Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sKePTiKal on January 17, 2011, 09:54:25 AM
-
Long story short - I gave up; stopped; maybe even forgot how - to "invite" people into my "world". I let myself be convinced that no one wanted to - or could - share that. I have a hard time believing - accepting - that people do LIKE me. It still scares the crap out of me.... unless they've been through something like what we share here. That was why my MIL was a such a miracle, for me. She'd never experienced anything like this; the bits I told her were like her soap-opera stories to her - something that she couldn't really understand about why people "are like that". Something not "real". I wish!
At the moment - and I don't know if this state is related to it or not - I'm having a real struggle with "saying things" without feeling like I'm in danger of invoking the N-monster response or like I'm being too blunt, tactless, direct, too personal... there is always a critic sitting on my shoulder; the political correctness cop - or the fear that "I shouldn't say that" because I'm not allowed to. And this isn't the productive kind of "self-consciousness"... so I'll take that discussion somewhere else.
Here's the "somewhere else".
I'm in the midst of what feels like a communication meltdown - that I can't "say" what I really mean... or am allowed to say it... because it will cause someone else to feel offended, or it will seem presumptuous, or whatever. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells again - unable to detect where the "landmines" are. So I'm not even certain what it is I WANT to say.
I feel awkward socially; like what I'm interested in is irrelevant to others. Like I don't really have any right to talk about certain things... like my opinion is "so far out there", I should be embarrassed and keep my mouth shut so that people won't know "the real me". As if what I say is automatically "wrong". Like I'm some moron, or misfit, or not "fit for human consumption". Like I don't deserve to take up space - even here, some days.
Hubby's been giving me a lot of feedback, on how I communicate with his sibs regarding the process of sorting, distributing and clearing their mom's things. I think I'm being sensitive to people's grieving processes - and how much they can handle at one time. Maybe even too sensitive - so that I'm starting to feel antsy about getting the process started, of reclaiming that space as part of my house. It's hard for me to tell if hubs' comments are his way of expressing his limits - or if he knows something about his brother & sister that I'm missing. They haven't given me that kind of feedback.
He and I are having a hard time with 24/7 togetherness, already... I don't know if this is all related or not yet. Just felt like it didn't belong on Lighter's thread... and it's sitting on my head right now like some hairy blob. Guess I'll go see if I can get out from under it enough to see what it really is... and come back later.
-
Amber: What you've brought up is certainly familiar to me. You could have left it on my rambling thread, no worries.
Come back and tell us what you've discerned for yourself, so we can discern it too; )
Light
-
How sensitive are you to your own needs about dealing with the thnigs mentioned? Your feelings have equal weight and importance.
Can you clarify your question? I'm not sure what you're asking me. My feelings about what? Needs about what? I feel like I missed part of a conversation... and I read what you wrote twice, Guest! I reread my post too. I'm not trying to be difficult; I just am missing part of a sentence... noun, verb, object... this is actually one part of what I'm trying to describe: sometimes I feel like I'm not even speaking the same language as others, right now. There are multiple circumstances; if I didn't know better - I'd say I was having flashbacks of being gaslighted.
I got out & planted some daffodils... my body feels better anyway, even if I am having a hard time getting warm again! C'mon spring...
-
You make a lot of sense, Guest - and I needed to hear those questions right now.
I've tried to answer, babbling away in my own free-association style, making connections with past - present, for the last 2 hours. None of it is coherent enough to post without upping the level of confusion - until it synthesizes, settles, and can be said without all the unnecessary "words" that are the syntax of all those connections (a computer coding reference again) or retelling a lot of parts of "my story".
The one thing I'm sure of - is that all this comes back to the "RULES" of protecting the sick person at the center of the dysfunctional FOO. And how we internalize all that into the nasty little voice that materializes on our shoulder (like bird-poop, no doubt) and whispers all kinds of nefarious - and untrue - stuff into our ears. Those rules, are the stuff that Lighter's "collusion" are made of. The voice is the long afterward "hangover" of being subjected - or willing to be subjected - to those rules and walking between the two worlds of normal folk and the delusional, paranoid beings that walk the earth.
I learned to worry more about protecting other people's feelings; worrying about their needs - more than mine. I have a tendency to be blind to those boundaries - because of empathy, wanting to be "needed" - therefore important and useful - because it was the best I could; all I could hope for in my FOO. It all really did come down to me in my FOO, Guest - if it was going to get done or happen - no one else was going to do it, except me. That's being repeated in my relationship with Hubs, in multiple ways.... and I've pointed it out to him, to minimal effect. It's a sore point - a trigger button of some kind - for him. I don't know what it relates to in his past. Or what feelings he has attached to it.
Some of it is me still trying to help MIL - the sibs have the same procrastination issues as hubs and they are quite busy with their own families - and I keep hearing her ask, when is this going to happen? When will they have time to do X? She would've done it all herself if she was able... but she knew she wasn't able. So I would help... to be fair, hubs did too. I have to step back for a bit and look at this again, in a wider angle lens.
Some of the fog is lifting and this is starting to make sense to me. The connection between the anxiety and self-consciousness, boundaries, RULES, etc. But too much is being processed in my brain too fast (too much coffee isn't helping that) right now to spit it out at the moment. Not everything that I'm processing is relevant to the topic, either. That's just side illuminations, like call-outs in a magazine or a sidebar.
-
((((((((((((((PR)))))))))))))))))
I get a feeling of you as just feeling overwhelmed with responsibility. Just as you describe as it was in your FOO.
Maybe you feel a truly massive amount of management or executive burden -- like being the captain of a coast guard vessel in a storm.
Maybe after what you've been through it's as though you are sailing through The Perfect Storm and don't realize that you are seeing more danger than there actually is. Or that -- really, the storm ended a couple days ago but you're white-knuckled at the bridge.
Perhaps you have an acute sense of massive responsibility and if you're not vigilant to doing everything right, or seeing to it that everyone else grasps priorities in the same fashion by explaining it... everyone will drown?
That may be tone-deaf of me but it's what I'm imagining. It sounds hard and draining (but you'd have to unloose your grip on the wheel to realize how tense you are).
(In a minor way I'm going through something a little like this here at work -- a coworker does not "get it", ignores the details I need while swamping me with distractions/explanations I DON'T need ... and it pushes all my being-controlled buttons and I way way over-react. Her "help" feels like obstruction rather than...help.)
xxoo breathing and peace and ease to you, and love,
Hops
-
Phoenix, I certainly relate to this, the whole lot of it! Is the quote bit your quote?
Actaully I was thinking of a thread, 'when do you come here'? which Ill do.
My own understanding (via m own experience) in relation to this is ~~~~
You found something so precious, healthy people/ family, and MIL. but theres a danger of losing it, if you say or do something like offend them. Any N is appropriating, they'll take/ spoil anything of value that is yours, so we arrive with that experience of everything good is about to be destroyed. Worse, that it will be demolished by something we do. And as you have been in flight/ rebellion from something that is 'ultra bad' ~ not to put too finer point on it, then to dissociate yourself from that, you need to be ultra good, and certainly not to offend/ get on the wrong side of those who are generally on the side of good.
Because we have spent so much of our existence in hand to hand combat with the forces of destruction (the battle ground of our souls), we havent been in the positoin, or had the luxury of buliding and living ourselves as 'well, bit imperfect, can be irritating, some blunders, rough at the edges, etc etc, we havent been able to see ourselves as imperfect in our own or others' eyes, because that means we may be associated with them'/ those forces/ people of destruction. And those forces are about annihilation of the 'self' of the person, and thats where we get caught in that paradigm, and feel voiceless. Triggered into the paradigm of what we were at the recieving end of, by implication at least. ('if you dont comply, you dont exist').
Thats how I've come to understand this type of thing. I have fallen down a black hole of shame at some totally tiny things at times. And also, so many people who cant relate to these struggles, I cant relate to those people,not really beyond a sort of polite friendlyh attempt. I mean, how can you be at a T party at the same time as in the trenches?
Dunno if this makes any sense, ...
-
makes lots of sense to me River.
-
You guys are GOOD, ya know? You're picking up on things I'm not even at the point of getting around to yet... (or am avoiding).
You're all "right" in your observations... but I'm gonna have to come back to them.
The connection between the communication issue - the feelings of being insignificant, out of place, "not allowed" to express myself; or my feelings - the connection between that and the RULES, is where I'm going. It's been another splinter festering, for a while.
Hubs likes to intervene in my conversations with others, sometimes. A friend of his was here and she & I connected on the topic of bioNic moms. Well, you all know how intense the emotions can get sometimes telling bits of our stories. He literally, will tell me "that's enough"... and try to stop the direction of the conversation, as if two adult women aren't able to share these kinds of "war stories" without all hell breaking loose. In other words: he is uncomfortable with the reality of what I've been through and the remaining intensity of my feelings about it.... and so, I'm "not allowed" to be who I am and make those connections with others who understand... because of how he feels.
It doesn't even have to be that kind of topic... it's like I'm socializing with my own personal "hall monitor" looking over my shoulder approving/disaproving my conversation. And it even spills over into how I do things... we had a huge, albeit brief argument at Christmas, because he wanted to tell me how I should be searing a roast - even though I was just fine with it and didn't ask him for any help; I did however ask him to do something else which he totally ignored - so he wound up getting the full force of old nuclear waste rage & anger. I have asked him - and warned him - to not volunteer to me "how to do something" because of the way bioNicMom used to harangue me about doing everything HER way - more RULES, you know? I was never able to follow those rules, either... because they weren't consistent. Never knew when I'd step on a landmine - get blown up; become a target for her - because the rules always shifted. (hard to grasp - along with her B&W way of seeing the world, you know?)
But, it's not just Hubs; I do this all by myself. I'll start critiqueing my own conversations with people and then out come the old tapes... "well, that was stupid... why did you say that? what are you trying to do, get them to like you? why are you asking them so many questions? don't talk about yourself! Don't talk about them! who do you think you are? Don't you know the RULES about how to act???" I do know I can just kick the little evil imp to the next county, but when hubs' is also "giving me that look", I second guess myself - even if no one else is signaling any discomfort or disinterest.
Well, since I wasn't allowed to talk if other people were around, we didn't go places or socialize... where did my bioNicMom think I was going to learn this??? And when I did learn it - at school, with friends and their parents - my behavior and how I interacted with others was still subject to approval/disapproval based on her RULES. She would sarcastically and wistfully tell me she needed to send me to "finishing school"... so that I could learn appropriate behavior. This - in the era of "let it all hang out". (that word: appropriate - in this context - is socially unacceptable to me, by the way; it's flat out demeaning to a child - and I've had it applied to me more than once as an adult ONLY because I expressed my emotions. It's not like I stood naked screaming F you in the middle of the room, either.) And anyway - wasn't that her job? Oh that's right - she didn't know how to do this either... so she just blamed other people for being stuck up; fakes; or out to take advantage of her...
So guess what happened when I learned some manners. Learned how to interact with others and started making friends? Then, the RULES changed... and now, I was putting on airs... being a little "princess" (which REALLY confused me, 'coz I've never been very girly) and oh yes - then, I was blamed for trying to make her feel bad.
SIGH. Water over the damn yes - but there's still flood damage. I don't have the "nasty little voice" criticizing every little move or word, when I'm functioning in a business capacity. With that hat on - I know where the boundaries are, I guess. And it's just occurred to me, that I've been able to establish some pretty friendly, more than business relationships that way, too. As if the role I'm in offers me a script, too. Automatic, known boundaries; where the rules don't change. Social situations, not so much.
Or maybe RULES is synonymous with boundaries, here? That's how confused I am about what I'm really trying to describe. Probably making it more complex than it is - but it sure feels that complex to me. I don't want to make hubs feel uncomfortable - but on the other hand - I really don't need him trying to edit me on the fly, either. He does things that make me uncomfortable too - but I don't call him on it, especially publically.... unless it's starting to turn into a "pick on Amber" fest. Then I do defend myself - and can do so, without going all nuclear, too. He really doesn't like that, but don't let him squirm out of having "started it" and ignoring my warning shots.
Some of this might be due to hubs' insecurities, too. The change we've been through - financially - puts us in social contact with the level of folk we used to work for. I keep saying - they're just people - but hubs tends to see them as their titles; as the power & money the title implies. He sees them as "those people". I keep reminding him... we're "those people" too, now. It's not like the Beverly Hillbillies, either - though that's one of his favorite self-deprecating analogies. The problem with even making a distinction of "those people" is that we're back to rules about how those people talk, act, are. Well................... bullshit.
"Those people" have trouble with their teenagers, have survived abusive relationships, have family issues.... or struggles in life.... or insecurities.... too. Because they're just people. Just like he & I. "Those people" have emotions, too. Emotions themselves aren't something to be ashamed of, are they? It leaves me sitting there people watching, observing (yes, guest I've done a lot of this too) wondering why it's OK for all those I'm watching to be themselves, express themselves emotionally... yet hubs' feels that this isn't "proper" or god-forbid "appropriate"... and so he feels he has to police me, as well as himself?? Doesn't he know I already have my own little evil cop passing judgement on every little thing??
OK. I'll try this again later or tomorrow. We've got another social thing tonight. I'm going to be paying very close attention, too.
-
Amber: Sounds like it's time to help your h understand the lilttle policeman in his own head...... then tell him about yours.
I know those little policemen in my sister's head, and my head, are more vigilant and critical when we're all together in a social situation.
My policeman watches her, and her's watches me..... I can just feel the anxiety building.... it's worse than when we're apart.
My sister and I might not be able to have a conversation about this, but maybe you and your darling husband could?
Wouldn't it be nice to shut those cops up, eventually, once and for all?
Let us know how the evening went.
Lighter
-
Things went just fine - we both had some fun. We had to cut things a bit short and run off, since our weekend guests - hubs' daughter & family - decided to arrive early. We had a late night last night... so I'll come back & fill in, later. I think I've got things a bit skewed - even in my explanation.
Hubs and I are still adjusting to our new "status"... so maybe some of this anxiety is "normal", under the circumstances. If we weren't a little in awe... feeling a bit "underdressed" or unsure of ourselves... maybe we'd have a whole more serious stuff to worry about!!
-
So..... what I think all this was about, is the residual toxicity of the radioactive waste of toxic shame. And how that was actually involved in a doublebind, for me. The old, not accepted "the way I am" feeling, being targeted in the FOO... twisting myself all up to at least find a "useful" place there... and therefore, being "different" from other people, when away from those idiotic RULES... and therefore again - having the basic anxiety of worrying about what the RULES are, in places where the kind of abuse I had to accept as "normal", do not exist.
It's lazy thinking to not question whether there are those kinds of RULES, outside of a situation or system designed to protect a sick one at the center. And I wasn't even making the connection to shame - when it was right in front of my face. OK. Moving on....
A LOT of the things that got stuck in my head and my feelings about interacting with other people - because they came from the FOO RULES - is wrong. I thought I'd addressed all these already, but clearly not. One of the big ones, was BioNic Mom's insistence that "we weren't like all those other people". With the subtext that of course, we were better and that "THEY" were bad (in all cases, at all times - B&W thinking - because THEY would think x, y, z about us (projection of judging & envy &...) and try to take advantage of us (paranoia). In reality - in normal situations - those "RULES" don't exist; they don't need to because everyone's using their boundaries... and those are flexible; adaptable; and they change - people go in/out of boundaries.
I'm seeing "control" come up in a couple different threads; the different ways abusers try to control others... the ways we feel we've been controlled... the radioactive waste of control. Trying to control others; a need to control others - in order to feel OK about oneself - is one of the things I'd like to see as a criteria in the DSM - for the disorders connected to abuse of others.
There is a flavor of that controlling, that gets mirrored into people who've been the subjects of that kind of control (I really don't like the word victim here). We learn that controlling others is "OK" - "normal" - because that's what we experience in those situations. And sometimes, survival depends on learning how to control that sick person at the center, too. We're not comfortable when the RULES of that control aren't well-known. Placate, negotiate, distract, bend over backwards... go above & beyond the call of duty... only to have the modicum of solace we need, to be able to carry on. That kind of metamorphosis of the SELF is predicated on knowing what the RULES are... or being able to discern the RULES, quickly - on the fly - as the RULES change or the situation changes.
So, I've invented my little imp on my shoulder whispering all kinds of nasties about me - to me - to embody the concept of the internalization of that sick-o world.... and I forget, damn it - that I'm not helpless to flick the little bastard off my shoulder. When I forget, then I'm back to where I used to be with the anxiety again. It is very helpful that I've learned to look for reality-based feedback from other people to counter that kind of crap... and I'm thankful you all chimed in with your observant questions and ideas, too!
Because boating is a popular recreational thing here, the neighborhood social club is called the Yacht Club. We were encouraged to join - owning a boat isn't necessary - as a way to meet people, so we did. Of course, it conjured up all kinds things in our imagination about what it was... what the people were like. Everything from Gilligan's Island to people dressed to the nines, sipping champagne, and talking about their brokerage accounts???? In a way, we were pre-judging these people in our minds... applying the same of "rules" about people that I worry about people applying to me. SIGH.... Well, it turns out that really it's just a group of neighbors who like to socialize together and they are all different kinds of people. I allowed myself (duh) to people-watch at most of the events through the year... sitting on the fringe... never approaching anyone.
The very first event, a woman - J - came and introduced herself, was quite friendly... and we talked for a while. I found myself liking her a lot. I didn't have - or make - an opportunity to talk to her again, until our other social event (unrelated to the club) this week. So I just walked up and said hi... she's this year's hospitality committee chairperson and I'd been called to help her out in the midst of MIL's medical crises... so I didn't commit at the time and was letting all this anxiety build up about what that committment might entail. The yacht club events aren't elaborate things - buffet-style picnic food, byob, some music and just people hanging out talking to each other. With my past - I've never entertained much and last summer's constant stream of family visitors was a serious challenge for me - for exactly the same reason as this other anxiety - more on that below. So, I told J that I'd been contacted to help her out (she didn't recognize me from the yacht club)... and warned her that I didn't have a lot of experience hostessing. She said she didn't either and that people are "in for it", since they've gotten so used to the past chairperson's success. I laughed and said we'd try to avoid having a kegger... and she laughed... et voila - no anxiety!
Over the last summer, my anxiety waxed & waned with the various groups of people who came to visit. Different circumstances, and in my own head - my own "assessment" (a nicer word for judgement, eh??) of what each group's expectations of me would be. And I became a tyrant to myself about people that I didn't know as well... people who I felt might have higher expectations of my "hostess skills" than I had in reality. Back then, I was hypersensitive to boundaries and navigating those with these folks - (remember - they're all family; his - mine - and a friend of mine from where I used to work that I'm still close to). So I noticed something over the course of the summer about control... and how I was driving myself to meet some expectation that I THOUGHT people would have of me, as my guests. Like I was trying to control whether or not everyone was happy, enjoying themselves, had food they liked, activities they liked - etc.
LOL!!!!! How nuts is that? How impossible is that? I puzzled over the let-down feeling I had as people made plans to entertain themselves... and were able to manage all kinds of things "all by themselves" and didn't need to be waited on hand & foot. Well, of course, I felt like I'd "failed".... I didn't come up to the expectations of the "rules"... I failed to "control" for all the variables... and so I'd try to drive myself even harder.
All this stuff just rumbled around right below the surface of conscious thought... radioactive waste... fueling those anxious feelings... making me feel like I'm from another planet... speaking a completely different language... getting all twisted up trying to be something I've conjured up as "perfect"... so that I'll be "liked", accepted, part of the group - and not seen as some weirdo from a dysfunctional family pretending to be a "normal" person.
And this happens outside of my attention, most especially, during those times I'm being a total home-body, hermit, closing in the wagons - like hubs & I have been doing since MIL died. Duh. Time to flick the little imp back to hell - and off my shoulder for good!
So yeah... all my old over-responsibility pops up again... and I worry about trampling boundaries (coz of the need to control/fix everyone and everything)...and in the process sell-out my own needs... and hubby looks like he might into a category better reserved for one of my FOO... and the next thing I know... I'm practically inventing problems for myself - beseiged yet again - because I just didn't carve out enough time for me, or sign up for that exercise class, or made a new friend I can go out & have coffee with... just for a change from hubby.
Thanks everyone. I'm "over this" now. I hope I don't forget again!!
-
A cousin of mine had a mania for being a supra-adequate woman/hostess/daughter/mother/volunteer/homemaker. (I don't know anybody who's truly untouched by all that programming, even without an abusive childhood. Even non-Nsurvivor-people, not exclusively but particularly women, in this culture, have times of pure terror and/or mania about doing domestic, social, and relational things "right"). Makes me sad but I can get swept up in it too sometimes.
Anyway, her kids had given her a shirt that had in elegant print on the front: "Martha Stewart does not live here".
It's really nice to think of you gladly discovering the humanity of the beings around you, Amber...I can relate so much to all sorts of "Us" and "Them" scripts. Part from NMom, part from Southern Woman training, part from being American, on and on. Ugggh.
My first bf's family was ultra wealthy. They introduced me to a nice man named Joe Hellman who lived next door to their winter home in Rye, NY. I went, hello, Mr. Hellman. Wasn't until 2 days later I figured out it was Hellman's Mayo Joe.
Anyway, I learned his family well and was part of it for several years. They were so not immune to tragedy, dysfunction, heartbreak, confusion and pain. By the time we broke up (amicably) -- I was inoculated from feeling lesser than. My class resentments can still get activated but only when people I'm close to (e.g., church) make blundrous assumptions about others' ability to do things that cost.
And who wouldn't have that fantasy about a "yacht" club? I bartended at one once. What was funny about the place is that the tongers and oystermen would park at the bar for their beers during the week, and on the weekends I'd wait on very Poncey People who motored in on their yachts. It would have been reflexive to like the workingmen better, and in many ways I did because their lives were more interesting and poetic, but it's also true many of them were deeply racist, so that was unattractive. But the swells who came in making a huge production of how they wanted their margaritas...feh.
I love shore culture. But the English class thing is evident there. I don't blame you for wondering.
(By the time they figure out a creative individualistic woman is among them, you'll see how happy many are to have an interesting friend like you, and a sweet new man around like Hubs...because you're who YOU are, not because you're a clone of who they are.)
And of course anybody not smart enough to see that would be kind of dull...
love,
Hops
-
Well, Hops - there's that little, subtle connection between my own judging of other people... and how I expect & worry I will be judged by others that's interesting. Of course I almost made myself sick about the debutante culture - but then, I remembered a series of hilarious books by a group of southern ladies - "The Sweet Potato Queens". You'd like these!
Guest: yes, it's way more fun to give up "control"... but there does need to be one responsible adult in a household... and guess who's it, in mine? The hubs pushes a whole lot of my old FOO script buttons about this... and I've explained... and he's listened - but he hasn't "heard". Nothing's changed... and really, in the greater scheme of things... I do feel like the things I bring up are relatively "minor", small issues... but even my specific requests for him to help out around the house get displaced in his attention... because he doesn't acknowledge that it's important to me. "Don't sweat the small stuff" he'll say. And then, what I care about is "small stuff" and that'll spiral into "I don't matter"...and, of course, I'm "bad" because instead of paying attention or spending time with him - I'm doing what he didn't do.
Yeah... I know what kind of game this is. And it's contributing to this feeling of communication issues - of speaking and no one "hears". I'm beginning to think I need to decide to do something different about it.
-
I dunno if they walked on eggshells, exactly. There is the walking entitlement of the rich. But despite their multiple homes (one with 500 acres) they didn't seem freed by their wealth. There was always worrying about the property and the stuff. When I socialized with them there was no lightness in the air. They seemed really burdened. Well dressed, well fed, well wheeled, well servanted. But not happy. Later they sent one of their kids to do a summer activity they knew I was on the staff for--asked me if I'd keep a special eye on him. He was in trouble. A few years after that when the bf and I had our annual lunch, I asked about the little bro, whom I'd been very fond of. He'd committed suicide. The parents broke up. My former bf had carved out some happiness by his third marriage but the whole family was driven by stuff, getting more, protecting what they had, fighting over dregs, maintaining their status. It felt empty, tragic and depressing.
I truly would like more money so I didn't have to work so hard I wear out. Or could give time to writing or doing things that help. But I would not like the "lifestyle". Cars, servants, being waited on eternally, moving around in a glossy bubble. Having to hire so many people just to keep the whole enterprise functioning. It feel prison-like. Fancy prison, but still.
For me, a bungalow, a small sunny yard, and retiring to write would be bliss. Even that, these days, seems nearly out of reach.
Rambling,
Hops
-
Guest, was I missing a simple joke about mayo?
Eggshells?
:lol:
-
And surely...anyone who can be this perceptive...
what you really yearn for is to be a full member of the group that is those left behind by MIL. When your H edits your comments (your expressed feelings), the bottom line is a feeling of exclusion. The sibs are the "real" group, you need to take care of their feelings. When the sibs dont create a plan for dealing with the stuff in your house, the sense is that your role in this loss is unacknowledged.
could get an MSW and be eternally successful for the next several decades as a counselor?
Wow.
Hops
-
Awww, thanks, Hops. You are very affirming...
We'll see if the thought is really any help to Amber....I am pretty hit and miss with my insights. Probably like everybody.
Love
CB
-
Guest:
That third group - is it kinda like a whole series of connections? Like a network? complex, and relationships dependent on other primary relationships... like the internet? (If then, else statements)
I relate to what you've said about how the "groups" don't exist in reality; my understanding is that "group" is my perception of people of interacting together and the functional/dysfunctional connections between them. Perception - for me - is a whole bunch of emotions, attitudes, likes/dislikes, blenderized together... some facts; some subjective preferences... into a concoction that I call experiential "reality". That reality, isn't solely fact-based.
-
I've had that same experience... of finding out how what I believed to true... was so very wrong. Sometimes, it's even just been that I have a new perspective (from my advancing age! HA..) that's just way different than at 21; 30... I think that's what I meant in the subject - the ???? - stands in for hey, tell me if my perception is out of whack here... if I'm only looking at things through the "old" lens/perception of dysfunction vs... another explanation yet to be revealed (and one that's perfectly sane, rational, normal...).
I just have lingering pockets of doubt, regarding my own perception... courtesy of gaslighting, I guess.
The doubt can be a problem of it's own. An extra layer of complexity...decoding... translation...
-
I have so many of the same issues that you have with your H...what to do with his sensitivity to your emotional state (caretaking you when you dont need caretaking), his need to tell you how to do things that you know how to do, his lack of attention to things that would TRULY help you and that you have asked for. In my marriage, it was a constant battleground...with him being an N, I was not allowed to even THINK he was out of line. So there was that, and it was hopeless.
But now I am in a relationship without the N factor, but to my surprise, those other factors still exist. I have found it very difficult, but I have been able to get to the bottom of it some. The common denominator for me is the need to feel HEARD, UNDERSTOOD, AFFIRMED by him. All the things above are symptoms (to me) of the OPPOSITE. Although to be fair, they may not be symptoms of that at all TO HIM. I wonder if you are in much the same place? Your H seems like a very nice guy...but kinda clueless on some levels.
This is an important observation, CB. From the standpoint, that we expect (or hope) to not experience the same things we did with an N-whoever... when in relationship with someone who's not an N. I've been thinking about this. It's almost as if (sorry for the visual image) my emotional discomfort from experience #1 is engraved on a mirror (of my own perception?) in a specific pattern... and when something "appears" to fit within that pattern... up comes the same ole discomfort.
Pavlov comes to mind - maybe that's 'coz that's where I started trying to understand my own crap - in that I'm programmed to respond with a "no-no-no-not that again" response... to behavior from hubs that has a completely different intention from my N-moms' same/similar treatment and/or symptoms. I'm not experiencing it as a completely new situation, with a different person... that engraving on the mirror matches so perfectly... that my snap-judgement perception what's going on is... identical. And of course his perception of my reaction makes absolutely no sense to him and he's mystified. Kind of like MIL, not believing that my mother completely "forgot" my birthday... not understanding that there are people like this.*
Even when there's a high level of trust in the new situation/person - that engraving on the perceptual mirror remains as a trigger-button. Unless of course, I'm present enough to interrupt the reflex process... and for me, there's a complication with having to be so "present", in that I associate that with hypervigilance... having to be on guard against a boundary violation... or something/someone hitting one of those mirror engravings.
I suppose the mirror could be repolished... the engraving buffed out; or there's always my favorite sound - that of breaking glass; or maybe I can actually find a way to "walk through" the stupid mirror... hmmmm.
*These kinds of things happened a couple of times with MIL & me. Just a couple of times, before she was able to "read" me... and start to understand what was behind the "doesn't make sense" reaction. Maybe she understood more about the impacts of "people like that" than she was saying...
The common denominator for me is the need to feel HEARD, UNDERSTOOD, AFFIRMED by him. All the things above are symptoms (to me) of the OPPOSITE.
This is a real hard one to explain to someone who's never experienced being tortured by a person who is simultaneously proclaiming how much they love you, how this is "for your own good", and who - no matter what you did, said - was ever satisfied with you, or your efforts... hubs doesn't understand that his "acts of kindness" fit into an engraving on my mirror that comes with a red-alert warning to "watch out - duck- here it comes!"
We've made some progress with this over the years. But in some ways, the more I understand about it - the more it's been in the way. I wonder how I go about "letting this go"? Whether it's in changing the mirror... changing my pavlovian response (retraining myself)... I wonder if I can convince myself that this is a "learned response"... a survival strategy that's no longer needed... since it's so engrained in my experience that it would logically be assumed to be a real "part" of me???
-
I am really learning from this thread. Thank you, PR--and CB.
I feel as though in your descriptions I recognize a kind of brittleness that I often feel in close relationships--mainly with men. It is about a sense of desperation I feel when they don't understand what I want or when they don't take something I've been hyper-careful to communicate as seriously as I do.
I think sometimes it's a trace of my Dad's OCD-ish perfectionism. I sometimes will OVERexplain something to do, and then they'll do it imperfectly (or insert their own inclinations into the process, which changes the method I have fulfilled in my head...before the reality). And it can trigger a kind of desperation -- comes out at irritability or edginess. Even anxiety. Over-reaction. But at other times it's even triggered flight from the relationship.
The thing I think about is the desperation. Disproportionate. And in my case, definitely about control.
I think when I was bullied by my brother at home and by the herd at school, I felt nearly 24/7 profoundly helpless, completely without control of my own peace, and without allies. (Except for occasional comforting times with my gentle though ineffectual Dad.) With the general daily bullying "torture" I experienced-- learning to articulate, to think, to begin to wield the power of communication (language, writing, speaking) was enormous for me. It felt like survival itself. It also led to the first time in my life when I was treated with respect. That was late high school, but one day a teacher took a story I wrote and read it to the class with great respect. Then I won a prize or two. It changed everything for me (and it was all about being able to convey stuff w/language).
In close relationships (even currently, with a coworker here who pushes all the same buttons) I think it gets tested. I have some lingering rage I'm not in touch with, about being bullied. I am so intent on never letting anyone bully me, that I lay out a minefield of instructions/expectations that are really intended to help me survive. Not just to help me get a task done effectively.
When someone doesn't cooperate, or is sabotaging (sometimes from resentment at my over-zealous instructions) or passive-aggressive...I really feel fury and frustration. It's extremely unpleasant. I let go of it as fast as I realize it's happening but do not like it. (I am phobic about anger. Early religious training plus my nature.)
The other thing this thread reminded me of is the notion of "self-soothing". I think it's as huge in importance to survivors of Ns as assertiveness is, but I forget about it a lot. I think it's something I've really neglected to get good at, and if I did, the other kind of reactivity would be sidelined, I think.
I figured out with my T yesterday that I am not sure I deserve love. After all this time. I feel a sense of failure in many critical parts of my life. I didn't realize until I said it to him, that when looking at the idea of trying to find love, I veer away...because if I've failed, then perhaps I actually don't deserve to be loved. (So if someone fails to be supportive or cooperative--even in minor things--perhaps I'm taking that as proof?)
So if I can figure out where the desperation at lack of cooperation or instructions-following comes from, and learn to practice self-soothing as a first priority (rather than correcting another), and remind myself I am deserving of love....
I'd be all better.
love,
Hops
-
I figured out with my T yesterday that I am not sure I deserve love. After all this time. I feel a sense of failure in many critical parts of my life.
Hops has said it... and I think we can swap out any number of things for the word "love" in what she said. Respect, dignity, happiness, "normalcy" (whatever that is)... and I can relate to that feeling of a sense of failure, too.
Where it comes from - for me - is from the particular configuration of perception that I use to look at "everything", myself included. The more I've learned and observed, about dysfunctional families, relationships... the more it became the context of my perception; how I defined the world... other people; myself... and how I determined the success or failure of my relationships and changing my own self. There is a "language" of healing that becomes the lens of perception, sometimes. It's only one lens, though. There are others. Looking at things with other lenses - really, it's not so bad and those feelings lift some, too. The "absolutes" stretch out further and there are more points on the continuum - outside of the context of the type of perception I've spoken from a lot here and interpreted my experience and world from, while healing.... and learning about this one type of flawed interaction among people.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
I'm too easily pulled into trying to "work on myself"... to reach some brilliant (ha!) understanding... to re-arrange and re-cast myself into some new mold... in a primal attempt to "fix what's wrong with me"... to be loved; to consider my successes and failures in absolute terms... because I've lived all my life with that basic reality between me & my bioNic mom:
nothing I could do, be, become, learn... would ever change the basic, simple fact of her illness that prevents her from caring about others, myself included.
And I accepted that - but I accepted that as a failure on my part; I accepted the role of victim in my own story (had to, to get the grief and loss out); I accepted that I've internalized a complete set of coping strategies for dealing with "the sick person at the center" - including my own version of controlling; managing her - for the purpose of "staying safe". This acceptance became that lens of perception... how I interpreted my experience; my world - and the people in it.
I kind of slid into this... despite a lot of successes "doing something else". It was subtle and insidious... not wholly volitional - sort of a "default" setting that is equal to my "comfort zone" of old crap; old misery; old patterns; yada-yada-yada... sure, there were triggers and repetitions of old patterns with my bro. Sure my hubs tweaks a lot of my buttons...
but the only reason it's still a "problem" is because I'm still using the old "lens" to define it as another iteration of the "same old, same old". It's as if I've stigmatized myself - carved out my own red letter "A" or tattoo'd it on my forehead... and resigned myself to only this one way of understanding my world and my life. To analyze it all to death... to use the perceptual lens of the victim... as way of understanding "the normal world". And that perception "fits" often enough in that world... that it seemed helpful, useful... and sometimes it is. But not always. And though this one perception is very familiar and has adjusted to fit right right around me like an old pair of slippers - I'm noticing that those slippers really stink! They're frayed around the edges from over-use, dirty past the point of getting clean again... and they no longer provide enough "illusion" of safety anymore; they're no longer as comfortable as they used to be.
My psychological understanding of people and their interactions is just flat out making things more complicated than they need to be. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. My inner perception of myself - my acceptance of a time when I was a victim - isn't relevant anymore. And using that perception to understand and define what's going on around me now - in those terms - doesn't make sense, either. So, I'm left with feeling as though I'm speaking foreign languages... with one foot in one world/perception and one foot in another... and so, I'm making myself feel "not heard"; misunderstood; and re-wounding myself... in both - by not just picking one and going with it. See where it goes and what it is. And I've done this one enough, I think.
Even some of the new things I learned about myself on this journey, have turned out to be wrong. Big example - was that I learned and felt I needed a lot solo time; solitude... and that it was a solid, inflexible boundary that would be stressed by hosting so many people here last summer. Sure, I'm still anxious about this - but no one was hurt and nothing bad happened; I had plenty of personal time and didn't have any ill effects, when I didn't get it. It was hubs who pointed out that boundaries are like fences and that they need gates for people to be invited in... and for me to go out. Somewhere along the process, I also realized that boundaries are always shifting - like wind ripples on a sand dune... and that a better metaphor, is concentric circles - so that there's an "inner circle" and even an "inner-inner circle"... and many outer circles... and that people are constantly shifting between them - of their own volition and my choices; my invitations. You guys are all part of my "inner-inner" circle; the people can I trust to understand even my most convoluted, confused, overly complex ways of thinking about things. Your opinions, experience and feedback and ways of seeing things; understanding things is important to me... along with just the wonderful "who you are".
It's really not all that hard - as long as I remember that RULES and never-changing absolutes only exist in those dysfunctional situations. Where "control" and who has it, is the perceptual lens of interpersonal relationships. Control is way less important in other kinds of situations with other people. When that old perception is let go - the door to other ways of perceiving situations and other emotions and other ways of being and defining the world around me - gets flung wide open and a wonderful fresh breeze blows in and removes all the "old" dust and blows the stinks away.
It's really hard to believe that's possible when one is still eating the bitter pie of grief and loss and all is dark and gloomy, wet and dank... at the beginning or middle parts of one's journey. I've wanted to encourage people... to say "it's worth it!" and "keep going, you're doing great!" because I do care about y'all. In some cases, you've heard me and understood. You've even heard the things I avoid looking at or saying, many times. A couple of times, it's felt like I'm speaking in tongues and I realize that person isn't ready for that yet; can't hear it because of the immediate volume of emotional noise around them or their own lens of perception, way of accepting, or language of healing. Being a persistent cuss and eternally hopeful... I've probably pissed quite a few of you off with my trying! I hope you can forgive me. Maybe it's silly... but I want all of us, each one of us here... to see what I'm seeing about what it's like beyond the "same old, same old"...
because we all deserve that.
Right?
:D
-
wow:
nothing I could do, be, become, learn... would ever change the basic, simple fact of her illness that prevents her from caring about others, myself included.
And I accepted that - but I accepted that as a failure on my part
Directly to the heart of the whole thing.
Thank you, (((((Amber))))).
I am clapping hard along with Guest.
love,
Hops
-
I hear you, on the responsibility side of the equation Guest. Yes, those folks in my inner circles can count on me to be there, do whatever they need... and sorta help them, help themselves. But sometimes, I forget that I don't wear a spandex catsuit (oooo.... not pretty!) and cape, all the time. I can't say I even know where I can best be of assistance; I make plenty of mistakes. And I'm taking risks, too - I'm no more immune from being rewounded by the depth of misery and sadness that exists in the world, now, than I used to be. The only difference, is that I know when to turn that channel "off" and go for a walk, now.
The "over-responsibility" that comes from protecting the sick one at the center - upon whom, all survival without torture depends - has in the past caused me to insert myself into too many things; to over-volunteer myself; to try to be everything to everyone... and yes, even drive myself to exhaustion thinking... pondering... on the big questions in life; trying to find solutions or untangle the big "issues of the day" in current life. And that's kinda how I'm feeling about viewing everything that happens through that one particular lens of psychological abuse/healing... I've taken it to an extreme; where it becomes more of an obstacle and less of a help.
I have to ask myself: self - how can you enjoy life and people, if you're always one step removed, focussed on sorting out your own and everyone else's roles, motivations, and the subtle "games" that go on? It's great that I recognize the symptoms of things going south now... and know that it's OK for me to have boundaries now about that stuff... but if I allow myself to analyze everything, everyone I encounter... it's like a program running in the background on my computer - it uses resources, slows everything else down, and can even lock up the whole machine! And as useful as this skill is... there are lots of other ways of understanding or seeing things.
When my 60 lb dog insists on laying on my lap and being petted - he's not being "co-dependent"; when he paws me awake to go out at 3:30 am... he's not controlling.
-
Hopsy -
I spent quite a while researching and learning about attachment issues. I still miss Carolyn - Certain Hope - because she helped push me along on that topic. For me, I'm sure that this is the source of the feeling that I don't deserve to be loved - and yet work so hard to be... and why I have such high anxiety and trepidation about truly intimate relationships. And I know you remember how I saw the parallels between this issue and my self-destructive smoking habit. (still reducing... comfortably, btw).
It's really the ultimate double-bind, to my way of thinking.
Mom = source of food, connection/acceptance, comfort, protection, survival
Mom = terror (of unpredictability, becoming a target, of not being safe), humilation & shame, constant dissatisfaction, constant control, complete denial of my right to my feelings (or even existence of my feelings)
It's like some twisted zen koan!! Especially considering that I at least half-consciously realized that I "needed" to maintain the fiction of the single-parent family until I was 18. I couldn't live with her; couldn't get to 18 without her... and part of me was clear enough to realize this was my only viable avenue of "escape".... even though it didn't really turn out that way. I've been stuck for a long time.... with the "mom in my head". I'm still trying to convince myself, prove to myself - that this "mom in my head" isn't the way other people are. Proving that is kinda scary... simply because all people can be a little bit that way, at one time or another. But, it's not their totality of being.
Confused yet? I don't blame you! It is confusing. I think our concepts of love, intimacy (even with ourselves), boundaries, comfort... all that is based, according to attachment theory, on the type of relationship we had with ole mom. And attachment starts in infancy... and most of us can't remember that far back. I can't either - except for a handful of things that were engraved on my brain in technicolor. So far, there are few different kinds of attachment that have been proposed - secure, disturbed, insecure - but I really want to add one to describe how I felt with my mom... terrorized. I only felt "safe" when she wasn't around. And that sort of violates the "laws of nature", you know?
Terror is traumatic... even when it's delivered as a constant drip-drip-drip in daily existence. Trauma sort of "sets in stone" some of the elements of that experience; it gets internalized, in my lingo. Things that are internalized usually are seen as an integral "part of us"; who we are; our self. I'm coming to realize... slowly... that's not necessarily so. It's like this one thing blotted out, covered up, hid all the OTHER things I am... including the ones that I wasn't allowed to be, without incurring the wrath of the "dragon-mother"... you know - the REAL ME which always got me sent to my room - not that imitation mask of my mom that I had to wear to be allowed within her sight.
I had to forgive myself for not being able to be her, successfully enough... to earn her "love" (which I'm still not persuaded she has any). I had to accept that the real me... without all that crap forced into/onto me... was just fine; maybe a little raw & unrefined at times... a little feral... but with the right "fostering", I learned to be socialized OK. I'm not the misbegotten gnome of a twisted up person that I had to PRETEND to be... to survive living with her.
I'm still learning... that "love" doesn't require this kind of awful personal, internal stuff. I don't have to anticipate or expect that people will want this kind of psychological gymnastics or contortion of me. Without a fear of more trauma... without needing hypervigilance for signs of that... or trying to mind-read or analyze all the time... I'm finding I have more energy and more head space for me, the people I want to spend time with... and the things I like to do. I'm still vulnerable to my own thought-patterns that flash warning signs & overwhelm & retreat & confusion... but in baby-steps, I'm starting to relax more and that means I enjoy more.
Still, I'm just a beginner... so I have my little panic attacks from time to time... I get lost & forget the little bits of what I've already proved to myself. I feel at loss to discover what the RULES are... because there aren't any of those kinds of RULES outside of a warped relationship. I over-compensate, I feel awkward & self-conscious... but like guest says: no one dies. As my tai chi teachers says: nothing bad happens.
-
I hear that, PR.
So articulate and clear.
I sometimes think one challenge is when my traumatized bits get triggered...it lasts quite a while. for example, a month later, nothing to do with an indirect signal from my brother (diluted through two attorneys and a realtor) -- and I get freaked out by a minor interaction with a coworker (the one I've belatedly set appropriate boundaries with).
Another thing your post made me think about was the idea that having histories of abuse maybe makes one sometimes look for perfect safety. I know I have (hence, hyperviligance, or running from connection).
I think something I will be helped by pondering is good-enough safety. Knowing that if I've explained my needs as well as I can, and the other person is not a real N but just another clayfoot like me...then I will not get my needs perfectly met, and I will not be perfectly safe.
But I will be safe enough. Most of the time I have good-enough safety. And even, good-enough needs meeting. (The latter only when I take primary responsibility for setting things in motion that will meet them.)
Self soothing
Good enough safety
Most needs met pretty well
I think these are the things I need to enrich my perception of.
love to you, much.
Hops
-
It's really the ultimate double-bind, to my way of thinking.
Mom = source of food, connection/acceptance, comfort, protection, survival
Mom = terror (of unpredictability, becoming a target, of not being safe), humilation & shame, constant dissatisfaction, constant control, complete denial of my right to my feelings (or even existence of my feelings)
Terror is traumatic... even when it's delivered as a constant drip-drip-drip in daily existence. Trauma sort of "sets in stone" some of the elements of that experience; it gets internalized, in my lingo. Things that are internalized usually are seen as an integral "part of us"; who we are; our self. I'm coming to realize... slowly... that's not necessarily so. It's like this one thing blotted out, covered up, hid all the OTHER things I am... including the ones that I wasn't allowed to be, without incurring the wrath of the "dragon-mother"... you know - the REAL ME which always got me sent to my room - not that imitation mask of my mom that I had to wear to be allowed within her sight.
PR,
I really relate to what you have written, as well as the journey you have described in this thread. I too am a big believer in Attachment Theory.
I recently came across a web site which I found very helpful in crystalizing, clarifying the attachment/terror/trauma trio & hope you find it helpful:
http://drkathleenyoung.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/relationships-after-severe-trauma-making-healthy-choices/
Relationships after Severe Trauma: Making Healthy Choices
..."Attachment theory addresses the vulnerabilities abuse survivors face when attempting to form later relationships."
Here's a list of all her articles:
http://drkathleenyoung.wordpress.com/article-list/
Here's another web site therapist that I really like:
Narcissistic Parent: Collateral Damage
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=askvictoria#p/u/24/pgWd4DVYHR4
Compensating Childhood Behaviours: They May Not Be Needed Anymore!
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=askvictoria#p/u/20/w-mUl7LlR3s
HTH,
ann
-
Hi Ann - these are good links! It'll take me awhile to read through things, but what I like is that she can explain what still feels to me, to be a very complex "dance" in simple language. Much easier to process than my own descriptions!
How've you been?
Hops - let's add "good enough Hops" to the list, too. Good enough, to my way of thinking... and when you have opportunity and energy to reach for more... well, nothing's stopping you. I think sometimes, I've gotten addicted to a self-improvement or self-observation treadmill (along with the self-judging part, too)... and if I'd just stop thinking there's some "magic place" long enough to look around me... it's all pretty much "good enough". I can stand down from that effort too - and do something else.
That's another long-term effect from the kind of attachment I had... reframing that into an "I want" instead of an "I need" just made me more dis-satisfied with myself... I just wanna REST!! And go out or stay home... have some fun... and just do/be ordinary stuff for awhile.
I don't always have this current level of clarity - where my thoughts came together around all the diverse things that sparked this topic. Thinking I ought "quit while I'm ahead"... before I go way off on tangents again.
CB's contribution is worth re-reading a couple more times... it started this avalanche of ideas falling together into some kind of coherency.
-
Glad you like it, PR.
I think that "Ask Victoria" T is amazing. Spent hours watching her videos. I think she really "gets it", like Dr. Grossman.
I'm doing OK. Just got off the phone with my Nish/full N sibling. I'm drained & have indigestion!!!!!!!!!!!!
But, everything is transient. Every moment, every thought, feeling, emotion passes. Trying to live in the moment.
zenfully yours,
ann
-
PR,
More home work....or Self Work.
I wanted to share that I joined HayHouse Radio for $48 per year, gives me access to their entire audio archive.
Anyway, I've been listening to Caroline Myss's show called "DEFY GRAVITY". Myss intuitively diagnoses & sometimes cures physical illnesses & she is a mystic. So, I'm listening to her shows from 2006 onward. It's a lot of info & a lot of healing.
What I really like about her is that she oozes Wisdom. I think you might like her. Here's the web sites:
http://www.hayhouseradio.com/
http://www.hayhouseradio.com/hosts.php?author_id=59
http://www.hayhouseradio.com/about_wisdom.php
-
CB's contribution is worth re-reading a couple more times... it started this avalanche of ideas falling together into some kind of coherency.
CB's contributions are always worth re-reading. CB is a very wise woman. I have learned a lot from her & I marvel at her journey: such courage, grace & piercing perception.
-
As has been the case recently, my time is very limited but I simply wanted to drop in and say that reading from the beginning, your point:
The connection between the communication issue - the feelings of being insignificant, out of place, "not allowed" to express myself; or my feelings - the connection between that and the RULES, is where I'm going. It's been another splinter festering, for a while.
is so similar to what I have been writing about most recently. Trying to get perspective from the outside in - so difficult. Why is my perspective so difficult to convey to others????
Exhausting. Frustraiting. Isolating.
So..... what I think all this was about, is the residual toxicity of the radioactive waste of toxic shame. And how that was actually involved in a doublebind, for me. The old, not accepted "the way I am" feeling, being targeted in the FOO... twisting myself all up to at least find a "useful" place there... and therefore, being "different" from other people, when away from those idiotic RULES... and therefore again - having the basic anxiety of worrying about what the RULES are, in places where the kind of abuse I had to accept as "normal", do not exist.
I live this. The more stressed I am the more I feel caught in the vortex of it without relief. Less stress, less aware of the stuff you are describing. When maxed on stress - it is ALL I can see, feel, be.
-
Hi GS...
I so feel for you and what you've been going through - your dad & all that PLUS where you are with the inner work. It's just SOOO much all at one time. But you're really handling it pretty well, I want you to know that's what I'm seeing in what you've posted about it, so far. I hope that's helping build an inner sense of confidence - I have been "hearing" it between the lines of some of your posts... but I do know when life is crazy-busy sometimes we ourselves, don't take notice of those kinds of changes in ourselves. S'OK too! There's only so much "us" to go around, isn't there? Only so much time...
You & I have from time to time "paralleled" or overlapped on the same topic; the same points of work... and been able to help push each other along. I have so benefited from your way of describing what you're dealing with; how you understand it and I hope I've helped you too. I almost actually started to just post on your dismissiveness thread... to join both our points of view on this... but I sensed that it might only have muddled or confused the clarity of what you were saying - so I brought my "stuff" over here. And actually, this thread derived from a conversation over on Lighter's thread - and something I tripped on over there that I'd been avoiding looking at in 3-D... anyway, I felt like I'd be in your way and that this was a big topic for you. I wanted you to have your space and soapbox, to hear what you have to say... and we could go back to comparing notes, later! :D
One thing I struggle with - and that hubs has been working with me to get through (hence, his involvement in "styling" my communications sometimes) is that those old relationships... the old FOO stuff... is so subtly interwoven internally... that I often don't notice that I'm expressing myself always from a negative angle; hell - I even can SOUND like my mother; freaks my girls out! (They've been given explicit permission to always point out to me when I do that.) When that negative lens and soundtrack was operating a lot more of the time than now... I really didn't notice how I sounded - verbally or in print. Well - my excuse for that is simply that this is how everything was expressed in my FOO. Positive expressions could even be dangerous emotionally - in that one would be humiliated or shamed for being so "stupid". Put downs... for seeing blue sky and sunshine... and drinking it in and revelling in it.
SIGH. So of course I learned to put myself down for anything hopeful or positive... and in an attempt to be taken more "seriously" - heard - I learned to communicate always from that more negative or cold, hard rational place... once I started really hearing "Twiggy"... and her emotions (the old inner child work) I started to see beyond the Mr. Spock mask... and since negative was so familiar, I was able to dive into the loss, grief, and pain... and on the other side found the carefully hidden away positive, optimistic, happy-silly part of me. I started to work on expressing myself in a more balanced way - not avoiding the negative things in my expression, but adding more & more positives. And I felt completely uncomfortable, unsure of myself and self-conscious doing so. I had given hubs the permission to help me learn how to do this... and over time, as my confidence grew and it didn't feel so unfamiliar... I needed him to help me with this, less & less.
I guess it wasn't until just recently that I noticed - hey, I can do this all by myself and don't need an editor. It's unfortunate that I expressed it via resentment for his voluntary assistance - I've already apologized - neither of us realized that he could "stand down" from that role... but now that he has, the constant ouch of that splinter in our communication with each other seems to be going away, too. And I feel more heard - like he's able to sense my emotions in/through what I'm saying better than before - too. I'm keeping my fingers crossed - waiting to see how long this lasts! ;)
--------------------------------
Guest: I too have a small inner circle of people... but that's been an involuntary choice. For so long, I felt so uncomfortable in large groups of people... so overwhelmed from a sensory perspective... that I would just shrink in, and smaller, until eventually I'd have to flee and get some air. Now, I have boundaries that help me hold my own in those situations... I realize that I was trying so hard to control - or if not control, "know" everything that was going on around me... to feel safe and relaxed. Going to Walmart used to be like going into battle for me... and now hear I am dining with, swilling beers with - doctors, lawyers, businessmen, bankers and the southern debutante crowd and of course, part of me felt anticipation of another kind of battle... a rowdy art school grad, who can hold her own in biker bars, and has broken up her share of bar fights? In that setting?
Well, that description of me is only a partial one. It's not a fair comparison... because of all the OTHER things I've done and been successfully... that put me on a more peer footing with these folk (who are NOT their jobs or their bank balance... they are people with stories, too; sometimes like mine - but always interesting). It was just the old "mom in my head" tapes running again about "those people"....
I'd like to add to or at least keep the current members of my inner circle... but where I need to work the most, is in populating the circles that are a little further out. People that may never ever hear about Twiggy... but that might be interested in just shopping or having lunch or kayaking together. Making connections of friends of friends... finding things to do with people who are NOT my hubs! (and finding him a fishing or golfing buddy...). And to do that - I've got to be able to stop the instant excuse that springs to my lips every single time I'm invited to do anything... "I'm not sure I have time"... sigh. That's just a rationalization; an excuse for the reality that I'm a little in awe and a little scared and little self-conscious - and even a little afraid that I won't like x person... and what do I do then??? hahahahahaa! Like they're gonna be as awful as the bioNic mom...
-
that I often don't notice that I'm expressing myself always from a negative angle;
I so clearly know what you mean. I am very grateful that your husband is participating with you in sorting it out. That must be quite a gift. I find myself doing that as well but unable to get that perspective from the outside. I do find that with certain people I am able to confirm my perceptions. Right now I have the great gift of having one of the few people whose perspective I trust working as a sitter with my father. The other day at the hospital I thought a nurse was being rude and difficult, but I knew that I was frustrated and irritated and that my perspective might be out of kilter so I asked Lo and she confirmed my perception. It was such an insignificant issue but the experience was manna from heaven.
{didn't read past this part of your post - got to get to hospital - so, so thankful for your presence here. I learn so much from your work and you are one from whom I gain insight and perspective. How odd that it can happen in these parallel universes; that it does not necessitate shared space, time or even experience. How very odd. But great thanksgiving from this corner of the world.}
-
hahahahahahahaha! I know, Guest, I know...
and even though I still agree with you about the difference in those kinds of connections (always preferring the serious ones) I'm getting the idea that I might just be missing some plain ole' fun by not indulging in the "superficial" connections, more than I have in the past. I have a LOT to get past that lives in my head, before I'll get to that point, probably.
Hidden well below my intellectual, pondering brain... the one who wants to be "taken seriously"... and who thinks her importance in this life can only be granted by others who do take her seriously...
... is the girl who wants to try to FINALLY figure out how to apply eye shadow on her hooded eyelids... (even tho by now, at this age, who the hell cares???)
... the same girl who wants to flash her pretty painted nails under her mom's nose and say HA! see? I can grow my nails long and keep them nice... so sorry 'bout yours...
... the same girl who will try on any style of clothing because "it's pretty"... only to laugh out loud at the reflection in the mirror that's more "oompa-loompa" than sophistocated... and then run out & show the salespeople how silly it looks!
There's a type of fatigue that sets in... always being serious, always doing the "right" thing - and agonizing for months over what the "right thing" is... always taking each day as if it really matters how I spend each hour, minute... if I should exercise or eat less to lose weight... or if I should reach out to the family member who confided her marriage is on the rocks and hasn't told anyone else yet... or should I write my congressman and weigh in on an important decision... or what kind of retirement plan I should establish for our company.
And the funny thing is - your two descriptions of people? I'm seeing both sides in the same people. Or at least, I'm sensing it's there... in a few cases, I know for a fact. Yes, men shop & "do lunch" - though it's usually more at a sports bar or on a golf course; my hubby is absolutely tireless as a shopper (and one of the worst gossips I know), and I'm the one begging to "go home now". I only have a limited attention span for shopping; after awhile it all looks the same to me.... I don't need it, therefore I don't want it. MOST of the time.
And the thing is - I've denied myself or been denied this kind of silly, non-important stuff in my life. For all the usual reasons... and who knows? Maybe it is fun... I can't really say until I try it.
Yes, life is short - so why not enjoy some of it? Somehow, I can see St. Peter saying - what? you wasted all your time trying to solve the problems of life & politics & the world??? And you thought I had a prize for you, because of that??? Here - have a lollipop and go play.... you're a silly thing.... and he'll pat me on the head and send me to the swings.
Balance, is what I think I'm looking for - not all one or the other.
-
Brings me joy to think of you designing, CB...
I am absolutely positive your creativity is not "gone" when you can't attend to it.
It's banked, glowing, ready for the breath that will help it flame again, when you are able to catch some air...
Just be kind to yourself. Just know that while you are plodding through this tough patch -- you know that absolutely everything changes.
This will too. And colors and flavors and joy and design will all still call you.
with love,
Hops
-
Figured out the conundrum of the sibs... and hubs... and feeling "shut down" by him. It's really hubs' issue... not a real sensitivity of the sibs; it's just a convenient way for him to deflect responsibility for his own feelings. I'll figure out a way to move forward with him... it'll probably tax my patience, but it can be done. His eyes don't very often flash in anger - especially at me - so I know he's feeling some boundary violation... related to letting go the very concrete reminders of home, mom, his own past. It would help if I could get him to open up about his feelings, specifically... but he's keeping that pretty private right now. Sometimes, it's just a matter of timing - he has helped me quite a bit without getting in my way or monitoring each and every move and how I'm executing it. I don't think he can predict exactly what will be "touchy" until we get there, either. Guess I'm gonna have to add more communication techniques to my "repertoire"... and maybe get creative about keeping him involved in the process; he agrees on the outcome we're working toward... it's just the process he's having trouble with... and I'm the bad guy for just going ahead and getting it done. There's a lot of symbolism - and emotional reality - involved in the process. For both of us. For me, I'm continuing to "tend to" MIL... she knew that this work would fall mostly to me. For hubs, he packed most of the stuff to bring here, for her... that we're now packing to donate, if no one claims it. Less than a year ago. I can see why he's touchy...
Guest - I'm one of those people who don't know how to have fun. I lost the knack for this somewhere along the way of being too serious - and wanting to be taken seriously. Art (even after getting two degrees and actually selling work)... became so "not fun" for me, precisely because my "policeman" isn't telling me I have to go have fun... but because he's criticizing, demeaning, and putting me down and upping the bar on the definition of success and even fun... I used to be killer at backgammon; baseball; volleyball and cards... I haven't played in almost 30 years. MIL did persuade me to play cards with her... and I noticed how much I looked forward to this (I sold my policeman the idea that I was just playing to keep her engaged... right? It wasn't 'coz I liked this... nooooo)... even though I didn't win. Both MIL & hubs gave me grief over the way I played my cards... because statistically I was insuring I wouldn't win... and when I did, I kinda had the last laugh. (I didn't win very much, tho).
Oh, sure... my study of neuroscience gets added to the serious kind of fun column. My reading to keep up with current events. My "by the seat of my pants" self-education in running a business, financial stuff and legal stuff. Yeah - I can do that kind of fun. But something that simply "feels good" - like being with people, relaxed and enjoying myself? simple PLAY? Mr. Cop jumps up and says no, no, no... what do you think you're doing? This isn't going to be pretty; you're not like them.... they won't like you... and ... and... and...
Hubs has been trying to get me to "play" for 10 years. My T tried to get me to play. I "played" a bit with tai chi and push hands... but mostly I turned it into another serious study. My dog tries to get me to play... and sometimes I oblige him; it's just "another thing I gotta do... play with the dog".
Truly. I think the whole idea of FUN has been ruined by having FUN defined by the RULES. There was acceptable fun... you know - what Momster thought was fun. And too many things that were unacceptable.... one didn't even DARE think of engaging in those for fear of drawing the Momster's attention - which was always stop that, don't do that, how could you do this to me???? Simple innocent enjoyable fun simply didn't exist - and where it appeared to exist, was equated with being dangerous.
SIGH. Yes, Guest... when it comes to girly things and my mom; yes there's still some vindictiveness. She dressed me like a boy from the time I walked... taught me all kinds of guy-stuff... and that it was "normal" to not have girl friends (because - she said - they'd never like and would always be jealous of me) and to compete with boys and be a tom-boy just like her... and when I asked for a specific dress one time, it caused a huge argument between my mom & dad... because she said I didn't need a dress. I absorbed all the "girly" stuff I could from the neighbor who mothered me... and guess who was jealous about that relationship??? Ruth couldn't understand how I could be so serious at 10, 11... that I'd never played this game or that... had never had a birthday party... never been taught any of the stuff that a girl that age needed to know as she matured. Thanks to Ruth, I did know. Thanks to Ruth, I made friends at school - girls and boys - and learned to laugh.
And Ruth nurtured my creativity... she saw it was an outlet for expression that I might be "permitted"... something that might not threaten the momster; well - she was wrong - but it was inconceivable to her that someone could be like that. The same kind of innocent disbelief my MIL had about "people like that".
What Hops said about creativity being banked - it's true - and in my case, it's relevant here to mention that it might also come with compounded "interest". It's not just saved for the next opportunity... it's growing. And just like unexpressed anger - unexpressed creativity is starting to leak out, run over the edge, splash out here and there... and it's manifesting as "FUN"... in all these girly ways... and I'm think I can finally fulfill one of my promises to myself - made when I burnt the last canvas I'd painted... to be able to change my palette of colors from the deep violet, blue and crimson shades... to something infinitely brighter. And I've found a source for custom-cut foam, that I can cover for banquette cushions in my kitchen... and this year I'm planting canna lillies for more color in the landscaping... and I'm growing my hair out again - but this time, I'm still keeping it styled; the new guy I'm going to is a wizard with hair... and he's fun to talk to, too...
and.....
I wonder how far I can drop-kick that policeman on my shoulder?
-
almost forgot... the policeman always, always puts conditions on fun.... you can have fun WHEN or IF... and then sets the bar so impossibly high - or adds in something that's never completely done (like cleaning the whole house so it's TV show perfect)...
this kind of "conditional thinking" is right up there with rationalizations (excuses)... for being completely un-useful and old programming code. And I know where it comes from - the old external "controls"... and the promise of a trade... IF you do x, y, & z... then I'll love you - hear you - see that you're not me.... sigh.
And one new thing - that goes under the attachment issue - is attunement. It's connected to the communication issues... I'm pretty sure.
-
So..... attunement:
in those first bonding days... when a mom soothes an infant with caresses, food, eye contact and holding and warmth... movement, like rocking... and the little eyes start to close, and muscles relax... safe...
later - when a mom knows whether "that cry" means hungry, wet, cold, or scared - or angry...
later still - when two people instantaneously have the same idea at the same time; being on the same wavelength; empathy... irrepressible giggles...
... maybe even the "recognition" feeling I had, reading CB's reply... that "WOW"... it was absolutely right; dead on... she "knew" what I was trying to describe and could say it... while I was still grasping for the words that "fit"...
So, maybe... attunement is the result; what is produced in the Mirroring/Marking interaction... of that primary attachment. That sense of connection, understanding, being "together" in the connection and understanding of each other.... the essence of being "heard"... the "thou" of "I and Thou".
In push-hands practice, in tai chi... it's called "listening energy". With practice, it's possible to "know" - i.e, predict - when and where one's partner will make an offensive move. There are physical cues... tension in that muscle, a look in the eyes... but the other cues aren't physical. The usual explanation is that it's possible to sense the chi building energy prior to making the move... but I have experienced this "knowing" before even the idea to make the move enters the awareness of partner. I don't know what that is.... but it seems a lot like attunement.
[aside: push hands practice is wonderful as a way to understand the intricacies of boundaries... and to develop non-aggressive assertiveness]
It has occurred to me, that a lot of the difficulties I've noted in this topic could be related to an "awakening" awareness that I'm craving - have a need for - attunement. Because of my programming to "protect the sick one at the center" - even from my own needs... because of the policeman on my shoulder enforcing [read: controlling] that kind of one-way connectedness... in those ways, I have learned NOT to seek out, ask for, attunement. I "understand" attunement to always be a situation where I must adjust & translate - learn the other's language of attunement - change, censor, edit, "correct" myself - to connect with someone else. Where I am the one mirroring... marking... creating "attunement" for someone else.
And the timing of this awakening makes sense... because MIL is no longer here; she did this for me "enough"... even though I wasn't "asking" (I didn't know I needed...). So where do I go "seeking".... right back here... uh-huh. You guys all certainly "get it".
It makes sense that a lot of my discomfort circles around hubs... and his piles of magazines and paper... early on in the relationship, he flat out stated that all he wanted was to feel "comfortable" in a relationship... and it's plain as day, that he feels comfortable with all his "stuff" strewn every which way... where he left it. And my failure so far... to get him to understand how uncomfortable this causes me to feel... is because I feel like I'm living with my mother (the ultimate packrat hoarder of junk)... who didn't ever give a rat's how I felt - as long as she was made comfortable. Translated: attune to me... I don't have to attune to you.
I've let him get away with that.
"Play" - in all it's forms - requires as a prerequisite... MUTUAL attunement.
More later - I had a dream about the policeman, too. This is only now beginning to settle around me.
-
It's OK, Guest! Of course we've talked about this... of course I've told him this is how I feel... for 10 years. (He & I don't try to do much "mind-reading"...) We even talked about it yesterday, right after I posted. His "stuff" was the topic of our very first argument.
He even said, I'll deal with some of my piles yesterday. Did he? uh-uh... does he even realize it yet? that would also be no... because I haven't brought it up again. I am absolutely bored and tired of playing this game... and I am close to the point, where I'm not even going to worry about making him angry... I'm going to do what needs to be done and let him know why. Again.
But really - this is only a repetition; a now-manifestation - of "old stuff". Stuff I'm trying to work through... via the opportunities of current events and situations. So I tend to bounce back & forth... from as objective & philosophical a level as I can attain... to connecting present with past... to seeing the pattern of past in present... and finding out where the "switch" is... to change it.
Hubs knows all of this. I don't think he wants to make our relationship all about his "stuff"... but he has and it's time for him to hear that... I know how I've cooperated... made it possible...
... but just like any "game"... it's hard to "play" if you don't say what you WANT, instead. And I still need to do that.
This thread isn't supposed to be about hubs and this one thing that drives me mad... but it's a very apt symbol... something concrete in "real life" that goes right to the heart of where I'm trying to "work"... even though y'all may not be able to see that yet, with all my carping on hubs (we will get to a new compromise)... I don't mean to confuse you...
-
The struggle with hubs over his "stuff" is a symptom. My feelings about it in the present...
... come from trying to resolve, sort out, get past, let go... feelings from the past. From that other relationship - with bioNicMom. I'm not sure that it's possible - in this case - to resolve the old stuff... through finding a solution to the present discomfort.
For one thing - hubs is NOT my mom. I don't think he could stand being in the same room with her - and he's only met her once. My relationship with him isn't like that either - EXCEPT for the bits of me that are replaying old crap... trying to shed old crap. That said; clear and direct communication about this, isn't getting me any closer to the result I want. But what I haven't said (CB's point) is WHY I want it... I've tried to say this... but it's incoherent still. I don't really know why it's such a big friggin deal for me, in other words. The connections... and yes, attunement is a big huge part of this... are beginning to come up now.
It's not sufficient to simply say... the piles of clutter make me anxious; make me feel suffocated; appear to accuse me with their presence of being lazy - and the neglected to-do list... while I selfishly attempt to engage with people and feel some connection - mutual caring, play, attunement. It's not sufficient for ME, as an answer. It's just STUFF, right? So get a shovel... and when I was tuned into Twiggy's story... as it poured out and I "further processed" it... the house stuff simply didn't register for me; I didn't care about cleaning until the dog hair changed the color of the carpet, you know?
My OCD issue with the STUFF right now... is that it's another symbol for something emotional, again. Like smoking, for those who remember that line of thought... the rationalizations, the reactions, the power struggle even... self-soothing; self-validation; and yes, attunement... I tell hubs - and remind myself - there are much worse things than his stuff and a cluttered house.
Sometimes, things just fall out of my mouth - my brain doesn't think it first, and I don't intend to "say" such & such... and yesterday, talking with hubs about the stuff-piles - I said "Can't I just make things pretty?" "Have a pretty house?" Sounds really superficial seeing it in words on the screen... but it's not. The Penn Dutch side of me has fun, enjoys "making pretty". It's play for me. I set up still-lifes all through the house - and rearrange them - until I find a grouping or placement that's "just right". Drives hubs crazy - because I "move" things all the time and he can't find what he needs. Underlying all that is simply: I WANT... and wanting what I want, to matter enough to him. Attunement. Come to Amber's world... play with me. I'm tired of always adjusting to you... going to your world.
Along with that - up came some Twiggy-type memories this morning. My mom insisted - forced - policed how clean and neat my room was. Later, that expanded to the rest of the house (cinderella, here I am)... Barbie doll clothes couldn't just be shoved into the case... oh no! That's why she bought me the hangers - put all those little, teeny tiny things on the hangers and keep them nice. And yes - if I didn't - the shaming and punishment rained down... and I was a horrible child who didn't appreciate anything that I was given or was made for me... years later - I got immense satisfaction from giving away all those barbie clothes (yes, mother kept them and then paid to ship them to me when I was in my 40s and my kids were grown!! AFTER they would've enjoyed playing with them...). I gave them to a co-workers' little girl who lost all her toys in a house fire. They were toxic for me.
I can't quite find the connection between her draconian training of me to be the ultimate housekeeper - and her painfully obvious packrat, hoarding issues that she developed as time went on. Maybe it's simply one aspect of shifting responsibility... or the parentification role-reversal... and I'm not sure it's relevant. Maybe it is, too. Another memory surfaced - it's just a snippet - of us during that time when the "policeman on my shoulder" showed up the first time - and she was actively gaslighting me, kept me at home and didn't allow me to go to school, and indulged herself in 24/7 introjective projection.
Money was very scarce after my dad finally escaped the madness. Instead of going to the regular grocery store where prices were lower - mother's agoraphobia was running high - we were in one of the little mom & pop convenience type stores buying milk, bread, bologna. I can remember the lady owner asking mother what was wrong with her "little boy" (AGAIN she was insisting I dress like a boy; I wasn't "careful" enough to wear my dresses; I had to "save" those for social events we never had)... because I stood there with tears just streaming down my face - not blubbering, no - I knew better than to make a sound... and of course, I got shamed publicly for this, too. And verbally attacked later - for trying to make her look bad.... SIGH........
I cried a LOT like that for months.
-------------------------------
Hell is living with a parent who's mentally ill. Nothing quite approaches that for it's awfulness, it's confusion, the shame and humiliation. As if it's all my fault she was/is like this.... I heard that it WAS my fault enough times, even when I so needed some kind of normal emotional support - and my poor kid's brain just wanted all the agony to cease and to feel safe again - when I just wanted that connection I could see in the lady-store owner - concern, caring, kindness... i.e., attunement and soothing; protection and safety.
When all I wanted to be allowed to say - was - please rescue me from my mother! without shame.
I saw my dad for a few minutes before he left - after all the dreadful things I'd suffered through that day - and I begged him to take me with him. What did he tell me? You'll be better off with your mom. I really didn't understand what I did that was so bad that I deserved that fate... and at 12, one is positively helpless to anything constructive about it. Raped, shot at, then abandoned to life with my mother... like a life sentence... for WHAT? What did I do???
I couldn't tell ya. I don't know what I did to deserve parents like this... I kept the secrets, kept my "big mouth shut", got very creative with ways to cover up, whitewash, spin the reality of my FOO... even let my mother brainwash me about who I was... who my dad was... and did that sacrifice EVER get me the simple recognition of me - for who I really was; what I really felt; or the impossible to grant thing that I wanted? Just to have a normal family that I didn't have feel ashamed of?
Nope.
The force of that reality slamming into a 12 yr old's brain and heart was like being hit with a rocket. I might be able to pretend to other people... and even try lying to myself - denial - but there was simply no escaping the reality. The absolute and total LOSS.
And I guess I'm reminded of that now... still processing the loss of MIL; still trying to adjust to - accommodate - hubs' and his sibs' feelings of loss... while minimizing my own. There were no grand gestures from MIL - that proclaimed "I'm listening and I care"... and I never ever dumped it all out on her... I got the sense that I didn't have to. She saw pain and shame and knew exactly how to alleviate it. 'Course, this is a woman who lost the love of her life in her 40s - with a handful of a teenager (hubs) and two smaller children to raise... and she was more than capable of the challenge. And always, what she did and said came from a place of unconditional love... that was her reality and it was more than enough to share with anyone - even me.
This probably STILL isn't real coherent or brilliant or whatever - but this kind of babbling is how I process things... burrow right down into where that "burr under my saddle" is irritating me.... after HOURS of dancing of around it.... complaining about the burr under my saddle... this is still a recently "learned skill" for me and doesn't come all that naturally.
-
CB:
hubs is a people pleaser... hardly the thoughtless ogre I've made him sound. The magazines and papers that make up his "piles" are molehills - not mountains. I've never picked up a dirty sock - ever! He doesn't leave cups sitting around. I'm making a really huge deal out this (he is so good in so many other ways - can't I just overlook this one thing??) - because I wasn't respecting my own right to feel loss... and that circuits around underground... just below the skin... and then pops up in some triggered fashion like this.
It is odd that it is this one particular issue that "sticks" for me. It is odd also... that after all this time we haven't found a way to resolve it. I still need to work through the connection - figure out my role in all of this (I'm convinced I'm the partner in this co-dependent two-step) and then do something different. It's probably something really, really simple and I'm looking at all this complicated stuff - and missing it. As usual! LOL...
We've tried the separate space idea... doesn't work because of his need to share, he "gets lonely" if I'm off working alone and will come find me, and of course he has to print out paper of his latest fun find - or stuff he thinks I will like. Next thing I know... a pile is started! He's like a charming 6 yr old - I just can't kick him back across the boundary every single time. And I can't train him either... I almost don't even have to say a word - he sees me looking at a pile... and he starts to defend himself!
He promises that he'll go through the stacks... recycle stuff he doesn't need to keep (and that will go in a file cabinet - years now, he's been planning that)... and then OH LOOK - a heron! Did I tell about what I was looking at online this morning? Are we going out today? Wanna go to home depot with me? Wanna ride somewhere & get lunch? OH - I'm SORRY - I meant to do that today, didn't I? I was gonna empty the dishwasher - but you should'a heard Joe on Squawk Box this morning!
I admit - there are days when I'm like that too.
But when he asks me to do something - it's done before he remembers what he asked me and I don't just "forget"... or let my stuff spill over into his space... right now, his clean laundry will prevent him from getting into bed, until he puts it away. The reason I do things "right now" - is because I've learned to cope with my own distractable nature this way. Maybe I'm trying to teach him how to cope with it... beyond his perception of the necessity to "fix" it...
wouldn't surprise me.
-
I went back and read the first post on this thread again... I'm making myself dizzy with all the dancing around I'm doing... ignoring the elephant in the room ... and oh look! there's a fox on the dock! sigh.
so... I was feeling like I couldn't invite people into "Amber's world"...
and that I was speaking in tongues when I talked, because I wasn't feeling "heard"...
and you all are giving me all kinds of really useful insights, advice... and I feel like I'm rejecting a lot of it; denying what is probably obvious to you... and I'm what? too stubborn to look at it? too embarrassed to look at it?
So here's my "question of the day" to look at, for me (y'all got better things to do)... can I define "Amber's World"? What am I talking about? If it's a question of attunement... why do I automatically - without question; without fail - immediately assume the role of "the adult in the room"... and is that REALLY what I want? (calling Pavlov again....) Am I making attempts to attune to others... and that gets in the way? or am I still that "closed off" and too scared to let anyone in... still...because I haven't answered the first question:
Define Amber's World. This might take awhile...
Thanks everyone.
-
"why do I automatically - without question; without fail - immediately assume the role of "the adult in the room"... and is that REALLY what I want? (calling Pavlov again....) Am I making attempts to attune to others... and that gets in the way? or am I still that "closed off" and too scared to let anyone in..."
Amber,
This is what I'm hearing you say: you feel you're overly attuned to others, but not attuned enough to yourself & that you automatically assume the adult role.
IMO, one of the best ways to start examining this is to say: In my FOO, I had to assume the role of the adult because it felt like there were no other adults, so I felt forced, compelled to take that role. And, because as a child, I was conditioned (pavlov) to automatically assume the Adult role, I continue to automatically assume this role, even tho, at times, I do not want to do so. As a child, I automatically assumed the Adult role as a means of protecting myself & surviving, but, now, I am an adult & so automatically assuming the Adult role now no longer serves my needs & it may indeed inhibit me from fulfilling my needs. How can I break my conditioning?
And, do I see that sometimes, I auto assume the Adult role as a means for control: things feel chaotic, someone's gotta take charge so that there's some order. When no one steps in to take charge, I assume the adult role in order to fill that void.
Next: giving up some control & learning to tolerate icky, uncomfortable feelings: what if I refuse to automatically assume the adult role? Can I condition myself to feel it's OK if things are chaotic sometimes? If I decide to not always, automatically to attune to other people, can I condition myself to feel OK about it? Can I condition myself to sit & feel icky feelings which may come if I refuse to auto attune myself to others?
Also: I'm tired of automatically assuming the Adult role because when I do so, I often do not get my needs met. I'm not doing enough things that please me & instead am often doing things that please others. I'm putting the needs of other over my needs. Do I feel self-assured enough to shed some of my Adult role? How can I balance pleasing myself & pleasing others?
John Bradshaw discusses the various roles kids take on in a FOO; he too took on the Adult role, as he was the 'little Man' of this FOO, his dad was absent & his mom was overwhelmed & helpless. Bradshaw discusses implications of having the role of Adult foisted upon one as a kid & how it effects one later in life.
Amber, is this helpful or am I on the wrong track?
-
Yes, Ann - very helpful!
I know about those "icky feelings" - which ones you're talking about. For me - any deviation from the adult role in any situation... brings up those icky feelings. And somehow, I think this is the flip-side of the boundary issue I have - where I feel safest withdrawn and as small & unobtrusive & un-needy as I can be. Coming at the same thing from another direction...
Life and my own choices have been challenging that status quo... I'm asking "why not?" and the inner self is predicting doom, disaster, scandal....and being targeted. I don't have permission (from myself) to be anything other than the "responsible adult".
It's really odd - how with this kind of personal history - one frames so many things on old references... old contexts... and can turn even the nicest things into icky ones...
it IS possible to see hubs' stacks of magazines - and all our interactions about them - as a game - therefore PLAY...
instead of some sort of boundary issue; control issue...
-
I really sympathize, PR...
I think order and beauty are deep cravings, and you are an artist. It's not just 'neurosis' that makes it such a fixation for you, it's your soul stuff.
Then again, so is loving him.
My daughter's father was such an incredible packrat, and I wanted so much to express my sense of beauty and delight in decor, etc. -- it was a huge incompatibility.
It was, finally, okay. Because we each had our "Room of Our Own" and got to some peaceful agreement about common areas. Never perfection, but cozy and okay.
Outside, there were woods and mountains and a garden and open fields. So those "uncontrolled, undecorated" places helped me soothe myself. Nature's decor trumped mine, any day.
I mean, the man literally ran out of room on the WALLS for his maps and posters and literally covered the CEILING of his study with papers. And never, ever threw out a thing, practically.
Drove me nuts. But the Rooms of Our Own etc. really helped.
I get it.
love,
Hops
-
"Life and my own choices have been challenging that status quo... I'm asking "why not?" and the inner self is predicting doom, disaster, scandal....and being targeted. I don't have permission (from myself) to be anything other than the "responsible adult"."
Amber,
I hear you girl: the negative voices in our head that inhibits us. I bet you, like me, were raised in a sea of negativity. But, we gotta banish the negative voices or at least stop listening to them. You have the power to give yourself permission to not be the "responsible adult". I know it's hard to chnage our brains, but you are the PhoenixRising! Rising from the ashes into a new person.
Why not experiment? Next time you feel the adult role coming on, just say no, don't play the role & see what happens. I've been not assuming that adult role for a while, giving up control of outcomes and it's tilted my prism, making me feel more autonomous, making me see I have choices. And it's interesting to see how others react because when I often assumed the adult, the other person often assumed the child role. Thus, by often assuming the adult role, the other person often assumed the child role, so I was indirectly forcing the other to act childish: action & reaction.
-
The struggle with hubs over his "stuff" is a symptom. My feelings about it in the present...
You are so excellent about separating these two things. That is one of your remarkable strengths.
What did you do to deserve parents like you got, Amber? You didnt do anything.
And yet CB, the price we pay for the results of having had parents like that are extreme and never ending. We pay a price in our society because we were not formed by loving parents. And that one gets me as much or more than not having loving parents or siblings.
-
What it all comes down to, in the end (after so much talking)... is that most of the time...
FEELING GOOD ALWAYS FEELS BAD.
And if it doesn't, I am programmed to look for ways to make my experience conform to this "RULE". Thank you scary malevolent attachment style...
------------------------------------------------------------
I have a decorating theme for the house; I'm calling it post-modern pirate - in other words, I'm avoiding the literal pirate references yet still trying to evoke "swashbuckling"... "fun"... "devil may care - anything goes"... and comfortable, put your feet up, sink into the couch and fall asleep... kind of space with a caribbean colonial feel. I am collecting artsy and stuffed parrots that appear in odd places around the house... away from the nibbly old, scurvy dog who eats all his stuffed toys. This kind of decorating is always a work in progress... it really does have to be "collected" over time - there is just no way to source everything all at once and the bill would make hubby and I slink back into hermit-ville again - feel "bad" in other words about feeling good!
My idea for a solution, to make recycling of papers, magazines, etc stacks of "stuff" really easy - was to find a cabinet with big enough shelf space to hold my recycling paper bags - out of sight behind doors yet within steps of where we sort the mail. Hubs is a indefatiguable (sp?) "hunter-gatherer"... the epitome of a shopper - he sees things that I've completely missed because of sensory overload and then points them out. We hit the biggest of our local furniture stores yesterday... and he found a painted cabinet (in my fav color) that will work... and it even has two drawers... so that he can have one (not 2) "piles" of stuff that he picks up/puts down going in & out... and the pile will be out of sight in the drawer... so that a.) I won't be tempted to move it and b.) he'll know where to look when he can't remember where he put it... and that was HIS idea; brilliant huh? The cabinet will get delivered Monday and goes right in the hall that we use to go in/out of the house... or up/downstairs.
Second stop was another store that we like for fun decorative things... and most of them are functional decorative things, so the "policeman" is appeased... but the policeman got kicked to kingdom-come as soon as I saw a pair of gorgeous mermaid prints... and then, I saw the large one in a different color palette... and two small geometric pieces that will work in a couple different places... the mermaids are like jewelry... very reminiscent of Klimt; and I connected immediately with them, as they're very, very similar to an etching I did for the handmade book of Twiggy's journey (unconsciously created, before I knew what the story was...).
The past hour, hubs & I have scouted places to hang the art... and have discussed what we might do downstairs*... and he's actively thinking about organizing and creating useful work spaces for himself in the garages. This is the "fun" part of "Amber's World"... where I'm not "playing" by myself - I don't want or need "control" - where his ideas and needs have equal weight (he's pretty creative all by himself)... and we fuel each other's energy and ideas. He hasn't been "playing" because he's confusing my asking with a "control-demand"... and I wasn't making myself real clear. (and after all this babbling to get to here... it's obvious I had no clue what I was trying to say, either)
*SIL has come back with a looong list of what she'd like of her mom's stuff; with 4 boys she can use more furniture... but she won't be able to come pick it up for awhile. Hubs has already strategized a solution that is similar but better, than what I was thinking, for storing it till then - but still making space for us to start working down there - making it ours.
------------------------------------------------------
So, yesterday after our hunting-gathering session, we came home to play a videogame we're obsessed with. We're shooting chickens and beating the computer... and while I'm working on becoming a better shot and hubs is racking up big scores... the tears are just running down my face and I'm letting them. That's when I realized what this whole thread is about... the conundrum of "feels good feels bad" - or hurts - or evokes grief - for me. All that time LOST due to the RULE of "if it feels good it must be bad - or scary - or a boundary intrusion or - - - -"
And it's this odd association that I have to reprogram. Now that I know what it is... I can work on it. I've pretty well conquered the guilt reflex I used to have, buying something for myself... but only just recently. But just like I could tell the policeman to go hell, I wanted the mermaids yesterday... I ALSO need to do this in my relationships; starting with Hubs. So that I can enjoy "feeling good"... without having to feel bad at the same time, too. Or making our interactions conform to the "old RULES"... that old pattern of "if you want bioNic mom's attention - it comes at a dangerously high price".
Thus, by often assuming the adult role, the other person often assumed the child role, so I was indirectly forcing the other to act childish: action & reaction.
Ann - THANK YOU! The above is EXACTLY what has been going on with hubs & me... and yet my inner Twiggy was mewling about needing to be in the child role... wanting someone to "have her back"... and I was able to find that again; one of the very essence-building blocks of his and my relationship.
Wow... it sure FEELS GOOD... to get all THAT sorted out! ;D
-
So, we developed a dance where I KNEW he wouldnt follow through, and he KNEW that I had a back up plan for when he didnt. I was hyper adult.
CB - it was Ann who pointed me in this direction. I think this is a topic that deserves a thread unto itself. Lots to explore about this, still. Even though hubs & I are at a happy medium place - now; it really doesn't take much... something as simple as not paying attention even... before we'll fall back into the same old, same old again.
The a-ha won't last until... something else happens. I don't know what. Yet.
I didn't know how to translate playing into marriage, either. When we played all the time - his preference I thought - my "policeman" drove me nuts about the looming disasters to come unless I stepped into the adult role. Well, I did that way too well because of the old programming... and went to the other extreme... sigh! And of course, then there was "no time to play"... until I decided I wanted to turn one room in the old house, into "my" space - and he got creatively engaged in the process. I'm sure it was a relief for him to have something specific and concrete to do - to help. That was when we started to "play together". It's still a new phase for us... we're definitely both still learning.
I never had a relationship where I could have carte blanche in the house as far as decorating goes. The N-ex's always dictated, or denied, or "guided".... toward their idea, of course. Hubs has been as good as his word: do whatever you want to do. It's been re-vivifying to see some of my visions - and some of his - actually work out.
-
Hey Amber,
You really are the Phoenix Rising :D
Glad it helped. This adult role vs. child role is from Dr. Eric Berne's Transactional Analysis:
http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/ta.htm
"Transactional Analysis (or TA as it is often called) is a model of people and relationships that was developed during the 1960s by Dr. Eric Berne. It is based on two notions, first that we have three parts or 'ego-states' to our 'personality, and secondly that these converse with one another in 'transactions' (hence the name).
Parent, Adult and Child
We each have internal models of parents, children and also adults, and we play these roles with one another in our relationships. We even do it with ourselves, in our internal conversations."
If this kinda rings a bell, may I suggest you read Dr. Berne's book called "Games People Play: The Basic Handbook of Transactional Analysis"? It's available at amazon & I really enjoyed it because he shows that so many interactions we have are actually "games" which we repeat over & over.
Just found this video of TA & I like the way TA is illustrated, but suggest you also check out Berne's book.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKNyFSLJy6o&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOqJ4sc9TAc&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58F2qYyAzME&feature=channel
-
LOL!!
Ann - that really takes me back... I read "Games People Play" while a sophomore in HS. I was seriously dating a "preacher's son" and the preacher was big fan of TA and he recommended it to me - the son is still one of the most flagrant and abusive Ns any of us have ever met (among that circle of HS friends). This was back in the mid-70s... at the other end of Twiggy's decade.
Obviously, I didn't understand a word of it back then. But then... I was also still being gaslighted, too. I had to adhere to the "party line" of how my FOO functioned... Just goes to show, that people can't hear or understand... until they're ready to deal with it. Pavlov made sense then... I could directly relate to his theory; but not Berne.
I'm not real sure that I'd agree with more than some specifics of that "philosophy", even now. What seems to work for me as a thesis of "how people are" and why they do things as they do (including me)... is that we are all multiple people - inner, outer - conscious and unconsious - and that we develop specific personalities for each of our roles. I have struggled with and continue to struggle with my parent role, for instance. Unconsciously, I mimic my bioNic mom... and sometimes, even when I'm trying to consciously choose to be something else - it still bubbles up and spills out. So, I'm still looking for a way to "kill the evil witch" that lives in the grooves of my brain and memory... I really don't like it (or myself) when I turn into that evil witch... just because I wasn't paying enough attention to my "Self"... my needs, wants, and feelings.
And there are yet many other ways, that I unconsciously step into the "parent" role, needlessly. And even inappropriately - like in circumstances that call for something completely different. Another way for me think about that is with boundaries... is it really my job to step across that boundary assuming the role - and power and privilege - of a parent? Fortunately, I do this a lot less than in the past... but it hasn't been completely banished or dismantled yet.
What's useful to me from TA is simply the concept of roles... and how the roles we adopt reflect aspects of our inner Selves. There are more, I think, than just parent - adult - child that one can see being played out, over & over in groups of people. Guest probably can help identify some of these, with all her people watching. I can think of some... and they function as self-defining or limiting personality "masks"... sometimes. Sometimes the "roles" and the way they're acted out are keys to decoding the inner person, too. On this point, I'd agree with Berne.
-
Ha! and I'll audition for "know it all"... even tho' many times I'm amazingly happy to find out just how WRONG I was...
how about if Harpo Marx was the "know it all"? I could be that kind...
honk-honk!
-
uh.... I guess I'm gonna have to say, No - I don't know what you mean Guest. I'm trying to "get it"... but it's not coming through my own "ground clutter", I guess you'd say.
Been there done - the outsider, alien, misfit role and let it run wild while I was in art school. There is some superficial freedom in it... but from today's perspective it wasn't at all what I was longing for, really. That character was just "pretend" and "dress up" for me (and a refuge or rationalization of why I was so "different")... but out of it, I came to understand that creativity exists - coexists - even with the Ozzie & Harriet lifestyle - the boho, misunderstood, antihero, lone wolf character isn't a prerequisite for "really good art". In some ways, I think that choice actually only perpetuated a lot of the old FOO crap... helped sustain an internal conflict longer than it was worth.
As much as I worry about how I'm perceived by others - and continue to have this tendency to keep people at arms length... I've found that I really do enjoy being with people, in various combinations - one on one is still my preferred interaction style - but I am finding my way to enjoying larger social gatherings... and relaxing about it more. If I can remind myself to stop imposing my own expectations, my own script on the "future" while I'm making preparations to host... it's way easier for me. I don't need to have expectations about who I might connect with in these encounters, either! I know enough to run the other way - discreetly - when my radar goes off or I see red flags in how someone acts - and there are plenty of other people around to engage.
Sense of humor is like a canary in a coal mine, I think. And I see it this way in one of my D's, too (she's aware of it too). When we lose our ability to laugh - at ourselves, or anything - we're taking it all too seriously and that's an obstacle to complete understanding. It's in this vein, that I really almost enjoy being "wrong"... it's OK to be wrong. I have learned a whole lot of stuff - useful things - by being wrong about it first and then questioning my premises, etc. I get what you're saying about life being too short, to be wrong about the important stuff... but I've got "issues" still, about life being long enough... and the transience of "being right" which is dependent upon time and circumstances. What was a "right" definition of me in 1969... no longer applies and may be totally 180 opposite of what exists as me today. I find that kind of thinking in a lot of places... we always want to compare now with the past - and this gets people in trouble because the variables of then and now - can often be very different.
There, I think it just dropped "out of my mouth"... that's the crux of what felt wrong and inspired this thread. Past and present... and letting "old stuff" from the past be applied in the present... as if what was once true - always is. I keep forgetting that I'm pretty comfortable in a zen experiential mode... I adapt very quickly to changing circumstances and I'm one of the kinds of people that thrive on change, variety, and a certain amount of pressure. As long as I can "touch base" with a basic status quo, that is. And if that status quo seems to be growing too solid, entrenched, monotonous... it functions as a low-level emotional restlessness, irritant, prison-like... which I experience as a "problem".
Maybe. Theories are only as good as their proofs.
-
Oh.... OK... I think I sort of get what you're saying now...
I wonder... why it is, so many are "losing it"? It seems like there is some nefarious conspiracy generating fear, suspicion & paranoia, negativity, lack of even personal security - beyond a realistic assessment of the real dangers out there. Like something's being added to the water... as we used to say. A mass hysteria kind of phenomenon. That doesn't use statistics or understand probability...
For all the talk of change, human nature remains the same... bureaucracies are still first & foremost concerned with their own survival (it's inherent in the nature of it's existence) - who doesn't know that?... corporations need to make a profit or they're not in business very long - why is that some shocking scandal?? or evil unto mankind??... people can be amazingly awful to each other... and amazingly kind, too.
Plus ca change, plus sa meme chose...
I get excited when I think I'm seeing something "new"... initially... and most of the time, I realize later it's just a re-design of something that's been around for awhile or something I just didn't know about before. There've been a few things that didn't dim for me... that just might be "new" and "good news"... and there's usually a "why didn't people think of that before?" moment that goes with it, too. But then - I find I keep seeking out young, creative folks who are making their attempt at solving the age-old riddles of life... not to teach them anything... but to watch for things I can learn from them.
Don't tell my kids!!!! :D
Yeah, I know some things about life, politics, society still suck - life still ain't fair, either - but it's really not any worse than it's been in other decades, eras, milleniums, either. Being "realistic" doesn't always mean being more negative, than positive... I don't think it's "realistic" to not take positives into consideration. But I didn't always think this way... it just makes me feel better so I do, now. Self-soothing, I guess.
-
Sorry your neighborhood's in turmoil, Guest.
Did I understand right that you're moving?
I like the sound of places to swim, people to meet/greet...
And your common sense and perspective about being mindful that other people are going through other things, to which you're sometimes a witness...sounded really wise to me.
Hope moving is positive for you and goes smoothly,
Hops
-
Moving is a mixed blessing...
while there is ample opportunity to live, be, "different"... if you don't make that effort, all of a sudden you'll notice the new place looks just like the old one... it's some special, universal force, I think - like entropy.
Another mystery for me - is what IS that kind of effort? What does it consist of, feel like, how do I nurture it? And really - is it worth it?