Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: les on November 08, 2004, 04:08:37 PM
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Thought it might be good for some of the members to focus on the unique needs of caring for old N's. Much has been said in other posts but oh well here's a new yet old topic...so to speak.
It seems there are some unique challenges. One that seems to torment some "caregivers" is the difficulty of dealing with N parents honestly because they are soo old. poor dears.
Another problem I am encountering is that the Nish ways seem to be growing as they join hands with perhaps the first signs of dementia. It's hard to say really. My Nm's behaviour has been consistently Queen N all her life. Maybe 2 things are happening. I am really seeing who she is for the first time, eyes wide open, and who she is seems even more exaggerated as her ablilities diminish.
To the guest who suggested getting more help - we are looking in to Meals on Wheels - this time she didn't resist the idea. Thanks
Only Me - perhaps you have given and update elsewhere about your struggle to maintain some control over what is rightly yours. Could you let me know if you posted elsewhere? or perhaps you could post here when you feel up to it.
Les
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This is a great thread. I, too, have been noticing that some of my NMom's antics are becoming more exaggerated and more frequent. And I have been wondering if it is partly because I am increasingly more aware, or if she is exhibiting more as she ages. For instance, tonite when I was on the phone, stroking her with compliments about how well she is doing on her own, she said "Thank you, you are the only person who can say these things to me, now...." I know she literally needs her quota of flattery.
Horrors at the thought of N plus dementia - but you are very perceptive to notice the subtle changes. I'll keep my radar tuned, and will let you know what I see.
ps: Les, yes, see the 'beware the troll' thread' where I wrote a note the other day. So happy you didn't leave the group! I was tempted, but would be sucked into the NM's black hole if I didn't have this group to keep me alive and sane!
pps: and to the guest who suggested help: Great ideas, and thank you -
she is living alone, is 85, with a rental car on a four-year lease which shows she has no intention of aging! Reality does not apply to her. But, we now have someone to clean, someone to garden and cut the grass, someone to clear the snow, someone to pick up and cart away the garbage, and have bought her that emergency button to wear around her neck, just in case she falls down and can't get up! But, even though she has chosen a swanky seniors' residence, she has no intention of going into a place with Old People, yet. However, she has also said that when she does, she intends to be on the Board of the place so she can have input into how it is operated! Yes, she is a N, to the core, and way too independent to even consider leaving her home, yet.
And yes, it seems they live a very long long long life............ :roll:
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My 76 year old NMother is extremely dependent. Is this unusual, or are there others out there? (On some level I guess all Ns are dependent - they need us to feed them their N-supply.)
My Dad did eveything for her - pandered to her every whim (was he some kind of inverted N?? Definitely some kind of co-dependecy thing going on there. Still figuring that one out, though.) Anyway, NM is basically a spoilt brat!
After my Dad died (April 2000), NMum came to live here (DAMN! I should have followed my sister's example and moved to the other side of the world.) For the first 4 months she lived WITH us, which was sheer HELL. :evil: Even my very laid-back H said it was intolerable. Now she has her own apartment in a retirement complex, where she manipulates the House Manager and anyone else she can. She gets a 92 year old very frail old woman who walks with a frame to post her letters for her; "It's alright, she has to go to the Post Office anyway."
Without Dad she is NOTHING, but she still manages to wield the power and see herself as important and special. Or it flips over and she's the sorriest soul, the greatest martyr there ever was. My aunt had to have half her leg amputated after a failed bypass operation. NM's comment? ..... "It's OK for her, she's the sort of person that can deal with a thing like that!" :shock: Meanwhile, we have to be so sympathetic about all NM's little aches and pains.
Sorry, starting to rant on a bit there.
For some time now, I've been wondering if NM is losing some mental functioning. It's been hard to tell how much is down to her age, the bereavement or just being N. Also, the more I grow to understand about NPD, the more I can see it at work in her. Yes, I think it becomes more exaggerated with age.
:idea: Great book: 'Why is it Always About YOU?' by Sandy Hotchkiss
- has a chapter (now rather well-worn and dog-eared) 'Narcissism and Aging:the mirror cracks'. The book outlines four coping strategies, then applies them to several different situations/circumstances.
The strategies are: Know Yourself, Embrace Reality, Set Boundaries and Cultivate Reciprocal Relationships. In other words: know what your 'buttons' are and be aware of when they're being pushed; be realistic about what you can achieve (in the case of dealing with the aging N, getting help bought in seems to be far better than trying to do it yourself!); set boundaries AND STICK TO THEM; and keep nurturing your support system of friends, relatives, anybody who understands - don't give yourself over to the N.
2 more excellent books that have helped me enormously:
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward and
'When You and Your Mother Can't be Friends' by Victoria Secunda
I've been working hard for some months now, hungry to learn as much as I can about NPD and trying to find how to deal with my NM and come to terms with my situation (since Dad died, 'cos he was my shield). I'm so, so, so glad to have found this message board now. Thinking of all my reading, and imagining you all urging me on, I was finally able at the weekend to stand my ground, set my boundaries and say a firm "NO!" to a couple of NM's excessive demands (so like dealing with a small child!). I was shaking afterwards and burst into tears as I put down the phone, but I did it!!!!!!!!
Oops! Getting tearful again now at the thought of it. OK, I've rambled on long enough!!
Thank you, thank you, thank you
Av
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Go Av Go! Just had to jot a quick note to congratulate you on defending your boundaries! If she can get a 92 year old to do her bidding, I imagine you have to be on guard all the time!
Hi Only Me - I'm running out the door but wanted to say hi. Also wonder for your sake if you can wean your mother off some of the flattery.God, we all used to play right into it - still do of course, but less now and it feels good (you knew that it would) I was looking into one of those buzzer things for my mother awhile back and then dropped it. Could you tell me a little more about your mother's device. Thanks
Les
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Just spent a week with my Nmom who needed surgery (dad is in a nursing home). My sister was unavailable to get time off to fly across the country - so I got to fly to be with the mom.
She insisted (without my knowledge) that the hospital set up a bed for me to spend the night with her (grrr). Of course, I could have left, but the guilt was there to spend the night on an awfully uncomfortable chair.
Although this was planned surgery, do you think the bed was made with clean sheets at home - not even. There was no food in the refrigerator. Fortunately, the house had been somewhat picked up. Wound up doing on the shopping, filling the car, etc.
As the week progressed, she would ask me, "what should I make for lunch". Interpretation - - - "what are you going to make me for lunch?" After a day of this, I told her I wasn't hungry, but she could feel free to find something in the fridge (we went out to lunch).
Occupational Therapist and Physical Therapist came out and told her lifestyle changes to be made. She must move out to a retirement home ASAP. She must get up and walk around (she mostly likes to sit in a chair and do crafts, or monopolize people's time on the phone). She was told to get a cell phone and to get one of those LifeLine buzzers in case she falls and breaks a hip. She's determined they are too much money (she can pay for it).
So my sister and my options are to call the doctor and tell him that she's making bad choices, and then pursue an attorney to declare her incompetent to care for herself (and then be hated even more for the rest of our lives), or just let her fall and break her hip because of her stubborness.
I'm back home, but now the backbiting will start to the rest of the family. It's good to be home!
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Hi Les, OnlyMe, Avril and all,
The story with my 79 year old Nmother is similar to Avril's in that she was widowed in 2000 and my father had done everything for her for as long as he was able. I have come to believe that he might well have been an inverted N. I don't recall ever having a personal conversation with him; he was very reserved and distant but was able to focus completely on my mother. He took pride in her appearance and especially her ability to dominate social situations.
Since learning about NPD I've been able to step back quite a bit emotionally and I can see that although Nmom's behavior is just as self-absorbed as ever, she is showing signs of diminishing abilities especially loss of short term memory and the ability to focus on anything that doesn't directly pertain to her comfort. It's not exactly an exaggeration of NPD behavior, but more that her attempts to conform to any kind of norm are falling away and I can easily anticipate that there will come a time when she won't be able to function at all in a social environment. She can't cope with the everyday business of maintaining a house, or the logistics of doctor appointments and such, but adamantly refuses to consider a retirement community. She is too prone to rages to be able to assert herself without completely antagonizing the other party.
Although I feel sad for what is happening, thankfully my father left her with enough to afford senior care. Whether or not she'll be willing to do that is another story. I have a feeling she might just self-destruct before letting anyone tell her what to do. It's as if she's shaking her fist at age and time and defying them to get the better of her. It feels as though a crisis is looming, but I also know that she loves to create that feeling of imbalance and the sense of a drama with herself at the center.
Thank goodness for the internet, all of you, and the calm that comes with information and knowledge.
Singer
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I can hardly believe how similar our lives with our NParents are! It is a struggle trying to cope with their old-age and the N, because either one is more than enough.
What a comfort to be able to share what we experience and to learn from one another - and what a huge comfort to know that I am not the only one! This is an important thread. I read recently that a N needs even more reassurance when they age, and I seem to be dealing with that stage at the moment. While NM has quite a few social contacts, she still seems to need my accolades. But, yes, I am trying to wean her off slowly. Haven't spoken with her today, so that is a big step - trying to skip a day now. Whew.
Les, I sent you a PM with info on my Old Doll's personal alarm system - didn't want to advertise one type or another, trying to mind my Board manners!
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...I am trying to wean her off slowly. Haven't spoken with her today, so that is a big step - trying to skip a day now. Whew
That was a big change for me too. I would try to maintain contact every day even when I knew that I'd only be allowing her to vent her anger. I stopped when I realized that I was probably doing more harm than good. In retrospect I see that my father not only tolerated her excesses, but was her best and most uncritical audience. Things might have been different if she hadn't had that. Or more likely she would have just recreated it somewhere else.
I still call her several times a week and try to see that she has food in the house, but beyond that I have refined the skill of zoning out when she launches into one of her vindictive monologues. She knows what I'm doing, but when called on it I play dumb. She's always been stronger willed than I am, and I think she fears that I might actually be selfish enough to become senile before she does. Might seem like stupid game playing, but it allows me to check on her even after she's hung up on me in frustration. I pretend not to notice.
Bottom line, I do care what happens to her; just don't feel so responsible anymore. I don't think she'd risk damnation by actually taking her own life, ( love the briar patch reference, Moonflower) and breaking a limb will just land her in the nursing home she's bent on avoiding. So we're at an impasse of sorts, but there is strength in knowledge and the more I find out about NPD the better I feel able to cope. Even if coping means stepping back emotionally; maybe that's just something we're meant to learn. As an ACON I feel like I might fall into the trap of thinking that now she's old and it's my turn to be right for once. But that is a trap; I don't want to be right; just want peace of mind.
And that's why I think this thread is so important. As they reach the end of their reign, the last thing N's want to leave us with is peace of mind. So we'll just have to find it for ourselves, right? :wink:
Singer
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Wow! I am getting so much support, information, affirmation from this thread. I've re-read everybody's messages over again.
les said:
Go Av Go! Just had to jot a quick note to congratulate you on defending your boundaries! If she can get a 92 year old to do her bidding, I imagine you have to be on guard all the time!
thanks for your comments. You've really hit the nail on the head when you say 'on guard all the time!' It can be very wearing.
To Les, Singer and Moonflower especially (but also to others with whom I now resonate):
It feels so good to share with people who truly understand what life is like with an NMom. Most people I talk to about her don't believe she can really be that bad, that I must be exaggerating, or I'm being really unsympathetic to my poor old Mom! Those who meet her almost invariably describe her as "sweet" - :x Yuck!! Sickly sick! Makes me want to spit!
And Les, thank you for starting this thread. It's something I need to work through at the moment, as I try to come to terms with NMom living nearby since Dad died and my increasing responsibility for her. I hate it. I really resent it!
I try to leave her to her own devices as much as I can, but as time goes by, there are things that she can't do for herself any more. She's becoming more and more vulnerable and it really worries me: I keep thinking, "Things can only get worse."
I'm so glad she's in a semi-sheltered environment, with help on hand for emergencies. So far she's resisting any other kinds of help we might buy in, but I'll keep trying from time to time.
Wow, Singer, I think I have a lot to learn from you. I have found so much of what you say very helpful. Thank you
Av
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oops! I was sure I had logged in, but apparently not.
That was me above
Avril.
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Hi Les,
Is your old doll still resistant to the nursing home idea? How far into dementia do you think she's gone? How much longer can you realistically care for her? Sorry about all the questions...hope they don't make you feel uncomfortable or anything. That is definately not the intention :wink:
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Hi -- Just wanted to say how similar my experience is with my aging NM. She has had a number of mini-strokes and has trouble with short-term memory -- gets confused and tries to cover it up, and also simply can't carry on a conversation about ideas for very long -- can't follow a logical thread. Unfortunately, the brain damage seems to have loosened her social inhibitions -- during a visit, when kissing me good night she bit me on the cheek, then said it was a "love bite." She has also hugged me so hard it hurts and I can't breath. I hate her touching me in the first place and find it horrible -- I truly feel that she is trying to absorb me or suck my life force to keep herself going.
I have it relatively easy, as my father is still in good shape and takes care of her -- also, they don't live close by, thank heaven. But I think it's very hard on him. He never complains, but when they visit, he frequently goes off with my husband and leaves me alone with her -- oh, joy. I think he needs the break and time to talk to someone who still has all their marbles.
At some level I feel sorry for her because I can see that she hates being old and is struggling to stay in control. She is adamant that she will never go into a senior's residence or home of any kind, and I dread the possibility of my father becoming ill or unable to look after her. None of the family live near them. The one thing I know for sure is that I will never have her come to live with us -- it would be impossible and would drive me mad. I can also see that based on her behavior now she could turn mean or even violent if her mental deterioration advances.
It's sad, but I know that for my own sanity there are limits to what I'll do for her. As others have said, the question is how to do that and maintain your peace of mind -- not feel guilty about it.
It's good to be able to share with others in the same boat.
Guest
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There are so many things in the posts I'd like to respond to but still having trouble operating the quote option. Sheesh.
Singer - I agree, we do need to step back emotionally. It's a challenge to be sure since as one poster so brilliantly said somewhere- they made our buttons, installed them and so know exactly how to push them; that coupled with the natural instinct to take care of parents makes it a hard balancing act. But sounds like we are all getting the hang of it.
Last poster - thanks for the questions - actually there have been some new developments. A social worker is involved now. My mother is horrified, angry and insulted by this. But she brought it on herself by talking non-stop to every doctor she saw about how "depressed" she was. She may well be suffering from "clinical depression" as she tells everyone, particularly me, to milk it for all its worth.( I do know that depression is quite common in old folks but if you saw this oldie in action...) Guess she diagnosed herself! One geriatric specialist decided to send in the troops! I was there for the 2nd SW visit. At one point the SW said- "Are you the same woman I spoke to last week?" At this visit, NM was adamant that she was not depressed and was not going to be dumped in a home. The SW tried to explain that she was not there to do that but to just talk about how to enhance her life where she was. It was quite something to watch this very skilled SW struggle with all the different versions and realities that popped out. NM is so combative. She told the SW that she wasn't depressed she was reallyANGRY that at 91 she can't do the things she has always done. -almost stamp stamp, it's not fair, why me? "My daughter talks to me about "acceptance'(sneer). Well I will never accept it!"
As always, NM only says what she thinks will score the most points and get her what she wants. Truth is a foreign notion. What is her emotional truth? Actually when I think about that I feel a bubble of sympathy. But my empathy gland has been completely drained. sucked dry.
There are so many of versions of reality, so many different personalities, it's so draining. Fortunately the SW saw this in action so I don't feel so alone with all this. I need to hold the middle rational ground and not follow every NM statement through to the end - I think as Singer suggested -zone out. I am rambling here so please excuse the length. Just one example, Nm said something she thought was extra brilliant and said," Sometimes I just amaze myself!" I just said, "Ok mom, I'll see you at 2." No reflecting back. Felt good.
I spoke to the S.W afterwards and told her that it would kill me if I had to live with my NM. She reassured my that she had no intention of promoting that solution!
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Les said:
spoke to the S.W afterwards and told her that it would kill me if I had to live with my NM. She reassured my that she had no intention of promoting that solution!
Hey, Les. Do you think you would have had the guts to say that before coming to the board? Just wondering.
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Not Les here, but I doubt if I'd have the guts to even think it.
Les, I'm glad to hear that a social worker is now involved. I'd thought about contacting one, but not until I'm sure she wouldn't be able to convince them that I'm the one who needs professional help. Your posts have really made me aware that my 79 year old Nmother might very well be going strong for another ten years or more. Last week she told me she had been to her doctor and that he had told her that she had the beginning symptoms of congestive heart failure. It was a lie; she hadn't been to the doctor and in fact complains regularly about how unprofessional doctors in general are these days. Meaning they congratulate her on her good health and don't take her claims of "depression" as sufficient reason to listen for three hours to how her children, her brothers and sisters, her father, her mother, my father, the gardener and the cashier at the grocery store failed to live up to her expectations.
I like what you said about being able to feel some sympathy, but no empathy. I'm not a part of her anymore, not the defective, scared, awkward and socially inept part of her that she thought she could isolate and point a finger at, and condemn or --the most painful--ridicule.
Avril, I can understand how resentful you feel for feeling responsible for your NM. I have a brother and a sister who are more than happy to take my NM's venom as an excuse to stay out of the picture. Doesn't exactly warm my heart toward them, but I have to realize that it's their choice. I know where they're coming from, and, admit it or not, trying to work through this crap is my choice. Who knows, maybe I will ( we will) learn something. :)
Singer
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The problem in my family, and I'm not entirely certain who's problem it is exactly, is that NO ONE is willing to take on responsibility for my aging parents.
Neither myself, my brother or sister has any interest in being "the one" to take that responsibility. I think they both assumed I would be "the one" as I was closest in proximity to my parents (within 25 miles), while they both live out of state, plus I am the family's "whipping girl". However, some time ago I moved out of state myself (not to get away from them specifically, but it did end up being a nice added bonus).
I've been on the receiving end of the majority of my parents' crap, and I've simply had enough, although I am still stuck dealing with them in ways my siblings simply aren't. I would be fine with sharing the burden, but its not going to be mine exclusively. My sister is just flat out terrified at the prospect, and from comments my brother makes I gather he just thinks its all my problem. I guess my question is, what do Nparents do when they've finally successfully alienated everyone and no one wants to be there for them?
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I guess my question is, what do Nparents do when they've finally successfully alienated everyone and no one wants to be there for them?
They find other suppliers or they end up in state-run nursing homes. And I think they brought it on themselves.
bunny
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I have a brother and a sister who are more than happy to take my NM's venom as an excuse to stay out of the picture. Doesn't exactly warm my heart toward them, but I have to realize that it's their choice. I know where they're coming from, and, admit it or not, trying to work through this crap is my choice. Who knows, maybe I will ( we will) learn something. :)
At some point, I think it's totally okay to pressure siblings to help out THE CAREGIVER (their own brother or sister). They aren't helping out for the sake of the N parents but for their sibling! I wouldn't let this brother and sister off the hook because it's "their choice." Of course they can't be forced at gunpoint but I see no reason to give them a guilt-free pass on this.
bunny
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Please don't be too hard on the siblings that aren't involved. If the old person is N then they have a right to protect themselves against a destructive person no matter who they are. That being said, it is all of your responsibility to make sure the N parent is taken care of. But that doesn't mean you have to do it personally. There are agencies and other help available. It just has to get done. You can get the siblings to help with costs or research, but again....you and your siblings have a right to protect against an N. It doesn't matter if mom or dad is their name. Make sure they have a shelter, food, medical care. That's it. If you CHOOSE to make it a personal choice to be personally involved, let the sister or brother know what they can do. But I wouldn't waste time getting miffed at them for not making the same choice as you. And be very concrete about what they can do to help you. That will make it easier for everyone involved.
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Hi Again,
I think I might have been too hard on my brother and sister when I wrote about their lack of involvement with NM. Actually there's more to it than that; NM simply doesn't seem to be able to deal with more than one family member at a time. My sister has made efforts, but every time my mother has contact with me she turns on my sister. So my sister assumes I am checking on Nmom and stays out of the line of fire.
With my brother it's another story. I think he was truly shocked when NM pulled off the gloves after our father died and turned her rage on him. She will not accept his wife, and sadly will not accept two out of his three children either. The oldest one she tolerates. Again it's the NPD pattern of not being able to deal with more than one individual at a time. Personally I think it would be very detrimental to his family if he were to be drawn into the fray He has enough on his plate with three children on their way to adolescence. Another NPD aspect of this is that she can’t tolerate the thought that he might not think she’s worth the price of his involvment. His provoked anger is much preferable to her than indifference.
As for myself, I have no intention of becoming a victim or a martyr. Some of my reasons for wanting to maintain contact with NM are quite selfish. I don't want her to leave this earth before I figure out how the hell she managed to emotionally set me up with one hand while she slapped me down with the other.
I get a clue from time to time. Like this weekend she called while I was reading. She wanted to know what I was reading. It happened to be a cookbook (I read recipes in lieu of cooking). NM: “You know if you’re so interested in that stuff you should have done something with it like that woman who landed in jail.” Me: “You mean Martha Stewart?” NM: “Yes, why couldn’t you have done something like that?” I assume she didn’t mean why couldn’t I get sent to prison, but the point is that as long as I can remember she has taken any interest or accomplishment and turned it into another example of failure. Grandiosity served up with a side of disgrace.
As for Frustrated’s question about what do N’s do when they’ve succesfully alienated everyone, I’m inclined to agree with Bunny. They will end up where they deserve to end up, but in the meantime since I’m not in a position to afford therapy, I’ll take advantage of this opportunity to examine my wounds. Sounds pretty cold; wonder where I got that from.
Singer
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I don't want her to leave this earth before I figure out how the hell she managed to emotionally set me up with one hand while she slapped me down with the other.
She has a mental illness which causes her to go psycho while appearing to be lucid.
NM: “You know if you’re so interested in that stuff you should have done something with it like that woman who landed in jail.” Me: “You mean Martha Stewart?” NM: “Yes, why couldn’t you have done something like that?” I assume she didn’t mean why couldn’t I get sent to prison, but the point is that as long as I can remember she has taken any interest or accomplishment and turned it into another example of failure. Grandiosity served up with a side of disgrace.
You know she's talking about herself, right?
bunny
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Hi Les and everyone!
I feel such a kinship with those of you on this thread. I am just licking my wounds from an overnite with NMom two days ago. This time an old friend went with me, to watch my back, but I still had to go to bed for a day when I got home - I swear I don't understand the power of that little woman, but I get really sick after being in her company, being invisible and voiceless - this time I had tingling arms and legs on top of the boohoos and a major headache.....grrrrr. Sometimes I feel she is Evil in flesh. One of the hardest things, I find, is to not be able to trust my own mother. I still grapple with that concept. She is doing quite a few things to undermine me at the moment, and I only know thanks to the grapevine. When I confronted her with one issue, she managed to twist my words to such an extent that I wanted to kill myself out of sheer frustration. My friend calmly changed the subject to admiring NM's outfit, which led to her giving us a 1 1/2 hr fashion show of her new clothes ... at midnight until 1:30am!!! And that is when my friend saw my NM twirling around like a six year old, showing off her new things.....it was really really scary to see.
Les, I am interested that you have a SW on the scene now. That must be a huge help for you. I'd give my eye teeth to have one come to see NM. Unfortunately, NM puts on such a fabulous show whenever anyone else is around, that I doubt a SW would see anything wrong with her and her situation at all. However, cataract surgery is looming on the horizon by spring. That might affect her driver's licence, which might affect her independence, which might lead to putting her in a Retirement Home - have my fingers crossed!
Yes, the intellectual side of me knows that I should just run away in the other direction and never look back, but since I am the only one left in her family, no siblings, etc - I feel a responsibility to make sure she is okay. I'm hoping to just talk on the phone and not go back until Christmas. Quite the tightrope I'm walking these days.
Thanks for being there, and understanding, and helping, everyone. Couldn't manage to cope as well, without you all and your helpful voices. I can't quite see the light at the end of the tunnel, but I trust that it is there.
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Singer, Singer - my god, what a struggle it is but I feel your grit, your fierce determination. Now I wonder if there is anything that could be done with your mother's response to you reading a cookbook. Hmmm, thinking. Nope. For a minute I thought there might be an opportunity to toss it back so she could see what she's saying. What a thing for her to say! Really makes me mad! But what am I saying! Is it even remotely possible for a woman that would say this to appreciate its impact. What did you say back to her by the way?
Guest question - No, I could not have told the SW that living with my mother would kill me if I hadn't had the truly awesome support of this board. So many people to thank here - even a mouse in a red cape! - I also told my mother very, very clearly and firmly (in a more diplomatic way) the same thing last week. I can feel that she thinks I'll give up this childish notion that we have difficulties, finally come to my senses and invite her to live with me. She is flabbergasted I believe that I have left her blowing in the wind contending with the idea of meals on wheels and homes and horrors, social workers. Soo I made it clear before the SW came, just in case there was any doubt about living with me,that it would not work. She said, "Yes, I know, your house just isn't set up for it."(she hates this house and has been trying to get us to move to a "decent" house for years - I wonder why?) I said, "It's more than that." She said,"Well, 3 generations just can't live together." So I said,
(approx) " You and I have serious issues which we will probably never resolve and we can not live together." I fell apart on the weekend. I don't know if it was the strain of such truthfulness. She seems absolutely fine -
Re: the question you asked Singer - about how is it they set you up then knock you down. To me, it feels like being the straight man in a comedy act. I am there so her punch line is that much stronger. Now, finally, when I am asked what I think about something I can see a few steps ahead - It has taken me all my 55 years to realize that I get set up all the time. Poor old Charlie Brown - I don't know if he ever realized that Lucy will always keep yanking the football away just when he is ready to kick it.
This weekend I realized my mother is really like a very jealous older sibling. She wanted a group of admirers, maybe playmates, but damned if those playmates didn't want lives of their own as they grew up. How dare they.
thank you, thank you all. I am really letting it out, cutting loose here! Have much more to say but will wrap for now.
hugs to you all
Les
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You know she's talking about herself, right?
Bunny, when I read that it makes sense, but I just can't easily make that leap in my thinking on an emotional level. NM doesn't have any more outstanding accomplishments on her record than I do, but in her mind she doesn't need to; just being herself is enough. Once, not long ago, during an argument I asked her exactly what she figured she had achieved in her life that set her so far above the rest of us. She's never answered the question, but instead has added it to her list of often mentioned thoughtless things I have said.
Is it even remotely possible for a woman that would say this to appreciate its impact. What did you say back to her by the way?
I didn't say anything. My role in the conversation had ended at that point and she was off and running. I don't really remember anything specific about the rest of the conversation, although I've tried. I guess I really am getting good at zoning out, or else advancing short term memory loss is taking care of it for me. :)
One of the things that upsets me most about the elderly N's is this. When I was a child I thought the reason I was always inferior, lacking whether it was in appearance, or intellect, or confidence was because I was too young to have mastered these things. As I got older that elusive age of achievement was always just beyond my grasp. According to NM, someone else's daughters had done it all, done it better, and done it while better dressed. I can't get that time back. I can't go back in time and be content with who I am, or who I was. And if NM could have her way, she'd steal my old age too.
It makes me so sad, Only Me when I read that you are sick in bed after an overnite with your NM. She's robbing you of entire days of your own life and appropriating them for herself, for her own selfish vanity. It's time to put a stop to that. Sometimes, for whatever reasons, we can't just walk away, but that doesn't mean we can't level the playing field a little bit. :wink:
Singer
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NM doesn't have any more outstanding accomplishments on her record than I do, but in her mind she doesn't need to; just being herself is enough. Once, not long ago, during an argument I asked her exactly what she figured she had achieved in her life that set her so far above the rest of us. She's never answered the question, but instead has added it to her list of often mentioned thoughtless things I have said.
I'll explain what I'm trying to say.....there is my observation of her internal world and there's what she'll admit to. Her self-perception is shallow, severely distorted, a bit psychotic (i.e. not grounded in reality). I'm not going to get any validation or admissions from her because she fled reality long ago, if she was ever there in the first place. My perception is that her internal world has extremely harsh, critical, punitive, sadistic internal objects (templates). She projects them on you, hoping you will soak them up like a sponge and take on her own self-hate and feelings of inadequacy.
The solution is to set limits on what you "take in" coming from her. If she says some crap about Martha Stewart, decide whether to feel bad about this projection or whether to let it slide off you because it's so stupid. Realize she is talking about how she feels inside. Also realize that if you bring this to her attention by asking her to admit that it's a projection, it won't work. She'll project even more.
Some people are very primitive and infantile. All they can do is project. Our reaction can be to develop thick skins against the projections, and find strategies on how to set limits with the person.
My experience with this was when my N-FIL said, sadly, to my H, "I was hoping you'd make something of your life, but you didn't listen to me, and you never did..." My H and I knew he was talking about himself. H has made something of his life. It hurt my H that his father discounted his accomplishments and they weren't even on his father's radar screen. But we understood that his father was a nut.
bunny
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Hi Bunny,
I do understand what you're saying and I thank you for expressing it so clearly; clear thinking has been a rare commodity in my experience. And I know that her projections are, as you said, shallow and distorted. But this is the part that gives me trouble:
Our reaction can be to develop thick skins against the projections, and find strategies on how to set limits with the person.
For myself that almost, but doesn't quite work. I agree on the setting limits part; that hasn't been easy, but I think I'm finally getting there. It's the thick skin part that doesn't sit well with me. If we succeed in developing thick enough skins isn't that just conceding that either it's washing our hands of the matter, or playing the game on their terms?
I guess what I'm asking is how to deal in a humane manner with someone who's self absorbed and not grounded in reality, and who never will be. This is the special circumstance of the elderly, parental N's. My instinct is to wash my hands of it and let her sink or swim, which is what she always told me I must do. What differentiates narcissism from self preservation at all costs and how do you know when it's self-preservation or just plain ol' self-interest? If I turn my back on what my NM is going through, how does that make me any different than the NM?
Thanks for listening while I beat this subject to death :?
Singer
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I agree on the setting limits part; that hasn't been easy, but I think I'm finally getting there. It's the thick skin part that doesn't sit well with me. If we succeed in developing thick enough skins isn't that just conceding that either it's washing our hands of the matter, or playing the game on their terms?
I see developing a thick skin as a defense against infantile attacks. I'm not talking about abandoning the N. Just making an effort not to take their mean statements personally. This isn't playing the game on their terms, because they don't want me to develop a thick skin. They want me to be thin-skinned.
I guess what I'm asking is how to deal in a humane manner with someone who's self absorbed and not grounded in reality, and who never will be. This is the special circumstance of the elderly, parental N's. My instinct is to wash my hands of it and let her sink or swim, which is what she always told me I must do.
She told you to let her sink or swim??
I've had some experience with elderly N in-laws (both deceased, thankfully). We had to make decisions about how much time, energy, money, sacrifice would be made for them. Once that decision was made, then we strategized (more than once) how to create the least amount of wear-and-tear on ourselves. We had to go to A LOT OF THERAPY to vent about these people. We had to come up with new strategies to deal with new situations (hospitalizations, illnesses, injuries, paying for caregivers). It's like any stressful project. One makes a lot of pragmatic decisions and finds ways to deal with the difficulties. I think it's nearly impossible to deal with an elderly N-parent alone. It kind of requires a support system (imo).
bunny
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She told you to let her sink or swim??
Oops, sorry Bunny. I wasn't too clear there. She has always told me that I must either sink or swim. Or in her words, I made my own bed and now I must lie in it. Of course, when I am lying in it quite comfortably she's furious that I'm not feeling sufficient guilt and inadequacy.
Thanks for your ideas on this. You always give me something to think about.
Singer
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She has always told me that I must either sink or swim. Or in her words, I made my own bed and now I must lie in it. Of course, when I am lying in it quite comfortably she's furious that I'm not feeling sufficient guilt and inadequacy.
Thanks for clarifying. Too bad she didn't give you permission to let her sink or swim. If she's furious when you don't feel guilty, this is where I would make huge efforts not to feel guilty and give HER this projection BACK. When someone wants you to feel a certain way, it's a sure sign that you need to block that feeling. They want you to contain/express their own garbage! It's not easy to feel okay when there's pressure to feel bad, but if you make the effort, you will see a change in the dynamics.
bunny
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So I said,
(approx) " You and I have serious issues which we will probably never resolve and we can not live together." I fell apart on the weekend. I don't know if it was the strain of such truthfulness. She seems absolutely fine -
((Les)) I didn't get a chance to respond when I read this, but have time today - Good for you, for behing honest about your feelings in saying what you did to your NM. No wonder you were drained after that visit. It takes a huge amount of energy preparing to visit the NM, going over all the scenarios that might happen, practicing snappy retorts to have them at the ready, then trying to remember any of them when the NM says something from out of left field.... I guess I am trying to say "I know what you mean" and no wonder you fell apart, just as I did after my pennance on the weekend. It takes every single ounce of energy, mental gymnastics, correct posture and perfect facial expressions, not to even mention planning what to wear.....I could go on and on with the preparations required before a visit, not to mention the torture of trying to stay one step ahead of the NM, always trying to do the right thing out of respect, and then, when it is all over, there inevitably are wounds, emotional scabs that have been ripped off.....
I was sooo drained, and I feel for you and what you are going through with Herself these days. I am learning from you, and today I hope you can feel some strength from me. I have my zip back today, so I can share some energy with you and everyone here, at last. That is the only good news I can share at the moment, but let's keep propping one another up - it will all be worth it in the end, someday.
And the worst part is the truth in your last comment, for it is the same with my NM : They are Just Fine! Mine doesn't even know there is a problem! She just happens to have a difficult child :roll: !!!
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Hi Only Me and thanks again for your support. I just read your post about visiting your NM and spending the next day in bed. So I feel like I can admit to that too. I can't believe it really. Like someone just emptied the tank, siphoned off every ounce of energy. My H was quite worried and asked kindly if I was still talking to the board! On these days I can't find my way to the board. Just this second I got an image of someone rocking and moaning. I don't do that but maybe that's what being in bed is about.
I have often thought I could and would gladly care for a NICE old woman. I could do it every day I think, no problem. But this woman robs me - robs me of what.? Must start putting on more of that thick skin Bunny talks about.
Les
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My GP was the first one to pick up on the possibility that many of my health issues were manifestations of an abusive upbringing, and he recommended a book. I remember that he hesitated and said that he might be taking a chance in prescribing that I read "People of the Lie, the hope for healing human evil" by M.Scott Peck, MD.
I thought I'd mention that book here, because it was the very first step in my journey towards the Truth. As I read the book, I saw myself in so many pages, and I think the thing that startled me the most is that there is a possibility that not only is there N in the world, but there is also evil. And, Les, sometimes I have even wondered if one of the reasons that being with my NM makes me physically sick is that maybe there is an aura of evil around her, and I bring some of it home with me. Not to worry, I am completely sane, but the power to destroy the essence of who I am seems totally out of proportion to the little old woman who stands before me. And her eyes are like snake eyes, small, cold, calculating, nasty eyes that bore right through me. I guess I am always searching for an understanding of the extraordinary power that some of these N's seem to possess, and how that little old N woman can suck the very life from this strong, intelligent, kind, loving woman. My MD also warned me that when an evil soul senses that the victim is getting stronger, that the vengeance can come back ten-fold. Anyway, the book is an interesting read, and like I said, I saw myself in it time and time again, and it was helpful in opening my eyes, and helpful in starting me on this healing journey.
Just sharing all of this in hopes that it might help.
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I can identify with all that's been said here regarding aging N parents. Somebody mentioned the book Why Is It Always About You? Great book. The author talks about how N characteristics increase at warp speed with the aging proceess 1)because they feel their all important control slipping away, and 2) because their body and mind are betraying them, no longer the healthy, sexy, strong and superior specimens they've always believed themselves to be. I mean, a look in the mirror can be a reality check for any of us, but especially so if you've always considered yourself above the laws of nature that apply to "average people".
With my mother, it was like she always wore a mask of some restraint and socally appropriate pretense, and as she aged that mask slowly melted away, leaving nothing but the horrible truth of who she really is revealed underneath.
Stillstanding
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Hi Stillstanding
That is a really good book, too. Now that you have discovered all of us, and N, you'll find yourself drawn to these types of books - and isn't it wonderfol to learn that You are not the Crazy One?! My NMom is 85 but thinks that loads of makeup and blingbling will take 20yrs off her appearance, and she is spending tons o bucks on expensive clothes - all a desperate effort to hold onto her appearance, for in her world Appearance Is Everything. She shudders when I arrive in my jeans, or when dressed up, in my jean skirt. She has often shoved money into my hand begging me to go out and buy something decent to wear! Trust me, I look just fine, but not up to her lofty imaginary standards. Just like Seeker was saying in another thread - it is all about appearance, snobbery, being noticed by the 'right' people, rubbing shoulders with the mucky-mucks, etc ... What a waste of energy! I think that is why I try to see the Good in people, way inside people, not what they are wearing, or the size of their house. I love nice things, but it is not who I am.
Geeze, there I go, starting on a rant!
With my mother, it was like she always wore a mask of some restraint and socally appropriate pretense,
My NMom is still holding onto that mask, never laughing, never even smiling - it causes those little wrinkle lines around the mouth and eyes, she says! Well, give me a face with laugh lines, any day!
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I think I told you guys about my moms recent bout with plastic surgery. It is embarrassing that she looks the same age as I am but there is a 20 year difference. NO - she looks younger than I am!
All to keep that edge..................................yuck! It's embarrassing to have a mother that looks better than you do!
Kelly
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Hi Only Me
Have you read M Scott Pecks’s other book: ‘The Road Less Travelled’? Might help you think about yourself more, rather than in relation to your mom (why should it always be about them?!) Focusing on the external ‘evil’ helps in learning to recognise it and deflect it (rather than allow it to affect you), but it might not help you much in your self-awareness. Accentuate the positive, kind of thing!
Is your MD religious? Just wondering. In my experience doctors don’t usually talk about ‘evil souls’. I don’t believe in ‘evil’ as a thing in itself. I think people choose to do good or evil/wicked acts. The acts themselves are good or bad, not the person.
I can choose to see some of my mother’s actions (actions arising out of hate, fear, envy, shame, selfishness) as simply evil, or I can see those actions as coming from a very sick person who deserves pity.
But the first priority is to protect myself. I know I don’t want to be rude, cruel or heartless to my mother – otherwise I’d tell her my truth and let her think of that whatever she wants to, without worrying about it. I know if I communicate with her, I’m going to allow myself to get drawn into her world, her version of truth. I find her world upsetting; she can’t see that and I won’t accept her as she is, because it hurts me. I can’t not see her as my mother.
So that’s not good for me right now. For me it’s easier to not talk very much and maintain a big emotional distance (the emotional distance is my choice and my action; there’s no emotion coming my way from her). A bit like dealing with someone you don’t like at work – do the minimum and don’t take anything personally. Easy to say, very very difficult to do.
And it’s so difficult trying to condition myself not to keep looking for that scrap of ‘love’. Like a dependant eager puppy, ready to jump through a hoop for just the slightest promise of a ‘well done’. Yuk! And while I know in my head it’s never going to happen, my heart hasn’t quite caught up yet. I dunno. There seems to be a little stone of sadness resting there, making itself comfortable. I guess I just need to accept that little stone as part of me.
Anyway, I went off on one there, it might make sense, might not, whatever, just Thursday thoughts….cheers, P
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Hi Portia, Oh Wise One!
Thank you for taking the time to respond to the Evil issue, and I Hear You. I appreciate your perspective - what a healthy perspective. Somehow I get sidetracked trying to help and fix and analyze my NM to such an extent that I forget about taking care of myself! Guess that has been drilled into me, so it is my first reaction. But, I'll be reading your post over and over until it sinks in! (I'm not sure if my MD is religious or not, because he only spoke in generalities about evil, not religion - but at least he recognized the abuse symnptoms, and it was a way to start peeling off the layers to get at the Truth, and I'll always be grateful to him for that, for it has helped save my life, in so many ways.)
I have The Road Less Travelled sitting on the shelf, beside the other book, but have not read it yet - will start it today! Thanks for the nudge.
I seem to be strong until a scrap of something like Love is tossed my way by Herself, and then I hold onto it in hopes that This Time Things Will Be Different - but, of course, it never is. I try to cope with it all, much the way you do, and I think we're on the right track, under the circumstances. It helps to feel like I'm moving forward, now, not just treading water trying to keep from drowning.
I appreciate your Thursday Thoughts! I'm all the better for them.
ps: Hey Les, Great Thread! Thanks! I have a feeling this one will keep going forever, or until there are no longer really old N's in the world, whichever comes first! :lol:
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Gosh you guys, I can sure relate to that "sucked dry" feeling and having to go to bed after a visit with the Nfolks. I really feel for you - and I thought I was the only one who got the life sucked out of them by her parents. I thought I was just odd, or something. When I used to live near them, I was required to visit often (often = way more than I wanted to, and way less than they demanded). The 2 days or so before a planned visit, my eye would start twitching. And generally didn't stop until the visit was over. I'd always make sure to visit on a Saturday because I always knew I'd be completely useless the next day and I didn't want to be completely useless at work ;-)
Every required visit I'd arrive as late as I thought I could possibly get away with, because anytime I'd try to get up and say well, this has been fun but I think I'll be leaving they'd find some obnoxious reason to keep me there (I used to have a real hard time getting away from them once I was there and I couldn't seem to combat that - but I did work on that and its not such an issue anymore). Anyway, I'd be about ready to lay down on the floor at their house and go to sleep, I'd be so drained, and I KNOW they could see that, and still they would refuse to "let" me leave, not until every ounce of life force had been sucked out, I guess. And once I'd successfully get away, I wouldn't feel any relief, because I knew I was just going to have to go through this same game again sooner than I'd like. I'd get home, go straight to bed, and likely sleep till noon the next day, and be all out of sorts for the rest of the day.
They ruined more of my weekends than I care to admit :-(
Now, as it happens, I no longer live near them, but have agreed to come visit for Thanksgiving weekend. I won't be staying with them (this is bothering them greatly). There is NO WAY I could survive that. But just the idea of 3 .... days.... in... a....row. I think I'm going to have to buy alcohol for my hotel room :-). And yesterday, my eye started twitching. Sigh.
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les, only me, and others, I'm so glad I found all of you. Your visits with your N parents sound just like mine. I'm sometimes too whacked out to move for about 24 hours. After one particularly difficult confrontation I got a bladder infection within 24 hours. Coincidence? I think not.
OM, you mentioned evil. There are times when I visit them when I can almost palpate the evil in the room. YOu mentioned your mother's countenance..beady eyes, etc. My mother's expression comes closest to the Grinch...heavy lidded, calculating, unsettling.
One idea I've encountered is to try to remain pliable around them so that I don't snap like a rigid twig in the breeze. My mother is no breeeze, she's a damned hurricane. I try not to be on guard, therefore, but to simply remember just who they are and what they're capable of.
And finally, yes, yes, yes, I hear those of you who keep looking for a scrap of affection that proves we were beloved children after all. Hope springs eternal, I guess. Lately I've tried to counter with this by concentrating on the healthy love I do have in my life , trying not to yearn for that which I can never have. I have found love in my life that is given so easily and unconditionally, it makes me realize how hard I've always worked at trying to earn and deserve and maintain my parent's love. It's crazy making!
Thanks again to all of you out there who hear care and understand.
Stillstanding
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I really like these images -bending in the breeze and swinging that cape around.
Got gorred a bit today but I do believe I am learning how dance away from the horns. As we were rolling along the highway I thought, hmmm, this seems to be going ok, but I wonder if I could just throw this car into park and leap out! Used some Lamaze breathing techniques and focused intently on the tail lights in front!
Oh Frustrated - I'm so sorry about that Inspector Cluzo eye of yours! It did make me laugh though! Reminds me of a book -"When the body says No!
Today's conversation: NM: "Well, my teeth cleaning didn't hurt as much this time. They didn't have to scrape as much because they have this special purple light and high pressure water.... (10 minutes later) The dentist is such a dear. He rushed in and said how delighted he was to see me and that he always has so much fun when I come, He said I have such a great sense of humour... blah, blah, (10 more minutes) So they used a laser and some purple light so it didn't hurt very much and they didn't have to do so much.. ( she can't think of the word) so the daughter speaks...here it comes) "Scraping?" Now, you would think this might be a fair guess. But I am able to predict with much certainty now what comes next and it did. NM: "Oh No! They certainly had to do a lot of scraping!" I would say this is dementia, but if it is she has had it all her life. Ah me. I don't entirely GET IT but at least I SEE IT and let it blow on by now.
Let's go over to Seeker's and get some cookies!
Les
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I'm way behind in reading posts, but want to jump in and touch base!
That dentist story reminded me of a funny episode on my last visit with NM when I took an old friend with me. When we got out of the car, NM threw open her arms to greet my friend, saying that she was like NM's second daughter, drama, tears, drama, gag gag gag. My friend was with me to watch my back, and didn't get sucked in. Anyhow, later while we three were having tea at the kitchen table, NM was talking on and on and then pointed to my friend and said something like "...just like The Girl said this morning..." She called her supposedly special new Second Daughter "The Girl" to her face, at the table! "The Girl!!" Oh, yes, how special to be treated like another daughter! Oh, yes, it looks like dementia, but I fear it is just full blown N.
It really is amazing to watch the NPD in action, now that I know what I am seeing. Amazing and very very scary.
Thank gawd we're in this together, Dear Kindred Spirits. What a comfort to not be walking this path alone, anymore. :wink:
(I'd like Oatmeal Raisin...!)
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"The Girl" - I can see how that fits N-vision - no real sense of the other as an important distinct individual with a name!
Good to see you on the board OnlyMe. I was a little worried. My god, it's true, I DO worry too much. But still, it's good to hear about your strategies for dealing with NM. Need to keep one step ahead!
Les
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Hi Les,
Thanks for worrying - I was worrying a bit about you at the same time, with your NM and the SW and all the changes that might be happening with that situation. Tell you what - even when I'm feeling bogged down, I'll be sure to look for you here! Sometimes I grow weary trying to get through the mental gymnastics on some of the other threads and before I reply to something, I just log off. Otherwise I'd be jumping into the middle of each and every thread trying to help 'fix' things, as I'm wont to do! (Part of that 'always being to blame for everything wrong in the world, even the weather', and then standing on my head trying to change it!!).
I'm off to a meeting, but, like I said somewhere else, I'm here for the long haul - okay?! Hope I can help you as much as you help me - hopefully it will all even out over time. :wink: There MUST be a light at the end of the tunnel. :roll: I can almost see it from here!
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Hi Only Me
I know what you mean- weary is the word. Good to know you'll keep reporting in!
Les