Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: elephant woman on November 08, 2004, 07:00:20 PM
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Hi, I am new on this board and I did not read so many posts (yet) from this great site, so maybe I missed the information I was looking for.
I was wondering if some of you heard about "female gender narcissism" (or "phallic woman", but I don' like the words, pejorative to me). It's a woman/girl who cannot accept her feminine side (even though fully heterosexual) and who acts like a tomboy to "get even" with the guys all the time (consciously or unconsciously). It's like a masculinity complex.
I have not found much about this on the internet, besides psychanalytic theories that are complicated and do not provide for "real solutions"/understanding eg F.Dolto’s : http://www.psychomedia.it/jep/number7/dolto.htm
(even though her book helped me a lot).
I feel profoundly desperate right now because this is what I was diaganosed 18 months ago in a psychoanalysis... A few days ago, after I read an article (in French) by Canadian "sexo-analysts" that really opened my eyes, I had a terrible nightmare where I saw myself as a horrible little phallic girl (fighting to get anything, asking again and again, etc...).
Since then I feel both relieved (I validate my analyst diagnosis) and desperate, I feel so powerless...It feels like I have a huge disease that everybody sees but not me (until the dream I had).
Plus (I tried to be careful to not project this onto other females in my family, I tried to be as honnest and sincere as possible, really), it seems to me that this disease affects also my NMother, my older sister and (at least) one of my Ngrand-mothers, and her own mother as well... Like girls' trans-generational disease...
Can anybody relate? I feel like I am an "elephant woman" now, I feel scared, now I have seen the "beast". I think this dysfunction is the reason why I never wanted to have a child, for fear of being like my NMother nor her NMother nor her own NMother..and so on.
Also I read Elan Golomb's so great book 3 weeks ago which validated to me that both my parents are narcissists (I did not want to see the truth when I read Toxic Parents.3 monrths ago). I felt great anger about them, and now I see that it’s too late for me as well, I am "contaminated " too.
With this reading and self-analysis, I feel like now I am getting crazy..( I feel both self hatred and relief in the same time). I don’t know if anyone can relate to this, but thank you anyway for having taken the time to read this...
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I wrote this post spontaneously then I asked myself why I said "elephant woman". It's what I said about myself a few days after my Dad had a heart attack, 3.5 years ago, (which he recovered through an operation).
I was away from my country (job training) and I had I guess? a food allergy which gave me a big oedem on my forehead : when I looked at myself in the mirror, I nearly collapsed when I saw "a monster" or an "elephant (wo)man"
I put some ice on it and then it disappeared a few hours after. Since then I am afraid about this "thing" coming back. I know it has a phallic connotation, but please do not think I am crazy, it is spontaneous (and serious) writing. I hope I did not scare any of you by my first post.
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Hi elephant woman,
Your post did not scare me. I just felt sadness for what you have been going through. It must be hard to feel contaminated. I'm sure there is much hope for you because you have identified an area you need help in. We all have our deep areas where we need help - we just have different dynamics from our upbringing. Thank you for your honesty. It is refreshing! :) I guess my problems aren't what you described your problem as. I do feel anger because of my brother being able to get away with everything when I was growing up. He could do no wrong. Probably an opposite problem with my mom but it left me angry at male chauvinism. I married a very cool guy that is masculine but his mom did her hardest to help him not turn out like her husband so he has some of those "sensitive" traits that woman want in a man. Anyway, welcome elephant woman and glad you are here!! I hope your face doesn't swell again from a food and I understand that kind of fear.
P.S. I was somewhat of a tom boy growing up. I feel satisfied because I know how to use a chainsaw and have cut my own firewood and have split firewood with the best of them. I have more examples like this. oops I bragged sorry :oops:
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I feel profoundly desperate right now because this is what I was diaganosed 18 months ago in a psychoanalysis...
I've never heard of this diagnosis. I wonder if it was possibly more of an "observation" or "interpretation" by your psychoanalyst.
I'd urge you to ask your analyst what s/he means, exactly, by this "diagnosis" because you became profoundly upset by it.
Sometimes psychiatrists say things that they shouldn't. A diagnosis is among those things. Most of them don't reveal their diagnosis to the patient as it labels the patient and makes them feel terrible. And the diagnosis might be inaccurate in the first place.
A phallic woman isn't always a tomboy. Sometimes they are quite feminine. All women are phallic to some degree, otherwise they wouldn't get anything done.
I'm confused by what your analyst told you and perhaps you are as well...
bunny
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Hi Flower, I wanted to thank you very much for your warm message. I read it this morning (6 hours difference with you because I live in Paris France) and you made my day :D
Thanks for your careful listening and humor... I feel already more light, you are the 2nd person I talk about it in 18 months (!). The other person was a saleswoman in a psychology bookstore. I told her my “problem” and I bought half a dozen of good books from her about mother-daughter relationships. But they are all in French and I do not know if they are translated in English. If anybody is interested, please let me know.
Psychology stuff in French culture are very much psychoanalysis oriented. It's interesting to understand a bit the process, but it does not help to get answers and solutions (contrary to the behavioral approach as you have here in the US).
So this is probably why, Guest, you did not hear about phallic women in the US. In fact I got most of the information when I typed “Femme phallique” (in French) and not “phallic woman” in Google. And conversely most of the information I had about abuse was from English/American sites and books, I guess it is more compatible with the behavioral approach.
But I find both approaches interesting and complimentary.
Ok, I stop now my “course” about psychology or I will soon sound like my Nfather (!).
To answer your really interesting comment, Guest, I am convinced (even though it hurts) that I am a phallic woman. I think also my analyst attitude was not appropriate (will tell more in another post). Guest, could you please explain to me what you mean by “Phallic”? Maybe we do not mean the same thing..
All women are phallic to some degree, otherwise they wouldn't get anything done
I think being a phallic woman is one expression (among others) of narcissism because it is a denial of reality (real self of being a woman) by building another (false) self that is strongly and secretly convinced that we are “by nature closer” to men than to women.
I think the “symptoms” of being a phallic woman may differ from one woman to another, but the results are the same: it is a negation of belonging to the group of women. Here are examples:
-Lots of male friends or xbf told me I had a “masculine mind” (even though I can physically look feminine when I want it), I would rather wear strict clothes, and I am always in conversations trying to “beat” the men. When I was 7, I remember saying very seriously I wish I could change later into a man so that I would not to have chidren. I was playing with boys and ignored girls. Still today I have much more male friends than female friends. I never ever wanted to look like my Mom (even when very very young). When I lived with my mother, half-joking, half-serious, I was telling my xbf I really wish I could be a transsexual. When I left again her appartment, I never spoke like this again. I could never picture myself in a very long term with a man of mine (even when I had serious relationships, I always thougt of them as temporary). When I see my Mom, I try to look as masculine as possible, because I am afraid of her jealousy. When I was born, they did not have a female first name ready, only a male one (my grand-father’s..)
- my grandmother (raised with her two brothers), forbids people to call her by her real first name, they should call her “Mrs <her husband first name> <her husband last name>". She also never identified with her own Mom (whom she hated) but with her father (huge picture of her Dad still on her desk). She is very cold, she lives in a huge empty appartment (at 97!), she spends her time about power games / money games over her 6 Children and 30 grand and grand grand chidren. Her (grand) sons have been openly her favorites over her (grand) daughters.
-my mother was sent to a boys only school during the first two years. She said that she always looked more like a man than a woman (when we were kids, I felt uncomforatble when people in shops would often tell her, Mr instead of Mrs), she always joked about how people thought she was a lesbian (pls no offense here) when she was going on vacation with her girlfriend when in her twenties. Finally she always jokes about being an “incestuous mother” with her three daughters. She told me recently that she never felt being a wife but always a mother, that until she married my Dad, she never wanted to have a husand nor have children.
I think she, my grand-mother, and myself have trouble with female gender identification because we could not identify with the (small) feminine part of our mothers. Now I am asking myself how I could repair that, knowing that the closer I get to my Mom, the more a phallic woman I feel...
Woooow that was a looong post... :wink:
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Sorry about that bunny, I talked to you as Guest as I did not see that you had signed as Bunny...
I am not too familiar (yet) with the login system, as I apparently appear as Guest (!). Oh well, that was just Elephant Woman testing the login system :)
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Bonjour l'Accueil de Femme d'Eléphant à notre petit forum. Bien que nous n'avons pas entendu de beaucoup d'entre eux dernièrement, nous avons plusieurs membres de votre côté de l'étang. Je n'ai jamais entendu parler des femmes/filles phalliques, cela s'intéresse très. J'ai entendu parler des hermaphrodites bien que.
Mommas, ne pas laisser vos bébés grandissent en haut pour être N.
Un N par aucun autre nom aucunes puanteurs calmes.
Nous sommes seulement une voyelle loin d'est des ICONES.
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Guest, could you please explain to me what you mean by “Phallic”? Maybe we do not mean the same thing..
Hello, this is bunny. Don't worry about referring to me as Guest.
My idea of phallic woman is not about the woman's appearance. It's about her level of aggression.' Phallic' implies power, aggression, action, confidence, strength. On the negative side it could mean brutality, cruelty.
I don't see anything narcissistic about it. It's just a way of considering someone's internal objects to understand them.
-Lots of male friends or xbf told me I had a “masculine mind”
I've been told this too. They don't know anything about your mind. What matters is whether you like your mind and how it works.
I think she, my grand-mother, and myself have trouble with female gender identification because we could not identify with the (small) feminine part of our mothers. Now I am asking myself how I could repair that, knowing that the closer I get to my Mom, the more a phallic woman I feel...
You can repair it by getting to know about your feminine aspects, exploring them, and seeing if there's any fun to be had there. And withstanding the guilt, shame, and fear of evoking your mother's envy.
bunny
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Hi Discounted Girl! Cela me fait tres plaisir de lire du francais sur ce forum!!! :D :D (Iam really glad to read in French on this board). Woooow..
I have a few pages about “phallic women” from the Internet but I saved the texts on Word not as urls, so I do not know how to post them here.
Je peux vous donner les titres de livres auxquels je faisais allusion (the Fench books I was talking about):
De meres en filles - Imagos de la feminite. (Annick Le Guen) / PUF
Meres et filles la menace de l'identique (compilation of psychanalysts texts about mother-daughter relationships) / PUF Petite bibliothèque de psychanalyse
Meres-filles une relation trois (Caroline Eliacheff, Nathalie Heinrich)/Albin Michel
And also about the role of the father, all books by Aldo Naouri they are easy to read (no psychanalytic jargon here) and that emphasize the role of the Father in the Mother-Daughter relationship.These books confirmed what I had seen in my analysis: a symbolically absent father has an enormous impact on Mother-Daughter relationships.
As an example, when I got my dad birth certificate last year, it said he was recognized only by his mother and he got his father last name only at the age of two (after my grandparents got married). I will spare the diffcult corcumstances of his birth (beginning of WWII, Grandfather in the Polish army, my grandparents being Polish people forced to stay in France). Amlso my two great grandfathers on my Dad side died when my grandparnts were around 10 (WWI in Poland).
Anyway, I collapsed physically when I read the birth certificate because it showed (at least symbolically) the absence of the father (consequently the overpower of the Mother). Then I seemed not to recover from it after a few days, so my analyst said that he had lost hope about me. Not very comforting, uhh...
Then I decided after a couple of months that I would end my analysis, I was too afraid and disgusted by his attitude (even though I admit he is a brilliant analyst and helped).
So I am now trying to identify the roles of women on my mother side , and the role of men on my father side (I went to Poland last summer for genealogy research). I am trying on one side to understand the unbalance of mother/father in my family and my ancestors, and also to spot narcissism (which I know my parents are and my grandmother as well). And also the issue of phallic women... I hope this is not too confusing... :?
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Hi Bunny, thanks a lot for your reply. It really made things much more clear to me. I think your definition is the right one :
"It's about her level of aggression.' Phallic' implies power, aggression, action, confidence, strength. On the negative side it could mean brutality, cruelty. " I will remember it!!
Does that imply that my analyst was a misogynist if in his words a "phallic woamn" was such a bad thing??? :!:
And maybe you are also right about the fact that there is nothing narcisstic about it, but I need to learn/read more about the topic, b/c I am not sure yet. Even though it is easy for me to imagine a N woman who is not phallic, I cannot really figure out how a phallic woman cannot be narcisstic. Could you please explain to me (again, sorry) :
"It's just a way of considering someone's internal objects to understand them. "
Maybe it would help me clear up some things.. Thank you very much in advance :wink:
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Anyway, I collapsed physically when I read the birth certificate because it showed (at least symbolically) the absence of the father (consequently the overpower of the Mother). Then I seemed not to recover from it after a few days, so my analyst said that he had lost hope about me. Not very comforting, uhh...
He seems to lose hope pretty quickly.
Then I decided after a couple of months that I would end my analysis, I was too afraid and disgusted by his attitude (even though I admit he is a brilliant analyst and helped).
The question is, did he help more or hurt more? What proportion was the helping and hurting...
bunny
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Does that imply that my analyst was a misogynist if in his words a "phallic woamn" was such a bad thing??? :!:
I don't know why he'd tell you bad things about yourself. Maybe you could ask him why on earth he called you a "phallic woman" and what he meant by it. You shouldn't have to guess and read a lot of books to figure out what he told you. If he's being vague, mysterious, or something, you can ask for clarification.
Even though it is easy for me to imagine a N woman who is not phallic, I cannot really figure out how a phallic woman cannot be narcisstic.
Usually when I think of "phallic woman" (or man), it's just a way of perceiving this person's assertiveness. It doesn't mean the person is narcissistic. For instance, there's a movie, Alien (okay, I haven't seen it) where Sigourney Weaver is a phallic woman. I don't know whether she's a narcissist in the film but I think she's a hero!
P.S. your English is excellent.
bunny
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Hey Discounted! No fair! No Fair! No comprende! (I only know limited Spanish) LOL
Hi Elephant woman,
I would rather call you something else- something working towards how you would like to see yourself- a part of yourself you might like to bring out? "Deer Woman"?
I understand the pain you must be feeling with this internal dilemma.
I used to feel uncomfortable with how others perceived me because it didn’t match how I felt inside. I never felt like the figure that others saw. I felt like I was living a lie. I have a healthy dose of masculine in me – an aspect of my personality I used to want to hide.
If you were to meet me in person you would see a very feminine woman, delicate, fragile, quite female. But I am much more than that. Inside I am muscular, and angular, resilient and capable, a rather hairy beast if I have to be. I don’t operate within the spectrum of my perceived femininity.
I honestly don’t feel either feminine or masculine- I feel like me.
When I was about seven years old, I had this Princess Halloween mask that I often played with. I remember that yearning to look like this Princess, to feel the prettiness and femininity of this princess. I was attracted to friends that had long pretty hair- to me that signified the femininity I so longed to feel for myself. My mother had kept my hair in a pixie cut for her convenience. I had felt butchered.
My father never treated me as if he cherished his little girl, never held me or fussed over me. He treated me like I was just a brain, a brain to be inputted, to be programmed. His little computer.
I think he was scared of me and my sister’s femaleness. I offered up a masculine, cerebral side for him to feel comfortable and to gain his acceptance and approval, if not love. Even with this, he only threw me occasional crumbs of acknowledgement.
My mother on the other hand was very young at my birth and experiencing her own beauty and there was apparently none to share. She was to be Queen Bee.
So I grew up brainy, in a female body I couldn’t relate to. I would study with envy my girlfriends who were so natural with their bodies, especially during puberty, who were excited at the changes they were experiencing. I just felt strong shame and embarrassment. And I went through a terrible time of real physical ugliness. Awkward and ugly in every way.
I have forever avoided mirrors and cameras! I especially avoid cameras, which capture a moment into a frozen forever. What they capture in me is that deer - in - the - headlights look!
Eventually I realized that I was what I had wished so much as a child to be, I was quite feminine, but by then the time to have that incorporated into my being as a natural unquestioned awareness, was past. What I wanted wasto be that girl who was unquestioning in her femaleness.
With men, I had always felt that they would find out the truth of me- and seek a more truly female woman. I plowed through these feelings with a wonderful man in my life who I felt I could trust to see all my sides. I learned from him that men really want a well rounded woman. Not the cupcake version of womanhood that my insecure little self envisioned as superior to myself.
Personally, now I am glad. Through this questioning I have found my own femininity- but not the kind portrayed through the media.
I have like Flower said, split and cut my own wood, I have learned to fix my own car, I have stepped out into the realms of a mans world whenever I felt I had to take care of my own needs- instead of relying on a man.
Bunny- You can repair it by getting to know about your feminine aspects, exploring them, and seeing if there's any fun to be had there.
When I moved into my current home, my first home to myself for years, I let myself decorate it just the way I felt most reflected my tastes. My bedroom is a mix of dark stained pine furniture dressed with pink and ruffle, with one of those mosquito nettings over the bed, and - how daring! - a long graceful arched mirror on the opposite wall at the foot of my bed. This room is a nice mix of both warm comforting masculine and light fluffy feminine. I love it.
Good luck in unfolding your feminine side - I am sure it is fully there. Don't let your mom get in your way. It sounds like it is up to you to take back what has been yours all along. Phoenix
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Hi Bunny, thanks for your interesting questions :
-about my analyst, I would say that he helped more than he hurt because he made me become aware of many things about myself and my relationships with my family. It ”worked” great in that for example I had lots of physical symptoms (swollen ankle when the Oedipus was dealt with (!) I went to lots of doctors who could not see anything, but I could barely walk for one month. Also I had very painful headaches, as soon as I was talking about my Mom..). So it hurt and it worked, I would say...
But I am now aware that my defenses were really big, and it did not ease the work, e.g. I saw my analyst either as my omnipotent mother or as an avoidant father (projections).
-the problem about asking him clarification, is that if I asked him a question before getting to the couch he would say wait, only during the analytic session, and during the session, he would never talk (even if I ask a question) because this is the way a psychoanalysis is conducted: the patient talks by him/herself basically (!). I think this is why psychoanalytic cures are sometimes so long and/or so difficult. Of course he would “indirectly guide” me with a few words, but he would never answer a question like “what do you mean by a phallic woman?” He said at the beginning that his methodology was Lacanian (famous in France, most of psychanalysts are Lacanians), and it has strict rules that I should accept if I wanted to do the analysis with him.
-about the definition of “phallic”, I’d rather stuck to your previous definition that I found excellent (the one related to agression, and that can hence be postive or negative) because to me agressivity is not self-assertion, it’s different but they are confused very often ;).
I have found a few links about :
-the “phallic feminie roles” in movies or Japanese mangas (a bit difficult for me to read, but the end of the article differentiates between “phallic woman” and “phallic girl”...) BTW my analyst spent 6 years in Japan and is really fond of Japanese culture (LOL!!!!) : http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/review_essays/gardner88.htm
-about the narcisstic men and the "phallic mother", really interesting I had never heard about that : http://www.generatia.ro/HTML/Eng/Colocviu/2003/CI_Nevoia_p1.htm
-about this form of narcissism related to gender identification, but aimed at “strong” symptoms such as homosexuality (no offense here again) : http://www.generatia.ro/HTML/Eng/Colocviu/2003/CI_Nevoia_p1.htm
I am not sure about the real worth of these articles but they can give ideas/clarifications.
BTW thanks for the compliment about my English, I had spent a couple of years in LA about 8 years ago (which saved my life but that is another story;)... )
-Elephant Woman
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Hi Phoenix, thank you for telling how you feel about your feminity, it is never easy ot talk about it openly...
-I thought about changing my nickname that I found afterwards a bit provocative (is that a N trait ;) ), but then I told myself I would not change it before I have at least fully understood the link between narcissism and problem with gender identification –that may take time.. I don’t know...I have a couple of other “nicknames” in mind for the board, but I am not sure yet about which one I will like the best...
-I also always felt “different” fom other girls since my earlier childhood. And this had not changed so much until 6 months ago, when I had repeating dreams (during one week) about my Mum, grand-mother and aunts... It is then that I decided that I should get into that “problem”, I bought the books in French that I had listed in the post above, and also I read another one that I forgot to mention, it is in English, called “In the company of women”, by Pat Heim and Susan Murphy. It was really interesting because being constantly around men I had no idea about women interrelations (it is not about narcissism nor psychology stuff, just about women).
-Also as Bunny said, it is true that it’s not b/c we can do “men stuff” (me too I learnt quickly to rely on myself, whether it is fixing a car, a computer or a lamp), that we are “all masculine” nor “phallic”. I guess I was confused with all these concepts. As Bunny and yourself said, I should work on my femine side on one hand, and on narcissism on the other hand.
-“He treated me like I was just a brain, a brain to be inputted, to be programmed”: this I think may be one of the reason why your feminity could not properly develop, it had not been recognized/encouraged by your father. Men’s (especially fathers’) attitude towards women’s feminity has a hugeimpact on how we can build our gender identification, i.e. our individulaity. As far as I am concerned, my Mom is at fault: she discouraged it because it is something that she had negated for herself.
-“With men, I had always felt that they would find out the truth of me- and seek a more truly female woman” This is also the feeling I used to have, until I started to understand this mother-daughter relationship and the fact that I never chose “right men” (the book “women who love too much” was a real eye opener). But contrary to you, I have not had the chance yet to meet a man that would help me grow my feminine side. To say the truth, I count more on myself for that. I feel only when I am more comfortable with my feminine traits, will I be able to find a man that suits me.
-So, as you said, I should nurture my feminine side.
And I would add :“denurture” my narcissstic traits... Find sources of feminine identifications other than my Mom and women in my family J !!
One thing that bugs me is that when I interact with my Mom, I feel my small feminine part vanishing, my aggressivity increasing, my sense of identity dissolving, narcisstic behaviors developing (I would brag..) b/c I still try to please her and to be recognized by her.
Maybe it is time for me to definitely mourn this without trying to understand all the details of why she is like this. Mourning my mother who is still a little girl and mourning the little girl inside me and becoming a (non Elephant) Woman. May be easier said than done ;) Oh well I can try.
(Ex?) Elephant woman
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-the problem about asking him clarification, is that if I asked him a question before getting to the couch he would say wait, only during the analytic session, and during the session, he would never talk (even if I ask a question) because this is the way a psychoanalysis is conducted: the patient talks by him/herself basically (!). I think this is why psychoanalytic cures are sometimes so long and/or so difficult.
He put you in an impossible bind. He can tell you any confusing thing he wants and he never has to explain it. This leaves you the option of buying books to find out - of coming here to find out - and we don't know what he means. He won't tell you himself. Just leaves you with his traumatic pronouncements. He may be brilliant and a genius but I think he may be a narcissist!
He said at the beginning that his methodology was Lacanian (famous in France, most of psychanalysts are Lacanians), and it has strict rules that I should accept if I wanted to do the analysis with him.
Confirmed - he's a narcissist. :lol:
I think something you might like is Jungian theory.
bunny
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Hey Bunny, I think I am convinced now (finally :) !!)...
At first I thought it was the "methodology" thing, but now I see that I was put in an impossible situation... In psychoanalysis, the patient talks but the analyst EMPATHETICALLY listens (I did not find this listening quality or only at the beginning). Plus, he should have said (using the analytic jargon terms), something like : "you have trouble with feminine identification" (implying "look at your bad maternal introjects"), and "you also have narcisstic traits" (due to improper maternal nurture), and not (I remember he had sort of a triumphant tone) : "you are a narcissstic woman"... Because a therapist should only describe traits/characteristics/behavior of a patient and not say "you ARE this or that". I thought my feelings were not based on reality but only my projections of my N parents onto him.
i happened to "choose" him as analyst (I had "tried" two other ones before him) b/c during the first session, I thought: wow, he really talks like K (one of my xbf, who I understood later was a real true N :roll: but I never made the connection!).
About my last xbf: he also had the same way of talking as K, I was so impressed. Then I saw quickly how N he was, and I started setting strong boudaries. End of the story, after the breakup, I "bumped" into him in a street: in fact I did not recognize him at first, I saw a man whose face looked familiar and MADE ME THINK OF MY ANALYST (he physically looks like him, 20 years younger :lol: ). Amazing, no?
Also, I agree that "phallic woman" is not a real therapy term, I remember at the bookstore when I said it to the saleswoman, she was embarrassed b/c she had no books dealing with this. All she could give to me were books about mother/daughter relationships (and not about N...)
I thought I had become good at spottinng abusers and narcissists... Well...I guess I still need to learn, it's only the beginning :wink:
Thanks a lot for your patience, Bunny, to show me that I was on the wrong tracks
(Ex) Elephant Woman
Time to find a new nickname, what about EyesWideOpen?
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Hi again,
I think something you might like is Jungian theory.
You are right :lol: I just took the Meyers Briggs personality test, and I agreed w/ every word of the description (I am ENTP). Next week I will get the results of the graphology analysis, I am excited about the results : will it show the writing of a huge/bad/castrating phalllic woman? LOL ).
For now I will get some (internet) reading about the Jungian theory... :wink:
(Ex) Elephant Woman
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I have a few questions for you elephant woman or anyone else who has been posting on this thread. I was in an abusive relationship. Separated since the end of January. I have 3 children. Two boys, 16 and 13 and a little girl 8 years old. When she goes for the weekend to her dad's I have just found out that she sleeps with him in his bed. At this time I don't believe there is anything physical going on. It seems that it is an emotional neediness on his part. He brings her a single stem rose about once a week. Before we separated and even more so now she doesn't like to wear girl panties. She want to wear boys boxers and she never wears dresses. She dresses very masculine and won't wear anything with lace, pink/purple or feminine. She has long hair and won't let me do anything with her hair other than braids. Even her runners are from the boys section. How much is this personality and how much might this be red flags concerning something else? I try to not make a big thing about it because there is so much other negative stuff going on and I emotionally exhausted from all the poisoning my ex is doing with the kids in terms of trying to get them to turn against me. I am being blamed for ending this relationship.
Meadow
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Hi Phoenix, thank you for telling how you feel about your feminity, it is never easy ot talk about it openly...
It didn't bother me at all to talk about. It is so far behind me now. I look at my parents with reproach that I had to ever feel all those confused feelings.
-So, as you said, I should nurture my feminine side.
Yes I did that for myself, but also my masculine side. The feminine was alway fully there, I just didn't feel good about the side that was cerebral and strong minded. The two couldn't coexist. So I felt like something "other". I just didn't have any good role models. Now it seems like folly.
Phoenix
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Meadow, I don't know if how she dresses means a thing. From what I see around me with a lot of girls today, it seems normal. But your husband sharing his bed, and the rose- that bothers me. I would be very alarmed. Even if nothing overt was happening. If it is even something emotionally needy on his part- that is inappropriate. The rose thing- maybe I am off on that. I can't imagine my dad having done that, so it would seem wierd to me.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Phoenix.
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I agree Phoenix......in my gut it feels like emotional incest is taking place.
Hard to prove or have anyone do anything about it. I will let her counselor know, but recently her dad has her so poisoned against counselors I don't know if she will go anymore. This has been very difficult. The parent alienation syndrome is happening big time.
Meadow
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Meadow, does your ex have more than one bed at his place or not?
If he does, there is absolutely no good or innocent reason for your daughter to share his bed.
If this was my daughter, I would stop the overnight stays right now. The rose-giving is also unacceptable in western culture. It signifies romantic love and sex, not non-sexual love.
If your ex has poisoned her against counsellors, isn’t it your responsibility to un-poison her?
How does she feel about sleeping with him in his bed? How does she feel about the visits overall?
I’m shocked by your description. Maybe there’s more to explain, more information? I just react to a child at risk as I see it. From what you have said, that’s what I see.
Portia
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Hi Meadow:
Your husband abused you.
Do men usually sleep with their daughters because they are emotionally needy?
Are your instincts are telling you something and that's why you have reached out here?
Tell your lawyer.
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When she goes for the weekend to her dad's I have just found out that she sleeps with him in his bed. At this time I don't believe there is anything physical going on. It seems that it is an emotional neediness on his part.
It is abusive for him to exploit his 8-year-old daughter to assuage his emotional neediness. Plus -- I think there is something physical going on. The rose is not a good sign.
She dresses very masculine and won't wear anything with lace, pink/purple or feminine. She has long hair and won't let me do anything with her hair other than braids. Even her runners are from the boys section.
I think she wants to be a boy like her brothers so she doesn't have to sleep with Daddy.
Please tell your attorney about this today. If your attorney sucks, call Child Protective Services.
bunny
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Hi Meadow,
Like all posters above I was shocked about your x husband behavior.
About the emotional incestual conduct of her father
I totally validate your feelings: sleeping in the same bed IS emotional incest, whether there is one or two beds available I do not care!!! You should not feel guilty about it but responsible to do something now about it.
[last year, after a very difficult break-up I came to my Mom's appartment, which was getting repainted, so only one room and one bed was available. I had to sleep in the same bed as hers and it felt awful (I was 28 ). Also my my older sis (now 31) when she stayed there (she does not live in Paris but in the South of France), she would sleep in same bad as Mom's w/o problem!!! ]
[4 months ago, during my "self analysis" (pompous name, I know), I was googling on the net not knowing what I was after. I found sites/boards about incest. When I read them, I cried so hard I thought I would throw up/big migraines/etc.. The body remembers . What I don’ t know.]
So what you SHOULD do (sorry if I sound a bit directive, but the more you wait, the more it will be difficult for all of you to deal with it ):
1) Get informed about abuse, boundaries and emotional abuse through web sites/boards. Here are a few books about abuse / boundaries that I have bought (you can buy them second hand, it’s very unexpensive). They are aimed at adults recovering from abuse, but it will help you understand the mechanics.
Boundaries Where You End and I Begin
Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day
Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life
Controlling People: How to Recognize, Understand and Deal with People Who Try to Control You
The Secret of Overcoming Verbal Abuse: Getting Off the Emotional Roller Coaster and Regaining Control of Your Life
2) Get informed through incest abuse web sites, boards to understand the feelings of incest survivors. Ask about them about incest survivors books to buy, people on these boards will know better than me.
Here are a few links. Even though when there is no actual incest, emotional incest effects can be as bad as physical ones (remember the difference b/w physical and emotional abuse? there is NO difference in terms of impact upon the victim).Here are a few links: http://incestabuse.about.com/od/childabuse/
http://www.siawso.org/effects.html
http://www.niu.edu/women/URW/resources/survivors.shtml
http://www.rainn.org/facts.html
http://incestabuse.miningco.com/cs/a.htm
Again stay strong and do not let yourself devastated by the impacts on children of you can read/learn.
3) Through these boards/web sites, ask for a therapist specialized in children and incest issues. Be very careful about the therapist, if the “job” is not done correctly, it may worsen the case. Do not hesitate to change therapist if you see your daughter is not responding appropriately to the cure. The therapist should also help you by telling you how to behave towards your daughter, how your x husband should behave, and how she can find her natural place as the daughter of two parents and as the sister of two older brothers.
4) Take legal action concerning your husband but be very careful: emotional abuse is difficult to prove, and she should in no way feel guilty about it. Be very careful about the reaction of her father towards her if he is faced with the truth (he may try to badmouth her Mom, etc..).
5) Do not feel guilt about what is hapening. It is hard stuff, but it is not your fault, if you take proper action now, she will certainly recover. Just be really careful about her reactions. And also take care about your sons, they may be indirectly impacted by the incestual atmosphere.
About her problem with gender identification
As bunny said (brilliantly, sorry I pay you another compliment, bunny!!), she probably identifies with her brothers so that she would not have to sleep in her daddy’s bed.
1.She may have not accepted (yet?) being a girl b/c she wants to be like her two older brothers. It is not a disaster as “ideally” the Oedipus complex is resolved at the latest around 12; They may act (unconsciously) as “dad(s)” and unconsciously replace the image of the emotionally absent father. It is important that you do not consider them (unconscioulsy again) as the fatherly figure(s) in the household. She definitely needs an adult man around her (maybe an uncle, a grandfather, ideally someone that you share your life with, but I do not think this may be an obligation) who recognizes her feminity and encourages it in a non sexual way so that her Oedipus could resolve gently.
All this may take months or years, as the process should be slow and smooth.
2.She should also have opportunities to identify with as many feminine figures as possible. It is a good thing that she does not reject you as her mother, even though mother rejection is a “normal” (only if temporary!!!!) behavior in the Oedipus phase. Maybe, (just my 2 cent), try to think about additional feminine figures (besides you) in the family or close to your family (a cousin, an aunt, a grandmother...) so that she may have additional feminine identification sources..
3; In the same manner (maybe later), try to help her get close to feminine peers so that she can relate with them.
This is what I would intuitively do in your situation. But you would be better counselled by a child therapist. The masculinity behavior is not so shocking (in my mind) at her age, lots of healthy little girls act more or less like this for a while. But she may get stuck in this behavior for too long in the future as her triangulation (Oedipus resolution) may not be solved due to an emotionnally absent/abusive father.
Even if you are a very good Mom to her, it may (unfortunately) not be enough for her especially at this stage. All children need feminine reference(s) and masculine reference(s) that validate and encourage their gender identification, so that they can to get out at a reasonable age of this Oedipus thing.
PS I found out that it is rarely the case!! (at least for generations in my dysfunctional family).
Sorry for this so long post, I hope I am not shocking in my being “direct”, but I tried to be as sincere as possible. Again, do not let guilt let overwhelm you or her or anybody (besides the father!) in your family. I insist on this b/c guilt was/is sthg I myself struggle daily with.
It’s a great thing that you posted your story before it is too late...
PPS : about the father role, Aldo Naouri’s books are excellent; but do not talk about them to your ex husband, as lots of divorced men (at least in France) have tried to twist his ideas into antifeminists/anti-mom ideas (!).
(Ex) Elephant Woman
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Hi again Meadow,
I am so sorry, I did not read your other posts before I wrote the above post and I did not get the whole picture about your ex-husband using your children against you. I had not seen his abusive behavior, I under-estimated his acting.
But I still think that besides his covert effective abuse, your children may “believe” their father rather than you b/c again, they may feel the need to hear a “masculine voice” (and what a voice that is. :x ..). So if some male person in your family or close to you could (at least temporarily, but regularly) be now an additional (and later a replacing, hopefully) masculine figure who says good things / reestablish the truth about you as their mother, that would help “modify the balance” in your favor.
I am sure it is difficult now in your situation, but I think you may still try to get as much support as possible. Even if he has tried to turn your parents for example against you, try to demonstrate that he is wrong and abusive. You need as many allies as possible. Do not give up winning back the support you used to have.
His abuse is covert abuse (not overt), here is another book (one more.;) ) about it In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing With Manipulative People.
So maybe the priority for you now is to get back as many allies as possible, by learning what he told them about you and challenging it.
You know I think that the most abusive people are also those who are the biggest cowards... When he sees that you are fully supported by the people you have won back, he will diminish the bad mouthing thing. When he sees that another masculine figure challenges his omnipotence over your children, he should calm down. Also, it may take a lot of years for your children to see the truth, maybe they will only know it when they are finacially independent from him.
As far as I am concerned, the 1st time I heard good things about my father and his family was when I was 18: it was my 1st time in LA (away from family!), and I was linving for a month at this old lady’s who was my Polish grandmother’s best friend. This person told me good things about my father, I could also feel her goodness, her intelligence and her sincerety (contray to my mother and her family). She changed my life. She was the 1st feminine role model I could safely identify with. She reconciled me with my Dad, I could love my grandma w/o afterthoughts. I became proud of my Polish origins.
This summer when I was in Poland, lots of memories of my Polish grandparents came back to my mind. And also the stern voice of my Mother, criticizing everything that is Polish. A few days ago, when I told this to my Dad he was shocked b/c he never knew about the badmouthing. A few hours after I got a message from my Mom (1st time she called in 1 month), asking “how I was doing” (!). You know what.? I did not call back and I laughed b/c I know the truth.
So back to you and your children, maybe thir knowing of the truth cannot happen today b/c the abuse and the situation is too hard for now, but remember that there may be “an old lady” or “an old gentleman” waiting to say the truth one day to your children.
Maybe you could help make it happen indirectly. Nothing is lost forever. Never give up.
(Ex) Elephant Woman
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Hi, I just wanted to say that Elephant Woman has just turned into ResilientLady!!! :D
(I can't delete the Elephant Woman registration however, does anyone know how to do it?).
-ResilientLady
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ResiliantLady,
Congratulations on the name change! You are a lady, indeed. Your post was from your new name so something worked...
bunny
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Hi bunny, thanx for your encouragements... It still feels a bit weird for me to write "lady" as part of my new name but I guess I will get used to it :wink:...
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I agree Phoenix......in my gut it feels like emotional incest is taking place.
Hard to prove or have anyone do anything about it. I will let her counselor know, but recently her dad has her so poisoned against counselors I don't know if she will go anymore. This has been very difficult. The parent alienation syndrome is happening big time.
Meadow