Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: JustKathy on December 25, 2010, 03:14:45 PM
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I got up this morning waiting for the dreaded Christmas call from Co-F. I had considered unplugging the machine and just letting it ring, but he would have kept calling back.
Before I made the decision to go NC with him, I gave him the chance to make it right, and he refused, so this is HIS choice. Unlike the abuse he inflicted on me as a child, the things he's done in recent years were, and still are, reversible (disinheriting me, etc.). My husband told him that if he didn’t do right by his daughter that neither one of us would take his calls again. He could have stood up and proven that he loves me, but he didn't. He chose to excuse it away with, "You know how Kathy's mother is."
Now he calls sounding all weepy and teary, crying into the phone that he doesn't understand why we won't take his calls, and that he wants to talk to his daughter because "he isn’t getting any younger."
Does he REALLY not get it? When he took me out of his will he taunted me with it and made it clear that it was a punishment for "hurting" my mother. What goes on in the minds of these people? I just wish I could understand. My husband could not have made it any clearer. He told Co-F, while I was crying hysterically in the background, "If you do NOT make things right by your daughter, then please stop calling, as neither one of us is comfortable making small talk with a man who would rip his own child's heart out."
I want to feel bad for him because he's 80, and he's crying into the phone, but he knows how to fix things, and he's refusing. Honestly, does he really think that you can throw your children under the bus and that they'll still stick around and care for you in your old age? What is WRONG with them?
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I was trying to respond to your post but I would like to ask you a question.
What is Co from Co-spouses? What is Co from Co-F?
What does your father claim that you did to hurt your mother?
I can imagine how you feel. My heart goes out to you.
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Thanks Lupita. My father is totally co-dependent to my NM. He doesn't seem to understand or "get" that my mother abused be (which was done with his help). He thinks it's all MY fault. My NM abused me, I never got along with her as a result, so she says that I hurt her, and he's just repeating that and defending her. He told my husband that he disinherited me (among other things) at NM's insistence because of "that thing Kathy has with her mother." He doesn't even get what "that thing" is.
He just called a second time, crying, and saying that he doesn't understand why we won't talk to him. Is he really that stupid, or is he putting on an act, just like NM does? Or has he finally figured out that he's pushed his children away from him in an effort to protect his wife, and now she's dying, and he's going to be left alone. If it really is sinking in, it's not too late to fix it, but he won't. His #1 priority (besides taking care of NM) is my brother, the GC. His wonderful son, who for the third straight year, was a no-show at the family Christmas.
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This kind of people do not change. Of course God makes miracles.But normally, these people do not change and they believe their own fantasies. If your mother is claiming you hurt her, she probably believes you hurt her and your father believes it too.
It is very sad and I feel very sorry for you. My younger brother is the golden child too. And he really believes that my motehr loves him more because he is a better person than me. They believe it and there is nothing I can do about it.
That is the reason I came to USA. To put a distance between them and me. It was hurting too much.
I think you might consider the possibility to get far from them so they do not hurt you anymore. The closer you are the more it will hurt.
I am so sorry Kathy. So sorry. Would you like to count your blessings here? It seems that you have a husband who loves you. That is a gift from God. I would do anything to have a husband who loved me. Do you have other things? Do you have children?
My heart goes out to you. I am sure you are hurting inside your heart. I t gives you a hole in the heart. An emptiness that never gets filled with anything.
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Thanks Lupita. I don't have any kids, and my husband is far from loving. He does support me when my N parents cause trouble, but the marriage isn't very solid. Right now I'm living in Arizona, while my parents are in in CA, but I plan on moving back to CA soon. I'm seriously considering moving and not telling any family members where I've gone. That will stop them from sending unwanted gifts and letters, and stop the unwanted phone calls.
I just wish I could stop feeling bad about this. I didn't feel at all bad about going NC with my mother, since she abused me for so many years, but I always made excuses for my father - that he was brainwashed by NM, couldn't help it, and so on. It's only been in the last few years that I've come to see him for what he really is. His phone calls ruined my entire day. He sounds so sad on the phone, but he knows what he can do to fix things, and he refuses. He won't ever make things right, because to do so would mean defying NM, and he would rather hurt his children than go against her. Textbook enabling spouse.
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Hey Kathy - I tried replying a couple times yesterday but no-go. Not sure what happened.
But anyway: if I'm hearing you correctly, it's how you feel about maintaining your NC boundary with your Dad that's bothering you, right? You have caught on to his "poor, pathetic victim" role in all this, it sounds like... and how he seems to be making a choice between the bioNic "Queen" and you. I say "seems"... because from his perspective he might feel like he has no choice. Her highness may have him so tied up - emotionally, legally, socially - that he feels totally helpless and without independent thought or volition. It is a bit of an odd twist that he'd be seeking out the scapegoat in the FOO for acknowledgement of his victimhood - and maybe that's just misery loves company... or maybe he's trying to lessen his misery by off-loading; dumping it on you... or maybe that's the ultimate result of dysfunction; don't know.
I think - in your reality - you see that he does have a choice. In his reality, he may not - not without risking becoming the target of her highness, himself. Not without risking the set of trade-offs he's already made with her... to be able to co-exist, this long with her. At 80, he probably doesn't have the energy to grow out of his victim/abetting identity or life circumstances... not without help. And you're right; the "terror of the situation" is dawning on him...
But enough about him!!!!! We can sift through that clumping cat litter ad nauseum and it still doesn't address you and your feelings.
That's the big thing in what you've posted... the question behind the anger and irritation and hurt. It's like you're doubting your decision to go NC with him; as if you think you MIGHT be, being as unreasonable as the old witch is. (I don't think that's the case... but that won't make it go away, either.) So, lets talk about odds; probability; likelihood... for the sake of discussion, let's just say there's a 50-50 chance that you might be able to actually connect with your Dad's real, authentic self... that he has a desire to apologize or at minimum, explain (it's not possible to know without actually meeting and going through with it)... and that this would be a healing meeting and connection for you. It isn't without the risk of the other half of the odds - which is that he's just looking for someone to take pity on his self-induced victimhood and absolve him of all the "coulda, shoulda, woulda's" that he's ignored all these years.
To my way of thinking, knowing just what he wants, could be a useful piece of information for you. Right now, you don't know. For sure. A face to face meeting does involve making yourself vulnerable - without throwing yourself immediately into the drama & entanglement again. And that's a whole lot easier said than done - even if you've been practicing! But - if you are willing to "release the outcome" of the meeting... not stake "everything" on what you really hope, wish, expect from him... and also to let various old arrows and barbs and accusations just bounce off (not react to them)...
... then it might be possible to resolve that one bit of self-doubt. Still - easier said than done and I only have some experience with it; can't say I've mastered it; I've taken my share of lumps for "forgetting" that I'm not dealing with "normal" people; they know just when & where to push those old anger or pain buttons, you know? I very carefully pick time/place for these encounters. If I'm not up to it... I postpone dealing with them. I try to always have a third party along, too. Someone to provide feedback to me on what I think I'm dealing with and mediate, if necessary. I try to define for myself exactly what I want/need out of the encounter... and also what is "off limits". It is, in the words of Jack Sparrow, a "parlay" between hostile forces. It's a structured interaction.
Sometimes, it's necessary to break NC, for peace of mind. Just make sure you have your exit well planned and rehearsed!
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Thanks Amber. I spent all day yesterday beating this one to death, and finally decided to leave things as they are. If I called him back, or even met with him, I know I would be left with the same frustrations that I have been dealing with for several decades now. He'll just go into his Firest Gump loop, start rambling about the fruit market, and never address the problems at hand. I think his "real self" went away 55 years ago and isn't coming back.
I do believe that he may have had a sudden reality check. I have always been the only child who would have been willing to provide elder care for him, and he may be finally seeing that. My father spent a lifetime giving my brother everything he needed, with the idea being that his GC would become successful and reciprocate later in life. Unfortunately, my parents went so far overboard in giving him an ivy league education, free cars, a house, you name it, that he took it all for granted and grew into a selfish bastard who always has his hands out, and has no use for anyone who isn't giving him free stuff. I finally stopped buying him Christmas gifts after years of him taking the goods like I owed it to him, never thanking me, and never ever giving me a gift in return. I think Co-F has finally "gotten" that his precious boy is NOT going to be there for him in his old age (though despite that, he is still the sole heir and has been given all valuable family heirlooms while my parents are still alive, so that I cannot contest the will).
When my father calls, he usually only wants to speak to my husband. He doesn't know how much hubby makes, but based on us having a pretty good lifestyle, I think Co-F believes that hubby has a great paying job and that we are very well off (we're pretty middle class, but my husband is one of those who lives beyond his means, so on the surface we look like we're living very well). So F has a son who won't visit him or take his calls, a second daughter who is battling cancer and barely able to care for herself, and his N wife, who is dying of cancer. That leaves me, who currently has a five bedroom luxury home and (in his eyes) a highly paid husband. I think he's scared of ending up alone and broke, and he just realized that I might be his meal ticket.
Back to connecting with his "real, authentic self," I don't think that possible. Since I was a child, I've never seen him display any independent thought. Whatever person he used to be died when he married his N wife and became her droid. He has been hurting me my entire life. When I was 18 and homeless, I asked him for a little money for food, and he said "Your mother says I can't give you money." She would never have known if he had reached into his wallet and given me a $20 bill, but he was so afraid that he would be struck by lightning for defying her, he let me starve. I honestly don't believe that his real self is there anymore.
If he's refusing to do right by me out of fear of crossing the Queen, well, she's supposed to be dying of cancer, and he'll soon be free to do as he pleases. I talked to my therapist about this, because my feeling is that he can certainly rewrite his will after she's gone, and retrieve some of the family heirlooms that NM made him give to the GC just to stick it to me. My T's feeling is that even though he CAN make these changes, he won't. People who are this co-dependent will never defy the controlling spouse, even after they have died. Their commitment to this person can never be broken, even in death. I have to say I agree with her. Even after NM is gone, he will never cross her and go against her wishes. Ain't gonna happen.
Kathy
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Hi Kathy,
I do support you and have resonated with many parts of your story over time...
I am struggling with this because I find I identify more with him (the parent) so I am sad about his sobbing. I know you were abused by your Nmother, but do you blame your Nfather for the terms of your Nmother's will? How could he make her change her own will if she didn't want to? Or perhaps they have a joint will. (Is that it? They have a joint will and she ordered him to leave you out of it?)
Are you expecting him, at age 80, to have the mother of all battles with his spouse to get her to leave you money? Do you feel it is his obligation to set her aside now, to undo the formula of his life? I remember that your mother gave your father's Emmy to your brother, the GC. I do get it.
I just never know exactly what people mean by "disinherit" or "disown" because that's vague, and the same issue of inheritance has torn what remained of my family apart. The specific thing I asked my Nmother not to do (leave me legally entangled with my brother) -- she did anyway. I did get to a point of compassion and forgiveness before she died, just because watching an old person suffer physically and die makes them into something different...they are a big wrinkly child. They are vulnerable and dependent at the close of life and they can be abused and hurt just as children can.
The roles reverse at some point, they just do. Then it's a question of what the more powerful person is doing. Youth is more powerful than age.
I just keep thinking, the old man is sobbing because his heart is broken, he wants to see his child. And then to have his son-in-law being a gatekeeper, telling him he has to "do right" by you before you'll speak to him? You're not weak like your father.
I don't get it. He's old and vulnerable and it sounds as though you won't go near him because of money.
I would never advise you to visit or chat with or cooperate with your mother. But your Dad just doesn't sound like an evil villaiN, and to me (as a parent who's been rejected) he sounds like a person who's being terribly hurt.
I am terribly hurt by my daughter's sense of entitlement. To my money, to more. I feel it's a generational failing. I didn't know that by doting on her so much she'd grow up feeling entitled. Or believing that love is transactional.
I can tell you that often when I hear from her, it's because she wants money, in one form or another. I spent some time Christmas Eve and Christmas Day sobbing, too.
So I may be missing something (I do believe in boundaries and in No Contact when that's right for health and sanity). Just every time I read about your father, I feel compassion for him and wish you would figure out whether you could love and forgive him outside of the issue of getting money.
love,
Hops
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I don't get it. He's old and vulnerable and it sounds as though you won't go near him because of money.
Thanks Hops. I guess I need to make it clear that this has NOTHING to do with money. They have no money left, having given it all to the GC. This is about love (or lack thereof), not money.
Also, this is not me suddenly beating up on an old man. The will, and the thing with the Emmy, were the final straws in 50 years of abuse. He has acted as NM's hatchet man since the day I was born, and did some very cruel things to me. When I was a young child, he constantly "spanked" me with his belt on NM's orders. She made up stories about me being a bad girl, and despite my pleading with him and telling him that she was lying, I was whipped in front of my brother and sister (neither who were ever spanked themselves). When I was a teen, I was frequently denied medical care, again on NMs orders. I was denied treatment for my chronic bronchitis as a punishment for "smoking cigarettes" ( something I never did), and was denied treatment for very painful and chronic tonsillitis, as a punishment for "kissing boys." How does a father sit and watch his child suffer from a serious infection, and do nothing because his wife has given the orders? Thank goodness for a compassionate Aunt (NM's sister) who works in pharmaceutical research. She snuck me some cough medicine to help with my bronchitis, and told me not to tell M. She knew what was going on. SHE helped me.
As for the will, it's a joint will, though NM never worked a day in her life, so it's more or less HIS will. He apparently removed me years ago after I went NC with her. She demanded that he remove me out of retaliation, and he defended that decision. He thinks this is about money, and I've told him over and over, I do not want his money, I want his LOVE. It's all I've ever wanted. As far as I'm concerned, when you have three children, and you remove one from the will, AND rub it in their face that it was done as an act of revenge, well, you just disowned that child. And you sure as heck do not love that child. But as I said, they have no money left that I can see. This is not not not about money. I don't care about money, and even if they had money, it's dirty money and I don't want it. I am hurt solely by a final act of revenge against a child who was tormented so badly that she considered suicide as a teen. They could leave me a billion dollars and it would not begin to compenesate for what was done to me.
Believe me, whatever hurt he may be feeling right now is nothing compared to the 50 years of torment that I was subjected to. My father was an enabling spouse who willingly hurt his daughter to protect his Queen. He is NO victim here.
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Hi Kathy
Yes, he really doesn't get it. How could he, after all these years living that alternative reality?
He doesn't understand why you won't talk to him - why? Because in his reality he hasn't changed - nothing has changed - but now you're not talking to him - so he won't understand that. In other words, yeah, it's not his fault in his eyes, so he can sound confused.
However. He's the parent and you're the child and always have been. With what you've suffered, quite frankly I'd disappear off their radar. They'll cope one way or another and if he doesn't have a phone number, he can't make the calls. If he needs compassion/help at some point, maybe someone else - even a charity -can provide it. It's not up to you.
Chilldren are more attached to their parents, than parents are to children. I've come to think this is probably true and for good reasons. People like us have to give up the most basic attachment and see these people for what they are.
He doesn't get it. He doesn't want to get it.
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I apologize for being so slow to understand, Kathy. My perception is altered by my own situation. I'm sorry.
I didn't know he whipped you on her orders. It does make things more clear that it's a joint will--but if as you say, all the money is already willed to your brother and you've been cut out (and had that explained, cruelly, to you)--then you're right, it's not about money.
Damn, I'm starting to think inheritance should never ever be discussed with kids. Horrible.
I know what you're saying. You want love, not money. The Emmy was the last, symbolic hurt. And you are NOT asking him to change his will again, you no longer care about the financial inheritance. That's not what your husband meant when he said your father needs to "do right by his child."
You want him to say, I know I was wrong, I know I hurt you when I should have defended you, I know I failed you. And I love you, and will you forgive me?
I wish he could do that. I wish I knew there was also some real grief for his child in his tears. Maybe the holidays are hurting him too. But he is experiencing the consequences of having hurt and abandoned you.
I am so very sorry. You are in great pain, he is in great pain. I wish there were a way.
with love and compassion,
Hops
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You want him to say, I know I was wrong, I know I hurt you when I should have defended you, I know I failed you. And I love you, and will you forgive me?
EXACTLY. I don't want or expect him to rewrite his will. In all honesty, I never expected to be left a dime in the first place. The day my brother came out of the womb with a penis, I knew that he would be sole heir. When I was told that I was not in the will, my reaction was pretty much, "Yeah, tell me something I don't know." What I was NOT expecting was the reason. If I had been told that my brother was sole heir because he was their favorite child, I probably would have shrugged it of with "Duh, I know." But when you're told that you were removed from the will as act of retaliation, that's a fresh kind of cruel.
Guest, thank you so much for your wonderful insight as well. I think you really nailed it when you said that F has lived for so many years in an alternative reality. I DO want to disappear off their radar. We're supposed to be relocating back to California soon, and I'm at the point where I just want to vanish, move, let them call and get a recording that my number is no longer in service. Really, what have I got to lose but a N mother, a father who never loved me, a brother who washed his hands of me because I didn't give him expensive enough gifts, and a sister who won't return my calls or letters because "Mom said I'm not allowed to talk to you."
Every year, Christmas Day is a day of torment for me. The migraines start in November, in anticipation of what's to come. I'm just done with it, done with THEM, the entire FOO.
Kathy
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My husband just reminded me of something I hadn't even thought of. For the last few years, my father hasn't even wanted to talk to me when he calls. He only ever wants to talk to hubby to complain about his prostate problems. Hubby is a prostate cancer survivor, and apparently was giving F the sympathy he craved. Several times he would ask F if he wanted to talk to me before he hung up, and the reply would be, "Ah, no, that's okay. Just tell Kathy I said Hi."
Hubby thinks that my father is upset because he wants someone to commiserate with about his health problems. He's not allowed to complain about his health in front of NM, since her cancer is the ONLY medical issue that is important and no one else is permitted to talk about their own issues. My brother never takes his calls, and he can't really talk to my sister about his prostate, so hubby is it. The message he left on the machine yesterday started out with, "Hi Dave. Merry Christmas. And oh, Hi Kathy." I'm an afterthought. He's a lifelong hypochondriac who needs a sounding board, and hubby is it. He's not upset about losing his daughter, he's upset about losing his son-in-law.
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Morning, JustKathy.
I've been thinking....with the technology that is available today, couldn't you block the calls from the Blockhead?
Bones
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Hi Kathy
I'm an afterthought.
That's very sad. From what your husband says, it sounds correct too. ((((((Kathy))))))
I'm glad your H reminded you of this too. Are you? It's an important fact.
In your first post you said that you wanted to feel bad for him. You can. He's a 'sad' person. But you can't do that at your own expense. You can feel bad for him and know that however you feel it will not affect him one bit. If you want to feel bad for him because you want some connection with him, a normal connection, you probably have to feel very sad for yourself instead, because that connection isn't going to happen.
He sounds exceptionally selfish, inconsiderate and using to me.
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You want him to say, I know I was wrong, I know I hurt you when I should have defended you, I know I failed you. And I love you, and will you forgive me?
Right there in a nutshell, isn't that what we all want?
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I've been thinking....with the technology that is available today, couldn't you block the calls from the Blockhead?
I could block their calls, but I won't. If I do something like that it would give NM some great ammunition to use in her smear campaign, that I'm so mean to them, I've blocked their calls. Better to just not answer the phone.
He sounds exceptionally selfish, inconsiderate and using to me.
You know, now that I've had a few days to think about this, it's not the first time he has used the sobbing to get what he wants. He did it once before, and was successful in manipulating us. He called two years ago, again sobbing, to tell me that NM had inoperable lung cancer. She had a tumor against her heart, could barely breathe, and had a prognosis of one month to live. He begged hubby and I to send her a card because it was her dying wish to hear from her daughter before she died. We did it. We bought the card and wrote her a nice letter, and she got the satisfaction of knowing that she had gotten her way. Two years later, NM is alive and well, so much so that my father never even mentions her "terminal cancer." Long story short, he knows from experience that he can get his way with the sobbing, so now I really have to wonder if he was just doing what he believed would get me to pick up the phone, only to make small talk and complain about his prostate.
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People will do what they need to do to get what they want - if they aren't interested one iota in what anyone else needs or wants or thinks or feels.....sigh.
They will do what they think will work to get what they want.
It is not about the real you, Kathy, it is about getting what they want from an available source. You could be anyone, so long as you can meet some need.
I guess we have to get sick of being used all the time.
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You want him to say, I know I was wrong, I know I hurt you when I should have defended you, I know I failed you. And I love you, and will you forgive me?
Right there in a nutshell, isn't that what we all want?
Hi Erin,
actually, no it isn't what I want. They're just words. edit I would like abusers removed off the planet. ignore that. The answer is still no, it isn't what we all want.
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Agreed. As much as I'd love to hear this said to me, actions speak louder than words. Even if my NM or Co-F uttered those words, they would be meaningless if they never backed them up. Otherwise, they're just words. It's like an abuser beating his wife and saying "I'm sorry." Don't say you're sorry. Stop beating your wife and SHOW her that you're sorry.
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I've been thinking....with the technology that is available today, couldn't you block the calls from the Blockhead?
I could block their calls, but I won't. If I do something like that it would give NM some great ammunition to use in her smear campaign, that I'm so mean to them, I've blocked their calls. Better to just not answer the phone.
He sounds exceptionally selfish, inconsiderate and using to me.
You know, now that I've had a few days to think about this, it's not the first time he has used the sobbing to get what he wants. He did it once before, and was successful in manipulating us. He called two years ago, again sobbing, to tell me that NM had inoperable lung cancer. She had a tumor against her heart, could barely breathe, and had a prognosis of one month to live. He begged hubby and I to send her a card because it was her dying wish to hear from her daughter before she died. We did it. We bought the card and wrote her a nice letter, and she got the satisfaction of knowing that she had gotten her way. Two years later, NM is alive and well, so much so that my father never even mentions her "terminal cancer." Long story short, he knows from experience that he can get his way with the sobbing, so now I really have to wonder if he was just doing what he believed would get me to pick up the phone, only to make small talk and complain about his prostate.
With both Nwomb-Donor and NSperm-Donor, it is a No-Win situation. I bet that NWomb-Donor will continue to smear you no matter what you do or don't do. I learned that lesson the hard way with my own FOO. If you take their calls, they continue to abuse you. If you let the machine take the calls and not respond, they continue to abuse you. If you visit, they continue to abuse you. If you don't visit, they continue to abuse you. If you move far away and disconnect the number, they continue to abuse you. If you stay where you are, they continue to abuse you. No matter what you do or don't do, they will continue to abuse you because they can. For my situation, I had to decide, which is the lesser of the two evils...being isolated from them which guaranteed that I would no longer be their punching bag, or continuing contact and be the continuing target of their smear campaigns. How valuable is my mental, psychological, emotional health? That is the question.
Bones
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Agreed Bones.
Remove yourself (ourselves) from their range. Work on the N parents in our own heads. Realise that those in our heads and those in the real world are different things. Get to grips with the reality of what they really are. Marry those facts with what's in our heads. Rewire the images and associations in our heads, override any remaining 'soft' spots, root them out and make them face reality.
Meeting with the N parents after rewiring - to prove reality - is a possibility, IF there is any good reason. otherwise, they're gone I think. Except in their own heads of course, but by then, what's in their heads doesn't affect us.
Did I just write a recipe?
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Yes, it's a recipe! and it sounds most attractive Guest!
The critical piece, to my way of thinking, is rooting out the Nparents from our own minds. The subversion and brainwashing can be so "complete" that I've discovered that I'm abusing myself... simply by carrying out the abuse of old tapes in my head. And it's these old tapes that generate misery for me... guilt... feeling badly...
if I sit down and write out exactly what I've done for my bioNic FOO ... and what they've done for me... for the last thirty years: their side is rather short. I did what I thought I "should" do... because of the family connection... and I might as well have
been
pissing
in the
wind
So, 'scuse me while I ignore the old tapes in my head, too.
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No I don't think they really get it. I think they will throw you under the bus (children) because they are children themselves.. Yep kids who can love but not grown up enough (who said) spit in the offending parent's eye.
Now look what you made (mom or dad) do and I'm not getting in trouble for you (cause I am powerless) little ole (big can love kid) but mommy/or daddy will take it out on me. Some where I think they are the true (Golden Child) to the (Big N Child) and guess who's going under the bus? Yep, you got it.
So yes I hold both parent's responsible but really....Can we? Are either of them truly grown up (enough) to raise and parent (thier own children)?
Or do we hold this F'd up disorder responsible? Well we can't change it. We can't fix it. And yeah at this point...after years, and years, and years, even of the Co-parent not having a clue....It's because they don't really get (THEY ARE CHILDREN AND JUST AS VICTIMIZED) as the real children. They are as powerless to stand up and spit in the other parent's eye (as even the real children were at one time).
And here are the real children....on here! With power....not victim any longer. Wondering why (the other parent) didn't stand up and take charge!
Could they really?
That is what I wonder?
I don't think so!
They were never grown up enough to stand up to the (bully kid).
So should we hold them accountable? Yes. Accountable for thier disorder but hell I don't know (of any change) and if professionals can't help them....We sure can't.
So I don't think we have any other choice (or we do) other then to let it go....Be mad ....at the disorder. And let it go.
You can accept the (disorder) not the behavior.
At this point in our lives (I am assuming we all are middle aged and over) that with one parent or a Co-parent ....It's just not normal. And we can be mad at the Not Normal Parent's (whatever disorder) they have and whom we wanted to love and be loved by.
And it really is not personal (as personal as it is to us).
Nope don't think they get it.
Love
Deb
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Well said Amber.
Kathy.......what do you think?
You can accept the (disorder) not the behavior.
Deb says it too. And I agree, accepting that it is not personal is a major part, I think.
They don't give a stuff about us, so why do we give a stuff about them and their behaviour (if we do)?
I don't give a stuff any more but it's taken a very long time and some awful events, but hey, I got there. *shrugs*
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You've all made some very good points. Amber, what you said about making the list sure gave me something to think about. Yes, if I made a list spanning the last 30 years, with the things they've done FOR me on one side, and the things they've done TO me on the other, it would be a very imbalanced list. In fact, I think I could work at it for several nights straight and not think of a single thing they ever for FOR me. Even things like giving me Christmas gifts were done with an ulterior motive. My mother never gave me a gift because I would get something out of it. She gave me gifts because SHE could get something out of it.
Guest, I get what you're saying about not giving a crap, and that it CAN be done, albeit over a long period of time. I've been partly successful in that area. I can honestly say that at this point in my life I've completely and totally quit caring about NM. It took decades, but I'm pretty certain that if she died tomorrow, the only emotion I would feel would be relief. With my Co-F, I feel like I'm only just starting the process. I knew my NM had some kind of mental illness by the time I reached high school, but it's only been in the last few years that I've realized my father is also mentally unbalanced. I never knew that there was a disorder called co-dependency until about five years ago, from being on this board and talking to therapists, and a whole lot of research. I spent 30 years making excuses for him, convincing myself that he was brainwashed, even questioning if he might be mildly retarded. So the process that I went through with NM has sort of started all over again. That said, I'm pretty certain that I'll come to terms with it pretty quickly. This time around, it won't be a decades long learning process. It's like watching a movie, then a few years later, watching the sequel. You already know what to expect. That might be a weird analogy, but sometimes (most times) I have a very hard time putting these things into words.
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You really HAVE told this story, Kathy, and told it well.
It has shape and narrative and conclusion.
You have written yourself right out of their maddening script and you're writing YOUR story now.
It is powerful. And promising. And is just going to get better and better.
It's a privilege to be your witness.
xo
Hops
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I guess I didn't say what I was trying to say, all that clearly about the list idea - not that it's that big a difference.
But, the two columns on the list are what they did "for" me (regardless of motive/intention) and what I did "for" them... again regardless of motive/intention. Coz I could argue that I had better motives - but that's so subjective it's not worth going there. The point being that I invested a hell of a lot more time & energy in trying to create, maintain, and feed a relationship with people who didn't want the same thing... or couldn't "go there" and hold up their end of the relationship. Most of know better than to do this, with non-FOO people.
It is ONLY because I saw "family" as being something sacred and worth sacrificing everything to maintain (according to my version of societal traditions, norms, and images we're inundated with about how things are "supposed" to be) that I volunteered to be the one "responsible" for at least trying to keep the appearances of said "supposed to be" going. Above and beyond the call of duty, even. At a very high cost to myself. For zippo back.
[and maybe it's that idea that families are sacred that needs to be made relevant for "today"; or maybe it's an ideal that no family lives up to... we could address that philosophically, but in another topic]
Talk about beating a dead horse!!! Absolutely NOTHING has changed with them. And I beat that horse for years and years and years. And one of the "hangovers" from that, is a tendency to make them the subject of my thoughts & feelings - rehashing old crap, trying to sort out & diagnose what their problem is, and licking old wounds... and trying to be oh so careful not to be blindsided in the present or future. I can be a tad paranoid about this, even tho' it's supposedly not paranoia if it actually happens (hee-hee!). I've finally gotten to the point that I don't apply all this to anyone else except my FOO. It's a bit of progress, for sure; and extremely helpful.
But the fact is, I still spend WAYYYYY too much of me and too many present moments letting them occupy my thoughts and feelings. I might even deny I do this... but HA-HA-HAHA-HA!! I sure as hell do this. And I fool myself, quite a bit, about the reasons why I do this... make excuses; rationalize it. And I'm getting pretty frustrated with it now. It just gets in the way of me consciously moving ahead... moving on... and doing the things I know I need to do..... for me. If I'm letting the old crap dominate my time and thoughts & manipulate my feelings... I'm "full"... and nothing else can get in. There's just no room for it.
I've been really stubbornly hanging on to that old stuff; hanging on to the validation that I finally got for going through this experience - it was something that finally made me "important" - to me. And I couldn't ever describe or define what "let it go" consisted of. Probably coz it wasn't a process or something complex (I like sorting out mysteries and hard problems). It was simply that I needed to focus my attention and time on something else - fill myself up with something else... so there's no room for processing, rehashing - and being vulnerable to - the old crap.
And then, their side of the list just doesn't matter... at least, as much.
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Kathy
watching the sequel makes perfect sense to me. I'm sure it will be much quicker for you this time too! :)
Amber
yeah, "families! Who needs them?!". These people who are blood-related...oh...the thought of the convo makes me tired. It's factually meaningless, blood-relations, but it ain't facts of course.
I've finally gotten to the point that I don't apply all this to anyone else except my FOO.
Hmm. Okay you mean the obsessing, I get it. But I apply a lot of, er, how I've changed my views, to others, and sometimes it is ...I don't know. I end up thinking what's the point. People, many many, nearly all people it seems some days, are so screwed up, one way or another. Some vague blood-ish relations I see going down such a mad path and although I know what I could do, a tiny word here and there...pointless. Of course there's great liberty in seeing that. It can make me smile. Yeah, well, that's me talked out! Equilibrium of sorts. Interesting: I didn't realise before that Librium came from that. Okay I have to go and potter now. I like the manic laughter btw. 8)
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But, the two columns on the list are what they did "for" me (regardless of motive/intention) and what I did "for" them... again regardless of motive/intention.
Okay, I misunderstood, though this exercise would yield the same basic results. I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about what I've done FOR them, but just since reading your post, yeah, it's a LOT. It's almost scary to think about it. I did spend a heck of a lot of years doing things for my parents, usually in an attempt to win their love. If I made that list, it would be a very unbalanced list, that's for sure.
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S'OK Kathy... it took me a long time to figure out - and I still need reminding, coz I forget - that it's only through letting "them" upset me, hurt me, stimulate guilt, encourage me to question myself... that they're getting the "satisfaction" they crave.
While it's immensely tempting to try to return the "favor" and hit back... the absolute BEST revenge is to simply ignore them and not be "moved" from my own equilibrium, choices, and self-boundaries. I have a pavlovian reflex to be outraged & frustrated and feel injustice - among other things - and that part of the equation, is my problem. That reflex is what kept me trapped in and vulnerable to - that particular mind-game for so many years. It's easier to fix me... than it is, to figure them out!!!
I think you're doing fine, you know? When your Dad calls... try to link that to the image of stepping in dog doo... or some other unfortunate, but trivial "indignity" (it washes off)... take a deep breath and ignore it to the best of your ability. It's OK... perfectly fine... to vent about it (god knows we really need to be heard!) - but don't let it "take over" and ruin your day!!!
You're still in control of you and they don't have nearly the amount of power of you that they think they do (or that you might be afraid they do... because of a similar reflex).
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If I may add in a penny or two...the phone calls from N-Blockhead, attempting to lay a guilt trip on you, is very similar to the final phone calls I received from NDoofus. When I went LC, she started ramping up her demands that I orbit my life around her royal self. That's when I went NC. Her final phone call went something like this
NDoofus: "You don't call me anymore!" (whining)
Me: "Cuz you DON'T LISTEN!!!!!" (hung up on her)
Haven't received any more phone calls from her since! (Which is a RELIEF!)
Bones
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Hee! Well done, Bones. I'm honestly surprised that she didn't call back, send you letters, or do something similar to keep you engaged. Your tone of voice must have sent a pretty clear message. Good for you.
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Hee! Well done, Bones. I'm honestly surprised that she didn't call back, send you letters, or do something similar to keep you engaged. Your tone of voice must have sent a pretty clear message. Good for you.
Thanks, JustKathy!
Bones
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I see your point. that statement really struck a cord with me, though. That is exactly what *I* have always wanted, so much that I jumped ot the conclusion that it is a universal wish.
Hell, if I could get as far as the words with her, it would be nothing short of monumental.
You want him to say, I know I was wrong, I know I hurt you when I should have defended you, I know I failed you. And I love you, and will you forgive me?
Right there in a nutshell, isn't that what we all want?
Hi Erin,
actually, no it isn't what I want. They're just words. edit I would like abusers removed off the planet. ignore that. The answer is still no, it isn't what we all want.
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Hi Erin
I read the statement again. It does nothing for me now. It would have done, a while back, years ago. Too much fantasising going on in that statement; better to align ourselves with reality I think.
I've given up. Words and the rest, not interested. They're just random people you know.
Maybe you want and will achieve something different?
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Hi Kathy,
I don't get on here too often, but when I did today and saw your post, well...I almost thought that I had written them! You have described my FOO. NM, CO-F. GC brother and GC Sister!
Your CO-F gets it. Doesn't want to admit that he had to HIDE the fact that he married such a witch all of these years. Bad reflection on him he thinks! She has brainwashed him and he has allowed it IMO. He knows, yes, he knows.
GC brother got all of the material stuff and GC sister will be getting the $. I was threatened for years to be disowned if I didn't ignore the abuse to me, then my husband and then my children. 15 years ago I let my dad disown me and that he could have it his way. He has made a couple of feeble attempts at talking to me a family functions about how he misses me and he's not getting any younger. I told him to call me and we can talk, but not here and not in public...never heard back from him. He is a coward. His mother ( my grandmother) told me before she died that he was a fool, was always a fool and always will be a fool. She told me that after I had spent years confiding in her, all she would say since I was small is,"that's a shame." I loved spending time with her, she had class and dignity and wisdom that I loved to tap into. A real rock in my life to hold onto. Sometimes I am tempted to tell him what she said but that would make me worse than him IMO.
It's just not worth having to allow yourself to be abused trying to get someone to love you. Either they do or they don't.
I have been spending the last 6 years trying NOT to be codependent and not making golden children or scape goats out of my own children. It's been hard with a NH but boundaries seem to be key with me. Your dad could have made choices and so could mine, I did. This board has helped me find my voice. Sometimes I just read and learn. Sometimes I shake my head. lol
It's good we have folks here that know what we go through. Most of the people out there don't have a clue. Lucky Them!!! My heart goes out to you Kathy. Hang in there and don't dwell on it.
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Thanks getnbtr. I'm constantly amazed by how many people in this group have said, "You described my family exactly." By the same token, I can't believe how many stories I've read from others that sound as if I had written them myself. It's astounding how similar these people are, not just the N parent, but the entire FOO. I have heard SO many people describe the exact same family structure: The N mother, the Co-Father, the scapegoat daughter, the Co or GC sister, and the brother, who is ALWAYS the GC, the male heir, the most important child of the lot. It really is remarkable. If I didn't know better, I'd say these people are given a manual of instructions on how to be an N. Some of them even use the same vocabulary words. Crazy!
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Hey Kath - it's exactly that pattern in dysfunctional behavior that makes me think it MIGHT be possible to find similar patterns in the effects of the dysfunction (it's way harder, tho - more variables)... and create some sort of roadmap or decision-tree chart... for healing. We - the board members - are a pretty creative group and the collective set of skills here are impressive.
Why couldn't we start organizing stuff in the "what helps" section of the board? To put together a kind of "DIY Healing Toolkit"? Right now the threads are there... and there's some really good stuff there... I dunno... it's just another of the stray ideas that fly through my head... not all of them are worth paying attention to!!
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Kathy, like getnbtr, I don't get on here often, but I have to say your description is so familiar to me as well. The oddest thing is while reading the last few posts I realized that the story also sounds like my mother's family. Her NM with the GC son, scapegoat daughter (my mother's sister), etc. My mother went on to marry a raging (literally) N and create another generation of it.
The most amazing part for me is the propensity Ns have for cutting children out of their will. It seems like such a fringe thing, yet it's SO common. Mine notified me of my no-longer-in-the-will status when I was 15. I'm an only child (abortion wasn't as easily gained back then), and they were certain to tell me their favored place to will their money was an academic foundation. Money had always been of tantamount importance to my parents; it was their god. Cutting me out of their will was the most concrete way they could communicate to me my place in their lives. What was my "crime?" I was a teenage girl who was behaving badly. I was a straight A student taking advanced classes in science and maths, who didn't smoke, drink, do drugs, party hard or stay out all night. I'm not proud of it, but I was obnoxious and moody and disrespectful. I now have two almost-teens and can't imagine WHAT they could do that would cause me to take similar action.
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cantors counter, like you, I acted out too and didn't feel grounded or secure. My mother would tell me something and then say she didn't say that and punish me for doing what she said in the first place. I thought I was going mad until I started writing down what she would say and show it to her when her mind would change. Then I was beaten for CATCHING her! She just hated me. Kids don't do well when they are hated. My NH did the same to me until I started writing things down, he is afraid to say anything to me now.
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The most amazing part for me is the propensity Ns have for cutting children out of their will.
They do, but I think you explained it very well in saying that money is of tantamount importance to Ns. My mother's world revolved around convincing people that she had "made it." Like your N, mine also communicated the importance of each child by giving them monetary goods (or lack thereof). When my brother was a teen, they kept buying him cars. He had no appreciation for these cars, never having invested a dime of his own money, so behaved recklessly and kept crashing them. They would promptly replace each one. Of course, none of these accidents were his fault, so he had a brand new high-end car within days, which he promptly trashed. I think he went through about 6-7 new cars by the time he was 25.
I only recently found out that I was removed from the will, but in talking to my Co-F, I got the feeling that he was puzzled as to why I was just now asking, as it had probably been this way for years. I'm pretty sure that I was also removed as a teen, when I developed autonomous thought, and could no longer be controlled. Like cantors.counter, I was also an honor student who got straight As, never took drugs or smoked cigarettes, and never "hung out" after school. My only crime was becoming a teenager, rather than staying a five-year-child, as NM had expected me to do.
My mother would tell me something and then say she didn't say that and punish me for doing what she said in the first place
Okay, this line is an absolute mind blower for me. This describes my teenage years perfectly. I could have written this line myself. My NM did the same thing. I would ask her if I could go to the school dance, and she would happily say yes, and even give me money to buy a dress. But on the night of the event, she would deny giving me permission, would run (crying) to tell my father that I was being a "bad girl," not to mention humiliating me in front of the friends who had come to pick me up. She always had my father punish me for my "disobedience." At the time, I thought I was a bad daughter, that I, too, was going mad. In hindsight, I wish I had tape recorded it all. Though in all honesty, if I had provided Co-F with a tape recording, he would have claimed that I doctored it and punished me anyway. This is gaslighting at its worst. Apparently I'm not alone in this experience. The teen years are our formative years, and being abused at that time is very damaging. I still have nightmares about the things she did to me in high school.
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This post could be in a dialogue with the one about collusion surely.
It seems like your coF is in the 'slave/master' role to NM. .... but in a really severe way, what you describe reminds me of a chapter in 'People of the Lie' by Scott-Peck, its a book basically about the problem of evil in humans
he seems to have no soul of his own at all.
How one could perhaps feel some degree of 'sorrowful concern' for someone like that, but probably only when you're well out of harms way. And in the case of a parent, the problem is we carrry a lot of the impact inside us, and so are easily triggered, and getting out of harms way isnt so easy.
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he seems to have no soul of his own at all.
No, I never saw any trace of a real person inside the physical body. We both worked in television, at different networks, so several of my co-workers had previously worked with him and knew him. They all described him the same way - jovial, silly, happy-go-lucky. I described him more bluntly as being "simple." He always acted like he was functionally retarded, in a Gump sort of way. He never expressed his own opinions, never engaged in serious conversations. His world was his wife, his bicycle, his favorite TV show. It never got any deeper than that. Perhaps he was afraid to show independent thought. After all, I did, and look what happened to me.
And agree, it was absolutely 100% collusion.
I have to tell you something that I find sad about my father. He worked for 50 years in the entertainment industry, many of those years for Dick Cavett and Dick Clark (American Bandstand). Every so often hubby and I would be watching some show on VH1, and he'd walk through the room and say, "Oh, that Janis Joplin, she was sure a firecracker." He knew or had met some of the most famous people in the world, but was never allowed to talk about it. After all, NM never got to meet Hendrix, or Joplin, or the Jackson 5. But Dad did. Every so often something would slip out, but I'm sure he kept it all inside so as not look more "important" than her. How sad. I'm sure he had some amazing stories to tell, but the fact that they were amazing forced him to keep them to himself. Complete and total mind control. A life wasted.
Even though I have been disinherited, and the GC has his Emmy, I do have ONE thing. I helped myself to it after my mother threw it in a box for the Salvation Army. It's a demo album from Nat King Cole, autographed to my father when he worked in radio at the start of his career. NM was going to throw it away. Yeah, Dad tossed me out with the trash, but I'll still treasure that album. I guess it represents what he really was, or what he could have been. :(
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Kathy,
Your post left me ghasping.
And almost speachless.
Its hard to explain, like a traffic jam wanting to be said all at once.
I hope this wont be offensive, its that I've been studying this dynamic from a professional point of view, because i was seeking understanding for my own expereinces. So I want to link up what you have said, and brought to life so vividly with the my technical understanding.
(My personal dream is to write about this in a humanised way, ie not specially for professionals)
In the first part you described what has been termed the split between the 'slave/master dynamic' and the 'self in exile'. (Easy to see who is which).
Perhaps he was afraid to show independent thought. After all, I did, and look what happened to me.
I think you got the essence of the dynamic, how it happens, as you point out, a 'there but for the grace of #God go I'.
Its still a stance that lacks both spirit and morality.
I wonder, too what broke his spirit? Tho I realise, some people go thro terrible stuff and still come out fighting.
(I
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............ continuing........
And then, he was so in the slave/master to her need for supply, he denied his own experiences too. But also, how he recognises Janice Joplin as Oh, that Janis Joplin, she was sure a firecracker
- the spirit he sees in her that he himself has lost?
............ and theres bits of my own story in here too.
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River, I've been asking myself my whole life what broke his spirit, and I keep coming back to co-dependency being passed from generation to generation, much like physical abuse is. Maybe it's a learned behavior. I never met my grandmother on my father's side, since she lived in South Africa, but I wonder if she was an N, and he knew no other life. He married one himself, and simply accepts it. I see this in my brother. He has also married an N, and puts up with an unbelievable level of abuse and control without ever complaining. He grew up in an environment where the wife had 100% control over the husband, so why would he question it? It's what he knows.
They say that most men who physically abuse their wives had fathers who physically abused their mothers. They grow up with it, accepting it as "normal." I suppose Co-D might be the same way.
My parents married at relatively young ages, so maybe my father never had the chance to really develop as an adult before she came along and "mothered" him. Just a thought.