Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: flower on November 14, 2004, 08:04:15 PM
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Hi everyone,
This past week, we received a package from my parents. (I got several days mixed up from my husband's night shift work and my tendency to stay up too late.) Anyway I posted this earlier:
Yesterday, we received a package from them with no message inside. Inside the package was a photo of my great grandmother and her sons. (dad's side of the family), a political periodical and some collectibles my mom keeps sending my children. I plainly told them to stop giving us gifts. They refuse to listen. It seemed almost silly of them. But they did break a boundary again.
I'd like input about the merits of destroying the package and not saying a word to my parents vs. sending back the package to them,all in the light of what is wise to do in regard to Ns. So far we have just been throwing things away. I have been trying to do a no contact policy. But I started wondering if they would take it that I accepted their package if I don't return the package. Any ideas on enforcing the boundary? Usually I don't care what they think. I guess the difference this time is that I don't really want to destroy an antique picture of my ancestors from the late 1800s/ early 1900s, yet I don't want to accept it. (I could destroy the picture though, for therapy reasons) I love photography, a hobby of mine, and old photos and have been interested in my ancestors, although my parents have shared little about their parents and grandparents. My dad did share a little about himself and my mom a little about herself growing up. (mostly complaints about her parents) My dad, though, seems to have intense pride in his family name.
My parents, in the past, drew me back to them with gifts and I don't want to take accept their bait. They have used the social influence of reciprocity to get me to come back to them without them having to admit their wrongdoing. Also other alternatives to my two options of what to do above would be interesting. Thanks
P.S. If you are wondering about my age and ages, my grandfather was about forty-two when he married my grandmother who was about twenty-three.
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Hi Flower,
If you hadn't opened the package, I would suggest writing "RETURN TO SENDER" on it and put it back in the mail. You can't enforce a boundary on their putting packages in the mail. You can enforce a boundary where the package doesn't get opened or stay in your home.
Since you've already opened this package, my advice is to do nothing. All they want is a reaction. If you restate some boundary, they get their reaction. My suggestion is to let it ride.
bunny
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Hi Flower,
I agree with those who have already said not to open all future packages, and mark them "return to sender".
If you have not been returning them, just like you wondered, I also wonder if they might take this as a small "in" they still have with you, in that you are looking at what they send and keeping emotionally attached to them that way.
So far, they keep sending so they might think it is working at some level, to try to get to you.
After many times (it might take that) of "return to sender" without any other comments or contact about it, hopefully, they might quit.
Good luck.
BT
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Kelly here: Maybe I am reading this wrong but I don't see anything wrong with them giving you old family stuff. My ex's grandma gave me a bunch of salt shakers that she had been collecting all her life. She wanted all the grandchildren to have some of her collection. I graciously thanked her and put them in the china closet.
I understand that when an nparent gives us anything (or does anything, or says anything) it is emotionally charged and our reactions tend to be over the top (well, at least mine do.)
If there was no propaganda inside (although the political stuff is suspect - if they were trying to get you to agree with them polictically) then just take the stuff and write "old family photos and memorabilia" on the outside and stick the box in the attic. Then maybe in 50 years you can cash in on one of those antique roadshow shows!!!
Of course, you know your parents and their motives better than I do. But I don't think this constitutes a "gift," does it? I think of a gift as something that they might use to obligate you to themselves. How do old pictures do that? Unless they are trying to make you understand that you are a part of the "family" and as such you should shut up, straighten up and do what you are told!!!!
Who knows? Sorry if I am way off........I just don't think a box of old stuff is such a big deal.
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Send it back with RETURN TO SENDER. My mother finally quit with the damned letters after I was CONSISTENT about mailing them back.
This is their last "in," unless you nip it in the bud.
It's so childish of them, so like a child, you have to keep saying it over and over--I DO NOT WANT THIS. LEAVE ME ALONE.
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Hi Kelly,
I think the bothersome feelings are not related to the content of the packages whatsoever, but rather to emotional boundaries and manipulative issues behind it all, where the parents were asked not to send gifts (for good reasons known to the asker) period.
The content of the gifts were particularly sneaky and relevant in showing the manipulation in trying to pull at the heart-strings with family oriented packages, but not really the focal point in other ways.
BT
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Oh, I get it. It's like when I tell my mom I don't want to talk about work outside of work and then she talks about work. And when I call her on it, then she justifies it by saying something like, "Well we never get the opportunity to talk about it at work."
Or when I tell her not to manipulate me into going to church - but if anyone is in from out of town, the call comes that since they are in town, just maybe I would like to meet them at church.
OK, so maybe any box with any thing inside it constitutes a lack of personal boundaries which were set and violated. THEN, I say DO NOTHING. Not even the return to sender bit. Because if she gets it back unopened with return to sender on it then she will feel some kind of victory. However, if you say nothing, then she'll think she got through to you. BUT - you don't want to throw away old pics and stuff................boy that's a tough one.
Here's a goofy thought. How about sending it to her next door neighbor and asking them to deliver it to her.....and have them tell her that the return address says something like Oakview Funny Farm, or Narcissitics Anonymous.....................
Kelly
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Flower- How timely! That and your letter dream. I had a birthday last week. Three years ago on my birthday I made it clear I wanted no connection with my dad and his wife. I wrote them a letter stating that as as long as they still regarded me as a child that they had a right and responsibility to make decisions for, that I wanted nothing to do with them. (This stems from an inheritance issue I have with him- him controlling through withholding. It is much more to me than just the money.) So last year when the birthday card came once agin, I got right in my car and drove to the post office. Dropped it in the box "RTS". My mom was angry and dismayed at my insenitivity. What if he should have a heart attack was her question? "Not my problem", I replied. "I will not be responsible for his bad health." That is what he'd say about me. Ironic, huh?
His next strategy was to take my mom out to lunch- something he has never done. He resents that I have anything to do with her really. But now he was sucking up, wanting to know how we were doing- oh so casual and so concerned. I was outraged at first at what he was doing, because I know his disregard for her except for the minimal interest if she should ever be in a position where she really needed him. My view of this is that it is more about his needs to seem himself in some benevolent form. The patriarchal supplier.That he lives a life of excess and indulgence, while she is barely scraping by is of no concern to him. Of course I was mad at her as well. She fell into the flattery, and came away telling me how really kind he was.
I kept my mouth shut. I figured that in the end it would only frustrate him. He was just getting a fix for now, but he was still on the other side of the boulder, so to speak. Next he targeted my sister. Which again only served to catch him in his own snare. My sister is having her own rebellion with him, with God and the Church as her platform. He hates that, anything to do with religion he views as giving away your power. And my sister intersperses the "Good Lord" into just about every sentence she utters.
About that time is when I cut out of this board for awhile, taking out my posts.
Years ago he came into my place of work and went around asking my my coworkers about me. These people were my friends. It was embarrassing. I did not know what to say to them when they asked about his questions. What was he wanting to know? They were looking at me with new interest of a darker side they may have missed. There was none. I had always been so good... Oh it makes me so upset to still think of this! Because of this, I don't trust the lengths to which he will go to pry into my life.
This year- wow! no Birthday card. I felt victorious and relieved, because I didn't want another confrontation with my mom. My birthday passed uneventful, quiet.
Two nights ago I had a dream- there were two envelopes in the mail from my dad. They looked like cards, but different at the same time. I can't quite put my finger on what it is. Like they contained something more than just a birthday card. They were thicker, stiff, and the envelope was a pale yellowish color. It almost looked business like.
One of the envelopes was addressed to me, the other was to "The Foghead". Where I live, their is a radio station KFOG. Listeners consider themselves "Fogheads". I listen occasionally. I think the term "Foghead" is more the suggestion that I am in the "fog" about the cards- I don't know what is in them, or what is the intention. In my dream my thoughts went to what to do about them- I felt that I should open them. In the dream I decided if there was a birthday check I would take the cards and check and put them away.
Stash them in a drawer somewhere.
I feel something important is heading my way. I really don"t know what to expect. But in this, I realize it doesn't matter whether I send them back or keep them, or even cash the check . It no longer matters. I am out of reach of my father in the most crucial way, the way I have worked so hard this year for. He can't touch me, and I believe know he knows it.
At one point several months ago I dropped my pursuit to get my inheritance through legal means. One day I realized that it just wasn't worth it. That even if I won, I would not have peace. So I just let it go. I am really happy about that decision, and have not thought different since. Sometimes you just know an action (or inaction) is the right thing to do, even if you don't know why.
My thoughts for you are to follow your heart. Stand strong if that is what you need to do. Your feelings may be complex about this situation. I wouldn't take a "black or white" approach to it. I would explore the different feelings and be led by what feels most right to you at any given moment. In this given instance my thoughts are with the other posters who say don't send it back, now that it is opened.
Good luck in whatever decison you make. I will share with you what the envelopes mean as soon as I know. 8) Phoenix
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Just a thought -
I opened and kept a package that NMom gave me a few years ago. She said she was cleaning out stuff she didn't want, and gave me a box of old photos. I opened it when I got home and it was a box of old photos of ME! I couldn't believe my eyes, because I had never seen any of them before, and if I had just tossed the box, I would have missed out on something very precious. After I recovered from the initial shock of realizing what she was throwing away, realizing what she did not want, I took those precious old photos of her unloved child and made a collage of them, and have it hanging in our bedroom. When I see my little baby face, I think "What's not to love?!! Only a crazy person wouldn't love that cute little girl!" Now, I am learning to love that innocent little child. That, in itself, has been very healing for me, and I thought I'd pass my experience on, in hopes that it will help....
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A very similar thing happened to me.
I opened and kept a package that NMom gave me a few years ago. She said she was cleaning out stuff she didn't want, and gave me a box of old photos. I opened it when I got home and it was a box of old photos of ME! I couldn't believe my eyes, because I had never seen any of them before, and if I had just tossed the box, I would have missed out on something very precious. After I recovered from the initial shock of realizing what she was throwing away, realizing what she did not want, II took those precious old photos of her unloved child and made a collage of them, and have it hanging in our bedroom. When I see my little baby face, I think "What's not to love?!! Only a crazy person wouldn't love that cute little girl!" Now, I am learning to love that innocent little child. That, in itself, has been very healing for me...
About 2 years ago I received a box of old photos of me and old report cards, even my Bible from Sunday School, etc. It gave me such a wonderful feeling to open that Bible and see the words my little hand had written so very long ago -- and to see my report cards, with good grades and positive comments from my teachers. Every day I look at a particular picture of me (I think I have posted this before) with a sad look on my little face (I have no memory of the picture or the dress or anything), but I tell that little girl I love her each day. I wish I had a toy or school work or drawings or a dress or shoes or something from my childhood that I could hold. I saved lots of stuff for my boys and I hope someday they will be happy that I did.
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I too have a photo of myself when I was two years old and about three years ago I framed it and put it in a place to remind myself that I was just a little helpless girl and deserved love just because I existed. Actually I did this because of the book recommended by Dr. Grossman called "the Narcissitic Family". Sometimes you have to remind yourself that you were actually a little tiny kid and you didn't have the actual power to do many of the things that Ns accuse you of doing...in my case, my Mom said we kids did things just to bug her (yeah, I was just thinking up ways to get her wrath, not just being a normal little kid).
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Kelly here. It's funny. My mom has a picture of me and my brother in her bathroom - we are really little kids....................she has said on a number of occasions......................."What happened to that sweet little girl.......?" I guess I was compliant back then - now I am a b*tch, I guess!!
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That was an obnoxious thing for your Mom to say, Kelly. I think we both know who the real "B" is.
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kelly here: The thing that just keeps popping up here is that we are all on a different part of the continuum. We all have suffered some pretty devastating things in our pasts, and we are all trying to set boundaries. Sometimes we hatchet those boundaries. Sometimes we try a more discreet approach. Regardless, hopefully we are all on a mission to get better not bitter!!
Phoenix said it well...........go with your heart. Do what feels right. My friend told me to go where you feel the most peace..........................
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My friend told me to go where you feel the most peace..........................
I really like that. Beautiful phrase, and I believe soooo much that our "gut", our intuition tells us what is best for us...
I find that it is my mind and all of the analyzing (and hopeful rationalizing) that I do, that often interferes with that & causes me not to listen when I don't...
I am so much a feeling kind of person, and it's really something valuable to remember & repeat... "follow the path where the peaceful feeling is"...
BT
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Go Where You Feel The Most Peace..........................that's it.
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Flower, you done good. They are a bit of poison. You are doing what you need to do to protect yourself. Kudos to a no longer "delicate" flower but a beautiful one none the less.
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Hi Flower,
Everything you said so eloquently makes so much sense, and I'm also really very glad to know that you are at a clear place, and feel good and strong, and peaceful in where you stand :D
BT
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Hi (((((Flower))))),
I can just sense how painful this is. And I know what my Nmom's stupid tactics do to me for a week or two after. It stays with you. You wonder what they are thinking, what they are trying to prove this time, how far they will go to get you to react.....
I think N parents give gifts because they see it as a power act. They feel powerful giving something and expect you to regress to the kid you used to be when they first started getting you gifts. And no matter what the gift is, they expect you to love it and fall all over them with appreciation. BUT...they could never act the same when they are on the receiving end. Because when you give them a gift it makes them feel like you are trying to be in control of them - because that is why they give you gifts....
It's a vicious circle!
I learned a valuable lesson from my 15 year old son in October. My Nmom sent him a card with a letter saying she couldn't talk to him on his 15th birthday because I wouldn't let her. I was enraged for a couple weeks because it was a lie and she knew it.
But now that I've had time to think about it, I gained some perspective of how to handle the next situation.
My Nmom sent him a check and the letter in the card. He read the letter, laughed, threw it on the ground and said "I don't care what she says, she sent me money and I'm gonna spend it. I don't care about her but I really want the money".
Some responded when I wrote that then about how I maybe shouldn't let the kids be bought by the money. But as I watched my son, he really didn't give a sheat about what she said. He never gave her another thought. But he had a blast spending the money - it was only $25.00 but he had money to spend.
So I decided to take a kids perspective the next time. Keep what I want, forget about the rest, enjoy myself.
If my Nparents want to spend their time trying to provoke me, let them waste their time that way. Using my time to fret about it is exactly what they want. If I can be more like my kids and use the Ns when it is to my benefit, like they have done to me all my life, but cut out the emotions, I am a happier person.
I will be challenged with Christmas coming, but I don't think it will be too difficult. I know they will send the kids money. I know they will try to get at me with letters and crap. They may even send us money as they have in past years. One year I was so angry at them I sent back the check they gave my H and I. But they never mentioned it later so I didn't even know how they felt about getting it back. They just ignored it as they do other uncomfortable situations.
So if they send money again, by god, I'll spend it and have fun. I will spend it on things they would absolutely disapprove of and laugh at their insanity of trying to bring me back to being their child.
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Ellie,
This puts together another section of the puzzle for me.
I think N parents give gifts because they see it as a power act. They feel powerful giving something and expect you to regress to the kid you used to be when they first started getting you gifts. And no matter what the gift is, they expect you to love it and fall all over them with appreciation. BUT...they could never act the same when they are on the receiving end. Because when you give them a gift it makes them feel like you are trying to be in control of them - because that is why they give you gifts....
That explains it. I could never figure out why my NM appeared to be so "generous" with her gifts, but could never accept one graciously in return. NOW I get it.
Thanks,
Singer
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I couldn't help thinking about the legend of the Trojan horse when I read all your comments above...
You know the old saying, 'Beware of Greeks bearing gifts'?
This is why....
After ten years of fruitless military efforts, the Achaeans realized that Troy perhaps could be taken by cunning instead of by force, and this insight invited them to construct a WOODEN HORSE, which was to become the instrument of their victory. They let an armed force hide itself inside the horse, and in order to induce the Trojans to bring it within the walls, they left it abandoned in the plain, feigning retreat after engraving on the horse a treacherous inscription
....They basically said it had been given as a kind of offering/gift.
Once it was within the walls, the armed force climbed out and wreaked havoc. Very symbolic.... What do you think Flower?
(I suppose any gift in the other direction would be seen by the 'Greeks' as suspicious purely because, to them, a gift was a means to gain entry where other means had failed)
It's a difficult one to handle.
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Gardener, that was an excellent analogy.
My dream:
Two nights ago I had a dream- there were two envelopes in the mail from my dad. They looked like cards, but different at the same time. I can't quite put my finger on what it is. Like they contained something more than just a birthday card. They were thicker, stiff, and the envelope was a pale yellowish color. It almost looked business like.
One of the envelopes was addressed to me, the other was to "The Foghead". Where I live, their is a radio station KFOG. Listeners consider themselves "Fogheads". I listen occasionally. I think the term "Foghead" is more the suggestion that I am in the "fog" about the cards- I don't know what is in them, or what is the intention. In my dream my thoughts went to what to do about them- I felt that I should open them. In the dream I decided if there was a birthday check I would take the cards and check and put them away.
This is weird, but then, so are dreams - the thick yellow envelopes are my father's fingernails! There was something familiar about those envelopes and at first I couldn't place what it was.
Anyone have any idea what fingernails might mean?
Also, I figured out who the foghead is: my mother. It is exasperating for me to see her fall prey to his false front. She truly is a foghead where it concerns my dad.
The envelopes may have been just a message- another death in my family- a Great aunt this time, 92 years old.
Phoenix
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Hey Guys! All this talk about parents giving gifts as a way to control and about unable to accept gifts. Never-ever thought of that before. One time I gave my mom a bottle of perfume and she NEVER used it. Then a couple years later she gave the full bottle of perfume to my three year old daughter to play with. Then one Christmas she told me she wanted a robe. I spent literally two hours looking and finally choosing a fluffy one. She immediately took it back for a silky one.
I haven't ever felt like she liked or appreciated my gifts....................I guess now I know why. Boy, once my brother bought both my mom and dad expensive bikes - they live right on a bike trail. They never used them.
Funny. Another thing I didn't realize. I haven't really gotten her a gift recently. I always seem to get her a plant with a balloon on it!
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http://nickm.com/dreams/alpha/f.html
It has an entry for fingernails under the "f" catagory on this page.
This site has the book Ten Thousand Dreams Interpreted
Gustavus Hindman Miller · 1901
What's in a Dream?
A Scientific and Practical Interpretation of Dreams
Don't know if that helps much though.
So sorry about the loss of the great aunt.
I've gotta go eat!
Great site - another to add to my dream favorites.
The entry for fingernail wasn't definitive enough, I guess I'll have to chew on it some more. No pun intended.
I haven't seen my Great Aunt for 30 years - I hardly remember her. So it was a formality on his part to need to tell us. You know, slip is way in.
Thank you for the sentiments anyway.
Whats for dinner? :D Phoenix
Ah! Just as I was going to submit, the thought came, "Hard as nails". :wink: