Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on May 05, 2011, 02:55:24 PM
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Hi Everyone,
Have not been here much in the last couple years but my healing from growing up in dysfunctional N home continues.
What initially brought me to this board was my work with a counselor (NSaint as I would call her), but in my spiritual growth I have worked to not objectify or even worse demonize people as my dark side, shadow part of myself was doing. The darkness in me, my shadow, was filled with contempt for abusers, raw hatred. This raw hatred came from buried unconscious feelings of hatred and humiliation within me. Old stores of shame that my abusive N mom had dumped on me as a child, such as abandonment as well as being objectified by my mom, neglected in my emotional needs etc.. My work with the N counselor triggered my deeper wounds of N, my own, and what came to me from my N FOO.
The story with the Ncounselor drove people nuts (putting it lightly) having to hear about it over and over again. I would move on from her, get her out from under my skin and then she would show back up in my community circle or social circle. I would hear of her doing some ministry or speaking engagement and it would trigger the feelings of powerlessness as well as humiliation that she put me through as well as the old unfinished business. But I found a way to see God or healing in this strange drama by recognizing the sifting I was getting by her evil behavior, helping to bring up the wounds, for you cannot heal what you cannot feel and like lyrics in a song, “the wounds she gave me would be the wounds that would heal me.”
Last year, my parish actually tried to stand up for me to her for her slander, calumny and covert relational aggression of me. Her excuse or cover up was to make or fabricate photos of me (perhaps a no face person) trying to have sex with a dog and show them to my parish, pastor etc. Her idea was to try to smear me in the eyes of others as evil. She is convinced that I am evil, she has demonized me and made me out to be her scapegoat for her darkness that she of course refused to own. Eventually, my parish realized that the photos were fake. However, there was zero consequence for her in her lies. My parish, as a matter of fact, continues to promote her book and website.
I have had to move away from this again. I know that at some point she will just destroy herself or someone will hold a very powerful mirror up to her that will help her heal, as I have been praying. But for the most part, she is a genius at hiding her N stuff, she is an actress and her act is the saintly one.
What amazes me is that she is so deeply and full blown in her Narcissism. She is the ultimate proverbial wolf in sheep’s clothing, gobbling up people, unknowingly to them.
How do and why do N’s get away with their abuses?
At least this last hit, received last night, is pulling up more pain for me and helping me to get well. It is another whack of evil, sifting me to deeper feelings of humiliation, confusion and old trauma as well as the new trauma. I am hoping that this last hit will free me even more from the bondage of self that keeps me in mild dysfunction. I actually need to thank this counselor, for she has healed me more than she knows, despite the fact that she would want me to stay ill and wounded more than anything.
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Gabben - so good to see you here again.
Your story is mind-boggling. Even as much as I have experienced, I find the stories of N abuse stunning.
I am so speechless about what she is doing and angered by (though VERY familiar with) the reaction (or non-reaction) by your parrish.
How are you holding up?
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Hi GS,
Thanks for the response. I have often read your posts, very helpful and encouraging for me to see another really working to heal the dysfunction out of themselves, as I have been. It is the straight and narrow path but so hard to stay on, at least for me.
One of the reasons that the N-counselor is so convinced that I am the wrong one in this is because I tried to call her on her stuff, especially her lack of empathy which is hard to see because she acts like she cares so much, it had me fooled for a very long time. She thinks very highly of herself, she thinks that she is "great" which I once heard her tell me when she was trying to understand why someone else who she worked with was having problems with her. She could not understand why anyone would have issues with her because she has such a high opinion of herself as N's do. Full blown ego in disguise so it is hard for her to imagine why I would be upset with her. The truth I have tried to present to her about herself, the mirror I tried to hold up to her hurts her EGO. It is the opposite of suffering for love which she is incapable of doing.
I used to actually practically worship her, really adored her for what seemed her non-judgmental compassion, it seemed to just ooze out of her. But as time went on in my work with her I would come to understand that her compassion was not real. This became apparent for me whenever I was in pain or memories. I had done so much original pain work in the past that I new the way out was tears, going through the layers, and having a safe other as someone to tell the stories to. I always say tears wash our eyes so we can see reality better. Also, she lacked real insight so I was able to finally realize that she herself did not have emotions or really suffer, in other words she was emotionally shallow and very fear based, not love based which eventually came out in our work together.
I'm holding up OK. The hit of her lies about me to my parish was last year. Then, yesterday, I looked at my parishes bulletin to see her book and website being promoted. It hurt like heck, as if my parish just brushed off her meanness and cruelty towards me as if it was nothing. It was so confusing. I have reached out to her several times in the last years, inviting her to meet with me in but she ignores me, probably under her pretend cover as how busy she is.
I’ve just decided to move away from my parish for good, I am in heavy grief today saying goodbye to a place that had helped in this dark world to find my way as well as it had my shelter and refuge. But in the last few years the parish has been a constant source of trauma for me. Just when I start to get strong and well another hit of confusion comes. The pain is not so much about her as it is about the frustration with the lack of justice and the wrong of people that are supposed to be fighting for truth and goodness, supposed to be shepherding people to God, not to her and her sneaking deceitful ways of fooling people into thinking that she actually has faith or love in her heart.
I just need to write this out, just need to heal it out. What is hard for me is to think about the way that others, like myself, when in pain or trying to heal, will be fooled and confused by her. They will suffer the same stuff that I suffered for along time in my work with her, her inability to really empathize. Some people, who have N FOO issues will be triggered just like I was by her, but of course she will not know what or how to handle it. I just keep hearing my God saying that in time the real truth of her will come out. I thought that her lies to my parish about me were enough for people to see her truth, but I guess people just turn a blind eye, that is why so many in this world get away with lying and hurting others, very few have the courage to do something.
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One of the reasons that the N-counselor is so convinced that I am the wrong one in this is because I tried to call her on her stuff, especially her lack of empathy which is hard to see because she acts like she cares so much, it had me fooled for a very long time.
I have seen this type of person fool so many. We as humans seem to want to believe in the good of others and so are quick to attribute good qualities to appearances. People who "appear" good: physically and tempermentally are able to sway many to be their supporters. Some of those are nothing more than conmen who use that against specific individuals and are able to sabotage their viticms by proactively subverting the reputation of the victim within a particular community and then sit back and do the "who me?" thing when the "sh8t" hits the fan from the hidden bomb the conman planted. (I am not very good at writing out my thoughts but I hope you can follow my line of thinking.) My point is people like your N therapist are successful at what they do for a number of reasons. They are able to get people to believe them because they (the N) appear to be what others admire or value. The ConNs are fantastic at reflecting back to people what they want to see of themselves. In other words, these ConNs make people feel good and that gives the ConNs even more power when it comes to destroying a victim. It is so horrendous - -the injustice of it all. The whole thing is so hidden and no one seems to listen, believe or care about what is happening, the damage being done, or the truth.
I have such compassion for what you are going through.
This became apparent for me whenever I was in pain or memories. I had done so much original pain work in the past that I new the way out was tears, going through the layers, and having a safe other as someone to tell the stories to. I always say tears wash our eyes so we can see reality better. Also, she lacked real insight so I was able to finally realize that she herself did not have emotions or really suffer, in other words she was emotionally shallow and very fear based, not love based which eventually came out in our work together.
You have touched on something that is still a mystery to me but there is a certain number of people who seem to have great insight but the world turns a deaf ear to. Many of these seem to be the the victim of Ns or personality disorders or addicts. Many also seem to be voiceless for some bizarre but fascinating reason. Unraveling this mystery might be very empowering for you and me and so many others. This may be one of the major keys to giving voice to the voiceless. I think you are touching on a very critical aspect here.
I'm holding up OK. The hit of her lies about me to my parish was last year. Then, yesterday, I looked at my parishes bulletin to see her book and website being promoted. It hurt like heck, as if my parish just brushed off her meanness and cruelty towards me as if it was nothing. It was so confusing. I have reached out to her several times in the last years, inviting her to meet with me in but she ignores me, probably under her pretend cover as how busy she is.
Here is my take on what you have written here. Remember, it is based solely on this very limited bit of information and not on your whole experience so take it with a tiny grain of salt. if it doesn't fit just throw it out. But you write that you called her on her stuff. That means that if anyone were to truly hear you her hoax would be up and her power destroyed. Because you see the truth you actually are her enemy and a danger to her. She doesn't care about truth with a capital T she only cares about her survival (as do we all). Only she sees her survival as dependant on destroying your credibility. I wager a bet that she is the child of N or other personality disordered parents. It is no wonder that she wants to destroy your credibility but the other side of this is that your parrish still gives her credibility.
Honestly, I truly feel the pain you must have felt when you saw that. I suspect it shot through you like an electrical bolt and left you stinging and numb. Why would they do that? do they think so little of you and so much of her? It must feel that way but I suspect there is something much more mundane at work here - mundane but nepharious none-the-less. It goes to the human actions that evoked the quotation, "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." I am resigned to accept that in the face of wrong or evil most humans will do nothing particularly if that evil does not have a direct and unequivocal effect on them.
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Wow GS, really helpful insights and ideas shared by you. They are very powerful for me in helping me through this; validating and affirming what my intuitions have known about her.
For so long my battle was wondering if I was the really sick one, the "hungry wolf" so to speak. I wondered if I was the N who was working to constantly pull the wool over peoples eyes. I have plenty of N traits, I can be envious, I am self-centered and I love attention in the form of praise and compliments, feels really good. But I also know that I am human and those traits are just normal human traits that we all have to wrestle with.
The problem in my work with her was that I could not be human, I could not admit to my failings with her. Oh at first I did, but then I caught on to her walls of hatred for weakness and her stone walled heart. I thought that what I was seeing in her could be me, was it me I wondered? I had done years in psychoanalysis where I became very familiar with my projection defense, able to spot when I was doing this, on the spot, as well as able to see my transference defense because I had used these defenses in therapy through the years to unbury myself from dysfunction.
Anyways, it gets confusing and that is exactly what evil, forgive the harshness of that word, but it is exactly what evil does, it confuses.
This morning I awoke with the pain of powerlessness up, the agonizing way that we feel when in the face of N abuse we are powerless to fight back, all we can do is suffer the wounds. I have found my voice and I have grieved not getting to use it thoughout most of my life. Then, I have used it but like a race horse out of the gate, wild and messy, running over with foul words, not the graceful silence in suffering that I have wanted. For the most part, my even writing here is a bit of a disappointment for me in that my goal is to be able to suffer the injustices of this world in silence, just like my Hero, Christ, with forgiving love and surrendering the desires for revenge which have hurt me more than anyone, into God’s hands.
At least this morning I can feel the stab, black stab of powerlessness, the raw hurt from this and not have to lash out. At least this morning I can just allow the pain of this to wash away the buried old feelings of powerlessness that have led me into dysfunction over and over again.
Thanks for all you wrote, I am still digesting it and working to move beyond this. I am taking the message from my parish that they just do not want me there and that she is what they want. I am moving on, letting her have it all and diminishing myself, but I know that I am never diminished in God’s eyes. My faith really saves me.
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"I suspect it shot through you like an electrical bolt and left you stinging and numb."
Yes, it was as if a hundred knives pressed into my brain all at once. It was staggering me, I started drinking because it was so excruciating and I do not drink or struggle with addiction with alcohols as I used to. I did not drink that much, but I drank wine fast and then threw up all over the place. It was almost as if my brain and body would not tolerate or digest the reality of evil; t was so painful the pain was too much for me to bear, it was as if I needed to take the initial edge off so that I could begin to wrap my brain around the evil of it, the lack of justice and as you put so well, my parish giving her credibility reinforcing her lies and feeding her ego.
Now that I have absorbed some of this I am seeing my own envy towards her, my own feelings of being nothing, unwanted, hated and perhaps worth nothing, for what have I done, I certainly have no degrees like her, no book written, no experience in healing and helping others at the level that she has. But one thing that keeps me grounded is knowing that she is incapable of genuine love, she may have all the externals in place and many fooled by them, especially the worldly minded, so that she appears the loving saint, but she cannot love and that is a truth that is unshakable for me.
Here are some validating of what you wrote and just validating for the experiences of N's:
"Pathological narcissists succeed for a time because of the extreme resonance of their personality structure. As Samuel Vaknin writes: "Narcissists appear to be unpleasantly deliberate... They are too human, or too inhuman, or too modest, or too haughty, or too loving, or too cold, or too empathic, or too strong, or too industrious, or too casual, or too enthusiastic, or too indifferent, or too courteous, or too abrasive."17 He is an enigma, at least prior to his exposure. One can't help but reason that he's either an outstanding citizen, leader, priest, court judge, teacher, etc., or he's the most morally depraved individual you are going to meet for a long while. And very few of us expect to discover such a depth of depravity in well dressed professional adults. So we naturally conclude the former. For he is careful not to show opposite extremes to one and the same person, especially if that person is someone he needs. The majority in his immediate environment will see his "too good" side only. Should anyone no longer be needed, or should one happen to become a threat to his facade, such a one is likely to get a taste of the narcissist's vindictive nature, even one who has been a close "friend" to him for a number of years -- a narcissist's loyalty is paper thin, for he is incapable of genuinely intimate friendships18. But only the targeted victim will see his vindictive nature, or a small few. He is careful to keep this side of himself from others, for it is an inconsistency that might expose him. So adept is he at this narrowly focused persecution, in fact, that any attempt by the victim to tell another will in all probability make him (the victim) appear as if he is losing his mind."Doug McManaman
"The unrepentant excuse themselves, and motivated by an unconscious desire to be excused by others (not forgiven, which implies confession and contrition), he will readily excuse the faults and failings of others, obliging them to do likewise. Hence, the current widespread approbation of tolerance as the perfection of justice. But tolerance is not necessarily a virtue, for there is a great deal that love refuses to tolerate." Doug McManaman
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I have plenty of N traits, I can be envious, I am self-centered and I love attention in the form of praise and compliments, feels really good. But I also know that I am human and those traits are just normal human traits that we all have to wrestle with.
These are not only human traits but ones that children experience and if not given into and fed as a toddler then we sort of get stuck with that unfulfilled need, sort of like getting stuck with the throttle on. If parents give the loving and attention and encouragement needed then the child can learn to provide that sustenance for themselves otherwise we get stuck in that infantile need to get it all from others because our own recognition feels utterly inadequate.
For the most part, my even writing here is a bit of a disappointment for me in that my goal is to be able to suffer the injustices of this world in silence, just like my Hero, Christ, with forgiving love and surrendering the desires for revenge which have hurt me more than anyone, into God’s hands.
At the risk of posting something that is not in line with your theology I start with the suggestion that if this doesn't fit just toss it. I find that knowing that Christ is there with me to heal those wounds it is my job to open my being to receive that. I further remind myself that he was willing to give his life because he knew that I and all the others are human and not able to give up these resentments and longing fro revenge on our own. What could be more difficult. If I get there it will only be through surrender to his perfected healing and i suspect it will be incremental.
I am taking the message from my parish that they just do not want me there and that she is what they want. I am moving on, letting her have it all and diminishing myself,
Gabben - I don't think your parish can understand that they actually made a choice between you and this N. It has to do with humanity in generals unwilliingness to see how evil some people in decent packages can be. It is that very typical "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" coice of sticking their heads in the sand. The conman, pathological liar, sociopath always wins in these circumstances - ALWAYS. I do think you have little choice but to "tolerate" (not a real choice) or to leave. But I take a LARGE issue with the last phrase that this will be "diminishing" yourself. In fact I will argue that it is exactly the opposite that it is protecting and elevating yourself. It is keeping you out of being reactive and it is acknowledging that YOU DESERVE better than what you are getting. Perhaps you can trust that this is a way for a door to close because there is a door that is open for you that is a place where you will flourish. This is not your detriment it is a painful push to make a transition that will be a great gift, a transition that you would not make if you had not experienced this wretched pain.
Yes, it was as if a hundred knives pressed into my brain all at once. It was staggering me, I started drinking because it was so excruciating and I do not drink or struggle with addiction with alcohols as I used to. I did not drink that much, but I drank wine fast and then threw up all over the place. It was almost as if my brain and body would not tolerate or digest the reality of evil; t was so painful the pain was too much for me to bear, it was as if I needed to take the initial edge off so that I could begin to wrap my brain around the evil of it, the lack of justice and as you put so well, my parish giving her credibility reinforcing her lies and feeding her ego.
I am so sorry. How horrific. You are describing a pain that goes so deep, that is qute simply unbearable - even to read. I know that pain. I have experienced it too and it is so alienating and debilitating. My heart goes out to you and I hurt with you. This is what I encourage you to think about. The physical analogy is much like having been hit by a freight train. Your psyche had been traumatized and is in shock. You must now go through a kind of hospitalization where you are in survival. Just as would be done for you in a hospital, the foremost need is nurturing and nutrition and gentle, kind care and sleep. As you gain strength in the coming days or weeks continue to care for yourself. You have been traumatized. It is just like a physical trauma. It is a psychological trauma and it can lead to PTSD so you must be gentle and kind and caring for your soul and not expect yourself to be up to par. You might well go through the stages of grief as you get stronger. Do not be surprised. Most importantly be very kind and patient and supportive of your own self. Know that you have been hit hard and recovery will not be instantaneous.
The information you shared from Vadkin and about "tolerance" are quite eye opening.
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"If parents give the loving and attention and encouragement needed then the child can learn to provide that sustenance for themselves otherwise we get stuck in that infantile need to get it all from others because our own recognition feels utterly inadequate."
Well said. Yes, it has been a journey for me to uncover my unmet love needs that had morphed into painful dysfunction as the years went by. I can tell stories of the search and hunger in me that eventually did lead me back to the real loving source of God. But healing the layers of codependency has been a constant journey for me with inches and leaps in all directions but I can see the progress forward as well. I find my heart these days really does lean on God as my source as well as I have grieved the spirits in me, or desires in me that overreached themselves so that they no longer take over my life, leading it.
"At the risk of posting something that is not in line with your theology I start with the suggestion that if this doesn't fit just toss it. I find that knowing that Christ is there with me to heal those wounds it is my job to open my being to receive that. I further remind myself that he was willing to give his life because he knew that I and all the others are human and not able to give up these resentments and longing fro revenge on our own. What could be more difficult. If I get there it will only be through surrender to his perfected healing and i suspect it will be incremental."
This makes sense. I found comfort in reading this, especially the part about Christ being our enlightened witness, and especially an empathetic one.
"I am so sorry. How horrific. You are describing a pain that goes so deep, that is qute simply unbearable - even to read. I know that pain. I have experienced it too and it is so alienating and debilitating. My heart goes out to you and I hurt with you. This is what I encourage you to think about. The physical analogy is much like having been hit by a freight train. Your psyche had been traumatized and is in shock. You must now go through a kind of hospitalization where you are in survival. Just as would be done for you in a hospital, the foremost need is nurturing and nutrition and gentle, kind care and sleep. As you gain strength in the coming days or weeks continue to care for yourself. You have been traumatized. It is just like a physical trauma. It is a psychological trauma and it can lead to PTSD so you must be gentle and kind and caring for your soul and not expect yourself to be up to par. You might well go through the stages of grief as you get stronger. Do not be surprised. Most importantly be very kind and patient and supportive of your own self. Know that you have been hit hard and recovery will not be instantaneous."
The information you shared from Vadkin and about "tolerance" are quite eye opening.
Thank you so much for your validation, understanding and compassion. It really helps. I've had to heal a lot of my trauma in the last few years alone, with exception of this board and others who have helped me outside. Compassion in trauma healing is so needed, like a soothing balm in that helps the stab in our heads in a way I cannot articulate. And thank you for the reminder to nuture myself. Today, I just baked some cookies, grapefruit cream filled! Cleaned my refridge out and drove to Marin, over the Golden Gate Bridge, which is beautiful, sunny and refreshing to get out of the city. I visited with people that was the bright spot of my day. Now I am home to rest and them go spend time in prayer at my most favorite sanctuary, a little Catholic monastery in the Height and Ashbury district of SF! I am feeling better than the other day.
I think my seeing my parish as telling me goodbye is black and white thinking on my part, I really do not have the whole picture. But I know one thing, there is so much peace and hope that comes to me from leaving that place for good, for really separating myself away and putting it behind me. I feel strong in my faith and strong with my own friendships and community to support me.
Also, I really need to heal this very deeply embedded or entrenched wound that was triggered. It is a form of masochism on my part, something I have been working on for a very long time. As I always say the way out is through and you cannot heal what you cannot feel.
Thank you ((((((GS))))))
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I know that what I need most is someone who will listen without telling me that I need to just do X, Y and Z.
I still need to be heard.
Each time I write something like that I feel validated by the very name of this forum.
As I was driving yesterday I was thinking about how hard it is to get people to hear and to understand. I was thinking about it in the context of your parish and I thought about my frequent experience of describing my mother to people I know. It does not matter if it is someone I just met or someone I and my mother have knows for decades the usual response is some form of minimization. Many people will say it is due to her age and when I give a handful examples of the same type of behavior from 40 years ago they cannot adjust their reaction. I have finally come to understand that it has something to do with the natuer of most humans. It is not the way I am made so I don't understand it but I am far too familiar with it and I have come to expect it. It does not make each and every incident less painful - actually quite the opposite - each incident actually feels more and more isolating and marks me as "other" and ever more alone.
I have a real need to "hear" as well as to be heard.
I am beyond thankful that people like you and PR will open up and share your struggles and your pain in an honest attempt to find solace and healing. It is the very writing that connects with my own journey and provides real and helpful insights to my own plight. So I thank you Gabben, more than you can imagine.
By the way - grapefruit cream filled cookies! - I have never heard of such but can just imagine how they taste on my tongue. Your day sounds delightful. So glad you are taking care of yourself.
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Gabben, hello!
Wow. You have been gone a while so the growth and seasoning really shows through in your voice.
I'm running late but wanted to just tell you two things that really jumped out at me as so very positive:
--your decision to leave the parish, and not let your life be focused in a place where there's so much opportunity to be repeatedly hurt. Knowing when to fold 'em.
--your naming and recognizing your own feelings of envy. I think that is huge.
--your recognizing your pain and feeling it, and in the same breath saying you trust it, that you will allow it to move through.
I feel hopeful for you too! And very happy to hear you are stepping forward into a future. The past is real, we still carry it...but this is like hearing you've chewed your way through an ankle bracelet.
bravo!
Hops
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It does not matter if it is someone I just met or someone I and my mother have knows for decades the usual response is some form of minimization. Many people will say it is due to her age and when I give a handful examples of the same type of behavior from 40 years ago they cannot adjust their reaction. I have finally come to understand that it has something to do with the natuer of most humans. It is not the way I am made so I don't understand it but I am far too familiar with it and I have come to expect it. It does not make each and every incident less painful - actually quite the opposite - each incident actually feels more and more isolating and marks me as "other" and ever more alone.
HI ! GS,
Minimization is a good way or word to put it. I think that the reason we, healing seekers (such as you and I), do not minimize but rather work to see things as they really were, horrific at times, may have something to do with suffering; our pain vs others who have yet to really embrace their pain. Minimization is a defense, they do not want to hear because our words and wounds touch their wounds which they may not be ready to face or fully feel. I can relate to just thinking back to when I was still in denial of my own pains and how even hearing a baby cry was hard on me, "get that kid out of here!" I would think to myself. Now, when I hear a baby crying, after having to become my wounded baby/child again in order to heal the voicelessness that I never fully experienced as a child, I want to reach for the babies and lightly sooth and comfort them. I call that progress.
A thought that came to me is that perhaps the reason it felt isolating is because there are very few like you and myself that take the risk to be wounded; struggling, which most people do not want to even been seen as struggling which sometimes means having to face our ugly in order to heal to become whole again.
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--your decision to leave the parish, and not let your life be focused in a place where there's so much opportunity to be repeatedly hurt. Knowing when to fold 'em.
--your naming and recognizing your own feelings of envy. I think that is huge.
--your recognizing your pain and feeling it, and in the same breath saying you trust it, that you will allow it to move through.
Thank you Hops! I appreciate your encouragement in the form of showing me my progress. It really feels good to make it over some of those huge hurdles of internal voices of shame to face myself; it was sort of like having to walk through my own internal smoldering smelly walls, in other words, the toxic waste land of my own soul.
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Hi,
I've read first post, but not whole thread, sorry. Ths sounds important, and I so ID. I had an N therapist and went through similar, although yours sounds way beyond the pale.
First most important thing would be to report her, but without getting involved in any wrangling over it. I feel we have a duty to report really dangerous practitioners, of the sort you describe here.
For me the trouble was not her behaviour, buy my attraction back to her, and longing because, as you say, it feels like a taste of the original and in that sense could be healing. But for me it wasnt healing it was a repeat. I needed the proper access to healing, it was my own character defects, or issues that kept me attracted to N types, and its at that specific deptth of my disorder I needed to work.
Wishing you the best for this recovery.
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Hi GS,
This weekend I thought more about your post on minimization. Without reading up on anything what came to me was that minimization, in addition to a defense is also a form of lack of empathy. I am guilty of this recently. I have a friend who is transgender, a women in a man's body. Not having walked in her shoes I could not understand her insides, her reality. When I looked at her I still saw man but in her heart and mind she was fully a woman and always had been. My minimization once was to refer to her as a "guy." This hurt her deeply.
Sometimes it is hard to understand others pain and in that I minimize as well as have had my pain minimized. Part of what is bringing this up for me today is the minimization I experienced as a child when four and dropped off at my aunt and uncles house who were complete strangers to me, and being told that it was "only for one year." I was four and although I did not know what a year was I knew something was very wrong, but my tears and pain were minimized.
I think it also had to do with guilt on my grandma's part when she saw my tears and pain, for it was her who dropped me off.
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Hi,
I've read first post, but not whole thread, sorry. Ths sounds important, and I so ID. I had an N therapist and went through similar, although yours sounds way beyond the pale.
First most important thing would be to report her, but without getting involved in any wrangling over it. I feel we have a duty to report really dangerous practitioners, of the sort you describe here.
For me the trouble was not her behaviour, buy my attraction back to her, and longing because, as you say, it feels like a taste of the original and in that sense could be healing. But for me it wasnt healing it was a repeat. I needed the proper access to healing, it was my own character defects, or issues that kept me attracted to N types, and its at that specific deptth of my disorder I needed to work.
Wishing you the best for this recovery.
Hi River,
I reported her a long time ago, just as you said. I was told to write out my story with her and send it to the Board of Behavioral Science. I did this, but her response was that we were doing spiritual direction and not therapy, which I do believe now to be true but the principals and lines she crossed where still damaging to me. I let it go, just feeling good to be able to voice out my pain as well as know that at least it is on record for if and when someone else gets hurt in her care and files a complaint. I really struggled in filing it because I knew the backlash would be severe with her, it was more a leap of faith than anything for at the time I was just wanting to move on from her.
I’m not in regret of the pain that I have gone through with her for it has served to really heal me. I am frustrated with the fact of her disorder and lies. But I am powerless to do anything but let go again, and really lower my expectations of her ever coming to honesty or real love. N’s and P’s need to win, it is what they are all about, they do not play by the rules and power is their goal. They never stop until they get what they want. I am stopping, I just want peace and to be free of her and the realm that she spoils with her lies and evil.
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l
Minimization is a defense,
Yes - very good point.
I call that progress.
me too - great progress.
Gabben - your second post about minimization is stunning. Very difficult to take in. Just reading those few short lines has my chest contracting. I do see your point but my being aches and is screaming in pain for that 4 year old you. Incomprehensible. Quite overwhelming.
I can imagine that if I were your grandmother I would have to minimize in order to live with myself.
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Hi GS,
Thanks again for compassion and heartfelt empathy, it shines through and helps affirm the pain of the memory no doubt up from this last round of sifting.
I'm 43. When I was 28 I had my first real trigger of the abandonment memories which almost seemed to just explode into my awareness. It happend, the memories coming up, by dating someone who I was super attracted to but who dumped me. Up until that point in my life I had never been in love nor allowed anyone who I could love into my heart. But I did with this guy. When I was dumped I was gutted and incapacitated, unable to even move physically for one week; I vomited for the first day and had to take cold showers for a couple of days to cool my burning flesh off. Knowing that my response to this guys dumping me was way over exaggerated I immediately sought out therapy, finding a very good one who was capable of therapeutic love for me and really wanted to see me heal. I worked with him, sometimes intensively, for over 5 years.
Over the years the pains of my abandonment have come up in layer after layer with dimensions and folds, twists and turns, still a deeply hardwired melt of shame and fear into my brain and heart thus coloring my world for most of my life and seeping out either in dysfunction or seeping out in painful memories which I had to embrace, the way out being through.
Just when I thought that I had put the trauma behind me a new old untold story emerges. This weekend it was the story of sorrow I felt as a child in watching other children receive love from their parents while I was in the desert of orphanhood. It locked down in me deep envious feelings/sorrow at the good of others. I have loved the good of others and embrace the good of others; I am not a envious person. But what I think what caused my aunt and uncles children and them to react to my pain with a finger point at me of shame at my envy/sorrow was that when others envy it threatens. The envy of others feels threatening to the degree that we feel insecure. Perhaps my sorrow at others good stirs in them an intuition of threat that I might reach for the sweet food they posess, their parents love, taking it away from them or wrecking it in some way. I am sure that my cousins felt threatened by my sister and I being there, the wounded suffering children that suddenly just showed up taking a piece of the pie out of the pan of their parents love.
The story of untold drama's resurface for a real telling. This was a story that I never could voice as a little girl. At four years old how would I find the words to say, "I want what you have, I want love, the sweet wonder of being the apple of someone's eyes like you, my cousins, have in your parents love!" I want to be someone special to someone, my parents, and I am resentful and sad that I cannot have what I want as well as I have to sit and stare at it all day long, I have to face or see your good as I go starving!!"
It evokes the pain, or sorrow at the good fortune of others is that when I was a child, abandoned at my aunt and uncles house who had four small kids of their own, I felt envious of my cousins getting to have real parents, and, then, instead of having the sorrow that was under my envy addressed in compassion, (for my envy was just a mask of my complicated grief and loss), my aunt and uncle as well as the cousins would push me away or make me ashamed for being envious or unhappy at their good.
The interesting discovery for me in this story is that I was happy at their good, I felt it but it still was a reminder of the deep loss of my good which was just wanting some empathy and compassion so as to get it out from being stuck in so that I could open my heart to the good.
Talk about minimizing, talk about a lack of empathy. They were being fed and I was starved but instead of acknowledging the obvious, at least to me, of my loss they acknowledged what I had already felt about myself, that I was bad and wrong they just rubbed it in my face more. It is hard to articulate but it was simply being stoned for feeling sorrow for not having a mom, a brush off and minimization of my loss. I think that people can be really selfish and shallow, just as I had been once.
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I reported her a long time ago, just as you said. I was told to write out my story with her and send it to the Board of Behavioral Science. I did this, but her response was that we were doing spiritual direction and not therapy, which I do believe now to be true but the principals and lines she crossed where still damaging to me. I let it go, just feeling good to be able to voice out my pain as well as know that at least it is on record for if and when someone else gets hurt in her care and files a complaint.
........... I think you couldnt have done better, you did what you could and got ouit of the way, and what you could was to leave it on record, and it will then potentiate others if they complain. Good going Gabben.
Just reading your post about envy, its so good that you share that too, as its such an unfashionalbe emotion to have, so many people will just try to correct you if you have the courage to share that particular feeling. Not here perhaps, but in many places.
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River,
I like how you put that, speaking so openly about envy is not "fashionable." I guess I do not think so much about what is fashionable as much as I used to. I no longer see my image as something to grapple with in order to get results. In other words my face has died quite a bit, I live more from my heart. if envy is in my heart than I am going to face it rather than try to efface it with denial or pride.
There is an antedote to every problem. Pride, greed, envy, etc, are the things we all struggle with, the problems. In facing them I am only serving to free myself from their grip on my life. Pride is voice, envy is a voice, greed is a voice, they all speak to us. Pride likes to tell me that I am well and perfect and need no longer look or face myself. Greed tells me that I need things I do not need and envy speaks a voice of sorrow at what I see others have that I do not. They are the roots of my dysfunction and partly the road maps to getting out of the jungle or swamp of dysfunction.
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In other words my face has died quite a bit, I live more from my heart. if envy is in my heart than I am going to face it rather than try to efface it with denial or pride.
There is an antedote to every problem. Pride, greed, envy, etc, are the things we all struggle with, the problems. In facing them I am only serving to free myself from their grip on my life. Pride is voice, envy is a voice, greed is a voice, they all speak to us. Pride likes to tell me that I am well and perfect and need no longer look or face myself. Greed tells me that I need things I do not need and envy speaks a voice of sorrow at what I see others have that I do not. They are the roots of my dysfunction and partly the road maps to getting out of the jungle or swamp of dysfunction.
hmm! I want to say something, but you said it all here. ! : )
Just one thing though, when working back to look at your own issues, or defectts, I imagine you went through a stage of acknowledging the part others played in what happened, I mean with Ns its often important to get clear about it~ ? I mean at the same time as not dwelling on the victim position?
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River,
I hope I address your question here. I think the idea is that we all have N traits, flaws defects etc. What is interesting for me about this N is that for so long I really thought that she was perfect. Once I asked her in proud amazement of her if when she went to confession she ever had to confess anything because as I told her she seemed to be perfect, nothing coming out of her mouth that was ever unloving and she did not have any addictions or especially anger. As time went on in our relationship I did start to notice fear was a big issue for her, in that was one of the first red flags, being a woman of faith I found her at times to get lost in obsessive worrying. But still I would rationalize this red flags away by justifying her in that she was just a super caring person or she would not worry so much. There is a difference between worry and love. Love does not worry.
Eventually, as time went on and more re flags revealed her not to be the person she pretended to be, it got hard, and still is, to sort through what was my stuff and
what was hers. But that is telling about me to me, that I would even take the time to be that integrible and own my own dirt so to speak. That I would even question myself so whole heartedly in wonder if I was the one who was really wrong. N's sense something is wrong, but they are certain that they are great or just too darn super wonderful ( this idea driven by their false image) to be the one in the wrong, therefore they just point the finger back at the thier victims. It is the difference between P's and N's. P's know what they are doing, they are not hiding it from themselves or believing their own lies, they know they are without love and concious but N's are so in love with their image and so fixated on their face and feeding that face they cannot see what is in their heart, their true motives.
I have spent much time learning who I really am, flaws and all. I also do not malign people, back-stab viciously as this woman has. I struggle viscously with forgiveness of her as well as hatred of her for so long. I have let it go and then another layer comes up, which is usually about my own childhood unfinished business more than her. She has just been the tool that God has used to sift me so to speak.
If and when we ever meet again, I would first apologize to her for objectifying her, saying anything about her in return to others, my own slander; in effect I would try to help her in seeing that I too am human and struggle with all the human weakness in hope that it might make it easier for her to face herself.
But until then I just prayer for her which continues to wash away the poison of resentment and old hurt that I took rather than her. It works it really does.
The thing that remains is my frustration in knowing and seeing her continue to lead others astray in ways that are so subtle but very hurtful as I once experienced with her. I know that I am not alone in this. But I have done all that I can so I am free in terms of it not being my responsibility anymore. Bless her I say everyday, about ten times, over and over again until it finally sinks into my bones.
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The whole issue of jealousy is one I have been thinking about quite determinedly.
I have been aware for fa few years that I was acting out of a profound sense of bitterness and jealousy.
Recently, as recently as yesterday afternoon in fact, I was digging underneath that jealousy and seeing that
it has always been connected to others receiving what I longed for (never meaning material things).
As a child, the things (again not so much material as privileges and opportunities or connections) I longed for were denied me for two reasons repeatedly. Those reasons were that I was a girl and that I was too young. Of course the former was not something that would ever be rectified except in a back door kind of way and the second was a goal that changed as I aged - ever greater than what ever age I happened to be - this is until I aged out (of parental home.)
Both of those conditions were established because I was the youngest and the only daughter.
They were quite simply created to keep me out.
Not at all unlike rules that were designed to keep people of color out - only these rules were quite capriciously evoked and kept by my own parents - mother and father - against a being whom they chose to create and give life to.
When I write "rectified in a back door kind of way" I mean that many doors that were closed to me because I was female were later opened to many. I quite honestly still felt deeply repressed simmer resentment over this because my parents made sure that such doors would never be opened for me. I can remember as a very young child expressing an interest in becoming a doctor and my mother reacted with derision. I mentioned to her (I very clearly remember doing so at the age of 6) that our preacher's daughter (only offspring) was a doctor and she recoiled with disgust remarking with such derision that she was not married and never would marry. Little could I know that no matter what I tried to do academically or professionally my parents would stand in my way and have reasons to oppose. They quite simply opposed SUCCESS for me. Much like the Goethel in Tangled. (But at least Goethel was a kidnapper of Rapunzel who never had Rapunzel's best will at heart. Society expects parents to have a child's best interest at heart
So back to your post and some of your points about pride, envy and greed. As I was looking at envy what I saw was a jealousy but it was the product of not having what I NEEDED not what I WANTED. I understand this because recently I heard someone say that her father always told her that he may not have given her everything she wanted but he did give her everything she needed. (We usually think of these things in terms of material objects but I am speaking of them as emotional, psychological abstract "things" rather than tangible, material items.) Well much of what I was/am jealous of was what I NEEDED rather than what I wanted. And I think some of that applies to greed as well for me.
I am so thankful for your posting and this thread. I find that I get so much more understanding when I am in dialogue with another. You and PR post threads that give me so much to process and help me beyond words to describe. pardon me if my post intrudes on your work. I hope you will not let it divert your own train of thought - GS
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lead others astray in ways that are so subtle but very hurtful as I once experienced with her. I know that I am not alone in this.
Yes, thats the one isnt it. But then that is happenning in a myriad of different ways everywhere theres an N. And there is many. Its cunning, baffling, powerful, and it always amazed me how I can be affected internally and once triggered, I want more of it her/ him. So I do know I have my own resonance with this problem, or did have. I guess we can only do the best we can to sort out our part from the other.
Only I'd question making amends as you describe, I fear it may push her further into her position. She wouldnt get your example, because she's not looking for an example, maybe theres another way/??
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"cunning, baffling, powerful"
Them 12 step program words!! That is great! Yes, it is cunning baffling and powerful.
Making amends to her, if you are at all familiar with the 12 step program, is not about her, really. It is about making an amends to God, cleaning up our side of the street and our side only. It is partly about relinquishing control of outcomes, putting them in God's hands as we learn to walk in the ways of humility. I really have back lashed at times in my frustration, not so much to hurt back but just pure frustration in wanting to get her wrong right. Loving the spiritual life myself I have had to pay the price for grace, costly grace comes by surrender of self to the great unknown of hope, good and love. Those would be my motives for apology which I have already given her an apology, writing her a letter back almost a couple of years ago and humbling myself. And, you are correct, it did push her more into hating me and, at the sometime reinforcing her opinion of herself. But what happened for me was rest and peace, the rest and clean of conscious we feel when we really have attempted to amend a wrong.
She is great at twisting spirituality to her advantage such as making me out to be the abuser because I will not forgive, etc.. But it is not so much unforgivingness as much as it is unwillingness to tolerate her deception, especially because I know how damaging it is under the surface. I have other issues in this for me that are toxic that I am trying my harderst to work through to get out from under. It takes time to heal, it just takes time.
For so long I wanted to see something happen, but instead of her getting corrections she gets pity, favor and more power. But trust that is part of God's plan, for He knows what He is doing. I am just to take care of my relationship with Him.
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Gabben, Its funny, I was a little naughty there, I used the fellowship language as a way of communicating something that I felt I shouldnt quite aks openly. Yup, Im well familiar with this approach, been in the fellowships for years, and through the steps on these issues, so Im interested in your experiences.
I also made a step 9 amends, to my mum, but not to subsequent Ns in my life. Because I don think I actually did anything that harmed them. As I see it my amends have to be to the universe, which is similar to what you're saying re amends to God. So Ive been doing my best to do a 'living amends', do you use that term too?
Would love to connect with you re all this.
river
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Hi River,
Living amends are the most difficult. Some of these amends are the ones were we make a commitment to pray for those who have hurt us until all the anger and bitterness has gone and we can imagine loving them exactly as they are and right where they need to be. I am learning this does not mean that I have to put myself in their path, as I have recently to the N-counselor, but it does mean that I am willing to let go of all my poison, resentment, that I intended for them to take.
The healing of pain from an N is hard because they want to dominate and make us nothing, put us out of their lives, especially if we have been a threat. They will go to great lengths to do this, lies and all. But for me it is a what I call a perfect cross, for in allowing myself to belittled, small and nothing I put down my hungry spirits; sort of like a death of my defenses that at one time served to help me survive, but now serve only to keep me in bondage to self, co-dependency or dysfunction.
The pain feels like a stab and a burn of your flesh as you hear impulses to fight, imaging conversations you would want to have with them and all the things you would want to say in meanness and unforgivness. I went this cold outspoken approach with the N, it only served to hurt me more and it was also used against me to make me look like the abuser. Lesson learned. Now I go the opposite way, suffering the pain, sinking into the wounds and praying for her, graces galore. It really works. It is like the beatitude blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. What I get in return from putting down my desires, self, is peace, freedom as well as a more pliable willing sprit for the good of life, I am more free to move, not allowing others to dominate me.
Yes, I agree I was probably not a good idea to contact the N as I did in the most heartfelt spirit of love. It feeds her ego and will be used against me as well as my pure goodness will be taken once again by her as a threat. It will serve to further false accusations she has made about me. But I am willing to pay that price and risk for the peace that came to me and the outreach of pure love that I extended. It felt really good and freeing. It also brought me closer to God for I could almost hear the lies and in that I felt no matter what God knows the truth and clinging to Him and His opinion is all that really matters, it frees me.
The best amends I can make to my parents is to heal completely. Any form of self abuse or unhappiness in my life is a veiled attempt to continue to punish them for the wrongs of my childhood. What I can do best for my parents is over come depression, anxiety and dysfunction to be the love to this world despite that it was not given to me.
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Only thing worrying me, Gabben, is your thinking of her 10 times a day.
I also, in every relationship in my life with an N, usually find myself spending way too much of my precious life time and energy thinking about them.
It is an obsession. I know when that pattern surfaces for me (like it does often about my Nboss), it's harming me.
I am not becoming whole as long as I am focused on the eNemy. But when I distance myself (as you are by leaving the parish) and have positives and "news" that literally fill my time and wear me out...
I get better.
I actually think I need to "keep busy" to recover from an N.
(A current dog-sitting job for an adorable but ungovernable pack of four is helping me with that this week!)
Hops
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Im not sure if I meant it wasnt good. The amends seems to have worked for you.
For me to make amends to my N partner would have just increased the dynamic where I took responsibilty that he didnt take. I did meet him accidentally in the park, we sat down for 15 mind together, I said he was an abuser, and had participated, and for that I am responsible, but that he was still responsible for the part he played.
The conversation was brief, direct and to the point, it wasnt blameful, it just stated the facts. Facing the facts was my way of making amends to the universe as it was more honest.
My issue is not the Ns any more though, Ns are only part of the equasion from where I stand. Im heavily wieghed down by an unhealthy institution, where its subtle but hidden dynamic.... for another post i guess.
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Only thing worrying me, Gabben, is your thinking of her 10 times a day.
Hops
Actually, until I showed up here on this board, for the first time in over a year, I have not thought about her very much. I had for the most part moved on, time and time again, putting her out of my mind and heart. But then, as I said in my first post, she shows back up in my life by my hearing about her or reading about her. As I said it triggers old unfinished business so I work through the pain, rather than deny it, until it subsides and she does not rent space in my head.
Another way to look at it is if God puts someone under your skin it is His way of saying pray for them until they no longer are lingering in your thoughts. Until when you do think of them you find no bitterness or desires to hurt back.
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I had been very hurt by this woman; she was a trusted professional, a counselor who I bared my soul with who betrayed my trust and who for over three years has hated me and wanted me socially dead in the circle of my faith, or parish and old ministry work.
When all this first started, back in August of 2007, I was slandered to my spiritual director (as I wrote about in my story). I figured that was it (at the time I did not have any real info on N’s) I moved on but it took about 3 months and filing the claim with the board of science was very helpful in healing me as well as helping me move on. But then her attacks would come one by one about every 3 or 4 months over the next year as well and each time it was getting worse. Just when I was free or moved past her, thinking blinding and naively, that it was over another hit would come; this had increased unconscious terror and feelings of powerlessness because she is so good at fooling people know one would believe me. The worst hit was her last year telling my parish and fabricating photos of me with a dog.
After about 2 years of this I started to live on edge, like a person who lives in terrorist regions; not ever even realizing that her covert abuse and aggression had triggered and produced strong feelings of fear and hatred in me which I have worked through, layer after layer.
I know that people got sick of hearing about this, that is partly because it is easy to blame the torn, battered, losing it, falling apart victim stuff who has been pushed over the edge. Anyone growing up with a real N parent understands this. At some point we lose it, totally lose all perspective. I think it is part of the N’s strategy, they want us to look like we are losing it, they want us to look like the crazy person.
A few years ago, when this started I moved on so many times, but wrote about her in terms of using her as a way to uncover my hidden wounds by my N mom.
Part of why I went on and on about it was the pain and victimization. Never before in my life as an adult had I experienced anything like this on the social adult level, it just kept getting worse and worse, her slander and lies. I keep trying to get away, kept trying to put it behind me but in my desire to not slander or fight back but with forgiveness and love, which I failed or fell in carrying this cross, I worked HARD to keep silent. But my silence only furthered the pain. Eventually, it exploded and I needed to voice the pain of what it was like to deal with REAL N and the fallout as well as triggers of pain it caused me.
Trust me Hops, I have literally HATED myself for the recycle of voicing this drama over and over again. But I also saw that if I did not it exploded in me. It is like being raped not once but about 10 times over a period of 3 years. Anyone would be a mess and need to talk about it constantly until they were finally moved past.
I’m having friends over for dinner tonight, and until I read your post she was not even renting space in me. Guess I am going to have to pray another Rosary for her again.
Thanks,
Lise
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Im not sure if I meant it wasnt good. The amends seems to have worked for you.
For me to make amends to my N partner would have just increased the dynamic where I took responsibilty that he didnt take. I did meet him accidentally in the park, we sat down for 15 mind together, I said he was an abuser, and had participated, and for that I am responsible, but that he was still responsible for the part he played.
The conversation was brief, direct and to the point, it wasnt blameful, it just stated the facts. Facing the facts was my way of making amends to the universe as it was more honest.
My issue is not the Ns any more though, Ns are only part of the equasion from where I stand. Im heavily wieghed down by an unhealthy institution, where its subtle but hidden dynamic.... for another post i guess.
I'm going to respond to your post but I have a busy day and may not get back here. I sent GS and email telling her I was going to leave the board because I feel better and need to move on again from the drama with the counselor, but my conversation with you has kept me here.
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I'm not judging you, Lise, truly...
When my brother slandered and attacked me I literally could not think of anything else.
I was shuddering with PTSD, I think, and just as you describe, it was wave after wave.
Every encounter (or, in my case, forced communication due to the legal conflict) was a trigger for just the same kind of voicing.
When I say it worries me, that's not a criticiam...I just meant it straightforwardly.
You are right. When there is pain a wound has to be emptied and cleansed.
And it makes a lot of sense that for you this experience echoed the original wounds from your Nmother.
I'm glad this voicing, here or anywhere, has been part of the healing process for you.
hugs
Hops
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Hi Hops,
I take your worry as coming from a caring friend who has to stand back and watch someone writhing in pain. Thank you. But it did hit a nerve in me, obviously. However, it was healing for me to have to face the part of me that has hated myself for the not so graceful way and person I became in the face of a long, slow murder of what I loved in this world such as my ministry work, parish, friends, self respect and dignity, reputation (what little I had) and at times my sanity and time spent on healing the traumas.
The other day I realized, once again, that she has given me more than she took. The abuse as you so well put "echoed" my mom which allowed for the cleansing and healing of my soul of so much toxic stuffed feelings and experience, making me lighter and more free than ever before. I grew in wisdom more in the last few years than my entire life. I grew softer and more gentle, especially after coming to terms with my dark rage and hatred which sometimes spilled out of my toxic tongue and sometimes spilled out in tender tears. But the best of what she gave me is still yet to come.
I am still learning that part of why I was so affected by her was because her and I are similar. She craves the world of praise, esteem, attention and most especially, N's favorites food, pure admiration. I too have loved these worldly blessings, and wrestled with them, especially because I was not fed enough love as a child. But slowly I have filled in my huge vaccum holes, the emptiness from never receiving love by grieving the holes small and praying them closed.
The most important lesson, I realized, in my own battle of envy was that I was envious of her worldly gains. But then I realized that the worldly gains would cut me off from true love and true growth. My envy once again served a good purpose in helping me see what is most important is not what I gain and take in but what I give and let go of.
Peace and hugs you to Hops.
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Hope you come back Gabgen, it has been a valuable thread for me. Its such a sensitive area, talking about this.
An issue I have is getting intrusive thoughts. Im sure its from N damage along the way, but now I get it just if someone doesnt like me. theres someone in my training group, and I've been getting her face in my mind there to prove Im crap and shes got everything right etc. Its mad. She's not even that bad, she just doensnt like me and I know it.
Ive been thinking about the amends bit. What Im settling for is that for me the amends is to 'do the right thing' regardless of how difficult. Ie aim to do the right thing in the universe, to seek God's will. But that's really hard sometimes. I dont know if I should be doing the training Im doing, Im half way through. But thats another subject. Hope you come back. But not if you're better off outta here for a while.
river.
ps, whilst I was writing this, you were writing previous post.
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Hi River,
Yes, amends are hard but the more you make them the easier they get. Amends are sort of like our discovery of drinking. When I made my real first amends I had no idea how I was going to feel afterwards, the drink of peace that came over me, propelling me to want to keep cleaning up my past. My ego got smaller as my courage got bigger. Sometimes you just have to take the bit and pull yourself to it, as the BB says.
I can understand about the introjections of people not liking us, that stuff hurts. For a long time I did not want to face the N, not so much because I could not face myself but because she looked at me with such a convinced look of pity and shame, as if I was just so beyond help, someone to be really pitied, it was part justification for her shunning of me. It was painful for me because she was so held up in my faith community and, at the time I was in my wounds from childhood where I did not get enough loving mirroring that children need in order to develop a healthy self image and sense of self worth. It was a very painful bath of confusion for me on top of so much more going on in my life. No wants to be looked at with so much contempt and despise, correct? Especially from a counselor. Her looking at me with either contempt, as I had seen her do too many times in our work together, or her looking at me like I was super mentally ill was like a thorn pressing in on a thorn in my side. At this time I was super vulnerable as I was trying to work the old thorn of trauma out, the lack of love and mirroring for the wounds are the place of healing.
As time went on I would eventually try to imagine what it would be like to face her, I would, like you say, get an introjection of her look of disgust and pity towards me and it would turn my stomach. But I have actually used that introjection to as a measuring stick to my healing. As I have worked to embrace my wounded parts of myself, the parts of self that I once hated that she was reflecting back at me, I now can imagine being around her and having her look at me with the look of fear/contempt/pity as I call it and I would be barely unchanged.
Mother Teresa says that if we are truly humble then we will be unchanged by neither praise nor discouragement. This for me means getting to know myself and accept all of me that was hidden in the dark of my mind and soul, the parts of self which included my shadow as well as my own N traits. Today I am growing closer to trust of myself, acceptance of my good bad and ugly. Humility is about seeing things as they are, seeing ourselves as we are. If you read the AA literature and any real spiritual writings you will find that the most important ingredient for growth is humility or honestly, rigorous honesty. But we need safe others, who will not judge us in order to face ourselves.
Thinking about this sort of blows me away because the N counselor seems beyond grace in that no matter how many mirrors of truth were held up to her she is alway convinced that everyone else is in the wrong. Therefore her seeing me as beyond help is actually her ultimate projection of the part of her that is beyond seeing the truth about herself. Through her I learned what the word reprobate soul means, someone who God has tried to reach out to save so many times but after awhile God, in His non-forceful way of giving us a free will, allows souls to just be left to the mind they have, to believe their own lies. However, I continue to prayer for her, really prayer for her in my spirit of love and how I would imagine God would want me to care for her, the way that He does. It is working; I am feeling better but most importantly I am changing.
You might ask yourself what this woman who you think does not like you is bringing up for you. She is getting under you skin for a reason, God is in working in this for you as He does every moment of our lives. We, who have grown up in N homes, have our own N wounds to heal.
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Hi River,
This morning I awoke with the a few painful introjections of some people I know who have stong dislike or judgements of me. I was reminded of the parables or sayings of the pearl such as "pearl's of wisdom."
The images of others criticisms of me are like grains of sand under my skin, afflicting irritants. But I know that they are also messengers from God in that they will teach me something if I open myself and stay honest. I can turn these irritants into pearls of wisdom, shine.
In my pain I realized that what irritates me is criticism from others, especially others looks. I've worked on this much, but here it is again, up for me so I guess God is calling me to work on it MORE.
In addition to not getting loving affirming mirrors as a child I also received a lot of criticism from my mom. I think that part of the reason I am so easily afflicted by others eyes or judgements is because of the shaky foundation, my inner child so to speak, who still does not know who she is or does not carry a healthy realistic self-image.
I'm doing some reading and praying today to get more insight and understanding of this about myself so I do not give my power away, as our BB says when we allow others to dominate us.
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I also realize that I need to embrace the child in me who is simply just wounded, fully allow her to feel the hole in her, the space in her that was meant for a healthy self and grieve never having had a healthy self image as I work to build trust with myself. Others will always be there to criticize me and judge me, so my task is to work for freedom and even love as my response. As I said above it is about facing and owning something in me as well as just simply embracing my cross, suffering, which helps to diminish my defects of character, my defenses so that I can see more clearly.
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I can understand about the introjections of people not liking us, that stuff hurts. For a long time I did not want to face the N, not so much because I could not face myself but because she looked at me with such a convinced look of pity and shame, as if I was just so beyond help, someone to be really pitied, it was part justification for her shunning of me. It was painful for me because she was so held up in my faith community
Isnt that just like it goes. Look good on the outside, well respected in community, and projecting all thier disowned shame into/ onto someone, a designated person. Its kind of funny when you're not affected, but lethal when you are. And its endlessly adaptable and clever.
like I was super mentally ill was like a thorn pressing in on a thorn in my side. At this time I was super vulnerable as I was trying to work the old thorn of trauma out, the lack of love and mirroring for the wo
This kind of stuff is hard to find words adequate for huh? the only thing I've read that comes anywhere close is Scott-Peck 'the lie within the lie'.
You might ask yourself what this woman who you think does not like you is bringing up for you.
What I made of this one is this: How I have come to understand what has happened to me is that I have a disorder which is commonly a result, or response to the influence of an N in developmental years. A syptom of this disorde is being sort of 'invadable' mentally. So I just sort of laughed at the absurdity of having this woman in my mind when she shouldnt be. In this case it was more an OCD thing than a real 'something to learn' type thing, except it was about dealing with intrusive thoughts, which I have learnt you have to give them very little respect.
I've been working with a new fellowship specifically oriented around this disorder. And what you have said about ammends is of interest to me. Thinking in terms of aiming at the highest good in any given situation, but either way, it gets one out of and above that drivenness, and anxiety etc, but I get sucked under so so much of the time. And sometimes I'm triggered to that its like a mental change, altered reality, and I cant control the getting out of it. Im so easily feel shame. Then theres a lot to be improved in my life, but I have to do it because its genuine, not because of running from shame that I feel