Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sKePTiKal on June 17, 2011, 10:14:03 AM
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I've had one of those full-circle realizations... the kind where you wonder how in the world you missed it, it was so plain and obvious.
About 10 years ago, I had an abcessed tooth. The infection was really pretty bad, because I kept trying to treat the pain with OTC stuff, and hoping it would just go away. Of course, pain relief is a need, right? And I was programmed specifically to not seek out having my needs met... not asking for help. Part of the reason for the abcess in the first place, is because I was trained to believe that taking care of my teeth was "optional" -- those kinds of self-care habits were alien to my mom; we didn't need them; they didn't apply to us... that was for those other, uppity people who didn't realize the futility of taking care of oneself... we're all gonna die anyway. And of course, one wasn't allowed to whine about the pain either... it was always my own fault... and later, that evolved into the myth that I have a high threshold for pain.
This week, I bit down and heard/felt a snap and sharp stab of pain around one of my crowns. But as long as I didn't bite down on it, it didn't really hurt - for awhile. Then, it started to ache and throb. I took excedrin and slept OK. Same the next day and didn't really eat and worked outside... no pain until the evening. I barely slept, the pain took over all my senses and thought-processes weren't really possible with the constant jarring static of all the pain - and luckily I got into the dentist the same day. Got another root canal scheduled and prescriptions; it'll be OK. After the first one, I knew not to wait too long... but that trained instinct to ignore and avoid dealing with it was responsible for the suffering that I did put myself through.
In between these two occurances, I did several years of therapy... learned tai chi and chi gong... joined the board... and went through all the emotional pain that was never acknowledged, hardly addressed, and even blocked from my memory for my whole life, as it stands so far. I learned about how my psychosomatic symptoms were a silent "asking" for relief from emotional pain. And lord knows, I've processed that pain ad infinitum here and in journals over those years. And many things got better; changed; I let some things go... and there are more on that list... but the unassailable thing; the mysterious bit that I couldn't EVER break into, break apart, figure out how it worked... was my tendency to lack of self-care and even bad physical habits. I had gone back for my second round of therapy with the specific goal of quitting smoking - and ended up dealing with Twiggy and her story instead. My T had said that I would quit - eventually. It would all come together at some point and make sense; be clear; almost resolve itself. And she couldn't or wouldn't explain more specifically how that would occur, even when I asked point blank.
About a year ago - I had a dream of my T and I told her I wanted to "finish" now. I wrote in my journal "Sometimes, I just need to HEAR myself". It was dated July. And y'all know about my recent close encounter with my FOO - which, after all the overlays of emotions are stripped away (all the dancing around, not wanting to admit or say, avoiding) - was painful for me.
I am convinced we need to study the mind-body connection from the psychological/emotional perspective. I have had so many glimpses, breakthroughs, and positive benefits from applying the knowledge of the one to the other... and this most recent one is about pain. I know from first-hand experience, now, that my physical habits, my self-care habits (that could've been changed at any point in my adult life) are all related to the emotional pain I experience(d) in dealing with my FOO... and the "Rules" of that warped world.
I hope this will make sense enough to those who are struggling with something similar, that they can take it and use it for their own healing. This pain in my jaw wasn't limited to that area of my body; before the antibiotics kicked in I was having all kinds of muscle aches in all kinds of places; my body hurt all over. Similarly, my brain was in pain too - it didn't function well at all. I could barely drive to the dentist and back to the pharmacy; I was in a childlike state of totally focussed want/need to "make it all better". Even reading was difficult - that's how intensely I experienced the pain. Hubs kept coaxing me to just close my eyes and rest -- but I was afraid to do that. Afraid it would hurt even worse; that bad things would happen. I kept reading even after I spilled tea on my Kindle and messed up the display... figuring out a workaround; making do; I'd be all right. I cried a lot of silent tears and really missed MIL. Hubs did pretty good, though, taking care of me that day.
I guess it was while this girl was taking xrays and the tears were uncontrollable for me that I started to see in front of the me the connection between this physical and emotional pain and those poor habits that led me to this experience in the first place. I remembered a childhood dentist visit where my mom argued with the dentist over his recommendations... because even then he was concerned with the number of cavities I had. And the fillings... where my mom insisted I would be fine without novocain while he drilled... because I didn't feel pain like other people did, she told him.
Just like enough physical pain can disrupt how one's brain works... so can emotional pain, when it's constant enough without relief or coming back to equilibrium... or intense enough. And one's whole being gets tunnel vision and is desperately seeking a relief of the pain. "I wish I could just cut my head off", we say when we have a bad headache. "Just shoot me", we say when we're miserable all over. It's a lot like the saying "cutting off your nose to spite your face", isn't it? Like semi-conscious self-sabotage or self-abuse...
Twiggy had one really clear memory of smoking; it helped her brain work better... and now, I'm thinking that the nicotine or the physical repetitious act of hand to mouth of the smoking habit... helped her avoid and numb the pain she was in. The more the emotional pain that was heaped on her - without permission to talk about it; feeling like no one could stop her mom and dad wasn't going to - like she was trapped until she was legal age... the more she smoked. It "helped" distract her, numb herself, focus on intellectual things instead of feelings; ANY feelings... like being angry, nervous, embarrassed, angry, frustrated, helpless, trapped, powerless, or concentrating really hard on finding solutions... possibilities... ways out of predicaments. She never smoked because she enjoyed it; it was a necessary evil. And she had tacit acceptance of the habit from her mom, who only said: well, it could be worse. There were a lot of similar things; self-sabotage without intervent just that weird futility-based acceptance, things I shouldn't have done... things I should've...
For some time now, I've been aware that continuously mining my personal emotional pain only leads to the experience of the pain again... no great breakthrough realizations. It's truly beating one's head on a brick wall hoping for a different result. At least for me. But I hadn't taken into account the various emotions I learned to use to hide and disguise that pain as being part of the problem. I felt I had to hide these feelings even from myself, because my mom insisted she knew - could "see" on my face - what I was feeling and I was either punished, shamed or hurt for having any feelings. I knew anger was a big one; the one time I really did quit smoking - I "slipped up" and started again because of anger, powerlessness, and not being heard or having my feelings recognized.
I got that far and got stuck, working out how my inner process worked. The next step is that feeling of being so desperate for relief that one would do ANYTHING - including hurting oneself - to stop the pain. And because of lack of differentiation of emotions... because I'd been taught to associate all emotions with intense "pain" because of mom's responses ... and because we're always feeling something... I was in constant movement toward another smoke, even long after the time I should've noticed that it didn't help at all. But it did provide me with the illusion - the self-soothing delusion that I was "doing something for me"... and it confused the hell out of me when I didn't have physical withdrawal symptoms during quit attempts; only emotional pain (take away the tool used to avoid & numb the pain... and BAM, a mack truck of all it slammed into me). Nothing worked; not even drugs... and I could sense there was a really, really deep and significant attachment for me between smoking and what I'd lived through... that wouldn't budge with all the techniques recommended for physical dependence. The source was emotional; it was this lens of reacting to all emotions as if they were intense pain - for fear of the consequences that were as predictable as the sunrise, embedded in my experiential brain.
Y'all know I can get hung up on definitions and I've used definitions a lot, to understand what's "gone off the track" in myself. My latest one was the difference between "competent" and "confidence". I've read a lot about "self-efficacy" - feeling competent enough, feeling ABLE to quit smoking. Maybe that was what I needed, I initially thought. Throughout my healing process, I've noticed a gradual increase in confidence, in differentiating emotions... maintaining boundaries... connecting with other people through those boundaries... communicating better than I have in a long time... and I wonder if a combination of confidence, with some letting go (and even allowing myself to FORGET) of old pain... and emphasizing "feel good" moments... and "I'm OK" moments might not be the way to approach the whole smoking issue. In other words: shifting my focus away from the negative in my life and allowing myself to attach more securely to the positive things... until there's less room for the inevitable negative to stick around.
A lot of the CBT techniques used to quit smoking, emphasize "separation" - breaking the association between say, smoking and coffee or driving and smoking. I'm guessing what I have to do with this new realization about pain and emotions... is separate them from the ineffective (and unnecessary) "strategy" I've used for so long, to avoid dealing with the feelings and numbing them; distracting myself instead. When I'm having a good time... I don't even think about needing to smoke, if I'm in a no smoking zone... it's only when I've moved back into "personal space" that the prompt even comes to mind. The last time I flew - on the return trip I was so glad to be home again, that until my driver suggested I might like to smoke before we got on the road... it had completely slipped my mind.
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Interesting Amber, I can see your thinking and can't disagree (...) with what you're saying.
Q. did you smoke when your driver suggested it? (I would probably tend to refuse the suggestion. I think that's about control.)
There is probably more to smoking too. For me talking about smoking seems like a distraction, and, like talking/thinking about food when you want to lose weight, concentrating on it can make the defences stronger. I think what your T said - (sorry I can't see it right now) - is probably spot on. You''ll stop when it's time to stop.
You drove to the dentist with toothache that bad?
because I didn't feel pain like other people did, she told him.
Shaking my head; although I certainly believe you.
On the other hand: if we 'manage' our pain so well (so badly), it probably looks to others like we do in fact have a high threshold - whatever that means. I guess people in life-threatening occupations have a high threshold too. Or they acquire one.
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I think the "not feeling pain" - psychologically, at least - is a myth. You know, the tough guys in westerns... the bravest soldiers... these images sell the idea that it's OK to stuff and deny vulnerability, pain, in order to "to do what has to be done". Well... the problem with that is that the pain doesn't really go away; they ARE still humans after all; and so we have a high rate of PTSD in veterans. But there is another way to do what has to be done; acknowledge the fear, the pain, and "do it anyway". To feel more than one thing at once... but choose an action based on the result desired, instead of simply to "make the feeling go away or change". That requires the intellectual imput, an assessment of physical ability, probabability of success, etc.
One thing I didn't say - but it's there in the words anyway - is that I'm seeing now, that at any time after I left home - I was technically free to adopt any self-care habit or stop any bad habit I wanted to. Technically. But in actuality, I was still restricted and limited... by something; either in my feelings about myself or some image of myself in my head. Very much like a belief-based taboo.
I'm a pretty well-educated person and keep feeding my head information, looking for new ideas, things I didn't know about before. I can apply information in a practical way, pretty successfully to solve other problems. I'm not as brainy as the mythbusters on TV... but that's the kind of stuff that gets me really excited and interested. I have found the typo in computer code that "broke" how different web components worked, in lines and lines of commands. But I still can't see EXACTLY (and concisely) what that taboo/restriction was that prevented me from committing to a desired change and being able to follow through with it.
I know I'm "suggestible"... when the driver mentioned smoking, I did. Much of my T experience was working alone, with an easy self-hypnotic technique. But only smoked about half the cigarette then, since I was in a hurry to get home (there were tornados in our area a day or two before and I was anxious about that). This ability is connected to what my mom used to characterize as a "wild imagination"... I can visualize many things; my memory is largely visual - tho' the other senses are also involved at a pretty high level too... and I usually dream elaborate tableaus with all kinds of technicolor details and subtle fleeting emotions. I have tried to visualize myself as a non-smoker; it's not sustainable. It's become part of my "personality mask"; feels like a part of my identity... a non-verbal expression of: ???
Part of the issue, perhaps, is the constant flux of emotion that we experience (whether we're aware of that or not). I can feel strongly (when in physical pain) that I need to up my dental care, for instance. But once the pain disappears... so does the need and the commitment, long before a new habit is established. My Sifu used to say it takes 5000 repetitions before something becomes a "habit" and feels "normal". (Sifu being tai chi teacher.) This is part of what I know is a fact, that leads me to wonder, if separating "whether I feel like it or not" from an actionable habit that I want to lose or acquire will make a difference.
And there's a double standard involved, in what I learned about emotions, too. Because while I wasn't permitted to have my own feelings or feelings not approved by mom in that moment... SHE was all about using all kinds of physical means to numb her feelings or avoid having to deal with them, primarily junk food - she was quite holier than thou about not using alcohol, smoking or even coffee or tea. That morphed later on, into hoarding. And as long as I wasn't asking anything of her - she did leave me alone - completely alone, to make up whatever habits I wanted. There were no parental boundaries, like an enforced lights out time (I'd read til 2-3 am and get up at 7 to pack lunches for mom & bro & be to school on time), and very few limits on where I could go; with whom; and as far as curfew... many times there wasn't one.
It seems inescapable at this point... that somehow, someway... this double std. got internalized in me. "The mom in my head". And it's an auto-run program that continues it's cruel domination and manipulation of my Self "freedom"... unless I can find the one piece of code to delete, that will disable the program from functioning. It's almost as if I missed something, the first time through, when I was separating the "her" from "me" stuff.
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It's almost as if I missed something, the first time through, when I was separating the "her" from "me" stuff.
Sometimes I just need to HEAR myself. That's the big clue above.
Tentatively, I'm wondering if Twigs thought - felt - that it was impossible to get the "mom in her head" to go completely away... and that was so painful and she was so desperate... that she latched onto; attached to a thing she knew without a doubt was scientifically proven to kill people - including people she knew; one of which had helped her a lot in the worst part of the trauma she lived through. I heard some news blip about the warning label on cigarettes being changed to something as direct as "These things WILL KILL YOU."
And then I heard Twigs react in resistance: she said "Good".
SIGH... after all this time and work and revelation... rather than fighting back, talking back, drawing a boundary between her/mom... me/her... she'd rather just crawl in a hole and die a slow death from the pain instead. That is just SOOOO unlike her; and unlike me -- it doesn't make a lot of sense.
But it's exactly something BioNic Mom would say and attempt to do, and even did/does.
So I guess it's time to ask Twigs the questions: do you, in fact, need an attachment to "bioNic mom", as ill as she is? do you in fact want so much to get her attention - and acknowledgement - that you're even willing to "put on" her own darkness in hopes that she'll "wake up" and take care of you? Give that odds - how likely IS that? Remember how awful her attention to you was? Are you sure that's what you're asking for? Why on earth would you "want" something that's dangerous to you?
and finally:
well, you've had "freedom" for 40 years now, in reality (and in your Self for the last few, several years too)... so WHEN is it going to be time, to put that freedom to good use? What's the WORST that could happen?
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Amber, so you don't own your futility and darkness; those are actually not yours but Mom's?
Well that sounds definitely like something to become free from.
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That's the question, Guest... still working out the answer and it may be OK, if I never get to a final, definitive "... and that's that." place. As long as I simply start walking down that path...
and the short answer is, no - I don't believe I own the infinite, penultimate futility or darkness that is my mom's waking (and probably sleeping) consciousness that results from always blaming (and giving away power of to) others. There is my own sense of futility re: having any ability or power or enough caring to impact and wake up my bro and mom from their limited view of reality. There is loss - for sure! Even the loss of my own self-soothing illusion that I MIGHT be able to "be in the right place at the right time with the right words" to be the catalyst for something of that nature. The loss of hope... and the acceptance of letting that "quest" go.
The personal darkness that I do own: is what I call the creative void - and it's a warm & fuzzy cocoon that always passes back to morning again. It's actually a nice place... healing... it's more like a litter of kittens all piled and jumbled on top of each other, resting & recharging for the next "play" session.
I have LOOKED under the bed, in the closet... for those awful, terrible, shiver-me-timbers, pee-inducing fearful darknesses within me. Stared 'em all in the face now, even the big boogie man of the certain knowledge that I too, will one day, die. Those places that I thought were so shamefully bad... I've mostly studied and claimed as part of myself -- and they were normal reactions to painful situations outside of my control - then.
That's why I think, it's finally time to take on the challenge of the most stubbornly difficult or resistant one -- and figure out the "how" of the best way to help this one thing grow, evolve, and change within me.
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Been thinking about your post Amber and where and how you seem different to how I am...
(I think you mean ultimate and not penultimate, just a feeling.) Interesting that you point your 'futility' towards any actions regarding Mom/Bro. That took me aback. Futility for me is huge, but that's a whole different thing and certainly not about FOO or PDs or anything there connected. Not about quests for sure. Wow, quests, I remember those.
Ah the kitten card. :D With marshmellows. 8) That's good, in a 'that is a goodness' way. (To me the void is the void, it's not creative or anything, but that's different.)
Death ain't the boogie man really. The boogie man is the boogie man; whoever he is: the one who could torture, torment and make your life a living hell so that death is a breeze. That's where fear is useful. I guess.
Transformation goes only so far. Some think that humans can go further...probably just by talking themselves into it; evolving their own brains etc. On a small level, fair enough, within the bounds of what is possible for everyday humans today but beyond that? They need their heads examined. Dr Guest says so.
But your personal quest, why not, you have good reasons to live and thrive. They are no doubt a great en-courage-ment?
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I used to be involved with a group (and married to someone from it) that believed in that "above & beyond" kind of transformation. Some of the basics of that were actually helpful in therapy... but I agree wholeheartedly, that the natural limiting factor is that we're all sorta normal, everyday, run of the mill humans -- and we all do, think, and feel all those human-scale things which are stuck with the labels good and bad... but that this doesn't really qualify us as "good" or "bad" people; healthy or broken people. That's something else again.
Finally watched The Black Swan with hubs and the first real friend I made post-Twiggy days... we've stuck together since junior high school...preteenagers... boyfriends, husbands, kids, losing parents... she is also a "survivor" and has a story with overlaps into/onto mine. She and I were able to talk about it, right after it was over... hubs was too much in shock after it; called it "disturbing"; and exhibited a need for some reassurance from me, that it was "just a movie"... that things like this didn't really happen, did they? He's not talking about it, too much yet. (and he thought he was going to sleep through it!) And damn, if every single book I'm picking up these days - all fiction(?) - doesn't have abuse as the central theme of the book.
Of course, friend has a FOO-story too embarassing to share, except with someone like me who no longer lives in the town and won't judge her by her family. Poor hubs must've felt like there there was something in the water, where we grew up!
But back to the movie - I'm still trying to put into words for myself, the ending where she says: it was perfect, I was perfect... along with the "price" of being perfect. Friend and I absolutely understood and didn't question the main char's self-hatred nor the "accident" which finally provided the kind of oblivion and peace which she simply didn't find anywhere else. Hubs is afraid of that; probably "getting" that this is what I'm currently zoomed in on changing in myself... and has seen it when it was out of control, in me and other people. That kind of unconscious, conflicting, and self-abusing "throw myself under the bus" mental process.
Asking myself: is it true that everything has a price? Is that the mentality behind internalized self abuse? The silly, incorrect, and just plain "wrong" idea? And isn't "beating ourselves up"... forcing ourselves to "stay with the pain"... or living in depressive "flatland"... or smoking or worse... just our "inner parent" imposing that price; consequence -- on ourselves? And if we're adults; grandparents even... do we really NEED an inner parent anymore? (inner children are more fun once they realize they're allowed to BE children...) What if those inner parents are cruel and nasty and manipulative SOBs?? Over controlling; self-boundary intrusive yet still neglectful... abusers? Shouldn't those kind of inner parents be overthrown in a coup? or taken out with the trash?
and THEN, I read an article about several studies into "Loyality"... and am left puzzled; something I don't understand in the context of how I understand loyalty; what I was taught about all that loyalty entailed. "Studies looking at loyalty and trust suggest that these qualities may be fundamental to human relationships", some psychologists say. OK so far. I can agree with that... it's what all people need to connect with another. HERE's the part that doesn't jibe with my experience:
"Therefore, staying loyal to someone, and preserving a mutual feeling of trust, [my emphasis] allow people to be able to function with others without constantly suspecting their motives". Later, the article says, "People who were apt to forgive their partner without that partner making amends tended to show a gradual erosion of their self-respect." Well DUH - we call that being a doormat; throwing ourselves under the bus; I hope they didn't get a grant to come to that conclusion.
So all this is rolling around together, in my head. (please - if you see a hole in this premise and line of reasoning - pls kick it wide open, ok?)
Trust is experience based. When you meet someone new - you take a risk, and trust them to fulfill their promises - keep a secret, show up at the agreed time, whatever. To do what they SAY they will do.
Loyalty is something based on.... what? belief? past experience of trust and reliability? our own unconscious wants & needs? attachment?? I was taught that "loyalty" had no connection with trust at all... it was those family roles... that mattered more; one forgives family everything; or at least I had to; I have a hard time coming up with examples of when it worked the other way for me. (OK - so I don't really believe that anymore; but the old reflex - tradition - or foo-script is still there.)
My friend's FOOstory involves classic domestic abuse; her sister is being loyal and going back to sick (and criminal) hubby despite the fact that she absolutely can't trust him. I stayed loyal to my FOO over the years, despite what that did to my self-respect... and have not ever been able to trust them, over & over... it's been proven that even when they SAY "it's only because I care about you; it's good for you; for your own good" - it absolutely wasn't in my best interest. And the loyalty conflict issue - comes out, is acted out in me - I think... perhaps... as this self-abuse. To be loyal to these people I can't trust... is hurting myself. But to be loyal to mySelf - to protect myself via boundaries and all these other skills - is to violate that loyalty to FOO. And there is no "middle way" for my mom or bro - and me. Not to them; not part of their reality... and definition of trust & loyalty.
So... I don't understand how there can be these "relationships" - where the basics don't exist - trust and loyalty. Seems to me that these two things are pre-requisites for defining that a relationship exists. And, in interactions where one "trades" one's self-respect for the illusion of a relationship... for a one-way relationship of loyalty and forgiveness of all things... how does that eventually turn into such vile and intense self-hatred, that one unconsciously punishes oneself? Is that where the drive to perfectionsim comes in? Codependence? or is it that pain - like water - seeks it's own lowest level? And that this kind of pain is the top of the list of unbearable pain, and therefore activates an unconscious activity to stop the pain?
Musing... pondering... letting all this roll around in my head (out loud) for awhile. Y'all don't have to try to answer my questions... unless there's something there for you, too. If I don't say things out loud like this, I can't always hear when my thoughts & ideas are absurd. No one says - hey, what about??? or that's just wrong... or...
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Hi PR,
What popped up for me was the notion of "tolerable risk". That relates to how much threat you are experiencing.
For me, at the peak of battling to cope with a frank reality that my brother would happily have destroyed my life and was (fortunately incoherently and ultimately, to the court, irrationally) trying to do so...to have any contact with him whatsoever became an intolerable risk. When that switch flipped, that this was a matter of both self-preservation and my inherent right to dignity and peace, I finally was able to release him to be who he is. But he is no longer in my PHamily. Amazingly, for my main abuser, I had to go through some grief. I had no brother any more. (Never had had a protective, kind, good older brother. But still, there was a part of my identity in which, I had this relative. Didn't think I needed to grieve any about that, especially given what an enormous relief it was, but the psyche knows what it knows. And that was good. To see it, not worry about how nonsensical it was. To let that grief happen too.)
So when the definitions of right and wrong and loyal or disloyal come up in your current effort to find safety and health, I think what you may be trying to do is simply define for yourself, in a way you and your conscience (as opposed to your guilty fearful self) can live with, what tolerable risk is. (That's what ongoing relationships with difficult family involve, I think. All a choice. NC is always on the table. But...so is some compromise...if the payoff--having the relative and that part of your own identity--does not involve intolerable risk.)
Hell, even the most loving, healthy relationships involve SOME risk. We can disappoint each other. Even "good" and "safe" people will hurt somebody sometimes. But, I think when we come farther along in healing, that knowledge becomes tolerable and doesn't necessarily mean a severing. Depends. Case by case. With friends, family, PHamily.
It might involve a lot of pendulum swings. You might even need that extremism for a while. Perhaps the adrenalin it provides also gives you power, to contain the old fears. And to prevent you from slipping further into self-abuse. The danger is that in the raging battle to save oneself from abuse, one can unwittingly slip occasionally into shades of abusiveness oneself. (I know I found that dark wind in myself. Who, me? I was stunned. Had no idea I even had that darkness. It was as though Mother Theresa woke from a nightmare in which she was plotting how to stomp on somebody dying in a Calcutta gutter.) After a while, I realized that under enough strain, any psyche can morph and strain into something new, something distorted. Well and truly including my own.
So forgiveness, when it came, was a mercy to me. (All done, regarding my mother. Not completed, regarding Nbro.) Because I could forgive myself, too, for the dark places I fell into. AND REALIZED I COULD CLIMB OUT FROM.
For what it might be worth, the legal battle ended with sociobro about a year ago. I continue with NC and assume he will, as well. But oddly, I am beginning to realize that if, one day, I wound up seeing him, or chose to attend a funeral he was attending, or whatever...I don't think I'd be all that fussed. Saddened, some, to see him and remember. But because the switch flipped for me, I have already saved myself. Nothing he could do or say to me, or about me, ever, will change that.
It's like I've had surgery. I have no desire or plan to ever see my brother again (though hope I may one day see his kids or my SIL). But I'm realizing if I did, he could dance around me, stick his face in my face, exude all the evil toxic crazy vibes he wanted. And I would be able to stand there sipping my punch, and know I am fine. The brother-terror-gland has literally been removed. There's nothing he can squirt at me that would reactivate it.
So...it really doesn't matter if I see him or not. I will never seek him out, because his behavior was truly sociopathically vicious, but I don't need the razor wire any more. I am my own safe fence.
Jeez. I useta be able ta write better imagery.
love,
Hops
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Tolerable risk, nice one. I was thinking about tolerating ambiguity; rather off down my own meandering nonsense path, thinking about 'trust' and 'loyalty'. Ambiguity pays a big part of course.
I wondered if there's more trust for someone I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw them vs. I wouldn't trust them as far as I can spit. Maybe they're the same distance/difference now that I'm not as strong as I used to be.
"Under enough strain, any psyche can morph and strain into something new, something distorted." We are all rapists and murderers under the circumstances necessary for each of us to behave like that. Fact, I would imagine. Why would any one person be different?
Hops, about safety: okay, so you wouldn't be fussed at seeing him, but presumably if he was wielding a large machete you'd feel pretty afraid? It's still necessary to keep in mind that a few would be violent - inner safety and boundaries are one thing. They don't stop the knife.
What's loyalty. A loyal person to me is one who has integrity, who is constant, and who will withdraw trust once (HA! once, not, if! :lol:) it has been violated. In everyday terms, not in ultimate compassion type terms.
I gotta say i have zero interest in seeing Black swan. Mind you I have little interest in films these days. My head is full enough and all the stories are the same really.
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You're right, Guest.
Maybe I'm indulging in some empty braggadocio (unlikely to be tested).
But ironically, his very favorite object when he was young was a machete a professor who did exotic travels gave him.
And also true, as an adult, after Viet Nam, he discovered the joys of hunting...traveled to other countries, even, to shoot the biggest animals he could.
Ewww.
I think he's truly a coward, though, so at a funeral he'd be more likely to be an empty suit.
Probably I wouldn't be notified or invited and it won't ever come up, anyhow.
tx for the warning though...I can fantasize myself into trouble.
xo
Hops
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TT I have a story about brand loyalty. Neighbour of mine always buys the same model of car from the same sales shop. Last time but one it had a problem (this person buys them new and exchanges them after a few years...with the same shop). Did they go back and buy again? Sure. I call it brand loyalty even when the brand is devalued and is no longer as good. The customer remains loyal. :? I'd tend to feel like you. They stop getting my cash! And I don't think brand loyalty is that different to other loyalties.
Hops ...goodness. Well. Umm. I'd keep a very big distance if I could. Just because. No point in inviting problems if you don't need to.
As for my being in the same room as my NCers....I don't fancy it. Neither of them are people I would stay in the same room with if they were someone else....er.... :? TT's affliction is catching...I guess I mean: there are better things to do. And why be around wicked people if you don't need to? OTOH if you need to be, I liked the advice/comment on your thread way back about not making eye contact. Very sensible I thought.
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Hi Guest,
My affliction - Oh thank you :lol:! I think you're talking about the times when I can't wake up fully and that it could come in handy if you're in company you don't want to give attention to? Yes, you could look at it as an affliction :(. The good part is that 75 mg. of Wellbutrin a day fixes it, but if I forget a dose, I go right back to being afflicted.
tt
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page 2...?
TT
I didn't know it was a problem for you every day. Sorry to hear that.
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Hi - just wanted to pop in and let y'all know I have a root canal early this morning. Had a FULL and difficult session with my "advisors" yesterday... and haven't been able to think (do I mean ruminate?) about it yet - but I figure being a captive patient in a chair who has their mouth being worked on is the perfect opportunity.
I appreciate all the company around my musings; Hops - I need to digest your post; I connected with a lot of what you said. And tt, that definition gives me PLENTY to toss around in the mix... sort of like garlic, lemon juice and cumin. Hopefully, I'll be back later today... just depends on what pain medication I'm dealing with.
I suspect that all the blather in this thread, is simply me... trying to define... what the experience of BEING me (for me) is all about... and looking to see if there is some cotter pin, somewhere that I can pull out of the mechanism of the whole abuse experience... so that it finally falls apart... leaving just me.
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Hummus is "superfood", tt...
protein, fiber, it doesn't spoil easily in the hot humid NC summers... lemon juice gives it Vit C... garlic is an antioxidant (and good for circulation, heart, BP and even some stomach issues)....
what's not to like? :D
So, the miracle of modern medicine is that the worst pain I felt during the root canal was having more xrays taken and from having to keep my mouth open so long - my jaw is still recovering. A couple more weeks - and that pain will be HISTORY when they replace the temp filling with the permanent one.
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So why isn't dealing with emotional pain just as straightforward? When it stops hurting - you eventually forget it ever did and it doesn't have a seat with a name on it, taking up space in your thoughts/feelings anymore. CAN it be that straightforward and I just don't know the secret of how to do that? Does the kind of ruminating that CB is talking about on her thread... only prolong our agony? If so, is that because we think there is a "magic answer" somewhere in those situations that is yet to be discovered... and that we must "try harder, work smarter, be patient & persistent, and open our eyes to it"? And we just can't accept the face value of the situation... it is what it is... and no more than that?
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Tolerable risk, nice one. I was thinking about tolerating ambiguity; rather off down my own meandering nonsense path, thinking about 'trust' and 'loyalty'. Ambiguity pays a big part of course.
I wondered if there's more trust for someone I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw them vs. I wouldn't trust them as far as I can spit. Maybe they're the same distance/difference now that I'm not as strong as I used to be.
Guest, I think you've described my agony in the simple phrase: tolerating ambiguity. For me, ambiguity is the source-irritant that begets over-thinking and anxiety. It's truly not a comfortable place to live life from, at all. Yet, when all the pieces of relationships and situations are whirling around me in an emotional tornado -- there IS calm at the center and certainty and I sink into that in relief and competence/confidence. The most amazing things come out of my mouth in those situations from someplace deep inside... and I lead the way out. I don't know at all... how... why... I can do this. It's a paradox; a mystery to me... and thankfully, I can simply accept a mystery and appreciate it. Thanks for reminding me of this!
And you're absolutely right, there is almost more trust in "not trusting" someone; I've experienced that as well. It's predictable... non-ambiguous. It makes "sense", can be accounted for... worked around.
So: some of the old FOO issues I've recently been dealing with are due to the fact of unpredictability... the "relationship" which is supposed to imply trust; but in experience doesn't... ambiguity... along with a heavy seasoning of old "pain"; new "pain"; and a new perception of how I react to pain.
That brings me right around to facing the original topic, here... which is un-doing the reflex to heap more abuse on myself -- physically, emotionally, mentally - which was the "coping strategy" (dubious as it is) I reached for way back when... to make the pain "stop"... get my brain engaged in problem-solving... and reduce the anxiety brought on by ambiguity and cognitive dissonance. Nice job, Guest!! Thanks for helping me re-focus.
I'm gonna take a time-out on this for a bit; some of my ideas and thoughts on this topic are starting to "settle out" of mixer-blender rolling around... and I know it'll look different - my perception of it will be different - if I let it settle first, before I start just blabbing and digressing into a lot of other rat-trail digressions along the way.
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Hops wrote:
It's like I've had surgery. I have no desire or plan to ever see my brother again (though hope I may one day see his kids or my SIL). But I'm realizing if I did, he could dance around me, stick his face in my face, exude all the evil toxic crazy vibes he wanted. And I would be able to stand there sipping my punch, and know I am fine. The brother-terror-gland has literally been removed. There's nothing he can squirt at me that would reactivate it.
Congratulations, Hops! And I'm not being sarcastic - I'm sincerely happy for you. Perhaps one day - soon? - I can be in a simliar place. For the moment, that fear is actually useful to me and it helps prod me through the process of thinking of and planning for all the what-ifs for every way that the depth of my bro's denial could drag me down with him.
But, I don't think my self-abuse reflex is caused by fear so much as.... well, something else. Maybe anger that I can't really openly direct at the person I'm angry with? Combined with a PERCEPTION of the futility of being able to protect myself, to have others validate the need and severity of the risk/threat that I see inherent in the situation... and to stand by me; help. Maybe simply a very pure voicelessness - a wanting to cry out and wail about the tragedy that is my FOO. Public grieving?? Maybe.
I do find that I'm starting to be able to speak to people about this, openly - and without shame/blame. (Though some people still overlay a blame reflex onto my comments and meaning; I don't - everyone is free to be as nuts as they wanna be, in my book - just don't force me to swallow that kool-aid and pretend I like it, too.) And there is something empowering in being able to call a spade a spade, without euphemismistic, PC-speak, or dancing around the real perception I have of the situation. Maybe this is a type of public grieving... that wailing above. And I am finding validation - people actually UNDERSTAND what I'm talking about and are cognizant that there are people this screwed up in the world -- and that sometimes, we're physically related to them.
Remember my "smoke-signal" metaphor for my attachment to cigarettes? A silent cry for help? Well.... I'm not silent any longer. But, I wonder if deep-down in the old Self... if somehow I've claimed some blame and responsibility (and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this has something to do with trust & loyalty)... or even stupidity; a mistake I made back when I was a child and couldn't be expected to "know better" or be able to deal sick people when I myself was in dire need of help... and that is the reason I continue to "beat myself up", reflexively... and withdraw into and isolated, self-abusing shell.
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Glad if anything I say helps Amber. I'm sure it's by accident.
For me, ambiguity is the source-irritant that begets over-thinking and anxiety. It's truly not a comfortable place to live life from, at all.
Ohhhh yeah! :D Tell me about it. But heck, it sure strengthens the patience gland and as you say, you find a place of calm (e-ven-tu-all-y) and - you get to listen to your own self-talk dribbling away through all the possible assumptions, associated emotions and so on. Prolonged ambiguity is a good place to test yourself and watch your thought processes. It can also drive you close to insanity. Not a good place probably to try and stop smoking! :lol:
Ah heck if I sound a bit off-centre it's because I've had a few hours chewing over either the incredibly stupid, or, the incredibly manipulative, machinations of someone who ......finds it impossible to be either straightforward, or, successfully wicked. Ain't it odd. That many who are wicked and manipulative and disordered cannot do it successfully? Ahhhhhhhhhhh that's because.............they have no empathy!!!!!!!
I'm being silly here. I know that of course, have known it for a very long time. I'm coldly angry so it's coming out as sarcasm. What I really want to say is: when these jerks don't affect me any more, when I fail to get justifiably angry, when I can smile and say "Is that so?" to their stupidity, lies and general screwedupidness......is when it doesn't matter to me what the hell they do. But while it does matter, while I am involved, and there are other people I might care about involved, other people who are not disordered, and while one person behaves like an idiot and threatens to screw the whole thing up: I will lead by example, be honest without blaming or shaming and get the right bloody thing done. PEOPLE. Oh..................... that feels so much better! :D
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OH.... NICE WORD: <B>screwedupidness</B>
and tt: yeah, I've used rage to help me double-dig (by hand) garden beds, too... took my mind off it... absorbed it and let the itsy-bitsy soil microbes digest all the negativity and turn it into compost! At least, it felt like that. Purification...
oh. yeah. purification. I think I just tripped over something... purification by fire. (yeah, I know... in this case, another contradiction or paradox...)
AND -- the fact when I'm feeling my Self squeezed down so small, out of existence... or conversely, led into dealing with thing after thing after thing... and I'm feeling "I don't wanna..." or I wasn't paying attention and let other people manipulate my attention and time... I look for a way to "center" in myself again; safe within boundaries... no piling on allowed.
DUH-HUH... so many times, smokers are pushed to the fringes of activity and interaction - take your stinky addiction over there; don't smoke in front of my kids; oooooh YUCK that's offensive - and the advantage of that is... is time alone to center, most of the time. And then, there are the smoking "friends"....
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AND -- the fact when I'm feeling my Self squeezed down so small, out of existence... or conversely, led into dealing with thing after thing after thing... and I'm feeling "I don't wanna..." or I wasn't paying attention and let other people manipulate my attention and time... I look for a way to "center" in myself again; safe within boundaries... no piling on allowed.
DUH-HUH... so many times, smokers are pushed to the fringes of activity and interaction - take your stinky addiction over there; don't smoke in front of my kids; oooooh YUCK that's offensive - and the advantage of that is... is time alone to center, most of the time. And then, there are the smoking "friends"....
Sometimes, I just need to hear myself...
there is one more thing to add to my list of ways I've emotionally "attached" to smoking... and that is the idea that I "need" something EXTERNAL to myself - that I am not, or do not feel, or have no confidence that I am ... acceptable for human interaction just as I am (smoking friends provide that kind of acceptance, I think). Everything else is just pure "habit"... but I won't underestimate how powerful those kind of habits - the ones we adopt to provide a substitute for "comfort" - are anymore. They are the "path of least resistance" and there is no Return on Investment of any positive value in them, in reality. They are some kind of sentimental "security blanket".
One of my group of advisors made a very interesting comment at the end of our last meeting. I felt myself just absorbing the words; letting it sink in sans judgement or comment at that moment... kind of preserving it to think about later. He said that one's perception of a situation - even how facts relate to each other and create the "situation", as one perceives it - changes over time. Some new input - no matter how small or seemingly unimportant - can sometimes shift one's perception significantly. In the kind of planning and brainstorming sessions we've been having, this is important to remember... because the meaning of the complete, whole "picture" can change after all the "facts" of the composition are assembled and fit into the hierarchy of the "whole". And those facts never become "carved in stone" -- they are always changing.
Even something that initially appears to have negative impact can actually become a positive, once it's found it's relative place in the total composition. If I apply this idea of fluid perception to these habits of what I'm calling, all together, self-abuse... then I can see that in one time-limited set of circumstances... the habits themselves might've been perceived as a good thing; useful for protection and survival. And shift a few things around... different timeframe even... and the perception of the utility and need and importance of course, changes too. The significance and value of something can change from the good side of the continuum to the bad... and vice versa... there isn't anything absolute, certain, unchanging or inherently good or bad, in these "facts" that generate the perception, at any given moment. I think that was the gist of what I was hearing.
And it's kind of amazing how that contradicts the idea of "once the scapegoat always the scapegoat" in a dysfunctional FOO. They can't both be true at the same time, can they? Aren't those ideas mutually exclusive? Sure, the FOO might not acknowledge the continuity of change over time... but then, most of the time they have such a limited perception and understanding of "reality" in the first place, they could hardly be expected to be the "ultimate" authority - the wise monk at the top of the mountain - unless we LET them fill that role in our own perception, right?
I'm not sure I see where this is going. Have just had a bit of downtime to think about this... been pretty busy around here. There is a connection for me, somewhere in this idea of perception and these habits I want to change -- and there is a side-issue of my own perception of myself in that, too. What I feel, within myself, I have confidence and competence in...
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one's perception of a situation - even how facts relate to each other and create the "situation", as one perceives it - changes over time. Some new input - no matter how small or seemingly unimportant - can sometimes shift one's perception significantly. In the kind of planning and brainstorming sessions we've been having, this is important to remember... because the meaning of the complete, whole "picture" can change after all the "facts" of the composition are assembled and fit into the hierarchy of the "whole". And those facts never become "carved in stone" -- they are always changing.
I agree with this 90% I reckon. The other 10% are the 'facts' that one needs to recognise to function (you know, like gravity, or, if you don't drink and eat, you will die). There are other 'facts' which are carved in stone. Once someone is dead, they're not going to come back to life. This approach of mine is {probably} the result of having 'facts' denied, so I do put importance on knowing what is and isn't factual (like the facts about what I might be feeling at any given time: those are cotton-wool facts that belong to only me). So I have to discern that there are in fact, facts, that are immutable. Not everything is gray. Trying to work out the contents of another's head is all grey. But the fact that they have a head, is not gray. So yes, 90%. I don't know how we do function (apart from the being alive business) most of the time. I guess the answer is: messily.
The FOO labels are beyond me. A lot of the time I'm on the (emotional) verge of telling people to FOO off. I don't care what they think about me. I care how they behave around me, and with each other (coz it passes the time: I'm sure I could walk away too). As for habits, I'll decide about them. That's just me of course. I know that I'm acceptable for human interaction ..... it's the other buggers that are the problem :lol:
One last thought: They are the "path of least resistance" and there is no Return on Investment of any positive value in them, in reality.
bit like life, then? :|
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Oh yes, I'm all for the facts of the laws of physics... or finances... or... yes, even "bang head on wall to feel pain and solve nothing"....
but it's the last one in that list that I'm sure is at the bottom of this strangely frustrating puzzle.
I can't agree with you though... that life's ROI is pointless, without value. Even though I subscribe to the idea that I'm nobody special... I still AM and that's of tremendous value to me. Thankfully, I don't have to worry about what history will say about me... because I'm just one ordinary person trying to muddle through - but my personal experience is quite different. Despite all my picking about in the debris of my Family Of Origin (FOO) shatters of sharp glass... looking for clues, trying to understand & piece together (or undo) things left in the "how I am" part of my brain.
[and now for something completely different...]
I am a fan of young people - and how they're addressing, managing, organizing and framing a world view and life perspective for themselves. Just like us children of the 60s integrated "media" into our self-defined personalities (when we were allowed to self-define)... today's young adults are integrating technology -- and new "facts" that become apparent from the integration of that technology into their "selves". Wired magazine, this month has an article on feedback loops.... and I'm going to treat myself to reading it this morning, beginning to end... because from the neuropsychology perspective... that's what I'm dealing with, and talking about -- about these damned habits that I want to pluck out of me -- like the feathers on the ballerina's back in Black Swan.
Back later -- between this article and the "abuse" lists at the website Hops posted - Out of the Fog... new connections/associations are starting to form and generate some ideas... that just might finally nudge me over the block that's keeping me from understanding -- and being ABLE to do something about it.
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And because I'm a good little Janey One Note, I'll add:
--the amazing addictive power of nicotine (more addictive in the brain, ANY brain, than heroin) is a FACT and has nothing to do with the unique individual or how well they can analyse psychological reasons for it
--hypnosis works
--as does hypnosis + nicotine replacement (which one can deal with later, after one's lungs are pink again)
I chose Route 3. So for me, which is a source of pleasure and amusement and no regret at all, my cravings have simply completely transferred over to the gum (which I order cheap from NZ). Many wouldn't choose a substitute but for me, the goal was ONLY to get off cigarettes and get the smoke out of my breathing organs. The hypnosis session was so powerful and life-giving and GOT my lifeforce back on my own side, and I wanted zero risk I'd return to the white sticks and sucking in the smoke.
It worked
It worked
It worked
(One day, when I'm ready, I'll go through a whole separate process of getting off the gum. And I don't mind that that'sa To Do in the future. Meanwhile, I've got health restored, may years now. And the magic is, cigarettes themselves haven't been a source of craving forever. In fact, they're completely aversive--again, yay, hypnosis).
xo
Hops
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Thankfully, I don't have to worry about what history will say about me...
Amber, can you explain what you mean here?
I get what you mean about value being relative (and not absolute).
Hops, nice facts, I like it, and well done.
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...actually, "no regret at all" is skipping one teeny little one (not), which is that the gum is EXPENSIVE. Even cheap from NZ.
But in my view, as profoundly desperately and TOTALLY addicted I was to smoking cigarettes (multiple quit attempts, a couple that stuck for months, over decades...) -- I finally told myself that gum (or lozenge or whatever) is way way way way way way cheaper than being dead. Or lung cancer. (Had a friend go that way...)
Meanwhile, I'm off to another thread to complain about the cost of housing. (Where is the irony icon?)
Butting out of the brief butt-in on smoking, PR...think of it as a tic (a desire to save). Prolly codependent of me.
xo
Hops
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That's OK, Hops! You're actiing motherly... and saying "when all else fails... if you haven't tried... you oughta think about it". And really, the question about why I haven't is: why NOT? I can't answer that with anything that isn't a complete total line of head up butt rationalization. I am systematically trying to blow all those rationalizations out of the water. The main one is the one I'm looking at and trying to address now:
why my unconscious self is SOOO resistant to the idea, that even this casual level of chat about the topic actually causes me to smoke more. The "reason" isn't anxiety or fear or addiction even; right now, I'm looking at and trying to decide if the reason is self-loathing brought on by shame... or anger. Seems there is still a stagnant pool of anger hanging around and when I can't take it out on the sick person(s)... for fear of retribution and I can't just go off in a nuclear meltdown (collateral damage to innocent bystanders)... the anger energy turns on me, as it's target: and that's a negative feedback loop... one that I suspect was encouraged by the usual perpetrators. Cigarettes are already aversive, to me... yet the urgency to smoke even more... overcomes... what? Can I strengthen - support - validate... and create a positive feedback loop that WORKS... to reassure that unconscious self that I really AM OK... and I don't NEED to smoke, to feel that way? Remember, my mom was the original "any means to the end she wants"... and said about my smoking... "it could be worse". I think that hurt the recently traumatized unconscious self, more than I've acknowledged, before.... and then, she got really ANGRY.
The good news is that this is churning up more muck from the bottom of the usual murky pool. Had a dream about my Dad, expressing to me a limit... and am still pondering over it. I am aware how once my bioNic Mom got what she believed was absolute control over me... the "rules" went in the opposite direction... toward neglect and parentification and no clear appropriately age-related limits. Both of those situations revolved around my taboo "anger"... about the real "facts" of what happened to me and her denial of it... how she demonized my dad and forced me choose her over him - how he had to "walk away" and really couldn't rescue me... etc.
This is the part of the healing work, my T wanted me to do on my own. And that makes sense to me, because way back when -- there was a solid decision that Twigs/Amber made together... and smoking is only the outward expression of that. I am still trying to pinpoint what that decision was - I don't know... can't quite piece that together, even with all the details and puzzle pieces I've accumulated over time. It's time for me to write things down on post-its -- and start assembling a flow chart on a wall, I think.
Ah...Guest! Once upon a time, my dream was to make it big as an artist. To express in images all the babbling and ideas that you can search on this board; the ideas I've learned to actually TALK about... but the images were foul and difficult to create -- painful for me (I was excruciatingly literal)... and I think it might've been the strongest commitment I ever made to myself -- to stop painting until I could brighten up my palette and paint the OTHER side of life. There was a childish part of me that believed if I was a "famous" artist, it would be a satisfying revenge... and permanently protect me from the shame of being part of that family of dysfunctional, self-destructive, morons. I could disown them; I would be independent of them; wouldn't "need" them for anything (oooo - except for the business connection -- I don't need them now).
Life had other plans for me... and other opportunities ran across my screen... but that now makes me anonymous; a nobody special... and I can "hide in plain sight". Again, with the shame component, huh? I'll look around and see if I still have a picture of the self-portrait that caused the director of the art dept to say that while the technique was excellent in places - if that image was what I saw of myself, I needed professional help! ;) Boy, was he ever right.
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Well, look how long my butt-out lasted! :roll:
I really AM OK... and I don't NEED to smoke, to feel that way?
You ARE okay.
You NEED to smoke because your brain is physically addicted to it.
This is why you need OUTSIDE help and additional inventive and different tools/weapons to break the addiction, to break through it like that ocean floor crust, to your deepest, un-verbalizable, un-analysable, life force.
I finally realized I was literally fighting against my own life force. Smoking was my weapon against it.
I eventually REALLY accepted that I wanted to lose.
I wanted it...that self deeper than any imagined inner child....way way deeper and more kind and more vast than my own clever rationalizing mind...to win.
I stepped aside. Got out of its way. With the help of the trained certified experienced clinical hypnotherapist.
(I so understand the anger and the triggering and stimulating-more-smoking of this whole topic. I completely get it. I felt the exact same, so I do need to muzzle myself after this...)
I don't have last word-itis, but close, on this one.
SOOOOO wanna save people from this unecessary suffering.
(Nothing more obnoxious than a "recovered" smoker but it's not a "moral" or "superior" desire...just eagerness to let a friend know. This IS doable and all the weapons you've used so far...ain't done it, so please, when you want to, remember it IS possible somebody ELSE could be telling you about a new tool for you?)
xxoo, now testing myself...can I shut up on this subject?
[To self: I done told her. This is approaching nagging. Shaddup.]
:lol:
xo, a way-overstimulated by my own adrenalin just now
Hops
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I hear ya, Hops! LOL... loud & clear! It's OK to ask for HELP. Got it!! (hee-hee!) REALLY - I don't mind.
This is my LAST ATTEMPT to sort out what you so accurately describe as a self deeper than the inner child even, that is fighting against my own strength of will to survive... with emotional/intellectual tools. I am aware of this self... at times, it's even personified into some sort of mideaval imp... and appears within my consciousness. Monkey mind run amok, perhaps... without boundaries, limits, or inner controls.
This phenomenon is absolutely real to me, Hops. Lets call it the death-wish zombie... the antithesis of everything ELSE that I am. Like an evil twin... or a self in a parallel universe, that can "cross over" into this one.
I have persuaded myself that I'm really, really close to solving the equation - finding X - the missing piece, the last puzzle piece - that will let me finally hack into and re-program that death-wish zombie out of existence. And all my research, self-checking, and feedback from the local universe at hand is telling me that pain is the key. People do successfully reprogram things like this. And I WANT to... no, it's more true to say I NEED to... figure out how to do this myself. It has something to do with control and boundaries within myself. It has to do with a mistake I made; back when I WAS Twigs.
Perhaps forgiveness is in that equation, too -- hypothetically it reads like this:
My mom co-opted me into her war with my Dad; convinced me that he was the "problem" and that everything would be fine if he were simply no longer in our lives. (parental alienation) This set up a huge conflict for me, because I knew that while he could've made other choices... he felt beset, beseiged, surrounded, overwhelmed and engulfed by my mom's constant targeting of him and projection onto him. My dad was a "normal" human - with normal human foibles, including a fair dose of ego, drive, determination and desire and able to enjoy his successes. He was also generous, fair, forgiving and quick to laugh and have fun. All "bad" things according to my mom. That's the first level of cognitive dissonance, for me... the first issue over love and loyalty and self-respect.
To be a "good girl" according to my mom - I must never express any of the those "normal" things that were like my dad. I must 24/7 and even in my sleep... be exactly like her. (invalidation of self; intrusiveness; etc sick stuff) Any deviation results in awful hurtful criticism, humiliation, and punishment. PAIN.
Follow that up with isolating me and the other sordid gory details of what happened... all the way to experiencing being SHUNNED and shamed and humiliated by my mom & her massive denial of even my ability to ascertain what was real and delusion/imagination (gaslighting).... and the moment that I voluntarily gave up Twigs -- and all her agony -- and stuffed her away in the box of unconsciousness. The absolute, life-extinguishing PAIN of what I could only call the "black hole", back then. Shame and pain and anger is a molotov cocktail of nuclear proportions...
... and if it's dangerous to lob it at the person who made you angry... or if it seems to be "kicking the sick person while they're down" and beyond the pale of empathy, sympathy, and..... forgiveness.... if it's a battle where only one survives... and if it goes against one's owns inner nature and principles...
well, who else is going to carry the load of the responsibility and accountability, except oneself? Especially when the futility of being to off-load any of that onto the person who perpetrated it is sinking in... when it's impossible to get through their denial... when even WHO YOU ARE isn't accepted as REAL... well, death is preferable to continuing to experience this. This is what I went through, that enabled me to connect strongly to the experience of holocaust survivors. And I was fortunate enough to find people like that -- who were able to understand, validate my experience, and comfort me... all in secret, of course... because I'd be punished for "telling stories" again. I was forced to lie about seeking such comfort. SIGH.
Good was bad; delusion was real; the sky wasn't blue anymore and the sun never rose in the morning. I was living in a universe where the realness of everything I'd known up to that point... was wrong. And because I knew it was wrong and insisted on pointing that out... I was "bad" in this universe. Because I needed a mother - emotionally - so desperately AND SHE WAS THE ENEMY, and I stubbornly refused to accept this THEN... this confusion of referred pain began to push out physical symptoms... and so I reached for a physical substance to try to work those pathways in reverse; smoking sent my brain into overdrive and hyperactivity and yes -- the dopamine effect; an insatiable satisfaction via the substance.
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So, these last what - six, seven years - of therapy, working and researching alone... listening to Twigs daily and validating her emotions... the millions of words HERE... there was still this one last connective dysfunctional issue to sort out: picking apart the story to find out WHY I smoked, so I could reprogram it. So, the question before Twigs and me is:
why on earth would I want to keep any reminders of that dark, evil, alternate universe in my life? The "opposite" land of my mom? When I've worked so hard to separate from that, and maintain my boundaries even through the recent "unpleasantness" of my close encounter with the way denial works... and in the process of that work, I've re-discovered all the joys of my life... the things that are good, positive, constructive... and I've looked around and realized hey... I AM OK, the way I am...
and what I'm coming to understand, is that it's Twigs that needs convincing and support through the process. She needs to let go of the horribleness of what she lived through; survived; and she needs the validation - still - that it was a bad thing... and also reminded that good things still exist... and that no one; nothing... is all good or all bad... like her mom believes. It's way SIMPLER than way back when, when Twigs was immersed in the nuthouse world of her mom's weirdness...
and she doesn't have to hide from fear that bad things will befall her unexpectedly... in spite of caution...
and she doesn't HAVE to forgive her mom, excuse her, forget it ever happened... as long as... she understands that she doesn't live with that crap anymore; she's back in the real world... where things that really are good for you - feel, smell, and taste good... and don't betray or abandon you... the rules and facts of gravity work the way they're supposed to...
and she doesn't have to obsess anymore on "figuring out" the problem anymore... as long as... she maintains her boundaries and doesn't get sucked back into the madness via feeling sorry for people who created their own catastrophe and are responsible for fixing it, themselves... and are in complete denial of that responsibility...
so she doesn't need to have anything to send her brain into overdrive.... to think things out... figure out how to interpret meanings in an upside down, inside out world... her brain works just FINE... and I'm going to let HER pick the method of putting down cigarettes... and letting it go.
And we can forgive each other the compromises we made to survive back then - she could've run away, for sure. But to where or what? It really might've been worse than what she did have to do, to survive. She could've not smoked... not given up and accepted her mom's delusional upside down universe... could've tried harder to not get lost in the duality of that... been able to stand up against the pain and confusion and gaslighting... but she wasn't. AND THAT'S OK.
Definitions. These are important. In a feedback loop one needs accurate data to compare... how fast I'm really driving right now and the speed limit. Then, even before we have the thought, we've reacted and let up on the accelerator to match our actual speed to the limit. Twiggy's special universe is this pre-attentive place; she's the sensei there. Not me; too many words; takes too long. When those two pieces of information aren't available or are distorted or denied... then there is no "meaning" or significance or motivation to even pay attention to the speedometer. And the interesting thing is... is that negative input into a feeback loop... doesn't motivate the desired behavior; it gets "stuffed" in the background and blocked out.... and in my case, I think even provokes an oppositional response. And the example I read about - specifically used the new graphic images being added to the surgeon general's warning on cigarettes... to illustrate how people will continue to simply ignore the data.
Twigs will love to design a plan to quit based on what she's learning about her REAL pain & her comfort/pain feedback system, the effects of smoking (physically and on the brain; during the experience), and what she's brainstorming on feedback loops.... it's right up her alley and she can customize it any way she wants. Let's call it her graduation, independence day, and get out of jail free.... present.
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I think...to make a big change...requires a big change. External, like Hops indicates.
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There's the rub.
External change/control sets up the HUGE resistance response, every single time. BUT: in getting me to think through how/why that is... I think you win the jackpot sweepstake prize, Guest. I had to go back and doublecheck my feedback loop process, as it relates to the "why" of smoking.
The constant message I heard from my mom was:
that how I thought/felt was "wrong" and it had to be changed to suit my mom
I was never allowed to just be, breathing, in her vicinity - my value was only in what I "did" - OR
simply not being there at all...
the subtext of our whole relationship - then and now - was to take care of mom's needs, not have any of my own (because that took away from hers)...
and there I was/am... with an oil tanker full of needs... and not even being allowed to know what they were (because why bother, if mom said that I felt X, when I felt Y or if they weren't going to get met?)...
... and getting the repeated message of "Go away kid; you bother me". No matter WHAT I was doing... (sometimes, even trying to meet her needs...)
There are 4 parts to a feedback loop - the evidence or data of actual behavior; the relevance or meaning or standard; a consequence for dviation; and action.
When the only way I could be acceptable to my mom was to "go away"... I took it to heart; took it seriously and literally... and since it gave me an outlet or expression for my anger & pain simultaneously... even that childish-teenaged "I'll show you; look what you make me do!!" kind of revenge... I dedicated myself to it.
She tried making me eat the cigarettes I had, even butts, one time. I was like, so what?? I'll throw up; feel like crap and go get more. And yet, her reaction to my smoking was... well, it could be worse. No matter what I did... she simply couldn't understand the MEANING - the relevance of how desperately I was trying to please her - fix her - make her happy... by "going away permanently". Because I suppose...
there just wasn't any room in her delusional reality for me, already - I already didn't exist as a person with feelings... just a robot-object to fulfill her needs; take care of her.
So, there was no relevance or meaning to violation of the standard... no action had positive consequences... and the feedback loop constantly reinforced the bad action in the first place... because at least it gave me a way to express anger, and the extreme pain I felt.
Undoing that feedback loop... and changing the outcomes... requires new definitions for all 4 steps of the process. A new loop, in other words... and completely putting the old one "off limiits" under all circumstances... talking myself OUT of all the rationalizations, and weird logic of why that loop made sense in the past -- in those wacked circumstances.
That's internal working it's way out... to external behavior. Any other approach just triggers "it doesn't matter; I don't matter - screw it" resistant response. Without that meaning-consequence being rational... and EMOTIONAL... the evidence doesn't matter and the action stage falls apart.
OK... I think I finally "got it". Sorry to all that it took so bloody long.
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You got it backwards, (((PR))).
what you so accurately describe as a self deeper than the inner child even, that is fighting against my own strength of will to survive...
The deeper-than-inner-child and deeper-than-thinking-self I was describing is NOT fighting against your survival.
Your strength of will is.
Your body doesn't care. It just takes in what you give it as as if you were pouring pesticide on a flower. At some point, the fine mind housed by this body will lose its landlord.
The deep life force I was describing is on your side.
(But it's not much interested in your strength of will. Or your thinking.)
It (that deepest life-force-self, kind and vast) wants you to live.
And be well.
(Me too.)
love,
Hops
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Maybe I do have it backwards; I'll ponder a bit. There is a way that fits, for sure. Fits - and makes sense...
IF... that duality I'm aware of was a result of intrusion, enmeshment & projection (the "evil twin" self-concept inserted by mom)...
then, AT THE TIME (and only then) the intentional, deliberate adoption of a "slow, agonizing death" via smoking...
was the available means to rid myself of the foreign invader... and validate my own, genuine self.
Hmmmmmm. That I could have it backwards, in this way... could absolutely be due to that conditioning, reinforcement and programming... (and ya know, that goes back to the idea that it's always my responsibility; my fault too)...
Truly, I'll think on this Hops. Seen like this? As you suggest? Fits that feedback loop concept a lot better than where I was going or was able to SAY... something felt kinda forced into the "mold" with yesterday's post...
So.... off to be and ponder for a few days...
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QUESTION! :: hand raised, wiggling in chair, can't contain myself...
I finally realized I was literally fighting against my own life force. Smoking was my weapon against it.
I eventually REALLY accepted that I wanted to lose.
I wanted it...that self deeper than any imagined inner child....way way deeper and more kind and more vast than my own clever rationalizing mind...to win.
You wanted two contradicting things, simultaneously? The first, as much as the other one?
Or, you are speaking from two different places within yourself?
Are you saying your mind turned to struggling with your own life force?
I've accidentally stumbled across something in one of those "books with no redeeming healing value"... which kinda hits the nail on the head of this topic for me. I am currently processing all that and won't have time for a few days to explain. During which, I'm hoping to get it distilled down to level of just enough words to be coherent... instead of my usual ocean of blather. That's what brought me back to what you wrote, Hops and my questions...
because what I'm seeing right now, is that my own life force - united with strength of will (and yeah, rationalization too) is precisely what is so attached to smoking -- as a means of achieving autonomy, inner control, essentially... survival in unbearable conditions. It's akin to the warped mental/emotional underpinnings of anorexia... or any other physical compulsion. I'm not ruling out the viewpoint I thought I heard you say... or trying to contradict it... still digesting and trying to make absolutely sure (if it's possible) that I understand what and how and why.
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Hi hon,
I'm saying that smoking, even apart from the huge biological power of the brain-addiction itself (which all my rationalizing was pissing in the wind of), was at the deepest level a warped submission-to-my-emotional-damage that it was okay to kill myself.
When I "met", though hypnosis, that deepest, vastest, kindest life-force-self, I realized that my neurosis and damage and fears and inherited stuff...was all adding up to those surface (didn't FEEL surface, but were more superficial) parts of me, which were waging an unholy war against my deepest desire to live, to thrive, to be whole (and not get lung cancer).
In the deepest life-force self (beneath personality, thought, IQ, imagination, and even verbosity) -- there was a vastly KIND and LIFE-FORCE self that craved my health. My well being. It was loving. (I helped conjure it up with the "peace and relaxation" scenario I provided the hyptherapist for our session...but still, it was bigger than me.)
I didn't know about that until I literally encountered it in the hypnosis session. (MUCH mind-chatter of mine can drown out all sorts of deep things.)
So....because I was so desperately addicted, and had finally encountered an equivalent desperation to not die that way I had watched an old friend die...I decided to take a risk of trusting a tool OUTSIDE of my own will.
My own will had perverse reasoning. I had to get humble. (Not ashamed, just humble.)
And when I got out of its way (by seeking hypnosis and the help of that human)...it amazed me.
Any help?
love to you and respect for your integrity in working with this...
xo
Hops
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Yes, thanks Hops!
Gotta do some research now on anorexia - because of the obvious similarities - and more pondering, connecting, trying to "see"...
Then, I'll be back.
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Research update -
So, I found a book that supports the idea that we can literally "change our minds" with current neuroscience data and a bit of new-agey spiritual twist to it. I like the phrase "change our minds" -- that's the direction I'm going in about the collection of self-abuse/sabotage habits I am working on, including the ocd-smoking rationalizations. I am however, having to suspend my belief about the strength, reality, and intangible substance and power of feelings and emotions with the utmost patience, as the author goes through every little thing he knows about neuroscience -- without making the association or connection yet with the practical how-to of making changes. It's his "scientific" belief that emotional feelings are merely the result of chemical processes in the brain that's more than slightly indigestible to me... but for the sake of seeing how it all ties in at the end of the book (and it's pedantically, tediously long) I am reserving judgement. My brain can accept that this explanation of emotions/feelings is valid; but I can't quite accept that in the context of how intensely I feel things. At least not yet.
That said, my subjective experience (and therefore the reality and tangible substance) of my feelings is sort of a parallel inquiry, as it relates to how I "went wrong" somewhere and decided that self-harm was a rational path to walk and I'm trying to understand - in the vocabulary of emotions, not science - how I might best be able to change the emotional reflexes (and warped rationality) that both prompt and demand this sort of solution - and what to replace it with. I found something useful in Out of the Fog's definition of invalidation... and their explanation of self (as in personality) injury from chronic invalidation and am pursuing that now. Everything I've previously described about me, what happened to me, the way mom and bro are.... and where I know my "buttons" are the most sensitive... is "invalidation", even in the mild everyday not-personal forms. This is the big gaping wound that I've only now gotten around to really taking a better look at, I think. A lot of the details and experiences I've chronicled can be tossed into a category simply called "chronic invalidation". Names, definitions, and explanations are all very important to me.
These quotes provide the link between that level of invalidation and intentional self-harm:
Linehan (1993a) investigates 'invalidating environments' and relates them to self injury.
"An invalidating environment is one in which communication of private experiences is met by erratic, inappropriate, or extreme responses. In other words, the expression of private experiences is not validated; instead it is often punished and/or trivialized. The experience of painful emotions disregarded. The individual's interpretations of her own behavior, including the experience of the intents and motivations of the behavior, are dismissed..."
and --
If a person's self expression is inhibited, or even forbidden, then it may lead to such a crisis that they turn inwards, only expressing themselves internally, and this might manifest as self harm. Self harm can be seen as 'communication to one's self'; a person who self harms may feel that the only way to have a voice, is to keep it silent and private, to express their feelings directly on their own body. If there is no one who will listen to the emotional outbursts of a frustrated and distressed person, they may turn to self harm as a form of emotional expression. By creating physical harm to themselves, they seek relief from the emotional distress that they are forbidden to express publicly. [My emphasis; this reminds me of the statement I made: I just need to HEAR my self... and it's a certainty, that I was in extreme frustration and emotional distress when the whole reality of my rape and the later events were dismissed as a "figment of my imagination" or a bad dream via my mom's denial.]
"One factor common to most people who self-injure, whether they were abused or not, is invalidation. They were taught at an early age that their interpretations of and feelings about the things around them were bad and wrong. They learned that certain feelings weren't allowed. In abusive homes, they may have been severely punished for expressing certain thoughts and feelings."
and --
"When your awareness rises, you'll begin to notice such (invalidating) comments on a regular basis. Together, they take their toll on us. We wonder if there is something wrong with us for feeling how we do. It seems fair to say that with enough invalidation, one person can figuratively, if not literally, drive another person crazy. This is especially possible, I believe, in the case where one person has long-term power over another. Examples of such relationships are parent/child, teacher/child, "spiritual" leader/follower, boss/employee, spouse A/spouse B. Such a sad scenario appears to be even more likely when the person being invalidated is highly sensitive, intelligent and has previously suffered self-esteem damage."
Me, again. The recipe for an antidote to that... the way through to changing the automatic, defensive reflexes... is boundaries and explicit, non-aggressive communication, I think. Tools we're already familiar with, within the context of our emotional vocabulary. But not being content with that, I'm going to keep looking... after all, I still don't trust my self that I've been thorough in my research yet... or am giving in to bias or making connections where there are none. I do see... that chronic invalidation could very well be behind my habit of constantly seeking outside approval and validation for my ideas and plans and even self-work -- i.e., my chronic babbling here over the years.
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So, I think I have the concepts now... how feedback loops work in our brain and emotions; why some emotions are triggered before we're even aware that we're being triggered and then act like runaway trains with our attention; what generates an emotion biologically; and oy vey! even the proper order of what I've been calling the mind-body connection... and how that fits into what I know from experience about conscious self, subconscious self and unconscious self.
I can see, feel, taste and touch and maybe even smell... how to edit my own feedback loops. Specific steps and how-tos. It was really validating to see how close I was, thinking through this stuff on my own. [ASSUMING in a big way, that this book's theory actually works; I have yet to try it.] I was missing at least one very important piece: that was the strong connection between a part of our brain that handles all our auto-programming for physical actions that we do without having to consciously focus on them... like brushing our teeth, washing a skillet, sweeping a floor... riding a bicycle... the connection between that part of the brain and the body... and that particular feedback loop that creates the awareness, sensations, and consciousness of what we generally call our "Self". Our comfort zones; our "normal".
The author repeated himself almost obsessively and it irritated and exhausted me. In the last third of the book, I finally recognized his technique as being an example itself of the process for change that he is proposing. He does make lots of real-life examples... in the vocabulary of emotions and healing that we use, but I felt as if that association wasn't strong enough. For a lot of us, the emotions that we seem to be stuck in from time to time are more real and concrete than anything else and they seem to control us, rather than just being a part of us. This was the piece I didn't understand; was right in my face and I wasn't seeing; and is THE most important part of the damned negative feedback loop. For this neuro approach to change to make sense to people like us, that side of things needs more explanation, more clarity, more examples to relate our own experience to. I think I can start to add some of those, after my brain rests, cools off, and I get a few things off my external life to-do list. That'll also give me time to experiment a bit with the techniques and let the ideas settle and connect to my experience... see if it "fits".
It's not a one size fits all situation for us, so if this does work... it's only one more tool in our toolbox that might work for some folks. But for my particular "discomfort" it seems to be a possible solution and I was already working on this path of concepts anyway. It's gonna take me awhile to distill it down so, this time I'll write off-line until I get there.
OH - and I titled this whole thread incorrectly. It should've been Pain + Shame --> self-abuse. At least now, I have an idea of how that actually happens and why... and therefore I also have the pieces of the "programming language syntax" to write a new program. My wacked out FOO provided ample current-lunacy clues to making that change in the title. Avoidance is still a big part of the process - the almost instantaneous recoil reflex I have to insanity... and I'm starting to understand why, and what I've always misunderstood in the past. FINALLY.
So, until I'm back with my "opus"... the book is called "Evolving Your Brain: The Science of Changing Your Mind"; author is Joe Dispenza. It's easily readable but I suspect in paper form, it's a big long book. On the Kindle, I think it's the longest I've ever read. I was able to ignore some of his new agey, sorta out there claims... I've heard that crap before, you know? Maybe there's something to it, but that's not the focus of what I needed from the book. And the quantum physics stuff? same deal... I get the connections that he's trying to make... and I'm skeptical, but I won't totally dismiss it... so one can gloss over those parts of the book, because there are enough real-life examples given for the brain's mechanics to help someone figure out what's going on with themselves... and THAT'S worth the price of admission: the repetitive, pedantic way he makes sure we remember what he covered in Chapter 4 and the sometimes unnecessary illustrations.
It is actually a good thing, that he's written this way despite how it bothered me and I resisted it. It finally sinks in that this is the way our habits, personality traits, and those "hangover effects" from experiencing abuse... our old, currently dysfunctional coping strategies... were created in the first place... and it is also the process for creating "something completely different". I also liked his definition for what we call "letting go" of something.... it is simply to shift our concentrated attention to something ELSE. Point well taken, I think. If our attention is on something that brings us joy or peace or contentment... we're not experiencing the other negative stuff, you know? and repeated often enough and long enough... then the negative, in real terms, isn't such a big part of our lives (if we agree that what we experience through our days, weeks, years ARE our lives). This definition of letting go is the only one to date, that I can agree with wholeheartedly. Everything else I ran across, worked with... just wasn't complete for me; something was missing... or it was silly and I couldn't subscribe to it... or as in the case of forgiveness - it only created another conflict of meaning with accountability; a fuzzy, gray-shaded boundary of no-mans land... it just didn't function right for me.
This however, is easy for me to start immediately... to remember to practice... and I was already doing that - I just didn't associate it with "letting go". DUH. This isn't the same thing as "forgetting"; it's simply paying attention to something that feels better than the old stuff.
There are lots of "DUH-moments" in what I'm processing - things that I didn't learn because of the circumstances of my life in the past. But instead of spending time, energy and attention mourning the loss of those basic things or longing for relationships that never existed... well, I can just say "OK, that makes sense. I didn't know that before"... and move on to the next step.
See ya guys in a little while.
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"Chronic invalidation" well-names the process I think..or rather, feel.
"letting go" of something.... it is simply to shift our concentrated attention to something ELSE. Point well taken, I think. If our attention is on something that brings us joy or peace or contentment... we're not experiencing the other negative stuff, you know?
Been doing this for a while now, very occasionally doing it mindfully, mostly finding myself doing it and noting it as it occurs or after the events, if that makes sense. It is pleasant to recognise.
The terms 'letting go' and 'forgiveness' have little meaning in some areas of things that are tucked away inside my head. They are irrelevant as everyday terms...but if I take a step back...letting go is simply recognising 'attachment' for what it is..and forgiveness is recognising how people are built: noone is responsible for how they were 'built', but we hold them responsible for their adult (loose term) behaviour because, because it meets the needs of society. Not because it's morally correct, but because it works in a practical way. The moral part is where we want them to change and feel remorse which I guess is our collective attachment to ......a good world. Neutrality is very difficult and I'm not sure it should be a goal......although....it's a very peaceful position. 8) Aurgh! :roll:
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To start finishing up this whole area of topic...
I decided that it simply doesn't matter if I am persuaded that our brains generate the chemicals that we are aware of through our body... and that this is ALL emotions are. I can still work with this as a provisional premise, even if I'm not totally convinced of this. Somehow, I still "feel" that emotions are a little more than this combination of thoughts/chemicals experienced physically in a feedback loop... but I can accept for instance, that meditation or tai chi can activate and condition the parasympathetic nervous system and enough experience of this can counteract chronic runaway thoughts or anxiety. Or that addiction itself is a feedback loop, involving dopamine and other chemicals that "feeds" the body what it thinks it wants/needs.
So... that begs the question of whether the body itself has intelligence, or if it simply has a 1/0 perception - on/off, feels good/bad - like some bio-switch. Is it the body that sends out an immune response to heal a scratch? Or is it the brain? Or is the brain part of the body... and if so who's in charge? The book I read also proposes that some magical chemical combination of brain and body creates the "mind"... and supposedly the "mind" is in charge, in a smoothly functioning system (i.e., person). Ah... but then things get too complicated... with the automatic brain processes related to body (like breathing)... and unconscious, subconscious... and what we normally call "consciousness" - which is still subject to the telescope like lens of perception and attention-focus.
If I haven't lost ya yet, what occurred to me... in trying to "translate" or create a dictionary of understandings between our emotional language and this neuroscience approach... is that in my own case, I've let my body dictate to my brain what my habits will be. It goes against everything I rationally know to smoke, I've lost people whom I really cared about, because of smoking. I tried to find some emotional "key" to unlock whatever un- or subconscious process would let me gain control over that habit. But I should've been looking for that emotional key in the body, rather than my mind.
THIS is still total conjecture/theory/guessing on my part... but what I think is going on, is that I'm highly aware of my body states... and by fixing my attention on how my body feels... I'm actually letting it decide or choose what I do - whether it's good for me or not. How I became so aware is probably a combination of DNA, and the turning inward of attention via the environment of invalidation soup that I experienced in my FOO, and perhaps also my unique reaction to the high level of shame I felt - some of which, really wasn't mine even though it was tossed in my direction and "pinned" on me.
The flip side of that body-awareness is psychosomatic symptoms, for me. Particularly, stress-related. Particularly, anything emotional or a conflict... anything involving my mother or brother... and also my new "role" of business owner, because it's finally my job to make the choices and decisions instead of being told what to do... and then trying to confront my own self and make these "habit changes" I want (intellectually). My body can raise such resistance and misery for me... that it seems to want to be in control of deciding and choosing... instead of respecting my mind's rational understanding, limits and desires. The body "mind" can even be pro-active and create panic, anxiety, physical pain and discomfort through muscles and skin eruptions to even keep me from starting or sticking with a plan of change. It can literally "fight" me... and seems to have a mind of it's own, though that's limited and doesn't have the neo-cortex's higher reasoning capability.
Just coming to this understanding or description of what I think is going on with me, is quite enough to send my body into overdrive to create pain and misery to stop me pursuing this path. My old shoulder injury flared up worse than I've experienced since I was 12; lots of nerve based referred pain, as well. I have an old friend who's a PT and her suggestion of ice (instead of heat) has helped. Then, I am going through a case of hives -- either that, or some insect has been making a huge meal of me, un-noticed (hardly likely). I had hives way back when, too... and was told that I was allergic to chocolate (not true)... it was most definitely a reaction to a specific kind of stress, involving serious change. The only other time I experienced this was for a month or so, when I graduated high school and was making plans to leave home and never return.
What brought all this on, is that I reversed a common strategy for smoking-cessation. My body-brain is programmed for more, more, more with absolutely no concept of "too much of a good thing". So the tracking of my smoking - recording each one that I smoked - actually backfired; it was like my body was trying to get a higher score! I've tried this maybe 10 times, with exactly the same results until I finally gave up. This time, what I'm doing is counting backwards - I'm writing down how many I choose to smoke today (always moving to lower numbers, gradually) - and then crossing off the highest number as I smoke one.
In effect, I rationally, consciously imposed a limit on the body's nicotine/dopamine appetite that it isn't smart enough to get control over or sabotage... so it's venting discomfort via the psychosomatic symptoms above. I didn't really anticipate this reaction; I was still working out the ideas about emotions - body chemicals - etc. But this whole theory make SO much sense to me, given that the ONLY time my mom paid attention to "how I felt"... was when I presented physical symptoms to her; at least, until the time I finally turned all that inward on myself -- and then her physical approach to my "discomfort" was completely inappropriate and only made my emotional distress even worse...
... and that paragraph above, reminds me of the movie inception: a dream within a dream within a dream - only it's multiple feedback loops instead... in different programming languages between my brain, emotions and body. I keep wondering if I might just be making myself nuts... trying to work through this by myself - with only hubs' feedback. But I don't think so.
It seems to me, given the specific physical ailments I'm experiencing, that I've struck a little too "close to home" - spot on even, with this new approach and some other things I'm working on simultaneously. It's too coincidental that it's exactly the same physical stuff I experienced in reaction to my mom's denial that I'd been raped, you know? And I've observed that with the counting down technique -- I pay attention to it once in the morning, so I'm not spending a lot time thinking about smoking - just crossing off this one... and just like the opposite process clicked into the more-more-more... this process, seems to leave a few not crossed off - and so not smoked - at the end of the day. With no typical withdrawal symptoms or cravings. Go figure.
The other association I can make with the idea that my body thinks it can make decisions; is in charge... is that this is exactly what my mom drummed into my head... this was her "technique" for dealing with emotions - all emotions. It's like she got the old wives' tale about fevers and colds all twisted up: feed a "feeling"... so it goes away, changes, you don't feel it anymore... more-more-more (because it doesn't work, you know?). And I've got a whole wagon-load of feelings about my mom - still - that it's friggin' pointless to express to her; that venting here hasn't removed, though they are less intense and importantin my daily activity... and I'm currently disobeying the mom-law of feeding those feelings some substance to make them disappear... so I think I need to do some intentional "letting go" via limiting my exposure to thoughts of those feelings - and my mom in general. Maybe that'll help with the physical symptoms... we'll see.
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YAY! I finally got to the "nutshell" version of what I'm trying to say.
Just like my mom "helped" me get the definitions/meanings of certain words for feelings all scrambled - like turning "excitement" into anxiety or dread...
she also helped teach me to scramble up mind-body-emotion... the normal working hierarchy and "order of control". Because she couldn't tell a physical sensation from a pure emotional feeling... she made sure I couldn't either. Therefore, when I did experience the difference.... a.) I was completely totally sure I was losing it and b.) that made me a "problem" for her.
God, I wish it wasn't so hard to see what's so damn simple.
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Wow. So we're the problem if we're not like zombies. Yup. We're the weird ones and must be controlled.
she couldn't tell a physical sensation from a pure emotional feeling
that's fairly unhealthy eh Amber? I think so. It takes some dredging to get to the bottom of that one. Nicely put.
And, as that idea has stayed with me, I have to ask: just what disorder, or illness, produces that effect? We're not talking just Nism here I think? Interesting.
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I don't know that this has a name, Guest. It might just be a symptom of several different, recognized disorders.
Hence, my interest in neuroscience... something chemically - yet almost "mechanical" - is OFF or non-functional in a big way. I don't think it's the complete answer... but it's at least another framework for trying to think about it.
At the same time, I have to confront myself on why I bought into this. It's just so nutz and so far from my own way of thinking about, seeing, being... sigh. I guess survival is enough of an explanation. Living long enough to figure this particular weirdness out. For me, at least.
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Living long enough to figure this particular weirdness out.
resonates a lot with me Amber; although...many days I think to myself, about my past situation (and it is not my present, if you see what I mean) that it was what it was and whatever the causes, reasons, labels...it is over for me, in terms of my connection to it..yes there is the past and its effects today, yes there are still people alive, but I have changed and irrevocably too (can you tell I just wrote a legal note? bah). Living long enough to figure it out, I dunno, oddly for me my curiosity here maybe has a limit. But I doubt it. I probably don't have enough knowledge about the brain; I probably have been too darn whacked out by events of the last three years. I feel mentally tired so that dealing with the stupidity I have to deal with atm is about all I can do, even with the involved and thoughtful help of my partner.You keep going but people and their behaviours take a toll. Anger is a reasonable energy-giver but then that takes a lot of energy so that you live in fits and starts; not forgetting the ever-present background low hum of uncertainty, which some days makes me smile with the strangeness of it. You can learn to live with anything, absorb it.
Maybe the thing that is off is akin to autism of some kind, or similar. Way beyond my readings but with my family background there are things that even now I have no idea of the diagnosis or label and I'm not sure the FOO members do. Perhaps similar to your example here. I really don't know. I survived too, that was enough.
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Guest, I hear ya! I believe that I've "worn out" my brain trying to figure all this out... and as you say, I've changed too.
This only comes up while I'm still trying to make even more changes - in me - and the question why? always points back to the same old, same old. But I do have this lovely collection of explanations now! Haha... so many different ways to see it.
I've still got a long ways to go, with my own self-neglect/self-abuse habits and it's going to take a lonnnng time to get to the "downhill" section of the learning - replacing - making a new habit as "automatic" as the old ones... but shucks, that's no more interesting than what I had for dinner last night! or housework or pulling weeds in a large yard or....
it's all just chop wood; carry water now...
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everything is chop wood carry water...............
whatever it is.
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So... one day this thought just popped into my head, that I had a "thinking/doing" self... and another almost, not quite separate - feeling/emotional/being self. Working with this, as I went about my life... I was finally able to see how much toxic shame had attached to this emotional "self".
How/why all that shame got attached to my poor little emotional self, doesn't really matter now. I've told that story 100 times, it feels like. Telling it, however, FEELS better these days; less "shameful"... because no; people don't recoil in horror and disgust of ME... only of what I lived through and the perpetrators. They understand much what I continue to deal with, because of entanglement with my FOO that doesn't look feasible to break apart through NC. Much as that is what I'd prefer.
[Back to the point, Amber.] Which is that the whole schema of self-harm; sabotage; smoking; etc that I want to permanently edit from as much as my life as makes sense (or is possible) for a human... is a way to avoid feeling the knee-jerk reaction of shame... simply because I FEEL _____. Pick a feeling, any feeling... any emotional intensity... normal or triggered. Any emotion at all brings with it some amount of shame in the mix. Even happy, positive feelings... and this really SUCKS. It does, however, explain why I have trouble allowing myself to play, enjoy things, and have fun.
The resistance I observe that wells up when denying myself a cigarette... is a deep desire to avoid FEELING, because of the attached kicker of the shame (perhaps this is what that other damn shoe, that keeps dropping, IS). Smoking is a substitute for filling a lot of other (healthier) needs; already established that. What is new, is noticing that this is the mechanism I use to avoid feeling... so I can avoid the possibility of that old shame.
Of course, thinking Amber can't believe how impossibly rediculous (or worse condemnation) this situation is. And that only serves up another flavor of shame... because I am both thinking/feeling Amber. I need some collaboration here between both Ambers, to crack apart this old association of any feeling with shame. Feeling Amber needs to let go the fear of shame, for having her feelings... and thinking Amber needs to work on ways to enable and support that letting go -- with kindness and understanding, instead of only more verbal/emotional abuse - excessive expectations, shaming, and criticism.
Thinking Amber needs to understand that being shamed for feeling, is also a form of emotional abuse -- it's like being slapped for breathing, because how can one not feel or not breathe? Thinking Amber is really good at identifying threats, deflecting them, neutralizing them... ANY potential threat... yet this part of me, is continuing the old old awful harm I suffered as a child in my FOO environment. Instead, it would make more sense... if thinking Amber protected feeling Amber, you know? Made it "safe" to feel... and recognized and neutralized the reflex shame response.
I know, I used to think that smoking was like putting a 10 ft pole between feeling Amber and people who had proved that hurting me was their main purpose in life. People who didn't have the word "sorry" in their vocabulary. People who didn't believe me, when I told them the truth. Stay back - I stink and can burn you. Boundary enforcement, to keep the bad out. But it was also used to keep the shame in -- don't look, it's too awful, you'll be sick - yuck.
It was also an "expression"... a way of getting the feelings outside of me -- without saying the words that brought shame, too. A multipurpose tool... and the added bonus was, that it somehow gave more energy to thinking Amber and quieted down feeling Amber (the pacifier effect).
The clue to all this, happened years ago. I was in-between therapy work. We'd taken a break and all confident in myself, I put together this CBT based toolkit and workbook to quit smoking. Signed up for the support group online... picked a quit date beginning my 2 week vacation. Had all the rewards and replacements all picked out... I only lasted maybe 48 hours. I was so grouchy, angry, touchy I was arguing with hubs constantly. So we just stopped talking. Withdrew. Not having fun on vacation. I retreated under a blanket out on a quiet hammock... and cried in total misery. Alone and miserable and SHAMED - I didn't matter; my needs didn't matter... I realized that this was how I used to feel -- before I started smoking. And then I bought cigarettes to end the misery and save the remainder of vacation. That started the whole Twiggy discovery and exploration, back in therapy, for another few years.
And I wonder if now, using an emotional approach - permission to feel whatever (without criticism), ma'am! - permission to eat (healthy) when hungry, sit down and rest when tired, permission to enjoy being with friends and feeling happy without a 10 ft. pole ----- I might broker a truce between thinking/feeling Ambers... and just stop smoking. Paying attention ONLY to knowing those needs, and addressing them... and not substituting in the old camels. Not that I expect it to work without a lot of practice; that I'll get it right without having to redesign and refine... adjust... and thinking Amber is going to have to understand that failure IS an option... in the beginning... and I'll just repurpose the old 10 ft pole and run up my pirate flag for fun.
I'm not at all sure this is going to work... but hell, I've tried everything else! :D
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I think this is HUGE, Amber:
the whole schema of self-harm; sabotage; smoking; etc that I want to permanently edit from as much as my life as makes sense (or is possible) for a human... is a way to avoid feeling the knee-jerk reaction of shame... simply because I FEEL _____. Pick a feeling, any feeling... any emotional intensity... normal or triggered. Any emotion at all brings with it some amount of shame in the mix. Even happy, positive feelings... and this really SUCKS.
I love what you said about letting your thinking (adult, confident) self set about encouraging the feeling (shame-stuck) self that it IS okay to not be ashamed. It's okay to feel "clean happy".
Wowsers.
Hops
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tt - thanks for that quote!! I like it so much, I'm going to use it as my tagline. I need reminding that failure is not fatal... and that success is only another step in a specific direction.
Hopsy, dear... yes, this is huge (for me). It's incredibly helpful, too.... there have been a number of "topics" that I've been working on - even though I was at the sky-high, immovable object, brick wall stage with it for so long - that start to crumble under this one simple personal truth: I was ashamed of my feelings. Period. All of them. Being a feeling creature... a sentient being.
I don't know yet, how this will impact those personal, self-work tasks I've set myself... but I'm working with a partner, off the board, and she's helped me get to this idea as we've simply chatted about our own work and thought about each other's situations and issues... that it's my "thinking" self heaping re-runs of the old crap on my "feeling" self... so that any emotion is always coupled with that old toxic shame (concatenated, even!**)... and that all my rationalizations and complex ideas are nothing but desperate attempts to avoid feeling that cocktail of crap. Thinking self isn't even aware of that... because it's so entertained by it's own babble, or pretty shiny objects, or whatever sensory input is directly in front of it at the moment.
Poor thinking self is such a parrot; and it's cursed with a memory that's as retrievable for content as you-tube. Nothing's ever archived to tape backup and removed from the server... sigh. Thinking self, is just the Watson part of me... powerful, yes... but it STILL needs to be told "what" it's supposed to be doing... instead of just spinning it's cycles through different processing algorhythms. And the "what" comes from "want"... and oh gee! THAT'S an answer only "feeling" self can provide...
Thinking self needs to f'in HEAR feeling self... and instead of putting her down or ignoring her, pay attention! Help, support, create ways to provide what feeling self needs. Simple to say. Perhaps not overly difficult to do... we'll see.
tt - I saw your concatenate post the other day, while all the raw materials for this one thought-idea were arranging themselves in my mind. In computer code, concatenated tables are joined with an "and" statement... not either/or, and not even "if then, else".
One of my bigger previous aha moments, was when I realized I was allowed be to an AND in myself... instead of always committed to a specific choice. Thinking AND Feeling = Integrated (whole, etc). And that this perfectly natural for me... my NORMAL.
I'm not entirely sure how the idea that thinking was better than feeling; or that thinking was safer than... was was more valued in society or ... whatever... got stuck in my head. Let's just say I was "dis-abused" of the idea that feelings were important AND that was the bane of my existence!!!!! How and why doesn't matter to me anymore. What matters is the "proper arrangement"... thinking self can advise and inform... but then, carry out the wishes and whims of feeling self... is created and maintained in a way that satisfies both of them. Sort of a "management re-organization".
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I'm not sure exactly where I learned to do this thing I do -- I sure don't know what to call it! I have used the word "synthesize" to describe how I can see patterns in unrelated things and associate them in meaningful ways. When these kinds of moments come along where the patterns have been combined and have their own standalone meaning... I usually have to re-evaluate a whole lot of things... because my perspective been has shifted so much it both feels different and I think new things as a result of that one "new thing". It definitely feels "good" to do/be/feel something different. :) AND, I'm noticing there seem to be a lot of moments that could be filled with feelings... instead of just being on my way to the "next thing".
I seem to vaguely recall the idea that all the answers we ever really want or need are all around us, in life.... if only we open our ears to hear, our eyes to see, our minds to think... our hearts to feel. So when I see those patterns in places I wasn't really looking for them... I start to think... and feel... and think with my feelings... and feel what's missing, out of place, or "not working" in my thinking.
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((((Amber))),
If this makes sense, it's what pops:
Don't program yourself.
Love yourself.
(Meaning, feel that. Encourage that.)
xo
Hops
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Indeed, Hops... just so.
AND... stop fearing the shame-reaction... because I already know it so well, having lived with it all my life - how can it hurt me further? I have so throughly, and deeply stirred the old cesspool... repeatedly... there is nothing else there to fear knowing about myself. I've learned the lessons one needs to, from that. Check that box!
A long, long time ago... a very dear friend told me I wasn't a naturally "bad" person; but that I wasn't a saint, either. I was still close enough to Twiggy-hood then, that I was flat out raw, defenseless (but extremely defensive!), naive and scared out of my beaded moccasins about being a grown up and moving away from my mother-home to go to college. So I unconsciously deliberately sabotaged it -- and hooked up with ex #1... such a flaming N, then and now -- because I was afraid of finding myself afraid living in a city, hours from home, failing or making mistakes or not being "good enough"... and having to return to mom... and the damn shame.