Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sKePTiKal on April 20, 2011, 09:28:12 AM
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an answer to what's dysfunctional in my family... what the name is... and it was right there in front of me the whole time. Oh well.
I'm calling it pathological passive-aggressiveness. Because my mom & bro's personalities - their whole identities - are based on this controlling and manipulative strategy. It bears a lot of resemblance to Nism... BPD even... and lines are, in reality, very blurry between all these PDs with those two. But the predominant behavior involved that's dysfunctional is clearly, undeniably (except by them, of course) P-A.
It also explains my role in the FOO - how I cooperated and participated in my own abuse. I was more than happy to oblige them by becoming angry at their impossibly frustrating, invalidating and disempowering behaviors. I even went so far, as to adopt the "if you can't beat 'em - join 'em" strategy of mimicking their style of behavior (self-abuse & sabotage)... just to feel "accepted" by them and not the "enemy", I suppose because I hoped that then, they'd finally care about me. Riiiiiigght...
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It was something that happened on my trip; a slow-dawning realization as I puzzled through whys and hows of trying to understand both the past and the present situations I find myself in with my brother... and because they are joined at the hip and brain... my mother as well. Because my brother assiduously avoided me, I was left with his wife - the SIL that's taken my place, my role in their sick dramas. I've been aware of the P-A behaviors, all through my process of healing; including my own... but I really didn't see how central and important it is to the dynamic. Maybe it was SILs anger at my brother that triggered the final association and connection and helped me finally understand.
:: shivers!!::
When faced with all this again, for some reason... I didn't really get visibly angry or respond that way to them. I AM angry, mind you... I went to the expense of travelling up there to help out my brother and help reach a decision about care for my mother and as it turns out, a.) he didn't need me to help out and b.) despite having made arrangements for temporary nursing home care - which was the doctor's strong recommendation - she is being cared for at home, which for a lot of logistical & medical reasons is setting up the conditions for a larger problem and possibly setting my mom up for a relapse, a fall, or worse. It was clear to both SIL and myself, that when my brother didn't come home to talk to me, as we'd arranged - and we finally heard from him that he was going to the hospital instead - that he was going to do just what he wanted in spite of the doctor's recommendations. I went back to my hotel and prepared to get on my flight the next morning. All told, in 4 days, my bro and I spent a total of maybe - at most - two hours together.
I know this isn't going to end well. In the 10 years or so that they've been married, I haven't been that close to SIL, though I did like her. She's 20 some years younger than my brother and bless her heart - she wasn't even consulted about my mom living with them. It was just announced to her. I hadn't heard that before. Now I have her phone and email. She is very, very angry - and it's old and deep anger. I have been scrupulous about minding my own business, staying out of the danger zone of triangulations and boundary violations, but it's clear that she can use some positive support. Unlike me, she doesn't doubt her own sanity or think there's something wrong with herself for not being just like them. I guess that's the difference in age, relationship and exposure during personality development.
The mother - GC son relationship never had any room for me in it. I finally understood that when SIL told me that in reality bro is married to my mother. That's more than just she feels this way, you know. Little, but significant things from the past and present all come into clarity with that one piece of reality. Explanations for why, even after he was out of college and an adult - he still kept a room at mother's and went home for the "summer".... until he moved her into his own home. It explains why brother rejects even expert advice on business decisions - with simply saying no - and is now putting me in a position where I must find a non-aggressive means of defending myself or dissolve the relationship. It explains the complete unjustified lack of trust he has in me. S'all about control... you know? It also explains the perception I had - both when my dad died, and now this - where I sensed his almost toddler like emotional neediness and dependency; but he himself wouldn't admit to that at all, when I asked him to express himself.
So.... setting my own path and sticking to it.... and letting all this settle around me before doing anything, except for that which has already been initiated. Doing the research on how to cope with p-a people first... and taking another look at my own; looking for the stressors that send me back into self-sabotage/abuse... here are a couple useful things I found.
I'll copy into new posts...
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http://mental-health.families.com/blog/dealing-with-a-passive-aggressive-manipulator-2
Dealing with a Passive-Aggressive Manipulator (2)
by Beth McHugh | More from this Blogger
In Dealing with a Passive-Aggressive Manipulator (1), we looked at some of the thoughts patterns, beliefs, and behaviors of the passive-aggressive person. In this article, we will look at ways to minimize the damage they can cause in your life.
Because the passive-aggressive person inherently believes they are blameless, innocent, and basically good people, anything that threatens that view of themselves threatens the very core of their being. They live in a world where they must conceal all the "awful" things about themselves at all costs.
Yet, for the most, none of these things are awful at all. They are normal human emotions. Emotions like anger, disappointment, sorrow. The passive-aggressive, perfect as they are in their own minds, simply do not get angry. They do not yell, nor are they so undignified as to lose their temper. They'll leave that up to you, so that, once again, they can justify that they are the ones in control. While you, on the other hand, are clearly a difficult and hurtful person.
As they hunger so much for approval, if they don't get it when they expect, the rage will come out. But the rage comes out in a muted form: sighs, sulks, sniffs. That way, they can easily maintain their façade, if questioned, that they are not angry at all. Somehow admitting to normal human emotions is next to impossible for these people.
So, how best to cope with one?
1. If you ask "What is wrong?" in response to a period of pronounced sighing or sulking and the answer is "Oh, nothing," simply say, "Okay". This is making the PA responsible for their own responses. In time it may make them actually admit that they are angry, and valuable progress may be made. As a bonus, you, as the potential victim, will not get sucked in to yet another round of Question and Answer Time, where you will ultimately lose.
2. Be direct and assertive yourself. If you are angry, say so. If you are disappointed with a passive-aggressive, let them know. Do not be sidetracked into using their language of vagueness and non-assertiveness. Insist on the language of reality.
3. Do not enter into a battle with a PA; once you have done so, you have lost the war. The only person you can change in this situation is yourself, so you must approach each potential "battle" by suspending your own beliefs about the way your relationship with this person "should" be. You must accept that it is not going to be the way it "should be." Easy to say, hard to do, but necessary for your own mental health.
4. Observe their actions, not their words. Although they genuinely believe they do everything for other's interest and not their own, their actions speak louder than their words. Do not take their sugary platitudes at face value, it is only their actions that you should take note of.
5. Always give lots of positive feedback. As PA's crave love, when they do genuinely perform well, heap praise on them. Technically this is a form of counter-manipulation, but honest praise is still honest praise.
6. Avoid criticism. This will only elicit an endless stream of explanations, rather than what you want: an apology. Nor will there be any behavior changes. Accept that apologies or personality changes are almost impossible to come by with a person with this affliction.
7. Do not waste your time attempting to explain to the PA why their behavior is in error. It's easy to believe that at some point you will get through to this person and they will experience the "Ah-ha!" phenomenon, and all will be well. This is particularly the case with people who are themselves very rational and logical. This process cannot work with the PA.
8. If you can't control your temper, avoid interacting with a PA. Your temper will be interpreted by them as further evidence of your abuse towards them, and further justify their own position as innocent martyr. Under these circumstances, it is better to keep your distance.
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http://www.newliving.com/issues/nov_2003/articles/passive.html
NOTE: this is a book by the author of below, that might be helpful: The Anger Trap
Dealing with the Passive-Agressive Personality
by Dr. Les Carter
Nancy was at her wits end, not knowing how to proceed in her relationship with Norman. “He’s the most unreachable person I know,” she said. “He’s made one promise after another about improving our marriage, but nothing ever comes of it.”
Occasionally, she would receive reassurances from her husband about being cooperative but in reality, he was just saying what was necessary to momentarily get her off his back. He would give one word answers to her questions or perhaps he would not respond at all. He would forget birthdays and anniversaries. “What angers me most,” she said, “is that he did few of these things prior to marriage. Before we got married, he was a near-perfect gentleman, very considerate. He was funny and engaging, and always seemed available. Now, I feel so defrauded,” Nancy said.
Though not completely familiar with the term, Nancy was living with the quintessential passive-aggressive person. This manner of life is typified by emotionally abusive treatment of others through non-cooperation, evasiveness and behaviors that leave others disempowered. The goal of the passive-aggressive is to preserve self’s perceived needs at the other person’s expense. Though they may never say these words, their behavior communicates, “Try as hard as you like, but you will never pin me down. I’m only interested in my agenda.”
Often passive-aggressives can appear pleasant and congenial, but time eventually proves such qualities are a part of a disguise. Beneath the surface are traits that could be changed but are not.Most prominent are: a “quiet” anger, irrational fear and a need for control. Let’s look at each separately. A quiet commitment to anger: Some people falsely assume that anger is only manifested in loud raucous behavior. If you don’t shout or curse or throw things, you probably don’t have anger issues, Right? Anger, is not that one-dimensional. Passive-aggressives experience anger as a means of self-preservation. Instead, they choose to register their anger via non-compliance, hidden rebellion, withdrawal and seeming to act oblivious to everything. This behavior quietly shouts: “You bug me and I’m going to punish you for thinking counter to me.”
Irrational fear: While openness and vulnerability are part of the equation for healthy relations, passive-aggressives consider such traits threatening. “If I fully expose what I feel,” they tell themselves, “you’ll try to invalidate me.” They operate with low confidence that others can be trusted, and they often draw upon past unpleasant experiences that taught them to be guarded toward anyone who thinks differently. Insecurity and defensiveness, then, are primary traits that prompt them to fend off potential rejection.
The need for control: The passive aggressive has become convinced that the way to protect his or her fragile ego is to be in control as fully as possible. Rather than viewing relationships as a dynamic exchange of encouragement and understanding, they think in competitive terms. Who will win here and who will lose? Who is going to dominate and who will be the subordinate? Others are not considered potential partners as much as they are potential adversaries. Minimal exposure, then, becomes a tactic in preserving power.
Nancy asked a question common to someone connected to a passive aggressive. “How in the world can I make him change?” My response was to remind her that it is not her place to change someone, particularly one fiercely committed to passive stubbornness. Any coercive efforts from her would draw her into an emotional tug-of-war, and inevitably the passive aggressive would win.
“Focus instead on three things,” I suggested to Nancy. “First, recognize that your husband’s behavior is not a referendum about your worth. You can’t afford to place your own emotional stability into his or anyone else’s care. Second, in sober moments, speak non-coercively about your goals for the relationship. Make no demands, but let him know that you care about your future together.
You owe it to yourself to be open about your beliefs. Third, live with well-defined personal boundaries. If he chooses to be difficult, you can proceed with assertiveness and consequences. You need not beg for his permission or cooperation to live correctly.” It’s sad when individuals maintain a commitment to hidden rage, yet you need not be so drawn into the undertow that you also become unhealthy. When you choose not to enter into power games, you’ll not have to worry about who is declared the winner or the loser.
Dr. Les Carter, is the chief resident psychotherapist at the Minirth Clinic, Richardson, Texas. He is the author of the new book, “The Anger Trap” (Jossey-Bass, A Wiley Imprint, 2003, $21.95). For more information, visit www.AngerExpert.com or www.josseybass.com.
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I just wrote an entire entry on the passive aggressiveness and its relationship with intentionality and a recent experience but thw whole damn thing (20 minutes worth of work) simply vanished into the nether world - electronically rendered voiceless again!!!!!
Oh PR - again - I am so fascinated by your understanding and process of unraveling the experience. The passive-agressive stuff is like a magnet drawing us in a children and once inculcated it is like having been raised on junk food and as an adult switched to whole foods - near impossible to make the switch, the poison is so much a part of our being.
(tired and frustrated after losing so much work. Just going to reread and come back another day.)
Yet, for the most, none of these things are awful at all. They are normal human emotions. Emotions like anger, disappointment, sorrow. The passive-aggressive, perfect as they are in their own minds, simply do not get angry. They do not yell, nor are they so undignified as to lose their temper. They'll leave that up to you, so that, once again, they can justify that they are the ones in control. While you, on the other hand, are clearly a difficult and hurtful person.
One need write no more to describe in general terms my mother/daughter relationship.
The need for control: The passive aggressive has become convinced that the way to protect his or her fragile ego is to be in control as fully as possible. Rather than viewing relationships as a dynamic exchange of encouragement and understanding, they think in competitive terms. Who will win here and who will lose? Who is going to dominate and who will be the subordinate? Others are not considered potential partners as much as they are potential adversaries. Minimal exposure, then, becomes a tactic in preserving power.
Bingo - this is my mother. I am supposed to go help her today. I cannot. I am so riled up.
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Observe their actions, not their words.
This is the source of so much confusion and frustration for me for so much of my life. Even as a young adult i recognized the complete disconnect for me between words and actions. I always got sucked in by words in spite of the repeated disparity between those words and the actions. Unfortunately this focus and confusion and seeming "naivete" about words was not limited to my parents or family but I this extended out to strangers even and it has been very, very costly to me across the ages.
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Do not enter into a battle with a PA; once you have done so, you have lost the war. The only person you can change in this situation is yourself, so you must approach each potential "battle" by suspending your own beliefs about the way your relationship with this person "should" be. You must accept that it is not going to be the way it "should be." Easy to say, hard to do, but necessary for your own mental health.
My response to this is don't tell me what - tell me how.
This rings so true - it aggitates all of my frustrations and irritations and struggles
Who enboldened the first line PR? Did you do that or the author? I don't even know why I am asking. But it is so true. And it is something that I have done time and time and time again. Daily probably and lost, lost, lost every single time. THAT is the way of my childhood. I never understood how NOT to get into the battle. It seemed (seems) like a battle for life for the very air we need to breathe.
When I was in my early 20s and saw a psychologist for the very first time our whole discussions were about shoulds, I was so tied into knots over shoulds. The guy was nice and I'm sure good by some standards but could he not see how as a young person the only way I could have been so tied in knots was because someone had bound me up? He did nothing to help me honestly but then truly even the couselor I have so loved never really helped me it was always up for me to figure it all up. the most I ever got out of my 1000s of hours was someone on my side and that was something but it wasn't my idea of counseling.
I was supposed to have been taught how to survive and how to understand and solve this issues by those who gave me life and supposedly loved me but those who gave me life never did love me. And they didn't teach me how, not only because they didn't know but more specifically because they didn't want me to flourish, to survive even.
This is so helpful to read but it is also so jarring and irritating and frustrating and ....
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If you can't control your temper, avoid interacting with a PA. Your temper will be interpreted by them as further evidence of your abuse towards them, and further justify their own position as innocent martyr. Under these circumstances, it is better to keep your distance.
This is so helpful. I cannot wait to share this with my little boy about his grandmother. He will completely understand this.
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As I read those articles myself, I thought to myself that maybe you could relate too, GS.
For me, I find that I have adopted a lot of the same behaviors that I condemn in my FOO. They still pop up from time to time. In particular - I have gone to extremes to sabotage and abuse myself - thinking in my 12 yr old brain that since these are the rules where they live... I must live like that too... and being a competitive person - tried to "matter" to them by doing just what they do, in extremes. I had to read for myself that these self-destructive styles of behavior are an extreme form of P-A... to see where the hidden door of freedom from that self-condemning/self-isolating/self-abuse lies.
Kids operate in the world that feeds them; by the rules and values of that world. We don't know any different - until we grow up and experience other people, places and things in life - and STILL we maintain these old ill-fitting "accommodations" to insane FOOs. Me, too. I guess that's why I've always described myself as a "seeker"...
What Ann said over on your thread about inner child work, is important. It's how I got here. Lots of help from my T - and yes, it's vital that we do all the heavy lifting in T by ourselves; that there's no "how-to" guide - because we've been deprived of autonomy, independence, recognition and our Selves. We have been deprived of our unique, individual selves - which is the natural product or result of a "good enough" attachment with a parent, as a child. We each get "there" via our own roundabout way; unique to us. But the most important thing Ann said - is that we need to learn that it's appropriate for us to mourn that natural relationship of "belonging" that we've been deprived of - and also to find healthy ways to nurture other, healthier attachments outside of the FOO.
The mourning process takes a long time. I still mourn - my mother's illness and her refusal to accept what is in her best interests medically - declares to me that I lost her a long time ago and what I think, feel and want simply don't matter in her world. And it spotlights the need for me (for my own sake) to let her go. I kissed and hugged her and told her everything will be OK when I left and I just walked away. I have to, because it's dangerous for me to be involved and get caught up in the dramas - I have a very quick temper and tongue and despite the fact that I was almost too tired to be angry on this trip...
... it wouldn't take much to push those buttons and start up all the old games again, simply by expressing my own feelings. I don't have enough practice yet - to be angry, yet use the right techniques (like hops suggested in the elders thread) of communication to stay unentangled; unenmeshed; ungaslighted...
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She does want to divorce him, Ann... she's said as much for years. But she's walking her own path, like I said. All I told her was, that I would be the one person who understood and didn't think she was horrible if she did.
I FELT.... really strange over the course of those days. I couldn't really name 1 feeling, so I 'spect it was a whole lot of feelings swirling together. But my boundaries held... my anger wasn't ready to explode at the least little offense or annoyance that I knew and expected I'd endure (and for that, I think all the work over the years of trying to understand the dynamics of my FOO and how it's exactly the emotion they hope to elicit - just so they can point fingers at me; blame me... etc... finally helped me get to a place where I knew, through and through - anger wasn't a helpful emotion in this situation).
What I wanted in this situation was to work on communicating with my brother and work on our process of compromise and agreement... and I believed that something as important as our mother's care and well-being would be enough motivation for him to "come to the table and deal fairly". It would've given us a framework for working through business decisions, too. Establish a pattern... a bit of trust... and enable him to be more open with me. The last time he threw a nuclear anger bomb my way... I asked him: what have I ever done to make you not trust me? I had stepped back into my analytical "safe room" and used every tool that I'd ever even heard of for dealing with difficult people... he never ever answered me.
GS -
Who enboldened the first line PR? Did you do that or the author? I don't even know why I am asking. But it is so true. And it is something that I have done time and time and time again. Daily probably and lost, lost, lost every single time. THAT is the way of my childhood. I never understood how NOT to get into the battle. It seemed (seems) like a battle for life for the very air we need to breathe.
Me too. I copied this back, because I don't think I answered too well last time. I bolded the lines - they bounced off me and as I read them, part of my brain was saying "I knew that". Even tho' I know things... I occasionally go ahead and ignore them anyway (the P-A denial of laws of nature applying to them)... to my dismay. I grew up and learned to think just like my codependent P-A mom/bro.... that's a perfect phrase for their "closed system". I was always trying to enter and be part of that system... believing, at some gut level - like you said "the very air we need to breathe" required that I be part of that system. Even at 12, I knew I would be better off as a runaway or an orphan than trying to keep trying to get into that "closed system" that had no room for me - except: I knew I needed money to survive, therefore I needed to finish school. By the time I was that age... I'd already had a couple "substitute mothers"... and the emotional intelligence to know why - even though intellectually I really didn't understand. Then I got separated from my emotional intelligence via trauma... and found myself stuck with mom and bro:
Adopting the same P-A behaviors was camoflauge - I was in enemy territory and in danger of completely losing my self (poor Twiggy) - in order to exist with some peace in their topsy-turvy universe, I had to - at least outwardly - appear to believe and support those beliefs. This is where Stockholm Syndrome comes in... it's like being part of a cult and brainwashed... I've used the word brainwashed since 1969 to describe what happened to me and it's still accurate; I drank the Kool-Aid...
Everyone has learned some P-A behaviors and will pull those out of their bag of coping skills, when there seems to be no other choice for getting through something. But when the P-A is pathological then we start getting into delusional beliefs, the eggshell minefield of hair-trigger, unpredictable anger, all completely tied together with one simple fact: I - as a person with my own feelings, wants, needs and beliefs - do not exist in their closed universe. I am discardable - like a cellophane wrapper; when I have served their purpose - I am discarded.
I ask my SELF: self? WHY in god's name would you want to be part of that universe when the "real world" that everyone else lives in, isn't like that?????
So, GS - I know you're no longer 12; I know you have the skills and the knowledge - and the ability to acquire more of both as needed - to survive and THRIVE without parents. Heck - you're doing an excellent job as a parent yourself!! Why is it so important for you to be part of your mom's weird world? You can still care for and about her - without living in that reality. She's not going to change EVER....
... right after the bolded part is the how-to you need/want: you can change yourself. It is possible to feel angry without showing it, expressing it - and playing right into that trap, setting the hook that keeps one going around & around the same old game. I learned a little of that from a business book on negotiations and compromise. Enough of it, I think, to mix in with this knowledge that I could keep myself "safe" from playing the game... still feel my feelings; know and own them... still trust myself and my own judgement...
I've learned that I simply can't - I don't think it's really possible - to think one's way through to "solving" the puzzle so that you can be YOU and also be accepted and loved by sick people. I've learned that I wasted a lot of time, energy and a lot of my life that could've been spent forming other relationships - totally obsessed with this one relationship and I wasn't taking "no" for an answer no matter how many ways and times they showed me I didn't matter to them; so I remained stuck in that obsession. For me, letting it go... saying "I love you and it'll be OK"... and walking away, was the right thing to do.
it was helpful, as a mirror image, to see my SIL expressing exactly what I've experienced over the years; the same frustration, helplessness, resignition, powerlessness to affect change in the closed system. She exists outside it - except when she is the target of blame and anger. Just like me; just like my Dad. She's a grown up; she'll make her own decisions in her own way, in her own time. I respect that. I didn't try to excuse bro & mom to her... and the only explanations I made, validated what she was saying to me.
I heard real emotional pain in my bro's request for me to travel that far. I do care and I do understand that he completely shuts down and doesn't function in emotional situations. But I'm not so hopeful that he can free himself - ever - from the P-A way of being, even with therapy. So I had boundaries in place - before I even agreed to go - to prevent a whole lot of unspoken expectations of me being dropped on my head.
And yes, I was angry. No denying that - but I was also aware that bro & mom really didn't care that I was angry; and when one doesn't matter - that emotion can (and for me usually does) turn self-destructive. It was the OLD anger I was feeling. Intellectually, I rather expected the outcome that happened - but I'd released that before I got on the plane. So, instead of being self-destructive, this time my anger has been forged into something else... maybe it's self-validation; I don't know for sure.
But - I don't need my mommy in order to be "OK" anymore. My MIL taught me that. And she taught me how to say goodbye with love. I don't know how much of my life I have left to live - nor what shape it'll be - but I'm not wasting anymore time trying to do the impossible. Yes, I also have faint echos of guilt (it's amazing how faint they are now)... of being "bad" by breaking some taboo... yes, I worry that I'm crossing the line from healthy self-interest to N-selfishness... but each of us only gets so many minutes of life and we don't know how many. I have survived - warts & all - and I'm letting go of people who don't want me anyway - no matter what they SAY. Lots of other people do want to be around me, include me, love me...
I am OK; just FINE without my mom and bro's approval or acceptance or acknowledgement of me.
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Why is it so important for you to be part of your mom's weird world?
I think the answer to that question is quite simply - because I have not mourned the loss.
The answer is simple but the doing of it is not.
The doing of it is not a flipping of the switch.
the doing of it seems to have a consciousness of its own. I don't know how to flip that switch.
Even before I read your post this morning I found myself tuning into and understanding just yesterday how imperitive the mourning portion is and I found myself entering it but that pain hit a point that was beyond overwhelming and as suddenly as I found myself immersed in the process I was out of it. And I understood - the pain of it is beyond tolerable. It is unbearable.
The understanding of what is encompassed in "it" (the pain of it) is part of that process. It is a process that I cannot deny that clearly both of my parents and my two brothers have chosen to avoid - and somehow shutting me out of their lives is part of shutting out that pain - not sure how the pain and I are connected for them but only certain that they somehow are. I will go into that mourning process again and again but it does not seem to be accessible at my will. It seems to decide how and when and how long and how deep I can go in. While mourning, greiving are the key the pain of the grief is not only beyond this universe they are lonely and horrific. They are abyssmal.
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Thank you. I do understand your excellent explanation...
and yes, sometimes the mourning process does have a "mind of it's own"... and I would never recommend taking it all on at one time, trying to do it all at once. I didn't do that either... I couldn't and still function in my present life. The other thing, is that you don't HAVE TO do it alone - though you may choose to do a lot of it this way.
In some ways - the years I've spent here on the board could be described as me sharing my mourning/healing process - and also engaging in the healthier relationships I mentioned - comfort offered and received (there are so many giving people here!) - to be able to heal another step along the way. And I've been pretty whiny, bitchy, etc about it... to be perfectly honest. And I haven't been avoided or dismissed or raged at...
... that in itself, is a very deep healing experience.
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I don't know how to flip that switch.
I understand this, ((((((GS)))))))).
I also think anxiety is an enormous impediment to successful grieving.
It's very hard to mourn, which is a deep and poetic healing process, when you're hypervigilant for survival reasons.
Safety first.
I wonder, thinking of safety and experimenting with approaching that switch, whether you've ever explored a co-counseling or re-evaluation counseling class? (It does not involve money.) I am ambivalent, actually oppositional, about some of the theoretic background of this self-help community. But I have an extremely positive memory of the meetings or sessions--I'll tell you why.
When I think of lovely you, and what you have over and over so clearly identified that you need, I do sometimes think of them (several very wonderful folks I know in my church are active and fulfilled RC members, too).
What happens in the sessions is:
--being held
--being heard
--being saturated in an unconditionally loving and tender response
--being touched
--being comforted
You might try it. My advice would be to read the "literature" with one eye shut and one ear plugged. But experience the people and the meetings/sessions with the animal heart open.
It doesn't matter about the wording. There really is something very healing about having someone's arm draped about you, and compassionate eyes fully focused on you, while you let it all out.
xo
Hops
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Hey tt! How are you?
I ran across that list too... and was able to check off each thing as applying. SIGH. [Quintessentially P-A? No, I still like pathological better as the qualifying adjective...]
Ya know, somewhere in this or the other thread... I said that I had some of those P-A traits myself. I think the one in particular that I was thinking of, isn't on this list. It's where a person makes helpful suggestions to the P-A... over & over... trying to come up with acceptable options or solutions or ways forward... and the P-A rejects each and every one; none of them are "just right". I guess it's the underlying idea that one is an exceptional, unusual, special case - there's no way some common ordinary or rational, reasonable solution could fix that. We could call that one, insistantly argumentative. I think I've let go of this for the most part... but I also know it still lurks.
Typically, none of the things on your list really apply to me. People don't describe me like this. However - where things get warped - is that I've been told I was those things... projection. And that makes the last item on your list something to explore...
Thought of Being Oppressed: Passive aggressive people often think that they are not treated fairly. According to them, they are the innocent victims of oppressive treatment. Worst is the case, when they become offensive on seeing that you are upset due to their behavior.
I have also had this one projected on me, over and over as well as used on me. My bro is continuing to do this. The fact that I'm subject to anxiety when the stress of dealing with P-A behavior opens me up to a perceived danger that he is denying.... only feeds into the argument that I'm not being fair, because I will grasp at straws and any possibility at all...
and the reason is, because the P-A bro-mom team have done such a great smear job on my sanity... that I'm not to be believed because I've "always been this way" - i.e., crazy - and therefore my definition of fair is also crazy... and their portrayal of victimhood is so well rehersed... this one ALWAYS gets turned around on me.
So far. It's time for that to change.
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I don't have enough practice yet - to be angry, yet use the right techniques (like hops suggested in the elders thread) of communication
Oh heck, ((((((((PR)))))))))), I don't either.
It's easy for me to write these fantasy monologues...
I know it's a "fer piece" ahead to actually smoothly speak them.
I think you're really looking at, and articulating, a very significant threshold you've already crossed.
Kudos.
xo
Hops
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Hi Hopsy-bunny...
yeah, but you've actually done the training in the communication style (and that's practice)... for me it's more like a rumor that some people can actually talk TO each other without being manipulative, derogative and juvenile and hostile about a conflict. I do have a good business book on negotiation... and it also mentions this style of communication. Hubs and I can do this - but he's special. :D
Obviously, going forward into even more difficult situations with MomBro I'm going to need to expand and update my toolkit of skills. To protect myself, yes... but also to be heard, have my opinion and position recognized, accepted... and have fruitful, effective and efficient discussions on solutions or new ventures, etc. Do I hold out much hope that even this will establish a functional two-way relationship of a business nature? No - not really. So... as in the old Sufi tale: I'm also going to trust in God and tie my camel. In other words, I'm going to explore all the options available to me, if I choose to go completely NC. I can't talk to hubs about this yet - he'll have a panic-attack meltdown about finances. But, we are going through a formal financial planning process and the team of folks have already mentioned to me that a complete break with Bro might be in my best interest. I found it odd confessing that being in business with my bro (after explaining what he did against Drs recommendation) terrified me, to a CPA... LOL!!! But she said they do deal with touchy, sensitive family dynamics and that if I needed to talk anything through I should feel free to call her. I think I'm going to like these people.
What I find absolutely fascinating about my own emotions in this saga... is that - I felt sorry for my brother and agreed to go help out. I got information from nurses and the doctor very easily; they were very helpful (MomBro - they're one two headed entity- are still complaining that no one told them anything or that everyone told them something different; perhaps they didn't understand that options and choices are different things and you're supposed to pick one and decide...). Well, so I helped by convincing mom that she would recover better & faster if she visited a nursing home for a couple of weeks - like the Dr recommended. Bro seemed to concur and even made the arrangements... and I thought I'd done my good deed for the day; there was a reason for me to go the expense of the trip, you know? All I asked was a couple hours of his time to go over some business stuff - and instead he decided to pull his bait & switch on the care she'd receive recovering. So my expense and effort were completely nullified - for nothing, except for the side benefit of hanging out with SIL and comparing notes. What do you do when you're asked to help take care of someone; you do so because you care and then they reject it so blatantly?
I'm irritated about that. Not really angry... and the odd thing is that I feel guilty for not being angry and jumping up and down screaming about the reality-based consequences of MomBro's decision... it's as if I'm self-nominating myself for the job of shaking them out of their delusions (out of habit; my old role...) but I can't quite bring myself to do this ONE MORE TIME...
... as if, accepting that I can do nothing and say nothing that will have an impact or motivate change for either of them... it's as if I just don't care enough anymore to be angry... and some part of me still thinks that's a bad thing; a wrong that I should feel guilty for. But it's always been way - I've always had raging meltdowns to get them to see sense and they've ignored me anyway. A much bigger part of me feels like - why bother? It'll only get me more hooked into the drama if I do that anyway. They already have their blame-target in my SIL... but she's not there. Neither are the children; they've gone to her mom's for Easter and stayed in a hotel last night. I don't know if they'll be back home on Monday or not yet.
Last Monday, while I was travelling, SIL informed bro that she can't do the marriage anymore this way. This has been brewing for more than 2 years. I was unaware that she was serious and at this point, about this. She did say that she'd be very angry if he followed through and brought my mom home to recover. People who emotionally abuse have no idea that their delusion of "control" over others is just that - a delusion. They really do believe they can anger & guilt people into becoming blame-puppets and slaves and don't comprehend that we have free will and choices and the power to make those choices, on our own.
My mother is recovering somewhat; dialysis will probably stop next week. She is still pretty mentally foggy. She doesn't understand the infections she had; doesn't understand that she was probably 24 hrs or less from dying, without medical intervention. And she was left alone, without a cordless phone and no way to call for help, except the upstairs kitchen phone last night, bragging about how she could go up and down stairs, if she just went slow.
I am afraid to go back to my caller ID screening of her calls... in case the one time I don't pick up or listen to voicemail... is the one time she really needs help. Sounds like I'm caught huh?
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I was wondering how your SIL was going to handle BoMom's plan to put SIL in charge of your mother's recovery, without her input, and against the Doc's orders.
Lighter
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PR,
it's as if I'm self-nominating myself for the job of shaking them out of their delusions (out of habit; my old role...) but I can't quite bring myself to do this ONE MORE TIME...
Good decision. Good decision! Keep that veil up. Take care of you.
tt
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I was wondering how your SIL was going to handle BoMom's plan to put SIL in charge of your mother's recovery, without her input, and against the Doc's orders.
(MomBro - they're one two headed entity-
I think the doctor mainly wants the assurance that the patient will receive adequate care and that the patient or responsible party sign off to that effect?
tt
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Hi tt -
There are medicare regulations about how long and under what conditions a patient can remain in the hospital. The doctor can make his recommendations about care after release, and this one was even helpful explaining the reasons for his recommendation - but once the patient is released, his responsibility (and decision-making authority) ends. I continued making his arguments - plus a few of my own; my mom continually blames SIL for the tension and stress she experiences at home and has expressed a wish for years - that she live somewhere else. So I used this little delusion of hers to try to convince her that she'd have more peace & quiet somewhere other than home. I knew my bro would follow her lead - or support whatever passed between them as to her wishes on their closed, little ESP wavelength.
I wasn't surprised when he did just the opposite of what we'd decided, in the hospital. I wasn't even angry. A tad freaked out, maybe, that their joint illnesses have gotten to this level. Afraid of saying or doing anything to represent my own opinion and views; including anger about being kicked aside - completely rejected in my role as daughter/sister; as a rational person willing to negotiate and accommodate others and try to find a win-win solution... this is the old anger of the orginal FOO wounds. Pigs will fly, before anyone in my FOO acknowledges that I have a right to be angry about those wounds.
However, I'm not going to be completely passive in this situation and do nothing. I've already made an incremental move, following up on something business-related that was started a year ago and that bro hasn't made a decision on yet. I am seeking professional advice and considering all my options, while the saga plays out... not being caught up in it, affords me this opportunity to look to my own natural self-interests, because it's clear that those don't even register for MomBro.
Also taking care of myself... finally went & got that massage I've been talking about for a year! Working out in my landscape - planting what I left in hubs' care while I travelled for no reason at all - except perhaps, an expectation on my brother's part, that I'd jump at the chance to interfere, take over, absolving him of responsibility... so I could be at fault & blamed later on. And yeah, you are hearing anger in that... but I finally know what the anger is about:
Mombro are totally immune to anger; especially mine. I feel totally rejected as a sane, rational human being. I know that expressing angry will just get me rediculed and rejected, all the same - and have no effect whatsoever on them. I am angry that I'm being denied my right to be angry, of all things. I feel rendered impotent and voiceless; how I feel doesn't matter to them - I've known that for years. It's a Twiggy temper tantrum, for sure... but so far, she's accepting my explanation that this is what Mombro wants; it's their ego-satisfaction to make me yell and tell them how insane they are so they can laugh at me... and Twiggy knows now, it'll just get her sucked into being involved with them on a level without boundaries again. She's cooperating, so far.
Things between bro & I - businesswise - are fast approaching a stalemate. Even before I travelled, I realized that this isn't going to work; that his P-A and denial of fairness to me is a huge problem (not to mention not even understanding the issues). Others are aware of this, also. I'd already starting seeking my own private advice.... and contemplating putting myself in "Training" - training to be able to do what I need to do to protect myself, take necessary actions in spite of my old PTSD fear & anger, training to be able to have my emotions and remain rationally engaged... and to not let feeling sorry for them, or pity, or even empathy get in the way of taking care of myself... because it simply doesn't register with them that I do care, I'm trying to be fair - the end result is always the same: do something to make me - or SIL - angry, then sit back feel smug and ego-gratification for getting under someone's skin.
People who out & out reject oneself to this extent - and can't be reasoned with - regardless of familial relationship - do they deserve empathy and pity? I would like to think I'm a big enough person to feel this for them; but when I have - it's always been at my own expense. Maybe I'm not that altruistic and enlightened.
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I feel totally rejected as a sane, rational human being. I know that expressing angry will just get me rediculed and rejected, all the same - and have no effect whatsoever on them. I am angry that I'm being denied my right to be angry, of all things. I feel rendered impotent and voiceless; how I feel doesn't matter to them - I've known that for years. It's a Twiggy temper tantrum, for sure... but so far, she's accepting my explanation that this is what Mombro wants; it's their ego-satisfaction to make me yell and tell them how insane they are so they can laugh at me... and Twiggy knows now, it'll just get her sucked into being involved with them on a level without boundaries again.
I relate to this on a deep, deep level. I could write these words up until the last sentence about countless personal experiences. But it is the last sentence that is so remarkable to me. Twiggy's (your) ability to stand on that razor 's edge without falling over is beyond words to me. It is extraordinary. It is superhuman. It really goes to the thing of the arts that is a mythological power to stand apart and not get sucked in, it is part of defeating the wretched creatures encournted on the journey through the forest. Standing in the tension on that edge must not feel so remarkable but looking on from this perspective I see Twiggy standing in the shoes of giants.
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do they deserve empathy and pity?
Everyone deserves those things, whether they want them or not. Think of it as mercy. But:
I would like to think I'm a big enough person to feel this for them; but when I have - it's always been at my own expense.
You can feel those things, but you don't necessarily have to act on them.
When you act, you may put yourself in a situation where you have expectations, involvement, investment (perhaps?). This is what creates expense?
Is it possible to act for what you think of a good outcome to a situation, let the chips fall where they may, without causing you expense?
Maybe I'm not that altruistic and enlightened.
I've given up trying to be good. Content to be human. As for en-lightened, not with my penchant for chocolate...
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PR, I'm hearing you. I think your head is in the right place about each and every scenario. Sometimes when things are complex, it requires us to do one right thing at a time until they add up to one more broken stronghold. Right mindedness provides the foundation for us to do right things. I hear gentleness, grace, and mercy in what you say. At the same time, I hear that these are coming from a well informed, well intentioned heart.
Have tried to write something that's bouncing around in my head several times about what you and SIL can expect from 'the team' not too far down the road. It hasn't completely jelled.
I like your idea of 'taking training' for what lies ahead with bro (and I think you meant about the business).
Ata girl!
tt
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Ah jeez... you all are great!
Guest - I am trying for that win-win outcome; it means I expose myself to all kinds of character assassination. That's OK, under the circumstances. Bro often doesn't recognize what is really is his own self-interest.
GS - I have to disagree with you (unusually) about how my boundaries are superhuman. They are inevitably, all too human. I refuse to be steamrolled yet again, for fear that someone will make baseless accusations about how I'm crazy, or greedy, or "un-natural" simply because I won't just roll over & take any more abuse. I realize there are consequences to this decision, too. I've looked at them; the alternative is that I give myself reason to not trust myself nor my sanity. I am so TIRED of this - done with this strategy - I must needs try something else.
TT - I hope you can figure some way to say - no matter how it comes out - about what you see happening. I need all the help I can get right now. I am trying to not speak or react or even act, out of anger. I feel quite besieged - again - with not that many resources, except you all here. I am still obsessed with "them"... and trying to drive it into my head, convince myself without a shred of doubt - that I am the only one who cares about my own self in this situation. It's rather tiresome. And I'm not seeing that many ways forward - any real progress - and since we're mid-stream in my bro's life drama... since nothing is definite... there's little real action I can take. I'm feeling totally impotent and helpless... except to validate for myself that I'm not being unfair, greedy, selfish or mean. I can't help the feeling of bitterness; knowing how completely I've been rejected. I'm trying very hard not to let it take root. I don't see any point in that. They truly can't help themselves; I know this. I'm just tired beyond patience and reason of always having to be the one who "takes it" and keeps on pretending there's a relationship here.
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I need all the help I can get right now. I am trying to not speak or react or even act, out of anger. I feel quite besieged - again - with not that many resources, except you all here. I am still obsessed with "them"... and trying to drive it into my head, convince myself without a shred of doubt - that I am the only one who cares about my own self in this situation. It's rather tiresome. And I'm not seeing that many ways forward - any real progress - and since we're mid-stream in my bro's life drama... since nothing is definite... there's little real action I can take. I'm feeling totally impotent and helpless... except to validate for myself that I'm not being unfair, greedy, selfish or mean. I can't help the feeling of bitterness; knowing how completely I've been rejected. I'm trying very hard not to let it take root. I don't see any point in that. They truly can't help themselves; I know this. I'm just tired beyond patience and reason of always having to be the one who "takes it" and keeps on pretending there's a relationship here.
Your vision and understanding of the value of not acting out of anger is key here.
I am not writing out of experience or ability. I have not gotten there. These very issues that you delineate in the last couple of posts are such powerful triggers for human beings. It is human nature to feel impotent and helpless, bitter and rejected. But your determination to not let these dark forces take root is your power.
Your struggle here is more with yourself than even with bromom. ( But your ultimate outcome, whether you give into the anger or not, will make a difference in their reaction.) It is a process of the ultimate growth. Whether you master this or not - not letting it take root, not acting or speaking in anger - you are growing and shifting quite simply by the work you are doing here. And I believe but cannot prove, that in the work you are doing, you are also healing. Your awareness of the forces and behaviors at work on the part of your bromom and yourself is one part of that. The work you are doing and your determination to not react in anger is another part of it. (I was reading today in a book by Bikram about his yoga poses in which he writes that doing two sets of his poses accomplished this: 1st set is getting the body and mind familiar with the pose and how your body is responding today, the 2nd set is the opportunity to push forward and grow - not to overdo and get injured but to move forward from the 1st set which gave you information about your body and mind's present ability.) I think you are doing something like what Bikram describes. You have a very good ability to identify the new information from bromom and from your own internal reaction (1st set) and then to see where you want to go in reaction and what it might take to get there (2nd set). You are in your 2nd set. It is painful but it is progress. I am wondering out loud if this process is like yoga in yet another way, it is a lifetime practise with continued benefits. As you make progress you move forward but there is always more progress that can be made.
You are making progress. But this is very, very painful work. The alternative (to stop working) is just worse than the pain experienced by pushing forward.
My heart is with you in this process PR. I hope for you a sense of release and clarity as though a barrier is broken and a new level achieved. That is my heart felt wish for you. And in your progress others might find hope, hope for al of us who feel such bitterness and anger in our rejection and hoplessness.
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Thank you, GS!
It's odd how I can be so strong and forceful and determined - and yet be held back, because I need another person's understanding, encouragement and reassurance - almost, but not quite permission - because of the old ingrained, programmed habit of never, ever validating and standing up for myself. It is getting better, though - this "encounter with the zombies" has really stressed me out and so I revert back into my own old dysfunctional crap.
What you've written is balm; it soothes the worry... and alleviates the necessity of getting it "just right". I can breathe a little freer now - thank you again!
What you've connected to yoga, reminds me that it's probably time to get to the "training" portion of my processing. I can't be the only one who has found some strange mind-body link that impacts healing strategies. I'll start a new thread for that; looking forward to hearing about other's observations & experiences with a physical approach or compliment to healing. Sat - I finally got the massage I've been promising myself for a year... to help detox my muscles. It only helped some. Sunday, I worked most of the day in the hot humid sun in the yard and repeated the process a little less strenously yesterday, cleaning pollen & leaves off the patio. Hubs asked me last night if I was done abusing myself outside - he feels like I haven't come home yet; that's how preoccupied, ruminating & obsessed I've been. Withdrawn and using up physical energy; pushing the physical limits.
Because I don't want to dump out the yuck on him - force him to wade through the insanity with me - and I think I'm a little afraid he'll say something like - why don't you just let it go and move on? Well, he would be right... but I guess the thing I got from this period of ruminating is a new definition of helplessness. Rather than a form of paralysis and misery... (though it's been far from pleasant)... I've come to understand the whole MomBro situation as something I'll never fully understand; I can accept that I am safer, doing, helping, explaining and "fixing" as little as possible and that this equation has always been, and continues to be - the more I do the worse the toxicity for me; and that by shifting my telescope lens from THEM to ME... there are all kinds of things I can do for me and lots of things I have a right to control... taking care of me first - and looking out for my self-interest. Somebody has to.
It's abundantly clear that MomBro doesn't have a clue about me, what I need, and they flat out, write it on a billboard - DON'T CARE. I think I'm over the idea of expecting "family" to instinctively, naturally, see me as a human being with free will and value. Hell, they don't even acknowledge that I care and try to help them!! I had stalled for a week, about even making the trip - my warning signals were blaring - but Bro appealed to my empathy and I finally agreed. He hasn't thanked me nor apologized for not spending any time with me... why should he? he didn't even respond to my last text, about the necessity of a cordless phone for Mom.
In his reality:
I'm the evil one who tried to put my mom in a nursing home. I stepped right into the villain role - as expected & set up by them - once again. And I suspect - he never said it - that really, Bro thought I was just going to come stay indefinitely and care for my mom... even after I sent him my flight details and repeated over & over that I was leaving Monday. Like I don't have a life here... so once again, it's my fault ya know? Because I won't sacrifice my whole life, being and sanity because he won't step up, be an adult and be rationally responsible. I don't think he ever expected that I would really leave - nor SIL, either.
Because MomBro thinks they can control people through emotional head-games and because they are convinced they have this "special power" and deny people the right to choose for themselves... they're always stunned and react as victims of foul treatment & abuse when we do just walk away, sans anger - sans reproach - simply saving ourselves.
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Hey ((((((((PR))))))))))
This is a very, very tough time for you. I don't think there's anything strange at all about how hard and turbulent it is. Because warts and all, you're about to lose your mother. Anticipatory grief. And the grief, also, is for the TRULY unfinished business...in the sense of you grieving the mothering you needed, and though you rationally have known for a long time she isn't capable of giving it, that really doesn't have anything to do with how your grieving self is feeling about the coming finality of that possibility being forever and permanently closed.
I am still obsessed with "them"... there's little real action I can take.
These things jumped out at me as true and helpful and honest. The obsession is a signal for self-care (if you haven't had massages in a while, maybe you need one every other week--I've found it can take several before my body begins to accept healing touch or benefit, but then when it does begin, what a relief). But thinking about them? How could you not. Just notice and expand the moments when you let Amber-life, Hubby-life, ocean-life be present with you, show you its own beauty. It's still there and you are not going to lose what's good, dear.
The little action you can take is right SMACK in the face of your ability to take charge, be competent, analyse, assess, and solve. Control. It is both your talent and your fear-place and in this situation, you can't retreat to it.
Ditto everything GS said, so wisely and kindly. It's not mombro who are hurting you, it's Amber.
Fierceness and anger may help in a rigid way, to keep up the boundaries you need. Another thing to think about is that anger always covers either hurt or fear. Or both.
In a safe place, in safe arms, in a safe setting, maybe those need to come out a little every day. Not WITH mombro, but about them, in a caring and tender space where you, Amber, all of you, are accepted and loved unconditionally. Maybe by that I mean, not alone. Have you checked out a kind T in the area? A grief counselor? (You're still grieving over MIL, you know. And here comes another. This is pretty hard stuff. You are strong as hell, of course, but your psyche is still taking some big blows. Recoverable, learnable, healable. But surely if there was any time for a compassionate listener ftf, to supplement your support, it's now.)
There is NO managing end-of-life issues with an Nparent perfectly.
I also think I heard a chime of guilt, in there. Perhaps your artist side is really the only one who can express your love for your mother now. If the pragmatics are going to be all twisted by their own fears, and you can't do anything about how they interpret things if they're determined to see them "wrong"--you can still put paint to paper, and make cards to mail her that come from the true child heart. Your grief and love can reach her, and leave her knowing more than she knows she knows about you.
And that you would never regret. You'll never know how the sheer magic of opening something someone has made for you with their own hand, affects a heart.
with compassion, with a lot of love,
Hops
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Hopsy,
I apologize for taking so long to reply. A bunch of P-A rejections of your kind, caring advice and excuses why it wouldn't work or apply to me started coming up in my head - and well, I knew you didn't deserve that. I do appreciate what you've suggested and understand the value of it. And a few sessions talking through the issues again - beginning to end - might just speed things along for me. But I also don't want to be sidetracked into looking again at issues that I've spent years on, simply because a new T doesn't have the background info. There's that P-A "but" again... makes me a butthead, I guess. I've gotta start catching that and stopping it - I really don't need to "qualify" what I want, think or feel anymore - do I?
In fact, your advice is probably responsible for the dawning realization I'm getting, that I've tended to punish myself - via the smoking and worse - for the undeniable fact that I do see things - reality - quite differently than MomBro; that I do want things contrary to their comfort zones; that I AM DIFFERENT than they are... and that I'm beginning to see that some of the misery I've suffered all these years is due to the fact that I've always "rolled over", did as they expected of me, and didn't maintain my boundaries and basic rights as a real human being... I've kept the peace in the family, at my own expense and then helped punish myself further for DARING to want something contrary to the status quo.
That's a little different than what the trustee chalked up to "family disagreements", you know? I guess he doesn't want any of this crap, on him... and I did apologize for asking him to once again play go between, with Bro and I on a real estate issue. But who can blame him? I don't want to be in this situation, with this kind of yuck, either. I have simply not been given a choice - and so far, I haven't asked for, insisted on... anything different. That last part is my fault and I can - and am - doing something about it.
I've been looking into exactly what my rights are - and the one thing I knew I wanted and hoped for - is a possibility. It's daring and bold and would be completely unexpected - yet the situation that exists means that I am legally, morally, within my rights to pursue that action. And this action would also amount to a statement and the reality of NC with MomBro (also something I want - no matter what others think of how "sad" that is...). The action is overtly aggressive and I will be painted with a very negative brush - all the things that will trigger a lot of old tapes and taboos. However, it's been pointed out that at present, I am under a hostile attack - no matter, the P-A nature of it... it is still aggression and hostile, and is harming me.
I've kind of decided I need two threads - one for how I'm gonna put together the plan and toolkit to decide what I will do, how I'll commit to that and stay on track, and rock & roll with the unexpected things that come up... and also the pieces that heal. And then this one, I'll keep as a "bucket" for the old stuff that comes up... separating old me/them from now... a place to do the ranting that I know has it's place; the raw observations and acid sarcasm... the letting off emotional steam.
But I'm gonna go back to a Twiggy - me conversation for a while. We make a good team when faced with this kind of stuff. So I'll still be posting some... but I've gotta take the conversation to a level you all don't need to get on you, either!! :D I'm on sort of a tight timeline - I don't have the luxury of making a decision whenever it "feels right" or I get around to it.
Thanks for caring, Hops.
((((((())))))))))))
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You're welcome (((((((Amber)))))))).
I think I understand how you feel derailed by my Desmond Tutu routine at times.
One T said to me years ago, "You are the only expert on you." Applies to us all.
Sounds like you're going to be a warrior, for a while, to get yourself legally free of your brother.
I can sure relate to needing to be untied from the whole massive dragging stinky fishnet of legal entanglements with toxic family. Those rogue nets just drift through oceans, long after their original purpose. It would be so good for you to swim free.
love,
Hops
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Thank'ee Hops.
I'm feeling a bit exposed posting online about all this. Sure you know what I mean. Bro called - unprompted - and he agreed to one of my requests. I am processing. Thinking. Feeling my way through this.
There are a lot of "wrong" things about getting legally untangled with him. Philosophically, morally, "normally" if he were but normal. But on the other hand - what I'm hearing from objective 3rd parties is that I have that right, should I choose to exercise it. I am being validated in believing that I should exercise it. Thanks to my T - and you all - that I've learned how to sit with these things before acting. I remember also, what a respected tai chi teacher told me: just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean you should.
I truly have to beware my own empathy. It's so awful that this is what people will use to seduce you into their sick worlds and manipulate you.. I really have a hard time believing that anyone would stoop so low... even though it's happened to me more than once.
On a way more pleasant note - did you see the royal wedding this morning? I was so happy to see the Queen's happiness (she's been through so much!) and just loved Kate's choice of dress. Exactly perfect... elegant, royal, but simple and strong lines...
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I caught bits of it and enjoyed it despite all my kneejerk objections to class, royalty, aristocracy, etc.
Yup, it was gorgeous.
They seem very sweet, both of them, and I feel sorry for them.
Hellish life, imo.
xo
Hops
PS--I mostly lusted after the bio-fueled Aston Martin! The fuel is made from surplus wine. Probably the only "green" thing happening but it was good to know...I like Prince Charles' passion for the environment and hope the next generation takes it up too.
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Happy Mother's Day you all...
wanted to share some of the results of our convo here and my Twigs & me discussion. You have all significantly contributed to pushing that along! THANK YOU.
Now, if I can just say it "right" so it makes sense. Coherent, you know?
My highest stress levels are almost always due to either a cognitive dissonance experience (like MomBro) or when I'm listening to advice that insists I need to turn off emotion; ignore my intense feelings; and turn myself into a computer-brained automaton... because I mis-interpret what this advice means and simply can't communicate (except with you all) the process I'm going through without taking the risk of being told that what I feel - and therefore "I" - don't matter... thanks to the first item: MomBro.
Got that? This is the starting point. So, Twigs... while we've integrated quite a lot... there is still some break-out separation, at least emotionally. I don't want to own all Twigs' old anger anymore; the opportunity to express that and do something about it is long past. And I sure as hell don't need her angry at me... compulsively seeking out the sabotaging old coping patterns from the past, either. As fierce and angry and strong and furiously fast as Twigs is - she has a marshmallow heart; it's all soft & squishy & gooey & melty. She was humiliated and even punished for being a marshmallow; it's how she gets sucked into the MomBro dance, too. It's because she does really CARE and it's beyond her comprehension that the MomBro DOESN'T... but not being encouraged to care about herself back then - to instead, become roadkill on the relationship highway - and then in classic Pavlovian style, conditioned and programmed to believe that her survival depended on the continuance of this perverse state of affairs; this family dynamic.
<deep breath...>
This past week, while I struggled to make myself wade though pages and pages of complicated business numbers for one last attempt to propose a rational, equitable solution to Bro without my poor head spinning (and still not having much success yet)... before enforcing my rights... it finally got through to my attention, that our old, inherited from D, mommy-queen of the house - kitty needed help. I'd been aware that she was drinking & peeing a lot for a while and not overly neat (as is her habit) in the litter box. And then I heard her claws clicking across the tile - picked her up - and there were concrete hard clumps of kitty litter stuck to all 4 paws. I soaked most of that off in the tub, much to her dismay... sent hubs for old fashioned clay litter to change the box to... opened up some canned food for her... and thought that was that; she'd start getting better. She's at least 18.
She nibbled at food the first day and her paws were still tender, so we figured the sleeping all day was her recovery method. Well, long story short, she's slowly fading out. Yesterday she made the effort to go visit all her other hangouts in the house - even getting up on the bed, which is no small feat. But we only noticed one visit to the water bowl and box area; she's not got control anymore over kidney/bladder... so we've parked her in her kitty bed with fresh catnip toys on the couch. She's always hung out where ever we are. Can barely lift her head today - refused all food yesterday, including fresh chicken, bacon, and even milk - and seems to be aware of where she is, when we pet her. And she's always been a talker... so we get a plaintive moaoow from her. She doesn't seem to be in pain at all - but she sure doesn't feel good!! I'm having a hard time deciding whether to let her slide away from us, at home where she's at least comfy and fawned over... or take her to the vet tomorrow.
At least hubs isn't chiding me for the eye-leakage I'm going through; he's been at the kleenex box himself a few times. And the plain old helpless - out of my control facts of her condition - grief & caring & not being able to help, just takes all the anger out of Twigs. Except she's not letting go of, not letting me ignore, not giving me a pass....... on standing up for myself, taking care of myself, asserting my rights. I've decided to let her make that point and stand her ground, on that.
The new piece in all this... is that Twigs herself is realizing that her time; the time for all that anger is long past. We missed our opportunity. And the current decisions I'm working through have absolutely nothing to do with that; that's all here & now stuff and it's all business - not personal.
Just like you won't catch me in the short-short skirts & 4 inch platform shoes that Twigs favored back then, these days - the part of my identity that includes Twigs' search for justice, constant validation of "see - they are as bad as I said they were"... and trying one last time for a miracle change in MomBro... that part of me, I need to say adieu with. I will forever carry the message of what her anger was all about; I will forever have built-in radar for boundary issues and manipulation and passive-aggressiveness; and Twig's message to me - about standing up for myself; caring about and protecting myself from relational roadkill - is now something that's passed from her to me. She no longer has any reason to vent her anger on me, any more. She knows I care about HER... so we've got each other's back. She can "stand down" in the current business decisions; I've already reassured her about the personal ones.
So... it's time to head on over to the training thread. Twigs always wakes up when the stress level go nuclear; particularly emotional stress. She's really not always angry; but she is a by-god force of nature! LOL... a force to be reckoned with, for me. Dealing with stress; dealing with Twigs... and making it all work together... is what the main goal of the training is all about.
Hops - I know I resisted your advice, and I do apologize. You were spot-on right about the grieving. The existential, experiential way I process things was having a hissy fit over - "I want to do this myself". Its simply not possible for one to it by themselves, really. It takes a lot of outside suggestions, viewpoints, ideas, and patience... to see things differently. And communicating! Once I began communicating with hubs about this - not trying to "protect" him from Twigs and her anger - a lot of the internal steam-pressure started going down. I hadn't said much... because I don't like being told "it's not that bad" (yes, it is)... or being told that my feelings aren't important in a situation (well, yes they are - but "being" the feeling isn't always helpful; that was his point and I wasn't hearing that part of it). I told him, I felt like he didn't believe me... and he's not truly convinced. I can accept that and make one last attempt at reasoning with bro... because I know that if not successful - hubs will be back to back with me, with his sword drawn. Hubs doesn't have to work through all the old FOO & emotional crap, either... no loyalty issues there, for him... and he's very protective of me. He hates it when I shrink down within myself to try to work through - and suffer alone - crap like this. He goes through the helplessness, out of his control grief, too. Because he does care, ya know?
Thank you... to all my adopted moms here!
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((((((((((((PR)))))))))))))
vet
xxoo
Hops
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Hops - our peaceful kitty is now chasing mousies to her heart's content and will get a patch o' catnip planted over her today. She took her time, just falling asleep yesterday; no pain. And her understudy - my parking lot feral baby that I picked up a couple years ago - took the mommy-kitties place last night as "medicinal (comforting) belly kitty". I was willing to forego the vet, as long as she was comfortable and cozy - she always insisted on being somewhere close to us; we were her "retirement home" and was very attached to hubs... the ONLY male she tolerated.
tt- I'll probably go back & forth between the threads... keeping the emotional processing & reflection here... and start getting specific about my plan for my SELf... over on the training thread.
LOOK... I appreciate everyone's concern; I realize the business stuff isn't a DIY project and I don't have the background to "play" at this level without a whole lotta help. I have that whole lotta help. I just don't want to get any more detailed about it on the main board. The last thing I want to have happen is that something inadvertantly signals my intention to my bro... or SIL... or anyone connected.
When all is said & done... at the end of the story; however it turns out... this is still a story that's more about shifting the focus away from them... to me... and crawling out from "under" the old roles, taboos, and stopping the self-sabotage once and for all. About fixing me. Metamorphosis.
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(((((((((((((PR)))))))))))))
Love your can do spirit. You are so capable. :) I need not to be redundant! :lol:
tt
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S'OK, tt...
I really do appreciate everyone's concern and advice and cautions - crowd-sourcing ideas, experience & wisdom makes so much sense to me, as long as individually we still make our own personal choices. Fortunately, I feel a sense of competency in business decisions (but that still doesn't make me an expert) - even though the finer points of finance and taxes and legal matters still confuses me: did "they" who developed those systems realize that the contradictions, exclusions, etc are really really close to gaslighting???? [OK, I just feel that way sometimes. It didn't happen intentionally, on purpose... HEY WAIT... maybe it should have...maybe that's what confuses me]
I don't want to push anyone or their advice - or observations - away. I think on this track - which parallels the training track - I've finally found those "brass tacks" that people claim to be getting down to. The one puzzle piece that's stymied me all along, that I've found pleasant diversions to avoid dealing with; looking at; and DOING something about.
That's my feeling of entitlement to add neglect, physical abuse of my body, and an intense attachment to various forms of escapism on top of the real suffering I go through - whether past or present; mostly past with a lot of ghosts, echos, reflections... whatever you want to call them... reminders... triggers... in the present moment. It seems I have no trouble "claiming" this coping strategy... in fact, it seems to have a life of it's own sometimes. Out of my control - seemingly, but not really. Or else, I may have made the existence of this negative entitlement dependent - contingent - on something that ranks right up on the possibility scale with pigs flying.... i.e., getting my FOO to notice and care enough to even try to listen.
Well, that flopped - I could be 3 sheets to the wind and even driving... and my mom didn't say a word. When she found out I was smoking... the comment was: well, it could be worse. Nope; no matter how self-destructive, self-sabotaging I felt entitled to be... NOTHING got her attention focused on me. And some of the habits were even projected from her to me... but truly, I can't lay the whole sack o' stinkin blame at her feet. Part of me hoped that by externalizing my pain and suffering this way... some nice saintly person would come along and try to help. (The smoke-signal SOS...) And some have... but this craving to self-destroy, while I've got it tamped down pretty good these days... seems insatiable and threatens to erupt like Krackatoa, when I'm being stressed - and can't even take a moment to decide for myself what it is I really want & need. (Maybe I can train myself to take a time out when I need it???)
To paraphrase Larry the Cable Guy: that right there is a boundary issue. It may be the MAIN boundary issue I deal with the most, the most frequently. It's also the message that got lost in voicelessness - when Twigs disappeared - and it needs to be acknowledged; her temper tantrum accepted; and then guided into more positive, self-affirming (instead of denying) channels. It needs parenting, in other words. Guidance, limitations, validation and empowerment etc.
I have been totally mystified about how I can learn so much: about nutrition, tai chi for instance -- and then totally not be able to practice any of it... because my attachment to the old self-abuse strategy only got stronger (and more cruel) and the resistance more subversive and unconscious even - contrarian - almost perceptibly working against me...
... and I'm thinking it's partly displaced anger. Twigs has been blamed for just about everything at one time or another (she feels)... including being a victim herself... blamed and pushed away for having needs; shoved in a drawer and told she'd have to wait till later to be dealt with; helped. She needed a ton o' parenting in that era - and the little she got, she got outside of the FOO; it felt like scrounging for scraps that were someone's extra and thrown away. Feral cat style...
and when she expressed anger at the real source of the lack of parenting - Nmom - she got snuffed out of existence or at least, shoved so far into unconsciousness... that I didn't make sense to myself. I could not explain - and it's still problematic - how & why I do this crap. Anger at mom was simply not allowed; it hurt her; it didn't deserve any attention and I could run in the streets naked and set myself on fire... and no one else would care; would be able to come in and change that.
Anger at mom > turned into being shunned | abandonment | exile | appearance of non-existence through becoming unconscious. In other words, a death. Except for... the unconscious impulses and compulsions... to hurt myself; neglect myself... that is/was the only power she had... like some disembodied spirit operating just below normal perception; a ghost or poltergeist.
And the only person it could impact - was me. With a vengence, I might add. Spite, malice, and dedication. Incredible naivete, given my experiences & education... unbelievable stupidity (it's the only word that fits)... and being completely oblivious to the obvious... those were some of the weapons she used to increase suffering. Not the only ones, either. She made use of her flamboyance, dramatic sense, and high threshold for pain.... LOOK HOW MUCH I SUFFER!!!!
[Jeez. That's embarasssing.]
And she felt completely entitled to this war... wrecking all the attempts at "good" I made in my life... because of the amount of pain and suffering she has endured (until I began talking to, soothing, comforting... etc... her). Yes, it was gawd awful... but by now, she knows she's not going to show up on any list as having suffered the most of anyone, anywhere, any time. She knows it felt that way, because she was truly so alone. And I think she's sorry... I think she's gathering up the cohones to direct her anger out to the source of it, instead of at me... and to let old anger, which isn't ever going to be assuaged at this point - to let it go.
The second part was total, all-consuming fear. Paralyzing fear of experiencing yet again that push of parts of me, into unconsciousness. Of finding out, that yep; mom was right... no one cares... not one single person anywhere... what I do to myself. Especially her. Sorry, she's gotta find a home for that 50 year old Stetson beaver hat... I wouldn't want it, would I? NO; I don't want your f'in hat mom...
I think Twigs understands now, that being denied the emotional boundary of being angry - and angry with good reason; having those reasons denied - that "condition" of existence has changed for me and now, for her also. But justice, recompense, apologies??? She's going to have to let that go, turn her back on that failed quest, and go do something else. The fear - well - OK, I validate for her, that what she's afraid of is real... I'm sorry she had to go through that... but it's just not very likely or probable that it's going to happen again. I am no longer a child... and much as I don't like having to make difficult and emotional choices: I can do it. And in doing so... make things more comfortable for Twigs.
And I can explain to Twigs - that there's a big difference between empathy and throwing herself under a bus, in an attempt to try to force a properly balanced relationship onto someone who is just not interested. That this is purely self-destructive; won't work; silly - no matter how well-intentioned. Twigs is very, very strong - I know she can turn that strength to something that's more nurturing, more positive, more beneficial than this "last resort" she's chosen out of desperation at hoping to be "seen" and "heard" - and cared for. After all - I care.
So maybe the training thread is all about practicing boundaries... and stress management. Knowing what my stressors are and structuring a framework that become a routine; habits that can help me recognize that yep, stress again is happening and I need to feel entitled to positive self-care... instead of the old crap that doesn't work, and just makes things worse. Getting strong enough within the boundaries... having clearly defined ones (in my own mind)... getting the emotional stamina to see difficult things through to conclusion, by restricting - setting limits on those things that are counter-productive - and increasing the positive self-care enough, and practiced daily, until it feels "natural" and a real part of me. Sort of like what should've happened with Twigs during Twig's era (when she was 12-18) - but didn't.