Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: bearwithme on January 25, 2011, 03:07:19 AM
-
Well, here I am again. Some of you may remembered my situation: I'm the one who threw my Nmom out and literally threw her luggage onto my front lawn along with phone, purse, make-up bag, personal things, etc. These items, along with her, went out my front door via my emotional breakdown of not being able to sustain the "coping" mechanism which failed completely or was never there in the first place. Don't really know at this point.
Well, I've been NC for 9 and 1/2 months. This is a first for me. It is really bizarre. Nmom has called me to try to contact my three year old daughter. I know Nmom is hurting tremendously over this. I know Nmom is really missing the baby, her only grandchild...blah, blah, blah. As you know, I have the guilt and shame over this but have been going along with NC quite well, regardless.
But here's the kicker: I have no analogy other than this one to describe going NC. So here it goes.
Although I don't gamble in the least bit, I liken this difficult, but necessary situation of mine to like a card game in Las Vegas, or like Poker or something. My Nmom is the card dealer with all the tricks up her sleeve and I am the player and no matter WHAT hand I am dealt, it is all the same. It's like I could have a full deck, half deck, full house, royal flush, black jack, full straight, no straight, all aces, no aces, no cards or all cards, ball in my court, my turn, my say, my rules and the whole world in my hands where I walk away with all the money in the Casino and beat her at her own game. But:
It is all the same outcome. No matter what hand I play it is ALL THE SAME. It doesn't matter one bit what hand I play and I'm the foolish one for thinking I could play this game in the first place.
I feel the same. I still talk to the couch and counsel myself in the mirror. When I drive down the road on my long commute, I still find myself talking to my steering wheel. I still get sad. I still argue with the walls. I still get depressed and feel hurt. I grieve and mourn. I still justify my actions for throwing her out of my house and verbally tell this to my pillow at night. I get furiously angry at the thought of what she said to my husband and want to punch her lights out. I find myself reenacting our last conversation as I have done for 35 years. I still want no conflict in my life and want to hug her and say sorry. My heart breaks every day. I feel the same towards her. I feel no resolve. I feel no peace.
After all this hard work and all this effort to go NC. After my big blow up and after realizing that I couldn't have her in my life anymore and after finally doing something about it, it has resulted in this? The let down is immense. I'm dissappointed in it all.
However, I would not change one moment of this and I do not regret going NC whatsoever. But can you see my dilemma? It is by far the hardest thing to explain to someone who does now know so I'm hoping you can understand me somewhere in this post.
I can only say this: Thus far, I have gain perspective. Perspective that she is mentally ill. I understand a little better of who she REALLY is and therefore, who I am. I think. I have perspective about her terminal narcissism. The Holidays were tough. She sent at least $950.00 worth of Christmas presents to my three year old daughter totally overcompensating for not seeing her for 9 and 1/2 months when my brother is filing BK and my husband and I could use that money for her college or other meaningful things....selfish sounding, I know, but that's how I feel.
Things are no better or no worse. Why? I must consider the fact that I may go on through my life like this and it may subside and perhaps it never will. I must be prepared that even when she's dead, I will still argue with the sofa and scream at my steering wheel.
When I was not NC, I was just a bit more smothered in her N'ism and strangled by my anger. Now, I don't feel smothered or strangled but I feel I'm left to die from the open wounds that just won't heal quick enough and I bleed out.
Sorry for my long, extravagant rant. I have the perspective that there is no peace. True peace. The peace you get when you say sorry to someone when you have hurt them. The Peace you get when you give of yourself without the asking. The Peace you get when you don't have to worry about justifying yourself. True peace is not forgiveness. It is not understanding and it is not taking matters into your own hands and showing my Nmom who lays the rules and boundaries. True Peace with an Nmom does not exist.
Thanks for listening.
Bear.
-
Don't give up on finding the pea ce. It may come yet. Don't give up.
On your daughter. I have believed for 10 years that she really (My N mother) does love my 10 year old son. (My father let me and my son son in no uncertain terms that he does not care about either one of us. My son does not yet know what a gift that is.) I FINALLY figured out it was all an N ploy. She says all the right things - sort of but I finally say through her actions. She does not LOVE my son but she was getting some N fodder from him and perhaps your mother is doing something similar. I'll try to explain.
Oh by the way - everytime, I have had enough (or my son has had enough) of my N mother's antics and we leave not happy, she tries to "buy" our attention back. I'm thinking that your mother was doing the same with all the Christmas gifts. My mother will write me a check or purchase a large Lego for my son and then call and say she has something for lus.. What finally got through to me was yet another experience last week when I was back and forth between the hospital wherre my father was in the emergency room awaiting admitting and I asked her if my son could stay with her while I was at the hospital. When I droppped him off - before I could walk in her door, she asked with exasperation how long it would take me and when would I be picking up my son - then in a flash, I suddenly saw a larger truth - she is as incapable of loving him as she is of loving me or my nephews or my brothers or anyone. How did her question, her simply question reveal that? It would be hard to explain except thatunder the circumstances, in that it was an emergency and that she knew that I had been working for 4 days to get my father INTO the hospital (she had taken the first call about my father from authorities looking for me on Monday and this was Thursday). My son had headed upstairs. She did not need to speak to him or even be bothered. He would be upstairs doing homework and watching TV and playing uptil I picked him up and could put himself to bed if I was held up. NOTHING was required of her AT ALL. And yet she was clearly feeling put out. NOT the least bit interested in helping me OR having the pleasure of my son's company. SHE DIDN'T WANT HIM THERE. Then I knew and I suspect your mother might be doing the same thing = buying for your daughter in order to shine the light back on herself.
When my 10 year old told me that he won't really be missing my grandmother when she dies but he will miss his step-grandmother, I knew he had a better vision than I did. I bet your won daughter may lead you into the light about feeling better in the years to come.
-
I don't know.....
peace might start creeping when you've talked to the sofa,
enough.
Screamed at the steering wheel,
enough.
Cried over never getting to say you're sorry,
enough.
Grieved over the loss of the mother, you never really had,
enough.
Without reservation. Just let it go, full steam ahead.
Let it all out.
You've moved yourself beyond feeling smothered, and strangled by legitimate anger. Does this feel less terrible?
I think time, and understanding, might move you through this new lingering stink of regret and confusion.....
maybe this is what it feels like when hope dies.
Maybe finding a good psychotherapist can help you internalize and accept..... find some peace.
I'm so sorry you're living this awful loop...... I know it goes round and round.
You feel trapped in your head with the thoughts that refuse to make sense.
How about looking at it like this.......
think of all the future conversations, you won't have to have, with your daughter and husband about your mother's toxic, non sensical, crazy making behavior that will never make sense, no matter what they do either.
You're suffering.
Your child isn't.
Your husband isn't.
They won't, bc of the choice you made.
((((bear)))) I pray you find grace and closure.
Lighter
-
Bear (((((((((((())))))))))))))
It took 35 years for you to reach breaking point. Peace may come (I see it on the horizon for me). But it takes a long time.
I've been actively working on dealing with my mum for ten years and have been NC for four. She did similar things with my son as your mum has done with your daughter. I think one of the saddest things about people who suffer from NPD is that they don't love anyone in a warm, healthy way. I doubt your mum loves your daughter the way you do - unconditionally, with all your heart, however she may behave, act up, look, feel etc. What Ns love is control. And young children are easy to control - especially when you can spend a fortune on expensive gifts and make yourself look like a fairy godmother in the process :)
Do I miss my mum? No
Do I want to see my mum? No
Do I want her around my son? No
But do I want to have a mum? God, yes
Would I like to live across the road from a warm and caring lady who pops round for a cuppa, hugs me, tells me she loves me, shares her recipes with me and tells me stories about 'the old days'? You bet I would.
Would I like my son to have a warm, healthy family who love him, care for him and support him? Of course I would.
And if my mum called me and said she'd been in therapy for two years and she really wanted to work on us and would I go and meet her, would I go? I'd be round there before she put the phone down.
And I think that's what's so hard. We all want a mum, we want to be loved, cherished, cared for and all the rest of it. And NPD stops people from doing that. Like you, I find it easier to think of my mum as being ill, rather than wicked or nasty. It's almost like a contagious disease - if you're around it, it affects you. I think what you're going through now is a very healthy, normal part of the process. I find it peaks and troughs - sometimes I cope just fine, other times there's a hole in my heart so big I think I could fall inside it. As hard as it is, you know that being around your mum causes problems that you find difficult to deal with. Some people can manage to have some sort of relationship - they can keep a bit of a distance, keep their self-esteem in tact and deal with things as they come up. Maybe that will be you one day. Maybe you'll never be in touch again. But through all of it you have to protect you and your family first, and it is hard. But it does start to level out and eventually things get better for longer and longer periods and who knows? I doubt it ever goes away completely. But I think you get to a point where it is just a part of your life that you manage, and there is a kind of sense of peace with that.
Thinking of you. I know it's hard ((((())))) xxxx
-
(((((((((Bear)))))))))))))
You're grieving. It's slow.
Grief is very slow and hard when it's complicated by Nism.
But it WILL get better with time.
This pain and loss is not your future. It's what you're weathering now.
Trust the flow of time, and the wisdom of the universe.
There is space for her, for her, for all of it to flow out.
Try to be present to yourself and be extremely forgiving of yourself.
You do know she's like a rhino. Not safe with children of any age.
And grieving, you're probably grieving for her as well.
It is a tragic condition. And one day, you will feel released, just
by knowing it's as cruel as an act of nature, and no more personal.
love,
Hops
-
Bear I've nothing to add to these replies other than it will subside; if you are anything like me, it will. It won't be some dramatic moment or revelation, more a slow letting go and realising that it no longer matters. You're not losing Bear - unless it's losing the attachment of a lifetime. Let it go in its own time and one day you'll notice that it's not there. That it was just someone you used to know.
edit: I passed this over before but realised I had to say something, not to question you, Twoapenny, but to voice my own reaction which was so swift I almost missed it!
And if my mum called me and said she'd been in therapy for two years and she really wanted to work on us and would I go and meet her, would I go? I'd be round there before she put the phone down.
I'd say: "no thanks". There are only a couple places where I might want to see my mother and in one of them she isn't alive. I don't expect to see her again in any social/ordinary situation, I don't want to. Just my view there. Other views are equally valid etc etc.
-
Hi, Bear. ((((bear)))) So good to hear from you. I have not posted in a long time, but your message prompted me to.
I have been NC from Nmom and Ndad for three years now. The first year I struggled as you are doing--guilt, fear, sadness. But, then, after a year or so, I felt a bit better. The guilt was the first negative feeling to disappear. And, then, after two years, a lot better. The sadness has greatly diminished. And, now, I live. I actually live my life without Nmom's emotional tentacles wrapped around me. It took time to achieve some peace, but for me it was as if I emerged from a long dark tunnel and saw the sunshine. I blinked at first and resisted but them embraced the openness and freedom. Like Hops says, grief is slow, time helps.
You are right about the game--no matter how well you play it, you will never win. So, you are left with the following choices: continue to lose or stop playing. From my experience, only one choice brings what you seek.
Another thing I've noticed, I am learning to be proud of myself for choosing to live my life the best way for me (removing emotionally disastrous people from my life). I see positive relationships forming that were not there before which is self-affirming since I was not aware such relationships existed. My marriage is better. My parenting is better. And, my children have not missed her one bit.
(I wish I could have seen you toss her out. Like Athena emerging . . .)
Hugs,
Joy
-
Hi Guest,
I know exactly what you mean, I felt the same way for a long time. I hated her so much I just wished she was dead. But it's kind of gone now. I can't say why or how, or even if it will stay gone. But I ache for a mum and if I had the chance to get one that was at least trying to be healthy I'd take it. A year ago I wouldn't have stopped to help if I'd seen her get hit by a car. It's a funny process!
Twoapenny xx
-
Hi Twoapenny
I wouldn't say I hate her, although I have probably felt that. I accept the fact that she is - and has been - mentally disordered. The least I see of her, the better. I have my own life to live, know what I mean? I don't want or need a mother either, no aches. On the other hand, if I saw anyone get hit by a car, I'd go to help them. Couldn't help myself there but it doesn't mean I want an attachment to them. Attachment is not the same as compassion.
It sure is a funny process, no doubt about that!
-
Attachment is not the same as compassion.
Thank you, Guest!
I really appreciate pith.
Hops
-
You are right about the game--no matter how well you play it, you will never win. So, you are left with the following choices: continue to lose or stop playing. From my experience, only one choice brings what you seek.
Hi Bear, the way butterfly said this is how I finally saw my choice, too.
The bad feelings... and constant rehashing... and even the wishing for what I didn't have... all diminished and subsided after I chose to "stop playing". Not completely gone, mind you - but quieted down enough that it was finally possible to work through them to even more freedom.
I'm gonna make what might sound like a wacked-out crazy suggestion. I'm not even sure how "sane" it is - all I know is it works sometimes. That is, to look for "mother" and "mothering" somewhere else - in someone else. I have a friend from jr. high... and we mothered each other to adulthood. I am mothered by people here on the board (you all know who you are!). My tai chi teacher was a type of mother... different people, fulfilled different aspects of "mother" for me. I've been mothered by men, even. And then, I think maybe you have an older neighbor... someone who doesn't have a lot of family nearby, who's lonely... and would love company and a little help doing things she can't anymore... someone who was a "good enough" mom herself, you know? Just being friends with someone like this can fill that yearning you have.
And I've found some comfort and solace in mothering others, too. The "giving" of mothering or "being" motherly has the same healing properties as being mothered. We can learn to mother ourselves, too. To have a relationship with ourselves to fulfill those needs.
-
My gosh! What an outpouring of wisdom and experience in these posts. I have to say, they all brought me to tears.
then in a flash, I suddenly saw a larger truth - she is as incapable of loving him as she is of loving me or my nephews or my brothers or anyone
GS: your "flash" is one that I had as well. It's like an epiphany of sorts, like sudden wisdom.
Lighter, you said maybe this is what it feels like when hope dies.
This is so profound and it knocked me off me feet. I think this is what is happening to me. My hope is dying. The hope I always had-hoping I could just cope with her behavior and hope that I could handle it, and hope that I could include her in my life and in social situations, I could just "somehow" ignore her. Hope that I could "rise-above" and figure it all out on my terms. Hope that I could have a mother who loves me unconditionally.
TAP: Do I miss my mum? No
Do I want to see my mum? No
Do I want her around my son? No
But do I want to have a mum? God, yes
Amazing to me now Nmom's are all the same!! They make their children feel this? I feel exactly the same way - no different. I'm so glad that you shared this.
Hops: Grieving is so slow. Yes. N's have not a clue what they cause us to go through, yet, we have to almost die ourselves in order to live on the other side. I think I grieve because it feels good, like it comes naturally and I shouldn't shun it away. I need to embrace my grief so I can heal as you seem to have.
Guest:You're not losing Bear - unless it's losing the attachment of a lifetime.
You nailed it. I AM losing the attachment of a lifetime. My god how this made me realize just that. Plain and simple. I'm attached as any child would be to their mother. I'm 5 years old and holding onto her skirt and trying to hide from strangers. I'm 12 years old wanting my mother to hold me when I cry over stupid things. I'm 16 years old wanting my mother to be there for me and listen to my adolescent issues and drama of a life. Instead, I got a self centered rage aholic who used me for her own needs, etc.
Butterfly: you should have seen me throw her out! I have found out from my brother that she has been saying that I "beat" her and she has incurable bruising. She has told people that I battered her and she has physical scaring to prove it. I can't believe this. Although I did "manhandle" her and physically turn her body around and push her out the door, I by no means "beat" her. Amazing her distortion of the truth.
Phoenix: The bad feelings... and constant rehashing... and even the wishing for what I didn't have... all diminished and subsided after I chose to "stop playing". Not completely gone, mind you - but quieted down enough that it was finally possible to work through them to even more freedom.
This is my fate when I "stop playing" which I think I almost doing now. I'm waiting for my freedom from these feelings of grief and guilt and overall hopelessness.
My Nmom is mentally ill. She has not a clue about anything and never has. This is sad to me. All those years of wondering what was wrong with "me" and instead it was "her." She will never connect the dots. Never. She is sick. She has to be to do what she has done. I'm coming to terms with this and it has helped me get through a lot of guilt and shame.
Phoenix mentioned that I could look for others with mothering qualities. Strangely, I have done this subconsciously throughout my adult life. I have several older friends that I let "mother" me. It just happend that way without me realizing the real reason why.
You all rock!
Bear
-
Bear! :D
For anyone like me, who has just a tad of trouble with the word MOTHER, it might be an idea to replace it with nurturer or something else. I don't want anyone to MOTHER me! Anyone know about the therapist who actually adopted her older female client? For real? WTF. That's just not right you know. I don't care if it's symbolic, helping, etc it's sick. Something very not right in that relationship.
Anyway, Bear! :D
-
LOL Guest...
I actually irritated bioNic mom for years... because I started calling her "mother"... as in, for me: mother-$%(4'r.
It suited the teenaged me and helped with the idea of withdrawing or separating from that relationship. Unconscious, mostly. Symbolic, for sure, of all the disappointment, rage, grief, and.... what to call it - maybe abandonment - that I felt because to have a relationship with her, meant I had to be the mother in the relationship. The adult in the house.... and I knew I wasn't; I needed an adult... I suffered from so many emotional deprivations; I knew those emotional connections and learning existed; just not for me.
But the ability to find mothering or to mother others? For me, that's not sick - it's manna from heaven and I wouldn't have survived without it! It's also what I'm finding is the essential ingredient in creating a recipe to thrive - not just merely survive.
-
Amber....I admit I had thought of that mother! But it's just a word, everyone needs nurture. I just wouldn't call it 'mothering'.
A female therapist legally adopting her older female client as a 'child' - you feel okay with that...?
-
In the word "mother" I guess I used it too loosely here. I don't need "mothering" as well and I hate the idea of being "mothered." Yes, that would be sick. But the friends I have love my unconditionally like a mother should and I sought them out for the need to be accepted and they accepted me.
I'm a mother now and I love "mothering." It really is a part of me which I'm proud of. Yet "mother" is earned...
Bear
-
I love 'mum' or 'mummy' :) Mum always conjures up a picture of a smiling, happy lady baking cakes and worrying about my homework, even though that's nothing like what I got. I guess I created a picture in my head of what I wanted and just kept it. I love being a mummy to my little boy - making things for him, taking him to places he loves, cuddling him and chatting with him. I love watching him run around - he doesn't seem to have the same cares, worries and anxieties that I had when I was young (I hope!).
I've had two occasions when women my mum's age - complete strangers - told me they thought I was a lovely mum. I may already have posted about this so sorry if I'm repeating myself (but I'll tell it again anyway!).
Once was at a swimming pool when my little boy was about three. We were getting changed afterwards and I wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary - just got him dried and dressed and then put him in the playpen with some toys and a snack while I got changed. I was just chatting to him and this lady remarked that it was lovely to see a young mum (bless her for saying young!) being so nice with her child, and that I was obviously a good mum and he was really lucky to have me. It was so lovely to hear that; all my mum ever did was slag me off and say I was too soft on him. Another time we were walking to the park, which we did every day, whatever the weather. He was in his buggy with about forty layers on (it was January and really cold) and a big blanket over him. A lady stopped me and said she often saw me out walking with him and how nice it was to see a 'proper' mum with their child wrapped up against the cold out enjoying the fresh air. I was walking on air.
I always think of women like that when I hear the word 'mother' or 'mum'. I guess I don't associate my mum with being a mum? I hadn't thought about that before. I love the feeling of being looked after, of being cared for, emotionally. The people on this board are like virtual mums to me - the men as well as the women!!
I bet you are doing a great job with your little one, Bear :)
-
TAP: That was just beautiful! Reading this made me smile and think of those things that conjure up the word "mother." I don't know if you either "have" mothering instincts or you don't "have" them. I understand that somethings are instinctual but the other nurturing things, learned, innate?
Why do some "mothers" abuse? Why do some "mothers" abandon? Why do some "mothers" beat? Why do some "mothers" ignore while the other "mothers" teach their children to read, love and be kind to others?
My Nmom did not abandon me but she abandoned my self-esteem. She beat me with verbal words and ignored my cries for help and mercy. At times I wanted to be dead and she would get angry or laugh. My Nmom must have taught me to be kind to others because I am. I'm too kind and sometimes a doormat because I let them go too far.
I had no happy medium....
Bear
-
I just read my last post and you know what? I sound like I'm blaming my Nmom. I have to be careful not to blame her. I think that's dangerous, no? Playing the blame game is just trouble and if I go that route then I will never stop grieving and my anger will strangle me again.
I had a long talk with my older brother last night and he said that we mustn't blame Nmom for her deeds and the outcome upon us. We can feel sad about that part but blaming her opens up a whole can of therapy.
What happens to us when we blame? What can possible come of it?
Bear
-
Part of the whole process for me, Bear, was blaming, blaming, blaming. I had to go through a very, very long period where I blamed her for absolutely everything. The thing is, when your parents screw up, whose fault is it? Most of us blame ourselves, as children - we're not good enough, we're too badly behaved, we don't deserve nice things, we're not clever enough, we're too noisy, etc, etc, etc. For me, a really essential part of healing was shouting from the roof tops NONE OF THAT WAS MY FAULT!!!!! I had to go through a really angry phase to get that out of my system. I don't feel a need to blame so much now, but neither do I feel a need to take responsibility for other people and their actions. I don't think I'd have moved on if I hadn't blamed her. I can understand now why she is the way she is and why she did the things she did and I suppose I don't attribute everything bad that's ever happened to me as being her fault anymore - but I think that's only because for a long time I did let myself blame her, if for no other reason than if I didn't blame her I blamed me and I wasn't going to get better if I didn't get in touch with my anger and rage and humilation and all the other stuff and lay it at someone else's door for a while.
I don't think always blaming people for things that happen to you is healthy. A friend of mine was really angry at her husband because he went out after her and she didn't have a key. He didn't know she didn't take a key, she should have taken one or checked he was going to be home. But she didn't and blamed him for her mistake, which wasn't fair. By contrast, if she'd told him she didn't have a key and he said he'd be home, then went out knowing she couldn't get back in, then it would be fair to blame him.
I say blame away!! You don't have to tell anyone else you're doing it if it's going to cause problems, you can lay it all out on here :) I think it's a healthy part of the process. It might be what you need to do at the minute? :)
-
This is very easy for me to say because my NMom was not rageful or physically abusive.
So take it with a grain o' salt...
I think what's releasing about the blame question is when it gets to:
Great compassion for the self (perhaps following anger): This was not my fault. AND:
I deserve love, nurturing, respect, boundaries, and hope.
Next step (or perhaps just a possible eventual step): This was not her fault. AND:
She was damaged or sick or broken and what she did to me was how all that showed up.
I think accountability is different from blame.
An abusive adult who hurts/rejects/neglects/attacks/harms a child IS accountable,
no matter what suffering or neglect or abuse they in turn had been shaped by in their
own childhoods. They are accountable morally. And legally (though that's insufficient).
Accountability is a very present-tense kind of thing, maybe? Very few abusive
people volunteer for that kind of painful self-reckoning. Nobody can impose it on anyone,
except to the degree that the legal system has some remedies (it only has some, and
inconsistent ones). It's an amazing thing when some abusive folks step up and take it on,
because then their whole futures can be peaceful. But how rare is this? I think very.
Blame is an intense and maybe "sub-step" kind of emotion? It might be just
one step in healing anger -- when one rages at the universe, I AM! I am whole!
I am not a victim! I did not deserve the suffering I went through and now I will do
everything I can, out of love and respect for myself, to avoid repeating it!
I hated my mother off and on. Really did. I carried blame for her for many years.
And she was never violent or overtly cruel. Just a very crazymaking maNipulator.
But in hindsight, despite other regrets, I see that the real gift of the decade I
spent as her caregiver...was that I literally had to burn off my hatred and blame,
because meanwhile, I was so moved by her suffering in old age (she lived to 98).
It forced me into the present. What was in front of me was no longer the monstrous
psychic destroyer, but a very old woman, in diapers, partially paralysed, with her
only remaining dignity being that which was granted her by strangers.
And by me. If I did not help her, she suffered more. And the vulnerability reached my heart,
burned out the rest. Blame became pointless. Not even interesting to me, ultimately (though it sure held
my rapt attention for a verrrrrrrrrrry long time).
I think perhaps there was enough to love, enough that was loveable, in Mom, that this was
a possible or easier evolution for me. In a weird weird way, I feel extremely fortunate that
I could get there.
I just visualized her in her own life, so much, before the end, that she became a real
child to me.
There is literally one photograph of her as a child. Two years old. I now look at that
photo and feel love. I know that toddler did not plan to grow up and hurt her daughter.
If we ALL are, bottom line, our inner child...then I forgave that little girl for what she
grew up (in a very sick environment) to be.
Hops
PS--I don't for a nanosecond think everybody is "supposed to be" at the same place on
the spectrum, or even that there is an ultimate goal defined by any one person's experience
that's right for everybody else (though I do have that Judeo-Christian training that makes
the notion appealing). I also think I have been unusually lucky.
-
Thank you Hops and TAP. I see that blame has it's place and time with everyone. It ebbs and flows like the tide. I tend to blame when I look back at my college days. This is when I blame her the most because I dropped out of college due to being clinically depressed without ever knowing it. I thought something was wrong with me and that I was not "smart enough" to complete my biology courses. I had no idea it was depression. Not a clue. I blamed myself for being an idiot and a bad daughter at that. I was inept in providing emotional support to her throughout her divorce with my father and I slowly dissappeared from my college campus from exhaustion. I truly thought it was me. And it was! I was an adult and aware of my life. I should have just figured it out, right?
All the things leading up to me dropping out of college were entirely emotional and mental. I knew I absolutely loved school and what I was doing but I could not mentally juggle my mother's emotions and my struggle with physics and chemistry labs. I loved it but had to say goodbye to it.
I had to cut one of the struggles out of my life and I chose the only thing I could cut off. College. Not my mother. And so I did.
I can't stop blaming her for this.
Bear.
I say blame away!! You don't have to tell anyone else you're doing it if it's going to cause problems, you can lay it all out on here I think it's a healthy part of the process. It might be what you need to do at the minute?
I think I just told a lot of people.... :lol:
-
Hi Bear....
I think, when we ourselves choose to deny ourselves (and our real needs) to support, prop up, take care of and protect the "sick person at the center" of the family (when the roles are reversed)... we have to seriously apologize to ourselves and re-earn our own self-trust. Blaming, in this process, is a way to avoid our responsibility to ourselves... to deflect the responsibility somewhere else.
But when we are snookered into making that kind of choice - either through age (being to young to fend for oneself) or controlling behaviors or gaslighting or mind-games or.... fill in the nefarious blank... then blame is a real thing; the accountability that Hops' has splendidly described. There is a "righteous anger"... that involves a process of burning itself out... and one way to do that, is through blame.
Like Hops has said about her mom - I can "see" the place where it's really not my mom's fault either. But I'm still burning away the anger, the blame, etc... still trying to un-do the effects...
while I'm also trying to repair my relationship with myself... for my own part in that perverse dance.
Maybe you could sign up for a biology course? Even as an audit? Maybe that would get you started on the non-blaming path to repairing that self-relationshiop. It's sort of an alternate route to the same destination.
-
Maybe you could sign up for a biology course? Even as an audit? Maybe that would get you started on the non-blaming path to repairing that self-relationshiop. It's sort of an alternate route to the same destination.
Others have suggested this very same thing. Basically, I'm afraid. There, I said it.
I'm afraid of failing again: i.e., what if I didn't drop out because of my Nmom situation and really dropped out because I wasn't good enough. I may be blaming her for something I could never do.
Is this me talking now, or my Nmom. You see how I go? Up and down, in and out, never knowing what I'm truly capable of. Always afraid of what I could fail at instead of what I could succeed at. This affliction, I hate.
-
OK... I understand this.
Why not lower the bar... find something related that doesn't have pass/fail attached to it? Which part of biology did you used to like? plants animals cells? With plants, I know there are lots & lots of community activities... like master gardener courses... or courses related to a single kind of horticulture... like day lillies... at local nurseries. A "fun" class, in other words - not one for "credit".
For me, I needed to find something art related. A local natural history museum opened to artists on a Sat, to draw from their collection. I only went one time... but I spent the whole day drawing a snowy owl... I never finished the drawing; never had a chance to go back... and what was important out of that experience wasn't the drawing. It was choosing something I wanted to do - regardless of "importance or purpose" - making the plans; actually driving there (I hadn't been there before; have a great fear of "getting lost" - especially in urban areas), relaxing and talking to other artists...
it was like I finding a way to validate myself; prove to myself that it was OK being me - no matter "what" me consisted of. And that I didn't need to ask "permission" from anyone to do this; it didn't make me a bad mom or bad wife... to take a "day off" just for me.
Guest: I can't judge the therapist adopting the adult client... I just don't know enough about the situation. Maybe it's a case of transference gone wild... sick in other words... or maybe not. I'm guessing there's a whole story to go along with the bare facts, but I don't know what it is... so I don't feel qualified to have an opinion on it.
-
Amber
I'm guessing there's a whole story to go along with the bare facts, but I don't know what it is... so I don't feel qualified to have an opinion on it.
Fair enough, me neither! I'm glad you read and understood what I was saying, and what I was not saying.
-
Oh Bear,
I could be the one who wrote your first post in this thread. I so feel everything you say, and somehow it helps me not to feel so alone. How can another person have such exact feelings to my own? Is that really possible?
I too have a steering wheel, and a monitor, and a pillow, and a wife who have heard it all again and again. I too have children - one only 2yrs old as of last week, and parents who I have not seen in over a year now in person except for one mishap at a Christmas program - and they have sent extravagant amounts of gifts for her to overcompensate at Christmas. I and my wife - sent them back however.
I wonder at times, about the final result here. Is my - or our life rather - improved, by being NC.. what could have been, etc...
I too see the truth that you see. My mother, and my father as her co - now clearer than ever, have illustrated for me that there is no way I could have ever won, whether near to, or far from them. THe result is always the same. I am illustrated to the world, and to themselves as the evil, (only) son, called angry, and accused of hating them, keeping my children from them, etc. etc. poor them. They perpetuate an image - and that image is more important than anything to them. To the point that they've slandered my and my wife's charachter from here to Timbuktu - (Im in MI, USA - so thats far) and destroyed numerous relationships without care at all. I can never win, and I never could have. THere is nothing I can say to their ranting messages, and the lies they tell to others. Nothing. Nothing i can say or do. Voiceless.
I actually start to get short of breath just thinking about it.
IS my life improved from being apart from them... hmm.. like you I felt smothered before, as did my wife. I knew that they were saying things about my wife and i behind our backs before - but it was easier to not face that reality then. I knew that they loved only themselves then, but when they were smiling at me it was easier for me to subconciously prtend that they were somewhat normal - and that made me more able to go about my life not thinking about this or them every day. I was lying to myself.
These days, it is difficult. My wife and children and I have endured over a year of raging from them, and the worst disrespect I could have imagined. Lie after lie. accusation after acusation. I personally have endured 37 years as of this month - 19 yrs as an adult, of endless madness with them. situatuation after situation, time and again. Through my first marriage it was the same with them. They were one of the reasons my first wife and I split up. The stress was that enourmous.
YEt still, I spend so much time every day now - like background processes running on a computer - these thoughts about all of this wear on my resources, and my ability to concentrate, and to be effective. Sometimes I think maybe this was all a terrible mistake, and other times it's as clear as can be - this is a battle - the battle for my own independance from them, and there is no thing more valuable than your own self respect, and your soverignty. This is a battle for me - to accept and live in the truth - of what they, and I myself are/am. This is an opportunity for me to recognize and break those patterns in me if they exist - which I would not have had, if I did not take the painful step to accept the truth of who they are, and to see them from the outside. If I did not give them time to show their real face, and watch them try to destory me when I did not respond, perhaps I would not have seen it as I do now. Maybe I would not have seen the urgency to make sure I am not perpetuating any of their behavior.
It's hard. That's what I can tell you. EVery day I wonder about it. I can also tell you that you are not alone - and that I personally would welcome talking about this more - here or in the private messages on this site. Anytime.
I think sometimes that I've finally gotten it under control within myself. When I can laugh at it a bit, and not focus on it so much. But its right then that I get ambushed - by some comment, or a letter, or a carefully manipulated friend of theirs who unknowingly carries a message to me.
I wonder too, about when they die. Will I get past this then? I dont know. It may sound horrible, but at this point, if I got the call tomorrow, I think I might feel relief in some sense.
The thing there is that - if they can never hear anything I say - and they wont ever - and I have all of these things I would like to tell them, and straighten out, but never can - when they die, I will become terminally voiceless. Bottled up permanently.
Ah yeah. Tomorrow is another day. I dont expect any change.
Hang in there. You are not alone. Not in the least. ;-)
-SF
-
It does get easier. It takes a long, long time and a lot of hard work, but little by little the hold starts to get a little weaker, and your head starts to fill more and more with other, nicer things. Your self-esteem starts to improve, you start to see the world through your eyes, rather than theirs. But it does come.
Things still bug me sometimes. But they come less and less often, they bug me less when they do come and they don't bug me for as long. One day you'll be pottering about in the kitchen and suddenly realise you haven't thought about them for an hour, a day, a week. It's a lovely feeling.
Try and focus on a day at a time. Try and consciously re-direct your thinking. Sometimes it helps to give yourself a limit - ten, twenty minutes a day thinking about them. Write it all down, work at getting it out of your system. If thoughts pop into your head later in the day say "No. You have to wait until tomorrow now". Counselling has helped me no end.
Hang in there, both of you, everybody! It does get easier. It does get better. Your heart starts to soften. You start seeing nice things all around you. Your head starts to clear. The fear starts to subside. Not all at once. Not quickly. But it does start to go. xx
-
I am illustrated...as the evil, (only) son, called angry, and accused of hating them, keeping my children from them, etc. etc. poor them.
Hi SFalken...
Except for one, your parents' beliefs as you describe them are true.
You are their only son -- true.
You are angry -- true. (Who wouldn't be?)
You have sometimes hated them. (A human emotion; welcome. It's transient.).
You have sometimes kept your children from them. (Yes. Who wouldn't?)
"Poor them". (The consequences of their situation are loss and sadness.)
What's not true? The only one left is the falsehood that drives the desperation of your feelings. That shaming message. But you are not evil. (They aren't either.)
The one that matters least, which you will see as time goes on, is their "campaign" to shame you. After you spend enough time with your own truth, you will have a moment: I do not deserve this, but also I cannot control it. So I will release it.
(When my Nsociopathic brother did an extended smear campaign against me...involving relatives, neighbors, church, lawyers, local agencies, etc., it was brutal. Knowing there were so many bald lies flying around about me was one of the most painful things I'd been through. I remembered wishing I could rent a billboard to post the evidence that showed he was manipulative, malicious, and abusive. My exoneration, which wound up building a detailed file of evidence that in fact I was the opposite of the slander--his projected guilt was why he attacked--was sweet. But after a while, I realized it was my own respect for myself that healed me. I had endured his bullying for years as a child, and while he wasn't noticing me as a human being...I had developed some strengths he did not anticipate. He expected me to quiver and suffer as I had as a child. The difference was, I suffered but I also screamed for help and I fought back. I was still afraid of him, but I fought for myself. I won.)
Sorry, self-absorbed hijack. Getting back to slander, which you are understandably distressed by--I finally recognized that anyone who would believe him or judge me without asking or knowing me, was not to be a person i would any longer allow to weigh down my life.) After after a few years...the weight is nearly completely gone. I feel happiness again; interest in my future rather than obsession with my past.
I believe you will feel happiness, too, as soon as you increase your self-respect to the point that you no longer allow their judgments of you to become your own.
And if you get to a place where YOU have something to say; you will be able to choose it and say it. Or choose otherwise.
It will not be about what might be said back, or be said by someone else. It will just be about saying your own truth and releasing the outcome.
YOU are the only one you really need to make peace with, dear SFalken. The rest follows naturally, once you do that.
xo
Hops
-
Dear bearwithme: I recognise what you are feeling here and I identify with it.
You feel like you will lose and the dealer will win no matter what because the game is rigged and the dealer is cheating you.
I would say that those of us who had Nar-parents have been cheated out of certain things that can in no way ever be replaced.
It's something that I have greived slowly....and it is still taking me time to accept and live with it.
I agree with you that the nar-parents really are suffering from something severe and it helps me to remind myself of that.
-
I came to reread these posts today because I needed the help. Sfalken: I can't get over that you have not one but two N's for parents, I couldn't fathom such a hell. My father was not an N but became voiceless himself under my Nmom's rage and angry explosions on a daily basis.
Basically, I need to hear (read) these words often and I think everyone here has shared such strong emotions, truths and experience. It's amazing how well versed we all are in this subject and have the problem down pat from hurt and anger to changing our lives for the better no matter how difficult and strange it feels.
I remain hurt and angry today. Maybe tomorrow I'll be happy and not think about it. Some days are so bad and I hate them. Sometimes, out of the blue, my heart drops to my toes when I think of my Nmom missing the baby and it will be almost a year since she's seen her only grandchild. Sometimes I just grieve and that hurts, too.
All of this is necessary. I get it.
Thanks all for being here for me to rehash, etc...
Bear
-
Bear, hang in there.
I cope with bad days better now because I know they are just that - moments in time that will pass. There are things that ease bad days for me - long walks, trips to the park, comedy films, curling up in bed with a good book, endless cups of tea and some chocolate biscuits. Do you ever go to the cinema with your little one? I've just started doing this with my son and I love it, such a great escape, hidden away from the world watching films about fairy tales or talking gnomes or whatever is on at the time.
Good days I treasure all the more because the bad days make them seem shinier, you know? I look at my mum and I see her on the same path as me. She grew up in a difficult home, just like me, with parents who didn't do a great job and who made her feel worthless, useless, lazy and ugly. She had bad relationships, which made her problems worse, she struggled financially and so on. She got to a point where she had to choose between facing all of that - all the pain, the hurt, the betrayal, the abandonment - and working through it - mostly on her own - and ignoring it, burying the pain deeper, drinking more to blot it out. Short term, she made choices that eased her pain. But she lost herself, her children and her grandchildren along the way.
The way I see it is that I learnt from her mistakes. I took the painful path! I stopped being around them and started working on myself. It's been four years now. I sooooo understand where you are now. Anniversaries are hard, birthdays are hard, Christmas and so on. But you're building a future for yourself that will feature your child (children, maybe), good friends, a healthy sense of self, an awareness of who you are and what you want. It's harder, in the short term, than burying it and pretending, but long term I think it must be worth it's weight in gold. You're making sure your child won't have to deal with this when they are raising a family; they'll be able to concentrate on their children because you did all this hard, hard work for them now.
I have more good days than bad now. I'm finding my emotions come to the surface more readily than they used to and, perhaps more importantly, I understand them and can work with them more easily than I used to. There's a lot of old stuff coming up at the minute and some days I just howl, it hurts so much. But once the pain subsides it somehow feels a little bit better, a little bit cleaner? I don't know how to describe it. But it feels like it's worth it. I feel like I'm growing into myself, more and more.
I feel sorry for my mum more than I feel angry at her these days. That empathy for her used to be my downfall, it's what made me keep going back because I could see how messed up she was and I wanted her to get better. But eventually I realised that she had to make those changes, not me.
Your mum could have made some effort to resolve the situation, Bear. If she really wanted to see your daughter she could have called or written to you and asked if you could talk, make some arrangement, made some sort of gesture that she wanted to work on the situation properly, like an adult. I don't think she's done that? Not in a way that makes you comfortable. Which kind of shows you're doing the right thing, even though it doesn't always feel like it.
Hang in there. It does get better over time.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((Bear)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
-
((((((((Bear))))))))))))
just some comfort,
don't have adequate words for mothers and daughters today.
I see your pain and your bravery and I hope this wave soon passes.
love,
Hops
-
Bear -
Accountability...
instead of justice or responsibility. I know it's semantics... but it might help. To be responsible for one's actions one must first be self-aware; aware of how we impact others. The abusive in this world aren't self-aware like that.
This is my explanation for why there are no apologies... no admission of wrongs... it's as if they have no concept of how their behavior and words affects others... even to the point of violence.
I've found myself "hooked" into the circling mind-games even without contact with my mom... because I wanted to explain her in some way that made sense... I've wanted to excuse her for being mentally ill... I've wanted some cosmic sheriff to show up & take her into parent-court and present all the evidence of the injustices she forced on me... and I've wanted it to be possible to at least like her... and maybe some day forgive her.
And it wasn't until I began to realize this wasn't going to happen... and none of it worked for me... the ever-present circling around the topic in my mind was almost self-abuse, I realized one day... once I saw that, I began to understand what people mean by "let it go"...
... if I just stopped thinking about it and thought about other things; let myself feel other things; notice what is going on around me and participate in it... some of the old pain, hurt, and endless beating head on brick wall thoughts - lessened. Quieted down to a "dull roar"... moved far enough away that I could start to have whole days when I didn't even think about it...
and I started to realize I had to figure out who I am - with that much freedom (something new to focus on)...
and that this made more sense, was more practical than trying to solve the old unsolvable riddle of my mom...
and as long I was angry, seeking justice, or even hurt and feeling abandoned... I was still making my whole existence ABOUT HER... and not working on me.
And that was something I could really do something about, ya know?
-
You're all beautiful. I'm in tears. Phoenix: you are spot on with "Accountability." I get this. I need to work through it and find it. Hops: I needed the hug.....always.
Much needed words today.
Thank you.
TAP wrote:
She grew up in a difficult home, just like me, with parents who didn't do a great job and who made her feel worthless, useless, lazy and ugly. She had bad relationships, which made her problems worse, she struggled financially and so on. She got to a point where she had to choose between facing all of that - all the pain, the hurt, the betrayal, the abandonment - and working through it - mostly on her own - and ignoring it, burying the pain deeper, drinking more to blot it out. Short term, she made choices that eased her pain. But she lost herself, her children and her grandchildren along the way.
This moved me to a place I hadn't gone for a while. My headshaking hasn't stopped...."who made her feel worthless, useless, lazy and ugly..." I have no words.
I'm better tonight because of this deep depressing reality. Somehow, somewhere, I feel okay because I know my suffering is right and real because of this board...and the fact you all can say these things and KNOW what the heck I'm talking about, where in my life outside this board, no one else gets it whatsoever.
Bear.
-
((((((((((((BEAR))))))))))))))
It hurts to pull that band-aid off... it hurts like hell, yes! But you also will let sunshine and fresh air in, now to finally heal that stubborn, oozy, wound. That will still take more time... and you'll still ponder and question and puzzle over things; you may even still blame... as you begin to do and think different things. IT'S OK... there's no "right" way - only your way of walking the healing path.
Don't be a stranger, while you're processing next steps, OK? I found I really needed to have the feedback of everyone here... I really needed another human being to reassure me that I wasn't horrible for thinking and feeling what I felt. Still do! :D Maybe I was "needier" than a lot of people, I don't know... but we are what - where - who we are... at this stage and the most essential thing needed is to know that you're heard, understood, and you're not bat-shit crazy...
It'll be all right, Bear...