Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gaining Strength on March 20, 2011, 12:14:51 PM
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I am starting this topic as a dual discussion of the role of intentionality in the degree of damage done by the N in comparision to the damage done unintentionally in a general sense AND of the role in my own (and I hope in your own) life in particular.
As I move through and into the aftermath of my father's death and life I am gleening a difference between the Narcissism of my father and my mother. Much of my father's psychological brutality came from intentional manipulation (in his own word "intiimidation") but in contrast it is being revealed to me that much of the damage from my mother's narcissism comes from her unintentionally and from her utter refusal to take responsibility for herself or others and, at times, the combination of the two. For reasons I cannot yet understand, the damage from her is more provacative than the damage from my father. Though I do experience the damage from my father daily. I experience it in a number of ways including the expectation and anticipation of criticism and rejection (and humiliation) and the internalized perfectionism that results in my in a paralysis of which I have written more here in these pages than I care to even admit.
I do know that as that source becomes more and more evident that it will indeed begin a process of dissolving, (however fast or slow it may be it will not be fast enough.) The great gift of this post-mortem process is that my fear of never being able to access the part of me that functions and longs to function is fast subsiding and true hope is growing stronger that I will at long, long last be able o actualize those things and interests that have been mere longings in my soul and the ruinous, abandoned, impetuous attempts to participate in this earthly life in any meaningful way.
It has been such a long and painful journey - no words or even stirrings can come close to conveying. But what better time of year than this for these beginnings. It is no coincidence but also no contrivance that I am writing this on the first day of spring.
I look forward to many long musings and working out of splinters (rather than whole logs) here across the days, weeks and months ahead. I hope that as many of you as are moved to will join in writing about your own experiences of intentional or unintentional damage or any thoughts you might have about the topic - in general or in particular. Yours, GS
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Hi GS,
in comparision to the damage done unintentionally in a general sense
Do you mean the unintentional damage done by non N's who are doing their best to do life right in the general population?
tt
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... I will at long, long last be able o actualize those things and interests that have been mere longings in my soul and the ruinous, abandoned, impetuous attempts to participate in this earthly life in any meaningful way.
You will, GS... I know you will. Remember, tho - small steps add up to the whole journey to a specific destination, so don't set your own inner "success/failure" meter for each day based on what the ultimate goal is... when I do that, I tend to self-criticize myself for failing when the process is simply not at the point where it can be judged success/failure.
One tends to miss a whole lot of important stuff along the way, "one" here being my ownself.
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Dear GS,
What a lovely post, and a really deep subject, one I have thought about too.
a difference between the Narcissism of my father and my mother. Much of my father's psychological brutality came from intentional manipulation (in his own word "intiimidation") but in contrast it is being revealed to me that much of the damage from my mother's narcissism comes from her unintentionally and from her utter refusal to take responsibility for herself or others and, at times, the combination of the two. For reasons I cannot yet understand, the damage from her is more provacative than the damage from my father.
I have often thought that a lack of responsibility is like the magician's 'slieght of hand', in other words, the one that 'fails to take responsibility' somehow causes things, but it doesnt exactly look like it was their fault, but I think that enabling, and failing to take a stand, or be responsible is just as much being a participant as the manifest behaver. Often the 2 are in collusion. And where one is out and in the open, somethimes physical, the other is more hidden, or is 'closet' and I suspect can get under the defences all the more.
My mother was a 'closet narcissist' in the definition of Masterson, and one of the ways I was driven to deal with the affects of this was that I 'fell in love' with the outrageous, chaotic blatent narcissistic kinds. I found the hidden destruction was so pernicious that this was a p;sychic attempt to 'out' the toxic dynamic, into the open. In the end, of course toxic dynamic is toxic no matter whether hidden or blatent. but i was driven and inconsolable, driven by a splinter that I didnt understand, and i wanted to 'out'.
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My mother was a 'closet narcissist' in the definition of Masterson, and one of the ways I was driven to deal with the affects of this was that I 'fell in love' with the outrageous, chaotic blatent narcissistic kinds. I found the hidden destruction was so pernicious that this was a p;sychic attempt to 'out' the toxic dynamic, into the open. In the end, of course toxic dynamic is toxic no matter whether hidden or blatent. but i was driven and inconsolable, driven by a splinter that I didnt understand, and i wanted to 'out'.
River--
Thank you for this.
Wow.
You are a rocket, woman. I can't remember what you're studying (majoring in) but whatever it is, you're going far.
xo
Hops
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Hops, that made me smile ~ and tear up a bit too~!
r.
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Quick idea for ya, GS... I don't have much time this a.m.
The "unintentional" damage is much worse because it's:
- harder to see
- the opposite of the words coming out of X person's mouth
- and from a person that under all circumstances, all the time... we are programmed to expect and belief and trust will have our best interests at heart (obviously, the programming can have "bugs" in it)
- this amounts to a betrayal; a loss; and that weird feeling in the pit of one's stomach that we feel when we find out we've been tricked; or cheated; or violated.
"Intentional" is slightly easier... because it's straightforward "intimidation"... it's not got this brass knuckles in a velvet glove deceit going on...
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TT - what I am thinking about has to do with what I am learning about the difference between the way my two parent's Nism manifested and the difference in the damage done by each. My father had a large factor of intentional cruelty and intimidation, my mother functions more like a narcissistic child - not calculating but self-absorbed none-the-less.
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river - your post is painful for me to read. I so deeply connect with what you are writing. It feels like such wretched, inconsolable injustice to me. I would like to read more and moe of what you have to say about your experience or your thoughts on this subject.
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Pr, pr, pr - you are so, so right.
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Thanks GS, for helping me understand. I'm thinking on it...
tt
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OK GS... your turn!
Can you elaborate yet? Put words to your experience and how important the difference is for you? (and I guess I mean, how the difference is important for you... not the other way round)
I think the difference is important for me, too... and I'm wondering what insights you've gotten so far. For my part, I seem to be fighting the same battle, struggling with the same thing, over & over & quixotically over yet again. So many times, I gain another inch of insight from how you see your own struggles...
WHY is it, it's so much easier to see "what to do", the explanation, or the solution... when it's someone who is not ourselves? I think someone did a study on this... and it's supposed to be (presumed to be) a fairly common human trait.
TIA (thanks in advance)
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river - your post is painful for me to read. I so deeply connect with what you are writing. It feels like such wretched, inconsolable injustice to me. I would like to read more and moe of what you have to say about your experience or your thoughts on this subject.
Gosh, thank you so much for this. Would it be helpful for you to say more about how its painful for you?
Actaully, I do have a long-held desire to write about all this type of thing one day, but how I'd like to do it is by collections of people speaking of their experiences, and I wanted to ask you if I could keep your post for a potential writing one day? As what you're saying here is, I think important.
Theres a quote here, which may have some bearing too....
“It is true that the damage from not being protected is often greater than the damage of sexual assault”. p.174 in Protecting the Gift by Gavin Debecker
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Oh goodness PR - how the difference is important to me is a good question. I'm not sure where to start - with your question or what I came here with on my mind. Maybe I'll simply intertwine them.
I have a day off - my precious child is visiting my sister-in-law and her children in FL. We are having a cold snap and I am snuggled up in an empty, quiet Starbucks.
I just received a text from my FL brother that he has received a shipment of furniture and 6 boxes from my late father's wife. She lives right behind me. I can see her house from mine. She never mentioned a word of this to me. I know one of the piece of furniture is a desk in which I had carefully place several items that I wanted and mentioned it to her as I did so over a series of days and weeks.
I have come to see that dealing with her is much like dealing with both of my parents. She is a dreadful mix. Part of what she does in intentional and part is oblivion. All is without regard or concern of those around with a self-smug attitude that she is doing "FOR" others, acting selfless.
The other day, Friday, to be exact, I was sitting quietly and flashed back to the last days of my father's life. He was experiencing a mild delirium, in and out, making sense and not making sense, but one thing that he held to for days on end was a request from me to take him to a local toy and hobby store. He wanted a model and a puzzle. Friday, I was remembering how (unaware at the time) I longed to please him, how I longed to be able to scoop him up out of the bed, load him in my car and take him and together pour over the selection until the right one was found. I longed to please him. I longed to connect with him. I went alone, selected a model - torn because I wanted to get the Korean war tank but it was too complex for his stroke altered dexterity so I selected a WWII airplane that snapped together. There was no puzzle that was appropriate. The ones with pieces large enough for altered hand motion was juvenile in image so I left them all in the store.
But on Friday, it was not what I selected that stood out it was the longing, the never ending longing to please that returned to me.
Take that piece of puzzle and put it into the framework that was given me in the hospital days leading up to these when I learned from the Dr. that my father had used intimidation to control people, mesh it together with my experience of him in which he tolerated only those whom he could intimidate, those who would kowtow to his outrageous, demands whom he would in time reward financially.
It was only in our 30s that my brothers and I no longer gave into his increasingly crazy demands but we always did it with great sorrow but he threw us out of his life like soiled bathwater unless some particular thing came along the he thought he could control us with again.
Because I did not automatically fall in line to his intimidation, I have learned that he would say truly horrible things about me to people, that he would intentionally besmirch my character and reputation. My own father. All the while, I longed to be able to connect, to have that father "back" that I thought he had been as a child.
So here is how that relationship breaks down. The father, intentionally, intimidating his own child - as a 4 year old, a teenager and as an adult. The child, (in decreasing quantities) longing, needing to respond. As a child the need was a survival need, as a teen it slipped into a need to understand how to function in our world, to flourish, looking to my role model who had flourished, and as an adult a mere longing for connection and help in very difficult times. At all times, totally unaware that the way to "receive", "connect" was only to be a shilll, to sell my soul.
But looking back - one of the greatest pains still is that no one cares to understand how horrendous it is and it was to have a father who truly had no love for his children - ZERO. That pain is so great. It is indescribable. And those few people who seem to ask I find out really don't want to know. When I begin to explain or describe I am told, in essense, to move on.
It is not possible to MOVE ON. It takes someone, anyone listening, hearing and affirming the reality that most humans simply don't want to hear. My mother doesn't want to discuss it. My eldest brother no longer speaks to me ( I finally figured out it is due to his wife - all these almost 30 years it has been his wife) and my elder brother is in another world but
[interrupted - to be continued]
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OH MY...
I already want to respond to some things. But I think I'm going to hold off and wait to see where you're going, when you continue.
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Oh my goodness.
This si sso frustrating.
I think I know what I want to write. I compose it as I go along in my day but when I get to the computer - BAM - it completely eludes me.
I started writing here yesterday with so much to say and certain that I could answer some of the questions about the difference between the two effects of nism on my life and BOP the whole things vanishes and I am no longer sure. I thought and thought and thought about it last night but couldn't separate the two in my mind.
I am getting old, feeling in senile, memory loss and some kind of confusiong. I am not old but feeling old. Hoping for clarity to break in.
Mayby (just maybe) if I keep blabbering in this vein the clarity will emerge.
I do need to make a shift in my morning routine but I am loath to do it. When the cool (cold) morning finally are replaces wy something warmer maybe it will be easier. But I want to get up and do some medication and yoga. For now I am so longing to get to a computer and the internet and coffee. I think if I relent and get internet service at home this may resolve many problems.
What is the cheapest way to get internet at home? Any recommendations?
Today I ltravell a couple of hours to pick my child up at a regional airport. He has been visiting my wealthy sister-in-law and playing with her vacationing children - having a wonderful time - experiencingin what most children experience with family (though these children ore only family by marriage). He flew down on thursday on a direct flight. His return would require a change of airplanes and my (wealthy) sister-in-law arranged to have her (m)anny fly back with him. She is very generous. I wouldn't hear of it and am driving to meet my little boy this afternoon. It will be a good drive home as he will have lots and lots to tell me about his trip.
Maybe on the way I will be sorting out this Nism issue. I think it is one of those things that has to sort itself out within me. That is one of the reasons that I want to get back to my daily meditative practice. It would allow this stuff to sort itself out.
But this is one thing that I do want to say. Soemthing there is in our socity that doesn't love ro even want to hear of a father (or mother) who does not love a child. Even here I often hear (or read) that parents do their best. that is quite simply not always true. I, quite frankly, don't believe it is true for either of my parents but now I am certain that it was not true of my father.
Why is it that people insist that parents "do their best"? My parents didn't even try and my mother still won't try.
The person who interrupted me yesterday was a lovely woman who is one of my mother's contemporaries. She is quite a remarkable person whom I could spend hours writing about here. She began her adulthood in a conventional mmanner and then began taking on issues of justice and child developent and international and spiritual concerns. She has had remarkable experiences.
She began by saying how sorry she was to here about my father and then went into how she really remembered when he was younger and (without direct reference) continued saying that in their younger years my father was so delightful etc., etc. Later in the conversation she ventured that the PTSD the my father probably suffered in was might be an underpinning to his later behavior. I found that to be so insightful on her part and a respit for my soul. But (my point here) she bemoaned the fact that my mother eschewed her friendship and went on to count the ways in which their lives had paralleled each other and their many common interests and the number of times and ways she had tried to reconnect only to be rebuffed by my mother.
How coudl I explain to her that my mother holds these biases and meannesses that are grounded in nothing and because the are grounded in nothing they cannot be over turned.
She went on to say that my mother was so very smart. I frankly replied that I had heard that all my life but had never seen any sign of that in my own experience.
Later that day I went to a "meeting" that my mother was participating in about spiritual development. It is such a joke. The hwole point of this weekend long "conference" is in letting go of fear and allowing love in and yet here is this person whom mmy mother would do well to renew her friendship with whom she has turned a deaf (unkind) ear to just because.
My mother cannot articulate nor even does she know why she has a hard heart towards this woman but she won't look at it either.
I may push on this one a little because I think I can learn something about this human who happens to be my mother and I have NOTHING invested in it other than learning about how she does and does not think.
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I can well imagine how you're confused. Everything in a narcissistic disorder is back to front, and its very hard to believe what you're experience is telling you. Eg, your mom's on a spiritual path all about love, but what you actually see and experience is the opposite. Its 'cunning, baffling, powerful', and always reinvents itself in endless guises, but yet the basic content, the basic terms of engagement are the same, it can look different, sound different, but as it hits you inside, the feeling response is the same dynamic. Well, thats from my experience.
Like you, I'd get these flashes of clarity, as I was walking along, or something, but they's slip into a black hole, never t0 be regained again. So I've taken to stopping and writing it all down, no matter where I am. This has gone on now for years.
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Wonderful post, ((((GS)))).
So happy about M's trip! What a joy that he's had this escape and adventure.
I think the "they did the best they could" thing is true in a way, and at the same time does not in the slightest bit make cruel or neglectful parents unaccountable.
The way I think of it, as in the example you gave of your parents not even trying, is:
The reason not-trying was "the best they could do" was because they didn't have the moral strength to try.
NOT that this was okay. And not that you have to forgive them.
You don't.
You can, if you want to, later on, because you might get to a place where that is something you wish to do for yourself. It doesn't let them off the hook in the moral universe.
It just lets you off the hook of the damage to you of eternal anger.
That's how I see it anyway. (I still have interesting brief blasts of anger at Mom now and then. Suddenly yell at the dead lady when I'm in the bathroom! Weakening ones though.)
Oddly, I'm usually glancing in the mirror when that happens. I talk to myself: Thanks, Mom. (sarcastically).
And then I am too ... I dunno, almost bored with myself ... to get up any energy to debate with a ghost. Who (by the definition I mentioned earlier) really was doing the best she knew how to do, given the forces in her life.
love to you,
Hops
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huh.
It's just my experience - but some of my biggest (and most freeing) insights are the ones that seem to slip away just as my fingers are beginning to type them down. Frustrating, to be sure!! But understandable, because these things are usually the ones that I've spent the longest time and most energy avoiding even thinking to myself - much less saying out loud. And so I babble on & on... until inevitably I work my way right back around to the same blank spot, and sometimes - yes - am able to awkwardly get it out in "rough draft" form.
This woman who's known your parents so long sounds like someone you might be able to connect with. She seems willing to share the kind of information that would be invaluable to you, at this stage of work.
As to the certain knowledge that you are not - were not - loved by your parents. When you are the child in question, the pain of that goes beyond comprehension. It will always be around; it will always be ugly; and it will always hurt. That said, the intensity of all that wanes... fades out... and I guess, one could say it's a blessing that humans are designed to adapt... because one can actually "get used" to this. It becomes just one of many facts about the person - not more important or less, inherently - but in the scale of things, in the total accounting... it's just one thing about you.
I do think you're on to something big, though, with looking at the difference of someone being intentionally cruel and the other type of cruelty that takes the form of neglect, dismissiveness, discounting, overly-controlling, projecting, etc. One is a direct and identifiable "threat" - and a person develops all kinds of defense strategies for dealing with that. But it's incredibly hard to even NAME the other kind... to give it a description... and yet, every intuitive and emotional response is telling you - this is wrong. Keep going; keep writing... it'll come to you!
:D
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Difficult to write it cogently.
intentional sabotage took incredible, indescribable toll.
when I am facing something difficult, either a task difficult to complete or a conflict where two needs or events or responsibilities are competing
then I tend to shut down - in a profound way - feeling drawn into an emotional fetal position.
It is a no win thing - that is how it feels.
When I learned of my father's intentional intimidtion I "knew" that this has played a role but I cannot yet find or see how it is so.
Since my father's death, I have been re-member-ing that when I was out of sight I did not receive punishment, recriminations or condemnations - only when I happened by or at required times.
Dinner times, particularly the 5 years I was living at home after my brother went off to school, were a torture chamber but I was blind to that and was caught in a desparate desire to please and connect but unable to put misformed pieces together. I would try to connect with my father who wo;uld sit at the head of the table and ask questions about my actions in a rapid fire manner and yet offer no information about his own and would brook no inquiries EVER into his day, world, life.
I recall as a young adult being asked what I wanted for a particular gift and saying that I wanted a computer and being asked why and regardless of what I answered being told, "That isn't why you want that. WHY do you want it."
It was a well known and often commented on factor that my father would ask questions that had no answers and yet he would demand answers. DEMAND them, relentlessly, with reined in tensed jaw, without repose until some response was given but not just any response, the rigth response - what made it right would be utterly elusive. If the one under interrogation was not the witness, there was no way in which to aid the object of that interrogation. We all suffered regardless of who was the target but the target, unquestionably suffered greatest.
Now that I know all of that was intentional intimidation ---
I see that my father was a torturer. Perhaps he learned this in training during the Korean War. Perhaps he was trained how to break prisoners or what to expect as a prisoner should he be taken.
He would demand answers that did not exist and would berate and hold us all hostage until the elusive answer somehow were produced. I suspect that answer would be arrived at simply when he tired of the wretched mind-control game.
As I have written earlier - he wrote us off when his mind control no longer worked, when we no longer succombed to his torment. But we did not go away in victory but in sorrow, still longing to connect, to honor and respond to "father", unable to comprehend the forces at work and unable but unwilling to give up on fitting them into the normal concepts of father-child relationship.
Even to his last day, I was there.
What a surprise to see his wife of 3 years carrying on his very means of torment and intentional confusion and obfuscation.
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The longing to connect in indescribable.
The longing to belong - to something greater than myself without having to give up myself.
Always demanded was that I give up who I was and I complied for so long and then began railing against it.
Longing to have humans make an effort to understand. That is certainly my experience as a parent - the long hours I spend trying to understand my child and to respond to the being who he is, to nurture and shape yet prune without wounding.
None of that trying existed.
I don't know if I have written about this or not.
But in late February I let 4 women come into my home to help me clean up.
One person started the "movement" as a help. But two of the people were NO help.
They came in to my kitchen, made decisions about how my pantry should be organized, what should be kept and what not.
With 4 at work, I could not keep up with all that was being done.
Now - I cannot find much of my stufff - don't know if they moved it or threw it out.
Yesterday wanted to use some cayenne powder - gone.
WHY - even if it was old the bottle itself could be reused with fresh.
My grain pantry was completely cleaned out - some grains and flours that I had purchased from small mills - GONE.
This touches so deep into my wounding - things that I valued GONE without consulting me.
I keep things in boxes - like my waffle iron. Box gone.
I kept some snack items in boxes. the contents of one box are not individually labeled - box gone.
I am so angry and frustrated.
and all of this turns in on itself - a person offered help - I took it - and it was not what I wanted at all. I did not get to have it done my way - it was done as the "helpers" wanted.
I would never do that to someone else?
Honestly I cannot even begin to understand.
All of this "damage" was done by only two of the women. The other two would no more take over or control in this manner than would I.
Of the two controllers - I know only one. She is very, very controlling. I see so clearly how it is a cover up for her - keeping the out-of-control stuff at bay - not unlike my father.
Painful.
Painful not being able to get done what I need to get done.
Not able to resolve some conflicts or neglected things.
Longing to get to the memories to unlock this.
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GS, theres a lot that you've written that I'd like to respond to. I find your writing full of meaning.
One thing tho, the cleaners up incident, I can imagine how you feel, that feeling of things you value being taken away, and the invasiveness of it is part and parcel of the original dynamic.
One of the injuries that I have found that I sustained from my origins is a terrible weakness when it comes to defending myself and protecting my territory. and that feels awful, like I've allowed the whole thing to happen again, the very thing Im most against.
My form of healing is to make this part of 'my own inventory' I allow so many things past me and I could kick myself for it, its like having a wire loose. When I worked thro the steps (in recovery), time and again, I found the character defect of 'misplaced trust' was the cause of my debacles.
I say this not to attack myself, or to have anyone sorry for me, but to just bring it to the light, also in the hope that as I share my own experiences of the ~~ whateveryoucall the damage (I call it the exile disorder), that it will help the person who hears it to identify and perhaps feel less alone, and more empowered, ie you.
And Im still interested in your subject matter here, thinking of doing a spinoff post from yours, but have to delegate time here, there and everywhere, and then theres always the procrastination time slot to be taken care of!! : s
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It's not your fault, GS....
Not your fault:
that you couldn't find an answer that would satisfy dad and "connect" you to him in a rational, normal way
that you were able to give, give, give and keep trying to connect... and he was too self-absorbed (to put it mildly) to notice
that half the women who volunteered to "help" didn't know common courtesy and respect for boundaries
that you didn't foresee them taking charge and making decisions without consulting you
and lastly: it's not your fault that your wounds are your wounds and still seem close to the surface and easily reopened.
I absolve you of responsibility, but that may not be enough to change the long pattern of punishment you endured and possibly still expect unconsciously...
You need to absolve yourself - little GS and your present self - for being the target of abuse. This probably sounds strange... but rather than remembering and bringing up more and more instances of the same kind of wounding (and retraumatizing yourself)... the direct way through... is to let yourself off the hook. It's essential. IT WASN'T YOUR FAULT the way your parents acted toward you... there is nothing about you that would cause a normal person to treat you that way. It helps in small, big, subtle and spectacular ways - to keep as your mantra... that it wasn't your fault and you're not responsible for fixing THEM or the RELATIONSHIPS... you're only responsible for fixing you, and that starts with a deep feeling that you are not at fault and didn't somehow bring this all down on you.
Furthermore, in the present, when people act like callous jackasses - that's not your fault either... but now you've got skills to protect yourself from those people... you've proved it to me over the past year, so I know you do. Sure, you're going to remain sensitive to certain types of people and treatment - I am too. And some days one just doesn't have the energy to deal with it - I know that. I still have old emotions that get triggered in certain situations, too. And that's not my fault - BECAUSE...
of the fact, that when I was a child... I was helpless and powerless against the tyranny of invisible abuse. I grew into myself via a perverse, warped, circuitous route from that child... so I still have "vulnerabilities"... tendencies... leftover, hangover stuff that as a gramma - I'm still working on. But I'm no longer helpless or powerless or voiceless. Especially when I find someone is stepping on my still hurting toes in specific ways.
It doesn't matter whether the jackasses you're dealing with know your personal history - you do. It's up to you now to protect you from the unthinking and careless and yes, intimidating folk of the world. Things were done (and horribly not done) to and for you... and believe me, it wasn't your fault. So, give yourself a pass on the punishment wheel of fortune... and realize that yes, when one is a child there's nothing one can do to protect oneself adequately... it hurt; it added obstacles to your life where other people had none; it was unfair, unjust, it hurt(s) like hell, and lord knows you TRIED...
but that was THEN and this is NOW.
It wasn't your fault THEN... and it's not your fault NOW. In some magical way, forgiving yourself for being "only a child" - like the story of the writer and Jesus - makes it possible to BE beyond where that stuff can hurt you - again. Where you can see the 'rents as just imperfect, even terribly flawed people - but YOU'RE OK. Because you're no longer trying to change the past, no longer blaming yourself (in unconscious ways - and yeah, I do this), and you can stand in the confidence that you're doing the best you can, given the cards you were dealt... and that's really not all that bad (compared to the callous jackasses of the world).
And you've most definitely connected with me. I have a really hard time, when I know you're suffering because I don't have clue one what it is you need the most; what will help. I can only speak from me, what I think I hear you say (tho that might be "translated" into what I understand), and what I went (and go) through... and hope it has an echo on your side.
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I continue to be baffled by the fact that I can spent quite a bit of time during the day thinking about things I want to write about here but when the oportunity arrives my mind goes completely blank. Then when I shut my computer and go on y way - my mind is cranking out the missives.
part of a line of thought is about the complete authority my father demanded and received from my brothers and me until we were in our early 30s and he cracked open wide enough for us to see the wizard was just a small man.
By then the die was cast and the succumbing to authority (even while experiencing an unconscious, suppressed, concommitant rage and railing against authority). Were that response to lauthority limited to that person who was my father things would be A-OK, it would have died with him but that is not the case. in fact it is a different story that I live. Anyone who sets themselves up as authority or who makes pronouncements with the air of authority, I give it to them, unquestioningly, without thought or review or scrutiny. Such award may be brief until justified scrutiny kicks in but most likely and most often scrutiny only comes in far too late. Only after some price has been exacted. Everytime it happens (which is actually sseveral times a day) regardless of the degree of cost, I kick myself and go through a routine of reviewing the origins and griving the extraordinary pain of having suffered the sabotage from a person who gave me life but never love nor support nor care. The whole scenario is relived in a microcosmic millisecond, relived and reinforced. But the biggest pain is that reminding and reinforcement of the lesson he taught over and over and over again - I deserved what I got. And unfortunately, I live that in my being regardless of how my rational mind tells me a different story. My rational mind is not strong enough, powerful enough, omnipresent enough to countervail the sublimated, omnipowerful lesson a doting, dutiful child learned out of love and longing and attachment.
What greater betrayal could there be?
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I have stuff that I must do - but they don't involve other people.
I function so much better underdeadline which involves working with other people.
I can get things done for my son, or when I must meet with others.
But when it comes to deadlines that i suffer consequences for not meeting, even if they are simply within my own being, I am paralyzed.
I do know that this has to do with past experience. I cannot get to the memory or to the release.
It is agonizing and crippling in terms of being a functioning person.
It is beyond painful.
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Ann, I think I came up with the same approach to that kind of paralysis! At least it works sometimes...
GS - I don't know if this will be useful or not, but one thing I've seen about my own reactions - retraumatizing old wounds and reinforcing old stuff... regardless of the origin... is that I seem to have an instinctive (that is, before rational thought kicks in) distortion in my "threat perception". Anxiety is involved in this... but even more so, "security" - that sense of "no matter what happens I'm going to be OK". For shorthand, I just call it emotional PTSD. (yeah - it's redundant; all PTSD is emotional isn't it?) What's important in that thought, is that I perceive EMOTIONAL threats to be bigger, more serious, more deadly - more threatening, than they really are.
The reason I use this name for it, is to separate it from the kind of PTSD that occurs because of trauma - physical threats to life & limb - that seem to get "stuck" in one's fight/flight area of the brain. Emotional PTSD - in Amber's world - comes from that chinese water torture kind of experience of living with emotionally abusive parents. The difference for me is, that when we are children we are "building" and forming our Selves. Peoples' reactions to us become how we see ourselves; we live up to those implied "expectations" and outright descriptions of "how we are" to ourselves... and we are totally vulnerable to words, actions and even lack of "attunement" from parents, because, as children, we do experience a true dependence for survival - food, clothing, school and shelter - on those very same abusive parents. And rather than the fight/flight brain, it seem to be "stuck" in another part of my being - the part that recognizes & agonizingly feels abandonment and isolation and rejection and worthlessness......
So: in the PTSD model - that's what gets "stuck" in our threat perception brain... it's our set of triggered-reflex-reactions buttons... and we can be extremely sensitive to those things - because our (inner-child) sense of Self or Safety is dependent on being able to see and react to those threats. Those threats can be as simple as a specific sensitivity to a word that was used to degrade us and make us feel that we weren't worthy of recognition, love and protection. Or the tone of voice someone uses when speaking to us. Or the complete lack of empathy coming from a person who does have some authority within the scope of our life (like bureaucrats).
It need not be a real threat - it only has to resemble one to set up me off, because that "reaction" has been reinforced so much, so intensely, so often by those people one most depends on to recognize your needs, meet them, and protect you. That fear of abandonment (or rejection)... is something that belongs to the "child self". And so far, I haven't found a whole lot that makes this go away. One can, however, learn to live with it... get used to it... and manage it.
Like any PTSD triggering, when I feel myself in front of one of those emotional tunnels... I make myself stop thinking (no racing and possibly off the wall thoughts) and just breathe - feel myself centered in my body. If I can feel my toes & elbows & back... then "I'm OK" physically, you know? It really helps to minimize the impact of these, if I can be alone and still until it passes and my brain doesn't hurt anymore and I can be rational again. Even hubs' talking to me can stress that boundary of inner control.... or it can bring me back. It just depends... my latest one of these lasted all day yesterday. But by evening, I was able to tell myself - there's nothing more I can think of that'll help today; I'll look at and think about it again tomorrow. I'm OK - right now; I'll be OK in the morning; and I can give myself a comfort "time out" just because I need one. I'm overtaxing myself; making it harder - and maybe even making a mistake... because of the perception distortion I've noticed (post facto) in all these reactions. Hubs brought me back yesterday with a simple declarative "don't leave me"... and he meant don't withdraw into myself and obsess. This kind of reaction is kinda like an emotional disability... one can live just fine with it - but adaptively.
Over time, I've come to see this trait of mine as "how I'm built" - it's the hand that life dealt me. Just like we can't change our DNA tendencies to certain health problems, our experiences with parents are just as resistant to change - but you know, like with health problems, it's also possible to take steps to control "how I'm built", too. Unlike when I was a child and hopelessly powerless in the situation I can - at least minimally for now - control how much I participate in these reactions. It starts with a deep understanding that I didn't deserve what I experienced, nor was it my fault. It sounds like a sneaky form of self-blame, to accept that I participate in my own triggered reactions... but I don't think it is. It doesn't feel that way at all. On the contrary, it feels like there is some strange, unfamiliar tool being presented to me that can - with practice, over time - change this built-in reaction significantly. By accepting that "the way I am" makes me a total sucker for these kinds of emotional seizures - where I relive the old wounds and pain in a totally different situation - I can separate the phenomena; the experience of the emotion from the other parts of my Self. That tiny bit of separation is a hugely powerful tool for me. It takes something I'm too close to, to see clearly - and puts it "over there" where I can watch it, observe it - and choose and make decisions.
Because of this part of my healing, and how it works for me, it's hard for me to see the usefulness in intentionally reliving old pain now. I spent a good many years doing just that, though. I think I needed to say it enough times, till I really "heard" myself... believed myself... trusted myself and the conclusions I was drawing from the facts (including emotional ones) I could gather. Until, as Hops was saying, it just gets boring... there was nothing else left to "mine" from those memories except the same old pain... and the same old pain just kept me going in the same old circles or loops...and all the details of that story are just one fact about me - like my freckles - that I can't really change. But how I think about it - what I focus on now - oh yes, much has changed there!
I really think studying how I participate in my own "emotional seizures" was the key to learning WHAT to change and HOW. Accepting that my emotional perception might really have an extremely low threshhold for those pain threats... helps. Because I usually think of myself as a "tough guy" - can take a licking & keep on ticking - or that I've endured so much for so long, I've completely ignored the fact that my emotional perception has been rubbed raw, been overused, sprained... so even the lightest breeze can be painful, at times. Because my bioNic mom didn't take care of this aspect of me... I never internalized how to do this for myself. It's a little late now... but I am making progress. Sure, I wish it was faster... easier... over with and move on. But I got 50+ years of doing it differently... it's gonna take a little time for me to "undo" and "unlearn", you know?
Right now - all this is just words on a screen. You'll have your own words and feelings to go with your experience of your working through and ultimate solution. And then, you'll own that part of yourself... you'll take that part of you away from where the pain is, comfort her, protect her and let her scream "NO MORE"... and fewer and fewer things that happen now, will trigger the old pain loops... and reactions... and defenses... and yadda-yadda-yadda...
(If I can write all these words to say something pretty simple... just IMAGINE what my brain is like, when I'm triggered into racing thoughts - leaps to catastrophic conclusions - and seeing monsters under every piece of furniture... it's a CURSE!! LOL....)
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My late father's wife of 3 years is much like him in many ways.
I did not come to know this until after his death.
Her existence evokes in me much of the same stuff he did.
It is difficutl to convey or explain.
My father (and his wife) are seldom direct in their condemnation but it lurks underneath a false cheeriness.
The condemnation is evoked behind the person's back.
I am understanding how he lurks within me to sabotage so much.
As I approach some task before me I anticipate that it will not be done well. I usually don't have the help or resources needed to make the task easy. And that lack of help or resources will come back to bite me in criticism or condmenation either in a short comment made to look humorous, like a teasing jab (though no kindness exists) designed specifically so that the recipient (me) looks bad if he/she (I) react to it because it was, of course, done all in fun (except to the recipient.) The perpetrator (especially my father) never looks bad.
The damage done by this over years is powerful.
That woman does it well, as well.
A short clipped, off-handed remark - well placed, seemingly casual that does great damage to the reputation.
A set up, assignment of task, contribution of zero necessary resources, in a setting where normally there is shared responsibility, then off-handed curt condemnation when task not completed on time or in acceptable fashion. The whole thing is a setup. A setup to destroy or beat down. All the while looking utterly innocent. Much like the damage done in a beating with a phone book. Only the victim complaining causes a raised eyebrow - accusations would fall completely short. This is what clever, and proficient abusers do. It is terribly sad how easy it is to fall into this pit of victimhood. Very difficult to get out not the least of which is due to the difficutly to understand what is happening , not to mention how powerful the psychological victimhood takes on this experience as the norm. (Wishing I had PRs proficiency with language to express my thoughts and understanding.)
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river - excellent post #16.
helpful on many levels.
yesterday i bought some index cards to keep in my purse so I can write when the spirit moves.
I should go back to recording such thoghts - that might overcome that writing barrier.
That blackhole thing and that appearance v. reality thing
funny how I was drawn to the shekspearean theme of reality v appearance as a teen while totally unconscious of what a stronglehold it had on me.
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hops - I love ya but I flat out disagree with you on the "best they could" thing. That's part of my point in this thread. my father intentionally inflicted harm - that is NOT in anyway - "the best he could do." He made an intentional choice. This has nothing to do with forgiveness or not. It has to do with understanding the action at work. Everything we do is NOT our best. That is a very deterministic philosophy which simply absolves us of all personal responsibility for any and everything. I don't buy it for my parents nor do I buy it for myself nor for humanity at large.
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I’m really intrigued by the subject of this post. And I can so identify with it. Sometimes it is much easier to acknowledge and see the damage done by the primary narcissist in the family---the one that “outwardly” exhibits outrageous, painful behavior. Yet, I agree, the person I identify as a “co-N”, someone who is not technically N him/herself but who enables and supports the N or who fails to stand up or take responsibility is equally, or even, more at fault. Why more? It’s because they are not Ns---they know better, are capable of better…they just deliberately CHOOSE not to do better----not to stand up and take responsibility. But many times, it’s often difficult to be hard on these “co-Ns” because the very nature of their co-dependency is that their personalities are more benign, kinder and far less deliberately cruel than that of the N. If you take their behavior regarding the primary N away, they no doubt would be a good, loving person. But, of course, you can’t do that because the primary N IS their life.
I personally have never known a “closeted” N. All the Ns I’ve been around have been blatant---or perhaps they’ve just been blatant to me and not others. It was obvious that something is seriously wrong with them.
I agree that the “unintentional” damage is much worse….because it could have been prevented. The “unintentional N” looks the other way at the pain that is being caused…but is aware of it. They just bury it, turn the other way or pretend people (usually the very children and family they purport to care so much about) are not being hurt.
For me, the situation is reverse of Gaining Strength. My dad is the “co-N” and my mother and sister the evil Ns. My dad who is by all accounts sweet and pure of spirit, nevertheless, looked the other way my whole life and allowed the Ns to control and destroy our family and damage my brother and myself. Is he aware of it? Yes. Will he acknowledge, speak or do something about it. No. So, yes, he is as guilty, if not more so, as the Ns who caused the damage.
My dad has been critically ill, and I had hoped in this delicate stage of his life, in quite moments of the evening with just he and I, he might have offered a glimmer of acknowledgement, regret or empathy for me. But there was none. He is slowly recovering and the Narcissism during this period has ramped up even more than I ever imagined. It has proved to me more than ever that Narcissism is indeed a true and cruel sickness. These people are very, very sick individuals. It is a source of deep sadness and loneliness……I am trying to look at these people in a way that takes me out of the picture, like an out of body experience….but it is not easy. For non-Ns like us, it is difficult not to broach these situations based in common sense, common humanity….but that is where we go wrong. Their very disorders dictate they are incapable of behaving in a human way.
So I identify with the “unintentional N” role in the pain that is caused. But like the N, they have a sickness of their own. It is easier to expect more from them because we know they are capable of more….but they are just as unable to respond in an appropriate way as the N is.
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I understand, GS...and I don't feel anybody has to use the same mental formula I do to cope. Glad you spoke about it. We all have different dialogues with our pasts. And yours makes sense to me too.
The biggest N in my life was my mother, not my father. She was, ultimately, easier to forgive. Probably because I had the habit of caring for her, and I saw her vulnerability. And, as a woman, I was very affected by what I learned late in my adulthood about her childhood. Saw how that undermined her ability to make choices that would have seemed morally better.
Neither of my parents ever emotionally abused me in the way your father did. I would have been profoundly harmed if they had. I don't know who or what damaged your father so terribly but something did. And the culture didn't help.
Though neither of my parents were abusive in the overt way your father was (the dinner table scene you painted gave me a sick feeling--that was horrendous abuse and in ways, is likely harder to recover from than physical blows)...
My brother was and IS that kind of abuser. There was violence in him. Extreme emotional violence and always the incipient threat of more. And the willingness to do great, forceful harm to me. (I was a tense and terrified person around him.) He literally would have happily destroyed me and would on some level rejoice at my death.
I think that's the closest parallel I have had in my experience. His bullying. But with your father to trapped-at-the-table dependent children, that was a worse kind.
As to "the best he could do"? It's not important. For me, it's just...a way of saying to myself (that works for me): This is what was real. How this person behaved was real, did happen, was what it was, is what it is, and no fantasy, no yearning, no hopefulness, no bouts of imaginative rewriting the past based on expectations that relationships with family SHOULD be different...will change it in any way. Ever.
I want to accept it. I just want to completely, profoundly and permanently accept it. Probably doesn't sound like it, but for me, "the best they could do" is more a decision of my own in my process of wanting to accept it, than anything to do in actuality with my mother (or even my brother, though I haven't forgiven him yet). It's just that for me, describing them that way to myself, gives me a shape for the exit door I want to walk through into my future. So I don't spend the rest of my life as a recovering victim.
I don't exactly want to "let them off the hook" -- it's more my way of seeing that I have no hook. There is no hook. I never had a hook and there never will be a hook. I am not looking for justice any more. (I did find some, through the court's support in stopping my brother...but that is just a relief. In its practical sense, that specific justice was only like -- winter did end. Spring did come. Wasn't truly personal validation --the judge didn't know me or personally value me, but was just responding to what he saw in front of him--and luckily, the legal stuff ended right.)
The rest of the retribution/balancing of the emotional or spiritual scales/right being wrest from wrong--has to be me learning to be whole, functional and as happy as I can in my real life. Not my "corrected" or "repaired" life, or a life in which others validate me. Ain't there yet by a long shot but it feels like the direction I want to go.
Whether it could be philosophically or morally argued successfully or not, for me, telling myself that my mother did "the best she could do" helps me out of my feeling of betrayal. That paralyses me so that's why I want to get past it.
Betrayal, for me personally, is attached to my expectations. I can't feel betrayed any more if I don't expect my history --or hers-- to be other than what it was. I -- the me that could be betrayed -- have to separate my well-being from all those roles and fantasies and myths and expectations about what my mother should have done (should have done better) to nurture and protect me.
Convoluted and doesn't really address anything very satisfactorily. But I do not think that this thought of mine, "best they could do", that happens to help me heal, is necessarily true or helpful for anyone else.
I do believe that forgiveness is not something anyone can prescribe for anyone else. Sometimes we most need support for our feeling UNforgiving, because sometimes that gives us the strength of anger in a positive and empowering way. It's hard to tell, exactly, when it crosses over from empowerment to repetition compulsion or toxicity.
On the other thing, I was wondering if there could be any way that you could sit with the feelings you had about the women who came to help you with your house, and reach a point where you decide that every clueless intrusive mistake they made in the process of cleaning your home, turned on its side, could be looked at as yet another manifestation of gift, of help, of support, or grace.
Help is what you needed. They came to help. And did it clumsily.
But does the kitchen feel better, now? You deserve an uncluttered, clean home.
love to you,
Hops
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Thank you Hops.
I do get that we must find what works for each of us.
I do understand that "did the best she could" can be a very positive way of coping.
for me it does the opposite. Isn't that odd? A phrase that is therapeutic for one is heart piercing for another - same phrase - utterly different results. Part of me gets it. I teach my child that bullying is not based on words but onthe way those words are received. IOW, if a person does not think a joke at their expence is funny then it is bullying even when that very same joke on someone else is received with humor. It is how those words are received.
As a child, the joke was often at my expense and if I reacted with hurt or anger I was punished.
that's how my father was.
I was powerless to do anythign about it.
My brothers never really quit using that power they had over me - that power my father bestowed on them - that power which my mother turned a deaf ear to - then and now.
That woman my father married is much like my father.
I have been waiting for the "other shoe to drop" for some weeks now.
Well - it dropped today.
I can't even write about it even though I came here to do so.
The pain is so raw and as always there is no one to turn to.
I called my sister-in-law immediately.
She didn't answer my call.
I texted her and asked if she could talk and wrote that I needed to talk.
I never heard back from her.
As usual I am left utterly alone in my pain.
It was a beautiful day today.
My child and I met a friend and her children at an outdoor festival.
It was very pleasant but I was in such pain - truly aching because noone cares and there is no way to explain.
I was standing there thinking about what a 30 second sound bite world we are now and how what I am experiencing cannot be explained in that manner. I felt smaller, and smaller and smaller.
I sat there thinking about how my oldest brother shut me out of his life just before our father died. I have realized that his wife is probably responsible for that. I have known for about 21 years that she doesn't really like me but she is falsely "kind" and pretends to be "family". For instance she continues (at least up until my father's illness and death) to say, "I love you." even thoush she would only say that on the rare occassions that I would bump into her like a X-mas every now and then - becasue even though we live in the same town she doesn't call and doesn't "visit". She has always been "polite" when I called or visited but I know there was no truth to it. It is so frustrating to live related to people for whom livin a lie is more important that having real relationships.
What I know about my father and this person to whom he was married is that when you don't do what they want they punish you for a violation.
here is the short of it. This woman asked me to give something to her and I told her that I would do so in exchange for the key to my safety deposit box (that my father had held). She raged at me and began screaming and said she wouldn't do that, couldn't do that because that key was part of the estate and that she didn't have it. (A minute later she said she didn't have it but that it was at her house which is in sight of my house.) Nothing is in that safe deposit box that belonged to my father. All the contents are mine and she knows that because she went with me to open it after my father died and she saw all the contents. and yet she refuses to give me the key.
I knew that when she asked for somethign for me that it was the right moment to ask for this key. I also had known some time ago that somethign was odd that she even kept that key. I had taken everything out of the box having a very uneasy feeling about it already.
something is very, very dark about all of this and my sixth sense had honed in on it.
She raged at me today.
It was extremely unnerving and unsettling.
It was a trigger but it was more than a trigger.
It reminded me about living under my father how he would pretend to care and then would unleash at things that were utterly irrational and had only to do with control. The funny thing about this woman is that she does not know that I have copies of documents in which my father and she exchanged writings about his yelling at her. She had her pastor meet with them and demanded that he confess that raising his voice to her was a sin. he refused to do it. They exchanged a number of letters about it.
Wonder why in her fundamentalist mind it is a sin for him to rage at her but not for her to rage at people she is trying to controll.
I called her daughter to discuss it with her.
Her daughter said, "Welcome to our world."
Her daughter who is 10 yeaers older than I and a very competent person has a naivete about her however.
she does not see her mother's nefarious side.
She, for reasons I can understand, thinks her mother is just raging.
I think her mother is far more "intentional" than that.
I think her mother is being intentionally abusive in order to gain as much for herself without having to give anything to my brothers or me or our children.
It would be bad enough if I had not lived my life being treated like this but it is so much worse to get this from yet another human.
How many more are there in this world?
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I am in a kind of pain that defies description.
I know I am here because it is an opportunity to work out some portion of understanding and healing.
I want to get in the bed with a lot of sugary stuff and stay for a few days.
It is a profound depression that hearkens back.
I recall not that is not the right word, but it is something like recall, that my father would call me. I would know that if I talked to him he would be demanding something from me that was impossible to do and that he would be raging at me for not doing what he was demanding. But if I did NOT answer that it was just a matter of putting off the raging that would be coming my way anyway. It was a damned if I do and damned if I don't and there was not a single solitary soul on this earth would would be there for me - then or now. I would shut down and slip into a worthlessness in which I would know that all humans with authority would use it against me and that he would summon as mony as possible against. me.
This is why I so related to kafkaesque situations. They are what I know.
This is why I so relate to and have compassion for people who are found guilty and imprisoned even though innocent.
Though I have not spent a day in a physical jail mine has been a psychological and in truth I am not certain that I have spent a day not in a psychological prison. It is up to me but it is not that easy. I would open the door and walk out if I could see the key. I do know that it is available to me but I do not have the ability to get my hands on it yet. Still not certain what stands in my way.
I accept the beatings. I accept the torment. As though there is some reward for it. As though it is done for some altruistic greater good. That is because that is what he held up to me. It is still such crazy making that I am still locked in the craziness of it even though I am an adult with good reasoning power and he is dead.
I do know from the many bits and pieces of this legacy that this process and the struggle and pain of it all is part of the healing process for yet another tiny piece. And yet - it does not feel that way. It feels excruciating and the agony is horrific and I am powerless and impotent and despised in its midst. And the worst of it is that noone cares. Suffering all alone is the greatest pain of it all. It is at this moment that I long for "mother". Oh don't mistake me - I don't mean that huma who gave birth to me and mean a real mother - one who loves and adores and nurtures and cares until her dieing day about the beings she brought into this life. The kind of mother who would sacrifice without thinking because her children are greater than she. the one who would never let her children suffer alone. And I long for brother. I do so long for that person who is my brother who shut me out for God only knows what reason two months ago. It has ripped my heart open.
I am so broken.
But I am broken open and I am looking and I believe that I will find even a small bit of mroe healing.
Will this amount be enough?
will this bit bring some functionality into my life?
Will this time lift me out of profound isolation and aloneness - abject poverty of love and friendship?
I don't know and in one sense it does not matter but I do not have a choice.
I must continue to work towards healing no matter how long it takes or even if it EVER takes.
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I am so sorry (((((((((((((GS))))))))))))))), for the pain you are in.
For me, isolation doubles pain. You have not only grief and all the complex hurts, but the sense of not being comforted in it. Doubly hard.
I am truly sorry you feel so alone and unvalued.
I had a thought flash through my mind when I read this:
the joke was often at my expense and if I reacted with hurt or anger I was punished. that's how my father was. I was powerless to do anythign
Well, two thoughts. I'm no analyst so they may be not insightful -- but in case:
First thought was -- perhaps in continuing to feel so much hurt (this terrible pain) and anger (not this moment, but often) you are feeling what you damn well feel and you are not powerless. Perhaps the continuing anguish IS your power (or feels like it). IOW, in a way, continuing to be swamped in those two feelings most of the time as an adult ... you are defying him. (You will not allow me to feel my natural hurt and pain? I'll feel those things endlessly and YOU, father, will be powerless to prevent me.)
Second thought was (nearly the opposite, or parallel) -- perhaps in suffering so much, you are trying to continue your father's "work" of punishing you. Like being eternally in a state of suffering (abandonment, agony when family members are detached or indifferent, hurts with other people in the community, your father's widow--anger there too with inheritance issues, and anger and hurt with the women who came to help...in every direction, you suffer) is "helping" your father by being certain that the "job" of putting yourself down is faithfully continued...
Either way, it is all in reaction to him. Defiance or internalization ... it affects you the same way.
I don't know if that's apt at all but it surfaced because I feel I did this in relation to my mother, in many ways. Doesn't mean that's what is happening with you, but it resonated with that part of my history.
I do think you're healing, GS...this period is a crucible but there is no way you will be feeling the same way in a few years. Maybe even sooner, you will no longer be iron filings to the magnet of your father.
He has no more power.
I know you're going to reclaim your own when you tire of him.
love,
Hops
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yes, I say to you Hops, yes to what you have written.
It is such a process.
It is not about being stuck but it is a description of a point along a journey.
Pain and grief are not solid never moving but steps, amorphous and ephemeral.
putting words to such somehow solidifies it momentarily - just long enough to get a brief glimpse into its "matter" or essence or something - Je ne sais quoi.
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The intentionality of my father's destruction of my soul is heavy and often on my thoughts.
I see how he "trained" me to know that I could not complete things nor get them right.
Seemingly off topic but actually right on - I was noticing today while in a Starbucks that there was a person standing in the middle of a narrow passage. I had a flash into memory and knew that had that person been my father that no matter which direction I moved, in front or behind, it would be wrong and I would get a stinging rebuke but then in a flash I also knew that I would have received that for moving or not moving as well. Simply being was a no win situation every day and every moment.
It helps me understand so much about the situation I am in but it does not yet help me find the path out.
The other day my brother asked me to fax a paper to him because he is talking to some attorneys in my town about a situation in my father's estate. I thought the paper was in a specific box in the office to which I have keys. I went there to get it. It was not where I thought it was. I have basically shut down. It was not difficult for me to know why. In many ways my brother is an extention of my father. I do not know if the paper is not there because someone came into the office and took it (highly unlikely) or that it IS in the box but I overlooked it or that I brought it home in some of the dozens of file boxes of my father's papers. But more than the issue of locating the paper, my brother will definitely treat me the way my father did concerning the location of it.
He has already done that in this process. He does not discuss nor inform me of which attorneys he is talking to, nor about the subject matter. he does not listen to me about what I have to offer nor what facts or insights I have. I was thinking about this yesterday - when what I have to say is utterly dismissed it is yet another experience of voicelessness. What's new? But being so utterly alone in all of this is a kind of crazy making. It is taking yet another toll.
It goes to the experience in childhood of having noone care when I hurt - physically or emotionally.
That pain, of not being cared about or for, still exists for me and it is huge - just hanging there like a hideous, gaping soar.
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I think this is one of the issues, things dont change, until they change. I get so annoyed that in the psychology field, you hear over and over, about people who go for help are repeating patterns from the past, but the 'patterns' are still alive and well today.
Still, I do think recovery is possible, but you do need to be not alone. How can you., where can you, CAN you find the connection you need to recover?
Personally this was a huge difficulty for me to find that person/ people I needed to both understand, and themselves to be dedicated to recovery and health. But I seem to have put together some sort of, just about enough of a support of some sort to scrape together some semblance of recovery. How does this stand with you GS?
I know its not easy, I think that its only really people who have had a close encounter that can know how being close to an N can effect you, like how you described your thoughts about the man in the corridore.
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It goes to the experience in childhood of having noone care when I hurt - physically or emotionally.
That pain, of not being cared about or for, still exists for me and it is huge - just hanging there like a hideous, gaping soar.
Hi sweetie...
Yep; you're right. That pain exists BECAUSE of how your family - the individual people in it - are... how they see and treat you... even, dismiss you, or scapegoat you. For me, that pain still exists too.
Here's what I've come to: these aren't the only people that exist in the world... and other people are different than they are (many are different, that is - you will find some clones, too). Other people - like me - do care about you, even if I can't be there to see and hear what you do, to share a cup of tea (or something stronger)... and I'll tell you a secret: one of the main reasons I'm still hanging out here and checking to see if you've posted "today", is simply because I do like you and I'm still hoping to see you finally get past this point and break out of the "box" without doors that you're in. I would be so happy for you! And I would celebrate another victory over the damage that Ns think they can get away with...
That box canyon with 40 ft walls only LOOKS like it has no doors. The secret, hidden door that I found is here:
I finally accepted that my FOO is just so messed up and flat out nuts, that it was silly for me to think that a.) I was going to be able to "fix" or "change" them - make them see sense and act like normal people.... and b.) since they don't live in my world - where people do care about each other, help each other, and can be trusted... it is also silly for me to think that these things exist in their world. Different universe, different rules. And yeah - OK - I admit, the pain still exists that something went so wrong, so far off the tracks with these people... that it can't ever be put right again. I still struggle with what is my own emotion of pain about this set of life circumstances. But "me" I can do something about...
The pain isn't a daily main feature in my life nor is it as overwhelming anymore. I forget about it more often, these days... unless reminded. And since I've decided A & B above... I've also decided that it's not helpful to me to let the pain engulf me. It's always the same box canyon with no apparent way out - except to focus my whole attention and being on something else. To practice and train myself to walk away emotionally - and allow myself the opportunity to feel something else; be something other than a total ball of pain; and to see what else life has to offer me. I haven't mastered this yet, by any means - and it's just my personal solution; I have no idea if this would work for you... but I'm finding that this is where I'm gaining insights now, into the "old story"; this is where the "rest of the" answers are for me.
One answer I found, is that almost everyone has some pain or other that follows them around or that they carry with them, in life. For my hubs & MIL... it was losing their Dad & husband when he was in the prime of life. For one of my Ds - it was the disaster of her first marriage which she is still struggling to walk away from emotionally, 6 years later. Look at all the stories here - and elsewhere - people are able to live with the pain only because they accept that it's there - and then they focus on something else, feeling something else. Putting the pain down long enough - to get back to active living.
And maybe that's another answer... I limit the amount of time I spend with the old pain, now - but I still "honor" that daily; give it it's due and it's validation... and then go about my day doing something ELSE. And even with all this practice, I still get triggered back into the full cosmic force of that pain... but once I gather my scattered wits and dust myself off... I simply go back and try, practice, and train again. That's all a person CAN do, maybe...
but that kind of "answer" won't sell books, or create a following, or make anyone a celebrity. It's not sexy enough to sell - but it does work. Somehow, I think there are a lot of people doing just this kind of thing - unsung heroes. I didn't see the necessity, nor the utility, of continuing to play my part in the N-drama by the being the one in pain, anymore. The N-drama is an illusion for the benefit only of the N... so I just decided that it was possible to simply walk away - and right through the walls of that box of pain.
Victory over the damage that Ns cause... can take many forms, but will come down to a decision and committment to one's self... to simply walk away from that impossible to change "cause" - and go out & see what else there is in life. Because there's absolutely nothing wrong with YOU, sweetie.... and no one can fix "them".... or make it different than what it is.
I'm sorry that's the way it is. I wish there was some sheriff who could ride into town and enforce that supposed "natural law" of parents loving children. I've wished it many, many times. I've spent my whole life trying to figure out some fancy, sneaky, brilliantly convoluted solution to finally get my FOO to see me for who I really am... and I've failed. I think now, that they're aliens from planet N... pods... inhabited by creatures from another universe... and all I can do is simply go live my life in my own world, and when I do have to interact with them - I must remember that they're really aliens. Take the necessary precautions to protect myself.
I wish I had a magic wand to wave over you, to make the pain go away... bring a smile to your face and fulfill all those longings you have to simply be held and cared for - cared about.
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Ok - so here is an entry under the rubric of "unintentional N".
I have soften a little on mymother. Not much, but a little. Simply because, for the first time in my life, this differential is, without effort on my part, simply changing me. I do find myself driven to peaks of madness when dealing with her or in her presence but at the same time I am also able to see that most of what she does that is so offensive is oblivious to her.
So here is a story from life with mother yesterday:
One of my father's first cousins died Sunday evening. Though he left here as a young man over 60 years ago he chose to be buried by his parents here in his ancestral home. I made arrangements, on very short notice, for everyone to come by my mother's house after the service at the cemetery. Her home is easily accessible for those who are elderly and very easy to get to from the cemetery AND she is always amenable to having family over.
My cousin's wife calls me sunday evening and asks me to let everyone in our town know. At that time she expected the service to be Thursday. By Tuesday morning it had changed to Tues afternoon. I was a busy bee planning a small menu of pickup foods and drink and ordering and picking it all up. I had a few hours to get it all done. My father's cousins are all in their 80s. His sister is in her 70s. There is dissention in and among the different branches but this particular person and his wife simply ignored it all and were kind to everyone.
so I notified one cousin GiGi who is not doing well at all. She was very glad to come and send flowers for the widow to my mother's house. When I arrived at my mother's house to set up the food and bar and make one flower arrangement about an hour before the funeral my mother said, "look at the beautiful flowers Gigi sent me!"
"Mother - she sent them to Vonny!"
"Well they had my name on them."
"They had your name on the envelope because it is your house. Why would she send YOU flowers when HER cousin died?"
She shut her eyes and turned her mouth down and lifted her left hand from the arm chair in a dismissive way with nothin short of an audible snarl.
It was yet another window into her soul for me.
Not surprisingly, the card was written to Vonny but my mother never bothers with such trivia as reading cards (or notes or opening gifts - the plates I gave her for Christmas still sit in their box at the foot of her chair where she opened them on Christmas Day.)
I suppose she dismissed me because I dared ... what?
She really thought GiGi would send HER flowers!
I cannot even get there - I CAN_N_O_T.
when GiGi stood to leave and I made a show of acknowledging in front of GiGi that the beautiful flowers were for Vonny from Gigi so that Vonny would have a chance to thank her and receive them. I could feel a deep resentment fume from my mother's presence AND I had a sense of guilt and shame flash over me even as Iknew what I was doing was the very thing to do and would have done it just so had my mother been absent and the whole thing been at my own home. But I was cognizant of my mothers control over me and how it had controlled me in profound ways earlier.
It is different though I still don't understand how, in that she is not scheming, plotting and planning but simply, chlidishly, acting out. She is quite simply a little child. And yet she was able to inflict so very much pain and scarring across my ages. So very much and yet, I now think, only a thimble to the ocean of pain and suffering from my father.
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PR - I've been thinking about the post your wrote about the FOO. I have long known that I can not change those folks but what I am really writing about is more about the effect that does not reside in the rational mind nor the adult being, it is the damage that was done within the child that colored the perspectives that went forward and are carried into adulthood. These are like permanent lenses that one looks through unaware that there is a medium coloring ones perspective. It is the expectation and approach of life looking for the exclusion, wating for the insult or rejection, knowing it is coming, just not when.
And it IS coming. And it s NOT limited to those people who were in my family of origin. Although they will always treat me that way.
Part of what I am working out here is how those lenses do in fact mediate the world for me and how they work differently, each gnerating its own fibers that twisted together create a thread that has been powerfully binding in my life. Those fibers are so intertwined that I have not been able to identify them individually and cut through them. Just recognizing that they fall into different catagories (intntional and unintentional) shines the light on them as though each group were colored differently like a bundle of tiny electical wires in their bright sheaths. Differentiating them in to smaller subcatagories will follow and slowly I wil be able to cut throgh the binds.
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parts of my wounding that are most difficult to write about are the most painful
I suspect that is common to many
but for me there is a special twist on it all
If I complained or "shared" my hurt with my family I was severly punished or humiliated and belittled for it.
So it is difficult to put it down - expecting to be belittled.
But I am in the midst of recognizing some aspect of this wounding that plagues me and yet stays submerged, not quite available to my rational mind.
While there is an expectation of being rejected or left out there is simultaneously a resentment bubbling, broiling up.
I went to a meeting yesterday with a group of "country club" ladies from my mother's age on down to 30s.
I found myself so irritated - irrationally so.
The meeting was outdoors in a new city park and the speaker was someone I have known my entire life who is head of the local community foundation.
she was talking up her foundation and the park and the roll of the foundation in raising the money.
She told a "funny" story about asking her husband (who heads the CocaCola plant here (he got his job from her father as her family is the largest shareholder )) for a contribution. She laughed and said that he joked and said, "You know we don't contribute to green causes." But she went on to say he got caught up in the concept and he and several other business leaders ended up "dishing out big bucks." Everyone laughed.
It was all so smarmy to me - all inside joking, back slapping, patting each other on the back for what a great job "we" have done.
When the talk was over, box lunches were served. I sat on a low wall near the tables and was talking to one of the park workers. Mid conversation, one of my mother's contemporaries walked up, interrupted and, ignoring me, said to the park worker, "are ya'll going to name the plants over there?" The park worker cleverly said, "Yes ma'am. We'll name one after you if you want." "Mrs. B, still not acknowledging me just moved on." There was so much made so clear to me in that small interchange. One was that because I do not have money she no longer needs to speak to me or even acknowledge me and more over she views herself as important enough to interrupt whomever, whenever because their conversation cannot be of value.
It is the latter that I lived with as a child.
What ever I had to say was of little to no importance.
Waht ever I wanted, whatever food was being served whatever anything - I would get what was left and better not complain.
That bottom of the barrel treatment has left a residual of resentment - expectation and resentment.
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I hear you sweetie - I'm away from home dealing with my FOOs insanity - but I have an explanation - maybe it's a tool - for the unintentional wounding.
All I have time for right now, is that you're absolutely "bullseye" on the connection between expectation and resentment.
And the country club ladies? Personally, that kind of insular, self-congratulation, and non-empathetic non-acknowledgement always makes me ask: Do I really care what those people think? Are they such wonderful human beings, that I should care that they don't even see me - much less speak? And - ARE they real people? What skeletons, pain, insecurities, etc are they hiding under that mask of LA-DEE-DA?
I'm sure I'm going to have a lot to process from this trip on the thread Hops started for me... and I want to come back and deal with your example of your mom... and what I see in it... and where you "hidden way out" is in that. But I just can't - hang in there... I do think you're on the path to another HUGE weight off your shoulders.
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I'm thinking about some of the passive aggressive stuff my mother does and wondering if that fits into intentional or unintentional or more likely somewhere in between.
Here is a for instance: My little boy spends the night with her every now and then. She has a very nice, formerly middle class, couple from South America who clean her house. She does not have them clean the bedroom and bath upstairs or change the bed linens. She expects me to do that. She has the money and she likes to help these folks out. They go to her church. But she not only does not want to help me out, she actually intends to cause me more burden than I already have. That is my perspective.
So I guess I put, at least some of her passive aggressive behavior in the intentional pile.
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And the country club ladies? Personally, that kind of insular, self-congratulation, and non-empathetic non-acknowledgement always makes me ask: Do I really care what those people think? Are they such wonderful human beings, that I should care that they don't even see me - much less speak? And - ARE they real people? What skeletons, pain, insecurities, etc are they hiding under that mask of LA-DEE-DA?
You are right about this PR.
But more than that - something in the way you put it shifts my perspective - every so slightly - that I am about to see it in a whole new light - in a way that will work for me - one that has eluded me all these years - that need to belong was so great.
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Yer welcome, m'lady! 8)
I continually re-evaluate who and what I want to belong to... I change; groups change. It really does matter who matters to me, you know, in that concept of belonging? Time, seasons, etc biblical verse. Right now, who I want to belong to doesn't necessarily include my FOO. Sometimes I do care... right now, no. And what I think of my self - who I am and what my value is - doesn't depend on belonging to them.
I can't wait to see what germinates from this seed! :D
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but why couldn't I stop trying???... hoping for a miracle.
I take this from another thread - these words are PR's
I am writing about myself when I try to answer this question for myself though I must phrase it in the present - but the "why" I have an answer for and it is quite simply this - every human needs "family". Every infant needs parents to give it life and to raise it, sucurely, and nurture it. That need, particularly if not met in infancy, simply does not dry up and wither away but eats at us and sucks us in. Why can't I sto p trying - because that need, that whole that craving is so HUGE and because it is provided for so many, for most - so much so that those who have are utterly dismissive (or condemning) of those who never had. That dismissiveness and contempt and rejection is gasoline on the fire. The answer to the suffering is nurturing and the only source is not nurutre at all but torment.
No small disjunction that those children's fables were so often moralistic ass though the world around us were filled with morality when in truth it is just the opposite but that must be bearable for those for whom family is solace rather than those of us for whom family of origin or any other family is simply the opposite. There is no succor. There is no solace. There is only pain and suffering.
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GS, I know you don't like it when I say stuff like this, but, dear GS,
not really Ann. I know that sometimes something bumps me the wrong way but I'm not bothered by your point here.
I don't take issue with what you have written here but
I do take issue with the patness of this line:
I think the best way to "stop trying" is to mourn it & accept it.
as though it is like putting a dish away in the cabinet.
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I don't think it is about gentleness. I think written conversation loses much in translation because tone and body language are completely absent and that leave so much out. I didn't intend to suggest anything about a lack of kindness or any other lack by calling those phrases "pat." So let me spend a little effort to try to convey what I am responding to or about.
I guess, first and foremost, that although each of us here have something in common, none-the-less, our wounds are different and our experiences are different and our needs are different and our suffering and healing are all different as well. And so to there are variations in our sense of and experiences of voicelessness.
for me "accept it" is code for a form of voicelessness - don't talk about it any more, don't fight it, don't (fill in the blank) just go on and take what you get and accept it.
yesterday I spent quite some time writing here but my entire post was lost in ethernet somehow but one of the very issues I was writing about is this need for so many to tell some people to quit trying to get changes or more specifically, if there is a problem just find a different venue. If there is injustice - go somewhere else.
For me, telling someone to "accept it" is one of the most voice removing comment that can be made. It is dismissive. And being dismissed, is in my experience, one of the most powerful tactics that Ns use to render their victims devalued.
I find "mourn it and accept it" like a check list.
mourn it - DONE
accept it - DONE
Now I can put it away like a dish in the cabinet.
As though "it" can be mourned and accepted in one fell swoop or even defined as though it has a singularity or any definition what so ever as though the detriment of such a childhood and the disastrous destruction left in its wake is as simple as sweeping up a shattered vessel and thrown away.
It is so complex and filled with nuances and needs and emptinesses and longings that know no end. there are victories and triumphs and ups and downs and on and on. And there are few places at all on this green planet where people who have suffered from such psychological devastation can voice their struggles and pains and workings out. this is sometimes such a place but sometimes even it is a place where we are expected to "mourn it and accept it." What ever that it may be.
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Well I guess it is I who should have been walking on eggshells.
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I find "mourn it and accept it" like a check list.
mourn it - DONE
accept it - DONE
Now I can put it away like a dish in the cabinet.
GS - I've quoted this, because I think it's excellent! I want to add some more detail, tho....
Step 1 - mourn it - has no "rules" or right way to do this; it can take years to really complete this. This is the getting to know those feelings so well, going back to them over & over making sure you didn't miss anything... that eventually, one develops a short-hand for this one particular mourning. It feels like an "OH, there's that again".
One needs to feel safe and acknowledged; to know that one matters - and know that their feelings are "allowed" - to mourn. I had to learn how to do this, accept myself and need to mourn, away from the toxic environment that created the need, in the first place. Pretty much by myself - alone - too. I needed that kind of privacy because of the old level of fear I had over showing any feelings... I'm opening up about that a little more these days; it's still not an "ordinary" thing for me.
Step 2 - accept it - is similar; it is not a decision one makes... there's no real "doing" involved at all; it's more a feeling that happens - again, on it's on it's own timetable - once one starts to feel the "OH, there's that again" about the mourning one was doing. It can be so gradual, that it's imperceptible - one just doesn't notice one is starting to feel this and accept it (and importantly, it's not the kind of acceptance that happens in one's mind; I've known about my mom & bro's P-A characteristics for probably 30 years. Knowing isn't the same thing at ALL....) Right now, I can look back and see a few milestones where I was starting to accept the reality of my mom and bro... and where I started changing myself... to stop the game for myself, to express myself very clearly, to start releasing my expectations for specific outcomes... and simply let what will be, be. There's another step in that changing of myself... but it doesn't belong here.
Step 3 - putting it away like a dish in the cabinet - YES. When you do finally feel the finality of acceptance, letting the obsession go and moving on is no more significant emotionally than a simple physical act like this. All the blood, sweat & tears... wails... longing... yearning... feeling and fearing that one will be obliterated and cease to exist if one gives up the struggle -- all that takes place in step 1; echos of it happen in step 2 but without the emotional intensity... step 2 also has some elements of forgiving oneself for not being able to overcome the obstacles to relationship, presented by the FOO... and this might be the genesis (I'm guessing) of finally getting to the acceptance feeling. Step 2 can be shorter than step 1... one thing I found that helped was to make as many new connections with people I liked and to strengthen connections I had that already existed. Developing that group of non-FOO people to create my Phamily. This turned out to be as important for me as therapy.
But that finality - the complete and total emotional acceptance that one is simply NEVER going to be able have that relationship that one wants (and after years of anger, rage, sorrow and resentment... how in the world could it be possible?) - that finality feels no more signficant to me right now, emotionally and personally, than putting a dish away on the shelf. Truly. It's not sad or painful at all. All my emotions are used up... I don't depend on their approval, acceptance, agreement nor cooperation (soon) for anything about me. I don't even care if they think they like me - their actions tell me their true feelings; I don't matter to them. It's like trying to get the attention of a rock...
I only hurt myself - over & over - if I pretend that I do matter to them and go through the empty (and hurtful) motions of trying keep up the charade of having a relationship with those two people. I can still care about them, mind you. I don't hate them. I do have empathy for the trials & tribulations they create for themselves - and I know that both of them have feelings. But they're like alcoholics who are so addicted to their brand of mental illness that they actually prefer this over reality. A professional might be able to eventually get through to them; I'm no professional even with all I've learned in this process. I don't have the objectivity.
This particular brand of sickness uses a "normal's" empathy, their normal relationship style... to suck them into the spider web of P-A deceit... and then they violate boundaries without cognition; repeatedly... and gaslight and deny what they did or excuse it and blame and shame the normal angry reaction that is the result of a boundary violation. They are dangerous and toxic to me... for me to survive and stay sane myself... I must keep referring to step 2... and keep putting that dish back on the shelf.
It's not my fault; it's not my responsibility; and life has decided that I'm not going to find what I need and want - with THOSE PEOPLE. Lucky for me, there are lots & lots of other people in this world - like you, GS.... and the rest of my Phamily here and in 3-D.
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My mother does her nasty work in a mix of intentional and unintentional states.
It is impossible to sort them out.
Easter, she invited my little boy and me over for dinner along with 5 or 6, 70+ year olds.
On Monday before Easter my child asked if his young cousins were "coming as usual."
I got on the phone to find out. My cousin was having her mother and sister and nieces over.
I decided to cross the line and invite ourselves - only I couldn't get my cousin on the phone - day after day.
I called her mother and Facebooked her sister.
MY mother responded to my Facebook message (my cousins "friend" not MINE) with the comment, "You can go next year."
When I finally reached my cousin on Saturday she said to come on over, that she had invited us all but that my mother had declined the invitation. (Never mind that my son's and my invitation was a call to my mother - which she never passed along.)
My mother intentionally did not let me know. She could care less that Easter with a bunch of septegenarians is boring for a 10 year old (much less a 50 year old). I can borrow some language from PR's post and insert here.
"It's abundantly clear that MomBro doesn't have a clue about me, what I need, and they flat out, write it on a billboard - DON'T CARE. I think I'm over the idea of expecting "family" to instinctively, naturally, see me as a human being with free will and value. Hell, they don't even acknowledge that I care and try to help them!!"
It is so negating as a human to know that there is not a single, solitary soul on this earth who cares about what I need or want. It takes a toll that I cannot describe. Today my trials and tribulations are more than I can take. I am grinding down into an abyssmal hopelessness, helplessness. for me - a huge percentage of the burden is having few if any who can understand and who don't chime in with (to borrow again from PR) "why don't you just let it go and move on?"
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It is so negating as a human to know that there is not a single, solitary soul on this earth who cares about what I need or want.
These are the kinds of thoughts we need to learn to talk back to, GS.
I CARE ABOUT YOU, and I think - not sure yet - that I'm still a solitary soul (as much as I've been obsessing about the others, you know?).
And if you saw me or Hops or CB or tt out on the street... you wouldn't know that we cared about you, until we started swapping stories with each other and gave us a chance to demonstrate caring. And it's funny - even folks with "good enough" families - have this instant recognition and even some of their own stories to share. What we're going through isn't that rare, GS... I'm beginning to think it's way more common that the "official" studies know. But no one knows this about us, unless we talk. The "happy family" is less common than popularly believed, I think. It's mostly a myth. There are issues in every family - ours are just more extreme and everyone else in our families are denying they're the problem.
We have to beware the kinds of thoughts like this, GS - the external control over us, that gets internalized, so that we do it to ourselves - the self-isolating for various reasons, the refusal of help, and in my case deliberate self-abuse as a form of resistance, my own kind of "control", a plea for help - externalizing internal wounds... and a not very succesful means of trying to get my FOOs recognition that I am a human, I feel, and they're mean.
Even if I set myself on fire - that still doesn't change them or how they don't care about me. They wouldn't even show shame or remorse or sadness... so all I can do is put one foot in front of the other, figure out what I need & want, and go get it. I'll start my "training" thread soon....
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I hear you PR. I hear you loud and clear.
I do know that I am talking about something here - not yet articulate about it.
In my 3-D, day to day life, the dad blame struggles are so endless and so difficult. Each and every aspect seems so darn hard with absurd number of obstacles and barriers to get over. No doors opening with ease, no humans there to lend a helping hand but plenty of "family" there to knock me down a notch and sabotage and belittle (sometimes directly but mostly behind the back.)
You are right about setting self on fire - very clear about that. Clear too that people in hosptiatl who have attitude that pain is going to get better are the ones most likely to get better. I am much better on that line with physical pain than with pain in my soul. That pain feels at times like a burgeoning fireball.
But I do hear you and receive your message. and will use your energy to put hte brakes on and start to shift into a different direction. Thank you for that.
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It's just that I know from sad, frustrating, crazy-making experience... sigh... that the harder we want, the harder we try, to get through to the ones who feel free to abuse us - even emotionally (the sick ones) - all we're going to wind up with is more of the same. To me, it was a revelation to find that WOW - other people aren't like that! They don't see me the same way and don't treat me like that. And that's when I started to question all the things I thought I knew about me - the things my family believed about me in their delusionary world; drilled into my head; and forced me to accept about me - to satisfy their own need for control and ego-trips. For me to be their emotional puppet... with them pulling my strings.
"OH SHAME on Amber... how selfish to think only of all the things on her to-do list at home, in her own life, with a husband who waits patiently like a well-trained border collie (sorry sweetie) for me to come back, instead of giving up weeks or months taking care of my mom and making my bro's life "all better" again ..." As if they were gonna let me do this, in the first place. No way, Jose.
I realized I had a whole lot of learning & experiencing to do that I'd put aside for this buried issue of my FOO. And the ONLY way to do that was to engage, meet, hang out with and talk to other people. At that point I had a part of me that belonged in, was accepted in and connects to - the real world. That began to balance the insanity of MomBro's warped reality... offset it and even the effects on me... and I started to define myself by what I knew about myself in that "other world". .. now, I realize I'm allergic to those sicko people!! Yeah, occasionally I find people who set off my sicko radar - and if I can't avoid them, good boundary work seems to do the trick.
At 54, I'm finding I really didn't even know myself for most of my life. My real emotions have real substance; validity. And given those emotions, and all the accumulated-the-hard-way life lessons... I really can "operate" by the seat of my pants pretty well; I can trust myself and my instincts. And my emotions aren't overwhelming... the obsession I've been fighting is more an old mind-program that got kick-started by being in the toxic proximity of all that madness. Today, I've hardly thought about it, except when writing here. YAY.
Maybe it would help, in the day to day stuff, if you realize what you always felt you WERE; always told you WERE; always blamed for being... was then - in the company of sickos who were quite possibly incapable of even seeing you for who you are. And that each day we get another chance to BE something else... because each swiftly progressing present moment is the only possibility we have of changing - trying something different - feeling something different - BEING who we really are. We get another chance, every single second. We can't change in the past and the future isn't here yet - the "now" is the only door to something else. Maybe it's wearing a pretty spring dress - for no other reason than you want to. Maybe it's stopping for an ice cream cone and enjoying the flowers and sun. Maybe it's being assertive about what you need/want with some bored, tedious bureaucratic flunky... and not letting who they are, get to you. Bye! and you're off to another task - or just being - in the real world, with real people being the real you. Maybe it's setting boundaries for yourself about how much contact with Nmom is really good for you... and finding ways to socialize with people YOU like (liking you, comes later... it takes second place to people you like; not like the superficial, fakey country club women - if you don't like them, who cares if they like you? God doesn't ask them for recommendations about who gets into heaven).
A person's identity - personality - character is meant to grow and change over the years. Even the way we see ourselves, in our own mind's eye... changes over time. Or it should, if we're growing, evolving, human beings. And the only thing effective to stop that - is ourselves. Everything else - the old abuse, the habits & reactions and old emotions from "way back when" or yesterday - the delusionary "control" abusers think they have over us - is just brainwashing nonsense. It's probably not you, at all.
This is just my way of thinking about it; maybe a self-soothing rationalization - but it works for me:
if trying to please, get the attention, love, acknowledgement of the sick people in my family made me miserable - and I still didn't get the result I wanted - why not just be me and if the result is still the same as before (and other people haven't been frightened away from me or offended)... well then, maybe I'm just fine the way I am and it's THEM as has the problem.. and ya know what? Under those circumstances, I'd just as soon keep as much distance between us as possible. I really do prefer the company of people who are NOT MomBro... and there seem to be a lot of those people; plenty for me.
Who needs 'em? ya know? There are plenty of people who don't have family and they're just fine. We're all grown up - and I for one, couldn't care less what a bunch of sickos think about me. I can pat myself on the back, give myself a break, and go work & play & make big & little decisions that might or might not turn out well... and well, that's life. Life is too short to make myself a slave to people who don't appreciate me - just ask my 2 ex-husbands!! I used to think that "blood was thicker than water"... that one is obligated and tied to family forever - no matter how warped they are. Myth - and some brainwashing, too. The fact that MomBro offends & outrages me... well, that's a new development. But I'm just tired of just talking about it; I need to DO something about it now. I just haven't been ready, because I still believed there was a slim, miraculous possiblity that 54 years of experience was wrong... and they really could change. No more.
But I can. And so can you. Just grab the present moment and breathe - into now - who you really are and let it push all the yuck out. Build the foundations of YOUR life, the way you want it, in the real world... and just walk away from people who cause you pain, anger, consternation, and make you crazy. You're allowed.
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I always get something so valuable in reading your posts. They often trigger in me some thought or understanding that is not quite or not directly related to your writing but it releases something for me anyway.
I did quit long ago trying to or even hoping for any kind of love from my FOO. So that is not a goal of mine but there is a bitterness that is somehow related to the struggle or disparity between reality and the lie - the pretense - and for some reason I take this rejection and the the pain of it all and the expectation and the searching for sabotage (juxtaposed against the support and help most people I know actually receive) at every corner - I take this out into the world around. This is an outgrowth of the experience of my family experience that was so deeply ingrained.
I have written about this so many times but it is not yet exhausted. Of course i know that the bitterness or the pain need to be let go but it is the process that must be discovered. It is not simply by knowing that anger or bitterness or jealousy or any residual of a psyche formed by N parents, is not good. The release or the work is about making the connections, much like connecting a powercord to the outlet and thus the grid. These connections must be made - it is the brain's need for structure and organization. It is the connecting of unconscious, subconscious and conscious that does the RE-ordering and that re-ordering brings the healing.
Working it out, making the connections, telling the stories over and over and over until the pieces are finally connected. It is a giant puzzle that take meticulous, relentless work. tireless work.
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My neighborhood was hit hard this morning by a series of tornados. One neighbor was killed when he was assessing the damage after the tornado and was hit by a falling tree. If I can figure out how to upload photos from my phone I will post them. Whole swaths of wooded areas just leveled. Our local toy store and Starbucks damaged and closed until further notice. No electricity expected for over a week at our home and surrounding area.
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Oh MY... well, you're OK - and your little boy? how is your house? I know from experience how one house is completely spared while the rest of the neighborhood can be levelled. A couple weeks ago, a tornado from the mainland just missed us as it sped across the sound to Duck, NC.
What are your immediate needs? Can you handle those?
I can't imagine what you're going through right now. But I'll stay online till my eyes close tonight and check back to see how you are, if you think to post.
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Another storm is raging now. Many tornados htting all around. What a day!
Truly PR, in the case of emergencies I am very, very good.
And in this case i am beyond fortunate.
So much destruction around me and yet my child and I and our home, pets and car are all ok.
I cannot ask for more.
A friend's relatives lost a total of 3 homes this morning.
It is scary just waiting for the storms to pass.
Schools were closed early, Most businesses except for functioning Starbucks and other coffee houses, entire shopping malls - all closed. gorcery stores - closed. In my neighborhood all grocery stores and gas stations are closed except one which has a generator and it has long lines and is out of the mid-level gas (and their prices are the highest in town - surprise, surprise.)
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How are you situated for surviving for a week without power? water, laundry, cooking, bathroom etc?
Any important medications you're short on?
Glad to hear you're good in emergencies! Living where I do, we start hurricane preparedness about now and continue through early fall; and my other life experiences meant that I also managed well without modern conveniences. Others, I know, don't have the first idea how to function - they never had to. Maybe you can share your resourcefulness with your neighbors? Hubs has a cousin who's now in Atlanta; she's wondering what to do in her apartment building if they go under warning. In Norfolk, tornados are rare - as they are here, in OBX. The ones a couple weeks ago were the first in 13 years. We get your severe weather tomorrow - so I'll be busy battening hatches early a.m.
If you have photos on your computer, you should be able to add them as attachments to a post. I think!
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GS,
I'm glad you're OK.
Has the local CERT, (Community Emergency Response Team) been mobilized? What about the Red Cross?
Pat McCoy
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My lord, GS--
I am watching that terrifying monster in your town as I type.
Enormous.
I am so so so glad you and M are okay!
I can't believe the size. I haven't seen a tornado like that since one that took out a huge swath of Louisville in the 70s.
Please, keep us posted.
Stay safe.
love to you,
Hops
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My neighborhood was hit hard but its damage was dwarfed by the devastation that hit yesterday afternoon. In the morning it was estimated that it would be up to a week before electricity would be restored but now there are almost 400,000 without eletricity and it could take much, much longer.
I have no idea how we will function. Last night there was nothing to eat because no fridge and no stove and no restaurants or grocery stores. Trying to figure out for tonight.
I simply would rather find a way to make it rather than going to my mother's. Right now that is simply more than I can do.
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Sweetie - that's a hard choice. Does she have power? (I mean the electric kind! ooopss...) Don't forget to keep a daily check on your place. Desperate people do stupid things sometimes and it's really hard to lose what you do have - when it's not a whole lot.
You will do what you think best, I know. Just don't be afraid to change your mind later, if the situation becomes uncomfortable. God knows, it's not inconceivable (to me) that these strange people could even blame us for the weather...
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I could change my mind but honestly I doubt it.
I have checked out a couple of shelters for laundry etc but no luck so far.
I stayed at home last night.
The biggest problem is food.
Darkness during sleep is no problem and today drug stores are open so I can buy more batteries.
No lights is far preferable to N, PA attack for now.
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AH! I hear the red cross food trucks are on their way. Hot food has a tendency to just "feel" more filling to me...
We finally have thunder; the storms are here now - but far weaker than you had, I believe. I'm merely hoping we get some real rain out of it. (I've been planting.) We're under tornado warning, but local weather doesn't show anything immanent. You gotta check out Dr G's thread - it's so hilarious I can't even think of something semi-witty to reply with.
Be safe - and if ya do take shelter at your mom's at least reassure yourself that it's temporary.
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gotta get off - that last one was CLOSE.
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(((((((((((((((GS)))))))))))))))))
I am grieving for your community and again,
so very grateful to know you and M are safe.
It is a terrible thing and I hope somehow,
some spirit of togetherness might transcend
all other barriers as you all must face this.
Many thoughts your way, all day,
with love,
Hops
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GS
Hope all is well with you and that you get the resources you need right now.
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Here are some photos from my area (not my neighborhood.)
http://photos.al.com/4461/gallery/pratt_city_alabama_tornado_damage_042711/index-2.html
This one is close to my neighborhood:
http://photos.al.com/birmingham-news/2011/04/alabama_storm_damage_12.html
This page is of images of a commercial district within walking distance of my house.
These are stores we shop in and restaurants we eat in and gas stations where we get gas:
http://photos.al.com/4461/gallery/alabama_storm_damage/index-3.html
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I received a call from my brother who quit talking to me the week before our father died in February.
I still don't know why he no longer speaks.
He didn't mention it in his phone call.
He called because there is an issue about a residual from our paternal grandfather's will that now comes to us.
It is a small amount of money that has been held in trust. The local bank was merged with Wachovia a few years ago and in the Sept 2008 financial collapse Wachovia was handed over to Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo does not want to handled this small trust residual but they want to adjudicate (at a significant cost). for some reason all communication concerning this has been between my brother and Wells Fargo. I have received no notice.
My brother called to notifiy me of a conference call that is to take place in one hour. He just forwarded the e-mail he received on tuesday at noon.
The issue at hand is very straight forward.
The detrius stirred up is not.
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Yikes GS!
You have a lot of stuff going on over there. Good luck with that conference call if you can get on it at all?
Still possible that you will get some of the money? Because your brother doesn't determine all of that even if he is manipulating it some? I don't know the history of all this I haven't read the whole story.
Just seems wild that you were hit with tornadoes and now you have to deal will positioning for inheritance right now.
Good Luck X Good Luck X Good Luck
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and here I was thinking he called to be sure you were all right after the storms...
:(
Hops
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Thanks Boat.
I have known since my grandfather died in 1982 that I would receive a residual trust. What I did not expect was that my father would be allowed to spend it down to very, very little. The amount is not really the issue at hand for me. I have received a 2 minute briefing on the purpose of the ocnference call so I cannot speak authoritatively nor knowledgeably about it but from what I understand the call is about the issue of requesting the bank to not adjudicate the tranfer of the funds to another financial institution. Wells Fargo does not want to maintain the trust. it is now under the size that they hold. However, they want to put the transfer through the court system in order to shield themselves from liabilities. however. The cost to litigat rather than simply transfer will eat up a significant portion of the meager amount. It is all about Well Fargo and not about the customer. The cost is less significant to them but moreso to us. Typical corporatist bank attitude.
for me - one of the issues is not being a part of the dialogue. i suspect I am needed to indicate that we are all on the same page.
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My out of state brother did.
But not my intown brother but I wouldn't expect him to as he chose to quit speaking to me several months ago.
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Oh, ok, I see what you are saying now GS.
It is odd that you got so little warning time though about the conference call and little involvement. That is typically how a person behaves when they are trying to cut someone out of the process.
Do let us know how the call goes and also how you are getting by in the dark and with less food?
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Are you saying... that there is a cost to transfer the trust to another institution? A fee? Wouldn't that fee be paid by the trust itself?
The other issues: OY VEY!! Under the circumstances - surviving a devastating tornado - you shouldn't be expected to drop everything to participate in any kind of conference call and common courtesy would necessitate a rescheduling, at your request - as one of the benefiiciaries. (Bro may not be wholly sane - but the bank people, you should find, will be more accommodating and sympathetic - that is, if they are aware of your circumstances. They are actually feeling human beings; not just faceless corporate bureaucrats.)
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PR - actually it is the bank employees who are being unreasonable - not about the timing but about the release of this trust.
Here is the basic fact - the trust which paid out to my father (which he was given illegal access to the principle - a separate issue) is now small respective to Wells Fargo terms. When it is split into thirds it bottoms out of their size requirement. However, they are not at this time willing to release the assets according to the requests of my brothers. (Somehow I was left out of notification until late morning last Wednesday.)
Yes the trust would pay the fee but that money is money that will be coming to my brothers and me. The bank wants to pay legal fees to a law firm that charges very high rates. We know that firm. It was my maternal grandfather's firm. It is the largest firm in our state and bears our grandfather's name. We do not want to incur the legal fees that will come out of our trust. We simply want the transfer of the trusts to occur without being litigated. The problem is that the Wells Fargo attorney assigned to our account is not familiar with the law in our state and it is simply easier for her to hire a law firm and charge the costs to us. That is the point at issue.
So I have the responsibility of finding a financial entity to receive my portion. I have two days.
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OH JEEZ... good luck, GS...
all that sounds way too familiar to me. I'll splain later...
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I hate that it sounds familiar PR.
Truthfully - this is such small potatoes for me in an emotional way but it is shining the light on some things that are helpful in digging through so I can honestly welcome this process regardless of the outcome. (so she thinks)
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((((((GS))))))))
I keep thinking of your father as the tornado in your life.
And how strange that it came through so soon after he left.
Wreckage, and hope for community, and for you.
An awful force that opened a new path, so painfully.
love to you,
Hops
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Oh my heavens Hops - that really connects for me.
thinking maybe I can use that as a metaphor and begin to rebuild with my neighbors but in a different way.
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The image of a tornado is quite accurate and powerful...
one of my first physical clues that helped me get back to Twiggy's story; those memories - was a drawing I did back then while hiding from my mom in my closet (which was an early terror source for me; the monsters lived in my closet - still, it was safer than being around my mom). I had been given a small suitcase complete with a doll and set up to hold doll clothes on hangers. The outside was covered in scraps of wall paper.
In Sharpie, I drew a tornado; helicopters ("incoming!" was just getting starting to get around then) and my brother & I - complete with me flat out; unconscious on the ground and him crying.
That was one of my first clues... I dug out the suitcase and took digital photos; it was part of my "proof & evidence" for myself that what I remembered was REAL; it really did happen and I didn't just dream or imagine it, like my mom insisted in her "big lie". What we experienced that March, FELT just like a tornado had exploded our whole life and nothing but shattered bits & pieces remained.
Then I gave the doll & suitcase to a co-worker's little girl who lost everything in their house in a fire.
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Pr - I feel compelled to respond to let you know that I have read and heard this story but it also leaves me speechless, feeling kicked in the gut. It is a very rivoting story, evocative of such pain - no words.
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Luv, does it help to know that I'm so used to that pain that I almost don't feel it anymore? (rare occasions - yes; proximity to same old toxic crap - yes). Please don't pain yourself, on my account... I'm so used to it I barely take notice.
It's like having a bum knee and stepping wrong; a reminder to myself that I was injured there... that's what it's like to tell those stories about discovery of "what happened" - and even, in some ways, the current drama-crap. I'm sooooooo weary of it. I would love to not have to deal with it - at all. And I don't - I barely think of these memories anymore. It was just the striking strength & aptness of Hops' image that rang up the re-telling. I retold it, for you... so you know someone ELSE "knows" what's that's like.
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I watched "tangled" with my son last night and wish I had the dialogue to excerpt here bit by bit.
The movie is an animated musical version of Rapuntzel.
In the movie an evil woman has kidnapped Rapuntzel and hidden her away in a secret tower because Rapuntzel's hair has a special healing power which keeps this crone young.
She comes to see Rapuntzel frequently expressing love and seemingly to dote on her daughter.
In an early scene the crone has rapuntzel fetch a hand mirror so the crone can admire her image. She says something like, "So young, so beautiful, so lovely." And then she glanses over at Rapuntzel and laughs and says - "oh you too!"
The movie is just the thing that I wish we could all watch together and discuss afterward as a group. There are numerous scenes where the crone tells Rapuntzel how much she loves her but she denies the one thing Rapuntzel longs for and she does it by telling Rapuntzel it is for her own good in the long term when in fact the opposite is true and the crone is denying rapuntzel's wish purely for the crones own desires.
There are several scenes with stunning lines about a N caretaker who is poisoning the mind of the child into believing that that which is against the very needs and best interests of the child are in fact best for her - essentially destroying Rapuntzel's best chances in life. Of course it all works out for Rapuntzel in the end. and this woman is NOT her birth mother - that would hardly go over even in fiction but it is a depiction of precisely what some of us here lived though.
I was stunned that Disney could come so close in depicting life in an N family IN A CHILDREN'S MOVIE!!!!
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Grimm's Fairy Tales, GS.... even Mother Goose...
Hansel & Gretl, for another... Rumpelstiltskin... even Snow White... Cinderella...
I do believe these stories were written for children as "teaching stories" - like the Sufi Tales - to illustrate what "emotional abuse" (or physical abuse) can happen in life. There are moral conclusions drawn; heros; resistance; and not all of them have the conventional "happy ending".
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One of the reviews of Tangled mentions how the crone Goethel makes snide, cutting put downs and then laughs and says just joking! When Rapunzel finally breaks away, in this children's film, she goes through a series of conflicting responses in rapid succession - first reeling in delight and joy and then sobbing in guilt for betraying her mother and then swinging in utter abandon then banging herself in shame and back and forth and back and forth.
Sound familiar to anyone other than me?
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Yes PR you are so right.
This version of Rapunzel is like watching a flip book version of so hidden aspects of my own childhood right there i nfront of the whole world and surprise, surprise, most of the audiences see it but miss it. As so it was with my life and i suspect that of others with N parents.
While looking for thoughtful reviews or analysis of Tangled i found a sight that is new to me.
http://daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/
Is anyone here familiar with this site?
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My sister-in-law (the one who quit speaking to me days before my father died [along with my brother] for reasons unknown to me) is from a small town that was leveled by the EF-5 tornado. By bizarre hapenstance, my sons cubscout pack and the boy scouts and girls scouts in that suburb have selected that town to collect school supplies for their school which was wiped off the earth.
So my child called his aunt (unaware of her curtain of silence) to tell her what he is participating in. She was on her way there. It is a 2 hour drive and I imagine this is not her first trip.
I am wondering if this might engender any shift in her. Not expecting it and knowing it will not be down to the core but curious none-the-less.
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You know, it's interesting - those old tales also have clear descriptions of how the main character overcomes the adversity in his/her situation. Might be interesting to comtemplate those - as well as the uncanny likenesses of the villains to real-life Ns. Might be a how-to or two, lurking right there in plain sight! (I'd have to go look myself... to confirm.)
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That is such a good point.
I am spending some time still in the "affirmation" stage - still needing affirmation for myself about how vile and vicious it really was because there was so much and IS so much pretense to the contrary. that has caused great internal confusion for me. Still sorting and working it out.
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Beginning to connect frustrations of contemporary life with the pain and wounding from the earliest days.
For years I felt this building frustration and had absolutely no idea what was the source. Today it is connecting. I find growing frustration over incidents that are certainly frustrating on their own merit but which should be of a level that I can easily slough them off - rather I find the frustration only increasing over time rather than abating. The feeling itself is wretched and as it grows the wretchedness grows with it but the other side is that as the feelings increase my coping skills decrease.
As I am beginning to connect this feeling with past abusive experiences during a period of powerlessness in which my very survival depended on receiving the abuse, tolerating it, as this connection is made I am finding a toehold on which I can begin to climb out of that abyss and create or restructure some kind of solid foundation. But this requires that I be in touch with and acknowledge the original wounding and the associated overwhelming pain. It is staying in that pain without succumbing to it that is so difficult but moving away into an avoidance has been where all the damage has been created across the years of my life.
The other side of this connection has been when I have connected with the original pain using the tapping of EFT. While doing that I have experienced the connections from original woundings out to later experiences and even current experiences which are built on those original pains and through which these more recent experiences feel so overwhelmingly intolerant.
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((((GS))))
My friend, the only one I know in 3-D who also has a completely Nmother...absolutely RAVED to me about Rapunzel, for the same reason. It had a very powerful effect on her, as it did you. I really must see this movie. Thanks for talking about it here.
I was excited to read what you said about the disproportionality of your reaction to contemporary frustrating events...and where that comes from. And, especially, your recognition that hooking the two together (the one--the past--showing itself as now out of scale) is a toehold.
Yes! I think this is really a hugely significant statement. And I believe it really is...and perhaps even a whole rung of the ladder.
Good going, you.
xo
Hops
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Thanks Hops - this connection is helping understand why I have such strong reactions. When I'm in the midst of it I am able to know that I can later find out what the original wound is that is causing such a powerful reaction. I had such an experience today. I hope that tonight or early tomorrow I can figure out what it is connected to. We will see.
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A good portion of the obstacles that I am identifying and which I must overcome have to do with a kind of brain-washing or aculturization that was both intentionally and perhaps unintentionally inflicted on me and to a lesser degree my brothers by my father. That which was done intentionally was done in order to keep him in power. It was not unlike that which was done by medieval kings to their subjects.
I recall learning from my mother, in my late teens, that my father had the intention of keeping my brothers and me from "growing up." She told me this by way of relaying to me that he did not want her to tell us how young she was when she got married because he did not want us to "get any ideas." She made the connection that he did not want us to grow up. In other words he wanted to keep control over our thoughts.
I am putting coneections together to lsee how on some level I bought into more of this than I have recently realized. I bought into parts of this in order to maintain a belonging. This is very difficult to explain for many reasons. But he used spoken and unspoken "rules" of what a person of our family would or must do. These rules are deeply buried into my very sense of identity and are difficult to extract. As I do extract them I am able to see that these are indeed some of those "strings that hold the elephant". Part of what is helping me illuminate them is understanding that he did this in great part intentionally.