are really important to me. I think to almost everybody of us. Many times I am just wating for your answer.
It is amazing to me that you were able to construct a nice relationship. But I do belive dip in my heart that you are able to construct a relationship with almost any person because you know how to gte the good of everybody.
In the iother hand, I know how to get the bad on everybody. Everybody gets mad at me almost all the time.
I start to think that I have a disabuility and my thinkking process is all crooked.
I have my doubts about M and that is why I come here. To hear you all guys what you have to say.
Love you, CB.
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Lupe:
IMO, everyone needs to tell someone everything about themselves.... everything good, bad and ugly.... in order to remain level on this earth.
Who do you tell?
Who does M tell?
Sounds like he uses his children and ex...... sounds like he's pretty dependent on them for his emotional serenity.
Now, he's added you, and you have your idea of what a relationship should be.
You point out his flaws.
You point out his shortcomings.
You attack the way he navigates socially, and accuse him of attacking you personally.
Maybe it's just the way he copes with his life, and it will be how he copes after you're gone?
Maybe you state your boundaries, and he'd like to help you out with them, but he hasn't learned any new coping strategies, so he can let the old ones go?
Relying on approval and attention from other women, he used to flirt with, might be something he has under control now, but what has he filled that void with?More need for approval from his ex and children?
Are you a safe place for him to be vulnerable?
Are you his friend, even if he can't meet all your needs?
What's best for him, even if the answer doesn't make you very happy?
Can you see yourself fitting into that scenario, with different expectations of that relationship?
What's best for Lupita?
I think it would be finding a guy who's pro and con list is something you can live with, without tweeking his entire life.
It breaks my heart to see you writhing in pain over a relationship that might be something other than a life partner relationship.
What if this guy is a great friend for dancing, filling small voids of time and keeping at a distance?
What if you're trying to force this relationship to be something it can't be?
What if he's just a guy you enjoy being with, but won't be THE guy? Can you change your expectations, and let the relationship be something else?
I'd love to hear that you're enjoying time with him, not agonizing when you're together. What can YOU change to make that happen?
I'd love to hear that you're reading, and growing and spending time with other people who might be better life partners.... but you'll never know unless you explore.
You're not married, Lupe.
You can get out and look around...... I think you'll learn about yourself as you go.
Lighter
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Lup,
I can tell you if it were me...It would be a big problem if the man I loved and had a serious relationship with had his ex-wife hanging around and coming to visit him. Thier children are not minors. They are grown and don't live in either's house. Sure they can be friends (which I think is a great thing) when you share children but this would be Way Too Much for Me!
It wouldn't cut it for me.
I just couldn't image my husband...ex is coming over today, I'm here with ex, ex being down stairs as I was sick, ex going shopping with him, Um No Lup....I couldn't do it.
This is beyond holidays and blending families....
Seems like a lot of Red Flags...from the time you met M.
Love
Deb
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Are you a safe place for him to be vulnerable? NO
Are you his friend, even if he can't meet all your needs? NO
What's best for him, even if the answer doesn't make you very happy? NO
Can you see yourself fitting into that scenario, with different expectations of that relationship? NO
What's best for Lupita? I wish I knew. Somebody more straightforward, honest with no hang ups from the past.
But who does not have hang ups from the past? This is the only man I have found that I have fun with and I enjoy being with when we are alone.
And I know I have problems because right now he went to the airport to pick up his son who was here yesterday and decided to visit a friend away and coming back today. I know I have problems because when he is not under my eye I feel incomplete, anxiety separation.
I am trying to find a place to go to because I don’t want to be in this house alone.
I will start my anxiety medication tomorrow.
Deb, I hear you. I must not have any sense of self worth.
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Sounds like a good time to start journaling, Lupe.
You don't have to relieve the anxiety.
It's telling you something.
Listen.
Lighter
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I have the feeling that he wanted to ruin my vacation. he sabotages me. Just like my mother did.
Why would he want to brin everybody to his house when we met thanks to being alone during this time?
Just to ruin my vacation or because he sees that kind of love that there is between me and my son and he wants to recreate it for him too. But he cant. He did not sacrifice like i did and his children do not appreciate him like mine does to me.
He ruined my vacation. if he does not want me to go, why would he want to ruin me? why?
Now he wants to do it for Christmas too. And ruin Christmas too. he tells everything about me to his ex. He cant give one step without asking to his ex. I am very disappointed. He is stupid. Or he just does nto want to love me. He is fighting the love he feels for me. He wants to destroy us.
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Lupita,
I can tell you have a lot of practice detecting "ulterior motives" behind what people say and do. You "know" these things through your intuition... and then you feel things - sometimes anger; sometimes anxiety - and then you say & do things... and before you know it the worst case scenario that you feared becomes real.
I also hear that you might already know this about yourself and you are asking us to validate something for you. Because you're not totally convinced you're right about the intuition - or even the real things in front of your eyes. I'm sending you a big huge cyber hug and telling you that it's OK. However it turns out - whatever you decide - whatever is the reality of M's feelings. OK?
The thing is, that only M can validate your questions for you. And you will need to ask him, and tell him how you feel and what you want - like spending Thanksgiving alone with him. Guys honestly don't remember "anniversaries" or feel the same importance about commemorating them as us ladies do. So, it's a bit off the mark, to let this grow into a feeling that he doesn't care about you or that you are not important to him. And he sure wouldn't understand you being angry about this! (even though you might very well be angry and hurt). Not unless you tell him.
I do sympathize with you, over how scary it could be to have that conversation with him. We are conditioned to expect the worst because of the past; because of how the parents treated us. It's very, very important to remember that M is not your Nmom; and he is different than she is, so you aren't as accurate at predicting how he will react. You won't be risking the whole relationship, I don't believe, just by telling him that you had hoped to spend Thanksgiving alone with him and then asking him to do that instead of what he has planned. It opens a negotiation and allows for a compromise, you know? And it sets a precedent in your relationship too; Lupita gets what she wants sometimes and M gets what he wants sometimes.
What about this scenario? You spend part of the day with your son - and M spends part of the day with his ex & kids - and then the two of your spend the evening together - alone. And be thankful for each other.
Ya know - hubby and I are the third spouse for each other. We both brought "baggage" to the relationship. Mine was the abuse in my history and emotional issues... and his a combination of financial/relationship issues. We both have kids. We have had to cut each other a lot of slack over the years - and give up a lot of expectations and preconceived notions about what our relationship "looked like" and was in reality. And it still works... because we accept each other the way we are; we accept the baggage too... and we talk and connect to each other in spite of it all. I don't need candlelight and dancing and being swept off my feet to know that he's there when I need him, that I can count on him to "have my back", and that he's fun and comfortable to be with. We don't even match up or fit into traditional male/female roles perfectly. I'm the "business brain" of the family and he's the shopaholic who comes up with incredible bargains. We both cook and I'm slowly teaching him that he does know how to clean, too! But he is the social one, the party planner, the fun master.
None of the traditional roles or romantic rules matter to either one of us. And it so much easier this way!
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Lupe:
I have a SIL who's divorced parents come together every year to have Christmas with her and her children.
They don't argue, create trouble or otherwise dread the event.
They step up, remain civil and focus on the Grandkids. One's a teen and the other is grown by now.
It doesn't have to be a dreadful event when divorced parents come together to share holidays for their children's sake.
Lupe, if you think you draw personality disordered people to you like a beacon, sending signals that call them (at one point you said this)..... then consider that you might be dealing with that now.
Accept that there may be conditions you can't change or live with in this relationship, then have the discussion PR talked about.
Ask M exactly what he means when he says whatever it is he's saying.
Appreciate his honestly, even if it's not what you want to hear, and try to remain level headed when you respond.
It's your job to protect and care for yourself.
It's not this man's job. He's not your husband, and your expectations of him should remain realistic.
If this relationship is strong enough, you can discuss issues, both compromise and work things out.
If he's not telling you what you want to hear, and you're in denial or expecting to change him.......
it might be time to consider changing your expectations, no matter what you do with the man.
Access.
Accept.
Act.
The 3 A's of proactive living.
You're a smart woman, Lupe.
You can figure this out.
Lighter
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“I also hear that you might already know this about yourself and you are asking us to validate something for you. Because you're not totally convinced you're right about the intuition - or even the real things in front of your eyes. I'm sending you a big huge cyber hug and telling you that it's OK. However it turns out - whatever you decide - whatever is the reality of M's feelings. OK?”
Why do I always need validation? I never believe my guts. I don’t trust my slef.
“Appreciate his honestly, even if it's not what you want to hear, and try to remain level headed when you respond.
He never tells me what he is thinking. Never. That is why I read his e-mail, there is where I find out what he wants to do.”
“He taught me that people can love you and say really, really stupid things. N's do it over and over and they never change. Non N's do it too--with time, they can change. You cant tell an if a person is an N or a non N based on whether or not they say stupid things....or do stupid things. Sometimes I would be panic stricken--OMG he's an N! Just like my ex! OMG! Panic! No. He was being selfish. Thoughtless. Speaking without thinking. That is not an N. N's are pathological. N's are bigger than just normal run of the mill annoying people. We shouldnt trivialize narcissism by thinking that there's one behind every bush.”
Well, he sure displays N traits all over the place, but he is not malignant. He constantly makes me look bad. He makes me feel bad. But he is not malignant. He always apologizes and tries to make it better. I think he loves me and does not know what to do between his spoiled brat kids and me.
I feel so so so so lonely. I do not belong anywhere. I started to have problems at work suddenly after three years working for them just because the assistant principal find error in everything I do. It is like I will never find a niche in where I am welcome. I left my church because I started feeling bad there. They liked me when I had the energy, but now I am tired and they do not like me anymore because they pay me 35 dollars for a work that deserves 200 and now That I do not devote my entire week to them they donot like me anymore so I left.
I don’t belong, I have nothing. I am tired of looking, searching, I always endo with nothing.
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CB
yesterday Sunday, I went to school for two hours, then went to the mall for four additional hours, and cmae to his house around 6 or 7 pm. He was alone watching tv and he was mad at me.
Today Monday I am going to school again, to sgin some papers, then go to therapist that I have not seen in severla monsths, and then will stay in my house fro several hours. Will go to the jacuzzi, rest and come back to his house at night. let us see how he behaves tonight.
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Lup, hon -
you NEED validation just like I do - all us humans all do; even M. Trusting ourselves is something that we learn to do - either as kids with parents that help us learn this... or if the parents sabotage that instead, later when we are trying to heal.
Take a big deep breath - or 50 of them! Relax a minute or 50. Just don't even think about this sometimes, OK? You are allowed to take a time out from this.
With problems that are big, or feel big... it helps to go slow, take our time, deal with only one piece of it at a time and not demand of ourselves that we swallow the whole elephant - solve it all at one time - or else condemn ourselves as totally messed up, because we don't or can't. Both of those are how we were sabotaged by abusive parents and we've learned to do that all by ourselves. We can unlearn that - replace the old habit with new ones.
You're not alone if Lighter, CB & I are talking to you, right? You asked for and we offered advice. And we're still here and not goin' anywhere!
Take 2 minutes, right now - and imagine a great big group hug that we're sending you. We don't think there's anything "wrong" with you. We've all be in relationships and made decisions - some the same; some different - that felt just as monumental as yours does. We know it's agonizing, frightening and confusing. That jacuzzi sounds mighty good to me, right now... I hope you enjoy it!
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Holidays are a gauntlet for new relationships, in my experience...
They become "tests" and add stress.
I hope you find a way to talk to him where no one is getting
punished and no one is feeling criticized...
Something spacious enough for both of you. Safe enough for each of you.
I hope it will be peaceful and warm, Lupe.
love,
Hops
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You aren't alone, Lupe.
You yourself.....
and us
Your son will always be a fixture in your life.
He's not going anywhere.
Feeling upside down and lost doesn't mean you'r all alone.
When I feel that way, I take an honest look around and admit that there are people I can reach out to.
Just like we reach out here.... or go see T's.
Journling is a great idea when things are SO overwhelming and painful.
Lots to learn about ourselves when we go back and read our most painful thoughts.
(((Lupe)))
Remember to put a hand on your chest and one on your belly button when anxiety threatens to overtake you.
Concentrate on breathing so the hand over your bellybutton moves up and down.
Really focus on making just that hand move with your breath...... it will help you calm down and center yourself.
As always, you'll survive this..... you'll become stronger for it.
I really wish you'd been keeping a journal so you could see just how far you've come, and be reminded of the lessons you've already learned.
Maybe going back and reading your posts, from the beginning, would bring some perspective?
Lighter
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I came back to his house. I said I was tired of so much driving. He left with his son. That was 7 pm. Now is 10:19 and he is dounstaris watching tv with his son. If I go there an djoin them the son will leave. So, I wil stay here. So, all day yesterday and all day today was not enough. Tomorrow the ex is coming again. I told him that he has to stay upstairs with me and let her visit her son. He does not habet ohang aropund with the ex. If he does, it will be the last thing he does to me. I habve to promise my selg that I will not put up with this man anymore, For my own good, for my own sanity, if he goes to hang around that woman, hw will be dead meat in my life, I will levae forever. I will not dance with hime anymore, I will leave forever, I have to comply wirh my self. I have tio.
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I'm so sorry, Lupita.
I know you feel so fragile around the area of other women.
I really am sorry that there isn't enough security there. I don't know the answer, save that the boundaries are so open and closed at the same time. It's really hard to figure out flexible, healthy boundaries, with our legacy. I really feel for you in this.
I do understand it some...I was very friendly with my ex, my D's father, and I was so grateful for it. It was a relief to me that we interacted so well after the divorce (probably because I carried a lot of guilt). But when he remarried, one day his new wife told me that our fondness for each other was distressing for her, and made it difficult for them to fully make their way.
She was telling me about a boundary (didn't even know what they were called then). But I sensed it was a fair and appropriate thing to point out. I changed my demeanor thenceforth around him--remained cordial-friendly, but not intimate-like-old-close-roommates friendly, and then things worked better.
(Well, in the long run, they were miserable and wound up divorcing, but it didn't have anything to do with me, thank heaven.)
The fact that people will make dramatic entrances and exits to show their boundaries is so sad. And, kind of like high school.
I wonder if your therapist can help? I think CB has, as always, told you some profoundly wise things to think about. For me, the very biggest thing she said was...TIME.
I don't think you're giving yourself enough time.
love,
Hops
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I just hope you find some serenity in whatever you decide, Lupe.
I wish you could see M's choices as more a comptability issue, and not a personal attack against you.
Please enjoy time with your son.
Try not to obsess with M.
Look around you.
There are beautiful things everywhere.
I know I'll be picturing you spinning in a red dress over the holiday.
Don't forget to Dance, Lupe.
Lighter
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Hops, You said that CB meant time. I heard CB saying "remove my self from the situation and let him do whatever he wants to, and be away."Thst is what I uderstood from CB's opinion. CB is a much more mature woman than I do. And you are a much more mature woman that M's ex is. You reacted so nicely to your ex's new wife. This woman is here because she wants to create probles. Otherwise, she would not be here.
My therapist said that I should also remove my self from the situation, go away and let him do whatever he wants to. I don’t want to go because I want to see what is he going to do. I want to see how much power is he going to give his son and his temper tantrums. A son that is 28 years old and spoiled brat. I want to stay here and see how M is going to behave. If he stays here upstairs with me, doing his work in his office, instead of hanging around with that woman, I will be satisfied. If he decides to go out with them and leave me here, I will be very sad, and very mad.
He was upstairs from 1 to 1:25. Now he went downstairs. She is the patio with one of the sons and he is somewhere else downstairs.
If he goes near her I will be very mad. God help me to put up with this. He came upstairs got the laundry and went back there. I do not know if they are together. I will have to get a glass of water to see what is going on.
1:42, he came back upstairs. I need to know what his behavior is. He is taking a shower. This is the second shower he takes today. He must be very nervous too.
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1:51, he went back downstairs again. I wonder what they are doing there together. Why does he want to be around here?
As Lighter says, it is a compatibility issue, not am attack against me.
My T said that it is the son who came to visit that id potting them together, and giving me a hard time.
I have to see this later so I see what I suffer because fo this man.
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2:05, I could not resist and went downstairs. M is dusting and my picture with him is still on the table, of course many pictures of the ex wife too, but I thought that mine might go away. Ex wife and son J are gone to the beach. Let us see how long they stay out. She has to go home to her lover at some time. She cannot stay here all day. M and I are going dancing tonight. I just asked him at what time are we leaving and he said we are leaving at 6:30. He said that I should not create any more stress for him than what I am doing. He gets mad at me because I am upset because he chooses to keep the ex around.
He is going to give me a hard time at dance I think. I will let him dance with whom ever he wants to see if he comes down.
I am ready for whatever consequences come after this. M causes me too much stress. Some of it is my own fault, but he is very disrespectful according to my T and to my self too.
Four more hours to leave this house of horrors.
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I agree with your T, it would have been healthier to go away.
As it is, you're trying to "catch him" disobeying or being disloyal, and you're watching them like a hawk. I can feel the tension in the house through my monitor!
This is not healthy, this vigilant spying and obsessing, it really isn't, Lupe. You are not achieving anything but more instability and more damage to the relationship. It is damaging for one adult to treat another like a bad child.
It's true that it takes a long time to find out if someone is trustworthy.
Unfortunately, it may take even longer to find out if you can experience trust.
The thing is, even if you can set up a thousand "tests" or "traps" or "proofs" -- ultimately, your inability to be at peace alone, or happy with your own self, leaks into whatever relationship you're in. They're really all the same, at heart. The previous bf and his dancing with other woman, your son's gf's family/mother, your coworkers at the previous job and now this job...
It's all the same theme. It's about YOU not trusting that you can create happiness and meaning without a whole lot of reinforcement from outside sources. And because of your mother, outside sources feel so profoundly unreliable and unsafe to you, that you go into hyper-controlling, hyper-supervising mode...
Which snuffs out the possibility of building a healthy intimacy. Not just an intimacy that exists when it's the two of you alone under the moon, or one-on-one with anyone...but a healthy ebb-and-flow closeness and feeling of belonging that you carry all the time, especially while alone. So when you are interacting with other people--family, bfs, coworkers, public--you don't have to be afraid...and the natural triangular interactions that are part of being in the human community don't all feel to you like a competition.
You will know that there are good human beings all around, a few who aren't, but there are many who are good and nondestructive, so the world of connecting is a place of delight, not terror. And that if one connection doesn't have a feeling of ease and oxygen, you can release it without so much anguish and blame, and move forward in the world knowing that there is PLENTY of love, no shortage of it, ever, and soon the universe will offer you a new opportunity to share it. Maybe in the ways you fantasize about or pre-define, or maybe in situations you've never encountered before.
I have finally recognized that there was a whole lot of wisdom in the old-fashioned "stages of courtship" and taking a VERY long time to get to know someone, particularly before becoming sexual (which often bonds you whether you are ready for that bond or not...thank the hormones).
I think I'd find it unsettling to have a bf who's still enmeshed with his ex. I don't think it's strange to be troubled by it.
But I do think the tests and proofs and invisible Lupita-cams (mental ones) are not the solution.
You're torturing yourself. You could be walking by the beach, enjoying a museum, or at the movies.
Matter of fact, I'm going off to a movie by myself this afternoon, and can't wait...
Love to you, Lup, hope some of this helps a little.
xo
Hops
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Lupita,
I happened to run across this article on the web...I was kinda amazed at how appropriate it is to what we are discussing. As a matter of fact, this writer expresses MUCH better what I was trying to express to you.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200909/back
I think you might be misunderstanding what I was saying in my post. Yes, you need to take time and observe. But the process of doing that is over months, not hours. The observation has to come from each of you living your real lives and just being part of them and observing how you interact with each other and with others in each other's presence. You can't telescope the whole process into one day.
I agree with Hops that you are probably losing touch with what you really want here. You are behaving obsessively and, regardless of what you are seeing in him, I hope you are seeing some things in yourself. You are way too involved in what he is doing on a minute by minute basis--to me, it is a red flag that control is an important part of this relationship. Perhaps you feel that ONE of you is going to be controlling the other, and you are fearful of being controlled so you are controlling him?
When I say that you need to observe, it is for the purpose of seeing if continuing this relationship is good for both of you. Not because one of you has been wrestled into compliance, but because you have observed over time that the way you two do things NATURALLY are in synch. Like with me and my sweetheart--his parenting is an important marker to me of what I will feel comfortable with. If he was always bad mouthing his kids' mothers, I would feel very negative about the future of the relationship. That behavior would not be in synch with who I am.
Read this article and see if any of it makes sense. Then, if I were you, I would take a big break and give him a big break. There are two kinds of withdrawal as you will read about in the article--punitive and restorative. I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying--that you should take punitive breaks. I really didnt mean to come across that way. The breaks you should be taking should be restorative. I think Hops' advice is very very good.
Love CB
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it is 4:22. They have not come back from the beach. M is here at his computer. He did not go with them neither stayed close to them like I thought he was going to do becuase he did it last week on Monday. But after all what I have told him all last week and this, he did not do it today. If he gets mad at me, it is going to be his loss, not mine.
I know, like Hops siad before, it is a mistake to get involved with a man so enmshed with the ex.
One more hour ro go dancing we are supposed to leave here at 6:30. Two more hours to get out of here.
Hopefully we will not come back till late.
Tomorrow I willl give him a break. I will go to my apartment and omce back in the afternoon. Just to have a glass of wine with him and go to bed.
I am in the hands of God, and I have not done anything wrong or bad. I am a good person.
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But, oh boy, does he casue me so much stress.
CB I read the article. It sounds fine. I will go away tomorrow morning. With God's help.
He chooses to keep her around. It is his choice. Now I have to choose if i want to live with that or leave. I feel sad and tired.
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4:31, they came back from the beach. Mike went downstairs immediately. He stayed for 2 mines there, then came back then went back. 4:43, M is going to take a nap. Finally he will relax. She is finally gone.
For today, I guess, she can come whenever she wants. It is up to me if I want to live with a man like this.
I really don't like him, I don't like what he does. I don't like the way he manages his life. I am very unhappy.
I start working next Monday and again, she can come whenever she wants to. i don't like it.
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Those kids are old. Might they do something to me? Are they hating me? Is that woman now mad becuase I was here and M did not hang around here?
I personally think she is not happy with her boyfriend and sje is trying to get M back. And the kids, are helping her. Like always, everybody against me. Just this time it is M choice to do it that way.
I gues I am nothing. I am exhausted.
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Lupita:
you know how some people can take perfectly valid numbers or statistics and then twist them to back up what is just one opinion?
Sometimes, we humans do that with our observations of other people, too. I've personally experienced situations where - because of my emotional state or some past triggers - I've completely misread a situation and what was really going on was nothing like the narrative of it, that I'd created in my mind. But I sure as heck convinced myself... so I could feel righteously angry, and then throw blame on someone, or play poor me. And none of those things was at all what I really wanted.
What I really wanted was even scarier, more stressful than those things. Because it meant I had to give up those old ways of being and reacting and looking for ulterior motives in everyone's behavior. And I had to make real choices and connections and allow people to be close to the real me - that was absolutely terrifying for me. But with the help of my T, and some others, I did make baby-steps in this direction until one day I just "was the real me" - and I was fascinated with the fact that nothing bad happened at all.
Now, I'm not saying this applies to you. I couldn't possibly know that. But are YOU sure that you haven't misread the some or all of the situation? Can you be 100% sure without actually talking to M about it? You are sure of how you feel; that's one thing you can trust is a sure thing. But how you feel doesn't automatically translate into motivation and intent to make you feel this way, on M's part. And the only way you can know what's going on is to talk to him.
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We broke up this morning. It took me five minutes to take the few things I had at his house and put them in my car. I left. I am at my apartment, alone, as always wa sin my life.
I never win the battles. Alone again. M is very selfish. I am an object that he can pull and push whenever he wants.
Very sad day today.
:(
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I'm so sorry for your pain -- even it had to be, it doesn't take away the feelings -- I'll keep you in my prayers. Love, Biddy
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Thank you BadD, thank you for your post. I really need all the cheer i can get.
Wow, it feels so lonely here, so powerless.
So sad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:(
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You're not alone, Lupe...and you are strong.
I am very sorry for the grief and disappointment you are feeling--these are painful feelings.
In a week or two, I hope you'll share here what you think, looking back.
Meanwhile, comfort, calm and friendship--you deserve them all.
I hope you'll stick with your T, too.
love,
Hops
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Hey Lupe:
You're alone because you chose yourself over M.
M wanted you, but you have you, and you're taking care of your needs now.
I know it feels empty and scary, but mindfully caring for yourself, and believing in your ability to do so, will eventually start feeling less alien.
Just keep choosing you, and you'll see.
Light