Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sunblue on July 31, 2011, 11:50:25 AM
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My Nmom and Co-D dad have always been "publicly" religious. They never missed a single Sunday mass, always contributed when the basket passed and always made it clear they were faithful. In my opinion, it wasn't "sincere" faithfulness, but it was consistent and lifelong. As some of you know, my dad became critically ill last fall....He was in the hospital and rehab for over six months. It was nothing short of a miracle that he survived...all his docs and caregivers believed so. I am faithful and prayed as hard as I could during this time. I believe that a greater power saved my dad. Many at our church prayed for him and inquired about him.
Well, my dad is doing better now. He is walking on his own, getting a little stronger each day. He can't walk for long periods but certainly he goes out and about with my mom. And, of course, he is well enough to spend every weekend with my Nsis, like they always have.
Well, since my dad got sick, my Nmom has not set foot in a church. My dad of course won't go if she won't. When I ask why he won't go to church, he just shakes his head and gives me a snide look. I know this is an N's way of punishing God....for not serving up life to her as she demanded. Everything is fine as long as she gets what she wants. But when things don't go her way, she punishes those she believes are responsible.
I'm sad about a lot of things but am especially sad about this. Another eye-opening disappointment---that the faith they preached all their lives is a lie. I'm also sad that my dad's co-dependence is so deep that he not only gave up his children and family, but his faith as well.
Has anyone experienced this "punishing" behavior with their Ns?
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Hi sunblue,
if Ns tend to punish everyone with withdrawal and indifference, why would God be an exception?
I think it has to do with what works for them rather than a punishment. The irony is that nothing works for them at the end, thinking they are infallible, so given their feeling of omnipotence, God is one to be taken down as well.
If I may say so, if one gives up their faith, the didn't have it in the first place. Have you thought that maybe this is something your dad 'just did'? Even in my most codependent days before Coda, I would give up everything but my faith and this is what brought me to where I am today - safe and hopefully sound!
As you describe it, maybe his codependence was what brought your dad to church in the first place, to please your Nmom, rather than the other way around.
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...what is holy is love and hope.
I am so leery of religious vocabulary and holy books written by humans.
So much hurt has been handed down through religious language.
I'd like to keep the transcendence and love I learned from religious teaching, but dump the rest.
Which pretty much means I don't use the G-word often, and when I do, I know it's only a private breath of air in a mighty wind.
love
Hops
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My parents were exactly the same way. They went to church every weekend. . . and even on the weekdays. Fortunately at our church were youth groups that my sister and I were allowed to participate in and get away from the parents. The church allowed us a greater freedom than we had under their strict thumb.
However, When dad got sick, my mom refused to go to church. It wasn't a matter of being mad at God or anything like that. It was more like that she didn't want to go anywhere alone. And I mean anywhere. She would not go out to eat along, because the "stigma" of being single is something she would not do. Eventually when dad did get better, they didn't go back because they had lost contact with friends. When I did ask my dad why he wouldn't go back - I got the same type of response as you. However, I know that my dad would rather not have to deal with the moods from my mom. It made it easier on him to just agree. Sure, it cost him in friends. It cost him in relationships with his family. Eventually his sisters (my aunts) climbed all over him and somehow he was able to reconnect relationships with my sister and myself. My mom passed away before him - so he was able to have about 6 months before his passing.
I realize this may be a naive "Pollyanna" view and your situation may be very different than mine. When I did live through this I pushed my mom to answer the questions. Once I was able to get her to answer truthfully it was easier to understand.
The above type behavior really does strike a raw nerve with me. Being single myself - and being pushed over and over into relationships - and you can't be happy unless you are married - is crap. I have encouraged many of my friends to put on their big boy/girl clothes - pick up a book and head to a restaurant. Or even head to a movie alone. It won't kill them- and it will certainly expand their ability to feel free.
I'm not sure this helps - but thanks for listening : )
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Love you back, ((((((((TT))))))))
Hops
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tt, I never knew this. what you've been thro makes you a spiritual leader to me. My son flies small airoplanes as it happens.
sun, I can see how yuch!! the behaviour is, thats how I feel when I come accross that. The co-dependent part,- along the way I came accross another explanation for this, theres another disorder, part of which the acting out involved the 'slave/master' relationship. Many partners of Ns are in this kind of dynamic, no rights, no individuality of thier own. Borderline disorder people also have a dynamic that they mustnt separate from thier other, in fact nothing of value exists that involves any kind of separation in that dynamic, so the response would be attack, or a disconnect of the communication with you, hostile. I say this because it made a lot of difference to me whem I understood the relationship between the various disorders and I could see how they perpetuate eachother.
.... and BTW, I love going out for a meal / cinema alone with a book. Havent done so for a long time, but now Im reminded, will do again.
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Best resource I know that explains the dynamic, underlying issues is in the Masterson literature, if you can get through the psychoanlitic terms, it really explains things. Thres a book called 'Therapists Guide to the Personality Disorders', and in there there are some diagrams of three main disorders, including the Ns. and the Borderlines.
Its something like: the borderline dynamic is feeling that to not separate, or think for yourself, etc has become equated with being 'good' accepted, and belonging. Its a principle of reward for regression, or for not growing up, being a follower rather than taking the trouble to do thier own thinking, and tackling the subtle, sensitive complications of reality.
It includes that doing something for and from oneself, separation, individuation has become equated with being 'bad', and connected with abandonment. The bad is how they would feel themself, or it is projected onto the other.
My sister and bro in law are borderline type, we had a political argument, its like they are determined to see things the way they see them, bye bye reality, and I kept my mouth shut for a long time whilst bro in law harangued me telling me I should "....have an open mind" . When I didnt answer, but looked at him, he began to feel the separation and next went into how I should spend more time with them and not be alone so much. (Like I felt like spending more time with him when he was carrying on like that!??).
I think that the 3 disorders seem to create eachother in families or groups, rather than there just be an N as a one off. ps, big subject, maybe should have its own post?
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This is something I struggle with and I think requires its own post. I've come to understand these things in a certain way, and my challenge is to share this understanding, which I really want to do, in such a way as the thing doesnt shoot off in all sorts of unintended directions.
How it works, .... its a more subtle thing, they're not like your classic pd people. Its a way of being in the world. In this case a certain level of denial, an avoidance of just how nasty things are, like blanding over it all so that their socialist ideals still fit. That way they dont have to self-activate and go through thte painful and troubling process of thinking things out and facing reality.
How do you see it with your sister and bro in law?
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tt and river -
I can contribute to the discussion on borderlines, also. I believe it is the functional issue behind my concept of "MomBro" - which only exists because I stopped playing (most) of my assigned role in my mom's delusional reality. It is also the relationship style that she projected on me, and that I've spent so much time un-doing. And it figures prominently in the steps I took, when developing a life strategy of self-harm, as protection from the rageaholic. I'll probably explore a good bit of this on my self-harm thread, if you want to chat there.
The book "Walking on Eggshells" hit home with me on every single page, tt. There is another, referencing recovery for children of BPD parents, however I forget the name of it. I gave it to my D, to help her understand what I was trying to purge from my habits... and why. The difference between the real-self "me" that was emerging then and the "mom" she grew up with. There are many overlaps of symptoms of N and BPD; I don't think it's possible for us to accurately diagnose... but it's pretty clear that we can totally relate to a lot of the symptoms and behavioral abnormalities, you know?
Per the subject that sun started with: religion and God are frequent "tools" in the hands of PD persons... and when the tool is no longer useful or becomes inconvenient to their purposes, it's forgotten. If Sun's dad is that co-dependent, it's likely that his piety was for appearances, as well - to please the N in his life, get his "gold star", perhaps gain a little personal breathing room for a bit.
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This thread caught my eye today.
My NFather was religious, had shelves of religious books, was active in the church ... but because he was always the one in control of everything, and I mean everything... he ordered God around, sometimes. Long story really short, but posting just because it might be relevant and/or helpful :
Dad had health issues his entire life (terrible war wounds from D-Day/WWII) but kept himself in wonderful shape, always eating properly, exercising, avoided alcohol and tobacco... but when he had Prostate Cancer surgery, which he survived nicely, he needed a catheter, and because he was 94, we put him in a nursing home while he recovered, since there was only my elderly NMother at home to care for him. (yes, both NF and NM - two NPs, and I an only child, sigh)
Well, this is where punishing God comes into the picture :
NF became angry at God, didn't like the situation he was in, prayed to God that he would die, and was furious with God when he opened his eyes in the morning and was still alive. His prayers were not answered. So, after a few weeks of these unanswered prayers, he took control of the situation, and basically killed himself. He still need to controll ALL things. So, he refused all liquids and foods until he died. Unfortunately, he was a very healthy man, so it took almost two weeks for him to fade away.
I was his only child. I was not reason enough for him to live.
Dad, in a sense, punished God for not doing what Dad wanted him to do... so Dad did it himself.
This was in 2004, but the memory bubbled up when I saw this thread. I have Faith, and yet I have found it hard to wrap my head around his passing away this way. It is something no one ever talks about.
There are so many things that we ACONs never talk about.
Thankful for this Board.
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You're welcome, tt!
I wonder... re your sister and her husband... if they believe in the idea that when one marries, one completely "gives up" one's personal identity for the relationship. I guess that doesn't explain what I mean very well. My mom passed along the set of ideas she had about marriage to me (obviously rejected piece by piece as I gained experience)... which were totally wack and simply don't have any basis in reality; what the real day to day demands, obligations - and JOYS - are. Something like how you are describing your sister's "fused" relationship...
so that in my marriage - I have no right to personal likes/dislikes, decision-making, boundaries of identity, no rights to ask for what I want, no life of my own outside of servitude, etc. That was her idea of being a good "wife". (and my exhusbands, too) Happiness and love and fun didn't figure into it anyway or anyhow... trust and loyalty and support was always one-way... and misery was all anyone could expect; it was one's lot in life for the security(?) of the marital relationship.
Or perhaps, it's the biblical "two become one" idea that they are trying to live out. Soul Twins, and all that. Regardless - it can all look and function like BPD; or like what river describes as the "master-slave" relationship, emotionally and psychically. It is mind-boggling to try to understand... there has to be a lot "suspension in the belief in reality" like some sci-fi movies use to get the viewer involved in accepting the plot-premises... and it can be just as scary as the worst horror story, too. It is, to my way of thinking - crazy, sick and insane. And it's diametrically opposed (and a perversion of) what we know as trust, respect, and the giving of love... in a real, mutually beneficial relationship where two individuals join in a committed partnership, yet remain themselves.
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I so understand that feeling, tt! Feel the same way about my bro...
I'll tell you what tho - in some ways, it's really helped ease the situation and lowered my anxiety about it, "owning" this feeling and knowing that if the situation escalates again, I'm within my rights legally (morally gets messier) to make a bigger seperation between us LEGAL. That's still out there in worst case scenario land, though. It will be very, very, very expensive and taxing on me emotionally to undertake... and I'm still looking for options, other solutions... or even learning to live with it, and simply creating new boundaries... or making subtle changes that still provide the same result.
I just had to own the feeling first. Regardless of how that might make me look to other people; what their attitudes about family are. It's how I can best protect myself, really. They aren't qualified to judge me until they are able to wear my size 9 narrows! Because once I know my desire for NC - even if it's not attainable now - I can do all kinds of things ... boundaries... agreements... to help me get there gradually. Perhaps, I'll find my comfort zone is somewhere just this side of complete NC, too.