Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sKePTiKal on May 04, 2011, 09:54:04 AM
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OK - I'm starting over. The same premises I started with on the first go-round, but with something else that's absolutely necessary to include. I've had a bit of revelation on my "re-think".
First thing, would be that I've uncovered something that's very like, if not actually, Survivor Guilt. I couldn't quite tie in my surprise at Bro's deception about Mom's care; really I should've expected something like this. The way the deception took my breath away - the blatant disregard for Drs recommendation and my support of that - the clear message (and anger/pain) that I don't matter to them any more than this "new" doctor who saved her life. Cmon, Amber - this has been going on as long as I can remember; it's not a newsflash....
I am not like them. I am different. The three of us are not a "matched set"... and I live in a different world, with different priorities and values and ideas of what is "normal". As an adult, this fits with my understanding of what normal families are - those differences are respected, appreciated, and people are heard and are STILL cared for. However, for a co-dependent, pathologically passive-aggressive duo that doesn't know the meaning of "boundary"... that's simply not "on"; it's not the way it's supposed to be - everyone in the FOO is supposed to be the same kind of person, same understanding of "how the world it"; same reality. It helps support their delusions, I guess.
I can't do that. It's not in my nature; it's not who I am. I am not capable of doing this - despite all my other weaknesses. And that makes me "bad" in the context of my FOO; it's makes me one of "THEM", to MomBro... there is no "US" that I fit into; belong to.
So there's this conflict. We've been talking about conflict in a couple different places lately; all that's been helping me see the next bit - the other thing I have to include in my "training" regimen. I'm calling that "survival instinct", for short right now. The natural self-preservation, self-interest, my boundaries, my rights as a human being. She's a fierce and aggressive and persistant little bugger. And she is infuriated when - due to the old programming; guilt or natural desire to "belong" - I throw myself under the bus again; make myself the fool; the butt of the joke; or even just experiencing guilt & surprise that MomBro is still really sick... even that's enough to invoke the survival instinct. She is angry at ME... for not opening my mouth to give them a piece of my mind... for just "rolling over" and letting them continue to cause me irritation and grief... for not standing up for myself and my rights as a human being.
Herein lies the internal conflict: survivor guilt vs survival instinct. I think dealing with that is step 1 in the training program, ya know? And since there is a real-world threat coming from the general direction of Bro... it would help if I had that survival instinct on my side; it would help even the odds of "me" againist MomBro.
I have plants to get nestled in the ground before it rains. Going to go think without words on this some more.
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Yes, tt - I had to pass through that step - and ask for forgiveness, too.
But, when one feels guilty about saving oneself - preferring to live a healthier life than the FOO - wanting something different, cleaner, healthier... then there is survivor guilt about those "left behind".
Because my survival instinct is so fierce, she's easily painted (especially by the FOO) as greedy, selfish, or even mean... when I don't meet their expectations of throwing myself under the bus for them... for nothing... again... AND
because this is their definition of "loyalty" - that I will throw myself under the bus for them... oops! She's guilty again! And if that doesn't work, they have a whole drawerful of character assassination bombs to throw my way, based on the fact that one time I made this or that mistake.
Ironically: because I am considering going NC and becoming legally UNentangled with Bro by stating, and demanding my rights.... WOW did that really get Survival Instinct in a panic!! She's upset - no, in truth she's scared to death - because I've always been a doormat; given in/up; let things go, to get along... and accepted amazing boundary intrusions and indignities... just to try to meet that impossible to satisfy definition of "loyalty" to my family. It's part of my identity - I am a loyal person. I am a caring person, also. Giving too. Not that I learned any of that in my FOO... or that they think this of me. I still don't matter to them - go figure.
So the old coping strategies that I used to survive in the FOO - are considered too valuable by Survival Instinct; I did survive - PROOF! you know? But the old coping strategies are some of the toxins I've worked so hard to rid myself of... and the only way forward that I can see is to find some way to calm Surv. Instinct... and proceed with asking that my rights be acknowledged and respected.
It's an internal conflict and maybe a double-bind all at the same time. Certainly, I'm damned if I do; damned if I don't. So what do I have to lose?
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I too thought of 'shame' reading you Amber.
Reading you both, this is something I don't feel/think I feel/think.
Perhaps I've not been divorced from my 'inner child'. Perhaps I have always been partly that child and known what I was carrying with me. I think I feel that I didn't abandon myself: in fact I feel as though I fought to remain 'myself' no matter what went on on the outside.
If I had to deal with 'survivor guilt' as well, I don't know how I'd do that (and remain sane).
I don't 'belong' and I don't want to. I'd rather 'belong' here, and that's stretching the idea.
Amber - I'm damned if I do; damned if I don't - really, are you sure?
Loyalty starts with self. Integrity and so on. Sod everything else. Well that's what keeps me together, not some external thing.
Why do you care what they think of you?
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But, when one feels guilty about saving oneself - preferring to live a healthier life than the FOO - wanting something different, cleaner, healthier... then there is survivor guilt about those "left behind".
I know in my case I would be punished or made to pay for "getting the goods" of any sort - complement, attention, acknowledgement, victory .... saving myself - making a living, having a home, providing for my son....
Wondering if you might have been "punished" (rejected, belittled, shamed....) as well.
"double bind & damned if you do/damned if you don't"
I have always used them pretty much interchangably
The bottom line is that mom/bro will "punish" (my word of course) you is you act and if you don't act. It is the quintessential power that passive aggressives use against their victim. It has a paralyzing toxin that allows them to overcome their prey.
Hey Guest - I'm thinking that PR is meaning that she is damned if she does or doesn't according to the MOM/BRO perspective rather than her own but then I am definitely reading from my own experience and perspective on this one.
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Thanks, tt - I know we all have different experiences; and I so value the validation of the common aspects that run through all of them. You've always helped me expand my thinking beyond the personal... to the more objective. That's important to me!! (so, don't stop...OK???)
Guest: my bro & I are 50-50 owners of several businesses; unless we have agreement between the two of us... nothing happens... I make my suggestions/proposals to him; he says no - or says he'll think about it - and MAYBE a year later, I can push him to decide (that's the P-A version of a "no")... and it IS personal; bro has no business experience - so he only sees and understands that it's his idea of "me" - his sister asking... and so I'm effectively held hostage; not able to do what needs to be done (he's totally unengaged with the business tasks and it's a hugely tedious, long, and often unsatisfying effort to get his attention and make him understand what is going on; what the decision is; and what is in his own best interest even... sigh.) Bro does not relate to me with the civility or respect normally shown a business associate; he always takes the conversation to a personal level... and when I don't "bite" and play the game... it's back to his P-A stalling strategy. And it's not just me that's treated this way - it's the CPA, the corp lawyer, and my Dad's estate trustee.
My whole financial existence depends on a person with a loooonnnggg history of this type of emotional abuse, with me as the target. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, when we entered into this arrangement... thinking that in 30-40 years he'd learned some things in life; changed; even maybe figured out what reality is... but I see more evidence to the contrary than evidence in favor of that view. He doesn't know, that he doesn't know - who I am now. I don't know if you were around on the board, when I was telling that part of the story. It was a few years ago.
It really is more, than just caring what he thinks about me. I can let that roll off, with a few deep breaths and a gulp to get rid of the lump in my throat. It is vital - and legally defined - that certain things must happen, for the welfare of the company. It is a fact, that both of our personal financial "well-beings" depends of the well-being of the companies and appropriate decisions made in a timely fashion. Bro has currently put me in a position - through his lack of understanding & engagement & value of the importance of being engaged in business - where my well-being is threatened; I am held hostage through his delays, stalling and refusal to discuss - much less negotiate and compromise. I have been patient; I have explained; I have reasoned in a calm, rational fashion and not gotten personal with him. This is a stalemate; in business terms: a deadlock. And I have legal rights in the this circumstance... which is sort of a extreme, NC version of a "solution".
Of course, GS & all -
of course I was shamed & punished. How dare I even think of myself, my self-interest, taking care of me or even daring to want to accepted, recognized as a person with feelings, thoughts, and perspective that just might be different from theirs? I'm supposed to sacrifice all, to take care of MomBro - no matter how inappropriate, or what it costs me, personally. That kind of boundary never existed for me, in the context of MomBro - with either one. If I DARED to draw those lines, I was the person being unfair; I was the selfish greedy one. I was the crazy, delusional, over-reaching, controlling one. And if I died, in the course of attempting to do that - OH WELL. That's how I much I matter to them. I am a tool - in more ways than one.
So I am "fair" with them - at my own expense; in reality OVER fair... or I feel guilty. Simultaneously, my survival instinct - that protective, fearless warrior self - is telling me I'm an idiot; she's angry because she knows that each instance of being involved with them ends the same way... I get run over. And yeah, she "punishes" and "shames" me, for not standing up for myself and saying in no uncertain terms: ENOUGH of this shit. And then, follow through on what will end this agony & misery once and for all - NC.
That is the double bind; I'm damned if I throw myself in front of the bus - again; my survival instinct has always taken her anger out on me - kicking myself is the least of it. I'm damned if I finally do take the route of protecting myself from these people, once and for all - in all ways. Unless I stop feeling guilty and punishing myself for taking care of myself; protecting myself; surviving. And this is the double-bind that exists within ME... the precarious terms of my own existence with myself.
Guest's pure and simple "me first" way of viewing herself is a goal I have; it's still alien to me - an acquired way of looking at myself. I've had to work really, really hard to even get to the point where I can allow my to have fun, relax, and simply "be". This current "crisis" has set me back, a bit.
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Those are the two ends of the stick; the dilemma. Y'all know I'm a big fan of the "middle way"... through these kinds of things. I'm not entirely sure that there is one this time. Hubs does not believe me about bro and how he is. Hubs thinks he can be made to understand what his role and responsibilities are; be made to decide, compromise and negotiate in a non-personal fashion in a reasonable timeframe. He's welcome to try... and because I value hubs and his take on things, I'm agreeing to participate in this.
I'm also agreeing because I understand the risks of the legal UNentanglement with bro. It is very scary - but perhaps not as scary as I think; I need more information. Hubs' is naturally frightened of those risks as well. He can't imagine a world in which he couldn't talk to and reason with, his sibs; nor where his sibs would be that uncooperative or uncaring. Neither could MIL. So of course, he can't possibly "believe me" -- it's beyond his comprehension that people could be the way MomBro is. He does have a lot of experience with milder versions of some of the same behaviors... so I'm willing to patiently go through the steps of what he's suggesting... and see what happens.
But hey - go figure - he was telling me this morning, that I'm "too emotional"!!!!! For someone who couldn't remember to put "happiness" on a list of positive emotions... I guess that's progress, huh? Maybe he means, I'm too fearful - I have to agree, in that case.
Y'all know I'm a champion of the (maybe naive) idea that it's possible to "train" oneself to deal with Ns - PD others that we encounter in this life. I wasn't exactly thinking my first challenge would be of this magnitude... but what the hell? At least the stakes are high enough - my self-respect, personal comfort zone and financial life - that I might as well dive in.
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Amber
I read you. Nothing is unsolvable. What’s the worst that could happen?
I have been patient; I have explained; I have reasoned in a calm, rational fashion and not gotten personal with him. This is a stalemate; in business terms: a deadlock.
Okay, now is the time not to be the above. Be unreasonable, get personal. How about playing dirty (in business terms)? I don’t know the businesses but there are numerous ways to undermine people or force their hands.
And I have legal rights in the this circumstance... which is sort of a extreme, NC version of a "solution".
Go for your legal rights. Why not? I would. I wouldn’t even communicate directly with the man any more.
Not sure my way is ‘me first’. It’s more: what’s the situation/problem? What are the possible solutions? More like: what’s the reality here? When a lion is about to eat you, you're not worrying about your self-esteem, you know?
As for involving hubs, yeah, why not. If it was me, I’d take the input/advice, but I’d make it starkly plain that the final decisions rest with me alone and hey, don’t take it personally if I ditch your advice. And in your situation, I might consider the time-delay with getting hubs up to speed. Tricky but in life sometimes you gotta let things roll where they may. Including what anyone else thinks of you and your actions. Oh easy to say!!! Listen to me! :roll:
Sounds like a good book TT. Makes me think of every time I consider deleting my account. Oh, what book!
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When a lion is about to eat you, you're not worrying about your self-esteem, you know?
LOL - THANK you, Guest!! I am so hypersensitive to even the shading of implication in hubs' belief that I've over-reacted, jumped to conclusions, or gone straight to the emotional, nuclear red button extreme without trying anything else first - that I would play along with hubs', humor him - only to make sure that he understands I'm not exaggerating Bro; I'm not making this up... in other words, so hubs' believes me.
I haven't grown enough confidence in myself yet, to fight off those kinds of suggestions from people I know, love & respect. Or even to assert my own opinion, in the face of those kinds of judgements. And I also forgot to consider that hubs will bend over backwards to avoid conflict. He is trainable, though - and I'm teaching him that not all expressions of anger & irritation are milestones on the way to divorce. That's been imprinted on his psyche pretty solidly.
Building that confidence in my own judgement; in my own perceptions is part of the training plan. It might be the one of the biggest goals; most important goals. One mistake doesn't a complete failure make. And even weak spots can be compensated for; coped with. I am astounded at how much reassurance and validation I seem to need - it's like a cup with holes in the bottom - to trust my own instincts. I find it incredibly difficult to give myself permission to at least investigate, collect the information and then make a decision about the risk/benefit of what I WANT.
I've mentioned this before; that what I want is total NC - including legally, in the businesses - with MomBro. I don't want to screw bro; I want to be fair - but since he doesn't, can't, won't - engage in the necessary discussions and decisions that have to be made; and now that it's affecting me at a personal level (and hubs is downplaying this threat; because he doesn't know that this particular "lion" will eat me and not think twice or care) and that in turn, ultimately affects the business... it seemed rational to investigate the option of legally disconnecting our business relationship. Two years seems a reasonable amount of time to watch, wait and see if bro is going to "get it" and cooperate, I think. I've even gone out of my way to try to help him understand the situation and have let him know, when his attitude and behavior are unacceptable in a business relationship. I've set boundaries with him, as well. He continues to violate them... and sets his own warped thinking above even expert advice that he's given. Very GC/N - with all the P-A strategies to support it.
The instinctual part of me - the part that loved and learned so much from tai chi push hands - realized that sometimes the best defense is an unexpected offensive move. And that at the moment - what I am considering - would be completely totally unexpected. It's also a HUGE risk... at least, as I see it right now. That risk might not be as big as it feels. I still need more information. And I might not get another better chance, later on.
Actually, I'm quite glad you found what you posted "easy to say".... you've nudged me right back to center and balance again. Back into my feeling of competence, action, and going forward instead of swirling around in the toilet bowl, feeling like crap.
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If hubs doesn't believe me, I reckon it's because he doesn't have all the 'facts' that I have (so I back off, so as not to scare him :D). I understand the cup with the holes in. It takes a long time to slowly repair those holes.
Being fair is important. I wouldn't suggest otherwise. However sometimes the means can be justified by the results when you're dealing with a disordered person (I mean, not being completely honest and open etc). A bit like gathering support before a coup. Two years seems long enough not that I know the situation. Many people wouldn't allow that long. Maybe whatever it is does seem like a huge risk, but is that emotion talking and not facts? Information is a great way to tame emotions I find. And it makes it less personal. I like to think, if this was happening to someone I cared about, what would i want them to do (or do for them if i could)?
Yeah it's all easy to say, not easy to action at all! Eat that poor old elephant...as i joked to myself the other day, don't feel sorry for the elephant, it's only a metaphor...and answered to myself: not to the elephant it's not!
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I think I was questioning my own fairness in this particular "want" based on the values of the MomBro syndicate and the long, long history of anything I want being labelled "unfair" or "bad", you know? In reality, there will be a fair & equitable and legal "trade".
Yes, some distortion of the proportion of the risk is based on wild, speculative fear. It was reassuring to me, that my advisors believe the situation warrants seriously considering this option - as long as I - how did they put it? Oh yes, here it is:
"need to understand the implications for your continued relationship with Bro"
Yeah. Well, that's an easier one. It's not possible to continue what we haven't had for 30-40 years, except in a stage-dressing, imitation way... and before that, the relationship was forced on me and I was more of a mom to him, than my mom was. I've since resigned the job, directly, to my mom. That was satisfying... but I don't think she got my point, that he already HAS a mother and it wasn't my job.
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OK... after my usual song & dance introduction (and I'm coming to believe that this is kinda necessary for me, at this stage)...
Physical training intention: to lose about 20 lbs; whatever feels comfortable after the first 10, to quit smoking, to build stamina, do some strength training and learn to just be IN my body... no matter what.
Mental training intention: to stop with the endless rationalizations about why I am/am not doing x, y or z... I don't need to justify myself - beyond saying "I want". I don't always need to seek permission or approval from others before moving into the "doing". And, when the whiff of drama is in the air... I want to learn to immediately step back and not even be involved in being outraged by the idiocy of it... to either let it go right by me, on it's own momentum... or cut to the heart of the matter, and just SAY IT. (for starters, anyway... I know there's more)
Emotional training intention: to learn to simply notice the emotions I have, breathe through them, use them as a directional guide... and then let them go. It's important for me to practice not becoming an emotion, I think - letting it take me over. At the same time, it's also absolutely important for me to let the emotion flow; to just let it be without tailoring it, adjusting it, always "pretending" to be what I'm not... emotionally... getting myself out of the old habit of being programmed that way -- without scaring the crap out of people. Not so much emotional control... as being able to adjust the intensity of it; the flooding that happens sometimes.
Case in point: recently read a study of the difference in men's and women's crying. There are even chemical differences in the tears. And what's really interesting, is that the expression of "pain" we associate with crying faces... is actually an the effort of the attempt to NOT cry... like steam pressure building up in a pressure cooker or boiler... until.... a "leak" or emotional breaking point is caused and then the tears come streaming out. The authors couldn't conclusively say one way or the other... if one feels better after crying or not. Some participants would say yes - but the effect wears off quickly... some said no... so I suspect there is an internal perception at work... perhaps shame at showing tears... a deflated feeling after the pressure is released... or just a relief and release of tension... and each person "judges" or discerns within themselves whether this is better than the "before" or not... and that's probably linked to the original stimulus and each person's unique connection with it.
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My my. Seems there are a lot of things that get in my way (all self-generated) of just "getting on with it".
Entitlement - absolutely, I've found myself feeling entitled to "abuse" myself via bad habits... either from perceptions of being badly treated by others... or simply from the amount of suffering that I go through (regardless of source). This makes absolutely no sense... except perhaps in context with survivor's guilt... or perhaps, from the idea of competitiveness: Look, mom.... I've suffered way more than you... now, will you care about me? Now, will you drop your silly delusions and come be in the real world??
Back in the twisted, turning paths of sorting out my FOO crap, I coined a phrase "negative attachment"... it's where one deliberately seeks out the awful, bad, and hurtful things because a false expectation or promise; the image of and not the relatity of - a relationship... and it's come up again, in this context of trying to move out from under these lifelong predilections, habits & reflexes and make those changes I want, a reality. Just like I couldn't "stand down" in my war with my mother... until I was able to just let that go (those words simply don't do justice to the amount of & kind of effort involved)... I couldn't start; couldn't begin to assess who I was all by myself...
... just so, I see that this primary relationship with MomBro has colored, polluted, and tainted how I see relationships in general - and how I am in them. Even to the point of my relationship with my Self...
Twigs seems to be clutching on to this idee fixe; obsessed she is; with this one particular means of coping, trying to be seen & heard, and of being "entitled" - owed - justified - in pursuing these means, of getting recognition... belonging... being accepted. Even as, she's now aware that it had/has no impact on MomBro... none whatsoever... and that it's becoming an obstacle in and of itself, of other things she wants.
And - y'all are right about the shame component to all this, too. That's a little harder to "see", except in those funny "embarrassed" moments - like when I freeze up & feel awful stupid & like I "just can't" about swimming a lap or two in the pool; setting myself to excercise 15-20 mins a day... or any other kind of self-care. I feel stupid and embarassed about doing what I know I CAN do; so I don't. I suspect that's because Twigs experienced - not so many big, public, eventful shaming things... but that it was sort of daily dose... the drip-drip-drip... shaming that she took without protest or verbal objection for fear of her mom...
that was revealed when hubs tried to tell me - look, why don't you weed that bed this way? It's a better way to do it. And I finally snapped and said: ya know, you can do it that way, if you like. I'm weeding it, I'll do it the way I want to. And then, I let the irritation and annoyance of having to draw my line in the sand, gooooo.....
There's an essential boundary in there... something Twigs & I weren't allowed - THEN, but that I'm carving out NOW.
Many, many moments like that in the past few days. Like something old & entrenched is coming unmoored and starting to float away... and that's a good thing.
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Overwhelmed - overstressed (to the point that I'm feeling my struggle/pain physically again - overtired - overextended ...
and I just want to be "over it". People around me sick of it, too.
Simple CBT behavioral change not working; seriously intense emotions getting in the way - setting up functional paralysis AGAIN. Trying not to go down that path... it's pointless.
I have written a draft of a proposal for my bro; needs editing - and this morning I woke with numbers and dates in my head and the clear understanding that action must take place quickly. "or else..." Took me two weeks to distill it down to just facts and keep all the emotion out of it (and I couldn't resist making a few pointed personal comments).
A huge sense of the return of the 16-Ton Anvil weighing me down again; embarrassed that I have to lower myself to pointing out obvious facts that bro doesn't even acknowledge... and begging my brother to make a normal, sane business decision - shame that I haven't done a better job of protecting myself from being this kind of hostage to his incompetent disregard for basic business transactions or warding off my current crisis. [reminder: I'm doing this on hubs' recommendation - not because I have any realistic expectation that bro will understand the proposal, much less agree to it.]
And just soooooo tired of it all. I got an email this morning from my old neighbor and he made me laugh out loud; I need to laugh more before I forget what it sounds like and feels like. It's making me wonder what is beyond depression - is it despair? or desperation? Or that sense of shrinking down so small, in the hopes that you'll be invisible and it'll all go away and leave you alone, so you can breathe?
One foot in front of the other... keep going.
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I'm sorry, Amber. What a weight.
Are you wanting him to buy you out of the businesses so you can not have to keep tending them?
Whatever your proposal, I hope he accepts it. And if he will not deal reasonably, I know you are
able to change your mind.
That's what you have to remember...you have the right to change your mind.
Don't you? I hope? I'm not sure what the nature of the partnership is, legally, but surely,
one who wants to not participate any more has the right to extricate herself.
Sending peace, it will be all right. This is unpleasant but it's not war.
love,
Hops
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Thanks Hops... I came back to edit in one more thing:
I can bemoan the "what should be" all I want... but the only thing I can work with, is the "what it is".
And that gets right to the heart of the long-standing issues I've dealt with... and my basic boundary of "self" and my right to want/need and my right to ask to have those wants/needs met. Should this proposal be ignored or refused - or even negotiated down to an inadequate solution...
... then, I'm afraid it is war. Not the hand to hand, face to face kind; it will be as civil as I can make it... but I WILL do what I need to do, to survive and defend myself, even from denial, ignorance, and plain old meanness and not caring - no matter who my opponent is. I really can't post any details of what I know I can do - legally, safely, and within my rights. Fairly. But this current proposal is his last chance before I begin invoking the next level. And if that is where we go... I'm going to have to release the outcome and simply hope for the best.
What you said awhile back... was what was necessary for me. I had to grieve for the absence all along... for the family and those relationships I didn't have. I am still sliding into that quite a bit. And the anger is still there, too. It's a primal, survival kind of anger... not just a whiny, I'll have my way or make everyone miserable kind of thing. I have a right to survive without grovelling and being restricted by MomBro. I have a right to be different from them. And I remembered something...
... involving L & R brain... and an idea I had the last time I saw my T... "systems" and structured frameworks for making changes have a tendency to backfire with me; like all the CBT techniques for quitting smoking or how some drugs have a completely opposite effect on me than in other people... my training needs to be way more organic, emotional, intuitive - nurturing even - than some kind of intellectual boot-camp. I'm at my best, flying by the seat of my pants and making it up as I go along. No idea why or where that came from... but I thrive here better than a lot of people (and scare a lot people when I'm in that place, too).
Right now, I'm hanging on to MIL saying: I just don't understand how people can be like that. It helps me breathe and gather myself together, and move forward.
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So... the whole idea for this new approach that I would like to finally get off the ground and stop talking about... and doing it instead... came from something I wrote about the psychological benefits - mental & emotional - of tai chi. I finally got to see it in print, so here it is:
What's known as the "monkey mind" gets out of balance in people and this results in increasing levels of mental, emotional, and even physical stress. One acts and feels besieged under this kind of inner pressure. Learning the 103 forms, internalizing the sequence, and using the attention to focus on achieving the standard in each form while developing the slow, smooth, large forms inherent in Yang Style keeps one's "monkey mind" busy enough. It resets the mind's proper relation to the whole person, creating an opportunity for the person to experience relief and relaxation from the constant chattering - some of which is likely self-critical and contains unrealistic expectations of oneself, or worse.
When the experience of this kind of relaxation begins to accumulate and become familiar to the person, there is a kind of confidence that develops and begins to grow, which further deepens the feeling and experience of "song" (relaxation). Enough of that experience can alter one's perception of oneself and how one feels they are connected to other people and the overall sense of well-being pervading one's daily life, in body, mind and spirit. That was the positive inner benefit that I discovered in the regular practice of tai chi! It's like preventative medicine for the mind and spirit, as well as exercise for the body, building up immunity to to stress and inner ailments.
Then, the article goes on to document clinical studies that have been done that support what I wrote. I just contributed these few paragraphs of anecdotal experience to the author. Once written, the words and their meaning - the knowledge - just slipped right out of my mind...forgotten in the to-do lists, the feeling of being pulled in 15 different directions simultaneously... the panic, the crises, because I haven't confronted my brother sooner on business issues (hubs keeps cautioning me about confrontations - but it has to be done - it's not a right/wrong conflict)... and so I tried to get back to what I knew I had written; needed to in fact...
and now that I see it (only lightly edited)... I wonder who that wise person was and where did she go? WHY did she go?
And gee: I really need my own prescription for my currently over-stressed and over-whelmed existence... especially as the physical expression of my feelings are acting up again. It worked before - and quite well. What I wrote was my experience; how I felt and what I noticed was different about me, while I maintained a semblance of regular practice.
The only real obstacle in my way - is a feeling. I feel stupid, embarrassed, rediculous when I attempt to practice, now. Something is welling up inside wailing "I can't"... "I'll do it wrong"... and sometimes even - "someone will make fun of me". I used to help teach beginners, in class with my teachers. I was seriously interested in becoming a certified teacher, within the Yang Family society. I have been on stage performing with my classmates to a full house - including visiting masters.
I even feel this way, wearing some really pretty fun chinese style clothes... I feel like a fraud; an imposter; a wannabe - again.
And I know my teacher would tell me to stop thinking about how it feels - just try this one move; and my T (who has studied tai chi a long time, also) would ask me how I feel about the feelings that come up. Where I think they're coming from... and why. But the thing is, that while this feeling stops me in my tracks - and is OLD in origin - the reason I'm feeling it now, is directly attributable to myself. I stopped practicing... thinking I didn't need to do this anymore (a bit of egoism there, perhaps)... that I'd assimilated the knowledge... and besides, I was bored with it. I wanted to do some new things; have new experiences.
So, I was wrong. Even my own words explain how the regular practice is "preventative medicine"... words I conveniently forgot. And the meaning of the words, is simple - some things have to be a life-long practice: like self-care... it needs to be a regular thing like brushing your teeth... whether it's boring or not - because the effects of the practice simply do not exist without the effort, the repetition... well-being can't be established simply by being and breathing... or a life-long dependency on some pill. It's not just first-aid for an injury.
Yes, that lesson was something I should've learned via a parent who kindly insisted and imposed this kind of self-care learning on me. But of course, I didn't have that kind of parent. It's the repetition, regularity, the on-going application of self-care that's important... not just keeping it back - one's secret weapon - for a first-aid application. It's such a SIMPLE thing... to put into words... absolutely way more difficult to put into practice. As if something sabotages making self-care a routine...
Maybe it was the idea that, OH... I know how to do this now and it doesn't matter if I do it today. (the "doesn't matter" strikes again)
Maybe there was the idea and simple hope that - while coming out of the FOO-fog - that gee, someday I'd get to the end of therapy (I did), and that I'd be "all better"... and my life would make sense... and everyone lives happily ever after... and no more effort was required; I was "fixed". So, I'd achieved my individual level of expertise in tai chi where I was sure and fairly well accomplished (but there is always a higher level of skill)... and even tho' I heard my own thoughts warning about how body memory does fade... how the sequence of postures can instantly escape even masters... and that without practice of SOME kind; SOME amount... it was unrealistic to believe that the benefits would remain a reality for me...
Even so, my "decider" decided that "it didn't matter"... I was "fixed" now... I could be a slug and pick it up again later - and maybe the shame feelings would go away or decrease enough for me to get back into a routine... if I just didn't force the issue. A year later - it still hasn't happened.
I'm starting to wonder just who this "decider" is... is it me or Twigs or some conflated jumble of cliches, old wives tales, and the well-meaning attempts of various people all rolled into some kind of collective reason brain... and I'm wondering if maybe I need to jump into the driver's seat and take control of the wheel... in a parental sort of way instead of trying to rely on this committee of ideas and parts of myself, to "decide" things.
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Laughing buddha says?
(Spelling Nazi says...?) *sigh*
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OK, maybe my title as the Queen of Cryptic is a little shaky! LOL...
say what, Guest? Come again? Can you elaborate?
Thx.
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Amber :)
laughing buddha smiles on our confusions and predicaments. How rediculous we must seem.
Even in the worst of times, with my heart beating twice the normal rate and all my senses telling me that danger is afoot:
I'm still here. It hasn't happened yet!
What's the worst that could happen? - works, sometimes, for me.
When all my frustration (with myself and/or others) starts to build, I can find a way out.
All things get dealt with in the end. What we do in the meantime is....what laughing buddha laughs at.
I find that helps me. :)
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Guest - if Buddha is still laughing (stone cold dead), it can't be all that bad, eh?
tt
PS PR, I'm not laughing at what you're having to deal with. I'm just 'laughing' at the deceased laughing Buddha!
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Thanks Guest! and tt - go on and laugh...
I can tell the difference between "laughing buddha" and someone making fun of me (well, I think I can...!) And yes, I think I can relish the idea of buddha laughing his fat belly off at me, flailing around like I am. I don't take myself THAT seriously...
... but I do forget sometimes, that while I'm in the midst of trials & tribulations & agony... that I got here from a beginning point of the "story" and that the end of the story is waaaaaaaayyyyyy out there yet and can only be reached by taking the next step, reading the next word, continuing on. Too often I LET MYSELF feel like a soul condemned to an eternity in purgatory, which is not reality, now is it? Maybe that purgatory is sticky tar-like fear of doing something wrong... going "too far" (wherever that is)... being "too extreme" in my decisions. That's one of those things I've always been told about myself - thanks mombro - that just haven't been validated in reality.
[Guest: this morning I'm hearing loud & clear what you've said about changing one's mind and what's the worst that could happen... and I'm also remembering the great remark about not worrying about self-esteem when a lion's going to eat you... and I think you're my new zen master.... I "get" the answer to the koan...
and I can tell myself: RUN FOOL... knowing full well that my personal "history" doesn't have to repeat itself; that the current FOO-Follies will end differently and I don't really control that; that it's not my turn to suffer a repeat of what happened back then. OH - and I've already done purgatory; over it. And for that matter - Twigs can change her mind, too - about how she copes with FOO-follies and reminders of that kind of stuff. Duh. She's allowed, you know???
I've reached the point lately, where if I'm not "doing", there's no where else to be, except laughing (or sleeping) - altho the oddest things make me laugh right now. It's like having a split personality.... there's all the heavy, important stuff on the one hand that requires careful serious thought - and I still feel like some little kid making smart-ass remarks and silly faces in class - just to relieve the tension.
Like: I mentioned the importance of food and rest - self-care - to one of my Ds who is working long hours 7 days a week & playing softball the other day... how crabby we get if we don't take care of ourselves... and she came back with a text saying that yeah, this morning she ate the neighbor's dog!
oooo-kkkkkkk..... hahahahaha!
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Nooooooooo Amber, you just killed me, again! :lol:
(TT did you do it to the buddha? Where did you meet him?)
Is everything allowed? Wow. Just for us, wouldn't that be 'wow'? I'm going to act 'as if' on that basis....it won't be easy. :?
Amber I'm fiddling with the word FOOL and trying to play with the FOO inside.
(I love those smart-ass kids!)
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Fiddle away - I didn't catch that!
"Is everything allowed?" I don't know the answer to that one.
Acceptance of the consequences of those kinds of choices - even the unexpected; unpredictable consequences - well, that's kinda built into thinking everything is allowed right? No matter what it is. Whether you saw it coming or not. Positive or Negative. Something that hurts someone else... is that allowed? Under what circumstances? Like fighting back in self-defense?? When one's well-being and survival are at stake, for instance?
But part of me shrinks back from the "everything allowed" idea. It seems to be an easy slippery slide right into N-egoism... where other people and their feelings don't matter at all. Maybe it's the old B&W fundamentalist Christian training, too - where there exists absolute right and wrong in all things... and which doesn't hold up in my observations of life, but part of me won't completely "let go" of that page in my mental encyclopedia of accumulated information as being at least, plausible. Even against the mass of evidence I have that accumulated that all ethics and morality is dependent on situational circumstances and details and criteria and personalities; no matter what people profess. Present moment morality, I guess it is.
And part of me also feels that "everything allowed" is tempting fate; daring the devil; spitting in the face of the universe... and that the karmic wheel will come back around and paybacks, truly will be hell....
and even after saying all that - I still don't know the answer to the question.
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Agreed Amber. I did mean just for 'us', just as an idea, just for a few moments of hedonism...but my mind too says...not really. It's not good for a brain after all. Power corrupts etc.
So....how about....
many many things are 'allowed'?
And we haven't even mentioned the idea of what 'allowed' means. Aloud.
hmm. "In my foo-lishness, I was never aloud."
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TT did you do it to the buddha? Where did you meet him?
I'm afraid to answer that, Guest! Do what? :?
Haven't met him. He's a little old for even me and dead to boot! I think I'm missing (not Buddha) something!
tt
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Amber, a tangent.
I started The Glass Bead Game. Hard work (page 37).
The frustration of feeling (and being) ignorant. Classical music? I have no idea. I feel I should have a little idea. But I have none. I don't know what's being talked about. Different worlds.
A bit like the word 'literature'. What is 'literature'? Even worse, what is serious literature? Is it very serious?!
These are things that create barriers that don't exist. Words like 'literature' create a world for those who know and those who don't can....read magazines (although some who read popular novels by 'serious' writers think they are reading 'literature' and I wonder who is the bigger fool). Does it matter? Well, yes. You can't build a spacestation on muddled maths and you can't think critically on....oh....you choose. The Secret! Or er..the chap..Tolle. Well you can, but it doesn't help if you can't be critical. :D (Who says?)
But, nevertheless, interesting idea of his that when he was writing the book, he was being critical of common 'culture' and writing of new dawn of the mind - what would he have thought if he'd lived much longer? If he'd seen common culture today?
It bugs me when I feel ignorant, because some knowledge is expected of a reader. But then I'm ignorant of so much, thankfully. References to classical music aren't the only things that stop me in my tracks. Any history before about 1914 and outside Europe is outside my learning. Well, human comings and goings that is (which is very little history really). What does a mountain make of our history?
And I keep thinking to myself, what did Alice Miller say (what's the real story here?). And do I have the inclination (the language is .....difficult).
PS. karma doesn't exist. Now watch it come and bite my ass.
PPS.
TT
KILL HIM, of course! (on tha path) 8)
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Oh...
I shot the sherriff (it was self defense), but I didn't shoot no Buddha!
tt
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Aww. :D
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The frustration of feeling (and being) ignorant. Classical music? I have no idea. I feel I should have a little idea. But I have none. I don't know what's being talked about. Different worlds.
A bit like the word 'literature'. What is 'literature'? Even worse, what is serious literature? Is it very serious?!
These are things that create barriers that don't exist. Words like 'literature' create a world for those who know and those who don't can....read magazines (although some who read popular novels by 'serious' writers think they are reading 'literature' and I wonder who is the bigger fool). Does it matter? Well, yes. You can't build a spacestation on muddled maths and you can't think critically on....oh....you choose. The Secret! Or er..the chap..Tolle. Well you can, but it doesn't help if you can't be critical. (Who says?)
But, nevertheless, interesting idea of his that when he was writing the book, he was being critical of common 'culture' and writing of new dawn of the mind - what would he have thought if he'd lived much longer? If he'd seen common culture today?
It bugs me when I feel ignorant, because some knowledge is expected of a reader. But then I'm ignorant of so much, thankfully. References to classical music aren't the only things that stop me in my tracks. Any history before about 1914 and outside Europe is outside my learning. Well, human comings and goings that is (which is very little history really). What does a mountain make of our history?
And I keep thinking to myself, what did Alice Miller say (what's the real story here?). And do I have the inclination (the language is .....difficult).
PS. karma doesn't exist. Now watch it come and bite my ass.
Guest,
I think the secret to reading, and listening and enjoying the ideas of others is that going in, one benefits from having the confidence that their own opinion, perspective, etc., has value. When I was young, I viewed everything written in books to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I remember so well the first time I came across something an author (I don't remember who) said that was so rediculous I said out loud, "That's not true." I don't think I have a jaundiced eye as a result. What came of it was that from then on, the things written in books was filtered through my perspective too. They are only expressing their opinion. Well I have one too! One of the nice things about reading what others say is that often when you combine what they say with what you think it can be a moment to embrace or discard from either or both perspectives. There you go. I put in my two cents.
Oh and BTW, factor in that authors like to fluff and puff just like the rest of us :lol:!
tt
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Thanks TT.
The thing is..... :D....when I intend to do something, I want to do it properly and to my satisfaction. My standards for myself are still reasonably high (unfortunately). I have started a few books and stopped a little way in...and I don't like doing that (maybe I should've persevered? How can 2 million avid readers be so wrong...? :lol:). *sigh*
I don't know what 'counterpoint' is. I couldn't tell Bach from ... well, I don't know. And so I think: "whoah! I need to educate myself before I read any more of this book because I'm going to miss so much that it's not worth me reading without that education because I just won't undertstand it and that would be such a waste!".
Is it possible that Hesse was trying to impress with his book, trying to gain approval from some unseen higher authorities, to get the recognition he wanted? Or am I projecting? :lol: Presumably that's why authors do use fancy concepts and convoluted language? Because they feel it's too common or inferior to speak plainly and simply. Or perhaps because their heads are arranged in a such way that to speak simply and plainly is very very difficult for them. :?
If I don't need a double maths/music degree to read this book, I'll do it. But I have an uneasy feeling about it and even with a book, that sometimes means something.
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Hi Guest,
Well, I wouldn't worry too much about the properly part. What if you just happen to be reading the 'improper' works of a preening or half informed author (I don't have a particular author in mind, btw), then what?
Classical music is my absolute favorite. I listen to it a lot. BUT most of the time, I can't name the composer. I don't know if it is an opus, or a funeral march. Sometimes I can't even identify certain instruments. I might enjoy knowing all those things, but I don't. I like the way it sounds. That's sufficient.
Hesse - Of his, I only read Siddhartha. For the life of me, I can't think of a single thing I took from it that would qualify as a good tool for life. But that's me. We're all different, eh?
tt
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OH Guest!! Despite lacking the "knowledge" to understand the classical music references... I think you might've gotten to the gist of the book MUCH more quickly than I did!! LOL...
I approached the book with the idea that I'd learn some universal truth from it... and so I slogged through each word, pushing & pulling with the words... looking for that emotional narrative "hook" that my intuition could connect to in the story... and I had mega-trouble with that! I think Hesse meant the book to be difficult; that he was hoping to simultaneously to poke fun at the illustrious German philosophers (and other nationalities)... and yet gain some validation for himself, via this complex metaphorical, allegorical story. This is absolutely dead-on correct:
Is it possible that Hesse was trying to impress with his book, trying to gain approval from some unseen higher authorities, to get the recognition he wanted?
That said, all these years later The Glass Bead Game still stands for me as an example of how someone can create - in living color & detail - an alternative reality that they completely believe in, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. And create their own problems, within that you know...
the one thing I don't know but that would be interesting to know... is whether Hesse knew either Jung or Freud (or neither)... and how he came to be so exalted among the 60-70s literati who were also absorbing as "authoritative" the mental ramblings of Ken Kesey, Richard Alpert and Abbie Hoffman.
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Interesting Amber, thanks (and thanks TT). Good distractions, all. :D
Creating alternative realities - I read 'Dune' (probably because I was stuck in a situation that confined me, so I managed a very thick, long book!) and enjoyed the desert planet, became aware of water in a way I hadn't imagined.
I will have a go with TGBG, lightly. I haven't read any other Hesse. I do know Alice Miller talked about him somewhere. Probably he was in the right place/right time in the late 50s, having 'done' the Indian trek etc. I mean, John Lennon and Yoko talked a load of baloney sometimes. As we all do!
I think i think about the author's intentions/motivations/thinking a bit too much sometimes (a bit like watching how a film is being made rather than watching the film? no, not quite, but similar) so in some ways a bit of real fluff with bite (Weldon, some Atwood) is easier.
Have you seen what people (presumably guys!!!) have done with TGBG on the web?
People enjoy secrets and inner circles and games and codes and stuff.
(Mostly that type of thing has driven me COMPLETELY NUTS in the past with frustration, irritation and boredom, but hey, that's why I like laughing buddhas! If I can laugh at every emotion/feeling, that's good enough for me.)
I'm not looking for life tools in books now; I'd like entertaining but.....one person's idea of entertainment isn't another's.
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I've had a particulaly overwhelming week or two. I've felt completely paralyzed and at the mercy of my own anxious, overactive mind. Brittle, fragile, unable to communicate well... again. Unable to ask for what I need - coz I have no idea what that is.
It's as if I'm going through the whole FOO experience again - only backwards, up through Alice in Wonderland's rabbit hole and what was shattered into separate pieces the first time... is coming together again - hopefully not mutated!!
I was a bit premature, therefore, in starting this thread I think. The how-tos... how does one describe what is happening, what one does and chooses at the sub and unconscious levels? That's the stuff of dreams and visions... glimpses of the collective state of humanity perhaps. I even mixed up intention and goals... what I previously labelled intentions are goals; intentions would be the how-tos necessary to reach those goals.
Just before the weekend, it felt as though all the circumstances that are the concrete facts of my life were starting to unravel, shatter, get blown away... I even tried to make myself sick - that used to the be only time I got attention from my mom - an unspoken asking for what I needed. Uncharacteristically - I've procrastinated on some work; phone calls and emails. Usually I'm the total opposite - people get what they need from me, immediately because I've anticipated the request. I've started sleeping poorly again... and am not able to eat, because of the tension; everything gives me heartburn.
But what I think I need - only I can give myself. I'm still looking at that.
I realized that the plan I was offered as a means to free myself from my bro only offers that freedom. Nothing else, except perhaps more financial risk. I think I'm going to continue to gather information, facts, figures... and then reassess the cost/benefit again. I'm dragging my feet; stalling; I feel as if there is yet another shoe to drop somewhere... I just don't see it yet. So I feel I have to continue to prepare; be ready... oh yeah... I'm so good at hypervigilance and waiting on pins and needles ready to over-react with all that pent up energy! LOL...
I really DO NOT recommend being in business with FOO members!! Or thinking that one is healed enough to walk into - and unscathed out again - of their games. Don't try this at home! you know? One definitely pays a price... I'm just determined though, that this time, I'll also gain something - even if it's just being able to trust and believe in myself again.
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I call mine a nervous breakdown. Or break-up. Sometimes I think to myself it was 'going mad' to become sane (saner).
Re-viewing is probably necessary before the next steps (shame that businesses often don't take any time to learn from reviewing).
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Thanks... but I really can't subscribe to the nervous breakdown description. Despite everything, I still functioned you know? Like a zombie, robot or a cranky, over-tired baby that just needed fed and put down for a nap despite not wanting to... but I still functioned.
I do like that quote from Aristotle, tho - it reminds me of my tag line, a quote from the poet Rothke "I know by going where it is I have to go".
I think the convo Ann, Penny & I were having over on Penny's thread is closer to actuality of what my experience was like... about self-doubt. That may very well be something I struggle with, for the rest of my life. Another term for it, might also be "soul searching"; digging down deep and then going deeper to find something unshakeably firm, reliable, and concrete to hang on to for dear life... by my fingernails, if need be.
Here's what I've come back with:
In one way, at least - Marshall McCluhan missed how TV is like life. The audience is insatiably hungry for "new"... new shows, new formats, new people/actors. Yet each of us has our own "old favorites" - shows that helped support the illusion that life is predictable, stable, comfortable and safe. Without risk. Watching M*A*S*H, you know Hawkeye & his buddies are going to be up to hilarious - and mostly harmless - mischievious fun. And still be able to save lives, when the wounded arive. It was a harmless illusion; one we knew the "trick" inherent in it... it was restful; comforting.
My MomBro FOO, never watch new shows. Their life is completely and totally a re-run in the present day, of the factual circumstances of the trauma that bro & I lived through back in the late 60's. The trauma that didn't have to happen that way... my mom "created" it via her illness... and then blamed first my dad, then me for the problems and trouble. She's still playing the same old script - only this time, the bad-guy is my SIL - who thankfully, is able to resist and ward off being part of the game. Bro is her hapless sidekick this time; not me. He doesn't want to be rescued, shown "reality"; he won't wake up until he wants to.... or he hurts badly enough and doesn't know why.
My close encounter with that weird, alien "reality" was highly dangerous for me, though I thought "OK, I'm healed... know what to watch for... won't get played for a fool... won't get sucked in, this time". I should've listened to my own intuition and not gone; played the whole thing from a distance... but bro played the ace card; he played on my empathy and I truly felt sorry for him and wanted to help. I took as many precautions as I thought would be necessary, to protect myself. And it wasn't enough. I was still wounded by the futility of thinking I was being allowed a chance to make a difference; to do something caring and useful. They still laughed and refused to acknowledge reality; facts. And I still didn't matter at all - to either of them.
Coming back out the other side, I realize that for the new skills I have... all the practice of boundaries, and communication and finding my genuine, 100% authenticated voice... even though they certainly HELPED a great deal... for all those new skills, I could still be emotionally wounded. Yep; still mortal and sentient... still too trusting of the people who've hurt me; still trying to shine sh&t; to find reasons, excuses, ways to take on the responsibility of "them" and all that entails...... again. Ways to take the blame on myself and paint myself as an evil, selfish person... because of wanting to protect myself better than before... to STOP the madness.
And that would involve resigning myself to reliving reruns of the same old script............. again. I tune out of re-runs; can't hardly watch most movies a second time - even if it's been years since I first saw it, because I remember scenery, scenes, dialogue and plot. I would "tune out" of my own life - my own inner life - if resigned myself to the same old script. It was getting close; I read 4 books - including the whole tome of the "Land of Painted Caves". I would, mind you - still function well - but would no longer be "involved" or care about outcomes of the major things on my current to-do list. And I'd resent all of it and not enjoy a thing... almost all Lbrain process; no Rbrain well-being... no real connecting with anyone in 3-D, either.
Only I can break the old script; I'm the only one who knows it exists! But here's the thing... maybe I just don't care anymore. That caring about making a difference for them, ONLY gets me hurt again. I can't trust either of them. They don't care about me, no matter WHAT I say or DO. Caring is a choice; it's not a given - it's not 100% nature or DNA; a good bit of what we choose to care about comes from education, environment, learned values. My environment turned out to be way different - a whole different universe - than MomBro's. Don't know why; it just is. Why doesn't matter. And we can choose to not care (both have a price, I think.)
Perhaps they need their script. Perhaps they'd have nervous breakdowns or commit suicide or kill each other without it. They can keep it, if they want it. I'm over it. The path of action I'm looking for considers the script completely irrelevant; it's something (as the Python says) "completely different". Like taking care of ME, as much as possible; engaging only when necessary with MomBro - keeping my distance. I don't think they're going to be able to get SIL to play, either.
I just have to convince myself once and for all - that I'm not the controlling, selfish, manipulative, power-hungry egofreak - in the script, though I have worn all those signs and tattoos and marks labels at one time or another in the original screenplay of the script (by believing the projections & gaslighting) and bro keeps trying to insert them again because he still believes the projections and gaslighting - all because I ask for what I want, say when I need an answer, and expect at least the civility and basic human respect of being treated as an adult and not being deceived or denigrated or cheated or lied to or left waiting - suspended in limbo, dangling over a precipice - for his highness to respond.
No one else has ever told me I was those things; not even my ex's. And the first time thru the script, my mom-substitute neighbor tried to convince me it wasn't my fault, but she had no idea how deep into confusion I'd been driven; she wasn't successful.
It's just some ego-gratifying (for them) FOO-myth. Like believing my Dad was a bad person. Temperamental, difficult, a perfectionist... egotistical and proud of his success - yep; all that. But that didn't make him bad - he was also extremely kind and generous, willing to try to make people laugh and he worked his butt off to be a success. The MomBro just doesn't get that because someone is different than them, doesn't make them automatically "bad".
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I think the convo Ann, Penny & I were having over on Penny's thread is closer to actuality of what my experience was like... about self-doubt. That may very well be something I struggle with, for the rest of my life. Another term for it, might also be "soul searching"; digging down deep and then going deeper to find something unshakeably firm, reliable, and concrete to hang on to for dear life... by my fingernails, if need be.
I agree. I admire the excellence with which you are relating your thoughts and experiences.
tt
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I loved your jungle, TT...what a lovely description.
The same quote jumped out at me, (((((PR))))...
"soul searching"; digging down deep and then going deeper to find something unshakeably firm, reliable, and concrete to hang on to for dear life... by my fingernails, if need be.
There you are, drilling like a mighty propeller. It is breathtaking to see your speed and power at times.
What your digging to the "concrete" called up in me was an image of you digging as you must and until you break through...but the bottom, instead of solid, will reveal itself as a curtain that, when you turn unexpectedly at a new angle and slip through, will ease you --no faster and no slower than you need to move-- into a space that is not terrifying-vast, but utter-beauty-vast, dense with tangible sensations of simplicity and peace, and the feeling you have will not be so much being anchored, but floating unafraid in a giantness of peace and all-rightness that dwarfs all preceding events, and knowing you are welcome. Having found out that what's at the bottom is an invitation, not an end.
Do I know this? I'm agnostic.
But I wish it for you.
love,
Hops
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Hops - that's a good image. In my version, there is also no FOO able to impinge on the serenity of it. Fat chance, huh?
Here is something interesting; I'm not completely sure what to make of it...
After working on all the "numbers" of the situation, I wanted to make a proposal to bro. Sort of his last chance to get engaged with me and the business. Instead of trying sending him spreadsheets of many numbers... or trying to explain over the phone in conversation... I wrote a letter and mailed him the paper. Most of the letter was a description of the "landscape" of the situation as I am understanding it - a whole picture analysis. Then I made 4 specific proposals and gave him a deadline to respond to me.
A couple days ago, he called and tentatively agreed to my suggestions. We'll talk more this week or at least he said we would. Because I had pointed out in the letter that I'd been making these suggestions for about a year now and that his lack of response during that time was - in my mind at least - responsible for the seriousness of my position at present... he said to me, that he never intended to make me feel as if he was ignoring me or didn't care. So I told him, well - that's exactly how I felt. That bit, he hasn't responded to yet...
That leads me to believe that this trait of his, is unconscious in it's source. It's like he's had a "come to Jesus" moment and he's temporarily sane... connected to reality and able to see other people in it as people and not just objects within his delusion. It won't last long; the effects of this wear off - and in a month or two he'll be wearing even deeper ruts into the well-worn track of his script again... wondering why everyone's angry with him and why he's so miserable.
I also realized that I did myself a big favor by sending a letter, instead of simply trying to talk to him. I've accidentally, intuitively hit on the best way to communicate with him. When I talk, I think just the sound of my voice, stimulates those old scripts... and he tunes me out. He literally doesn't hear me... and therefore has the ability to deny the subject matter of what we talked about. Verbally, I don't feel all that confident about how I express myself despite public speaking and teaching in the classroom - but as you know, I'm prolific with words on a page, even digital ones. Even though I don't always say something of significance! LOL....
You'd think I'd relax under the circumstances and feel successful and like I "won"... but I don't. I know without a doubt, that within months I'll be facing the same old, same old again with him on another topic. I don't even trust that we've actually gotten to an agreement over the proposals yet... and won't, until they actually are implemented. My first reaction was to feel "FOOlish" about making a federal case out of this... when bro is making it the whole thing look like a simple misunderstanding at the moment.**
And then I realized something else about how this subtle manipulation works... because of lack of response over a long time, because of the direct communication (in words) that he didn't care, because he is trying to wiggle out of responsibility and accountability for his actions and find a way to blame me (up until this most recent conversation)... because he flat out, literally didn't HEAR me... I felt I had no choice except to respond as strongly and clearly as I could, without directly lobbing a threat or an implied threat in his direction. I pinned the tail of responsibility directly on him, in other words. Where it belongs. And nothing more. But if I had used anger to express myself... or made explicit "or else" threats... the situation would be completely different.
It is precisely the unconscious M.O. of the seriously P-A person, to drive those around him/her absolutely nuts - to the extremes of infuriated exasperation... because then they can point; laugh; condemn; criticize and DEFLECT responsibility onto the person having the emotional meltdown.
**My emotional response wasn't out of line; under the circumstances I've exerted way more self-control than people who know my temper would expect of me. Especially given the triggers to old anger, in the present situation. It's a normal response. But, even so - since I know there is no acceptance or recognition that how I feel "matters"... historically... I'm not being seduced by this quasi-apology from my bro. It's only temporary sanity.
I'm going to stay the course on the rest of my strategic and tactical planning. And I'm not letting my guard down for one second - not giving him a single opportunity to get me "hooked" through feeling sorry for him again. He is an adult man, over 50 years of age. He has choices; he's educated (well sort of)... he is not helpless. I do not need to protect him anymore. He has a mother.
And I need my own clear and strong boundaries for my own sanity. We are business partners, but we do not have a personal relationship beyond the fact that we were children together and lived through hell. I moved on, survived, and found a way to heal... I have suggested to him, that he should do the same... but my responsibility ends there.
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Maybe we should carry a warning notice:
'DO NOT get us in to a position where we have to write you a letter.'
Works for me. Strange how some people only respond to written directions. Strange how when I do write to them, they seem to believe that I will indeed carry through with my intentions. Even when I have been on very shaky legal ground!
I've reached the stage in the past where I have said: put it in writing to me, I won't talk about it. You have something to say to me? Write it. Put your belief/courage on the paper.
It's almost as if the written word, on paper, makes it real and gives the idea a power, a physical presence. Maybe this makes it a 'thing' (to our opponents), a 'thing' that has to be dealt with, like an invoice.
Very sad that so many situations end up like this.
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I think that's the "thing" that's interested me, Guest...
me talking - either face to face or on the phone - is less real, less important to him... less heard, than something in writing. Matters less... and maybe that's part of his problem relationally. Could be part of a learning disability, too... some students take in and "know" information better via reading than hearing; it's like they have a short in their hearing "receiver" so bits and pieces drop out of the thread of words and they miss the connection between the subject and predicate in the sentence; maybe it's like ADD or ADHD... in that the attention wavers at such a high rate of frequency - tuning in/out - that it's disrupting his ability to get the complete message. He could stick the letter in his pocket and read it in the can, out at practice with his team, sitting in his car... more than once.
Another observation, is that when talking... he'll latch on to one phrase, or a reaction he's having to one phrase of words - and he's off talking and responding before I've finished what I was saying and I can't interrupt or get him back on track until he finishes. Like he's jumping to conclusions... and I'll have to say "Noooo... what I was going to say before you interrupted was _________." Sometimes it's really hard to redirect him from that wrong conclusion, too. It's way more real to him than anything I'm really saying.
Almost like how spouses can finish each other's sentences, except he's way out in left field with his conclusions about what I'm saying. The image I have in my head is that he's trapped inside of a black bubble and wanting to connect with someone anyone even me and so by interrupting this way and superimposing his idea of what I'm going to say he thinks he has a better chance of making that connection and getting out of the black bubble.... because no one can see in and he can't see what's outside the bubble. And he doesn't want anyone inside, either - because he thinks he's safe there, even if he is really lonely. There are huge warning signs, razor wire, landmines, nukes... and a whole sensory deprivation zone worse than the atmosphere of Mordor that other people can't even breathe in.
I can't imagine how he functions or tries to function this way. I guess it's not working too well.... but he does believe it's the rest of world that screwed up; not him... and my pleas to start individual therapy have fallen on deaf ears. And somehow, he seems to keep going on this way - he hasn't hit the wall yet and that's another mystery to me.
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Interesting Amber. I wonder too how some people don't hit that wall....but...I have seen levels of denial so strong that..well: to consider change is death...and people will rather actually die than change. And there's the problem of the buzzing of the verbal/aural external world. You know, like advertising, the more you hear a jingle or phrase, the more you accept it as part of the world...and I guess, if you're prone to delusions...you could tell yourself anything about what the external buzz means. It could provide you with fodder for your delusions. Or something. (I'm out on a very theoretical limb here.)
The gift of fear book - I think he talks about hearing the words 'I'm going to kill you' and what it means, when the person is likely to be serious etc. I wonder how many people say those words and how many hear them. And when they are meant. I think I would always take them seriously.
What you describe about the latching on to phrases...going off in his own world, reacting etc...I have known people do this. Very much locked inside their own heads, their own reality. Can be affecting to witness.
On the other hand: when you put something in writing, when you sign your name, people know that you're serious. Up to that point it can be shooting the breeze. Oh we can be all talk but where's the action? kind of thing. I had this experience a while back: the shock when people realise that you were serious, that you meant it. Do they learn? I have no idea. It depends if they think the world is there to serve their purpose or not, perhaps.
I think we all, to an extent, don't believe that things will happen until they do. Mostly we behave as if we'll live forever. Mostly we ignore warning signs until the bank seizes our home, we lose our job, our spouse leaves us, our child ends up in hospital having their stomach pumped, we end up killing a bunch of people on the freeway because we took a phone call at 60mph. I guess taking risks, being in denial about risks, ignoring the 'buzz' is something we could all do - to an extent. The vast majority of us will care about things possibly going wrong and at some point will come out of that denial. A small percentage of course don't care at all and there must be a sliding scale of not caring much to not caring at all, I guess. In some ways it seems that there is a fine balance between healthy delusion and lack of survival skills. You can't believe in your invincability in the face of the thing that will eat you: but I see people who almost stand there thinking "this isn't real, I don't have to concern myself". Maybe we should leave them out on the savannah.
Might you consider following up your latest phone conversation with another letter, detailing what you both said? Otherwise the phone convo, in his mind, might have overidden the deadline in your letter.
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Thanks Guest - I'm gonna think over some of those ideas. Not for the first time! LOL... but revisit the idea that the MomBro actually do live in a parallel universe that's defined by their own fears, lack of ability to connect emotion to the actions they've taken/not taken that cause an "effect"; lack of respect for other people as real people with feelings and the ability to act any way they want... self-soothing delusions, etc. I do have my own, and they're not always benign. I'm wary of them.
We left it, that we'd have another conversation this week (his deadline hasn't arrived yet, in any case). I'm not waiting by the phone! :D
So, I want to see what happens. Stalking the lion... upwind... I want to see if he can engage more actively and honestly with me. I want to see what happens with SIL after school lets out this week. In my reality, there are many things that can't be controlled or controlled for. Things can change in an instant - and do. Things that are important when they happen are often unanticipated; they can impact context, meaning, significance in unexpected ways too. I no longer believe these events are automatically complete disasters - as I was taught. I understand there are often silver linings... as long as I wait for the full picture to come together before "doing" something based on a wrong or incomplete set of data. Since I'm in charge of the "timeline" right now... I of course, built in some space to account for the occasional "delay" or stalling from bro. There will be other things to do that will also take time - even if he still agrees to accept the pieces of my proposal and move forward with implementation. And I think our by-laws require "consent" in writing... I'm going to find out while I'm waiting to hear from bro and put someone else on "stand by" for a board meeting, once I get an idea of when bro can make time for one.
Keeping the hunting metaphor going but shifting to fish... I'm starting to wonder about the "hook" into the FOO Fun&Games that's always used on me. I used to think it was anger - but now, I think I'm wrong. When I look at the hook being "set" in my own empathy response... I can see both how deadly that can be (betrayal giving rise to anger & eventually NC)... and I guess I never, ever once asked myself if everyone everywhere in all circumstances are actually WORTHY of empathy. And also... the extent of the empathy; for instance my old habit of throwing myself under a bus - empathy at my own expense - for people who don't give a fig for what they can say I did to myself... even tho' they "hooked" me into trying to help and didn't ever say - "Oh, look out for that bus".
I hope that makes sense! My FOO's main game is a mobius strip.
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That makes a lot of sense, all round, Amber. Including the mobius strip.
Empathy is useful when the other person wants/needs/naturally evokes it through being very human....empathy for some people can be like being so affected by a novel, that you want to 'help' or feel for the characters in real life, even though they're two-dimensional. Ha, not a great comparison!
Not sure it's being worthy of empathy or not..maybe it's more practical than that: in as much as empathisiing with the snake is a total waste of time. :D But really, empathy is only useful when it's two-way: sent, received, understood. Or used to understand someone for your own benefit, not theirs. If that makes sense.
I'm getting empathy for me. Taken a very long time.
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Not sure it's being worthy of empathy or not..maybe it's more practical than that: in as much as empathisiing with the snake is a total waste of time. But really, empathy is only useful when it's two-way: sent, received, understood. Or used to understand someone for your own benefit, not theirs. If that makes sense.
So.... there's no such thing as one-way empathy? Would that be sympathy, instead - as in sympathizing with someone's feelings or circumstances? Being able to see myself in someone else's shoes...
Maybe it's just my programming (another bug in the scripting?) - but I was definitely raised to "care" and "feel for others", without expecting the same back. In fact, it was pointed out that the expectation of a mirroring back of that same concern and being on the same wavelength was just flat out egotistical, selfish, and childish.... and destructive to relationships. I was taught that most of the time, people "like" someone else more than they are "liked" in return; that this was normal and "the way things are".
No one sacrificed all - threw themselves under the bus - for me; no matter how many times I was expected to do this for Mom or Bro.
This came up once in therapy, but we didn't explore it then. I am struggling with intimacy in relationships these days - for a lot of reasons. The old "where in the world is the boundary" question keeps coming up too. It feels like I've been sent out onto the field without knowing what game we're playing or what the rules are - not even which team I'm on. Part of my difficulty, I think... is that I actively keep people at a distance... prevent intimacy... a result of how I was injured by trusting my mom to care about me. Her methods of mothering me... all resulted in worse feelings of abandonment and rejection; she didn't have clue one how to go about it. But I damn well had to care about & for her!! No matter what I felt about her.
So I wonder how much of this confusion over empathy that I have impacts intimacy? It sounds like there's a logical connecton there. I wonder if I just feel safer - being invisible - not known; not available to be cared for - because it's always turned out badly before and I therefore expect and anticipate that wound... that hasn't even happened. Fear, in other words.
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I think caring can be saying, doing, helping, rousing, encouraging, analysing, supporting, advising...
I think empathy is more being present to the other, willing to witness.
Offering something kind and spacious, where they can sense the company of your heart.
Hops
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Oh yeah! There's one-way empathy for sure. I was talking about when empathy is genuinely useful...as opposed to wasted, or is being manufactured in us as feed for the care-taker (very useful for them of course).
people "like" someone else more than they are "liked" in return; that this was normal
of course, I know.
I don't want someone to throw themselves under a bus for me; but it would be nice not to be thrown under that bus all the time! Can you see the tyre marks? sigh. They're wearing thinner now. Now that I refuse to be so easily thrown. Walking down roads without buses on them makes a fair difference.
available to be cared for
Tricky one this. Do you miss some things that you have never had? Possibly, in some ways. I don't think you can ever replace the primary care that was missing. You have to accept the loss/vacuum. Otherwise you may repeat, thinking that you're getting care, when it's another using relationship. The kind of care we missed can't be replicated in adults. Probably exactly because we are adults. As for intimacy, isn't that being known and knowing another?
Hops - the company of your heart - warming and wise. So human.
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So I wonder how much of this confusion over empathy that I have impacts intimacy? It sounds like there's a logical connecton there. I wonder if I just feel safer - being invisible - not known; not available to be cared for - because it's always turned out badly before and I therefore expect and anticipate that wound... that hasn't even happened. Fear, in other words.
Amber,
I think all that stuff is connected: Our experiences with empathy (reciprocal or unilateral), boundaries, wounding & fear all impact how we handle intimacy. Sounds like you are deconstructing & reconstructing all that stuff.
I also think related to empathy & intimacy are the words/concepts "selfish", "selfless", "self esteem", "self care" & "self soothing": how do we define these now & how did we define them in the past?
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Now that I refuse to be so easily thrown. Walking down roads without buses on them makes a fair difference.
hahahahahaha! No buses would make a big difference! I hadn't thought of that, at all.
or is being manufactured in us as feed for the care-taker (very useful for them of course).
I can't exactly laugh at this phrase. I sense evil in that situation and shrink from even looking at it, for fear of being contaminated by it. Precisely because (I think), part of me knows it all too well and won't ever forget it. In some small way, it helps that someone else knows about that particular dysfunction in a relationship. Pod People... Invasion of the Body Snatchers... gave me nightmares for the obvious associative reasons.
It's come up frequently here on the board - the vampire-like way these parents feed off manufactured crises, and the emotional distress of others. It came up in my own therapy, too. I don't think I've ever been ready to really do my own deep-space-soul exploration of it... it so goes against what I feel is the natural order of the universe... which I guess, is one way to define evil. I want to - if possible - completely deny the reality of this "power" over others that these people wield, sans morals and emotion. Make it a scary fairy tale... somehow... that has a happy ending. And I know that this is just sticking my head in the sand and hiding. It's real; it happens; it happened to me -- and lots of other people.
Once the "trick" is revealed - and the truth stands alone - the sense of betrayal, the emotional pain usually destroys the relationship, in say a close friendship or a marriage. When this happens with a parent - unless, like you say you go where there are no buses - it happens so often, so repeatedly.... one feels (whether or not this part is true) that one is totally helpless to change the dynamic. One accepts that helplessness in the face of attempts to generate that empathy; to manipulate and use someone again. One likes to believe there is hope for sibs - sometimes there is; sometimes not.
Somehow in this most recent "close encounter" with my FOO-characters and their primary games & scripts... something shifted in me for the first time. I - and this is most important - I didn't throw MYSELF under the bus in an attempt to interrupt, influence, or edit the traditionally dysfunctional FOO-script. Instead, I was angry, outraged, disbelieving - maintained my boundaries - and walked away when I said I would... to the place where there are no buses looking for me. I sure as hell didn't feel any empathy for either of them, after I arrived and understood that all they needed me for -- was that kind of "feeding". My SIL is no longer available to either of them for this... so they came back to me to fill that role.
HMMMM. Not sure what the significance of all that is - or if it even has any. Things do look different since turning that corner; finally taking that one step...off what I thought was a cliff, only to find myself caught short only about a foot or two below - not falling, falling, falling through a huge distance of space waiting to go splat.
Offering something kind and spacious, where they can sense the company of your heart.
This is helpful, Hops and beautifully written. Your ability to say complex things so simply still astounds me! It's that "being present with" another that I mean and understand as intimacy. Where one is completely open and trusting to the other... and they are the same, too. It's almost a subliminal perception - a sense of the state of things - and doesn't render the details that well, in words. At least for me. I'm still reading lots of "womens" books... on a Lisa See kick now because last summer I read Shanghai Girls and got really hooked. Might switch to Allende again just for a change in cultures; setting.
Hi ANN!!! ::waving::
thanks for that context & perspective... you're probably right about the deconstructing/reconstructing/redefining. It's different on this side of the corner I turned. Yes, I think you're also right that a prerequisite for this - was a foundational restructuring of "self". That took a few years longer than I anticipated - all by itself. I feel - oddly - way more secure in the new structure, than the old one. More confident in my competence... if that makes any sense at all. I was pretty wobbly though, at the point of turning the corner. Ain't done yet - but I can at least begin working on the next phase construction. And significantly - this new structure doesn't require any approval or input from FOO. Design by committee NEVER works.
The kind of care we missed can't be replicated in adults. Probably exactly because we are adults.
You all are great!! The collective wisdom here is one I know I missed but knew existed - the women working & talking over a quilt; putting up the harvest; sewing.... minding babes... or sitting on boards of directors. Whether it's just two women or more... I've been learning that this is one thing I crave. I've done the "world of men" and didn't do too badly at it - but always retreated and kept women at arm's length because of my experience with my mom; I feared the same kind of betrayal, rejection, etc -- I was so afraid that this was all there was and that the other image was a fantasy and didn't exist. You've proven I didn't need to fear.
I am of two minds about whether holes can be filled; whether or not we can replace or attain what we needed as children - because we're no longer children. It is true, that the time for our total dependence for existence on another person is past until we are ancient and decrepit in our old age. The lessons we assimilated from poor or neglectful or painful parenting are woven intrinsically into our being; part of who we are, if we define ourselves as the chronological experiences that have made up our lives. (There are other ways of defining ourselves.)
I believe that the actual things we needed and didn't have, are independent of the relationship itself. The relationship of FOO members, for me, is a lost cause. But I know that like the parable of "manna from heaven" the things I need are still available to me, if I allow myself to connect with other people, take those risks of trusting tempered with my better understanding of boundaries... and make a conscious effort to avoid unconsciously looking for a parent-child kind of relationship. I am convinced of this, because I've experienced this... with people who are not my blood relatives. I can start listing them... but I run out of fingers and toes!
I guess for some people, this "just happens". For me it takes more awareness and effort (within myself)... and perhaps with enough practice it will start to feel like it "just happens". And one of the keys to this... starts with me caring first - not always waiting or expecting the other person to care about me first, as a "condition" for relationship and intimacy. Although, that's beginning to occur more frequently these days, too... and I have to work really hard not to retreat and avoid - out of plain old habit. I typically run the opposite direction as fast as I can... and people don't understand the real reason; they just think I'm anti-social or don't like other people. Not true at all - and perhaps it's just laziness and that funky comfort-zone of what I'm "used to" - that I let them think what they want or tell them I'm boring and don't make the effort to get out and do things with people and relearn the "art of hanging out".
Enough babbling today. I have work to do.
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Well, I don't know about happy endings. There are just endings. Maybe it would help if we didn't have 'happy ending' stories? If we never had the happy ending, but something approaching "and then the next thing happened, but that's the end of the story for us".
Story-telling, 'telling stories', short stories and 'tall stories'. Interesting how people can manufacture their own story, keep telling it, building on it, believing it no doubt. How does this story of My Life sound? If I say it enough, it will be true (regardless of the truth). Tell me one thing:
if you had witnessed, been involved in, a tragic, disturbing event, would you forget the date of that event? Perhaps if there were pre-events that contributed to the tragedy, would you perhaps think back to those times instead and lengthen your memory of 'the event'? I wonder. Anyway:
Helplessness ends with the end of attachment, perhaps. When you can see and feel that any bond is only in your head and is outdated and broken; with no relation to reality. Helplessness only happens in the face of power: remove the power and you are free.
I sure as hell didn't feel any empathy for either of them
there are times - or places - when our empathy glands/pathways shrivel up and turn tail. Probably when they get (correctly) spooked by fear or shock. But if it's useful, we can still fake it and turn that manufacture/feed dynamic on its head. Doesn't do us any good unless we know we're playing the game for an objective, an outcome. Even if playing makes us feel very very sick.
not falling, falling, falling through a huge distance of space waiting to go splat.
glad you found it isn't such a big cliff Amber. I guess most things aren't.
this new structure doesn't require any approval or input from FOO
did it ever?
I believe that the actual things we needed and didn't have, are independent of the relationship itself.
LOL Hell YES! Turn that sentence around and see how funny it is. No, seriously, do. I bet you'll enjoy it. I did!
Okay that's enough fun for today.
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Thank you, (((((Guest)))) for your drama-free sanity.
I really appreciated reading this.
Helplessness ends with the end of attachment, perhaps. When you can see and feel that any bond is only in your head and is outdated and broken; with no relation to reality. Helplessness only happens in the face of power: remove the power and you are free.
Hops
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Hey Hops
I've had enough 'drama' for a lifetime. Drama is not seriousness, yes? Because of the word drama and its associations, I actually don't like the theatre. I feel manipulated as an audience member! And it's a reaction against all the people I know - several - who love the theatre, dahling. Well that's my thing I guess.
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OK, Guest - date: Mar 15, 1968. VERY traumatic experience for moi... and there were absolutely no winners that day. The time leading up to that (only about 12 years for me)... had very few "bright" and "sunny" spots in it if I look at FOO only*, to want to relive... rather it was a "highway to hell" (Savoy Brown). The day itself is remembered as more like a silent film; for the actions/reactions/consequences... sans editorial mental comment... and emotion even, comes & goes throughout the filmstrip -- until the part where my mother doesn't believe me about what happens and then punishes me, when I insist it did and for the actions I took to save my own life, keep my brother safe, and take care of us while she was not there. I won't even get into the worst of it; that all happened about a year afterward, when my mother flipped out and appeared to be a multiple personality... and did even worse things to me.
* thank god that my instinct was to be somewhere OTHER than home - a lot more than other kids... or maybe that was a learned instinct.
Doesn't do us any good unless we know we're playing the game for an objective, an outcome. Even if playing makes us feel very very sick.
I know what you're talking about here. I had to do this with an N-boss... and wasn't too bad at it; he offered lots of "practice" you know??? ::LOL:: I learned to get in and get out, safely; most of the time. And that sick feeling... feels way more like shame for me... like I'm lowering myself to the level of playing games BECAUSE no one will take a straightforward request, suggestion or advice seriously and respond directly back. And people shouldn't have to resort to that to work... make decisions in life... etc. Notice the "should" monster has raised his head...
well, with MomBro... that "should" monster grows larger and my feeling of cognitive dissonance (and betrayal, abandonment, and maybe even shame - tho' that's papered over with anger) grows right along with it.
[A memory just pooped into my head (that was a typo, but it's appropriate)... my mom's definition of "family": it's the PLACE where, when you have no where else to go, they have to take you in. Not people; not caring; not relationships... it's a place; things. I don't know what part of my brain thinks that's relevant...]
To try to turn the game around with MomBro - even Bro - is very, very dangerous for me, because of that sense of dissonance which of course, he doesn't even experience... because he can't even begin to see things from my perspective nor why my perspective (and myself) matters - or should - to him, at least in the business realm. I feel like Bruce Lee... trying to single-handedly disable multiple attackers -- because those emotions attached to the dissonance can and have disabled me in the past... just to get to the person hiding behind them. To be heard and recognized; taken seriously; to matter.
So, I use what I've learned from Tai Chi Push Hands. This is working with a partner, and you are required to maintain contact with the back/front of the wrist. There are various patterns beginners practice, with a single arm. Then, when basic skills are learned one moves on to using both arms. The rest of the body is also involved, as feet need to be properly placed to maintain balance and strength as you shift weight back & forward. At the more advanced levels - the partners begin to move around from that stationary position in 6 directions or more. The most important skill to learn is the first one - how to move without ever breaking contact.
It is through the contact that each partner can "listen" to the other, and know precisely when and how to move to gain the goal of Push Hands - which is simply to pull one's "opponent" off balance. The easiest ways to do this is with timing, misdirection and the one I like the best... not being "there" - not being where the opponent thinks I'm going to be... because then, their expection and the momentum in their movement sends them off away from me... all by themselves and I've made no aggressive move at all.
Well, what I noticed after a couple years of working on this was that the part of my mind that attaches emotions to perception and experience shuts up. (I'm calling it Monkey Mind.) It stops telling me what to do... stops anticipating threats... stops sending ME off in the wrong direction because it was distracting my attention... and my opponent got out of the way or took advantage of my lack of strength or balance in those split-seconds. And instead, I have a direct "connection" through my body that knows what to do, when. It knows without thinking... and from that place, I can also permit myself to be more aggressive - take positive direct action, instead of the indirect - without feeling as if I'm going to hurt someone, break taboos, or otherwise do something "bad"....
... without the "cognitive dissonance (and betrayal, abandonment, and maybe even shame - tho' that's papered over with anger)" being involved at all. It was one of those earth-shattering breakthroughs for me to find that place within myself... the one that "knew" without thinking and reacted correctly, instinctively and could easily make those direct, positive actions without agonizing over the decision... and suffering no consequences either; just a compliment from the teacher. "Should" doesn't even exist in that place... it's more like a 1 & 0... on or off type place.
It is the only way I've found to cut through the BS of shoulds, the cognitive dissonance and the tagalong emotions... and deal directly with "what is", no matter who the person is - Mom or Bro - and maintain just enough contact to know when to push and when to get the hell out of the way! And perhaps writing - instead of talking - to Bro falls into that place and techniques... no, I shouldn't have to - but when he absolutely doesn't hear or understand the importance of what I'm telling him and asking him... ??? I have to keep trying something else, right? To maintain "contact". So, I "won" this current round with Bro - I got agreement from him on 3 points of the proposal; the 4th wasn't important to me and he gravitated right to it and disagreed with that one. ;) Like a bee to honey. The distraction of "saving face" and having an ego-bone to "prove" he's powerful and in control... sigh....
Here's the thing - having to do that makes me feel slimy, low, immoral, and just plain sneaky and bad. He is my brother and he's 52 years old. Why can we not relate to each other on an adult level? Why are all these extra steps (and I did ask a 3rd party to help explain things to him; in case it was "me" that was the problem in getting him to engage and understand)... NECESSARY? The should monster shrinks and hides away... until the next time... but he's always lurking. Part of me simply refuses to accept the tech support maxim which applies to my brother: "You can't fix stupid. You can buy 'em books, send 'em to school and they just chew on the pages."
He says things to me which make absolutely no sense at all - when he runs out of things to accuse me of, like:
"You're a techie person, what's so wrong with just picking up the phone and talking to someone? Why do you always have to email, put things in writing?" This, right after I told him, I sent him the proposal in a letter... because I express myself better in writing than just talking... and I needed to have my meanings clear for him, to understand.
Anyone wanna try to decode that? Or how about, he told me last year he was going to retire this year. So, making conversation, I asked him when he thought he'd retire this year... and he asked me who told me he was going to retire. When I said he did... of course, I was imagining things... maybe he has multple personalities, too. At least Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde... Mom's that way, too. When she "flips" into the other personality nothing she said or did before matters anymore... now it's something else.
I will stop being so damn stubborn about forcing him to be what he obviously is not; interested and engaged in business. I will deal only with "what is"... even though our employees are now starting to make jokes about "where in the world is Bro" this week? Do you have to call your mom to get him to call someone back, still? (which is why I don't call him anymore... it can literally be weeks before he responds and he thinks that's appropriate with his partner but reams me out when I'm forced to act or decide, for the good of the business and not consult him - BECAUSE he doesn't respond... I hate passive-aggressiveness.).
And I'm still pursuing information about my "nuclear option" through my hired guns. It's interesting, too - I'm starting to sense that this scenario isn't all that foriegn to the group and the female leader, in particular. She is watching my back legally... and probably more than anyone else in the room seems to have first-hand personal experience in situations like mine. On the emotional side; the healing side. Because you know... with these PD people... even if you finally get them to come around this time... there's always a next time, where it's the same old crap again.
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Hi Amber, clarification:
Doesn't do us any good unless we know we're playing the game for an objective, an outcome. Even if playing makes us feel very very sick.
Sick with disgust, not shame. I mean the aggressive 'play them at their own game' in order to snooker them. In other words, use tactics against them which they may use: flattery, apparent 'feeding', being exceptionally false to obtain what we want - whatever our objective is. Maybe it is what you mean. I don't know. I wasn't very good at it at work because I can't maintain that level of falseness for long. It's so draining and stressful that it's not an everyday activity. But I guess that depends on the 'level' of playing needed. Maybe I did do it on a small level by not saying what I thought? I don't know. I find it difficult to remember who I was. :?
I mean something like breaking bread - and eating it - with your most dangerous opponent. That useful very human skill!
I meant this to be a quick one but....
Why do you always have to email, put things in writing?"
"I do it deliberately and specifically to annoy and upset you of course! Why else would I do it? You know how much you enjoy being annoyed with me! Now say 'thank you'." :D
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Hahahahaha! I don't think he'd get the sarcasm or the joke or the point, none of the above Guest... nor the underlying subtext that I despise "talking" with him... because of the level of denial later on, passed off as "I don't remember saying that". It's as if I speak a foriegn language, many times, talking to him... I have to repeat what I said, incessantly, until I forget what I was trying to say. Perhaps that's his way of controlling a conversation out of existence... for whatever un- or semi-conscious reason. If he can frustrate someone so much that they give up and go away... he doesn't have to engage in the conversation, be accountable, responsible and doesn't have to admit that it's an important topic, nor make any decision -- and that's the ONLY thing that feeds his ego. Ironically - he came back after reading my letter and told me he didn't intend to make me think that my suggestions were unimportant to him. Funny how I got that idea after waiting a whole year for him to respond to the first suggestion and being put off yet again when I'd remind him, ya know? This kind of behavior is a good example of what I call "lack of self-awareness" -- it never occurs to PD people that they might impact other people and hurt their feelings (or worse)... trampling all over accepted social and business procedures... becoming an obstacle to any and every ongoing process... like some insentient & moronic Godzilla... until they've completely destroyed the things that are necessary to their own security, well-being, and bubble of denial.
The phrase "run amok" comes to mind. Or N-robo-zombie-vampire-pocalypse. (is that danceable?)
I understood what you meant about turning the game around. At work, I was able to do this without feeling shame, most of the time (I think after realizing that it could/would never be different... shame started to creep in). It was simply the only way to effectively move things ahead with my N-boss. It's the old, sadly-too-common FOOlament, when dealing with my family, I guess... that I "shouldn't" have to resort to this strategy with them. N-boss was an adult - but didn't act like it.
Ya know what though? I think I just "saw" something! In the same way I was taught to misinterpret "anticipation & excitement" feelings as "anxiety"... I think the same thing kinda happened with this shame I feel -- because someone else is F'd up. All the way back to the "original wound", in fact. The Yang to the Yin here, is that I am embarrassed by these people... ashamed OF them. They of course, can't feel shame - because that requires some self-awareness and the ability to admit doing "wrong". In the same way that I get "hooked" into the FOO fun & games through empathy... I also get snookered into taking on the shame that belongs to someone else.
Ah yes; because I wasn't allowed to have self-boundaries. Right. That's why I am such an important part of my mom's hoarding -- she's "saving it" for me... I need to "take it away" from her -- just like her projections onto me, of things that I was NOT -- and because I can feel the shame of her living space disaster - and she can't.
And it fell out of my mouth unconsciously, a post or two back: I cover up shame with anger... so there's my "warning signal" that the direct hook of empathy has been abandoned for new bait... make Amber mad; she'll feel shame... and then be responsible (the adult in the room)... and teach (me) us what to do... or do it herself... and then we can criticize her... humiliate her by making fun of her... accuse her of exactly what we do to her...
OH LORD. What was that you were saying, Guest about hungry lions? Run? Don't you mean run like hell?
There is one last piece to this scenario that I haven't talked to death so I can see what's behind/under it yet... and that's the impossibility of having an impact, initiating change... in someone who is PD and this un-self-aware or so far in denial. Hubs keeps saying Bro "will come around"... and I keep laughing at him, hysterically... at hubs' naivete. Sure, Bro agreed to my proposal this time... that doesn't mean he had a "come to Jesus" moment that has changed his life. Two months (or less) from now - we'll have another topic and I'll be right back to square one - and the same old, same old. I have seen it so many times... my new advisor agrees that this is more likely than that we've turned a corner and will work better together from now on. I really think she knows and has seen this personally, before.
I've been minding my boundaries about this. It's hardly my place to do more than I have done - suggest my brother enter therapy by himself (before addressing the marriage issues). I really don't need to beat myself up with guilt for having escaped the same fate as Bro... or for investing the time to sort all this out for ME... and it's not in my "contract" or "job description" to "take care of my bro", be his glorified admin assistant in the businesses, or otherwise shelter him from reality so he can remain in his self-serving little bubble of denial. No more taking care of sick people at the middle, for me...
I'm going to take care of me and the people who do care about me. Lighter asked awhile back to tell her how this works out for me. It's working out just fine so far, Light! It's difficult, I have to go to and face all the crap again of dealing with this strange dysfunction again - YES. But what I want and am working for is different, because I'm giving up on the possibility of having any impact on the dysfunction in MomBro. I am learning to not care about how screwed up it is... slowly trying to accept that there literally isn't a damn thing I can do about it.... EXCEPT take care of myself and let the other crap become DOA for me, emotionally. Yes, I have to do things I don't feel I should have to resort to. Yes, some of the things I'm learning I am and can do scare the living crap out of me -- because it's extreme and final and again, I had really hoped that it wouldn't come to this. It has - and there's nothing I can do about that except defend myself and fight back. Maybe it should've happened a long time ago.
I didn't really believe that I could be coldly rational, calculating and strategically patient enough to be able to put together a plan to finally sever my connection to that kind of dysfunction once and for all. It's not "nice" either. And it feels a bit horrible... but it will be fair. My mom and I used to argue about women in the military... she was of the opinion that women aren't able to go into combat; it's just not in their nature to kill, even when someone's shooting at them. (This contradicts her own violent & aggressive tendencies.) And I told her, if someone was threatening my home, family, myself - shooting at me, I damn well would shoot back. I won't like it... and it frightens me to know I have this ability to "go there"... but I'm not "going down" without a fight.
And that also applies to being impacted by the same rediculous passive-aggressive, dysfunctional crap of my brother's bubble of denial, too. That is almost a bigger threat to myself and well-being than being shot at and much more difficult, complex and expensive to defend against. But it can be done... pieces are falling into place, info is being assembled and digested, and it's close to getting down to just the timing factor...
And in the meantime - I still "lose" if it's occupying so much of my waking (and sleeping) existence. Time to let it go and move on to other things for awhile.
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N-robo-zombie-vampire-pocalypse. (is that danceable?)
only if you split and emphasize as:
N-robo-zombie-vampire-poca-lypse
could be rave, could be rap, possibly a little space rock gnome lyric?
strategically patient
I'm going to think about this phrase. Right now I'm tending towards: and some have patience thrust upon them. Can one choose strategic patience? (I'm thinking it's forced learning.)
Nice one about the shame. Leave it where it belongs!
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The unconscious "need" to recreate old scripts that I've seen in MomBro and that I fell into myself... reminded me of a book I read years ago that illustrates this splendidly - "The Strange Life of Ivan Osokin", by P.D. Ouspensky. I'm pretty sure it was this book that attracted Bill Murray to the script for Ground Hog Day. It's a little longer than short-story length; a very short novel. I don't recall much of the book, anymore - except this one underlying element to the story. It's an artifact from a very strange time period and school of "thought".
I used to think I could collect enough of those strange ideas to solve my own "puzzle". But I was reading the wrong artifacts! :D Should've been reading my own, all along. But don't you know? That was also included in the group of things that were taboo - off limits - don't go there. Why? Because it was "self" oriented... self exploration, self knowledge, self inquiry, self examination, self image, self esteem, self - ish and egotistical... to have boundaries and an independent "self" in my FOO. What MomBro said about me, told me, was considered more "authoritative", more true, more "right"... than what I saw and felt about myself. That was where my resistance frontline was... that was what my mom was going "break" in me... the nascent "self" that was emerging and solidifying and being experimented with as I chose what "fit" for me... from what was me and around me.
So - strategic patience... for me, means the decision I made to not leave the "insane house" until I graduated high school and to find ways to survive and cope and sort out this crap. To wait patiently until things had lined up that I needed, to have some chance of success. Timing - being legal age was critical. Reading as much of those strange ideas as I could lay my hands on; including the complete works of Shakespeare, including the sonnets - twice. Classics were included. Non-Fiction too... I even read things like Popular Science... feeding a curiosity in mechanical things, engineering, science... right alongside Sci-Fi. I read Dune, too... but except for a short poem about fear... nothing stuck with me from that; I wasn't overly engaged by the story.
Strategic patience - is knowing how "drama" works and the key points of the script that's currently being re-enacted with MomBro - and what is the same; what is different. Strategic patience stands outside and watches - because it's not always helpful to be in the midst of the drama with the distractions and the speed of emotions lobbed like exploding rocks. This kind of patience anticipates (we've been here before anyway) where the warp in time/space - opportunity; change - is and researches what word or action is best suited to achieve the results I am still choosing. There is also lots of time for self-reflection... letting things settle and looking at the situation from every angle one can possibly think of - and then asking what hasn't been thought of; what don't I know?
That way, when one of those warps in time/space show up - I'm prepared and ready and have pre-selected (as best as possible; it's not a 100% thing) what my action will be - if any. It includes much listening... to silence... to wisps of thoughts, ideas, fears and desires... and to other people talk. The topic doesn't matter; if I'm paying attention I hear many, many important things. I "try out" scenarios on trusted people... to get their feedback, see what they see, and what I haven't seen.
Sun Tzu said: Know yourself, as well as you know your opponent. Because if I'm planning on taking any action, I'd better have a pretty good idea what I hope to accomplish with it, and how. If I don't know this, how will I recognize the correct timing? It can't simply be instinctive re-action - defensive or offensive. Taking any action - including none - means I am also a player in the drama; but this time I'm writing my own part instead of having it shoved down my throat and into my head. I know my motives have to be "clean"; no anger or revenge; I have to be absolutely clear and committed to my goal - no self-doubt or hesitation or wavering or second-guessing. I have to be able to live with myself and the result afterward. It has to be fair. And I'm sure already that I'm not going to be able to anticipate everything; every result... it's simply not possible to predict where the last ripple of a pebble cast in water will stop.
I am busier now than I ever have been. Internally, again... but with a purpose. It's not just whirling dervish worry anymore. And yes, training... taking on the issue of self-care habits... obliquely... organically... all at the same time as I'm reviewing what my options are; timing; waiting... for things to start coming together on their own first. It's working... albeit slowly... but I think that just might be the real pace of what we humans experience as massive, surprising and shocking, radical change... one it's already happened.
For the first time in months - I actually have some hours of pure solitary solitude and I've missed it. I need to get hubs out of the house (or go myself) more often.
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Hi Amber,
My D is reuniting with her brothers around the terminal condition of her former stepmother. It's very sad but also moving, as she had missed them (they had dumped her, just in self absorption, after their father, my ex, died).
And you know my brother story. He is beyond N, a sociopath. Malevolent and crazy. (I survived that battle but life was rearranged forever.)
Reason for all that preamble is I wanted to ask something: when you use the term MomBro, I wonder if he becomes more demonized when he is swept into that specifically spirit-breaking history you had with her as a result of her denying what happened to you?
I'm not saying he's a healthy personality--at all--I think you've described plenty of ways in which he also denies reality.
But I ask because when I think back to various remarks he's made that you've mentioned, he doesn't sound like a bad human being. Or one who wishes you harm.
Something about the term "MomBro" makes me wonder if you might perhaps be demonizing him. And, there's money in it...the business. That distorts everything.
I totally applaud the idea of you extracting yourself from a business relationship with him. I just wonder if you could do it and let him remain your brother? One day your mother will be gone. I don't think it sounds as though he'd ever be a very functional or helpful figure in your life...but just because he does not sound evil (only inept), I wondered if you might like to have him in your life, at all, in future. (Not in a fantasy way, but in a limited but real way of continuing to be related.)
Your feelings now are warlike and I know money can mean war, I'm still healing my battle wounds. I am just not understanding--perhaps because it's too awkward to explain here, no worries about that--why you can't buy him out, make the business itself buy YOU out, or whatever it is ... so you can get out of the business but without having a new monster in your life. (And, more importantly, in your imagination, for lifelong rumination.)
Or maybe your brother IS monstrous, and I've failed to grasp how. (I get the impression he's a bit dim, passive aggressive, lousy communicator...but I've also heard statements that sound like good intentions toward you. Maybe I was just reading that in? But if that's true, a little good can go a long way.)
Just thinking about the warlike feelings you're having now...I'm wondering if using "MomBro" is serving you. Merging them does dehumanize them more. It seems to escalate the "war". I think your mother's denial of your trauma WAS monstrously destructive to you. But I haven't yet quite grasped how your brother has done anything to the same level...?
He's been uncooperative, stubborn, inattentive, and frustrating. But has he really been wanting to hurt you, or is he himself triggered by pressure...and his passive aggressive stuff is just his own wounded child trying to handle something he can't handle well?
I don't know if there's a peaceful resolution to the business thing. But I wish you one.
Shorter-winded, I just am wondering if Mom and Bro could occupy separate spaces in your mind, rather than a demonic monolith.
And I don't know the answer. No "shoulds".
love,
Hops
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A great description of what you meant Amber by strategic patience. And I agree with Hops about my reaction to the symbolic joining of mom and Bro. It helps me to keep people very separate, because that's what they are. Otherwise I might get carried away!
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Hey Amber,
I'm just riffing on the business aspect of the situation. You're in a 50-50 partnership with your brother, who is P/A & unwilling/unable to meaningfully discuss the business with you. I think I read that you have a new adviser. Can you/do you want to buy out your bro? Are the business assets substantial? Could you just walk away, take a tax loss & carry the tax loss forward for future years? Could you/ would you/do you want to go to court & force a sale of assets? Are the business assets worth fighting for? If you were to fight for them, would you be left with enough $ to justify the fight? What is your easiest & most sensible way out of all this crap, so you can free yourself? I'm not looking for you to respond to me with answers, but to review these questions in your own mind & heart.
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Hi Ann - I am working with some people to help me answer ALL those questions... because I do not know what will happen in the future, nor how it will happen. I need as much info as I can get. That's my "trust in God, but tie your camel" approach that I've always been very glad to have done in uncertain situations in the past. Doing my homework... pays off.
Hops - your point is well taken. Perhaps part of me is too tempted to demonize him, and that's not really serving my own self-interest either, as you also pointed out. The conjoined "MomBro" works for me... to represent the extremely co-dependent and closed nature of how mom is telling bro what to think, feel, do. But the fact of how my "relationship" with bro solo works - is that I do all the real "work" -- and find a way to explain it all, in terms he can comprehend -- and then, am at the mercy of whether or not he will decide rationally or get stuck in a "why is it this way and not that loop"... where his view of reality precludes anyone else's having any merit. The recent "success" of my proposal is the aberration; not the general rule of how things work -- altho' I did take the time to explain as much of the "big picture" as I could for him... because he doesn't take an interest, is not engaged, and thinks doing nothing is always the best decision. In other words, he's forcing me into the "mom" role... where he's not responsible or can plausibly deny responsibility.
Ann's questions are things I need to answer before I consider a decision to extract myself from the business relationship. It takes a good bit of time to answer those questions. That is an extreme action - and I already know that it will destroy any possibility of a personal connection with bro in the future. It's effectively also an NC action. When I search my soul... I know that he is also a victim; like you say - he has his own hurt inner child. And I can feel sorry for him and empathize. But he remains completely in denial about it - is totally unaware (I think) of how this is affecting his relationships. And then demonizes me in all kind of triggering ways... and so keeps our relationship somewhere on the level of a 10 yr old boy and his 12 yr old sister. I know I want a relationship with an adult brother - personally; which hasn't happened over 2 years of re-connection and supposedly both of being involved in this transition, together. We're not "together". I want an adult partner, that I can brainstorm and what-if with -- without being attacked for some totally irrelevant (but triggering nonetheless) emotional reason.
He is an adult GC; he has little knowledge of or patience for the adult world of business, finance, etc. He didn't have to grow up, because mom was always there to tell him what do or think - even when she didn't know either - she "knew" how it all it worked. He doesn't have a relationship with his wife (according to her)... and has created a job situation for himself, where he's rarely at home with his kids... he relies on my mom to counter the evil ideas or rediculous habits his wife tries to impart to her kids (no triangulation there, huh?).
At the beginning of the last two years of "partnership" with him, I realized he still hadn't changed or grown up. It terrified me then because I could see what might be coming in the future with and for him, but more than anything I felt an obligation to try to help him get help. I started to recommend therapy. When the marriage counselor told him he was married to his mother - he denied it, of course and don't you know his schedule changed in such a way that he could no longer go to sessions? He doesn't think much of therapy, at this point.
His life might just come completely unravelled in the next few months - and mom's not in good health either. The last thing I want to do is kick the guy when he's down, IF that comes to pass. The funny thing I've observed about people with this sort of and extent of denial, is that they somehow don't experience the same kind of consequences as other people... the way we would. On the other hand... his lack of knowledge and engagement and refusal to take my input seriously and decide things in a reasonable timeframe... IF the worst comes to pass in his personal life... would certainly leave him even less competent than he already is.
Perhaps, as hubs believes, he's "come to his senses" and the current amiable agreement to my prosposal will persist and we can forge ahead without a change of relationship. I am concerned that he seems not able to remember at all, things he's told me - about his own wants and plans; denies it completely as if he never said them. I have already witnessed bro flip from one personality to another, a few times... so it seems reasonable for me to anticipate that this current better state of affairs is temporary. Even if I initiate nothing.
So... I won't initiate anything without justification and a defendable "stalemate" or "deadlock". It was my dad's intent that we share and keep the business together. However, it's a complex process if I do feel forced into that situation... and so I have the luxury of doing a thorough investigation into what this will entail, cost, and the effects it will have on both of us. AND... if SIL does call it quits with him, it's a different situation that I also have to throughly understand and possibly, defend the company against. When mom dies - that's a whole 'nother situation - that's impossible for me to try to anticipate how it will affect him.
I feel sorry my brother, Hops. But we haven't had a relationship since Twiggy disappeared into her box. And even she has issues with him, too... though I'm getting her to let those go. I won't lose much if we part ways; I won't miss him. I doubt he'll miss me - except in my role as stand-in mom. And I ain't doing that anymore... it just gets me beat up again. So, for the time being, we're locked into this odd connection... and some days, it does take a toll on me.
That's why I think it's time to move on to another topic; going to shut this one down now. This doesn't need to continue to occupy so much of my time and attention - even though it will be an on-going thing.