Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sKePTiKal on March 15, 2011, 08:08:35 AM
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So... I'm fairly convinced now that there is a distinct physical aspect or perspective to the kind of emotional warpedness that I still experience and am working on. I've spent some time trying to "see" the connections... trying to find where this began to "go wrong" - in other words, where emotions and physical sensations and impact of the emotions got so hopelessly whirled together that it was difficult to tell body sensations apart from emotions. There are a lot of starting points for jumping into this, and I tried on a few and none of them were overly coherent or useful. I'm beginning to see that after working so long from the emotional starting point... the rest of the potential for progress might be from a physical starting point.
And then I realized that the date of my "very bad day" trauma was fast approaching... the Ides of March, the 15th... today. One of the things I know I've glossed over in my healing "program" are the physical-emotional aspects of the rape and near death experience. There were bigger things to get to and deal with than even something like that, for me... so perhaps this "new" idea for working from the physical is just a return to "finish up" the work that at that particular time, simply wasn't as important to me. (And this is the first year that there is no more internal Twiggy-tales about it; it's all just "me" now.)
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I just had an experience yesterday that provides an example of my inquiry:
I've been working with a woman, long distance over the phone on a business project. (Degree of difficulty for communication is already kinda high). I asked, what I thought was a simple yes - no question and what I got back from her was a continuous stream of information and regulation that she was obviously reading. I rephrased the question, I kept trying... but in all cases she kept returning to the words on the screen and referencing things that were outside of what I had asked and she wasn't speaking to me, from her understanding of those words. Fortunately, there was another person in the call who could "translate"!!
That 90 minute call, left me feeling like I'd been run over multiple times by a very, very large truck. I felt deflated and flat and beyond tired... and I "needed" to withdraw into myself to "recover". But I didn't. I'd postponed an errand to make the call... so hubs and I went out. Back home - I dove into my paper and began to insulate myself with the chips and dip I bought. Like slathering on a mustard plaster... for this particular emotional "wound".
My other phone conversations with this woman have been similar. She talks down to me - always gives me way more detail than I want or need, even though I've explained I do have some experience in the area we're discussing - and she always tries to "drive" the decision-making process. The conversations have been longer than necessary - I've felt she's pushy and doesn't hear me - and I've "pushed back" in self-defense.
I used to feel guilty about defending myself when confronted by these kinds of oblivious overbearing people, but I no longer have that kind of reaction. Progress! The area that still concerns me, though, is the kind of "need" I have for self-soothing and the way I do this. The way people like this barge right into and over what I feel are my "boundaries", regardless of how I try to back them up. Why do I not see this coming - especially given past experience - and yank the driving wheel out of her hands? Why does an experience like this leave me feeling so weak, wounded and "left for dead"... that my rationalization engine feels justified using any means whatsoever to "recover"?
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At a primal level, as infants... there isn't much difference between physical comfort/discomfort and emotional calm and comfort. And I think people's neuro-"firmware"... our amygdala reflexes and the brain systems that evolved out of that... have retained a fair measure of combining emotional reactions with a physical sensation. We have so many verbal expressions of emotion that are described using physical metaphors - walking on air, feeling crushed, a sinking fear in the pit of the stomach, deflated, etc.
It's "normal", in other words to feel emotions in combination with some physical sensations. At least in Amber's World of Explanations. What I'm finding dysfunctional - even self-sabotaging - is how I deal with that.
Some part of this is derived from a dysfunctional attachment style. Neglect... leaves an infant to find their own form of self-soothing... for me, withdrawal. And I suspect there might even be some distortion of the emotional impact of the "wound"... of whatever nature... the reinforcement that my needs are not important via neglect... so that the emotional is felt physically and therefore a physical solution (along with sensory withdrawal) is necessary for re-establishing equilibrium.
Yet again, there is a negative reinforcement when the physical solution "adds insult to injury" - when the infants' need for food, clean diaper or just physical touch is met with roughness, anger and resentment. Seeking emotional "Comfort" is dangerous, hurts, and makes things worse, in other words.
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Shame is another element of this puzzle. One would think I feel shame as I'm stuffing chips & dip mindlessly in my mouth. Absolutely not! The emotional need expressed physically trumps that. It's when I'm finally giving myself permission and taking an opportunity to indulge in self-care - particularly things that FEEL GOOD - when I've noticed that I feel rediculously foolish, that I'm feeling some kind of core over-riding shame that interferes with my initial motivation, continuing pursuit of those goals, and even my desire to feel physically healthy. The same exact thing happens when I lay out an intentional plan of action to quit smoking - not smoking brings up this feeling of shame. Go figure.
It's completely upside-down, inside-out and this one threw me for a loop - until I remembered some discussion of this kind of thing, over on the After Silence board, for sexual abuse and rape victims. And I was able to connect this, to a suggestion that Guest made over on the Designing a Healthy Ego thread - about needing to "trust in oneself". There are lots of ways that sexual abuse victims learn not to trust themselves - especially their bodies. And it doesn't seem to matter what age a victim - or survivor - is... though the lack of trust in oneself tends to integrate deeper in younger people, as they build defense mechanisms and coping strategies around the initial wound.
So this is like coming full circle for me... and tackling the original problem that my T and I identified about me not trusting myself. It involves in large measure so many of the projections from my mom, that I was not able to defend myself against too. And how this manifests as that nasty-whispering-cop on my shoulder... in my thoughts. But this time, instead of working from the emotional side back to the physical... I think I need to turn the process around.
And when the shame comes up, follow the advice of Twoapenny's grandmotherly T - tell it to F off and ignore it. After all, it's just a feeling and feelings pass or change - they are very ephemeral... and my particular set of feelings is some sort of leftover from the Twiggy days... and up till now, I've let them make decisions and control me. Time for an adult in that mental-emotional room, I think.
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that's a shame strategy that works for me Amber.
Oh and that old chestnut, comparison. It has its uses.
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((((((((((PR)))))))))
tt
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Yup, time for an adult, (((Amber)))
You're gonna be fine: )
Lighter
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So the work on this new theory begins; I had an interesting dream...
back in Twiggy's old house - only lots more rooms - and I was getting ready to "leave for the day" (as if my "shift" was over)... told my Dad 'bye and be good... and had to stop to lock all the doors... Heavy, wooden; painted that house's color of green - doors with elaborate sliding double latches that were difficult to work - to keep my Dad IN, so he wouldn't wander off or hurt himself. There were some other bizarre things in the dream... that I sorta feel were just thrown in for "effect"... the main symbol is that door. I don't ever dream about my Dad, and don't recall myself as Twiggy dreaming about him either.
I know if I just remember the dream - and wait long enough - the meaning of this will arrive in my brain.
Worked more, packing up MILs stuff yesterday. It's still hard. I still have a next morning grief reaction, but it's a welcome OK grief - there's a ton o' love mixed in with it. It was physical activity - "work" - which I can do without all the complicated crap that comes up with self-care. Usually, I can do physical work longer than a lot of people. I do take frequent breaks... one thing I've noticed is like a muscle spasm in my back whenever I'm doing something like this that has a lot of emotion involved. OK, it's hard not to notice it! It hurts. It comes up with cooking also, which makes no sense. As if I'm carrying around a couple hundred pounds on my back and shoulders while going about my task. Or expecting to be stabbed in the back... or something like this. But I will drive myself on & on, without eating even to exhaustion... until the task is complete... or complete enough for me. Same with working outside.
But self-care or things that feel good - even simple stretching - forgetaboutit! That's just not on the "list"... not allowed... don't deserve this... it's a "stupid" thing to do... 'coz we're all gonna get old, sick and die anyway or hit by a bus or tsunami... or so goes the "tape" in my head from the "good old days". I don't have a whole lot to debate this old tape with; but I do have what I learned with MIL... helping her recover from a stroke... get her strength back from major surgery for lung cancer... and how we coped with radiation, chemo drugs, and even her last illness. I do have the wacky ideas that I put out here, for Iz... and others... try this... maybe this will work.
MAYBE... what that old tape has turned into now... maybe that's one those "feelings" that got projected on me... that I internalized... and because it's associated with my body (and therefore, shame)... maybe that's why it's like the last, most stubborn piece to kick out of my life. HEY, I've left husbands for the same kind of crap.... so I'm really not understanding what the power of this particular thing is, over me. And one more idea has popped into my head:
what is the role of compassion - self-empathy (or it's other cousin, self-pity) in all this? Because, if I had to say what that message was... it was direct permission to neglect myself, over-indulge in foods that aren't healthy, lay around and do nothing physical... nothing with my body that "feels good".
That is strictly prohibited... and gets lumped into the "shame" category under the sub-head of "self pity"... or pampering myself... or thinking I deserve this - when of course, the wicked witch in my house wouldn't/couldn't do this for herself... and therefore, I wasn't allowed either. That "hurt' her... and it was "my fault"... I was bad and shameful... for really enjoying how my body felt - ice skating, wanting to learn ballet, running, climbing trees, rolling down a grassy hill in the sun, feeling myself attune to horses galloping into the wind. Oh, and she was jealous because I was tall and skinny, like a willow wand and just as flexible.
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I've been able to at least call a truce with the "mom in my head" about the things that she decided would happen after the rape. I can see her reasoning about the abortion makes some sense, given her mentality and my age. She really, really wanted me to prove that "girls are smart and successful and capable"... even as she gave me explicit messages to the contrary... stupid, clumsy, not good enough. She wanted me to do it - because she wanted to do this herself... and whatever her odd mental illness is... she couldn't. (weird - how that also fits in with projections...)
I can even even see that the "shame" she felt about what happened to me... she pushed that on me... and then tried to deny any of this ever happened - to protect herself from the feeling of shame... hoping against hope and even working hard to get me to forget it, too. It really was more than she could bear. I'd already seen her go through one nervous breakdown, when my grandma died... she came very close to another, in this time period. My mom simply fell completely apart when she felt any emotions. She felt them as physical assaults on her being. And yes, she'd fight and throw things like a 3 yr old having a temper tantrum any time she couldn't hold off any feelings. I saw this again 10 or so years ago.
My whole life, I've felt like she was somehow vicariously living through me... sending me to learn so that I could teach her how to fix herself... using me to interface with the world that she feared so much... forcing me to be two people - myself (which is the one that had to endure the negative messages) and her pawn, substitute, golom infused with all her projected crap giving me the quest of finding a solution to her "problem"... until I learned about boundaries, that is!! :D
I have a concrete, distinct memory of my mom giving me a bag of potato chips when I expressed an emotion... saying "here, eat all of these, it'll make you feel better - but you have to eat the whole bag." And telling me that's what people do with emotions. That was one of her beliefs that she projected... wanted me to believe too (to make it OK for her?)... something she stuck to me, as if I were the Tar Baby. It's NOT me, though. She also bitched furiously about how little I ate because I simply didn't have the appetite she did and couldn't eat those huge portions. I've already been through this... but I still must be missing something obvious as hell - so big I can't even see it.
Maybe that something big, is that she had such complete control of me - and I of course "gave up" and didn't tell her F off or that she was crazy or couldn't tell me what to do... I gave over all my own personal power to choose for me... I acquiesced; collaborated; cooperated - participated - in my own undoing... because it was the only path to survival that my kid mind could think of, at the time. Or MAYBE........
since in her mind, it was my Dad who was "so bad"... because he liked people, having fun, he liked to feel good - emotionally and physically... maybe in my dream, I was locking the door to keep him "in" because that's what my mom wanted... god forbid, since she couldn't/wouldn't allow herself to feel good - anyone else should. Maybe I should've left the door in my dream - unlocked - and given my idea of my Dad - my own ability to do things for myself that are healthy and feel good - FREEDOM.
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Guest: what do you mean about comparison? Can you finish that thought for me? Thanks!
Light, m'dear: I'm actually "feeling" OK... maybe kinda like I'm polishing a turd... a bit silly going through this yet again... but also like FINALLY there's some fresh air in a space that's been shut up against the light and is damp and musty. There's something "new", but I don't know what it is yet... some new energy... or pattern emerging. It's all good.
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Just messing here, fantasy wise, not sure it'd be any bit helpful, PR, but just in case...
She talks down to me - always gives me way more detail than I want or need, even though I've explained I do have some experience in the area we're discussing - and she always tries to "drive" the decision-making process. The conversations have been longer than necessary
I'd like to start our conversation today by expressing something that might help us work together better. And it would remove an obstacle for me, so we can all get more done in less time. It will take me just a minute to explain, would you be willing to hear me out?
I've been noticing that although I've mentioned I do have some ____ experience, I feel as though I'm receiving much more detail than I would like. I find that this can interfere with clarity, for me. I appreciate the knowledge you have and the information you provide, and I want to thank you for the effort you've been putting into that. But today, I'd like to request that you try to give me LESS detail. I want to take leadership of the decisionmaking for this dialogue, and this is how you could support me in that. Would you be willing to give that a try?
The other thing that hit me was about the back pain you've been feeling while:
1) packing up MIL's things
2) cooking
I could only think of how deeply intimate and domestic the packing is (and how much that would trigger feelings about being a daughter--DIL, same thing). And secondly...cooking...MIL's biscuits.
love to you, Amber--
Hops
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Amber:
It's interesting that you see yourself as the responsible person, but still a child, in that dream with your father.
Do you think that Twiggy ever wished that her father would come home, take over the duty of caring for the disordered mother, and let Twiggy leave the house/responsibility of safety to him?
Maybe Twiggy didn't want him to get in trouble, with your mother, for being outgoing and people loving?
Maybe Twiggy wanted him to stay inside, not upset the mother, and save himself (and her)?
Lighter
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Hi Amber
Guest: what do you mean about comparison? Can you finish that thought for me? Thanks!
Can't remember right now sorry Amber. Not good for much at the moment and you know what? That's okay too: it all is. Take care.
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OK - no problem, Guest! I have those flashes of inspiration that seem to go just as quick as they come, some days too.
Lighter... you're spot on all the suggestions on the dream, except maybe the last one. My Dad's mom was even worse than my mom... and when he stayed home, all my mom did was abuse him and twist the knife in the old wounds that his mom created initially. Even though he was the one drinking heavily - he was the domestic abuse target in the FOO... no one's ego could survive that unrelenting onslaught of criticism, invective, and projected "blame" and "shame" without fighting back, one way or another.
It probably infuriated him no end, when he finally couldn't take any more and lashed out (altho' in many cases mom swung first)... and then she hollared "abuse"... all while he simply wanted to come home to peace and quiet, to be comfortable and to rest and have his own space there... safe space.
Then, after he was gone, it seemed to me that I became the new target. Bro of course, being the golden child... and still inseparable from his mommy.
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Even though my mom tried to convince me I was "just like her" - and in her sick way tried to MAKE me just like her... I knew that my real self was a lot more like my Dad. I liked people and when I got past my anxious self-consciousness... I had fun with them. It's a real head-trip though... to realize that a part of me is like him (especially at that time, in those early teen years) and to have to listen to a constant propaganda stream of negativity about him... about how he was bad through and through.
The "bargain" was - to be able to live in my mom's house, I had to keep the parts of me that were like my Dad - locked up. Safe from becoming her target again.
And you know - I was really hurt and felt abandoned when he left and didn't take me with him. I totally feared what would happen being left with her. And then... all the rape trauma and all that... and I think all that made it through my fog in those days... was that my Dad was "bad". My Dad being - the bits of me that were like him. I did like feeling good... having fun... dancing. Maybe that's the source of this "shame" about doing things for myself that feel good... self-care things. Maybe.
My mom's BW thinking didn't have room for "and" statements: responsible adult "and" able to feel good and have fun... her version of martyrdom precluded any and all forms positive aspects of life. And she clung to this... as if she'd melt in sunlight and fresh air... into nothing. And she didn't/doesn't recognize that other people are able do this... that having fun and enjoying oneself and feeling good, doesn't mean one is a reprobate, degenerate, good-for-nothing, irresponsible slob.
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I wish your father had taken you with him, Amber.
I really really wish he had.
Lighter
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After all this "walking around" in all the old story cesspool...
I think what it all comes down to - is that I need to ignore the feeling of "shame" that comes up when I do something I need to do physically - enough times, that the feeling just goes away... the association with self-care activities is broken. Other feelings that show up as part of a rationalization or it's cousin: conditional thinking... shouldn't be allowed to take root and attach themselves to the activity, either.
And then, perhaps the way will be clear for physical work to actually impact those feelings once and for all. To make bigger, deeper changes... permanent ones.
(thanks to tt... for giving me another opportunity to talk this out!)
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Just did a re-read of my own thought process... so far.
The feeling of shame that comes up when I coerce myself into exercising, planning healthy meals... isn't just a pure single emotion. There's guilt mixed up in that - of being able to do something bioNic mom can't... there's also fear of being "caught" and the consequences... being made fun of, told I don't deserve it... of being called "greedy" and "selfish" and "egotistical" and "vain" for wanting to work off the pounds, look good, and be "normal"... having friends...
... like I'll somehow lose some "special status" of being unique, special and different... by losing the role and feelings that are leftover, clinging cobwebs... of that one warped, sick relationship in my life.
When you get right down to it - that's just a power-situation where my needs and wants aren't important - because compared to what bioNic mom wanted... what I wanted didn't matter.
She found ways to sabotage me... to make sure I didn't feel good... so that I would be absolutely DEPENDENT on her "approval" - which in the end was only given when I was meeting her needs and doing what she wanted. That is the "special status" that mattered... and anything else wasn't important... unless it threatened that special relationship.
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So... I've noticed that I have to constantly be putting something into my body: smoke, water, food... like there is an insatiable need that I'm trying to fill. I "have to" play puzzle games in situations where I'm forced to sit and wait so that I have something to prevent being bored, or people watching or becoming more and more impatient... and I choose to play the same puzzles as a way to return to center... to self-soothe... not think... activate R-brain's comfort and peace systems - equilibrium.
My "theory" is... that my physical needs for comfort, soothing, safety and calm... went unmet beginning very early on. And that those needs were attributed to character-flaws... rather than simple infant/toddler/child environmental requirements. I was given "substitutes" to placate me, keep me occupied, get me to be quiet & "go away"... rather than having my emotional and physical needs for touch, comfort and safety met. And that's how the confusion and merging of physical/emotional awareness happened... and why there is this wacked association between the two.
BioNic Mom's jealousy comes into play... her insistence that the world was a bad scary place and all the people in it trying to get one over on her... and that everything that was happy, fun, felt good would end badly - or was sinful - and most of all, didn't support her idea that catastrophe, doom and gloom, and self-abuse was the only "right" way to be. After all - if there was proof otherwise - why would I continue to mother her? So there is the built-in "time bomb"... the guilt, shame... for simply having fun, taking care of myself, feeling good.
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So, my brain mis-interprets physical - emotional sensations... and perhaps this is why I suffered so many psychosomatic symptoms from emotional distress. BioNic mom could address "physical" symptoms - here, eat this - but not emotional ones.
So... to put things right... my intuition about ignoring the emotional signals - shame, guilt, feeling foolish - for doing physical self-care (observation allowed - but not letting the emotion STOP me) might have some value.
Time to experiment!
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Oh, I would love to see you what you paint, if you were to paint, over the next few months, Amber: )
Lighter
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Amber
I "have to" play puzzle games in situations where I'm forced to sit and wait
I had to read this twice. Three times! Ahhh you mean puzzles on paper? Crosswords, suduko?
Whenever are you forced to sit and wait?
"Please take a seat and s/he'll be with you in a few minutes."
Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. The times I don't, those certain gatekeeper types, they don't like it. I've been told again to SIT more than once. And then of course, I won't. Unless I want to. Just fun. 8)
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Hi Guest...
maybe it's connected to the physical stuff... maybe not... but I'm like the world's worst "waiter". Doctors offices, a group of people (usually with small people) trying to get ready to go somewhere en masse... a) there's usually a tv on with a channel selection that makes me want to yell back at the tv... or there's obnoxious people who are oblivious to the rest of us, and how uncomfortable the rest of are due to yelling at kids - yelling kids - or one time, even a Mother-caregiver-son conversation that was a picture perfect example of my bioNic mom.
Paper puzzles are a last resort. When I was a kid there used to be these handheld number puzzles with sliding red/white squares and one empty space... but since hubs has introduced me to video games and I can now navigate the controls (which was why I was the last computer geek on earth to play these)... now I use a DS or iPod and play some variation of Bejeweled. Altho... I have to admit I am now getting hooked on Angry Birds - one slingshots these birds into building blocks trying to blow up silly looking pigs. It's kind of an Archimedes game... selecting the right angle and "lever" to bring the whole structure down... I think I like the silly noises the best... I never care about points; just getting the next level open.
Our last Dr appt, MIL noticed that I was frantically working my puzzle... we'd had a long wait in the waiting room; a struggle to get her there... and the reason for being there was vitally important: adjusting her coumadin dose... MIL leans over and says: You just can't sit still can you? I told her, no - not for long; my body does NOT like being in a chair and it doesn't feel good to sit so long... so I use the puzzles to kind of sedate it, give it (and my mind) a focus...
... I got "trained" in and accepted this technique for coping because it was better than the constant barrage of "leave that alone, get over here and sit down, what are you doing now..." or the unbearable physical restlessness I feel when forced to try to become comfortable in a chair... and the consequential admonition to "stop squirming"... while I stretched, shifted, tapped feet or fingers... waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting for it to be "my turn".
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When I was a kid there used to be these handheld number puzzles with sliding red/white squares and one empty space...
I remember those! I don't think I had the patience to solve them though. I haven't felt the need to learn new pc games...and i may not be fast or clever enough to play them. I'm not going to set myself up to fail all the time against angry birds! A difficult enough suduko is good enough for me.
(((((((Amber)))))))
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Huh... that's interesting Guest - I think I NEED to have these kinds of failures (during play)... to "prove" to myself that nothing bad happens.........
I won't get into my Rick Santelli-style rant about how as a society, we've become so failure-averse that we therefore aren't taking any risks whatsoever - and what the consequences of this are....
But for sure, on a personal level... part of my struggle can be overly-generalized into one of learning to take risks again and of understanding that failure isn't the "end of the world". And the fact is, if a game is too easy and I can blow through levels on the first shot - I get bored and stop playing.... looking for a bigger challenge. Or if there's a game that's poorly designed and no amount of skill is adequate to get the points or "gold stars" to move on... then I end up rejecting that one. I have a stack of games that after a few tries, just stopped interesting me. And mostly, I'm competing against myself or the computer... building skill and competency... not competing against other people.
Playing cards with hubs & MIL... it soon became obvious to everyone (including thick-headed me) that I often choose to make plays that aren't consistent with the statistical method of amassing the most points and "winning". Drove MIL crazy that I would just dig in my heels and make one of those plays - even when she gave me a chance to take my card back and make the better play. And guess what? I won just enough times with this method - and pure luck (running the odds) - that she started to see what I was doing.
To me, going for all the points every time, knowing that statistically this averages out to more wins, isn't interesting. I want to experiment and see what happens IF or WHEN... I want to know the impact of holding back a card and choosing a different timing... I'm just weird enough in how I think that I want to know how these other play patterns work and when/how they can be used to advantage... even against the undeniable success of the statistical method of playing to amass the most points. (There really isn't a way to quantify or define the randomness of "luck"...)
I guess, in my odd way, this is the mindset that made me vulnerable to self-sabotage and worse... and how I'm sometimes completely blind to the obvious. The reason for playing cards a certain way, even though occasionally another method method can succeed, is that overall it's consistently more often the "winning" method. Getting too obsessed with alternate methods means I miss the "point of diminishing returns"... because I'm "hoping".... that maybe THIS time... I'll get lucky and that worm-hole in the universe's space-time continuum opens and the other player's cards will fall into exactly the right pattern... and my wacked-out theory will succeed. Odd, isn't it, that those theories do succeed just often enough to keep that hope alive?
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So... I'm thinking today about how often and in how many different ways... those of us from extremely dysfunctional/abusive FOOs...
... go out of our way to choose inaction or paralysis, self-sabotage, even self-defeating life choices... because of some warped idea that this is the "responsible" thing to do... or because it avoids a conflict... or because we're afraid to stand up and say --
"THIS is what I want whether you like it or not and I'm ALLOWED to try to attain/achieve it".
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I'm also thinking about how some of our emotional blockages (and emotions associated with the statement above) are determined by those old, old traumatic moments trapped forever in our brain-wrinkles... and we forget to realize that the other characters in that "memory"... have grown older, changed, etc. and are no longer the same people we might've been "protecting" through our behaviors and choices... all this time.
And how we've also changed.
So the "present moment" - even when we try to untangle old dysfunctional crap with people from those stories - is completely different and all of the variables and conditions are different... even though not everyone will acknowledge this... particularly the N or borderline or psycho ones... and so they attempt to run the same old mind-games... guilt-trips... and even passive-aggressive strategies... EXPECTING us to respond in the same old, same old, role-patterns. So they can continue to control situations for their own purposes...
And since I'm on this roll this morning (due to a real life situation/decision) ... I'm going to wonder out-loud if the laws of nature and the universe would really even notice... IF I decided to act in a completely different way and decide that I will control the situation, instead... and that I won't be moved by the old strategies; no wounds - I know what to expect from the parties involved...
and say out loud, officially - this is what I want, and I'm allowed to want this and "make it so". And release any claim to control of anyone else's reactions... let the chips fall where they may, in other words.
In a very real way, I've been able to describe the "sick person at the center" that I've been kowtowing to... and people have heard me and agree... and are willing to help find solutions. It's kinda knocked my socks off and thrown my "reality" for a loop... and I'm trying to adjust. I know I'm not being fair, not "telling the story" with concrete details yet... to you all. I will get there. This is a damn big cliff I'm peering over... and could have immense consequences.
Risk is necessary... some risks can be anticipated and "controlled"... and plan Bs and backup systems in place... but there is no progress without some measure of risk.... and it's simply not possible to anticipate everything... and perhaps I'm just un-necessarily scaring myself with what-ifs... too. Magnifying...
I'm just tired of common sense and myself being "held hostage"... because I'm afraid of pissing you-know-who off.
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Hmmmm.... sounds like you might have a touch of the gambler's pock, Amber.
as usual....
very timely, for me.
Hope your d's doing OK.
Light
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I get playing the card patterns Amber. I don't play to win at all costs with other humans either (but I do beat the pc :D). I saw a 4 year old last weekend and got him to explain some toy to me. Apparently I do this so well, acting the dumb adult ('what's that for?'), that kids actually believe that I don't know the answer....hmm. As for failing games, only if it's obvious that it's too quick for me, or I'll get bored quickly.
I'm just tired of common sense
I'm just ....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....<sleeping emoticon>
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Hi Light... yes, she and the kids are adjusting pretty well. It helps that they're all in counselling right now. Here's something "odd" that my other D and I both recognized about her... she "sounds" more like "herself"... as in, the tone and timber and accent of her voice is her genuine authentic one... and doesn't have layers of stuff masking or pretending to be someone else. She's still very poor but has a subsistence job... but she also has a help network and is beginning to explore making plans for a better job/career.
Other D is also getting her act together... so I'm not holding my breath as much these days.
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Amber:
You really seem to be holding your own with regard to letting your girls handle what's theirs, while you handle on what's yours.
At least that's how you're coming accross on the board.
Question:
Do you lend support and suggestions only when asked for specifically for something?
Or.......
do you draw from your knowledge and experience, sharing bare minimum of what you see?
Do you ever regret your silence? Now or in the past?
Lighter
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Oh, I'll offer support when it makes sense... sometimes, I'm turned down or told "not yet". Both are gaining a real sense of their own boundaries... and my relationship with both of them (now) works for all of us. I'm trying only to open doors to possibilities for them, to increase their own confidence in themselves - not saying it's the right one, you know? That's up to them. But they also know Mom won't turn & run - won't abandon them.
LOL! there hasn't been a whole of lot of "silence" between my D's and me... there was a disruption in my relationship with the oldest, the one with kids now. It's still a mystery to me about what happened and why.... but I have told her how I felt.
But if you mean, do I regret the silence I kept with myself - about what I went through... (and am still going through)... how does one regret surviving? It's what I had to do.
But I don't have be silent anymore. I am allowed (and being encouraged to) protect myself and my interests from further dysfunctional crap... I have enough validation that I ought to be jumping up and down - yelling - SEE??? I'm not the crazy one!!!!
OTHER PEOPLE believe me now, you know? I'm still waiting for permission to believe my own self - that I'm ALLOWED to consider only my own best interests - without including excess consideration of the dysfunctional ones. (It's not like those people give a rat's about my interests, you know?)
Tip-toe........ through the eggshells....
I'm too old for that sh** these days.
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In fairness to my inner and past selves...
I guess that I probably DO need a lot of validation, reassurance and encouragement... to believe that it's OK to act in my own self-interest without overcompensating and eggshell dancing around other's interests (since when have I been able to accurately predict what those disputed issues might be ANYWAY??) My experience has been that I've paid a very high price every time I attempted to act in my own self-interest (though granted, the "experiences" are based on selective memory...)***
But, "experience" is based on a whole complex set of criteria - a past "present moment" with millions of variables - so to always believe that past experience can be applied to present situations... and that those actions <--> reactions will be consistent with past experience... is well, a rather "primitive" belief. Sort of like believing magic spells that are based on something belonging to a certain person will have an effect on that person. The fear-based "experience" of our brains extrapolates that past experience and projects it on a completely new set of variables... when only one or two of the criteria match between the present situation and the past. Completely missing all the differences... discounting them... dismissing them, even... therefore, not even accounting for them...
... and then those amygdala brain systems engage emotions... and ZOOM... we're off on a re-run of a past situation - in our experience, anyway. Replaying the old emotional audio-video tape... the old roles... probably making the same mistakes... and yet still hoping for a completely different result. But, this is one of the more primitive parts of our brains - three fries short of a happy meal in the cognition and meaning and understanding department. It's not one of the more "higher functioning" parts of our brain.
We have to rely on other parts of our brain (that aren't emotionally stimulated) to intervene and say: "Hold up... that "snake" isn't moving... and look: it has 2 maybe 3 "arms" or branches... oh DUH... it's just a stick" before we are able to send the order to the self-defense troops to stand down; false alarm. And then it takes some time for the adrenalin to drain down to normal levels, the shakiness to wear off... and to be able to laugh at how we scared ourselves.
There are states of consciousness that are less susceptible to this re-run (or triggered emotion) effect. A sense of being present in and aware of one's body and the more all-encompassing awareness of meditative states, for example. Both use breathing awareness to put the brakes on the runaway amygdala train LONG ENOUGH that other parts of the brain can get alerted that they need to participate in the process... and can head off the primitive fear-based self-defense parts of the brain before the false alarm is sounded.
***
It is ironically fascinating that my memory likes to store those past experiences that didn't go well more often than the experiences that did... and assign way more importance to them, than the probably zillions more experiences I've had that were a lot more pleasant. A morbid fascination, I guess, with learning the "don't ever do that again" lessons... or perhaps, it's the impact of trauma (and for me, the ming-boggling emotional-trauma aftermath that made things so much worse)... that temporarily "broke" the communication system between the parts of my brain that gives the "stand down" orders to the amygdala...
... and I jumped to the wrong conclusion; I assumed that once broken - always broken; and that the old experience of trying to survive (act in my own self-interest) would have serious, awful consequences.
There is also an attachment issue here... an infant cries in discomfort (acting in it's own self-interest)... and when the response is neglect, isolation, or angry and resentful treatment... that infant internalizes the "never do that again" lesson of very bad results when acting in one's own self-interest.
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We are more than our brains and emotions; we also have a physical body. It stands to reason, for me at least, that if my brain and emotions can elicit physical sensations in my body... that it should also work the other way 'round - like in my example of being centered and aware of my body... like Iz's nerve-related gnashing & clattering of teeth - those are electrical signals that contain "data"... the brain is just the central processing server... and all the nerves, muscles and sensations of the body send their data to that "server"...
... and it's just possible, maybe, that if I can generate enough physical "feel good" sensations over a long enough period of time - food, exercise, proprieception, comfort - maybe this will ultimately nudge my selective memory over into a focus on more pleasant memories... and let go of the bad ones... and make it easier for me to engage in what is in my self-interest, more angst free.
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Amber, hope it's okay if I quote an earlier post and comment:
"THIS is what I want whether you like it or not and I'm ALLOWED to try to attain/achieve it".
I get this, but it is very difficult for some of us to know what we want. It's much easier to know what is 'right'. Perhaps that's what we 'want'.
IF I decided to act in a completely different way and decide that I will control the situation,
are you sure you can even try and control it? I know what to expect from the parties involved...
that sounds like a big help. I find it very difficult to know what to expect.
and say out loud, officially - this is what I want, and I'm allowed to want this and "make it so". And release any claim to control of anyone else's reactions... let the chips fall where they may, in other words.
I'm all for letting chips fall where they may. That's life. And you presumably didn't make the situation happen all by yourself, so let others do as they may.
In a very real way, I've been able to describe the "sick person at the center" that I've been kowtowing to... and people have heard me and agree... and are willing to help find solutions. It's kinda knocked my socks off and thrown my "reality" for a loop... and I'm trying to adjust.
I guess when we stop adjusting we stop living, to an extent?
This is a damn big cliff I'm peering over... and could have immense consequences.
Who is going to die Amber? (Well we all are.) Will the consequences include genocide? That's what i meant about the usefulness of comparison.
Risk is necessary... some risks can be anticipated and "controlled"... and plan Bs and backup systems in place... but there is no progress without some measure of risk.... and it's simply not possible to anticipate everything... and perhaps I'm just un-necessarily scaring myself with what-ifs... too. Magnifying...
see above. :)
I'm just tired of common sense and myself being "held hostage"... because I'm afraid of pissing you-know-who off.
Somebody, somewhere is gonna be pissed off no matter what we do. Anyway, it's not about what they feel, it's about what we 'want'..or what is 'right'..or perhaps you could put that much better than me?
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Thanks Guest! Seeing those statements together (and your comments) does help. I need to clarify what I mean about "control" of the situation. And instead of "comparison" I would use the phrase "relative significance"... to put something into perspective. The word comparison didn't register in my overly complex (!) way of thinking about things.
Control isn't the right word. I know better than to think I can "make" people do things!! I know better than to believe I can control other people or even processes - which most of the time develop a life of their own. What I mean, is to become active in a situation (knowing what I want and taking the necessary steps to get what I want). Or maybe control is right - but the object of the control is my own self. With FOO members, I am overly, unnecessarily inhibited... always seeking permission, approval, their "blessing" - and most importantly avoidance of being the target of anger and disapproval... for anything I am, say, want, or do. It's like a classic Freudian COMPLEX... and fear is the active ingredient in all that. Fear that somehow - even now - the results will end up being same and the FOO crap will continue and the perpetrator will "get away with it". AGAIN.
It's the very fundamental difference of thinking and acting and strategizing from a defensive posture - to an offensive one. My defensive strategies have all been passive and self-destructive at the worst and self-limiting, in it's most benign form (to manage my own impulsive anger, I think). The whole context of the situation changes when I create the "landscape" and actively initiate changes that I want... and while I need to be aware that not all the results of that activity are predictable, many of them can be accounted for in advance... and even responses planned for. I am not powerless; I have every right to my own power... and if, in exercising that power a conflict develops... by now, I should be reasonably comfortable in my ability to find and establish a compromise. I've created a lot of win-win solutions, in my day.
So... the difference between "want" and "right"... this part I do get, Guest. And there is a clear path down off that cliff, even though there are some slippery rock falls in places and gaps to be jumped over. And one thing I know from painful experience is that "right" is almost always seen differently between myself and the FOO-trapped folks. I've ALWAYS let someone else's RIGHT prevail... and not stood up for my own. And that choice has always permitted their RIGHT to hold sway - and "control" situations. Still does, in fact. And in my SELF - I still feel it's taboo to challenge that; create that conflict; take the risk on my own right - place my bet on myself, in other words. I am the one being "controlled" here... you know?
That changed, when I realized - duh, finally! - there's no real important relationship that I'm putting at risk here; not anymore. There hasn't been, for years and years - except in my own thoughts. So, let the chips fall where they may... I'm not responsible for other people's emotional equilibrium... and if my right "offends" them... well - like I've been told so many times: they'll just have to get over it. There is always a compromise - but compromise isn't defined as me always acquiescing to someone else's point of view of what "right" is.... giving up for the sake of "peace" - because there really isn't any peace gained by that.
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Thanks Amber, I feel we're at similar places in some ways so your posts are helping me. When you say "there's no real important relationship that I'm putting at risk here" that resonates. I've been thinking the same for some time. In fact I'm seeing all sorts of relationships in slightly different (and very different, in some cases) lights. I get what you mean about control. Reminds me of learning the difference (grey areas, assertiveness) between being acquiescent and aggressive.
I guess peace is being in harmony with ourselves. And that includes knowing what we want....what we think is 'right' and what we think is wrong. Just a few thoughts there. Back to spring cleaning.
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Quote: "I asked, what I thought was a simple yes - no question and what I got back from her was a continuous stream of information and regulation that she was obviously reading. "
--My first reaction is she doesnt know and that is why she is reading instead of answering your question. Just my reaction to your description.
Hi Amber. I really have absolutely zero thoughts about anything right now. I just felt like posting a Hello mainly.
HI!
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Hi, rockin' boat...
The last thing I posted here about active/passive mindsets... ways of seeing the world and how I fit into it... well, one of the things that results from "really getting it" about what I said, is that I'm feeling a little playful now... I was reading how you're starting to explore this too. Wanna play? What should we play?
Maybe we could start a just for fun thread... like maybe I could try to teach you to play piano on a thread (I used to teach faculty how to use online ed... and music was resistant to the medium for a while - but not anymore!!). Something simple at first - like twinkle twinkle little star, you know? It's just an idea... (but yeah, I think I can back this up... and connect the physical arrangement of keys to notes in sheet music... and sound...) Then again - I've always wished I could just sit down and play free of the constraints of sheet music. I can't "jam" because that's spontaneous (big problem for anal me...) and so I'm limited to what's on the paper in front of me. Some of the best jazz and blues pianists couldn't read music... they just "felt" it. My D can do this - but she can sing, too... and I absolutely can't - LOL - cats and dogs howl when I try to sing! But I still do in the car.
Guest - I'm glad my "inner mumblings" inspire some ideas for you. Peace... serenity... isn't an empty place for me, or at least not all the time. Many times it's full and free and big groups of people making chaos and fun... things I often shy away from and deny myself. And I've got this "feeling" - that's all it is - that it's not a good idea for me to classify my wants into right or wrong. My actions and words, sure. My intentions that I'm acting on. But my "wants" - all of them are part of who I am at some all-inclusive level - and I'm still getting to know that person. Accepting her. And listening carefully.... because she still mostly is afraid to say "I want"... and name it. How can a "want" be "wrong" anyway? It only exists in the mind-world... not the real world... it's an idea with a feeling attached to it... and I'm becoming persuaded that right/wrong is completely totally irrelevant when trying to apply this to feelings.
Right and wrong, for me - only exist in relationships and external actions in the physical world. In my inner world, these categories aren't necessary and definitely aren't functional - if anything, trying to apply right-wrong there helps create my inhibited, yes-sir-how-high-sir, whatever you want sir habit of relating to the world. It helps sustain the paralysis... and helps sustain the illusion that the cliff of choosing to act on what I want (assuming of course, I'm not a "bad" person and what I want is legal and fair) - the illusion is scarier and more dangerous, which helps reinforce the paralysis.
Right and wrong spawn "shouldas", "couldas" and "wouldas"... and I think might be behind many rationalizations and conditional thinking, too. At least in my observations of how my particular warped inner world works! Your mileage and journey may vary.
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Yes, okay Amber I see what you mean.
In my world I guess I clung to my rights and wrongs because so many people around me didn't have any morality or their morality was very warped - or so it seemed. So mine was a rock. Maybe I should let it go? Maybe for me it would be a change not to stand up for my rights? Just go with the flow. My teeth are gritted at the thought! (I know what going with the flow really means and I enjoy doing it, but it has a secondary meaning here for me which is hippy-dippy take-no-responsibility-for-anything and 'don't have any opinions' abusive kind of game.)
Of course feelings are not right or wrong. I think maybe I misunderstood where you're going with the wants?
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Ya know, Guest... the type of misunderstandings we're having is proving to be quite helpful to me! I hope it is for you too. Maybe it'll help desensitive me to the potential for "conflict", too. Lower my anxiety about it... I mean.
After reading your last post, I kinda left it to germinate a bit. And while going about normal day... this thought just barges right into my head... completely out of context with anything I was thinking or doing at that moment:
the REASON - the "why" - behind why I struggle with self-care, and always retreat into withdrawal or self-abuse whenever engaged in something emotional... is quite simply because this is how my mother responded to my emotional needs. That's it - nothing fancy... or complex... it's what I was used to... and so I mothered myself the same way - either heaping insult on injury or total neglect. I guess it was the beelzebub I knew... and because everything "normal" felt so strange and unfamiliar and awkward... I might give it a try or experiment with it for a little bit... but then any amount of stress (good or bad) would send me right back to the old familiar "ways".
But there isn't any solution in that type of mothering... no comfort... no meeting emotional needs... it's not effective, in other words. And I've not been able to separate physical care (or abuse) from those emotional needs... because - duh - my mom didn't. And so it always appeared that I didn't trust myself - and wouldn't commit myself - to basic long-term physical changes... when I did force myself to make an attempt to exercise, quit smoking, eat better food, etc. It APPEARED that way, because what I was really seeking - and couldn't clarify for myself; didn't understand - was that I was trying to meet an emotional need... with food or cigarettes... MORE COFFEE!
I know to a lot of folks here - this is like a given; but for me and the way I finally "saw" this - it's a total revelation. Sure my brain knew this... but my body didn't... and so my pavlovian physical cells kept on demanding the same old responses to emotional upset, concern or needs even when my WANT and my brain kept telling me it didn't make any sense. My body doesn't have sense enough to "want" what's good for it... because it was never trained to. It was trained on the self-destructive bullet train to hell.
Because doing that was safer - for me... my mom wasn't jealous or angry or accusing me of thinking I was better than... her.
So I guess I'm ready to move to the other topic rattling around my head - the mind-body connection in healing. It's been tugging at me for a while but I felt there was something still in the way... and I think it might be this odd connection of bad physical things and out & out neglect, being used to bandage, coverup, disguise - emotional wounds or holes or needs that was the problem.
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I've not been able to separate physical care (or abuse) from those emotional needs... because - duh - my mom didn't.
Badda-bing! Kudos, PR.
Only if I edited the entire world (still reading the Help Wanteds) I'd take out the "duh" because you are NOT stupid, and it is a recognition that is as slippery as a two-days gone guppy.
For a lot of humans. For a lot of brilliant, cerebral, fluent, educated folks. For a lot of people with common sense, poor-luck life all over their faces, wisdom from having wanted and let go.
Ain't no "duh". What was modeled for you was what made sense and you learned it well. And you are UNlearning it just as well, which is what makes your journey such an exciting one.
School, backward.
hugs,
Hops
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Question:
which is what makes your journey such an exciting one.
for whom, Hops?
Exciting?
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Aw, hell Guest...
I'm still such a reassurance and approval seeker I spill my guts here about where/what I'm doing... Hops (et al) has always been my champion for my small breakthroughs and revelations... so it's probably exciting for both of us when I can report some progress in my "un-learning", as Hops calls it. These days, any good news (for me) stands out as more significant than it probably is in the great scheme of things... because there just seems to be so much negativity out there in the wide world.
And more good news:
It seems my Ds are breaking the repetition of the impacts of abuse in their own lives - becoming amazons themselves. Even the one who recently left an abusive husband seems to have "woken up" from a long, boundary-less, self-destructive trance... and is more solidly herself and navigating her own path to a smoother life highway, than I've ever seen her. This "un-learning" stuff is powerful and has a lot of positive "unintended consequences". Or so I'm hoping, anyway...
It's been a very, very long time since I've had something positive to validate in this D... and that's a wonderful new experience. She was quite dangerous for me in the past and I'm still wary - but there are beginning to be buds of trust develop that just couldn't be allowed to bloom before... because she always broke them off. That's changing, in a genuiine way. She's building her SELF now...
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Yay! Yay!
Very cool post, Amber: )
I'm so glad your D's are stepping into their Amazon slippers.
Lighter
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I am reading this thread but I only get snippets of time and I find your writing so evocative that I get frustrated (caught in a tangle of perfectionism - wanting to read it all before I comment and losing some threads of thought by the time I get through and finding so much in each of your paragraphs - my overload brain is not able to order it all and ... - well you get my drift.)
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S'OK GS...
I suspect that all this was the long way to getting to confidence in my intuitive feeling that I can be "less attached" to the emotional parts of my story - less caught up in that side of it - so that I can begin the next phase: dealing with all the physical stuff and that mind-body thread I talked about a few weeks - or was it months? - ago. You've got time to process my yakking...
I've got some tummy bug and a new business project... and it'll be a little bit before I'm ready to dive into the next phase. For now, just playing and celebrating a little... even tho' I am under the weather.
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Thanks for the explanation Amber, which I understand.
Hops, no need to reply, Amber explained 'exciting' pretty well.
It's not a word I use much, and i wouldn't use it in this context at all, but, you know, language and all that.
Sorry to hear about your bug Amber and hey, celebrate if you can. Why the heck not?!
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I'll explain my problem with 'exciting'. Who knows, something may come of it. To me it suggests investment, a sharing companion on the journey, so sharing that this is a companion who knows your mind, who is part of it with you, who knows it as well as you do (or thinks they do) - and that, is impossible, to me, because of my particular worldview. Noone knows another's mind that closely. To want to know someone that closely reminds me of things that were very dysfunctional.
Now Hops! You did not say that, I know that. This is my own personal vibe from a few simple words. Those words are still in my head, for good reason.
Well at least I know what I'm talking about.
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Guest,
I think you have a good point and I can understand the boundary-invasion that word suggested.
I sense there's truth here so thank you for saying it.
Hops
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I know what you're talking about, as well.
For me, it's the words love and intimacy... of all things... that's associated with the over-close, projecting, controlling and self-denying/destroying memories of what can be lumped together into the category of "boundary intrusion". And it SUCKS. I'm fortunate that hubby is an understanding patient man. He whines about this a lot... understandably. He's allowed... while I keep working on removing the old pattern of association of that kind of emotional abuse from a LONG TIME AGO... and reminding my brain's auto-fear reflexes that this is a completely different situation, different circumstances and different people involved.
It's slow work. But I imagine that one day, it'll pay off... like the day I "decided" that a good percentage of what I was calling "anxiety" - and experiencing as a "bad thing"... was really excitement - which is a happier, anticipatory looking forward to... instead of fear and dread. But that I'd been "trained" to see those feelings in that negative light (probably because my emotions were inconvenient or unsettling to the bioNic mom)... and because I wasn't allowed to have boundaries, where my feelings might differ from bioNic mom's... I didn't get to decide which side of the yin/yang equation the feeling really was, you know?
But now I do. The interesting thing to me, is how both of those feelings are experienced in body sensation and are almost identical... and it's only the positive/negative association of my mind (and that fuzzy emotional "decider") which determines which one I'm feeling. I suspect - that because it wasn't possible for bioNic mom to understand that people can feel BOTH the positive/negative versions of that feeling at one time (which I know I did/do)... she insisted on "naming" my emotional state the single one she experienced. This is the functional aspect of what cognitive psych calls "reframing", I guess. And reframing can go either way...
To me it suggests investment, a sharing companion on the journey, so sharing that this is a companion who knows your mind, who is part of it with you, who knows it as well as you do (or thinks they do) - and that, is impossible, to me, because of my particular worldview. Noone knows another's mind that closely. To want to know someone that closely reminds me of things that were very dysfunctional.
What you wrote, Guest, describes for me what I know I absolutely long for - and fear - at the same time. Yes, I have one set of memories of a specific time period... where I experienced the dysfunctional side of this. Later, I had problems letting my girls grow up, individuate, and separate from me (much better now)... because I had no language, no defined experience of "boundaries". In fact, I was convinced boundaries weren't supposed to exist in intimate relationships - because of bioNic mom's training. So I couldn't understand - and drove myself crazy; stressed myself out - wondering what was wrong with me because I just wasn't comfortable with that much closeness.
But at the same time, another part of me is 24/7 seeking out exactly that kind of "oneness" or closeness... because the dysfunctional kind interrupts and prevents the positive version of that - the "attunement" of mother to child, who knows exactly what the child needs and provides it in a pleasant, comforting, protective way. That "attunement" - that level of intimacy - can exist in a positive, respectful of boundaries, way between two people. My hubby said one day, when I was talking about boundaries... that sure, fences make good neighbors... but fences have gates in them and those good neighbors are invited through the gate or are free to pass through the gate, without going through a TSA patdown. (did I get lucky with hubs or WHAT???? how many men would actually "get this"????)
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I'm glad I made some sense, thanks Hops and Amber. I was thinking some more on it, and imagining a journey as a spectator sport (in a good way). There would be watching, occasional cheering and yes, some feeling of investment, empathy with the lows and so on. The problem (in my mind) happens when the subject very slightly becomes an object: at which point that might happen (and I'm not saying it happens here at all, this is theory in progress :D), at the point when it might happen is when the observer becomes too involved in the outcome? Expectation and investment turn empathy back to the self to fulfil something for the observer? I think I might be talking about something that happens every day, which i can certainly feel myself doing (say in a simple convo where I'm genuinely interested in the speaker's story but a subtle shift and I'm then changed to (say) wanting to solve their problem. The problem becomes the focus and it ignores the subject....who becomes an object problem-carrier I guess. It's about attention and self-attention and that's not easy to maintain. Ha. Not that i know much about it but that's how it seems.
Interesting what you say about excitement/anxiety Amber. i think i can get what you mean. I can generally tell the difference but can imagine not doing so. I'm happy to not completely know another's mind! But very happy to get know one person very well, and perhaps a few more well enough. Attunement works for me. :)
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I am replying to your first post, that portion in which you are writing about your conversation.
I take such great comfort in knowing that you have strong reactions to such daily life incidents. At times, I feel so alone in my reactions.
After that description you move into a conversation about a wounded infant and how the reaction to the wounding is met with even more wounding. I have been aware of such a dynamic for some time. Just teh thought of it causes me grave pain - I feel my inner most being roaring in agony just thinking about it.
A phrase that has been rolling around in my brain for some time is that there are some threads that I want to cut but they are made up of so many fibers and each of the fibers needs to be cut one at a time and yet it is so very difficult to isolate the individual ones. I think they are each made up of events like the one described in the thread I stared yesterday.
I want to access those and even though I believe I know how to get there, the actions that it will take themselves seem kept from me in much the same way as the writing was kept from that person. It all seems to fall in on itself - in a way that the very healing things that I can access evoke pain and horror like that Miss Silver.
I have no doubt that my father made certain that any safe harbor was kept from me or was punished in some way. That is part of that intentionality factor that was revealed to me days before his death. I suppose it is not unlike in function (though not scale) of the Lybian woman who burst into the hotel room with international journalists to report her rape and she is now being punished more severely (if possible) for trying to get justice brought to herself and others in Libya. Seeking justice evoke more pain and punishment. That makes it very difficult to free the mind from this bind.
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Guest:
I'm quite happy to get to know you and how your mind processes things - your worldview - what makes you YOU. Like I said previous, even our misunderstandings are quite interesting! I enjoy seeing things from someone else's shoes... I know my perception is limited to my own predisposition and mindset... that's not always a good thing, limitations and all, you know? But I don't often find someone with the patience to explain to me what I've misinterpreted or misunderstood - without all the consequent offense and insult.... and getting too personal.
I do appreciate this give & take.... (((((Guest)))))
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My dear GS,
When you're ready, we'll start exploring that attachment theory stuff - infants, bonding, moms, and unintentional emotional abuse. It sounds like you've enough on your plate dealing with the intentional stuff, right now. When you're ready, I'm gonna have a lot to say... tho most of it is already here in this thread.
Little by little, gradually, over time... I'm letting go of bitterness, blame, justice seeking, revenge, and anger... and forgiving myself for not being THEN who I am NOW - and knowing what I know now. It's been a fuzzy, convoluted process - foggy - and I've stumbled more times than I've gained a foot of progress - rough terrain, you know?
There isn't any "right way" to do this. The way I did... was the way I did. It's not special and doesn't have anything to recommend it. You'll find your way, too. You'll find, probably, that while the pain doesn't necessarily "go away"... one gets used to it. OH THAT AGAIN... YAWWWWWN. Sort of like re-runs of House Hunters...
So it's important to focus on YOU. Not your Dad - not your mom. Not on what THEY did/didn't do. Believe it or not, it doesn't matter now. Now, it's all up to you and you are ALREADY FREE to do what you need/want to do. (yes, I was stubborn and really, really pissed and it took me a LOOOOOnnng time to get that). And it's OK that you didn't notice... hey! that's what pavlovian programming is all about, you know? I oughta know... sigh!!
Focus on YOU, kiddo - not them; not what they did or didn't do. You are smart, strong, resiliant and determined. Put them out of your mind... and perhaps they'll "get out of your way" too.
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Guest:
I'm quite happy to get to know you and how your mind processes things - your worldview - what makes you YOU. Like I said previous, even our misunderstandings are quite interesting! I enjoy seeing things from someone else's shoes... I know my perception is limited to my own predisposition and mindset... that's not always a good thing, limitations and all, you know? But I don't often find someone with the patience to explain to me what I've misinterpreted or misunderstood - without all the consequent offense and insult.... and getting too personal.
I do appreciate this give & take.... (((((Guest)))))
Interesting Amber! Thanks for that. I've been working on my patience for a verrry long time :lol:
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Hi Guest,
This quote has captured my thoughts for the last couple of days.
In my world I guess I clung to my rights and wrongs because so many people around me didn't have any morality or their morality was very warped - or so it seemed. So mine was a rock.
I don't want to hijack PR's thread with my own rabbit trail so I'm going to start another thread for discussion about it.
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PR - attachment throery stuff - not so much in the formal theoretical sense but in the way it comes up out of each of us. The focus on "Mother" or "father" is only so much as they have taken up residence in me, rather than the humans those words attach to.
I like that part about letting go of bitterness, et.al.
I understand that while I have worked on that off and on for some time that now, for me, my approach is more in the direction of that story I posted in a different thread, by making room for those sqelching memories to arise rather than attacking the bitterness, anger, etc as an issue.
I feel some true relief in getting to this point, where I see the approach, even without the experience of the healing. It has been an absurdly long journey to even get here. Would that it could have been shorter by decades. Would that I could help some human being, any human being shorten their journey. Would that be something like cracking a shell for a chick which needs to chrack it's own shell? I don't know. Part of my soul just aches because noone helped me but being alone and without help is both part of the wounding and part of the legacy. I wouldn't wish it on any human - not any.