Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sKePTiKal on February 15, 2011, 07:45:47 AM
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Here I go again! LOL...
So, I been thinkin'... and it looks like a couple of you are thinking some of the same things... and I could babble a whole bunch and not make a whole lot of sense, but I think it's time to try something different. A different approach.
So, what is the difference between "us" - collectively - who've been so intensely affected by awful parents, evil spouses, and the infuriating bosses that we call Ns... and people who aren't as affected by them? The people who can interact with them, work with them, and don't ever waver in their sense of self? The people who don't second-guess themselves and can easily say of the N: they're messed up and just walk away... and they never "get any on them" in their dealings with them???
We've been hurt to the core and hobbled from learning to walk on eggshells... we've been so busy trying to dodge the next radioactive emotional grenade... that I think we missed out on parts of developing a healthy ego (in the Freudian sense) along the way. Hell, I'm not sure I even know what "healthy ego" is... or what it might offer one in the way of "immunity" to the interpersonal depradations that I know it's not possible avoid or hide from or completely remove from one's life without finding a cave and becoming a total hermit. Like it or not... these emotional zombies exist... and while I'm not interested in co-existing with them any longer than is absolutely necessary I do need to learn whatever it is can get me through the occasional encounter - centered, calm, unshaken & unscathed... and then go on to the next thing my attention needs to or wants to focus on. Constant battle readiness or seige uses too much energy at my age...
So, I'm calling on all you creative folk & deep thinkers here to help collaboratively design a "healthy ego"... maybe "solid sense of self" is another way to say it that means the same thing. What are those characteristics? Can we come up with examples? What do you think is important to developing a healthy ego... your positive sense of self? This can't be a "one size fits all" definition nor a frankenstein of everything patched together... but maybe more like a buffet where everyone's plate might hold different amounts and combinations of things...
I mean, I see that we're all struggling with this - each in our own ways. And yet there are people in our lives that we know well, for whom this kind of thing is not a struggle at all. When I asked myself what the difference between me and my hubs is - for instance - the only thing that returns is that he has a stronger sense of himself - healthy ego in other words - and so his interactions with the very same people who drive me into coniption fits hardly bother him. Maybe there's more to it than that... I don't know. But it seemed like this might make a good exercise - thought project - for us to explore.
So, who wants to play?
Here's one thing I've run across that fits here... I don't have to apologize for asking for or stating what I want/don't want. My asking or making a statement doesn't constitute a boundary violation, every single time in every single instance. Regardless of the Ns of this world think, you know?
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:D
I want to play!
A healthy ego is probably not too sensitive, since life is insane. It helps not to see that (to have self-serving goals and so on). A 'healthy' ego probably works best for the reproduction of the individual (to the detriment of others, unless they help the individual in that 'altruistic' way). Okay....
A healthy mind depends upon....trust in self. Trust that reality is what we perceive (and be pretty accurate about it!). The ability to hold the centre when under attack. To know when to move away from real danger, but not be unnaturally afraid of it. Oh that whole bunch of stuff. Examples? That seems almost impossible without being in someone else's head. Actually a woman I read on twitter seems to have one, come to think of it.
Self trust.
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CB
Thing is, some people are very aware of the hum of tension, and some are not. So maybe the reason we struggle so is because of the awareness. I am not sure exactly what a healthy ego is, but I doubt sincerely that the majority of people have it.
Rings very true with me. First part, being aware of tension, oh my, in November I felt myself being strung / stretched out by interactions between other people (who i care about). One person was bullying, telling the other person what to feel, what not to feel....shouting at them, finger-pointing...and all in the name of doing what was 'good' for the recipient .. or so it seemed to me. While I kept my boundaries (it wasn't me being shouted at), the 'tension' was awful. I just showed and told the recipient that what they felt and thought was okay, more than okay. When 'tensions' are high, some people react by turning into complete inconsiderate control freaks...I should know. Okay that's not everyday tension, but I feel more aware of everyday tension than some seem to (but who knows?). I guess that's one 'benefit' of being trained that way and of hypervigilance...but it really does have benefits too. Knowing when to run, when to help, when to shout, when to back off...perhaps just that little bit quicker. Survival/acting.
On the other hand i can tell when people are speaking through the child/parent in their heads. It's as obvious as day.
I think it's doubtful too that the majority of people have healthy minds, are centred etc. The majority of people get by. Boundaries are key, knowing where I start and finish. Looking back, not having that sense seems ludicrous and insane. I'm losing touch with what I used to be. Sometimes I try to remember exactly how x moment felt, and it's more difficult. Which is interesting...but not very!
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PR:
The people who can interact with them, work with them, and don't ever waver in their sense of self? The people who don't second-guess themselves and can easily say of the N: they're messed up and just walk away... and they never "get any on them" in their dealings with them?
CB: Just because someone says I am the problem, doesnt mean I am--doesnt mean I need to accept their analysis and start "fixing" myself.
Guest: The ability to hold the centre when under attack. To know when to move away from real danger, but not be unnaturally afraid of it.
I love all of these comments. Great topic, PR.
PR's quote brought immediately to mind for me: "role models". For me, seeing responses like that, in a situation that for me triggers "unnatural fear" (thanks Guest) ... is something I could try to use intentionally as a guidepost. Maybe what will help is if I tell myself while noticing, "I can work on underreacting like that, too. I will start by trying to release my reaction in this moment, whatever it is, more quickly. Maybe next time I'll have less of a reaction."
The trick would be to not shame myself for not being like them, but just to take their example as a helpful gift. An appearance of something in nature (human reactions to each other are just another thing in nature, after all) that I can contemplate. Would I feel inferior to a gazelle because I was a rabbit? No. I'd watch it, take it in.
CB, oh I hear you. Harsh critics are everywhere. I think part of the Nsurvivor brainwashing is to believe that a bold negative observation by definition must be more true (because it sounds "braver" and in this culture we worship power and force)...than a soft positive. When it may really be just: 1) bold, and 2) negative.
I don't know if this has any applicability to building a strong ego, but I found myself telling my T yesterday morning that over the weekend I'd realized that one of the drives I believe is behind seeking therapy, counseling and support...is the need to be assured that one is a good person.
My failures and heartbreaks sowed doubt. Because "happy" (again the culture) looks more "right". So if I have been in that much pain, or have been victimized, I must've...deserved it. A healthy ego, I think, would toss that off like rainwater off an umbrella, and not have to ponder whether I am good.
For some reason that exchange really helped. Something eased greatly. I have been taking all the stresses and fears in my current situation and personalizing them, as evidence of failure. They really are not. I was diagnosed with ADD last year. I lived for decades not understanding why my approach to things was chaotic. I think some of my "unnatural fear" came from that. Too much was inexplicable. And others didn't seem as hampered as I felt.
Going forward, I can just do the best I can and instead of seeing that as a meaningless statement, realize it's a healthy one and I can celebrate small milestones.
I think a lot of having a healthy ego is building the habit of being on one's own side, without the eternal inner-UN that tries to be all things to all people and create perfect justice in all situations.
xo
Hops
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Something I've been working on: having sympathy and compassion for other people and their problems, without feeling (or being made to feel) that I am somehow responsible for their well being. Maybe this is another aspect of having and recognizing healthy boundaries.
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Yes, I think not having strong boundaries is mutually exclusive with a strong sense of self (I just tortured some syntax - sigh)... and there are many "root causes" of that boundariless-ness. I like what guest said... about being being sensitive to a sort of interpersonal "frequency" - be it tension or otherwise... I can relate to that! And maybe it does take what was once a "problem" - hypervigilance - and turn it to a positive use - protecting one's calm. I can see it also over-riding boundaries, sometimes, too... and even barraging a sense of self. (thinking repetive, ongoing violence or aggression...)
Empathy - yes SL - we feel for others without getting "blown away"... and try to help or at least console or comfort. Without this capacity, how can we be whole humans? (on the other hand, I think I can also understand "injuries" to empathy that can heal)...
... the need to be assured that one is a good person.
Hops, this jumped out at me... I've been there too. And I think that even something this basic... might be absolutely one of the major first building blocks... for sense of self. I'm gonna ponder on this a bit more... it kinda strikes me as a neon arrow waving at me - and yelling HEY - OVER HERE - YOU GOTTA CHECK THIS OUT... coz there's more than face value here.
Oh... and teartracks? When you get over here? Yeah - I think what you said about the system and entropy do fit! I get what you're saying... I think...
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Hops
The trick would be to not shame myself for not being like them, but just to take their example as a helpful gift.
Very very difficult and awkward and excrutiating.....................but..............do-able.
Hell, what's the alternative? :D Oh I know what the alternative is and it stinks. Not somewhere one can stay i think.
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A healthy mind depends upon....trust in self. Trust that reality is what we perceive (and be pretty accurate about it!).
Well, here's another piece I'm picking up off the buffet as "important", to go along with Hops' "good person"... for my plate. They might even be intertwined, interdependent... but I've gotta ramble my way to these - just thinking out loud here... taking a detour back again to boundaries.
I hadn't even HEARD of boundaries - in all my reading, "seeking", and oh yeah, I lived with a psychologist for a couple of years; off & on... until I started therapy. At the same time, my neighbor gave me/Twiggy the book "I and Thou"... and I read and got the rudimentary gist of it at 12. Buber talks about this as if it's a mystical, spiritual concept or ideal. It was the closest explanation of what transpired between my mom - and her "targets"; including me. (tried to reread it recently and just couldn't)
Well, in practice... boundaries are quite different. But perhaps Buber was right about the loftiness of boundaries, when considering the value of them. There has to be an acknowledgement of "this is me" and "this is you" between two people - no matter how unspoken or unconscious this acknowledgement is. Strangers on the street acknowledge this basic fact in allowing each other an amount of physical space to "be" in. The more intimate the relationship, the more important that acknowledgement is, I *think*... but when there's an "us"... well, things aren't so clear anymore but there is some room for "error".
When that acknowledgement is MISSING, inconstant, and/or unreliable - let's say in an insecure or disturbed attachment situation (or living with an N) - one is left with a problem to solve: what did I do wrong? what can I do to reacquire that acknowledgement? And if this problem doesn't get solved or solutions remain temporary, one-off kinds of things... when the goal posts keep moving... this turns into a self-reflection... self-judgement... self-analysis and image and... of "I" must be a failure; "I" must be a bad person - weak person - not fit to take up space on the planet, much less ask for, work for, try to be - acquire - X Y or Z. [I'm speculating... not stating fact here]
Giving and receiving that positive kind of acknowledgement is a kind of emotional, nurturing equation I think. And when it fails repeatedly, or in a huge significant way, or for a long, long time... that emotional understanding of oneself above... the fear that one is a bad person starts to feel like it might be true - external evidence of empathy, compassion, and long-standing relationships to the contrary. The fear that it might be true... is self-doubt. The repetition of failure to acquire that acknowledgement - emotionally - turns into lack of trust of self. And all this alchemy is going on emotionally... not always noticed by one's rational mind.
So, OK - maybe just like one needs a plate at my metaphorical buffet... maybe the plate is like paying attention to these emotional patterns and undercurrents, making them more conscious, and then acknowledging the real need to have someone acknowledge oneself ENOUGH... to finally feel "safe" enough to trust one's own perception... oneself... and to stop questioning if one is a good person or not; because one is as good as one is - in the moment. (I think we all have the capacity to be lots of things we normally aren't, when the situation demands it.)
Maybe the buffet needs to be followed with a dessert course - paired with an appropriate wine of course - of compassion and empathy for ourselves as "everyman" - 'coz we're all just doing the best we can???
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I think just letting negative or undesirable thoughts go by, without giving them any energy, is part of a healthy ego.
Everyone must experience negative thoughts, but some people choose not to focus on them.
They move on, as a matter of habit.
Lighter
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Yes Amber (all of it)...except....we're not all everyman, no, really, we aren't and I'm not doing an us and them, oh wait, i might be! Actually, yes I am. There comes a time to draw a line and say, no: they did not just do the best they could. They chose to do the worse they could. Okay, maybe they couldn't have done much otherwise, but they nevertheless did it.
This thread isn't about 'them' though is it?
Some 'negative' thoughts and feelings - like guilt, and real fear - serve a very useful function.
I do agree with the bulk of your post Amber, I'm just not there at the moment.
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Since I've been officially dubbed the List Queen in my house... let's see what we've got so far:
healthy boundaries (ie. - strong, but open to connecting with others)
self-trust
a general inner sense of oneself as a "good person" (ie. - we make mistakes, but not intentionally on purpose try to hurt, cheat or make someone else miserable; we apologize when our wrongs are pointed out to us)
and I think I can sum up my last rambling post as
self-awareness; self-attunement; self-acknowledgement - synonyms maybe? or 3 completely separate things that are usually co-present with each other?
What about sense of humor? The ability to laugh at oneself... and one's own BS (y'all know I'm full of it!)?
I think Lighter's suggestion has merit, too - about not dwelling on, obsessing, or getting tangled up in negative thoughts. She's right, you know... we all have negative thoughts... everyday...
I guess, based only on my own experience, I've noticed that there is a big difference between the time I used to let them take up so much of my time and energy and attention - because of a whole pile of radioactive, toxic waste that I hadn't really addressed... when those thoughts are the predominant "reality" one is working with... it kinda precludes the possibility of "healthy ego". And whatever that phase of healing could be called, it's almost a pre-requisite to being able to let the negative go later on...
now, I feel there's more of a balance... somehow... and also way more "space" where all that stuff used to be in my head (for me, my head's almost the same as my reality - I also include feelings now & I do allow for the universe to insert whatever into that reality; I like surprises and randomness and variety)... space for other kinds of things & new people... whatever they might be.
But... until Lighter said something... I hadn't really looked at this. Noticed. And of course, my old habits are really entrenched... and they haven't completely "let go" yet. But I wonder... would it be possible for someone to hang on to negativity and still be defined as having a healthy ego? or are these mutally exclusive? [Digression warning... does the answer to that question really matter to our design process?]
Here's something to ponder: what about relationships? Is it absolutely necessary for a determination of "healthy" to have relationships? How many? What kind? What is the range? Or is this completely personal and individual - even to the extreme of someone being classified as "healthy", yet living with almost no relationships?
Do we need to put relationships on the buffet list?
OH and I just remembered a topic Leah talked about a lot - authenticity... do we need some of that, too?
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When I wrote the last post above, I was frustrated about a particular 3D subject and I think it shows (a lot of displacement going on though in what I said).
Lighter, what you said:
I think just letting negative or undesirable thoughts go by, without giving them any energy, is part of a healthy ego.
Everyone must experience negative thoughts, but some people choose not to focus on them.
They move on, as a matter of habit.
sounds too much like the emotional bloodsuckers to me. I think it depends on what you mean by negative thoughts. If I think to myself "I really screwed up there" I don't want to move on, I want to learn not to screw up like that again. But there are negative thoughts that do no good at all (I remember them)...but: if I hadn't have thought about the thoughts, surely they'd still be there?
You know, I've probably got caught up in something here that has zero to do with what's being talked about. I'm thinking too much about a (sad, frustrating) 3D reality and it's so far away from 'healthy' that it's affecting my focus. Hmmmmm. I need to change my focus; see you later.
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I think we all need to be known and accepted, as our authentic selves, on some level in order to be healthy.
If we're spending a lot of time figuring out how to "act" in order to be accepted, then we're in some kind of trouble.
Everyone wants to have what's most important about them acknowledged, not challenged and certainly not threatened.
This goes for the N's, us and every other PD person walking the earth.
We all want to belong and feel secure.
It's what everyone has in common, and we all need some kind of relationship/contact with others.
I guess maybe there is no "them" and "us."
They're "us", but something's broken. Something's arrested inside. They believe they must take and control in order to be accepted and be loved.
I guess a healthy ego can step back, and observe life, without feeling the need to control everything and everyone.
A heatlhy ego can accept reality and roll with the punches.
A healthy ego lets go of the past, and embraces today, not the future.
Very interesting thread, Amber.
When I wrote the last post above, I was frustrated about a particular 3D subject and I think it shows (a lot of displacement going on though in what I said).
Lighter, what you said:
I think just letting negative or undesirable thoughts go by, without giving them any energy, is part of a healthy ego.
Everyone must experience negative thoughts, but some people choose not to focus on them.
They move on, as a matter of habit.
sounds too much like the emotional bloodsuckers to me. I think it depends on what you mean by negative thoughts. If I think to myself "I really screwed up there" I don't want to move on, I want to learn not to screw up like that again. But there are negative thoughts that do no good at all (I remember them)...but: if I hadn't have thought about the thoughts, surely they'd still be there?
You know, I've probably got caught up in something here that has zero to do with what's being talked about. I'm thinking too much about a (sad, frustrating) 3D reality and it's so far away from 'healthy' that it's affecting my focus. Hmmmmm. I need to change my focus; see you later.
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Guest:
I understand the struggle to determine what's worrying and hanging on to negative thoughts, and what's productive, relationship building energy.
Lighter
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Listening to the voice within.
In retrospect, if I were to pinpoint just one thing that made me prey to Ns & diminished my sense of self, it was my failure to listen to the voice within. This above all, to thine own self be true.
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Agree with Ann. Listening to myself.....that's about it, really. <neutral>
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Yes... like "authenticity"... listening to that inner voice... is dependent on having, maintaining a good relationship with one's self. (Self-trust is also based on this... hmmm.)
It is too much of a generalization to propose that having a healthy ego = having a good relationship with one's self??
I got to looking at yesterday's list...
healthy boundaries
self-trust
a general inner sense of oneself as a "good person"
self-awareness; self-attunement; self-acknowledgement
listening to inner voice
... and healthy relationship with self seems to sum up the kinds of things we're throwing at the wall to see if they stick. Could it really be that simple? In principle or theory that is! Not so simple in practice...
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I'm ok you're ok? :D
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Maybe I'm OK - outer self and I'm OK - inner self... and they're not fighting each other so much...
LOL!!! :D
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Keeping short accounts and NEVER charging more than 0% interest?
tt
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2 x nice 8)
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Dang it... I lost my reply; try again.
tt - YES. This needs to go on the list!!
People who "keep accounts" - or keep score of what is owed them - are completely missing the point. Giving is free and doesn't expect anything in return. The giving all by itself is the "gift" returned.
Whether it's emotional stuff or who picks up the tab... a healthy ego can give without keeping score and can be comfortable receiving, too. MIL really drove this lesson home for me. We had a "giving" competition... I wouldn't let her "give up" living HER life independently, at whatever level she could physically manage... and she wouldn't let me get "stuck" on the negative wavelength or feel like I was an "outsider".
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she wouldn't let me get "stuck" on the negative wavelength or feel like I was an "outsider"
What a lovely, lovely woman she was, Amber.
I am so glad you had the kindness of healthy mother love from her.
Reminds me, oddly, of what I often felt around some folks who were very religious--but who showed it in the way they interacted lovingly (not in preaching about sin and stain and subordination, etc.). I could not have shared their lives or their beliefs, but some of them darn sure got the Golden Rule.
I have a few memories with gentle relatives or neighbors who participated in churches/faiths I couldn't swallow, but the ones who really got it, were like sitting in sunshine, in that peaceful kitchen I wrote about for Bear...
Kind women. A sweetness. A reflexive, non-neurotic nurturing. An instinctive sense that what you put on a wound is gentleness, not force. Not fury, and not "systems". Just gentle presence.
You had that time with her, for a reason. And I am so glad.
love,
Hops
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Self care and boundaries are the thing, ((Amber.))
So glad your hubby is supportive and on board for this.
Good luck.
Lighter
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Good luck Amber. Hang on to those voicemail messages from him. You never know, they may be useful. I hope it doesn't come to that, for you, but hey, it won't hurt to keep them, if you can. Take care.
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(((Amber and family)))
Your D's so lucky to have your support and wisdom.
Please be careful.
Lighter
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Amber,
I am so very sorry that this has happened in your grandchildren's lives.
I cannot imagine the pain -- rippling in all directions.
I know your D and grandchildren are incredibly lucky to have your help.
We'll help you hold on to YOU.
Sending peace, love,
Hops
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thanks - what would I do without y'all?
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If I had given Mud a dollar for every time I've thought that, Amber (Mud would have quite a few dollars).
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Amber,
So sorry to hear all this. You are a strong & wise woman. And, yes: self care & boundaries.
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Child protection.
I don't think i need to say more?
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Ditto Guest.
What he did to your grandson is serious abuse and people should be arrested for that.
I'm so sorry, Amber.
Words fail.
Hops
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Amber
In this country, in your position, I might 'warn' my D that if she continues to live like this (with abusive men) that she risks having her kids, your grandchildren, taken into care. I have no idea how realistic that might be, even here. Probably not very realistic. But it damn well should be.
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Amber,
I'm so so mad right now. So F'ing mad. I can't imagine what you are feeling. I was once victim with my own H. I can only imagine what my family felt like.
Truly I was more bruised in my brain then on my body.
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My S came to speak to me and I hit enter. I don't think she can think clearly now. All that matter's is she has run with her children. I"m sorry for your D and your GC and I'm sorry for you Amber. I just can't imagine how you are feeling.
I guess I could never imagine how my own M and Sis felt but my BIL and cousin's did go to my ex and tell him..You put your hands on her....we put our hands on you.
Pick on Us. You pick on her and you picked on us.
I was all along trying to fight for myself (without fighting) but with an abuser...Sometimes you just have to Run.
I'm glad your D picked up her children and fled.
And that SOB should rot in jail.
love
Deb
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Folks - I deleted all my messages about D on the off-chance that she'll eventually land here someday and read. What I'm going through and think doesn't have much relevance for her and what she's facing... and has to do. I'm relaying most of this in 3-D, in person anyway to her.
DEB... I'm so glad you showed up & chimed in! I really need your fire...
... and anyway, enough of my digression... I want to get back to the original topic!!
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Okay Amber.
How about (can't remember if this has been listed or not): checking and keeping track that your view of 'reality' is pretty much in line with what's in 3D <pause for a chuckle there, for all the rationalisations we can muster..>
(But that's not necessarily 'healthy' if you want to be happy, or so the research of late has said?)
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What I'm going through and think doesn't have much relevance for her and what she's facing... and has to do.
Amber,
I understand what you're saying, but please make sure you do not minimize your own feelings about this or how it affects you in 3D. I think being raised in dysfunctional N FOOS, we may down play the effect of a family member's problems/chaos. This is a family crisis & everyone is effected by it, some more so than others & in different ways.
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Ann: I've felt vulnerable and fragile from the first phone call. Yes, I know... this is extremely difficult for me. I see her repeating the same kinds of things my mom did... behaving in the same victim-frame of mind... etc. Every single "old thought/defense mechanism/coping pattern" I had/have is being tweaked right now. Hell of a challenge and I feel as if I'm only just keeping my head above water... I want to flee my own house right now... their sheer presence in it is enough to cause me to want to scream.
Awful, ain't it? My own kid. But there it is. Fingers crossed - not many more days till she's able to head off to the next chapter by herself.
OK Guest - I'll play!! (thanks)
If I have to continually check whether or not my view of reality matches some generalized version of it in 3-D... I'm going to be too busy to be happy - much less do anything else!! LOL! For me, the problem would be - which version is most valid? So, I take a more subjective view (or so I've been told)...
My view of reality is what is around me... what is coming at me... to deal with (foreground of the picture) against the larger view of what I know for a fact is possible (background). I know that many, many things exist in the background - even some that I don't know about and don't see at all. The unseen reality is almost as important to me... thoughts, ideas, feelings... as what is tangible. And I think we all have different tunnels into the unseen reality... so we don't always agree on what that reality is.
That said - I find this keeps life really interesting and fun - finding out how other people see the unseen reality... and I guess this kind of makes me a people person, even if I don't like large groups all at once!
But... does this go on the list for a healthy ego? Maybe we could rephrase this... I think I know what you mean... that it's necessary to face reality, without spinning it into some self-soothing BS or denying accountability or responsibility or blaming or...
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PHEW! Inhale... slooooow..... exhale...... slooow....
They left Fri. morning for a sight-unseen affordable apartment. Unfortunately, the water won't be turned on until Monday, so they are hotel'ing it for the weekend. It's not a nice place at all - but it is safe and the boys can go back to their current school; mom can go back to work (fingers crossed); and they can begin the tasks of sorting out how they got into this mess and how to get somewhere better. She is hoping to get some counselling contacts on Monday...
It's hard to explain - but being in the same space with this D makes my skin crawl and ramps up my inner anxiety to the point of obsessing about my own past... how she might be mirroring (and whom)... and well, I don't trust her and really she hasn't given me any reason to trust her - even at the most basic level, of whether she is or has a genuine self or if the words that come out of her mouth have any real meaning to her, or if she's merely saying what she thinks I want to hear. This is just the latest rendition of rescue that's gone on over the course of 16 years so far.... and I know things will be fine for a bit now; maybe 6 months... like she's gotten a booster shot of vitamins or sanity or peace of mind. It always wears off because she doesn't know how to create it herself - and it matters not how many times she's had it explained or shown to her or the level of support she's had to create and sustain it.
But the boundary has been drawn - she can't stay here. Despite the words coming out of her mouth it was obvious that is what she wanted to me to ask her to do. She is 35 and a mom herself. It is not my job to provide safety, order and nurturing to her boys - and I shouldn't be required to do this for her now, either. Whether I choose to and for how long is my own decision. And I'd already inconvenienced and disturbed my hubs, my dog and 3 cats... everyone gave up something to allow her to regroup here.
Especially me. My compassion chain's been jerked by her so many times - it's a desperate situation mom! - only to have her merely cycle through again, again, and again... I'm beginning to think that empathy and compassion makes a person out to be a sucker and a fool.**
At 11, she found a way to manipulate and orchestrate things in such a way as to hurt me deeply; so deeply I sunk back into a Twiggy-style space for a while. Her sister was affected, too. And the last 16 years haven't done anything to prove that she even understands what she did or how many times she has repeated the same aggressive act in varying degrees of self-loathing and catastrophe... for some hidden-even-to-her motive. She is not a well person. Both sister and I know this and we have been distancing ourselves for a 3-4 years now. As a result, I've also kept pretty high boundaries and much distance between myself and the boys. We have explained to her many times that she risks losing the boys - and it does seem to matter to her, but not necessarily for the expected reasons. I know I dare not put myself out there as being able to care for them and I'm trying to convince my other D not to offer this, as well - tho she would in a heartbeat. Both she and I need to be able to live our lives without "caring for a sick one" - or being the only adults in the situation. To heal ourselves.
D has a scaffold of support where she is now... the beginnings anyway. Those people won't have the same sensitivities I do, can be more objective, and perhaps she'll even hear them better than she hears me...
so I'm releasing the outcome.
** So, a healthy ego offers compassion, empathy... where it's appreciated with gratitude, and offers appropriate help on the basis of hoping to see it bear fruit. If there is no fruit on a particular tree - no matter how much or what combination of compassion and help - it's time to find another tree and let go, with as much love as can be mustered.
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Oh, Amber.
Jesus.
Words still fail.
I am thinking of you.
You have done the best that you can for her.
Perhaps your other D will want to help her nephews, that would be for her to decide...
but God.
How much it has hurt you. I am so terribly sorry.
I understood what you said about whether she's connected to herself or just saying what she thinks you want to hear. My guess is that even without such disorder, it's not uncommon for kids to not want to, or be able to, be so authentic with their parents. So both healthy and UNhealthy kids are often just saying what they think we want to hear...because they don't want to be in the dialogue.
I am glad you are protecting your sanity.
And glad they are safe again for now.
With hope and love,
Hops
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Hops,
After 16 years of being my second or even taking over where/when I wouldn't or couldn't go, in this struggle with D1... D2 has neglected her own life and is only just now, after maybe 3 years, beginning to arrange a foundation from which to grow herself. I will oppose her throwing this away - throwing herself under the bus - to step up and take in children with serious issues and stretch herself so thin that she never gains the traction she needs to finish growing her own soul. She has a monumental head-start on her sister... but still needs to learn some things and focus on herself and her own life. She's not stable enough herself, to be able to give this much yet - and she knows this.
We've discussed the boys, she and I, for years. We're not faced with that situation at the moment - I just know it's still a possibility. And as awful as that is; sounds; to one of us Tiger-Mamas... a fate worse than death almost... reality is, that it may actually be an improvement in the little one's lives. I won't let D2 sacrifice all the work she's done; obstacles (even self-perpetuated ones) overcome; and real-life accomplishments that she's gained in the last few years - I won't let her sacrifice all this because of the lack of same on her sister's part. That's a pattern we broke - on purpose - for very, very good reason. D1 would easily drag D2 right on down the crapper with her... and mom ain't gonna let THAT happen.
So, fingers crossed. No holding breath or expecting leopard to change spots... no miracles expected. I'll settle for plodding along baby steps... and support each step that leads in the right direction, as best I can. And release the outcome. I'm starting to bounce back... maybe I'll be recovered by Monday and can talk about something else. I've processed most of this out now... and D1 knows that no one can do what needs to be done - except her; for her and her boys. We'll see what the universe provides this time, won't we?
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I love what happened as I read your post, ((((((Amber)))))):
I read the first paragraph, and word of honor, the phrase "Tiger Mama" popped into my head. I heard that power and recognized what it meant.
Then I read the next paragraph, and you said, "Tiger Mama."
You are determined to save D2, not let her abandon herself. And you have faith that she has taken strength from your determination...even enough to acquire her own.
Kudos, Mama.
Meanwhile, care for Amber -- even tigers get tired.
Are you doing okay?
xo
Hops
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Yes, I'm doin OK - hubs insists on it and reminds me that I've neglected him for a week, for good measure ;)
D1 is getting her life together back in old area now... even brave enough to return to the jerk-lair and retreive more belongings. Should be getting contacts for counselling today...
D2 will be fine... as long as she doesn't cross the boundary of trying to do what she thinks D1 should do; D1 really, really NEEDS to do it herself and have the accomplishment of that...
I'm just quiet now... & busy trying to not let projects that got interrupted last week slide or fall through cracks... quiet is REAL good...