Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dr. Richard Grossman on July 30, 2011, 02:52:20 PM
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Hi everybody,
Do anti-depressants work? The debate continues in the Boston Globe:
An op-ed piece by Alex Beam: “Battling over happy pills” (7/26/2011)
http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/articles/2011/07/26/do_antidepressants_work/
A reply by Peter Kramer (“Listening to Prozac” author):
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/letters/articles/2011/07/30/plenty_of_evidence_to_support_pill_use/
And a reply by me:
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/letters/articles/2011/07/30/everyone_responds_differently_to_these_powerful_drugs/
All thoughts/comments are welcome!
Richard
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Thanks, Dr. G.
My family history is very similar to yours....multiple suicides on NWomb-Donor's side of the family and a WHOLE LOT of dysfunction on my father's side. Like you, I had lapsed into a dangerously deep depression after experiencing two deaths, within the immediate family, within a four month period. At the psychiatrist's urging, I did try Prozac. Its effect did not last long as I quickly developed a tolerance. (I told the psychiatrist of my history of addiction, which I feel is a factor when I experience drug tolerance.)
For those who may not be familiar with addictions and developing drug tolerance, what happens is that more and more of the substance is needed to achieve the same effect. Eventually, it reaches a point where the substance no longer has ANY effect at SAFE levels. Beyond that, the danger of overdose increases while addicts/alcoholics feel compelled to self-medicate and continue to increase their intake of the substance until the brain is damaged, (substance-induced insanity), and/or the body shuts down, (death).
Unfortunately for me, when I developed a tolerance for Prozac, my depression returned. What made things worse was that one of the side effects of the Prozac was that my weight blew up and I became dangerously obese. No matter what I did, my weight continued to increase. The psychiatrist kept insisting I should eat less and less, (which felt like a set-up for an eating disorder that I did NOT need). I had numerous arguments with the psychiatrist because he wanted to push benzodiazepines on me and I repeatedly told him that I have a history of ADDICTION to them and do NOT want them back! It was an insane merry-go-round that helped NOTHING! I finally stopped the anti-depressants altogether, and fired the psychiatrist because I had HAD ENOUGH!
I still live with depression as I also struggle with PTSD. (Growing up with a Narcissistic Rage-aholic is equivalent to living in a war zone!)
Bottom line, anti-depressants do not work for me and I'm not certain what an appropriate alternative would be available. I feel part of my issue is being unable to find an appropriate mental health professional WHO GETS IT about being a Survivor of a Narcissist as well as possibly being on the Autism Spectrum as an Aspie. (That's a long story in itself.)
I think I'll get off the soap-box for now.
Bones
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I am clinically depressed and have taken a variety of anti-depressants in my life. Have they cured the depression? No. Will they? No. However, during times when I was very severely depressed, when I was suicidal and unable to function in my life, the meds helped deal with the immediate symptoms (constant crying jags, need to over-sleep, etc.). I never really felt them "kick in" as I was told they would several weeks after taking them. Truth be told, I never felt the difference but those around me said during those severe times, the meds helped. I'm not convinced....but I also think they have a place when the goal is to get the individual in functioning mode so they can address the real causes of the depression.
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Hi Bones and Sunblue,
Thanks for your comments.
As I have posted here over the years, my belief is that depression is a complicated phenomenon—both biologically and also psychologically. My experience with Celexa—and again, one can only speak for oneself when talking about these drugs--was that it was crude. It was if all the information in my brain was being channeled through one small serotonergic happy circuit. To experiment when I was on the drug, I would try to get my brain to “hold onto” negative or painful thoughts. I couldn’t do it. So, of course my depression scale numbers dropped to “normal” levels. As a result, Celexa felt like a vacation drug—a nice, relaxing escape from real life. Still, it is a comfort to know that I’m always three weeks to the day away from being on vacation should I choose. No travel or passport required…
Richard
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I think medicating emotional pain as a substitute for healing it, is not good. I am sure they're overprescribed, because they are a symptom reliever, not a cure. And our insane culture IS something to be depressed about.
At the same time, I believe that for severe, life-squashing clinical depression, they are/can be miraculous.
For me, they were an extraordinary help until I received or established enough of the OTHER forms of help I needed in my life, that I became confident enough to stop taking them. And if I need them again, I'll take them gratefully.
I wouldn't want anyone who really needs them to be discouraged from taking them. They've saved lives.
I think what matters, or how to look at it, is to see if you have a T or a doctor who is respectful of your own thinking about medication.
When my T suggested I restart anti-depressants, I told him I would consider it. I got the new Rx, tried a few nights, side effects (not intolerable but real) began...and I paused. I personally really LIKE having to take less Rx (and I am definitely committed to my ADD Rx because of the extraordinary help it's been). Anyway, I thought about it.
REAL BEHAVIORS also change the brain. I know that from years of writing health books. am not doing all these religiously but I know the effects are real. I told him I didn't want to restart until I had given a fair try to these:
--excellent nutrition (I'm doing WAY less junk and have added a "green superfood" power shake 5 days/wk)
--regular exercise (I had just quit, in depression. I'm now walking about 4-5 mornings a week, and need more.)
--discipline about sleep (there's another Rx, but I am taking it earlier in the evening and getting more sleep)
--stopping self-isolation (I am back at church every Sunday and making weeknight friend-dates)
If I get to the max I can with all of these things, and fall again into a crushing depression, I will take anti-depressants again for a period with no hesitation at all.
Hops
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Hi Bones and Sunblue,
Thanks for your comments.
As I have posted here over the years, my belief is that depression is a complicated phenomenon—both biologically and also psychologically. My experience with Celexa—and again, one can only speak for oneself when talking about these drugs--was that it was crude. It was if all the information in my brain was being channeled through one small serotonergic happy circuit. To experiment when I was on the drug, I would try to get my brain to “hold onto” negative or painful thoughts. I couldn’t do it. So, of course my depression scale numbers dropped to “normal” levels. As a result, Celexa felt like a vacation drug—a nice, relaxing escape from real life. Still, it is a comfort to know that I’m always three weeks to the day away from being on vacation should I choose. No travel or passport required…
Richard
You're very welcome, Richard.
Bones
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I haven't weighed in on this topic, because I've not taken antidepressants (that I am aware of anyway).
But, tt brings up a point that connected with my experience of all drugs -- I too have some weird reactions to certain Rx; and have to start with the lowest dosage possible, or deal with unexpected effects. And I wonder, from the neuroscience perspective, if these drugs to alter brain/body function have these unexpected effects...
because our brains have developed differently, coping with our childhood difficulties?? Like our wires are crossed in areas of the brain... or in synapse connections... so that a drug to enhance positive emotions, say, would do the opposite in us (and perhaps that's why so many of the drugs list worsening depression and suicidal thoughts as a side effect)?
If that theory is true - even if only half the time - then perhaps my fear of these drugs makes sense. Because how would a T - much less the garden variety M.D. - know which patient had which type of brain? Heck, I didn't even know what evil lurked in my childhood brain, until my T helped me feel safe enough to unlock those old memories... and given my issue with self-harm... and the misuse of doctoring by my mom, for emotional pain... well. Even if someone gives me samples, I don't take them.
And perhaps my bigger issue with the current fashion in throwing these drugs at everyone is, why is everyone so sure that "happy" is the more normal state for humans?? How much "happy" is normal? Does that much happy cancel out empathy? Motivation to give to others? If one is totally 100% happy - there's not any inspiration, motivation, or creativity impulses are there? And how much depression warrants the experimentation with these drugs? Shouldn't you have to take a test or be evaluated for a certain level of depression to "qualify"? So that, one doesn't end up medicating a temporary emotional phase... which needs to resolve - in a more healthy fashion - on it's own.
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Hi Hops,
I agree with your post entirely. Anti-depressants have helped millions of people, and I’m glad they were invented. I will always remember one of my dear patients, decades ago, shortly before he died, laughing and telling me: “you should try one of these things!” (SSRI’s were new at that point). The drug made a big difference in his last year. But as you say, for many people there are other ways of changing the brain as well. I’m glad you found ways that work for you.
Hi tt,
You’re right, IMO. Everyone has to find what works for them. And sometimes that means (under Dr. supervision) altering the dose—or if your doctor will prescribe the meds experimenting with reasonable off-label uses. I’m glad you found what works for you, too!
Hi PR,
Most doctors (more primary care physicians are prescribing anti-depressants these days than psychiatrists) prescribe anti-depressants on a trial basis: give it a try, and if it works, good—if not, we’ll try something else. Because we know so little about brain “types” (and we can only speculate about how the drugs work), that’s the best they can do. Because the side-effect profile is so minor (in most cases), I think the trial and error strategy is appropriate.
Thanks for re-raising the issue of whether it is “normal” to be happy. Statistically speaking happy is normal. But so is positive self-deception (consider, for example, the recent finding that 90% of doctors believe they are in the top 10% of their profession—sorry, I don’t mean to pick on doctors!) Here’s a controversial extension of the debate: in yesterday’s Boston Globe there was a review of a book examining the positive effect of “mental illness” on leadership:
http://articles.boston.com/2011-08-03/ae/29847067_1_mental-illness-genius-and-insanity-crisis
The book, A First-Rate Madness: Uncovering the Links Between Leadership and Mental Illness is by Nassir Ghaemi, and the review by Alice Gregory. Apparently, the point made by Ghaemi (I haven’t read the book) is that at least for some people (and certainly the opposite has also been true for many or most leaders), the attributes of mental illness allowed people to be better leaders. Could/would Lincoln have done what he did if he had not been severely depressed—and, thus, been such a “realist”? How about Churchill? (And as the author points out, neither would have gotten the chance today to serve if their depression became public.)
But back to the point. Is happiness “normal”? Should people be striving for happiness? Many people can “find” happiness through anti-depressants, but at what cost? Is the cost worth it (as teartracks asks and answers above)? For me, personally, these are not simple questions. For example, whatever value this website/message board may have, it would not exist if I were a person of “normal” happiness. I’ll stop here. What do you/everyone think?
Richard
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Would, or should, artificial, drug-induced happiness be our goal; especially given that very little is known how the brain is REALLY wired and works? I sense that "No" would be an answer to that question. At the same time, when struggling with suicidal depression and PTSD flash-backs from surviving an Nparent's insanity, then what? Are there any answers at all when anti-depressants don't work and there are no professionals available that understand Survivors of N's issues?
Just thinking.........
Bones
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"Happiness is not always the best way to be happy."--Judith, Where the Wild Things Are
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Our culture is so amped-up (I blame media sucking up our lives since TV became ubiquitous, much less all the other devices)...that I think what we now think of happiness is more like mania, sometimes.
I did have a T once tell me that if he could get to a steady state of mild hypomania, he'd be delighted.
Anyway, because I think the culture is sick and our saturated entertainment tells us that happiness is manic, we (the general "we") -- miss out on what I now think it really is, which is peace. Contentment. Ability to be present.
None of those involve shrieking, jumping, errr...boinking, acted elated, high-fiving, singing like the mic is your first bite of food after starvation, doing anything in front of a camera or on FB...
Anyhow. I think happiness has gotten confused with mania.
I now think it's peace.
Which is really nothing more or less than me arguing with myself about language.
(Happily.)
Hops
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Thanks, TT.
I wish there was an answer to my question.
Bones
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I sometimes think my entire life has been a series of experiments with anti-depressants of various sorts. My trial of prescription chemical AD's lasted 4 years. At first they seemed a miracle and I was firmly in the Peter Kramer camp. Then the positive effects started to fizzle out and I went on a four year roller coaster of prescription adjustments. Every change in the type of medication or dosage seemed to have some positive effect, for a while, but the "poop-out" effect always happened in the end. And I was left with nothing but a variety of negative side effects, such as weight gain. While taking AD's, I was gaining weight at the rate of a pound a month. This abruptly stopped when I stopped taking the pills. At age 40 I dropped the chemical experiments and started to try some inner work and real lifestyle changes.
Over the years I have known many people who have taken prescription AD's It doesn't appear to me that any of them have been helped in the long term by drug therapy alone. Many have gotten a lot worse, and this includes both of my siblings. My sister has been struggling to stop taking Cymbalta for years and can't do it. The two sibs together go through about $30k a year of prescription chemicals. I have to wonder if a program of cognitive or other "talk" therapy might have been more effective and much less expensive.
I believe there are biases in the medical system which prevent recognition of the actual failure rates. I am still on record as a great Prozac success story, because I quit on my own without consulting my MD. When one prescription failed, he just prescribed something else, and the general concept of chemical therapy never got called into question. There are now huge amounts of money at stake, which is great incentive to overlook or downplay the negatives. Not that the purveyors are completely to blame. The general belief in the possibility of a no effort "happy pill" drives the whole process.
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Hi TT,
I'm no doctor (just play one in my head) but your symptoms rang a bell.
Do you think you might possibly have something -- even a variant -- on this spectrum?
http://www.sleepassociation.org/index.php?p=aboutnarcolepsy (http://www.sleepassociation.org/index.php?p=aboutnarcolepsy)
If it strikes you that way, perhaps you could make an appt. with an expert in this field.
(I've had 2 overnight sleep studies, for different issues--apnea and RLS. They were pleasant experiences.)
xo
Hops
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Hi TT,
I'm no doctor (just play one in my head) but your symptoms rang a bell.
Do you think you might possibly have something -- even a variant -- on this spectrum?
http://www.sleepassociation.org/index.php?p=aboutnarcolepsy (http://www.sleepassociation.org/index.php?p=aboutnarcolepsy)
If it strikes you that way, perhaps you could make an appt. with an expert in this field.
(I've had 2 overnight sleep studies, for different issues--apnea and RLS. They were pleasant experiences.)
xo
Hops
That makes sense, Hops!
I've seen a case of Narcolepsy when I used to work at a residential school. A student was showing all the symptoms but the people in charge refused to believe that was anything wrong with him and labeled him as lazy. The school authorities went so far as to publicly humiliate him several times, in front of his classmates, because of his symptoms. When I commented about the possibility of Narcolepsy, I was curtly informed by my then-boss that I was only a secretary and knew nothing! (He ignored the fact that he had hired me because I had just recently completed a Bachelor's degree in psychology.) The school administrators' excuse was to claim that the nearby hospital couldn't find anything wrong with this student. (I tried to point out that the hospital only had him in their E.R. for only a few hours before releasing him and that testing for Narcolepsy requires an extensive period of time.) Finally, the poor kid's mother got fed up with the way her son was being treated and transferred him to a school closer to his home AND had her son hospitalized for extensive testing.
Guess what they FINALLY diagnosed him with? Narcolepsy!!!
I was so pissed off at the school administrators for the way they treated that kid!! GRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
Bones
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Hi SL!
The two sibs together go through about $30k a year of prescription chemicals. I have to wonder if a program of cognitive or other "talk" therapy might have been more effective and much less expensive.
I'm glad you shared this. I always thought that the popularity of these drugs, was their cost-effectiveness. At my T's old rates (sans insurance) this amount would've bought over 2 years worth of hourly appts. (maybe that doesn't hold true in all cases, tho')... these days, everyone is looking for the most benefit from the least amount of cost, in health care.
Kinda touches on my philosophy-rant of "how to improve and contain costs of health care"... that being: low-tech, nutrition, exercise, meditation -- i.e., engage the patient in lifestyle changes (and provide the support needed to do that), and if no change -- only THEN, start to address the allopathic options. Those changes have a high failure rate if attempted solo -- without the emotional support element, whether that's one on one or a group.
And now, I start to wonder -- how many physical, medical problems have some emotional/psychological root-source?
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You're welcome ((((TT)))). I am so glad you ain't feeling "broke."
Really neat that some of the info rings some chimes...
I am not overweight any more but still have apnea (though it's way better). It's just my throat/palette architecture. (Some desperate folks have surgery for that. Not me.) It's waaaaay better since I did lose, got down to my h.s. weight. (Partly ADD Rx, because they take the edge off appetite...and emotional eating isn't interesting any more. We won't mention the entire pint of Ben & Jerry's Cherry Garcia last week--must've been somebody else.) What's nice is that those cravings aren't daily any more. I think a lot of it is that I've added the green powder shakes and feel so much better than it's easy to keep the connection in my mind. So not as ahrd to (usually) be intentional about what I take in...feeling I urgently need to preserve my health, eat 95% seriously good for me stuff, not waste calories, etc.) Rambling...
Oh. Was going to say I dunno if I snore any more, since there's noone to tell me! Probably do. But my guess is that's way better too. When I was just 20 pounds heavier, I'd snore and gasp hard enough to wake myself.
What I was thinking about a sleep study (not that you need to worry about seeking out one...) wasn't for apnea for you, but because they'd record brain activity when you're in the weird struggle-to-be-fully-awake morning period.
Still, the best news is that you have (on your own!) actually figured out what sort of an Rx balance is effective for you. Don't worry about it pooping out...ain't inevitable.
You are some kind of impressive, TT. (I just research stuff like that since I used to do it professionally.)
love,
Hops
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And now, I start to wonder -- how many physical, medical problems have some emotional/psychological root-source?
Hi PR. I'd guess a lot. My sister has a confirmed problem with "somatization disorder". She is constantly going from Dr. to Dr. with complaints of various sorts. They try to find physical causes and generally fail. Even when they find a real physical problem and address it, something else pops up in short order. So the usual answer is to send her on her way with a new pill. I keep hoping she will finally get steered into some serious talk therapy, but it doesn't even seem an option anymore. Even after she was finally diagnosed with SD, they just upped her drug dosages.
I read somewhere that much of the basic medical research aimed at finding actual cures for diseases (mental or otherwise)is grinding to a halt for lack of funding. Most of the interest now is in permanent conditions which can be profitably treated with drugs, such as acid reflux.
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SL... I'm kinda like your sister, in that much of my suffering - and also healing - affects my body in various ways. I think some of us turn so far inward... that it's our body which is our first boundary with the rest of the external world. Or something like that. The most beneficial thing I've found so far is getting signed up for and obligated to attend body work sessions... yoga, tai chi, something like that, that involves a new way of experiencing one's physical self... and boundary.
Wouldn't it be interesting, though, if there were treatment available that combined both mental/emotional therapies and physical, allopathic medicine? Chinese medicine is about the closest I've discovered so far... but even that is a bit weak on the therapy side. I wonder if there would be any significant decrease in the time of treatment to "recovery" with such a customized approach? Wishful thinking, I know... I guess I'm trying to invent something.
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SL... I'm kinda like your sister, in that much of my suffering - and also healing - affects my body in various ways. I think some of us turn so far inward... that it's our body which is our first boundary with the rest of the external world. Or something like that. The most beneficial thing I've found so far is getting signed up for and obligated to attend body work sessions... yoga, tai chi, something like that, that involves a new way of experiencing one's physical self... and boundary.
That's how it's worked for me as well. My AD program started when I went to a GP with a variety of physical complaints (fatigue, insomnia, and so forth). At the time I was semi aware of my general "life dissatisfaction" but hadn't really figured out the connection to my physical problems. So maybe learning the connection was a positive outcome of the AD experience. After that I really started trying to figure out my personal and family history, rather than just making frantic attempts to improve external conditions.
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I once tried fluoxetine but I couldn't stand the spaced-out and drowsy feeling, so I didn't go through the whole therapy. My ex-fiance took them about the same time (history of taking antidepressants in his family) and I remember the first couple of days when he called me on the way to work to say that he felt really, really bad. A little later we broke up but he nevertheless shared that he had problems climaxing (sorry if this too graphic). I think he said that he couldn't 'feel' anything, maybe similar to what Dr. G. is talking about in his reply (numbness). My ex-sister in law was taking a cocktail of them as well and although she seemed 'happy', she was like a stepford-wife, the lights are on but nobody's home. We say in Greece that the eye of someone who is taking antidepressants resembles a fish that was caught 3 days ago: it forms a thick layer on the eye...
I have taken St. John's Wort for many years and it has worked, however when I tried to stop the worst withdrawal symptom was physical and not emotional, a lack of energy.
My layman opinion is that if one doesn't work on the underlying issue that caused depression in the first place, they won't get better even if they take them for the rest of their life. I feel that depression is a symptom. To me it's a good boost but only for a while. If one's life is a mess, it won't be sorted just by raising their serotonine levels...
I come from a family of suicides too (NM's side) and I am relieved to see that this is common. Not that I am happy about it ( :D ) but rather that I see that it goes hand in hand with N issues. My NM's brother did several attempts (once I found him and had to keep him alive until the ambulance came when I was 7 or 8 and I found out that he killed himself in 2007 after immigrating to America (I guess like me he thought that moving abroad will sort out his issues but they caught up with him at the end). Also many members in the family used suicide as manipulation means (let me do this, or do this or I will kill myself)
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I once tried fluoxetine but I couldn't stand the spaced-out and drowsy feeling, so I didn't go through the whole therapy. My ex-fiance took them about the same time (history of taking antidepressants in his family) and I remember the first couple of days when he called me on the way to work to say that he felt really, really bad. A little later we broke up but he nevertheless shared that he had problems climaxing (sorry if this too graphic). I think he said that he couldn't 'feel' anything, maybe similar to what Dr. G. is talking about in his reply (numbness). My ex-sister in law was taking a cocktail of them as well and although she seemed 'happy', she was like a stepford-wife, the lights are on but nobody's home. We say in Greece that the eye of someone who is taking antidepressants resembles a fish that was caught 3 days ago: it forms a thick layer on the eye...
I have taken St. John's Wort for many years and it has worked, however when I tried to stop the worst withdrawal symptom was physical and not emotional, a lack of energy.
My layman opinion is that if one doesn't work on the underlying issue that caused depression in the first place, they won't get better even if they take them for the rest of their life. I feel that depression is a symptom. To me it's a good boost but only for a while. If one's life is a mess, it won't be sorted just by raising their serotonine levels...
I come from a family of suicides too (NM's side) and I am relieved to see that this is common. Not that I am happy about it ( :D ) but rather that I see that it goes hand in hand with N issues. My NM's brother did several attempts (once I found him and had to keep him alive until the ambulance came when I was 7 or 8 and I found out that he killed himself in 2007 after immigrating to America (I guess like me he thought that moving abroad will sort out his issues but they caught up with him at the end). Also many members in the family used suicide as manipulation means (let me do this, or do this or I will kill myself)
You're absolutely right that if the root cause of depression is not addressed and dealt with, the "happy pill" is NOT going to fix it! I've tried telling that to the last therapist I saw and he wasn't interested in hearing it. His main attitude was: "Why can't you get over the past? Here, take this pill and get a man too! That should solve A-L-L your problems!" (What planet was that therapist living on?????????)
Bones
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Right on Bones! Lately more and more I believe that taking ANY pill is not going to solve the problem. Pain is here to show you that something isn't right in your body and you should check it.
Yes, I am familiar with the 'why can't you get over the past'. It usually comes from 'textbook knowledge only' therapists....
Talking about the 'get a man', I was also told by the psychiatrist who gave me the fluoxetine that even if I didn't feel like being intimate with my ex-fiance, it didn't mean a thing and that I should remember the song 'Yes, I am great pretender', as if saying 'no, we shouldn't look at why you don't want to have sex but that you should force yourself to do it anyway'. Jeez, I had completely forgotten about this one!
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I feel that depression is a symptom.
I agree with this, wholeheartedly. For some types of depression (definitely not all*), it's best not to avoid those feelings - with all those useless coping strategies - it's way better to trace it all back and pull out the splinter that got infected so that the depression can heal on it's own. But our society sees something "wrong" if a person isn't happy, social, engaged with others, 24/7... the idea of balance with solitude, self-reflection, etc just isn't all that fashionable right now. So that becomes an additional burden or stigma for the person trying to heal. I just don't think MDs get enough training to diagnose what kind of depression they're dealing with, in a 15 min conversation with a patient. They want to help; don't know how or have the time; so of course they reach for a pill -- an emotional "antibiotic miracle drug" -- the anti-Ds. "Take two of these and call me in the morning".
*For the majority of self-reported depression... which is most often a normal human response to temporary life difficulties that simply don't feel that temporary or outside of one's self.
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I come from a family of suicides too (NM's side) and I am relieved to see that this is common. Not that I am happy about it ( :D ) but rather that I see that it goes hand in hand with N issues. My NM's brother did several attempts (once I found him and had to keep him alive until the ambulance came when I was 7 or 8 and I found out that he killed himself in 2007 after immigrating to America (I guess like me he thought that moving abroad will sort out his issues but they caught up with him at the end). Also many members in the family used suicide as manipulation means (let me do this, or do this or I will kill myself)
Hi H. Suicide definitely goes along with N issues. I haven't gotten into this aspect of my FOO history on the board, but there have been numerous suicide attempts, the latest being two by my sister in the last five years. Maybe her underlying N problems were the ultimate cause, but I believe the chemical treatment was at least a contributing factor. She was trying to withdraw from Cymbalta when she made these attempts. There are 1000's of comments on the internet about problems with Cymbalta, especially for those trying to quit.
So after her suicide attempts the response of the medical system was to up her dosages and add more drugs. Not that I can blame "the system" because she is certainly an Nish hypochondriac and difficult to deal with. I only hope that she finally learns enough from experience to get out of this trap somehow. I have to wonder if she would have been better off if talk therapy was the only choice 25 years ago when the whole thing started. Now she's pushing 50 and still looking for the easy chemical answer.
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Sorry to hear about your sister SL.
I don't really know much on the subject but uncle A who only threaten to kill himself was not an N, and uncle B who actually succeeded had a lot of N issues. And I mean a lot.
I sincerely hope your sis gets better somehow.
Can you not persuade her to seek talk therapy or some other form of help to deal with the withdrawal problems?
(This is from wikipedia: (I didn't know Cymbalta, but now I do...)
A suicide of 19-year-old Traci Johnson, a healthy volunteer in a duloxetine clinical pharmacology study, was highly publicized. For about a month she had been given high doses of duloxetine, and then she was switched to placebo. Four days after the switch, she hung herself in the bathroom of Lilly Laboratory for Clinical Research.[64][65] The New York Times article mentioned a withdrawal syndrome as a possible reason for this suicide)
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I sincerely hope your sis gets better somehow.
Can you not persuade her to seek talk therapy or some other form of help to deal with the withdrawal problems?
Thanks H. Like most everything with my FOO, it's a mess. Withdrawal from AD's is complicated by her hypochondriacal tendencies. Any discomfort drives her to seek an instant medical solution, which means she needs a drug to get her through the withdrawal from drugs. And there is little help from the medical establishment, which barely acknowledges the possibility of problems caused by quitting AD's (withdrawal symptoms come from messy illegal street drugs, not the high tech products of the pharma industry). Some medical professionals have suggested talk therapy for her, but none has(to my knowledge) ever even hinted of any possible downside to the chemical program.
On the positive side, she seems to be fairly stable lately, and the weird events with my mother in the last year have jolted the sibs into some discussion of the family issues. So maybe this will be the start of some real brain "rewiring".
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Sincerely wishing you a speedy 'rewiring' SL! :D
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Right on Bones! Lately more and more I believe that taking ANY pill is not going to solve the problem. Pain is here to show you that something isn't right in your body and you should check it.
Yes, I am familiar with the 'why can't you get over the past'. It usually comes from 'textbook knowledge only' therapists....
Talking about the 'get a man', I was also told by the psychiatrist who gave me the fluoxetine that even if I didn't feel like being intimate with my ex-fiance, it didn't mean a thing and that I should remember the song 'Yes, I am great pretender', as if saying 'no, we shouldn't look at why you don't want to have sex but that you should force yourself to do it anyway'. Jeez, I had completely forgotten about this one!
Thanks!
Made me think that these "textbook knowledge-only therapists" are complete IDIOTS!!!! :P
Bones
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Honestly I think a big part of my anxiety or depression in life has been essentially not knowing "where do I belong, where do I fit in, where is my home, who are my people, who do I belong to, where is my constellation that gravitationally holds my life together, maybe belonging and identity issues had a lot to do with the depression...and fear of the worst.
I hate to think that I have not experienced the worst yet, but I'm experiencing things I never thought I would ever so I guess I'm living out some of my fears and I wonder if that experience negates some of the depression.....I don't know.
Once I started getting the pills the only things doctors ever considered was increasing my dosages.
I don't take them now and even though I am very troubled in my life I don't feel that at this point they would enhance my wellbeing enough to justify putting the strange substance into my body any longer. I don't care if I get fewer tasks done. I get a few essential things done. Not every person is an energizer bunny...and why the heck should a person have to be?
There is a coffee sign that says "Do more stupid things faster".
Maybe this is depression speaking but for God's sake A LOT of what goes on in life, in the human world is STUPID.
Tremendously important stupid stuff that MUST get done or else.
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Honestly I think a big part of my anxiety or depression in life has been essentially not knowing "where do I belong, where do I fit in, where is my home, who are my people, who do I belong to, where is my constellation that gravitationally holds my life together, maybe belonging and identity issues had a lot to do with the depression...and fear of the worst.
I'm with you there boat. We come from environments that did not provide any positive answers to these sorts of questions. My parents tended to squash any efforts the offspring might make to find their own answers. Depression became the glue holding the whole dysfunctional association together. If the offspring stayed depressed, there was no chance they would pick up and leave the program.
The chemical AD's seem to have stimulating effects that feel like a cure, but it doesn't last very long, at least in my experience. Adjusting to the frenetic pace of an insane society isn't the answer.
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Not every person is an energizer bunny...and why the heck should a person have to be?
There is a coffee sign that says "Do more stupid things faster".
Maybe this is depression speaking but for God's sake A LOT of what goes on in life, in the human world is STUPID.
Tremendously important stupid stuff that MUST get done or else.
I love this Boat and I feel like I've always felt this way. Maybe as 'outsiders' we get to see things more clearly (assuming you agree with the term outsider). I call it being realistic, not being depressed.
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Honestly I think a big part of my anxiety or depression in life has been essentially not knowing "where do I belong, where do I fit in, where is my home, who are my people, who do I belong to, where is my constellation that gravitationally holds my life together, maybe belonging and identity issues had a lot to do with the depression...and fear of the worst.
I hate to think that I have not experienced the worst yet, but I'm experiencing things I never thought I would ever so I guess I'm living out some of my fears and I wonder if that experience negates some of the depression.....I don't know.
Once I started getting the pills the only things doctors ever considered was increasing my dosages.
I don't take them now and even though I am very troubled in my life I don't feel that at this point they would enhance my wellbeing enough to justify putting the strange substance into my body any longer. I don't care if I get fewer tasks done. I get a few essential things done. Not every person is an energizer bunny...and why the heck should a person have to be?
There is a coffee sign that says "Do more stupid things faster".
Maybe this is depression speaking but for God's sake A LOT of what goes on in life, in the human world is STUPID.
Tremendously important stupid stuff that MUST get done or else.
I also struggle with similar thoughts...."Where do I belong?" "Where do I fit in?" "Others have families who love them. Why not me?" "Who do I belong to?" "Where is my support system?" A "Happy Pill" cannot fix that!
Bones
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Bones, good questions. I thought
Where do I belong?" "Where do I fit in?" "Others have families who love them. Why not me?" "Who do I belong to?"
all the above I thought, they're no longer relevant to me. Maybe I don't need to belong, fit in, maybe I'm happy not fitting in. Look at what we might have to fit into! :P 'Why not me' is easily answered - 'bad' luck and it's not going to change. Sad but true kind of thing. It's not even 'bad' luck, because what doesn't kill you ... etc... but it takes a while to feel that way.
"Where is my support system?" now that's a great question and highly relevant.
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Bones, good questions. I thought
Where do I belong?" "Where do I fit in?" "Others have families who love them. Why not me?" "Who do I belong to?"
all the above I thought, they're no longer relevant to me. Maybe I don't need to belong, fit in, maybe I'm happy not fitting in. Look at what we might have to fit into! :P 'Why not me' is easily answered - 'bad' luck and it's not going to change. Sad but true kind of thing. It's not even 'bad' luck, because what doesn't kill you ... etc... but it takes a while to feel that way.
"Where is my support system?" now that's a great question and highly relevant.
Thanks, Guest.
My concern is that as we all age, and develop age-related medical issues, who can we rely on in an emergency, especially when everyone else you know are so busy with their own lives?
Bones
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Bones, I have had that question for some time. But let me tell you this. I am going through the loneliest 8 months of my life. At the end of January I was working two jobs and as a result I had a herniated disc. It happens that I went through this on my own, in fact I remember that when on the 4th day I couldn't even turn around in bed and decided to go to the hospital, I was unable to get up or put on shoes because I was in such pain that I never felt before in my life. Anyway, I went to the hospital with slippers (!) and had some shots done. After the physical pain wore off thanks to the shots, the emotional pain hit through and I was crying because I was so lonely and alone and I had nobody to take care of me (in fact I broke up with someone at the time who, because on the first day the aches started offered to take me to the hospital and I said no because I wanted to go to church, he said that he 'punished' me for not taking me on the day that I was bedridden because I didn't go when he wanted me to go - go figure). But first, I realised that I took care of myself pretty well and months later when I was talking about with someone else, he said 'you should have called me'. I didn't even think of calling that person at the time and I am sure there would have been others who would be willing to take me to the hospital too.
I think that help is always there when we need it. Somehow when we are deep in the pit of self-despair, we don't see it.
I think asking for help has been my toughest issue. I don't mean financial help but actually coming out and admitting 'I can't deal with this on my own, I need some help'.
Another issue has been for me to see that we are not really separate from one another. Maybe it's all these new age and metaphysical seminars I have been going to that talk about oneness but I am starting to really believe that this is truly the case...
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Bones, I have had that question for some time. But let me tell you this. I am going through the loneliest 8 months of my life. At the end of January I was working two jobs and as a result I had a herniated disc. It happens that I went through this on my own, in fact I remember that when on the 4th day I couldn't even turn around in bed and decided to go to the hospital, I was unable to get up or put on shoes because I was in such pain that I never felt before in my life. Anyway, I went to the hospital with slippers (!) and had some shots done. After the physical pain wore off thanks to the shots, the emotional pain hit through and I was crying because I was so lonely and alone and I had nobody to take care of me (in fact I broke up with someone at the time who, because on the first day the aches started offered to take me to the hospital and I said no because I wanted to go to church, he said that he 'punished' me for not taking me on the day that I was bedridden because I didn't go when he wanted me to go - go figure). But first, I realised that I took care of myself pretty well and months later when I was talking about with someone else, he said 'you should have called me'. I didn't even think of calling that person at the time and I am sure there would have been others who would be willing to take me to the hospital too.
I think that help is always there when we need it. Somehow when we are deep in the pit of self-despair, we don't see it.
I think asking for help has been my toughest issue. I don't mean financial help but actually coming out and admitting 'I can't deal with this on my own, I need some help'.
Another issue has been for me to see that we are not really separate from one another. Maybe it's all these new age and metaphysical seminars I have been going to that talk about oneness but I am starting to really believe that this is truly the case...
A thought just occurred to me about why it is so difficult to admitting to ourselves that "can't deal with this" and asking for the help we need. I think that, due to being forcibly trapped with NWomb-Donors and NSperm-Donors, we were FREQUENTLY PUNISHED for DARING TO HAVE ANY NEEDS AT ALL. When we learned, the hard way, as children that we could not rely or trust those that were SUPPOSED TO BE OUR CAREGIVERS, who could we rely on? Who could we trust? We were trapped in the double-bind and still struggle, to this day, in attempting to escape.
Bones
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Bones will you allow me to recommend a good movie on the subject (if you haven't seen it already)? It's '28 days' with Sandra Bullock. I know it's another cheesy, rehab movie but it has been one that I go back and watch when I need to be reminded of how important it is to ask for help...
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A thought just occurred to me about why it is so difficult to admitting to ourselves that "can't deal with this" and asking for the help we need. I think that, due to being forcibly trapped with NWomb-Donors and NSperm-Donors, we were FREQUENTLY PUNISHED for DARING TO HAVE ANY NEEDS AT ALL. When we learned, the hard way, as children that we could not rely or trust those that were SUPPOSED TO BE OUR CAREGIVERS, who could we rely on? Who could we trust? We were trapped in the double-bind and still struggle, to this day, in attempting to escape.
And unfortunately "taking a pill" becomes a meager substitute for real emotional help. My parents were always good at providing cheap substitutes for emotional support. They'd gladly hand over a buck or two to let the offspring go off and console themselves with some food or trinket. I was essentially trying to self medicate myself out of depression by the time I was 14 years old, starting with caffeine and sugar. There was no real emotional support from the FOO, and the peer group was of little functional help.
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That seems to be a big part of the problem in the ineffectiveness of the treatment IMO because the pill really is suppose to be like an imperfect aid to treatment NOT the whole treatment.
I still think it's all a big scam from pharm companies.
I've pointed this out before but will say again. Makers of prozac tried to get a re-patent on the pills for PMS (Premenstrual Disphoric Disorder). Because all women of child bearing age according to them temporarily develop a mental illness for one week a month. What a big lie!
$$$$$$$$$
The last prescription I had for antidepressants cost $60 a month.
Money is all relative I know, it wasn't a lot of money for me at the time that I was purchasing it but now I couldn't purchase it even if I wanted. But I don't want it anyways :)
A deep depression and a huge life changing event is what contributed to me stopping the pills.
I thought whoa! Sh*t is flying and the pills are not going to change that, and I feel like crap and the pills are not going to change that. Life just isn't perfect for some people and a pill doesn't fix that.
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Bones will you allow me to recommend a good movie on the subject (if you haven't seen it already)? It's '28 days' with Sandra Bullock. I know it's another cheesy, rehab movie but it has been one that I go back and watch when I need to be reminded of how important it is to ask for help...
Thanks! I have seen it as it was one of my required assignments when I was in school.
Bones
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A thought just occurred to me about why it is so difficult to admitting to ourselves that "can't deal with this" and asking for the help we need. I think that, due to being forcibly trapped with NWomb-Donors and NSperm-Donors, we were FREQUENTLY PUNISHED for DARING TO HAVE ANY NEEDS AT ALL. When we learned, the hard way, as children that we could not rely or trust those that were SUPPOSED TO BE OUR CAREGIVERS, who could we rely on? Who could we trust? We were trapped in the double-bind and still struggle, to this day, in attempting to escape.
And unfortunately "taking a pill" becomes a meager substitute for real emotional help. My parents were always good at providing cheap substitutes for emotional support. They'd gladly hand over a buck or two to let the offspring go off and console themselves with some food or trinket. I was essentially trying to self medicate myself out of depression by the time I was 14 years old, starting with caffeine and sugar. There was no real emotional support from the FOO, and the peer group was of little functional help.
AMEN and AMEN!!!!
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That seems to be a big part of the problem in the ineffectiveness of the treatment IMO because the pill really is suppose to be like an imperfect aid to treatment NOT the whole treatment.
I still think it's all a big scam from pharm companies.
I've pointed this out before but will say again. Makers of prozac tried to get a re-patent on the pills for PMS (Premenstrual Disphoric Disorder). Because all women of child bearing age according to them temporarily develop a mental illness for one week a month. What a big lie!
$$$$$$$$$
The last prescription I had for antidepressants cost $60 a month.
Money is all relative I know, it wasn't a lot of money for me at the time that I was purchasing it but now I couldn't purchase it even if I wanted. But I don't want it anyways :)
A deep depression and a huge life changing event is what contributed to me stopping the pills.
I thought whoa! Sh*t is flying and the pills are not going to change that, and I feel like crap and the pills are not going to change that. Life just isn't perfect for some people and a pill doesn't fix that.
That is ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON!!!!!!
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That seems to be a big part of the problem in the ineffectiveness of the treatment IMO because the pill really is suppose to be like an imperfect aid to treatment NOT the whole treatment.
I completely agree. I remember back in the early years of Prozac, the instructions and literature said it was intended for short term use only. I don't know how we got from there to the current protocol of lifelong chemical treatment. Is there any proof out there that these chemicals are effective in the long term? And what about the possible side effects or damage from long term use?
IMO the whole AD thing started out as something positive and possibly helpful for a limited population, but it's been turned into a monster by the corporate medical system. The need for predictable and ever increasing profit ends up overriding all other concerns.
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Do anti-depressants work? My reaction is NO. I have taken Prozac (1991) Zoloft (2003) and now Lexapro (2011). NO. They do not work at all.
Here is my last entry on the depression study I participated in. I decided to do the study, hoping for a better diagnosis than with traditional psychiatrists and more monitoring of symptoms, side effects and progress.
This will be my last post on this subject. My participation in the study ended today. I left with mixed feelings. They regard me as a success story because it looks that way on paper, but I feel like anything but.
My anxiety improved.
My insomnia is unchanged.
My mood (on paper) seems to have improved, but mostly, I don't feel any better.
My productivity/motivation is at an all time low, I have no interest in doing anything or finishing anything, besides basic household chores.
Side effects were minimal, mostly loss of appetite, but I was still overeating, so I did not lose any weight.
Meeting with Psychiatrist in charge of the study was good, but I was intimidated and did not ask the right questions. It was revealed that I was in fact on Lexapro, just as I guessed. I was given a prescription for more meds, including a bigger does of Lexapro and could also take wellbutrin to deal with the low motivation. But, I have decided I am done with the anti-d's I have a one week supply left, but will stop taking them tomorrow. There is no point in continuing.
Thanks to everyone again for your support.
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Hey Ales - can you endure one more question?
I wonder, what do you think the results would've been like, if you'd had a more active - not just passive - role to play in the study?
If, for instance, you were also coached & supported on the motivation issue... and totally involved in finding out what helped you be more like you, in that area? Doing "homework" or research and reporting on it? On say, a weekly basis... until you could sustain the desired level of activity for two weeks... then a month... between de-briefing & troubleshooting sessions?
In a situation like that, do you think perhaps the drugs might've been complimentary and help support the active engagement in activity? (with the proper one on one support, that is).
I'm curious about what your opinion on that is... (I'll be awol for a few days... catch up next week!)
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...and me, I'm wondering if an experiment with the altered dose + Wellbutrin could be worth a try before you empty your system.
Since you've gotten SOME measurable effect (notable anxiety reduction) that means they do affect you. But maybe your own tweaked dosage hasn't been found yet.
It's different, I know, but all the BP material I'm reading talks about patience with finding the right Rx and dosage tweaking being very important. And that it does pay off.
I'm an optimist. But it's your body.
xo
Hops
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Hi Phoenix and Hops - Thanks for your posts.
Phoenix - Thats a great suggestion. Not entirely sure what you mean by passive though, each week I came in and filled questionnaires that measure my feelings about things and sat through a 15 minute interview with my monitor. I think thats fairly active in terms of measuring my progress and it was helpful for me to see how I felt when answering the same questions consistently from week to week. As for coaching or support, I'm an adult and don't know how besides my own personal accountability and responsibility I could be helped with the low motivation or productivity. . When I am at home by myself, its entirely up to me to pursue my job search and dating search, work out and manage other aspects of my life. I'm not sure how coaching would help me - and I am weary to get involved in discussing "fears" of getting or finding employment becuase so many are quite rational (accepting less pay than you deserve, not getting health benefits, working for an abusive boss etc.) right now that I actaully think it would be counterproductive. I know I cant improve m situation much without a job and relationship, but it really has to be up to me to be dissatisfied enough with my life to pursue that consistently. That said, I apprecaite your suggestion and I'm not dismissing it, just not sure how I could be motivated beyond my current state. My anxiety is gone now, and that was something that motiavted me in the past, so it was not all bad.
Hops - I think you are right on with your dosage suggestion. I guess its the uncertainty of trying to find the right cocktail of dosgae and compatible drugs that I find frustrating. Its also hard to measure, things could go well and then suddenly crash, but I will consider your suggestion.
I did end up deciding to just finish the medication I have and fill the prescription I was given, just in case I decide to contonue when the current supply runs out. I am also awaiting a referral to the local counseling center where I would for monitoring and futher presctiptions. Will collect resources and stay current with the meds and consult with the center before discontinuing.
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I'm glad, Ales...I think you're giving yourself a chance this way.
No crystal ball, but somewhere in your body-brain system, the life
force WANTS to recover from depression, and perhaps this support
is going to make a real difference.
I'm glad you're hanging in.
(If my experience helps, with time I was able to not need ADs
at all. But the years when I was battling hardest, it did help me
get started out of the fog.)
xo
Hops
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They work at first, but don't for me in the long run. I feel flat. I don't feel like myself. I also had a hard time losing unwanted weight on them. When I stopped taking them, my weight dropped easily.
I don't like it when therapists push medication. It doesn't help you cope with the problem. It's okay to feel sad and anxious from time to time. I would rather feel than be a zombie. When you try to wean off the meds, you're left in a much worse state than you started.
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What I don't like is the pharmaceutical merry-go-round. Take the anti-depressant, gain weight, feel less-depressed for a short time, drug tolerance kicks in, meds STOP working, depression returns, therapist changes you to a different anti-depressant, gain more weight, feel less-depressed for a short time, drug tolerance kicks in AGAIN, meds STOP working, depression returns, therapist recommends a THIRD anti-depressant, and the stupid dance goes on and on. :P
And in the meantime, the situation that is exacerbating the depression is STILL there and, NO, the pills don't make it go away! Like I told one psychiatrist, you can't medicate life away and taking AD's forever is UNREALISTIC, ESPECIALLY when drug tolerance occurs repeatedly.
Bones
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What I don't like is the pharmaceutical merry-go-round. Take the anti-depressant, gain weight, feel less-depressed for a short time, drug tolerance kicks in, meds STOP working, depression returns, therapist changes you to a different anti-depressant, gain more weight, feel less-depressed for a short time, drug tolerance kicks in AGAIN, meds STOP working, depression returns, therapist recommends a THIRD anti-depressant, and the stupid dance goes on and on. :P
And in the meantime, the situation that is exacerbating the depression is STILL there and, NO, the pills don't make it go away! Like I told one psychiatrist, you can't medicate life away and taking AD's forever is UNREALISTIC, ESPECIALLY when drug tolerance occurs repeatedly.
Bones
Exactly! There's a good book "Your drug may be your problem" that goes into how a lot of therapists themselves aren't as educated about anti-depressants. Some of them also think that medication makes the therapeutic work easier.
When I broke up with my boyfriend, I was told to get on medication to cope with all of the feelings. Yeah right! Feeling angry, sad and confused are normal feelings when you break up. They will subside.
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What I don't like is the pharmaceutical merry-go-round. Take the anti-depressant, gain weight, feel less-depressed for a short time, drug tolerance kicks in, meds STOP working, depression returns, therapist changes you to a different anti-depressant, gain more weight, feel less-depressed for a short time, drug tolerance kicks in AGAIN, meds STOP working, depression returns, therapist recommends a THIRD anti-depressant, and the stupid dance goes on and on. :P
And in the meantime, the situation that is exacerbating the depression is STILL there and, NO, the pills don't make it go away! Like I told one psychiatrist, you can't medicate life away and taking AD's forever is UNREALISTIC, ESPECIALLY when drug tolerance occurs repeatedly.
Bones
Exactly! There's a good book "Your drug may be your problem" that goes into how a lot of therapists themselves aren't as educated about anti-depressants. Some of them also think that medication makes the therapeutic work easier.
When I broke up with my boyfriend, I was told to get on medication to cope with all of the feelings. Yeah right! Feeling angry, sad and confused are normal feelings when you break up. They will subside.
Thanks, NLAS and you are absolutely right!!!!
Bones
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I would much rather work on using CBT, DBT or learning how to cope before resorting to medication.
When I have my good days, I really have my good days. Just because I'm not on medication doesn't mean I will be miserable everyday. Medication deprived me of feeling those "good days." My therapist didn't seem happy with me not taking medication, but it's my right not to take it.
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I would much rather work on using CBT, DBT or learning how to cope before resorting to medication.
When I have my good days, I really have my good days. Just because I'm not on medication doesn't mean I will be miserable everyday. Medication deprived me of feeling those "good days." My therapist didn't seem happy with me not taking medication, but it's my right not to take it.
You have the right to say "No".
Bones
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I just don't want anyone who really could be helped by ADs, even as a kick-start to learning how to cope differently and make different choices to alleviate their depression...to feel "weak" or "ashamed" for taking them.
My experience is that they were a true, real help during some periods of my life, for clinical depression (not passing blues).
Likewise, I am glad that I can now manage it myself with other methods. But it took me years to learn and begin to enact those. When I was flattened, in my bed and dysfunctional, I couldn't just yank myself out of it.
I believe in the "cafeteria" approach. Absolutism in either direction (ADs are good, ADs are bad) limits the choices and options. I think a personal, how-is-it-for-me-in-this-chapter of my own life, not somebody else's...evaluation is very important.
And then having confidence that you can make one decision, and later another if that's right for you.
Hops
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Hopalong-When I was in graduate school and living at home, medicine definitely helped me a lot too. I was able to focus on my grades and perform at my potential.
But, there comes a time when I don't want to be on them forever. I feel as if every time I relapse (which is a normal part of emotional recovery), I'm suggested to go back on medication.
Bones-Even if I say no, my therapist will keep chiming in"It would be a good idea to be back on your meds. Your meds were regulating the activity in your brain." She doesn't do it all of the time, but she will bring it up if I'm having a bad moment. Those bad moments I have usually go away. They aren't permanent.
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Hopalong-When I was in graduate school and living at home, medicine definitely helped me a lot too. I was able to focus on my grades and perform at my potential.
But, there comes a time when I don't want to be on them forever. I feel as if every time I relapse (which is a normal part of emotional recovery), I'm suggested to go back on medication.
Bones-Even if I say no, my therapist will keep chiming in"It would be a good idea to be back on your meds. Your meds were regulating the activity in your brain." She doesn't do it all of the time, but she will bring it up if I'm having a bad moment. Those bad moments I have usually go away. They aren't permanent.
Sounds like the therapist isn't getting it when you set a boundary. If she had responded to me that way after I had already said "No", I probably would have gotten real snarky and asked: "What part of the word "No" do you not understand?"
Bones
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I like her, because she understands what it's like to have a narc mom. She can be helpful, but I would be lying if I have thought of switching from time to time.
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I understand, NLAS...
I wanted off them eventually too.
Hops
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Hi Ales... I'll explain in another thread "Active vs Passive". Your reply pushed me to think about just what I did mean... how I define that... and what it consists of. I worked through a ton of lack of motivation a few years ago - and I'm still trying to find "the switch" that turns this on for me. I think it's able to be "mobile"... it's not just one thing... something like that. I'm still on that healing spiral, so I'm dealing with some of the stuff I thought I was "done" with... on another level or different perspective... again. (Oh, the irony...)
One thing that occurred to me, reading everyone's input, is that perhaps a good way to think of anti-Ds is as a crutch. Usually, we "feel" that word to be totally negative in significance and impact... akin to or on it's way to addiction... and yet, the whole purpose of a physical crutch is that it's used as support until "something" heals - a broken leg or foot, for instance - to avoid reinjury or overwhelming pain. When healing is far enough along, one can limp along without the crutch and that strengthens the broken body part. So, what is this "magic healing"?
There are lots & lots of different flavors of it... and sometimes it takes a while to find the flavor you respond to or "like" or that fits you, the best. I was very, very lucky in that I found mine, right off. After being told I was able to continue that work on my own... that's what I've been doing. I've been flying solo for about 4-5 years now. (well - OK - I'm not completely alone! I've got family and all of you on the board...). One way of describing what this healing is, is that I'm changing my thinking about things; my perspective on whether something is good, bad, irrelevant, overwhelming, impossible, achievable, ideal, etc. And in the process, my attitudes about things are changing... so my process is "organic"... in the sense, that I'm growing more active over time, and losing my own lack of motivation... and also beginning to understand WHY I'm struggling with it so much.
About depression, I might've described myself (or even been described) as depressed, with a huge side serving of anxiety with it. In the past. Now, I can see that differently... and my lack of motivation and passivity regarding caring for/about myself and making the changes I wanted in my life... now, I understand that there was this "perfect storm" in my life that left me little choice except to be this way in order to survive until the day I could really change this. It wasn't the "natural", real or genuine me... it was a maladaptation I made to my FOO-mess. And wow, once I saw that, a lot of my misery disappeared - just like magic. It lifted enough for me, to begin clearing away the old, obsolete, and useless crap I was clinging to, in order to insulate myself from more pain (see crutches above). Anyway... that makes it possible for "me" to be "separate" from "the way I am"... and study it enough to understand and see how to "edit" it... which starts the momentum of growth, development and what we call "change".
MAYBE... this would work for someone who is biologically "depressive"... I surely don't know, nor do I know how one would or could tell the two kinds of depression apart. Because the experiences are pretty much identical. But, we'll investigate and discuss over the new thread, once I get unpacked and have some down time to think again!
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For those that have been keeping track - I took Lexapro 10 mg from Mid August to mid-October when I went on 20 mg Celexa (change was only because its generic). I was participating in a study and their assessment was that I was helped by the medication, even though I disagree. They suggested that sometimes people dont realize they are better when they are. No such luck. Not sure I like someone telling me how I feel.
Last week thursday I decided to stop taking the medication because I dont think it helps. (I have 8 pills left). Not feeling worse or better yet either. So, does it work? Probably not. Its would be 12 weeks, so that would be enough to see the benefits.
This was a last resort for me and have medication that doesnt work is making it worse, I'm feeling that nothing I do or try will help me get better. Hopelessness sets in.
:(
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It sounds like I contradicted myself - I dont think anti-d's work, and while I dont FEEL worse yet, I do feel worse if I think that there is nothing left for me to try to feel better.
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I've heard some people get more benefit when they're actually on two types of anti-Ds...
have you ever asked about that?
I'm sorry you're feeling so discouraged, Ales...have faith, don't give up.
Hops
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Hi Hops - I have been told that two might work wonders, especially with my apathy/lack of productivity problem - supposedly Wellbutrin is good for that. Problem is now that I am out of the study, I have nowhere to go to get another prescription. I was referred to low cost clinic, but not a specific doctor, so I would have to go through the process again and its too difficult to be one of these patients who goes in requesting specific prescriptions. So, nowhere to go and nothing else to try.
Also, someone told me something yesterday that stuck with me and I am trying to digest. Her POV was that kids of Ns who grew up depressed and withdrawn, kind of like I did, dont realize their own moods have been oppressed by those around them (not just the people, but the environment). Those people tend to be more passive and more likely to believe something is wrong with them when nothing is (aside from the negative environment) and so they go off seeking remedies (of various kinds) that ultimately dont work, while not realizing they are more in control of their moods and life than they realize. That description sounds an awful lot like me, so I have to wonder if it applies to my depression as well.
Thanks for your post.
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Ales - this really was true of me:
... kids of Ns who grew up depressed and withdrawn, kind of like I did, dont realize their own moods have been oppressed by those around them (not just the people, but the environment).
It was a case, of where I learned to assign negative values to my feelings - all of my feelings pretty much... because of how I was treated, or neglected or told I was crazy and imagining things... what we call "gaslighting", only I was gaslighted about myself. Basically, it made me focus on "me" as a the source of all that was wrong and bad and accidents and it was all my fault. There was something "wrong" with me. Something that couldn't be diagnosed; it wasn't an allergy... all the time. It wasn't brain damage. It wasn't anything physical at all.
Sometimes, we experience either long-term or traumatic invalidation of our personhood; our identity and self. And it's this invalidation that convinces us that everything bad that happens or is experienced is "all our fault" - because of WHO WE ARE - rather than the more obvious explantion of circumstances, or mistakes, or accidents - or sick parents or abusive environments/families. A while back, I found a web site that had some easy to follow - and very helpful information. I saved the link for invalidation, because this is the closest explanation for why I grew to believe those rediculous things about myself. Maybe you'll find some inspiration and explanations and connections there too.
http://eqi.org/invalid.htm
The good news is that this state of "who we are" and "how we are" can change. Support from others who've been changing, trying to change, trying to figure out WHAT to change... was/is the most important "treatment" or technique or philosophy that I needed. Maybe you too? Guess what this board enables us to do?
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Also, someone told me something yesterday that stuck with me and I am trying to digest. Her POV was that kids of Ns who grew up depressed and withdrawn, kind of like I did, dont realize their own moods have been oppressed by those around them (not just the people, but the environment). Those people tend to be more passive and more likely to believe something is wrong with them when nothing is (aside from the negative environment) and so they go off seeking remedies (of various kinds) that ultimately dont work, while not realizing they are more in control of their moods and life than they realize. That description sounds an awful lot like me, so I have to wonder if it applies to my depression as well.
Thanks for your post.
I think you are really onto something there Ales. In my case, I don't believe I was born withdrawn and depressed, but I certainly became that way after 20 years of dealing with the environment primarily created by the FOO. Depression and withdrawal in effect was a defensive reaction or "bad habit" that came to seem normal over time. And this has physical/chemical effects. The chemical effects are just symptoms of the depressed state, and thus the depression is not going to be chemically cured without changes of thought and mind (IMO).
I went through the false process of chemical cure many times and the outcome was always the same. After a short burst of stimulation and euphoria, I ended up in the same place I was before, except with the additional problem of chemical side effects.