Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: les on November 15, 2004, 08:43:54 PM
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I have read here and elsewhere that N's underneath their carefully arranged exteriors suffer from low self- esteem. (did I get that right, it still seems hard to grasp) I can appreciate that many N's or perhaps all N's will never know all the things they might have been because they are so busy keeping up appearances, but I wonder if there aren't some who through and through just think they are the cat's meow, right down to the last whisker. Any thoughts on the depths of their feelings of perfection?
Les
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can't resist...purrrfection.
Les
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Some Ns have a degree of awareness that something is wrong. Other Ns have no awareness and never will. It depends on how their defense systems work and how deep is their denial of reality.
bunny
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My NM thinks she is Perfection personified. She must be perfect, everything and everyone around her must be perfect. To not be perfect is to have no value. She only has friends who are 'the best', or 'the most important professionally', or have some sort of status (as seen thru her eyes), or have something she needs. She prefixes every comment with a description of a person's prestige, like a broken record. She thinks that association with 'important people' will somehow make her seem important as well. And her perception of herself is Perfect, even though, clearly to those of us around her, she is not. She not only believes she is perfect, but expects to be treated as such, as well.
She loves to tell me that she could have done something important with her life, if she had not had to look after me and my Dad.
I could write pages on Perfection as she lives it, and the horrendous pressure it has caused in the home. However, it is all for appearances, to impress anyone outside the home. Her bedroom looks like a hurricane hit it, and her closets are jammed to overflowing, papers everywhere...but that bedroom door is kept closed, so it is her little secret. (I think that is an important observation - it might be reflective of the real chaos in her mind!)
BTW, my parents always had separate bedrooms - NDad snored, was not perfect!
I was my own person, not her clone, therefore also not perfect.
I see her perfectionism as a series of props to hold up her false, phony, fake sense of who she Thinks she is.
Gee, starting to rant! Great thread!!!!!
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Seeker you are so funny! This is so familiar a script for me. But from where?
A boyfriend up in Washington, quite successful in Real Estate, that took a liking to me and thought he would so graciously provide me with everything he thought I would want to move up in the world.
Of course it was me trailing toilet paper out of the bathroom attached to my heel, or spilling something red down a cream dress. I remember twice! Twice! Someone leaning across the table at some fancy function we attended,uttering compulsivley to us, to me, just how innocent I looked! ( I, 37, He 45. Me, not really innocent at all. Me just not fitting in. ) He used to complain that I carried all my emotion in my face. That I didn't hold my face right. Yeah, how about that, it held a personalty.
This is a man who when dressed down, wore pressed and dry cleaned jeans. Jeans are my basic wardrobe.
I remember him leaning over the sink, his gut hanging out, primping. He'd turn sideways, suck it in, admire himself. His face was a permanent mask of disdain- despite the face lift. He would laugh at anyone overwieght, yet he was disgusting in his nakedness. The posturing on his part was repulsive.
I couldn't figure out what he wanted from me for the longest time. I know now. My simplicity, my innocence. I truly feel sorry for this man. He was surely one who - as Les put it - lived with 'carefully arranged exteriors'.
Phoenix
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Hi Phoenix!
Hugs and thanks for your message...it helped perk me up. My H says my reaction to this event is reason alone not to go back. He doesn't want to have to carry me out on a stretcher, because there's only one of him. :) I mean, I really feel like I was exposed to radiation or something. You could cut the hypocrisy with a knife.
What is truly amazing is how quickly, nanoseconds really, some Ns can size up if they need to know you or not. I break "rules" all the time because my dad didn't take the time or interest to teach his kids the rules (sort of a backhanded blessing) but still threw us into the soup (so NOT a blessing). Like, here, figure it out and make me look good even though I don't know what the h-ll I'm doing either but can't admit it.
One rule broken was talking to people I hadn't been introduced to by mutual acquaintance. Another rule broken was talking, smiling, and looking interested. Really, are these people happy? Really? Another giveaway was I expected this event to be hospitable. It was so unwelcoming (not just to me but in its organization, or should I say disorganization). The message I came away with was "we know everyone wants to be here, but we can't be bothered to acknowledge you until you are officially accepted into our membership." It always shocks me when I get hit in the face with an unspoken agenda. And I'm always amazed that other people "get" it right away. It makes me feel stupid.
It's confusing because I don't want to be like them but it still makes me angry when I feel rejected by these snobs. I hate snobbery but still have to deal with it. I also wondered about how many ACONs might have been at this event as well. Like, I really would enjoy talking to you but I would be disinherited if my mom saw me. Honestly, I thought I was doing all right but afterwards I felt like Ace Ventura at that fancy reception "Whooo! Do NOT go in there!"
Your exBF in drycleaned jeans reminds me of a father at our old school who had a logo on every piece of clothing he wore. That was my first clue of his PD. Number two was the select-a-vision. Of course, he couldn't see me. Clue number three is slicked back hair, a real Italian stallion, always showing off his profile. If a person succeeded in convincing him they were worthy of walking this earth, his earth really, then he was verrry nice and gentle, soft spoken, etc. I found out a couple of years later that he cheats on his wife constantly. Jerk.
But I'm one of those people who doesn't want to "dress the part" or give anything away. America is supposed to be a "classless" society. What a joke. I wear non-remarkable clothes also because I think I adapted to my invisibility at home. If I wore better clothes, my brother would tease me endlessly and embarrass me no end. If I didn't, my mother gave me the silent treatment. I couldn't win. So I disappeared in a sense. To be honest, I like to demonstrate to people how shallow they are when they realize that I'm not really the low-life they think I am just because I smile and wear jeans. :roll: It's my little way of rebelling.
I get the veiled putdown of the "innocent" remark of your XBF's friend. Jeez, you didn't hold your face right?! Then why didn't he notice before? If I told my brother about this he would get on my case about not sucking up appropriately (see above for Ndad script).
One thing I worry about is that some sharks look for innocents they can prey on, like my daughters. They are kind, honest and helpful. In today's world that is equivalent to saying I gave birth to space aliens.
Sorry everybody. Wow, I'm bitter today! Hopefully I can get back into my Peace Bubble soon. Hugs, Seeker
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My Ex N boyfriend had a interesting way of showing how "inflated he was" he grew up poor as can be but he had this weird fascinastion with labels. Like ketchup had to be Hunt's or maynaise had to be "Best foods" the list goes on and on. He had to wear designer clothes even though he couldn't afford them ( he never did have much of the way of a job). He liked Nike, Adidas, Tommy Hilfiker, etc. He told me more then a dozen times when he would be in his "depressed mood" and "control freak stage" that he was a God and that people had to respect him because if he had the right job, friends, girl friend, parents, car, house, clothes etc. people would bow to him because he knew EVERYTHING!! He thought he could fix anything from cars, people, relationships, etc you name it he knew how to fix it but if it came to his car, people, relationships etc is was NEVER his fault it was always theirs?? He was almost comical when I look back at how he would charm his way into people's life's. He would be a great case study!! I know God had me go through that experience for a reason I just haven't figured it all out and why?! Someday I will know! Thanks for the topic! Good to vent Have a great day! Kelly
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My H says my reaction to this event is reason alone not to go back. He doesn't want to have to carry me out on a stretcher, because there's only one of him. :) I mean, I really feel like I was exposed to radiation or something. You could cut the hypocrisy with a knife.
{{ Seeker }}
Sometimes we know within two seconds that we're incompatible with a social scene and we're horrified to be there. Then we're trapped and hope to make the best of it. But we're being tormented by rejection and people who seem completely comfortable being snobs. If unprepared, a person can feel really awful and ashamed. If prepared, a person can reframe it and think, "I'll just consume as much free food and drink as I can," and perhaps find another lost soul to commune with. And leave as soon as humanly possible.
bunny
P.S. It doesn't matter what the organization is, the upper echelons are always into PR, fundraising, and things that are snobby.
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Maybe I have a dark humor, but I am cracking up reading this thread. I can relate -- been there more than once. I am not into schmoozing (unless the job required it, and then I had to immediately take a shower), but because I have felt the "pre-rejection" snubs from overplucked eyebrows, I have been able to stand back and observe. Did you ever notice how a room full of N's (I used to just call them super-egos) will instantly size each other up, sometimes feeling threatened by another N, then squirreling around, jousting for position on the N ladder for Mr. Big N's favor. :)
what a bunch of clowns. -- pompous, arrogant jerks, hypocrites through and through. Too chilly in there for me. Give me a sincere smile and a coke or beer and tell me a story about your adventures -- I don't care how much money you have or where you came from. Just be real and honest and take advantage of NO ONE. :D
Seeker, pardon me for my smiling here. I can just see you in there all pretty, sweet and kind in a room full of pinch-faced, needle butts. You're there to serve a worthy cause, with a white heart and you get snubbed by those with an inappropriate sense of entitlement. I hope none of them asked you to get them a drink or a horses doover. I remember a party during which I had a wardrobe malfunction -- well, I wanted to melt into the floor. Now, when I look back at it I find it quite funny. I am sure I have fewer lines around my mouth than those prune faces in that room. Yes, it is a game -- I have heard that many times -- "you got to play the game to get what you want." I remember having to play tennis with the biggest snob, bore at the weekend function -- my face hurt from fake smiles. It was the longest 2 days of my life. No, thanks -- after being tormented by Nparents, sucking up to strangers is just too dang much work.
Phoenix, you are probably right -- Mr. Potgut real estate tycoon found your simplicity, independence, easy manner and sweet honesty refreshing. He could turn away from the mirror and relax with you.
Funny, I have always been able to laugh at snobs, but not at my Nparents. I guess it's too personal there.
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Seeker,
Some people are born with a status seeking personality...some of the SJ types like estj and esfj. They usually are affiliated with service organizations and institutions that actually do help. I'm wondering if you have a personality type such as NF or NT. I do and I know that the SJ functions aren't my cup of tea. Well, in fact I don't like social stuff anyway so in my later years (well I ain't that old) I just don't bother.
I am not the schmoozer type and usually find a quiet corner and some food and maybe one person to talk with. It's not so bad if you know going in (like Bunny said) what you're up against. I am so not concrete and the stuff these people talk about has zero interest, I can usually feign some interest and maybe press a few buttons (as in ask them questions since people like to talk about themselves), but otherwise I'm at a loss and usually pretty bored.
Don't take it personally. These people do know how to play the game and I am always glad I don't know how. But there are good people in that category and I'm glad they do the work they do. Fundraising and the like requires that type and I'd be no good there. But the downside of the equation is the status seekers. They probably aren't really mostly Ns though.
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Hey everybody!
THANK YOU! It is really wonderful to be supported here. Phew!
Guest, you are right. I think I'm an NF. My daughter is currently reading a book where one of the pulled out quotes is "some people are outsiders no matter where they go". And I have always felt that way. This event was a big bucket of cold water reminding me of that. I think my daughter is an NT or NF also and I see her suffer from the callousness of Ns at her school like I did when I was her age. I don't think I'm projecting my own stuff too much here.
My H is an SJ I think. He does enjoy status but still has a soul. He's also very serviced oriented and I would like to think that is the type of person you all are describing when there are nonNs helping out in a big way. He's a joiner for sure. I always joke about our "mixed marriage". But he's very protective & loyal and that is something I cherish, since I didn't have that growing up.
DG, plucked eyebrows! :lol: Now that's funny. I wish I could laugh at them in the moment but I can't. I just get so disgusted. I can, however, enjoy being a fly on the wall and observing two Ns lock horns and then complain about each other later. (My Ndad can't stand the Academy Awards! :roll: ) Maybe we could have a beer together some day and tell those botoxic people to get REAL!
And hi Bunny: it was shocking because we knew many nice people who were also going. We bumped into one friend and we both went into ACON mode "Hiyeeeee." H and I shot out of there like an organ rejection within an hour. It was a two+ hour event. Maybe it's because I'm finally more aware of what's really going down.
Finally hello Only Me, KellyGinger and Les. Les, sorry I hijacked your thread. I guess it was an Nmergency! :shock: Big wraparound hugs to all of you! I needed that! XO, Seeker
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Rant away Only Me and Seeker. It's good for you - I'm beginning to learn.
No problem about the thread Seeker. I don't think any threads stay rigidly on topic for too long. Definitely an N emergency. Your N event reminds me of a movie I saw where all the people at the party would gaze over the shoulder of the person they were "talking" to, scanning for better prospects. You are a very funny woman even in the midst of your distress - out of there like a rejected organ!
Only Me - these mothers, honestly. My mother has Her Story, in which at the age of 2 she was crowned "Little Miss Perfection." 100% perfect baby. It's fresh in my mind because she told the SW the story last Friday. After telling HER story she said, "Well, I know I'm not perfect (she said oh so modestly) but perhaps I could say I have trouble with "imperfection." (cue batting of eyelashes -where do they get that!) Oh god, lock me away!
Bunny -I'm still processing what you said. So the extent to which they view themselves as perfect has to do with the extent of their denial of reality? Having lived with "Little Miss Perfection" all my life there is something about this I just can't grasp. My mother's story includes breathtaking drama in which the doctors deliberate and compare notes finally having to say that of the last 2 contestants - the boy is 98% but try as they might they are forced to declare the girl 100% -I think maybe I bought the story too having heard it all my life and experienced it everyday! Hmm just wondered how the 98% baby did in life. Thanks all.
Les
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Kelly here: Guys I always find these threads when the "regulars" have made comments. I have this sense of "deja vu" all the time - like I am reading about myself and experiences!! It's kind of spooky!!
Here's one. My daughter goes to a private school and my nmom pays her tuition. She is also a contributor to the school (who has many fund raisers, banquets, etc.)
Anyway, one of the perfect people is a mother of a girl my daughter's age. They both have gone to the school since kindergarten and are now seniors!! (13 years........) Well, I invited the daughter of "Mrs. Perfect" to several birthday parties in the early years and sometimes I got a polite, NO, and sometimes I just got nothing - silence.
Well, funny how when "Mrs. Perfect" realized my parents had money - my status changed. Now this girl and my daughter are best friends. Only thing is, "Mrs. Perfect" calls me occasionally to tell me what I am doing wrong in raising my kids. I was a single parent and had three girls and the logistics were crazy!!!
Well, low and behold, "Mrs. Perfect" drove her husband away (since she forbade him to invite friends over to watch the game and have a few beers..........geez, let's lose a marriage over that one!!) and suddenly she was a little more sympathetic to me for not being everywhere and everything to everyone!!
Anyway, so they have a ground breaking ceremony at the new school that they are building and they gave my mom a golden shovel (along with other large contributors...............) so my nmom waves me up to the front and introduces me to a couple I had already met and the woman obviously had had major plastic surgery and I was SOOOO close to saying "Yes, I've met you before, but Sue, you look so much different! Did you do something to your hair?????" But instead I just said, "Yes we've met before.......................hello, how are you doing?"
BUT I THOUGHT IT. AND I THINK ALL THOSE PEOPLE ARE SUCH POSERS AND I REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT ALL THAT. I would rather be myself and say some nonsequiter and see what someone says!!
Oh, and what are all these SF and NTs? Don't know all that lingo.
Thanks for this thread - I have lived with a perfect mom for many years. I think she started out with a low self esteem and then was hell bent to make something of herself, and has................and now she is perfect and expects everyone else to be HER perfection.
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Seeker,
I'm a bit confused here by the way you use the term N. Are you saying that these persons are afflicted with NPD? Or are you saying that these persons are self absorbed? Or is it something else that you are referring to?
If you or your daughter are an NF or NT personality type, the other kids at school and adults now are not necessarily being callous or N. But they have a very different way of being in the world and of course they may be very unappealing to you. That is very different than being N. I understand this because I was always an outsider and didn't fit in. And when you're different, people (kids especially) can seem very cruel. It might help your daughter to get the book by David Keirsey "Please Understand Me". It is a very good book and is even on the curriculum in some colleges that have communications courses.
I will admit to being a bit uncomfortable with calling people Ns when that label might not be accurate. It just doesn't do the discussion of serious N problems any good imo when it's applied too broadly. I'm not trying to get on your case so I will apologize in advance if it seems that way. But I would just like a clarification when you get time. And thanks.
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Wow, this was fascinating. Thanks for sharing it.
My mother has Her Story, in which at the age of 2 she was crowned "Little Miss Perfection." 100% perfect baby. It's fresh in my mind because she told the SW the story last Friday. After telling HER story she said, "Well, I know I'm not perfect (she said oh so modestly) but perhaps I could say I have trouble with "imperfection." (cue batting of eyelashes -where do they get that!) Oh god, lock me away!
This legend about a beauty contest at age two is the key to your mom. Her emotional development pretty much ended with the beauty contest. She was unconsciously trying to tell the social worker that she is a toddler, and hopes the SW will attune to her correctly. Two-year-olds are very grandiose and demand admiration for any little thing they do. Unfortunately she's still frozen there. It's pretty bad for those who've had to deal with her.
So the extent to which they view themselves as perfect has to do with the extent of their denial of reality?
An N's cognitive distortions can be really severe, where they believe themselves to be superior and entitled to any behavior they want, with no repercussions or consequences whatsoever. Those who are grounded in reality know this isn't how life works. Some Ns have major cognitive distortions and accompanying fantasies of grandiosity, and others have milder distortions. The milder ones are aware that something is wrong with them. Even your mother is aware that not everyone buys how perfect she is. However that brief glimpse of awareness is only to keep her supply from abandoning her. Then it vanishes and she reverts back to cognitive distortion/fantasies.
My mother's story includes breathtaking drama in which the doctors deliberate and compare notes finally having to say that of the last 2 contestants - the boy is 98% but try as they might they are forced to declare the girl 100% -I think maybe I bought the story too having heard it all my life and experienced it everyday! Hmm just wondered how the 98% baby did in life. Thanks all.
This is very telling about how one can quickly lose the "contest" (adults' approval and caregiving) by being only 98% perfect. I'm sure she identifies with the runner-up and is terrified that others will agree she is only 98% and abandon her.
bunny
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Hi all,
Guest, about the gathering-- I really did mean N. Perhaps it was a reaction to the overall culture, but it was definitely one that smacked of entitlement and grandiosity/superiority. The fact that the appointed "greeters" couldn't greet anyone they didn't know (I don't just mean me) was just for appetizers. It was the "if you were worth knowing, I would know you already" message that came through that made this more than a personality type issue for me, I feel.
I do appreciate your distinction though. It does apply to my D's situation. But I am also referring to the difficult middle school years (for D). Many people tell me high school is better, so my fingers are crossed. I've read that book and it was very eye-opening. I felt less like an oddball knowing there was a whole category just for me. :wink: But when you witness a group of girls running AWAY from your own child when she shows up where she also belongs, I would call that callous.
Anyway, I think your point (and I agree) is that there is a difference between being narcissistic and having full blown destructive NPD. Frankly, I think the PD is far more prevalent that psychologists state. Or maybe it's just the part of the country I'm in. But in the time I've been on the board, we discuss the full spectrum. I hope that clears up any confusion.
OK, now who asked about NF, NT etc? I can't scroll down this thread :? ...these letters are a sort of short hand for the Myers Briggs personality categories. There are actually four dichotomies: extravert/introvert, intuition/sensing, thinking/feeling, and perceptive/judging. I don't think I can do justice to the whole topic here, but you can go to www.keirsey.com or www.personalitypage.com to explore more. I think I am an INFP. I can be very outgoing when needed, very friendly, but the key is how do you get your energy? I get mine by withdrawing and being alone, therefore, introverted.
OK, well, gotta do a search on "cognitive distortion". Wanna learn more about that... :wink: Peace, Seeker
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I compliment you Seeker for not taking the bait. You handled that very well.
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DG,
That wasn't bait. That was a legit question and I still maintain that using that term too broadly kind of gives it less legitimacy. We do explore the full spectrum here, but calling people Ns instead of saying the atmosphere was narcissistic has a whole different meaning. It may be confusing for people.
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General comment here. Most of us understand that we do not need to be precise in every word around here to be understood, and most of us have the radar to know a N when we see one. We know what we feel, and we know what we see, and we do not need to be picked apart needlessly. We get our share in the real world, thank you. 8)
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Sounded like bait. Yes, I would say generically using any form of the word Narcissism would spread the black ink too broadly and be confusing, much the same as is another challenging, tit-for-tat, nitpicking Guest go round. Put your name on your own words before you criticize another's.
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Well, I'm not going to reply to the last poster. But let me say this. I am not trying to invalidate anything Seeker went through. They are obviously her perceptions. But by placing blame on all the "Ns" at her daughter's school and at the social function it is causing a lost learning opportunity imo. Instead of calling all of these people Ns, it might be more productive to try to understand why these people are so different than you and learn why people react the way they do. That's why I brought up the personality type thing. It's very germain to the discussion and it could help Seeker's daughter a great deal. I know because I went through this type of thing my whole life. Beleive me, it's not so painful if you understand why others are the way they are. It can also help you learn new and better coping techniques. And again, all these people are not Ns.
It really does dilute the discussion of real N problems by calling a whole group of people Ns because they don't comport with your world perception. That's not an indictement, it's an observation. I have heard people on this board call others Ns when they disagreed with the way they've stated something or had a different opinion or didn't respond as the person thought they should. There are 4 major categories of personality types and four divisions of those four type. That's 16 different types! That means there are not only 16 different general personality types but other variations depending on upbringing. I'm saying that perhaps we could be more tolerant and seek to understand better rather than being reactive. People in the world at large are mostly SJs and SPs, so if you are an NF or NT, your way of life and thoughts are somewhat at odds with the majority. The majority isn't bad, but different (and I admit that sometimes I don't always find them appealing). But there are things in us that aren't appealing to them either. This isn't a bad thing to learn. And I don't geta profit from recommending Keirsey's book, but it's a lot better and more informative than the web site.
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Running the risk of setting myself up, I just want to say that many of us have spent our entire lives attempting to placate the entire world as we knew it, and some of us now must do what we can to become strong ourselves. We have perceptions based on our experiences, and if we inadvertantly lump a group of people together, then so be it. Hopefully we can be understanding of one another, and realize that we are each on a journey towards strength and health, and we need and deserve support. It is our turn to grow. We do not need to be criticized unnecessarily for semantics or psych terminology. Pardon me if this sounds abrupt, but sometimes it is very tiring to try to be perfect all the time. Just my opinion .... :roll:
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I agree Only Me. Well said. Maybe we can all cut each other a little slack here
and not get too hung up in Word Perfect precision. The first post I made on the board was so tightly edited it took me hours to write. I was so afraid. I know I need to relax a bit if I'm going to speak or write. I can see that guest was trying to be helpful and share her considerable knowledge. Speaking ONLY for myself I always suspect snipers at the end of every sentence as it is! I have a little sniper set of my own that ride around on my shoulders willing to commence firing if no one else shows up to shoot me down! (just got carried away there -not suggesting that guest had these intentions at all, only that I am my own personal firing range, providing ammunition and target)
Les
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OK, hold it everybody.
First: Let me say I'm a little disappointed. I rarely vent and this time when I did, I got called on it. Phooey. Again a big thank you to all that supported my right to air my feelings for once. I don't think I was "blaming" anyone, but there I go, explaining....
Second: Let me further explain myself in that I have attended many similar social functions such as this one, and this was the FIRST in which I felt I had entered a full-on SHARK TANK. If I told you it was a bunch of Hollywood actors and actresses and producers, would that convince you of the Nness of this particular and specific crowd? They weren't, but I am not going to reveal more particulars to validate my perception. And frankly, deny as you may, you have called into question my perceptions.
Third, Guest, you asked for more particulars, actively sought evidence of my MISperceptions. I cooperated and then you criticized the result. You did apologize, and my last response allowed you the benefit of the doubt. If you think I am losing a learning experience, sorry. I posted to vent and I posted to learn--therefore exposing QED my ignorance and need for edifying. All the previous responses have been very helpful.
And yes, the book is better than the website. To quote Chinatown, "You're right. And when you're right, you're right." I was trying to be expedient for those who didn't have any information at all. For crying out loud, if you want me to say it I will. You are much more perceptive than me. But I'm still entitled to my feelings.
I have to ask, what button of yours is getting pushed by my post? Are you a member of a charity organization and feel that your motivations and membership are being questioned by my opinions about my own singular experience? (I want to emphasize that I am not generalizing about all groups, just this one.)
I wasn't posting to rattle anyone's cage, but apparently cages are rattling now.
Over and out, Seeker
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My cage isn't rattled. And I'm not angry or defensive or anything at all. Thank you Les for seeing that I was TRYING to be helpful. No, I'm not involved in a charity organization and I don't see what I said as even being critical. I guess people see things differently and that is exactly my point. If you want to vent, Seeker, that is fine. But I distinguished a different point of view and I kept on my subject. I didn't denigrate anyone or say they had to word everything perfectly. Perfect wording was so not the point.
I do want to make sure people can say things here without the echo chamber effect. Everyone communicates differently and what is said could be given due course in stead of dismissed as trying to start a fight (which I wasn't).
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Guest,
You're missing my point.
You bring up personality types and differences in communication. That was informative. But I stand by what I said. This wasn't about personality types. It was about the whole dynamic of narcissism. And I will use the term as I see fit.
But by placing blame on all the "Ns" at her daughter's school and at the social function it is causing a lost learning opportunity imo.
It really does dilute the discussion of real N problems by calling a whole group of people Ns because they don't comport with your world perception. That's not an indictement, it's an observation.
You are saying this is not a real N problem. And that is your opinion and you are entitled to it of course. Sometimes it isn't what we say, but how we say it. Even if we are well intended.
It's interesting that others were able to respond with caring and compassion and your posts, though informative, were to dissect and analyze. I just wanted to be heard. I still don't feel heard by you.
I have not judged an entire personality type. And it is your perception that I have.
I guess we will just disagree. Do me a favor. If I choose to vent again in the year 2006, you can skip the thread. I don't need people to tell me that by getting angry I'm missing important lessons. I have my father to tell me that. And by your definition, that's a "real" N problem.
Seeker
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And I'm not angry or defensive or anything at all.
No, but I am.
Thank you for pointing out and staying on topic about how I am misusing the word narcissism and how my post would really dilute discussion.
Let me make this perfectly clear. I am PISSED!
Now tell me why I shouldn't feel this way. Tell me how you didn't MEAN to make me feel this way. Tell me how I'm not seeing it correctly. Or that the fact that our world views don't match, then perhaps I have more to learn (obviously). Tell me everything. Explain. But DON'T apologize. Because you are right. And when people are right, they have nothing to apologize for.
Feel better? Feeling fine? Oh goody. You are the equivalent of the person who, when someone is crying and others are listening, come over to say "well, you should haven't done that. You should have done this. What did I say? I'm just trying to be helpful." I just want people to listen for once. But it is obviously more important to you to jump in and feel knowledgable.
I know the script by heart. I grew up listening to it. Thanks.
Seeker
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Seeker,
I've only been on this site for a couple of days now. I'm not sure that I will keep up with this. What I was hoping to find here was kind, caring, and compasionate support and advice. A lot of time that is what happens, but I've read lots of the past postings and this kind of thing seems to happen frequently around here. I'm very thin skinned - which my Nmom loves to point out to me. After 26 years of being attacked it is hard for me, and I'm sure some of you, to not take things personally. After being critisized for all of my life, about 2 years ago, I finally got to a point where I just wasn't going to take it anymore. Well, for the most part. It seems like I will never be strong enough to break away from my Nmom and her belittling ways. My point is - you have the right to rant and rave. We all have plenty of people in our lives to correct our behavior, but what we sometimes need is just to be heard.
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But by placing blame on all the "Ns" at her daughter's school and at the social function it is causing a lost learning opportunity imo.
I didn't read it as placing blame on the people at the social function. I saw it as someone traumatized by an experience due to naivete, yearnings for acceptance from unavailable people, disillusionment, etc.
Instead of calling all of these people Ns, it might be more productive to try to understand why these people are so different than you and learn why people react the way they do. That's why I brought up the personality type thing. It's very germain to the discussion and it could help Seeker's daughter a great deal.
I think she was trying to understand why the experience was traumatic and why the people were acting that way (i.e., hoping for a reality check).
I am not helped by personality types and I use different criteria to look at people's behavior. I agree that understanding human behavior (however you do it) is very useful and pragmatic.
bunny
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Guest- Is this the very first post you ever visited here, and haven’t noticed that in prior posts there is common understanding on this board in distinguishing between narcistic attitudes, expressions, etc., and true NPD itself?
Do I have to explain every time I post about my dad that No he has not actually been diagnosed as NPD- that I can rely on others here to understand I am having trouble with him to some degree of Nism- whether full blown or just aggravating quirks of personality?
Seeker- We all got it, you know that we do, please don’t change a thing about yourself , your posts; you are wonderful. (((hugs)))Phoenix
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Seeker- We all got it, you know that we do, please don’t change a thing about yourself , your posts;
Coudn't have said it better myself.
I rant, you rant, we all rant!!! and it's a good thing! This is one place where we can be ourselves, and what could be better than that? :wink:
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Okay, I give up. If hyperbole and exaggeration is what you were doing, I didn't get it. So my bad. But this place is a hotbed of echo chamber thinking. I don't feel like you "got" what I was saying either and only Les seemed to get an idea. So go ahead and bash me for not echoing well enough.
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Gee whiz, guys, isn't this thread all about perfectionism and what a lot of us had and still have to put up with in our family of origin, or in some relationships? I understand that my nmom surrounds herself with like people and when I go to certain functions with her, I find myself in a group of people who feel the need to "act" like they are perfect or better than other people. Isn't that kind of the definition of N? To have a bigger ego than necessary and to make other people feel lower than they are to make themselves feel good about themselves????? And isn't it true that an overinflated ego is very apparent? Especially if you have been victimized by a nparent all your life? Don't you think that a child that has grown up with all that stuff is VERY aware of it??
So semantics aside...................................whoever and whatever these people are and whatever labels you want to put on them.............sometimes you can find yourself in a group of people where you do NOT feel welcome................Some may be Ns and others might just be A**holes!!
Kelly
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Okay, I give up. If hyperbole and exaggeration is what you were doing, I didn't get it.
That isn't what I was doing. You still don't get it.
So my bad.
What is this?
But this place is a hotbed of echo chamber thinking.
What does this mean? You mean other people saying the same thing? If so, I find this hotbed helpful because people confirm they understand what the other poster is saying. Which is precisely what you and I are struggling with right now. Which is precisely what we all didn't get growing up with Ns of every stripe. Some of us are trying to heal as well as "understand". Sorry if my emotional post was confusing to the definition of narcissism. My bad.
I don't feel like you "got" what I was saying either
I did but it isn't what I needed at the time. And this story was about me, remember?
and only Les seemed to get an idea.
Let's give her a sticker. No offense, Les.
So go ahead and bash me for not echoing well enough.
I will. My feelings are still raw and you repeatedly asked for "clarification". Then criticized my characterization of my predicament. I do feel traumatised by this. You even stated that my post was not a "real" N problem!!! I do bash you for your insensitivity. Jesus, this is the unholy definition of discounting someone else's problems! But of course you don't see that. But you do have the benefit of becoming the center of this thread now.
Now instead of raging away about a room full of snobs, you have become the target of my anger. If you know so much about NF personality types, you would know how sensitive I am and how much it took for me to open up about my very own feelings. I usually listen and encourage others. So once I open up about a very specific event, exposing myself and you stomp all over it, and intellectualize it.
I am angry (that's an emotion, to clarify) to the point of tears. Tears because the other posters understand so well and tears because you don't. This is becoming a whole demonstration of my family dynamic. Now you all know so much more about me.
+++
Flowers 12. I hope my outburst hasn't scared you off.
Kelly: Your post made me smile! So right on. I get so sick of the hairsplitting and you hit a home run. I feel understood.
Bunny, Phoenix, OnlyMe, Les, and DG. Thank you so much for answering the call and being here. More hugs, Seeker
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Guest said:
Okay, I give up. If hyperbole and exaggeration is what you were doing, I didn't get it. So my bad. But this place is a hotbed of echo chamber thinking. I don't feel like you "got" what I was saying either and only Les seemed to get an idea. So go ahead and bash me for not echoing well enough.
:) I don't hear an echo-chamber, I hear something called validation...
When everything you say has been hitting a brick wall all your life, or put through the mincer... It must come as a relief to be really heard
It's hard to describe this to someone who has never been told that their feelings and thoughts are always wrong.
To be told this from childhood must be numbing. To be able to speak your truth and be heard must be like coming home in some ways, to a home you have never had.
Nobody is bashing, this can just be an emotional place.
Love to you all. Finding my voice too :D
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Maybe this could help someone here, I found it interesting....
http://eqi.org/invalid.htm#Examples%20of%20invalidating%20expressions.
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Thank you Gardener,
This is a great link. I read the whole thing and it really eased my frustration (along with the notes from friends here). I felt like I was screaming inside my head.
How ironic that the book recommended above is "Please Understand Me", not "Please Understand Them".
Validation. That is the antidote. Thank you for this. Seeker
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Hi Gardener, congratulations for having let us know about this so good site!!
I have not read everything within it (yet :mrgreen: ) but the the few pages I have read were really great :D !!!
A big thank you :wink: from Resilient Lady
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That is a great site, gardener!
Seeker - You didn't do anything wrong. Have a great day and don't let anything spoil it.
bunny
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Thanks Bunny,
Your support means a lot to me.
:) Seeker
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Guest go round. Put your name on your own words before you criticize another's.
Guest, take not notice. It was easy for a-non-defensive type to read and understand you meant no harm. You can be guest, nobody here can or should order you to do anything.
:lol: It's just another typical Discounted-Girl order! :roll:
Disco Guy 8)
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There is one thing that’s been nagging away about Guest in this thread and it’s this:
We do explore the full spectrum here, but calling people Ns instead of saying the atmosphere was narcissistic has a whole different meaning. It may be confusing for people.
Guest, I could see your point, although I don’t know why you made it here. Why not start another thread and thereby not criticise seeker? Can you see why seeker got angry? Why just start up this topic in the middle of a thread? I don’t get it. I’m willing to listen though – maybe on another thread! Do you see my point? If you want to say something about how people who come here talk about Ns and N-ism here, why not start a thread? You seem interested in it. Why not invite a conversation? I'll join in.
It’s the last part of the quote above that niggles me: “It may be confusing for people.”
What people? Sorry Guest (here comes a criticism) but this statement hints of a superior ‘I know what’s best for other people’ attitude, to me. Dangerous stuff. The sort of attitude that can come from highly responsible introverts – those introverts who want to be responsible for everything so that they don’t have to admit the everyday chaos around them. Impose order and objectives. Dictatorial stuff if taken to extreme.
Every action has good and bad consequences. Including this one.
Guest, I’m pointing this out to you for your own good ha ha ha! Hope you enjoy the ironic humour there. Can you share a joke Guest? I can laugh at my own ‘dictatorial’ leanings. Sometimes, when it’s not a matter of national or universal importance. That’s a joke!
Course, what I’m really posting for is to deflect from Discounted Girl. But then no-one here can be ordered to do anything. There’s no carrot or stick. So any ‘orders’ are just words and Guests will post as Guests as they choose to. Fair enough. And DG doesn’t need me to deflect do you DG? So I might annoy you DG by saying that!
And Disco-Guy, well, I dunno. Obviously Guest will post if they want to, they’re not going to rely on you to say it’s okay are they? Or maybe they will. I don’t know. But heck, what a whack to DG! What was that for? Have you, Disco Guy got some personal animosity towards DG? It sure sounds like it! I wonder why?
And what consequences will my post have? Getting involved in other peoples’ stuff for no reason other than…..than what?
….than I think that last post is pretty dumb. It’s the laughing emoticon that gets to me. Laughing with someone is great, laughing at them in a taunting way is soooo childish. Someone ‘wants a fight’ and heck, why for goodness sake? Why not just leave it as some support for Guest and keep it helpful? Instead of deliberately baiting DG and intending to hurt. I don’t get it. I don’t get why DG is getting a taunt like that.
Hey Gardner, I read all your link, good stuff – thank you, and nice to see you again. P
I just read this thread again and now I've got more thoughts. I don't know if original Guest to seeker meant it as 'bait'. I don't think Guest saw that it might be taken as bait. And I get the intellectual reasoning vs. the feeling. Tricky stuff. Original Guest: you remind me of me trying to get through to my parents and being called 'evil' because I would question everything with logic (before being shouted down or just ignored). I can see what you wanted to do earlier, but choosing to do it with another person's experience - you're going to get slammed. It's heartless.
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Hi Portia & all,
Just wanted to check in here and let everyone know I've calmed down considerably. I understand why the outbreak of weirdness on this thread occurred and I was pretty blinded by emotion. One of Guest's posts triggered something in me, unbeknownst to Guest. I can now see Guest was not trying to set me off. Gardener's link helped me to see why I was.
Big handshake and hug to Guest. :) I think we both learned something. Perhaps it was because Guest was in Thinking mode and I was definitely in Feeling mode, for sure, that things went sideways. My apologies to Guest for taking the brunt of it.
This isn't a feud, just a misunderstanding which I consider resolved and have moved on. I think perhaps Guest has too (I mean to other topics, not other boards, I hope).
Group hug! Thank you all again for picking me up off the floor.
Love, Seeker
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Hey (((seeker))). Very glad you feel like you do! :D I'm just waiting for DGirl to come and whump my ass 8) (is that expression right?) for intruding here. And seeker, it was okay to read you 'giving it some', standing up for your stuff. Why not? It's okay. It's okay to get angry. Yeah! You said your truth. What more could anyone ask for?
I thought it was all pretty healthy until I saw that laughing emoticon today. Now that got to me. Because there was nothing to laugh about in that post. Some sort of sick humour. Hmm. Ah well. :roll: P
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Ah ((Seeker)).
Well I know this isn't about me (new book -Why is nothing about me!) lol
but I certainly learned something, well many things in this thread, so maybe (oh for heavens sake stop babbling and just say it) I'll just jump in again. When they were young my daughters were quite fractious, often fighting with each other and my husband was very short tempered in these child- raising years. I was forever saying things like, "Oh I think what she really meant was"...."Now I don't think your father means it in that way"... ver very exhausting really. I can see above all else I wanted/want everyone to get along. Fighting, just raised voices, has always triggered the pacifier in me. In addition to my parents being N's they were both alcoholics so the fights were ugly and now with no need to fight there is still a combative aura to everything my mother says and does.
So, I am so full of admiration for people who aren't afraid to say what they think and feel. Take a stand. I want to do more of it. But I also want everything and everybody to be safe. Can't always have both I guess. How to reconcile these 2 needs? I think I've just discovered why my children were so frustrated with their Polyanna mother.
Anyway, I'm loving the peace that has been restored.
Les
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Thankyou Gardener for the link.
Portia asked,
Have you, Disco Guy got some personal animosity towards DG?
No. None :lol: I commented to draw attention to something that had a negative domino affect.
It sure sounds like it!
Thank You Portia for your honesty, and I am not about to argue with you about your assumptions. We are all free to think whatever we want to. Of course you are entitled to impose your own personal interpretation and meaning structure into my words.
I wonder why?
I repeat. I have no personal animosity towards DG. Your assumptions that you are wondering about me are wrong.
I am also wondering about things here as well.
I wonder why did DG immediately assume the worst of Guest? Why did DG turn her immediate assumptions into solid negative innuendo by calling Guest's comments 'bait'? I felt that type of thing was quite typical of DG. That is a personal observeration and opinion I hold at the moment about DG's style.
I wonder another thing as well. I wonder if any manners will be shown here to Guest. I wonder will DG come back and apologise to Guest? She's made negative comments about Guest. Will she come back now, say something positive, and correct her misunderstanding?
I felt the 'bait' comment of DG's was very leading. I also felt it was imposing an ungrounded suspicion and mysterious negative agenda to Guest. It was was easy and simple to me to see what Guest was saying. It appeared to me to be not 'bait' but merely interest and exchange.
It appears clear to all now that there was no 'bait' and apologies are in order.
Until then, my assumptions about DG stand. The charge of 'bait' by DG was silly unfair innuendo, negative suggestion and suspicion and mildly combative. DG felt justified in her assumptions and continued on that line by following up later even with an order to Guest to name themselves.
These comments to and about Guest were based on a negative and untrue assumption by DG that she was happy the throw around. They were out of order and her one accusatory comment seemed to lead her and justify her making another.
This type of thing may or may not be common here, but is it acceptable? Is Guest not entitled to validation and acceptance here too?
Disco Guy
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Oh boy, I wasn't going to post on this thread again, but Portia, I have to reply to you. Thanks for the deflective shield -- you are sweet. You have had lots of practice I think in recent months deflecting attacks. "Whump" your ass -- hahahaha -- you are funny. Sometimes around here they say "Boy, I'll whup on you like a red-headed step chile," -- or "I was so mad, I kicked the dog and spit in the fare." j/k Actually, I can go for two or three days at a time without running into any hicks.
That's the third time some unnamed guest suggested I give orders. I wonder when and to whom I gave orders. I wonder about this -- truly I wonder. I don't see a wondering emoticon or I would surely use it. At first I got all excited when I saw the last remark came from Disco Guy -- it reminded me to watch Saturday Night Fever over the weekend. I hope Disco Guy (maybe she, oh, excuse me, he is the biker dude of the Village People?) is Stayin' Alive - and regardless of her, errr, I mean his hopes, "I Will Survive" regardless of little snickers. Funny how you can get a cyber-opinion of another's personality. In the flesh and blood world people say that I should not go to the great lengths I do to avoid being bossy. Things get distorted many times on these forums; however, I know I am honest, that I have strong convictions and that I would never purposely hurt anyone's feelings on an internet forum or in person. I just don't like sneaks and hypocrites and I see nothing wrong with saying that.
As I was getting ready to submit this post, I got an email saying there was another Perfection post. Now I see that Mr. Disco has posted again. Seems to me there is a lot of wondering going on around here.
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I am the original guest and decided to take a couple of days to stay off the board. But I guess I am a typical guy. Someone presents with a problem (I didn't know Seeker was venting - how would I know that? I took her literally) and decided to put across what I thought was a reality based solution in a general way. Guys will usually offer a solution to someone because we are wired that way. I don't do the touchy-feely thing as well as women. I will admit that.
I think Disco guy is right about DG starting something that didn't need to be started. I think if you all were honest you could see that.
One more thing. This is a public posting board and not everyone will hear you. Even those who said they took my point, obviously really didn't. If you don't want to see what I wrote in an objective manner, then you see what you want. And Seeker, I will not take the power you were giving me. I don't, in fact, have such power. Sorry, peeps. I am an NT and we are not understood in this world. And I am a male and you females can be needlessly sensitive and bashing sometimes without due cause. There are many problems on this board by this. That's my opinion. You don't have to agree and probably won't. Thanks, Disco guy for injecting a male perspective. Whew!!!
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Oh Sorry, forgot one thing. Somebody asked what an echo chamber is. It is an internet blog/board where like minded people get together to pretty much reinforce each other's view. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. The advantages are obvious. The disadvantages are that sometimes people can get too comfortable with the same idea without introducing new ideas and it makes them less able to cope after being in a cocoon of sameness. I've been reading too many political internet blogs - it happens there all the time.
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Oh, Mr. Disco, you little rascal -- who are you who keeps stirring up trouble on this board -- why do you do it (more wondering)? I suppose it shall always be a mystery.
You said you:
" ... felt that type of thing was quite typical of DG. That is a personal observeration [sic] and opinion I hold at the moment about DG's style."
I have never started a conflict on this forum. You hold an opinion on my style? What style do you have and I'm not talking about dancin'? No one can even see your name to discern a style.
You said you:
" ... wonder will DG come back and apologise [sic] to Guest? She's made negative comments about Guest. Will she come back now, say something positive, and correct her misunderstanding?"
No, and I am still trying to find that wondering emoticon.
You said:
"It appears clear to all now that there was no 'bait' and apologies are in order ... These comments to and about Guest were based on a negative and untrue assumption by DG that she was happy the [sic] throw around. They were out of order and her one accusatory comment seemed to lead her and justify her making another."
Mr. Disco, you sound very pompous and authoritative. That's just the personal observation and opinion I hold at the moment. You ruled on orders twice there. I thought I gave the orders around here. Maybe next time you can Guest in as Robert's Rules.
p.s. You might want to use spell check sometimes.
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Oh Sorry, forgot one thing. Somebody asked what an echo chamber is. It is an internet blog/board where like minded people get together to pretty much reinforce each other's view. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. The advantages are obvious. The disadvantages are that sometimes people can get too comfortable with the same idea without introducing new ideas and it makes them less able to cope after being in a cocoon of sameness. I've been reading too many political internet blogs - it happens there all the time.
Thankyou guest for explaining the echo chamber comment :D . There is so much truth in what you say about this. The advantages and also disadvantages. :roll: At the end of the day it's all growth and learning though, isn't it?
At least that is, if one can maintain an objective independent mind. Even an echo chamber of common issues can have much to teach. Becoming aware of our own discomfort when presented with presumably conflicting ideas is a true growth experience. Or how about observing our own rejection or resistance to anything that doesn't resemble our chosen cocoon. :D That can be fun if we're willing.
Thanks Guest for the health check.
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You are welcome.
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Hello again,
Well, this is getting sort of interesting. I'm glad Guest is here so we can explore the intricacies of invalidation. He'll give the whole class (many co-eds here) as many demonstrations as needed until we conform to his world view (great internet term, dude!) BTW why are you here? What is your story?
First, I will admit that I shared DG's perception about bait but decided to ignore it and answer plainly the first go around.
But Guest (dude!), I'll have to cut you some slack (something you seem to appreciate) because this is apparently your first impression of me. I don't usually go off on people. But oh yeah, you're busy recovering from the shock of being wrong by Being Right. How does this happen?
You said:
And Seeker, I will not take the power you were giving me. I don't, in fact, have such power. Sorry, peeps. I am an NT and we are not understood in this world. And I am a male and you females can be needlessly sensitive and bashing sometimes without due cause.
Wow. This sounds like a wounded ego. And bait (now). Did you take a peek at Gardener's link? Or do you know it all, being the Rational Guy you are? And what power? Now I don't know what you are talking about. You can't just graciously accept my peace offering? BTW, I notice you still don't think you did anything wrong. I wasn't giving to get, but I do feel your response nullifies mine.
Go to Gardener's link.
So being NT is a free pass for not being understood, but I am branded for being female? Wow. now I know what I'm dealing with. Perhaps you should head down to the university and sign up for Emotional Intelligence 101A. You may find it refreshingly challenging since you have Rational Man down to a tee. Find out why saying "you females" might be interpreted as bait. The whole syllabus is on the Invalidation link from Gardener. That's where you'll find the "due cause". Honestly. It will do you and the women you meet a world of good.
Go to Gardener's link.
Don't believe me. I'm female.
Go to Gardener's link.
No, don't apologize. I'll wait here for more crumbs of wisdom from you, Rational Man. I'll sit here with folded hands, real nice, looking up to you, waiting for you to explain the ways of the world to me. I'm batting my eyes now in admiration. Waiting for the dulcet tones of Reason. Of Sanity. Of Wisdom. Of Intelligence. Ah, the highly prized gifts of Gods. Never mind the gifts of Caring, Compassion, Listening, and Love. Wimps! Weaklings! Women! And yet, there you are, shaking your head, still trying to figure out how the human heart works. There are no diagrams, charts, manuals. Just Feelings. Men have them too as you might notice from your wounded ego. Oh, that's right. You are allowed to have your feelings and still be respected and admired. If someone else has them, you should be condescending as hell.
Go to Gardener's link. Go ahead. No one will see you. Take a chance on a different world view. Practice what you preach.
Buh-bye. Seeker
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Ooooh, I'm getting an idea here. And it is this - DG and DG really belong together. Stay with me now, I'm not a great storyteller. But say that an outspoken, but sensitive girl meets a realist who is more liable to see people as science projects than human and she uses her sensitivity to make him more human and just a bit less logical. Then he uses his logic and rationale to make her more grounded in her emotions. They were originally trying to use each other as pygmalion projects and instead end up really valuing each other's differences and falling in love.
Okay, pretty hoky, right? But these two are paying a lot of attention to each other on the board. And insulting each other is a staple of Hollywood movies before the two protaganists get together. And they live happily ever after and have kids that are well cared for and loved and that are sheilded against contact with their N grand parents.
Just having a bit of light fun with this idea. I hope it's taken as such. And of course I don't know if the two are involved already. And.....well, the list goes on. It is just a bit of silliness. :D And hardly original.
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Seeker, won't be here long. I am the original guest. And I did out myself as a feeble male who didn't get it.
But since you want a nugget of wisdom (yes, I know that you were being sarcastic) , please note that the INFP type is the type that projects the most. And that's what you are doing (in spades, may I add). And I've already had my share of the INFP emotion 101 class. I am me and have as many and as varied emotions as you. It is simply a matter of display. I'm not you and can never be you. My sister in law is also NT and she is like me. It's not a male/female thing necessarily. And being INFP isn't bad at all. But you can be just as hurtful as others in a different way.
So long. I won't be back this time so you may fight with yourself if you choose to. This is about you. You do know that, right? Be gentle with yourself.
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Original guest and Disco Guy are the same person. Everyone should just ignore the troll.
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Gee, did my dad find his way to the board afer all? What a wet blanket. What was it, were we having too much fun?
I ditto, or is that echo? DG's sentiments.
Isn't Echo the one who falls in love with Narcissus? Who can only echo because she is not heard? Yes ,echo is appropriate. Thank you for furnishing the word. I will echo DG 's words', I too thought it was a set up, and I waited that whole day to see how diplomatically Seeker would handle it. And she came through. Beautifully.
Good going Seeker!
And I found this little tidbit in the archives that so aptly illuminates what is going on here:
Bravo, XXXXXX. You are recognizing Narcisstic behavior, and calling attention to the fact that you do not have to deal with it. Remember, Narcisstic people love to mince words and argue semantics. Empathetic people are able to see the meaning behind the words, even if what is said isn't one hundred percent grammatically correct, or if the perfect word isn't used. Empathetic people want to understand each other, Narcisstic people need to be right. Congratulations, XXXXXX, you responded perfectly.
Another thing, Guest, concerning DG , you remind me of an incident with a friend and his Rottweiler on a camping trip. The dog did not like and feared me for some reason. Whenever my back was turned to it, the dog would sneak up and take the bottoms of my jeans in it's mouth, growling. It was too afraid to bite me, though I could tell it wanted to. Look at you, sheltered in your anonymity. So why are you so afraid of DG?
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I wonder why did DG immediately assume the worst of Guest? Why did DG turn her immediate assumptions into solid negative innuendo by calling Guest's comments 'bait'? I felt that type of thing was quite typical of DG. That is a personal observeration and opinion I hold at the moment about DG's style.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but it appeared to me that Guest started out baiting Seeker. Also, Disco Guy is very obviously baiting Discounted Girl.
I wonder another thing as well. I wonder if any manners will be shown here to Guest. I wonder will DG come back and apologise to Guest? She's made negative comments about Guest. Will she come back now, say something positive, and correct her misunderstanding?
If apologies are due, then Guest and Disco "Stu" Guy should be the ones offering them up.
And I am a male and you females can be needlessly sensitive and bashing sometimes without due cause.
If you don't want to be around us "females", fine.....just don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
Moonflower
PS: I do not read/respond to troll posts directed to me. I will remind everyone else not to waste their time reading and responding to the troll.
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sorry, Guest, I just can't let it go;
But since you want a nugget of wisdom (yes, I know that you were being sarcastic) , please note that the INFP type is the type that projects the most. And that's what you are doing (in spades, may I add).
You are really quite funny. You challenge everyone to entertain a different view saying we can't when in reality you can't. That's projecting in spades, too, I might add.
And I've already had my share of the INFP emotion 101 class.
Really?
I am me and have as many and as varied emotions as you. It is simply a matter of display.
Yes. But you insist on having me recognize your emotions, insist on your rightness. You still will not acknowledge this. You don't acknowledge my points.
I'm not you and can never be you.
Ditto.
My sister in law is also NT and she is like me. It's not a male/female thing necessarily.
I know that. Thanks for insulting my intelligence again. It is YOU that threw the gender thing into the works. You really have a hard time tracking another's line of reasoning. Oh, but I'm projecting again.
And being INFP isn't bad at all.
Thanks.
But you can be just as hurtful as others in a different way.
Agreed. It could have been avoided but you refuse to acknowledge any responsibility on your part. I was willing to go 50/50 with you. But you slapped my handshake away. Remember?
I think you're bugged because I won't bow down to your intellect. Oh well. Here's something you won't find on the Myers Brigg test. It's called Respect. When someone is invalidated (I notice you say you had enough of Emotions 101 but you won't acknowledge the concept of invalidation) it shows disrespect. Hence the entire downward spiral of which YOU were apart. You find being held accountable hurtful. Too bad.
You're not my enemy, you're my FATHER! (Cue for John Williams score here.)
Seeker
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This is for Disco Guy/Guest:
I wonder will DG come back and apologise to Guest?
Why bother? I did, and look what it got me. More invalidation.
Over and out.
Seeker
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God, you people are exhausting. Are you craving drama? I don't get all this invective speech.
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Seeker, yeah I'm talkin' to you. I see that you are a jeckyll and hyde personality. You are all sweet and consilliatory with your cronies but bubble your anger and venom at anyone who doesn't talk exactly like you do. Guess what, sensitive woman. Most people don't talk like they do on this frickin' board. Get a life and stop bleeding your venomous poison. And while you're at it, get some anger management. You sound just like my N sister for god's sake. And do you even know what N is since you think everyone is one? You are a great idiot in my estimation and I am entirely, completely sick of you. You were on another thread a few weeks back posting anonomously and using your little phrase "drawing them in with one hand and slapping them down on another" or whatever it is and abusing someone there until you were called on it. Get a life, woman. You are on this board it seems like 24/7. Geeze, how do find so much time to be here? My god, it seems like being "sensitive" is your card to abuse others. Guess what????????????????We're on to you and people don't want to incur your wrath so they don't call you on it when you post under your own name. This whole thread isn't about you. I think it's Les's thread and you have co-opted it for your own selfish purposes. You really do need to mature and stop and calm your damn self down before you get on here and put your crap out into the universe. I am sensitive too and I am entirely sick of you. You give sensitive people a bad name.
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Guest - I'm with you.
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Guess what????????????????We're on to you and people don't want to incur your wrath so they don't call you on it when you post under your own name. This whole thread isn't about you.
No, we are on to you Guest/Disco Stu/Troll. You are the one who hijacked the thread. :roll:
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Hey Troll
Wah wah wah. thanks for the advice. You really helped me.
Wow, what was I thinking, getting angry? thanks for clearing it all up and demonstrating those anger management techniques, too!
OK, so how many pages are we up to yet? Show your troll friends how many points I helped you get. I like to help.
Oh yeah this is Seeker.
Do you get points if you have the last word? I hope so. Again, I have so much to learn from you.
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Hello all,
At the risk of being caught in the sniper's fire, I think this is something of the essence of what was being said originally:
Oh the comfort, the inexpressible comfort of feeling safe with a person, having neither to weigh thoughts nor measure words, but pouring them all right out, just as they are, chaff and grain together; certain that a faithful hand will take and sift them, keep what is worth keeping, and then with the breath of kindness blow the rest away.
Unfortunately, this intent isn't seen by those who 'stick to the letter'.
The friendship I see when I 'lurk' here sometimes is supportive to most, but people react in different ways and some have more sore places than others.
Use of reasoning and logic can be like rubbing salt into a wound when it would be better left to heal in the air.
Most people have good intent, but feelings can be raw, so it would be kinder to keep silence if there is nothing one can add which helps.
We're all still learning, arguing details can just side-track the journey.
This isn't a debate forum. :)
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This thread is going down a road that I think most of us would rather not go. I won't post to this thread anymore and I hope it dies.
bunny
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Seeker, yeah I'm talkin' to you. I see that you are a jeckyll and hyde personality. You are all sweet and consilliatory with your cronies but bubble your anger and venom at anyone who doesn't talk exactly like you do. Guess what, sensitive woman. Most people don't talk like they do on this frickin' board. Get a life and stop bleeding your venomous poison. And while you're at it, get some anger management. You sound just like my N sister for god's sake. And do you even know what N is since you think everyone is one? You are a great idiot in my estimation and I am entirely, completely sick of you. You were on another thread a few weeks back posting anonomously and using your little phrase "drawing them in with one hand and slapping them down on another" or whatever it is and abusing someone there until you were called on it. Get a life, woman. You are on this board it seems like 24/7. Geeze, how do find so much time to be here? My god, it seems like being "sensitive" is your card to abuse others. Guess what????????????????We're on to you and people don't want to incur your wrath so they don't call you on it when you post under your own name. This whole thread isn't about you. I think it's Les's thread and you have co-opted it for your own selfish purposes. You really do need to mature and stop and calm your damn self down before you get on here and put your crap out into the universe. I am sensitive too and I am entirely sick of you. You give sensitive people a bad name.
CG, is that you??
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Bunny, point taken. Just this:
To talk to the last poster above, I don't think that sounds like CG/Sunny. The phrasing doesn't sound right to me. And I honestly doubt that CG would say that stuff. "We're on to you"? Nahhh she wouldn't say that! I could be wrong, but I'm not sure CG is here atm to say yay or nay so that's my tuppence for you. I value CG, so I'm speaking my opinion.
Hey! It wasn't me either! It was some anon Guest poster venting some stuff, not about seeker, but about their sister. It's somebody with a sister -which CG doesn't have btw. (Edit: I don't think it's Solace either, in case anyone thinks I've hinted that! Phew. What a tangle.)
Course it was probably the same person who wrote the post who asked is it CG to throw us some red herring....oh I feel dumb :roll: Outta here, P
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This thread is going down a road that I think most of us would rather not go. I won't post to this thread anymore and I hope it dies.
bunny
Ditto
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Double ditto
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Kelly here. I go away for two days and the last two pages happened. I cannot believe this!
We are all a bunch of people who have no VOICE!!! So when we express our views (whether they are politically correct, or not) it is an opportunity to have a VOICE - a say - without being vetoed. So when someone vetos you, it is so easy to take it personally.
But being relatively new to this forum, it is upsetting to watch all the infighting between people who do not know each other and feel the need to bicker back and forth.....what's up with that?
I want to be able to vent all over the place here. I like it when people give me advice. I'll have to admit that as I read the last couple of pages of this thread I laughed out loud a few times. It's kind of entertaining in a sick sort of way. I realize that there are people out there with very sensitive personas..........................But you know what? Can we just try to allow people to voice their opinions? Don't know. I'd like to be able to go on and on and on (especially when I'm PMSing) and not fear being stomped on.
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Learning how to use your voice takes a bit of practice and considering that this board is for those of us who have been taught to have no voice it's no wonder that there's going to be some anger here and there. This is a relatively safe place to start finding out about when to shut up and when to stand up for yourself.
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Just a couple of notes from a sporadic lurker and even more infrequent guest poster:
I'm really impressed with the way you've used your voice here, Seeker. You expressed yourself with great astuteness and clarity, and I really respect a number of your posts here.
After having read several threads on this board that seem to have been hijacked and/or having gone sour like this, I do find myself reflexively wishing for more heavy-handed moderating, or--something.
Tangentially: I'm posting as a "guest" myself here, of course; but it did occur to me that the extra level of anonymity provided by not even having to provide a login pseud might encourage this behavior. At any rate, I'm finding the "Yes, Guest, I agree with Guest, too: Guest is behaving very badly to Guest here" exchanges a bit hard to follow...
--belle
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Sometimes what people need is a kick in the butt to get them out of their victimhood. It's okay to come and vent here about your abuser. But honey, the whole world is not abusing you. If they are, then YOU are the common denominator and YOU had better learn how to understand THEM. That OG guy was doing you a kindness but you were too involved in your pity pot to notice. Taking everything personally is a form of selfishness and it keeps you in pain and you are a pain in the butt to others. You could have learned something if you had opened up your mind. There was some empathy in OG's posts even if most of you people could not see it. And respect is a two way street. Seek first to understand before you blow a gasket.
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It should be noted also that sensitive personality types "intuit" more than others. You have that gift. You have intelligence in this area that others don't. Don't expect people to read minds or see between the lines, etc.. This can be a very exhausting exercise for others (use the very empathy that you have naturally - yeah, have some empathy).
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I wonder about the paucity of "dudes" on these threads? Maybe they get crushed by the great sensitivity here? Now, I think it's time to invite CG back here and no I'm not CG and am not the other person who suggested CG posted that prior thread to Seeker. But it's time to get some fresh blood and maybe some "dudes" back to this forum. We ladies might see a new perspective if we let them speak without recrimination. And no, I'm not a troll either. I just think if everyone is in favor of others having a voice, they should learn to live with some dissent and other reasoning. Portia, if you could let CG know there it at least one person (besides you)who would like Sunny back, maybe there's a chance. CG if you're reading this, I would like you back.
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What does Success mean to an INFP?
INFPs are creative, sensitive souls who take their lives very seriously. They seek harmony and authenticity in their relationships with others. They value creativity, spirituality, and honoring the individual self above all else. They are very tuned into inequity and unfairness against people, and get great satisfaction from conquering such injustices. An INFP is a perfectionist who will rarely allow themselves to feel successful, although they will be keenly aware of failures. INFPs also get satisfaction from being in touch with their creativity. For the INFP, personal success depends upon the condition of their closest relationships, the development of their creative abilities, and the continual support of humanity by serving people in need, fighting against injustice, or in some other way working to make the world a better place to be.
Allowing Your INFP Strengths to Flourish
As an INFP, you have gifts that are specific to your personality type that aren't natural strengths for other types. By recognizing your special gifts and encouraging their growth and development, you will more readily see your place in the world, and how you can better use your talents to achieve your dreams.
Nearly all INFPs will recognize the following characteristics in themselves. They should embrace and nourish these strengths:
Highly creative, artistic and spiritual, they can produce wonderful works of art, music and literature. INFPs are natural artists. They will find great satisfaction if they encourage and develop their artistic abilities. That doesn't mean that an INFP has to be a famous writer or painter in order to be content. Simply the act of "creating" will be a fulfilling source of renewal and refreshment to the INFP. An INFP should allow himself or herself some artistic outlet, because it will add enrichment and positive energy to their life.
They're more spiritually aware than most people, and are more in touch with their soul than others. Most INFPs have strong Faith. Those that don't may feel as if they're missing something important. An INFP should nourish their faith.
INFPs are very aware of social injustice, and empathize with the underdog. Their empathy for the underdog and hyper-awareness of social injustice makes them extremely compassionate and nurturing towards disadvantaged members of our society. INFPs will feel most useful and fulfilled when they are fighting to help people who have been misfortunate in our society. They may be teachers, ministers, writers, counsellors or psychologists, but they will most likely all spend extra time trying to help people with special problems. An INFP can find a tremendous amount of satisfaction by enacting some kind of social change that will help the underdog.
They're usually good listeners who genuinely want to hear about someone's problems, and genuinely want to help them. This makes them outstanding counsellors, and good friends. An INFP may find great satisfaction from volunteering as a counselor.
They accept and value people as individuals, and are strongly egalitarian. They believe that an individual has the right to be themself, without having their attitudes and perspectives brought under scrutiny. Accordingly, they have a great deal of tolerance and acceptance dealing with people who might encounter negative judgment from society in general. They can see something positive in everyone. They believe in individuals. If they give themselves the opportunity, an INFP can become a much-needed source of self-esteem and confidence for people who cannot find it on their own. In this way, they can nurture a "sick soul" back to health.
Usually deep and intelligent, they're able to grasp difficult concepts with relative ease. They usually do quite well academically, and will find that educating their minds nourishes their need to think deeply.
INFPs who have developed their Extraverted iNtuition to the extent that they can perceive the world about them objectively and quickly will find that they enjoy these very special gifts:
They will have a great deal of insight into people's characters. They will quickly and thoroughly understand where a person is coming from by assessing their motives and feelings. These well-developed INFP individuals make outstanding psychologists (such as Isabel Briggs Myers herself) and counselors. They might also be great fiction writers, because they're able to develop very complex, real characters.
They will quickly understand different situations, and quickly grasp new concepts. They will find that they're able to do anything that they put their mind to, although they may not find it personally satisfying. Things may seem to come easily to these INFPs. Although they're able to conquer many different kinds of tasks and situations, these INFPs will be happiest doing something that seems truly important to them. Although they may find that they can achieve the "mainstream" type of success with relative ease, they are not likely to find happiness along that path, unless they are living their lives with authenticity and depth.
The INFP who augments their strong, internal value system (Introverted Feeling) with a well-developed intuitive way of perceiving the world (Extraverted iNtuition) can be a powerful force for social change. Their intense values and strong empathy for the underprivileged, combined with a reliable and deeply insightful understanding of the world that we live in, creates an individual with the power to make a difference (such as Mother Teresa - an INFP).
Potential Problem Areas
With any gift of strength, there is an associated weakness. Without "bad", there would be no "good". Without "difficult", there would be no "easy". We value our strengths, but we often curse and ignore our weaknesses. To grow as a person and get what we want out of life, we must not only capitalize upon our strengths, but also face our weaknesses and deal with them. That means taking a hard look at our personality type's potential problem areas.
INFPs are rare, intelligent, creative beings with many special gifts. I would like for the INFP to keep in mind some of the many positive things associated with being an INFP as they read some of this more negative material. Also remember that the weaknesses associated with being an INFP are natural to your type. Although it may be depressing to read about your type's weaknesses, please remember that we offer this information to enact positive change. We want people to grow into their own potential, and to live happy and successful lives.
Most of the weaker characteristics that are found in INFPs are due to their dominant Feeling function overshadowing the rest of their personality. When the dominant function of Introverted Feeling overshadows everything else, the INFP can't use Extraverted iNtuition to take in information in a truly objective fashion. In such cases, an INFP may show some or all of the following weaknesses in varying degrees:
May be extremely sensitive to any kind of criticism
May perceive criticism where none was intended
May have skewed or unrealistic ideas about reality
May be unable to acknowledge or hear anything that goes against their personal ideas and opinions
May blame their problems on other people, seeing themselves as victims who are treated unfairly
May have great anger, and show this anger with rash outpourings of bad temper
May be unaware of appropriate social behavior
May be oblivious to their personal appearance, or to appropriate dress
May come across as eccentric, or perhaps even generally strange to others, without being aware of it
May be unable to see or understand anyone else's point of view
May value their own opinions and feelings far above others
May be unaware of how their behavior affects others
May be oblivious to other people's need
May feel overwhelmed with tension and stress when someone expresses disagreement with the INFP, or disapproval of the INFP
May develop strong judgments that are difficult to unseed against people who they perceive have been oppressive or suppressive to them
Under great stress, may obsess about details that are unimportant to the big picture of things
Under stress, may obsessively brood over a problem repeatedly
May have unreasonable expectations of others
May have difficulty maintaining close relationships, due to unreasonable expectations
Explanation of Problems
Nearly all of the problematic characteristics described above can be attributed in various degrees to the common INFP problem of only taking in data that justifies their personal opinions. INFPs are usually very intense and sensitive people, and feel seriously threatened by criticism. They are likely to treat any point of view other than their own as criticism of their own perspective. If the INFP does not learn how to deal with this perceived criticism, the INFP will begin to shut out the incoming information that causes them pain. This is a natural survivalistic technique for the INFP personality. The main driver to the INFP personality is Introverted Feeling, whose purpose is to maintain and honor an intensely personal system of values and morals. If an INFP's personal value system is threatened by external influences, the INFP shuts out the threatening data in order to preserve and honor their value system. This is totally natural, and works well to protect the individual psyche from getting hurt. However, the INFP who exercises this type of self-protection regularly will become more and more unaware of other people's perspectives, and thus more and more isolated from a real understanding of the world that they live in. They will always find justification for their own inappropriate behaviors, and will always find fault with the external world for problems that they have in their lives. It will be difficult for them to maintain close personal relationships because they will have unreasonable expectations, and will be unable to accept blame.
Its not an uncommon tendency for the INFP to look to the external world primarily for information that will support their ideas and values. However, if this tendency is given free reign, the resulting INFP personality is too self-centered to be happy or successful. Since the INFP's dominant function to their personality is Introverted Feeling, they must balance this with an auxiliary Extraverted iNtuitive function. The INFP takes in information via Extraverted iNtuition. This is also the INFP's primary way of dealing with the external world. If the INFP uses Extraverted iNtuition only to serve the purposes of Introverted Feeling, then the INFP is not using Extraversion effectively at all. As a result, the INFP does not take in enough information about the external world to have a good sense of what's going on. They see nothing but their own perspective, and deal with the world only so far as they need to in order to support their perspective. These individuals usually come across as selfish and unrealistic. Depending on how serious the problem is, they may appear to be anything from "a bit eccentric" to "way out there". Many times other people are unable to understand or relate to these people.
Solutions
To grow as an individual, the INFP needs to focus on opening their perspective to include a more accurate picture of what is really going on in the world. In order to be in a position in which the INFP is able to perceive and consider data that is foreign to their internal value system, the INFP needs to know that its value system is not threatened by the new information. The INFP must consciously tell himself/herself that an opinion that does not concede with their own is not an indictment of their entire character.
The INFP who is concerned with personal growth will pay close attention to their motivation for taking in information. Do they take in information to better understand a situation or concept? Or, do they take in information to support a personal idea or cause? At the moment when something is perceived, is the INFP concerned with twisting that perception to fit in with their personal values? Or is she/he concerned with absorbing the information objectively? To achieve a better understanding of the external world, the INFP should try to perceive information objectively, before fitting it into their value system. They should consciously be aware of their tendency to discard anything that doesn't agree with their values, and work towards lessening this tendency. They should try to see situations from other people's perspectives, without making personal judgments about the situations or the other people's perspectives. In general, they should work on exercising their iNtuition in a truly Extraverted sense. In other words, they should use iNtuition to take in information about the world around them for the sake of understanding the world, rather than take in information to support their own conclusions. The INFP who successfully perceives things objectively may be quite a powerful force for positive change.
Living Happily in our World as an INFP
Some INFPs have difficulty fitting into our society. Their problems are often a result of an unawareness of appropriate social behavior, an unawareness of how they come across to others, or unrealistic expectations of others. Any one of these three issues stem from using Extraverted iNtuition in a diminished manner. An INFP who takes in information for the sake of understanding the world around them, rather than one who takes in information only to support their own ideas, will have a clearer, more objective understanding of how society values social behaviors and attitudes. He or she will also be more aware of how they are perceived by others, and will have more realistic expectations for others' behavior within a relationship. Such well-adjusted INFPs will fit happily into our society.
Unless you really understand Psychological Type and the nuances of the various personality functions, it's a difficult task to suddenly start to use iNtuition in an Extraverted direction. It's difficult to even understand what that means, much less to incorporate that directive into your life. With that in mind, I am providing some specific suggestions that may help you to begin exercising your Extraverted iNtuition more fully:
Take care to notice what people look like in different social situations. Look at their hair, their skin, their makeup (or lack thereof), their clothes, the condition of their clothes, their shoes, their facial expressions. Don't compare others to your own appearance, or pass judgment on their appearance, simply take in the information.
Think of a situation in your life in which you weren't sure how to behave. Now try to understand how one or two other people would see the situation. Don't compare their behavior to your own, i.e. "she would know better than me what to do", or "why is it so easy for her, but so hard for me". Rather, try to understand how they would see the situation. Would it be seen as a problem, or as an opportunity? Would it be taken seriously or lightly? Try to determine their point of view without passing judgment or comparing it to your own.
When having a conversation with a friend or relative, dedicate at least half of your time to talking about the other person. Concentrate on really understanding where that person is coming from with their concerns. Ask questions.
Think of the people who are closest to you. As you think of each person, tell yourself "this person has their own life going on, and they are more concerned with their own life than they are with mine." Remember that this doesn't mean that they don't care about you. It's the natural order of things. Try to visualize what that person is doing right now. What things are they encountering, what thoughts are they having? Don't pass judgment, or compare their situation to your own.
Try to identify the personality type of everyone that you come into contact with for any length of time.
Ten Rules to Live By to Achieve INFP Success
Feed Your Strengths! Encourage your natural artistic abilities and creativity. Nourish your spirituality. Give yourself opportunities to help the needy or underprivileged.
Face Your Weaknesses! Realize and accept that some traits are strengths and some are weaknesses. Facing and dealing with your weaknesses doesn't mean that you have to change who you are, it means that you want to be the best You possible. By facing your weaknesses, you are honoring your true self, rather than attacking yourself.
Express Your Feelings. Don't let unexpressed emotions build up inside of you. If you have strong feelings, sort them out and express them, Don't let them build up inside you to the point where they become unmanageable!
Listen to Everything. Try not to dismiss anything immediately. Let everything soak in for awhile, then apply judgment.
Smile at Criticism. Remember that people will not always agree with you or understand you, even if they value you greatly. Try to see disagreement and criticism as an opportunity for growth. In fact, that is exactly what it is.
Be Aware of Others. Remember that there are 15 other personality types out there who see things differently than you see them. Try to identify other people's types. Try to understand their perspectives.
Be Accountable for Yourself. Remember that YOU have more control over your life than any other person has.
Be Gentle in Your Expectations. You will always be disappointed with others if you expect too much of them. Being disappointed with another person is the best way to drive them away. Treat others with the same gentleness that you would like to be treated with.
Assume the Best. Don't distress yourself by assuming the worst. Remember that a positive attitude often creates positive situations.
When in Doubt, Ask Questions! Don't assume that the lack of feedback is the same thing as negative feedback. If you need feedback and don't have any, ask for it.
Contact us
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What's an INPF? and why do I need to study up on it???
I think I miss the point, if there is one. Oh well.
:roll:
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And how does this relate to the topic of "Perfection"? :?
Why not start a new thread with a title to help guide others to the information you have provided in such detail, where it would be more accessible to everyone, and anyone searching for help?
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Personally, I believe that the personality type information that was posted is most applicable to this thread, and also this forum in general. I also agree with you that it would make an interesting new thread on it's own.
There is plenty of wholesome stuff in that information on INF types for people here to consider. Both in and out of this thread.
The INF weaknesses particularly could be addressed. Especially and considering as how this board appears to be dominated by the INF types, and therefore also dominated by the INF weaknesses. I've often noticed that some of the more vocal INF members of one particular sub-group often mistake any TJ's who dare venture here as Narcissists. Differences are 'intuited' by them as a threat.
It appears to be a recurring misunderstanding and problem, due to ignorance of their own weaknesses, that causes the INF's in particular to band together and then become bullies until they've hounded the different types to become 'silent' or 'out'. That's how it apears to me anyway.
My thought is that it was a helpful post by the guest who posted that information on INFP. It helped me to understand more of the 'why' when things around here seem to repeatedly go same ways they do. Always following the same pattern with what mostly seems to be the same players too.
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Most of the weaker characteristics that are found in INFPs are due to their dominant Feeling function overshadowing the rest of their personality. When the dominant function of Introverted Feeling overshadows everything else, the INFP can't use Extraverted iNtuition to take in information in a truly objective fashion. In such cases, an INFP may show some or all of the following weaknesses in varying degrees:
May be extremely sensitive to any kind of criticism
May perceive criticism where none was intended
May have skewed or unrealistic ideas about reality
May be unable to acknowledge or hear anything that goes against their personal ideas and opinions
May blame their problems on other people, seeing themselves as victims who are treated unfairly
May have great anger, and show this anger with rash outpourings of bad temper
May be unaware of appropriate social behavior
May be oblivious to their personal appearance, or to appropriate dress
May come across as eccentric, or perhaps even generally strange to others, without being aware of it
May be unable to see or understand anyone else's point of view
May value their own opinions and feelings far above others
May be unaware of how their behavior affects others
May be oblivious to other people's need
May feel overwhelmed with tension and stress when someone expresses disagreement with the INFP, or disapproval of the INFP
May develop strong judgments that are difficult to unseed against people who they perceive have been oppressive or suppressive to them
Under great stress, may obsess about details that are unimportant to the big picture of things
Under stress, may obsessively brood over a problem repeatedly
May have unreasonable expectations of others
May have difficulty maintaining close relationships, due to unreasonable expectations
Explanation of Problems
Nearly all of the problematic characteristics described above can be attributed in various degrees to the common INFP problem of only taking in data that justifies their personal opinions. INFPs are usually very intense and sensitive people, and feel seriously threatened by criticism. They are likely to treat any point of view other than their own as criticism of their own perspective. If the INFP does not learn how to deal with this perceived criticism, the INFP will begin to shut out the incoming information that causes them pain. This is a natural survivalistic technique for the INFP personality. The main driver to the INFP personality is Introverted Feeling, whose purpose is to maintain and honor an intensely personal system of values and morals. If an INFP's personal value system is threatened by external influences, the INFP shuts out the threatening data in order to preserve and honor their value system. This is totally natural, and works well to protect the individual psyche from getting hurt. However, the INFP who exercises this type of self-protection regularly will become more and more unaware of other people's perspectives, and thus more and more isolated from a real understanding of the world that they live in.
They will always find justification for their own inappropriate behaviors, and will always find fault with the external world for problems that they have in their lives.
It will be difficult for them to maintain close personal relationships because they will have unreasonable expectations, and will be unable to accept blame.
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I will have to use the female perogative and change my mind. I do have something more to add to this thread.
Since we are throwing Myers-Briggs /Keirsey stones, here are abbreviated Portraits on the four TJ temperments. Notice, I included links.
http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ_per.html
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Potential Problem Areas
May be unaware (and sometimes uncaring) of how they come across to others
May quickly dismiss input from others without really considering it
May apply their judgment more often towards others, rather than towards themselves
With their ability to see an issue from many sides, they may always find others at fault for problems in their own lives
May look at external ideas and people with the primary purpose of finding fault
May take pride in their ability to be critical and find fault in people and things
May have unrealistic and/or unreasonable expectations of others
May be intolerant of weaknesses in others
May believe that they're always right
May be cuttingly derisive and sarcastic towards others
May have an intense and quick temper
May hold grudges, and have difficulty forgiving people
May be wishy-washy and unsure how to act in situations that require quick decision making
May have difficulty communicating their thoughts and feelings to others
May see so many tangents everywhere that they can't stay focused on the bottom line or the big picture
Explanation of Problems
The real problems occur when an INTJ personality has become so imbalanced that its owner is extremely self-important and rarely consider anyone else's opinions or ideas.
Solutions
To grow as an individual, the INTJ needs to focus on applying their judgment to things only after they have gone through their intuition. In other words, the INTJ needs to consciously try not to use their judgment to dismiss ideas prematurely. Rather, they should use their judgment against their own ideas. One cannot effectively judge something that they don't understand. The INTJ needs to take things entirely into their intuition in order to understand them. It may be neccesary to give your intuition enough time to work through the new information so that it can rebuild its global framework of understanding. INTJs need to focus on using their judgment not to dismiss ideas, but rather to support their intuitive framework.
An INTJ who is concerned with personal growth will pay close attention to the subject of their judgments, and their motivation for making judgments. Are they judging something external to themself, or are they judging something that they have sifted through their intuition? Is the motivation for judging something to be able to understand its usefulness in the world, or to dismiss it? Too often, an INTJ will judge something without properly understanding it, and with the intention of dismissing it. Seek first to understand, then to judge.
Living Happily in our World as an INTJ
Some INTJs have difficulty fitting into our society. Their problems are generally associated with not knowing (or caring) how they come across to others, with having unreasonable expectations for others' behaviors, and with not putting forth effort to meet others' emotional needs. These issues stem primarily from the common INTJ habit of using Extraverted Thinking to find fault externally, rather than internally, and therefore diminish the importance of the external world, and increase the importance of the INTJ's own internal world. INTJs who recognize that their knowledge and understanding (and therefore general happiness and feeling of success) can be enriched by the synergy of other people's knowledge and understanding will find that they can be committed to their rich internal worlds and still have satisfying relationships with others. In order to accomplish this, the INTJ needs to recognize the importance of extraversion, and develop their highest extraverted function, Extraverted Thinking.
An INTJ who uses Extraverted Thinking to find fault externally rather than internally may become so strongly opinionated that they form rigid and unreasonable expectations for others. Their hyper-vigilant judgments about the rationality and competence of others may be a very effective way of keeping themselves at an emotional distance from others. This will preserve the sanctity of the INTJ's inner world of ideas, but will reduce a lot of valuable input, arrest the development of their social character, and stagnate the development of the INTJ's rich structural framework of understanding. In extreme cases, the INTJ may find himself or herself quite along and lonely.
More commonly, an INTJ's interpersonal problems will occur when they express their displeasure to those close to them in very biting and hurtful terms. Everyone needs emotional distance at one time or another, and the INTJ wants more than most types. Perhaps this is why INTJs are famous for their biting sarcasm. An INTJ's internal world is extremely important to them. They may be protecting their internal world by using sarcasm to keep others at an emotional distance, or they may be sarcastic with others because they believe that they have the more evolved and logical understanding of the issue at hand, and seek to cut off the spurious input that they're receiving. This is an important distinction to recognize. An INTJ who is seeking an emotional respite can find ways to be alone that don't require injuring feelings and damaging relationships. When distance is required, the INTJ should just "leave". If an explanation is necessary, an INTJ should use their Extraverted Thinking to explain their need rationally and objectively, rather than using Extraverted Thinking to insult the other person, and therefore prod them into leaving.
Specific suggestions:
Take care to listen to someone's idea entirely before you pass judgment on it. Ask questions if necessary. Do whatever it takes to make sure that you understand the idea. Try not to begin judging anything about the idea until you have understood it entirely.
Before you begin talking to another person, pause for a moment and look at that person. Take in that person's attitude and feelings at that moment. Be aware of the person with whom you're speaking.
If you become upset, walk away immediately. DO NOT express anger. When you get angry, you lose. After you have calmed down, apologize for leaving and continue with what you were doing.
Try to identify the personality type of everyone that you encounter frequently in your life. Remember that people with the Sensing preference need to be communicated with in a direct, concise manner. Speak plainly and simply with Sensors, giving "yes" or "no" answers.
Try to be on good terms with all people, even those that you consider beneath you. Try to understand that everybody has something to offer.
When you make judgments or decisions, try to be aware of your motivation for making the judgment. Are you more interested in finding fault externally, or in improving your own understanding? Seek first to understand, and then to judge.
Ten Rules to Live By to Achieve INTJ Success
Be Humble. Judge yourself at least as harshly as you judge others.
Copyright 1998-2004 BSM Consulting
http://www.personalitypage.com/ISTJ_per.html
ISTJ Personal Growth
Potential Problem Areas
With any gift of strength, there is an associated weakness. Without "bad", there would be no "good". Without "difficult", there would be no "easy". We value our strengths, but we often curse and ignore our weaknesses. To grow as a person and get what we want out of life, we must not only capitalize upon our strengths, but also face our weaknesses and deal with them. That means taking a hard look at our personality type's potential problem areas.
Most of the weaker characteristics that are found in ISTJs are due to their dominant Introverted Sensing function controlling the personality to the point that all other functions are being used to defend Sensing demands, rather than for their more balanced purposes. In such cases, an ISTJ may show some or all of the following weaknesses in varying degrees:
Excessive love of food and drink
Lack of interest in other people, or in relating to them
Occasional inappropriate emotional displays
General selfish "look after oneself" tendencies
Uses judgement to dismiss other's opinions and perspectives, before really understanding them
May judge others rather than themselves
May look at external ideas and people with the primary purpose of finding fault
May become slave to their routine and "by the book" ways of doing things, to the point that any deviation is completely unacceptable
May have difficulty communicating their thoughts and feelings to anyone
Explanation of Problems
Solutions
To grow as an individual, the ISTJ needs to focus on applying their judgement against information that they have gathered, rather than against single facts or ideas coming from others. Before judging, put all new data into the context of existing facts. Working with all of the facts at your disposal will greatly improve your ability to judge effectively, and will reduce the likelihood that you will become offensively reactionary and isolationist.
Living Happily in our World as an ISTJ
More commonly, the ISTJ will run into trouble when they try to order and structure the outer world, rather than their inner world. Trying to structure people into a predefined, acceptable system is problematic. The personality types who value the unique individual will be offended by the apparent lack of respect for their person, and people with personality types who follow social values will want to be honoring their own system, rather then being forced to follow yours. Many people experience being controlled or manipulated as a form of suppression, and resist it. Eventually, they may harbor serious resentment against the suppressor.
Specific suggestions:
Take care to listen to someone's idea entirely before you pass judgment on it. Ask questions if necessary. Do whatever it takes to make sure that you understand the idea. Try not to begin judging anything until you understand the details.
Try to identify the personality type of everyone you encounter frequently in your life. Remember that Intuitives often have a wandering style of expression. Try to exhibit tolerance for this.
Before you being talking to another person, pause for a moment and look at that person. Take in that person's attitude and feelings at that moment. Be aware of the person with whom you are speaking.
Ten Rules to Live By to Achieve ISTJ Success
Take in Everything. Don't dismiss ideas prematurely because you don't respect the person generating the ideas, or because you think you already know it all. After all, everybody has something to offer, and nobody knows everything. As Steven Covey says, "Seek first to understand, and then to be understood."
Quench Your Desire to Control Others. Remember that most people do not want to be controlled. Again, turn your controlling tendencies inwardly rather than outwardly. You can only really control yourself.
Be Aware of Others. Take time to notice where others are coming from. What is their personality type? How are they currently feeling?
Be Accountable for Yourself. Don't blame the problems in your life on other people. Look inwardly for solutions.
Be Gentle in Your Expectations, and judge yourself at least as harshly as you judge others.
Copyright 1998-2004 BSM Consulting
http://www.personalitypage.com/ESTJ_per.html
ESTJ Personal Growth
. In such cases, an ESTJ may show some or all of the following weaknesses in varying degrees:
May be unaware or uncaring of how they come across to others.
May deliberately bully people into behaving a certain way (with the justification that they're enforcing a principle.)
May quickly dismiss input from others without really considering it.
May have difficulty communicating their thoughts and feelings to others.
Maybe have difficulty understanding the importance of considering people's feelings, and trying to meet their emotional needs.
May hold grudges, and have difficulty forgiving people.
May have an intense and quick temper.
May be highly controlling towards others.
May be unable to place value on individual life.
May be unable to see the long-term impact of their behavior.
Explanation of Problems
Nearly all of the problematic characteristics described above can be attributed to the common problem of Extraverted Thinking overtaking the ESTJ personality to the point that all other personality functions exist only to serve Thinking's needs. A healthy and successful personality needs to have a good balance between its dominant and auxiliary functions. For an ESTJ, dominant Extraverted Thinking needs to be well-supported by the auxiliary Introverted Sensing function. If Introverted Sensing exists only to support the agenda of Extraverted Thinking, then neither function is living up to its potential, and the subject ESTJ is not reaching their potential in their job or their personal relationships.
In the case where auxilary Sensing is underused, the ESTJ will live entirely within the boundaries of their existing principles. They will hold up their own set of principles as an inalienable representation of the Right Thing To Do, and apply everything they encounter in life to this principle system. If they perceive behavior that does not fit into their set of principles, they will ruthlessly judge it and shut down any alternative view of the violation. In being so tied to their Extraverted Thinking process, they lose the ability to truly consider incoming information, and therefore lose the ability to synergize with other people and solve problems in an effective way. Perhaps most importantly, the ESTJ loses the ability to connect with their own Self. They become out of touch with their own personal needs, and dissociated from their core Self. The net effect of these happenings is an ESTJ leader who expects absolute adherence to his or her demands; who lacks the ability to see long-range implications associated with these demands; who is unwilling to consider alternate solutions or plans; and who is dissociated from any personal priorities or value system. Such a leader is unlikely to be effective and successful in their job or personal life, although are likely unaware of the reasons for their problems.
Solutions
An ESTJ who is interested in coming into his or her own potential should consciously try to suspend judgement until all of the facts are known. An effective ESTJ is not afraid to redefine principles when information cannot be understood or dealt with effectively within their known systems. Practicing this sort of behavior will help auxilary Introverted Sensation to flourish, and thereby allow the entire personality to become a more effective and positive force.
Living Happily in our World as an ESTJ
Some ESTJs have difficulty fitting into our society. Their problems are often associated with being controlling of others, having unreasonable expectations for others' behaviors, failing to consider others' needs and ideas, and generally coming across too strongly. These issues stem primarily from the common ESTJ habit of using Extraverted Thinking in a mode in which it quickly and automatically applies existing principles against the external world, rather than taking the time to weigh their inner data against their principles for behavior. ESTJs need to be able to use their rich store of internal data to feed their principles. Insisting on adherence to steadfast principles while ignoring factual information is a recipe for trouble, such as we have seen with various dictatorships throughout history. In order to flourish in a healthy way, the ESTJ has to recognize the importance of their inner data stores, and needs to use all available data to form good principles. In order to accomplish this, the ESTJ needs to recognize the importance of Introversion, and develop the use of their highest introverted function, Introverted Sensing.
Specific suggestions:
Try to gather all available facts before you pass judgement. Ask questions if necessary. Make sure that you are understanding the idea that is being communicated. After you understand the idea, figure out how it fits into your principle system.
Be willing to create new principles and change existing principles based on new facts.
If you become angry, walk away. When you allow anger to control your actions, you lose, and quite possibly somebody else loses too. After you have dealt with your anger and calmed down, continue with what you were doing.
Try to identify the personality type of everyone that you encounter frequently in your life. Remember that Intuitives sometimes speak in an indirect, wandering way. Try to have patience with this, and remember that everyone has something to offer.
Remember that you have the most to learn from those people who are very different from you. They have something to offer you, no matter how difficult it may be for you to see it at first.
Ten Rules to Live By to Achieve ESTJ Success
Face Your Weaknesses! See your weaknesses for what they are, and seek to overcome them. Especially, resist the tendency to judge too quickly, and remember the importance of considering other people's feelings.
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Be Humble. Judge yourself at least as harshly as you judge others.
Resist the Urge to Control Others. You can't force others to adhere to your ways of thinking. You may think that you know what's best for others, but you really only know how they can best act according to your ideas of what is right. Just as you are entitled to live as you see fit, so are they. Instead of judging and controlling others, focus on using your judgement to create better impartial principles.
Copyright 1998-2004 BSM Consulting
http://www.personalitypage.com/ENTJ.html
Portrait of an ENTJ - Extraverted iNtuitive Thinking Judging
(Extraverted Thinking with Introverted Intuition)
The Executive
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There is not much room for error in the world of the ENTJ. They dislike to see mistakes repeated, and have no patience with inefficiency. They may become quite harsh when their patience is tried in these respects, because they are not naturally tuned in to people's feelings, and more than likely don't believe that they should tailor their judgments in consideration for people's feelings. ENTJs, like many types, have difficulty seeing things from outside their own perspective. Unlike other types, ENTJs naturally have little patience with people who do not see things the same way as the ENTJ. The ENTJ needs to consciously work on recognizing the value of other people's opinions, as well as the value of being sensitive towards people's feelings. In the absence of this awareness, the ENTJ will be a forceful, intimidating and overbearing individual. This may be a real problem for the ENTJ, who may be deprived of important information and collaboration from others. In their personal world, it can make some ENTJs overbearing as spouses or parents.
ENTJs are very forceful, decisive individuals. They make decisions quickly, and are quick to verbalize their opinions and decisions to the rest of the world. The ENTJ who has not developed their Intuition will make decisions too hastily, without understanding all of the issues and possible solutions. On the other hand, an ENTJ who has not developed their Thinking side will have difficulty applying logic to their insights, and will often make poor decisions. In that case, they may have brilliant ideas and insight into situations, but they may have little skill at determining how to act upon their understanding, or their actions may be inconsistent. An ENTJ who has developed in a generally less than ideal way may become dictatorial and abrasive - intrusively giving orders and direction without a sound reason for doing so, and without consideration for the people involved.
ENTJs want their home to be beautiful, well-furnished, and efficiently run. They're likely to place much emphasis on their children being well-educated and structured, to desire a congenial and devoted relationship with their spouse. At home, the ENTJ needs to be in charge as much as he or she does in their career. The ENTJ is likely best paired with someone who has a strong self-image, who is also a Thinking type. Because the ENTJ is primarily focused on their careers, some ENTJs have a problem with being constantly absent from home, physically or mentally.
The ENTJ has many gifts which make it possible for them to have a great deal of personal power, if they don't forget to remain balanced in their lives. The are assertive, innovative, long-range thinkers with an excellent ability to translate theories and possibilities into solid plans of action. They are usually tremendously forceful personalities, and have the tools to accomplish whatever goals they set out for.
Jungian functional preference ordering:
Dominant: Extraverted Thinking
Auxiliary: Introverted Intuition
Tertiary: Extraverted Sensing
Inferior: Introverted Feeling
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Sometimes what people need is a kick in the butt to get them out of their victimhood.
I’m a big believer in this. It works. A bit of humility, self-awareness and feeling like a prune for a while is good stuff. Crying in horror at myself for being so dumb, uncaring and unaware of other people. Done all that. And I’m an INF (1% J too). So I can relate to a lot of the INF stuff above. But so what? We’re all human, even Ns, and we all have good and bad in us. Why the hell do we (the human race) have to keep turning everything into an emotional argument? It makes me not want to live with any other people whatsoever, desert island here I come. What’s the point? We’re never going to grow up as a species. We’ll just carry on having enemies coz it’s so much easier than thinking about why we differ and accepting that we do differ and always will. I’m going to go back to Les:
I have read here and elsewhere that N's underneath their carefully arranged exteriors suffer from low self- esteem. (did I get that right, it still seems hard to grasp) I can appreciate that many N's or perhaps all N's will never know all the things they might have been because they are so busy keeping up appearances, but I wonder if there aren't some who through and through just think they are the cat's meow, right down to the last whisker. Any thoughts on the depths of their feelings of perfection?
So yeah Les, hi there, how are you today? Ns suffer from crippling, deep feelings of inferiority and shame (self-esteem isn’t all that descriptive really is it? What does it mean anyhoos?). It’s a big pit of shame at the core of their being. Imagine. Terrible. But they don’t feel it like non-Ns would. They constantly lie to themselves. To admit that they are aware of that shame, would be to die, intellectually (and therefore physically). Because for them, there’s no way away from the shame, there’s no cure, nothing can ever make them accept themselves and change how they see their place in the world.
They don’t see themselves as perfect – they have to constantly pretend, lie to themselves, that they are perfect - this is an important difference! This is not a choice, unless we see it as a choice between life and death. And of course this is NPD, not just a sprinkling of a few N traits. And this is my opinion, garnered from books, people here etc. My interpretation. Which will be different to every other person’s interpretation – so we can probably disagree about it and then have a great big punch-up about it. Or play 'an eye for an eye'. Yeah. Whoooof! :x Thanks for letting me vent. P (a regular human who picks her nose and goes to the toilet just like everyone else)
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Well, thanks Portia for the clarification on N's and their sense of perfection. I am only now beginning to do the required reading and so beginning to appreciate the idea of shame. "Why is it always about you" - has been particularly helpful.
On a different note - re: kicking butt: How can any of us know what someone needs to help them move through the bewildering, distorting trauma of living with N's? This is the first place I have been able to think outloud and make sense of 55 years of life. At what point should anyone presume that it is time to give a board member or anyone else a swift kick because they happen to think that person is stuck in "victimhood?" What gives anyone the right to kick butt? A therapist or good friend may have some rights in this area. For people who are just waking up to what truly has been going on in their lives, the ability to get some of it out without watching their butts all the time is vitally important imo.
So my questions remain - what gives anyone the right to "kick butt." And what truly is the motivation? Who should presume to know enough about a person to kick butt?
Les -
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To LES,
Seeker's been a member since Sept 2003 Les, and I've seen her involved in plenty of butt kicking and drama creation here. Her and few other regulars like Phoenix and DG particulary. They hunt in a pack. Seeker gets her butt kicked here mainly because she;'s kicked butt plenny and continuies to, and doesn't ever learn that is why she has made quite a few enemies over the past 15 months.
No harm done though in the end. It's all growth and learning. I always get the impression she likes a fight also. She plays the kicking game well too, and knows the game extremely well.
Sometimes :roll: I think she might even have written the handbook, the way she kicks and then plays the victim when the kicked kick back. She kicks pretty damn hard, so my 2 cents worth says she knew exactly what she was getting into.
Personally, I've been butt kicked by her at least 100 times myself since I've been here and I've only kicked hers about 10 times. I don't bother anymore because she bores me and is predictable and it's generally a waste of time, butt I thought seeing as you asked I'd like to share my persepctive with you and as a bonus have my 11th free kick. Hence, I decided to post this in response to your question. :roll:
Waiting now for her or one of pals to come kick me and try to even the score. :wink:
People here have short memories Les. They abuse other posters and attack simple enquiry and then move along and forget about what they've done to someone. The abused doesn't forget who abused them though, especially when they read their abuser posting here nicely to others in their pack afterwards. I sure know I don't.
It's not live and let live around here.
From a newie's point of view it's often be kicked and eventually learn to kick back yourself. I've seent his happen so many times it's simply patheticly obvious.
I saw happen again, to OG here. OG was contributing intelligently and doing okay in his or her style till DG and Seeker and went rabid and turned the thread rancid.
OG probably won't forget Seeker or DG in a hurry either, I don't think. Just like I haven't.
There are different ways to be. Some people choose to adopt a permanent abusive and intimidating style and find they are always in conflict and then can't understand why? I can't understand why they can't understand why.
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I don't know if I'm the only one who feels this way, but I find that life with an N is exhausting. This Board has been my lifesaver, a port in a storm if you will.
But when I read posts where people are locking horns over semantics and minutiae, I become exhausted and log out. It is just like being in the home where I was raised, and I want to run away, as fast as my legs can carry me....
and then I think - what a waste of energy to criticize one another here. Many of us have found this Board to be a healing place in our journey to becoming all that we can and should be. There are good days and there are bad days in our lives while trying to survive N's and the perfection that they demand. And there are days when we can play the role of being Perfect, and there are days when we are wounded and cannot be Perfect. I was hoping that this would be a place of others who felt the same way. I know that I have become stronger by the voices that have been supportive and have offered guidance by sharing their experiences, and I intend to stay here for the long haul, to help when I can, and to ask for direction and strength to help through the tough times. I am so grateful for the kind voices that I have found here. There is a tremendous amount of compassion and wisdom amongst those who are finding their voices. What stories we all have to tell, and to share. And think of the strength in our numbers, as we are able to finally tell The Truth, and to be believed and understood. So many times have I read posts here, and have found myself nodding my head, while my eyes puddle with understanding.
I am still grateful to be here. I only hope that others will find comfort and strength here, as well. When there is discord, I fear it will do more harm than good, and what, then is the point of it all? My hope is that we will pull together. I was honoured to join this group, and give my voice a bit of a name. Maybe Guest should consider doing the same - become one of our group where we can know you by your chosen name. It might be a step towards a greater healing and a greater strength.
Just my thoughts, all well-intentioned, honestly.
And, before you attack, don't worry : I know I am not "Perfect".
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No harm done? I guess for the strong ones who relish a fight this might be true. What about the truly voiceless who are just finding their voices here? I wish there was a boxing ring for the folks who are strong enough now to enjoy a good verbal fight. Maybe Ramble was a good outlet - not sure, didn't read it too much, so I'm not JUDGING it.
For me ( and I emphasize FOR ME) I saw the board as a safe place -a little kindness for once. So all this vendictive stuff astounds me. Maybe people could take it outside so to speak?
Is this part of finding our voice - getting combative? I'm certainly not as fearful as I used to be. Maybe I'll be parsing every word and holding people to account for every slip myself. Hmmm, let me see, you capitalized my name guest - just what did you mean by that? (OK I AM JUST KIDDING)
Do we have learn how to modulate and moderate our new found voices? Maybe we need to scream. How about a Scream room, enter at own risk. Maybe I'll start a thread - wanna fight!!!
One more observation - it's so easy to take offense when all we have to go on are words and we are naturally braced for the worst because of our histories.
Les
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To Les,
I capped your name hoping you would see it. Yes, good points you made. I have actually been kicked for something very similar. Makes one feel nervous to speak or use name when that happens enough times.
To Only Me,
As for the me using a name thing, that's not the real issue here IMHO. But for the sake of this discussion, I'm Brad.
4 against isn't a fair fight by anyone's standard is it OM?
I noticed OG spoke up and before the board knew it OG was up against how many? 3, 4, 5?
It's an interesting example of typical hunt, to re-read. I don't blame anyone for going guest anymore.
That's a dog's act though, 4 against 1. The others should stayed out of it, and left it between OG and Seeker to sort out. There was nothing to sort out till DG said her bit. She was wrong.
Has anyone else ever noticed how Phoenix and DG love a fight. They're always jumping in with abuse when they should butt out.
I've noticed many of the peacemakers and the more intellectual and mature posters here usually butt out and move along, not wanting to stir things up.
Gardener butted in and was a true peacemaker in my opinion. And it brought Seeker around to common-sense didn't it?
But not DG. She still wanted to fight. And IMHO she was the one who started the fight in the first place.
4 against 1 - unfair - but common tactics around here. If the board doesn't want guests with a grudge then maybe they should insist certain people here be nicer to the their felllow named members in the first place.
It happens so often here. The closets here seem to be full of guest ghosts at times. As the board gets older those numbers will grow if one particular NF sub group doesn't learn healthier and better ways to relate. They should be bought to account whenever something like 'perfection' happens again with the same pack involved.
I've noticed people drop their names and revert to guest many times, to avoid being the board's same bully sub-group. They need their own personal Rodney King to kick. Who will be next? You? Me? Les?
I'm talking specifically about DG, Seeker and Phoenix and LTL and their own guest creations. They need to be watched and monitored and bought to account for any troublemaking, just as that troll post said.
Brad
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I'm with OnlyMe on this one..........being a virtual newbie I have found a lot of great advice from people (even those who have been named as troublemakers..........) Maybe when I have been here awhile I'll be able to keep straight who is saying what to who but for now? It is pretty confusing for me.
Interesting, though. I am sure that all the bashing that is going around would never be done in person..........anonymity makes it easier to vent and to fight and to correct........................almost like driving and being able to cuss out stupid drivers and yell at inconsiderate motorists. But don't flip anyone off or tailgate or anything like that or you risk a little road rage.
Board Rage? If all you get is a tongue lashing by someone on this board, consider them full of themselves and respond to the post prior to the verbal lashing.............................it's like I have started doing with my Nmom. She asks me a question, puts me on the spot, and in the past I have come back with excuses, denial or (later in life) retaliation.......now what do I do? Give her the silent treatment. I don't respond. And do you know what? That drives her more crazy then anything else. So my advice to those people who get corrected or chastised or verbally abused? The Silent Treatment. Wonder how much longer those types would continue to put down and belittle people if the thread just continued as if they never spoke up?
Just wondering???? Kelly
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So my advice to those people who get corrected or chastised or verbally abused? The Silent Treatment. Wonder how much longer those types would continue to put down and belittle people if the thread just continued as if they never spoke up?
Just wondering???? Kelly
You make a good point Kelly, and it would work in some situations.
Not in all though. Who was OG going to continue talking to? His or her abusers?
Okay, OG could have limped off feeling misunderstood to another thread I suppose.
But that doesn't address what I'm talking about. The bullies and their bullying. They would have achieved their objective if OG had of done that.
Perhaps I'm discussing a different topic. I'm talking about the regular pack-attacks that happen here witht the same players on individual posters.
Brad
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I'm talking specifically about DG, Seeker and Phoenix and LTL and their own guest creations. They need to be watched and monitored and bought to account for any troublemaking, just as that troll post said.
Brad
Brad sounds like the troll here, and is still trying to keep the pot stirred. :P
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I'm talking specifically about DG, Seeker and Phoenix and LTL and their own guest creations. They need to be watched and monitored and bought to account for any troublemaking, just as that troll post said.
Brad
Brad sounds like the troll here, and is still trying to keep the pot stirred. :P
Which pot? The one DG made? The one Seeker filled? The one Phoenix flavoured? Stinks to have your mess still present doesn't it girls?
Yes, (sigh) :roll: a response as I expected from one of the 'old girls network', the typical - expected - predictable response from one of them or theirs. :wink:
Those girls trundle along ignoring anything they don't like hearing. Even some truth from me, just because it hurts just a little bit. :wink:
Calling me a troll justifies them not listening to any opposing opinion of their own behaviour, doesn't it? :roll:
Also, if their strategy works, hopefully calling me a troll should not only silence me, but cause others not to dare to engage in any exchange with me about this topic of how OG was treated either. Very clever girls. You get off scott free once again.
Brad
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Hi Les, I read "Why is it always about you" too. Good book but I must admit, I wondered if it was a bit – a bit – too, what’s the word, erm,...well I thought it was ‘seeing Ns everywhere’. And yep, though I think we have a overdose of Nism in our countries, it was the tone of the parts on Nism at large that alarmed me. Almost like this had become a personal crusade for the writer? And I tend to shy away from extremes of any type. ‘Nothing is ever that clear-cut’ - kind of approach. Of course I do it myself, shucks yeah, but I don’t publish books saying ‘this is how it is’. Good book, but it’s not just Nism that’s to blame for corporate greed and destroying the planet, if you see what I mean. People can hate, envy, be greedy, be selfish and irresponsible and still not be Ns. Anyway. The main discussion! -
What gives anyone the right to kick butt? A therapist or good friend may have some rights in this area.
I agree. Or a partner! Or a child might kick the parent’s butt! But here? When I said I believe in kicking butt, I meant it worked for me – my butt got kicked and it helped me. The person doing it, in the instance I’m thinking of, told me his truth, his interpretation of the situation with my mother. He knows us both, in real life. It kicked my butt. Made me realise it wasn’t just her problem, it was mine too - my reactions to her mental instability, trying to get her to change instead of changing myself. He didn’t intend to kick my butt! He has no idea to this day what effect his words had on me, but it was a gift.
And what do I mean by kicking butt? Giving someone an alternative reading of ‘reality’. They see it their way, you see it differently and tell them. Preferably if they ask you to tell them.
Now: how the person responds to hearing your/my reality depends on them. You (can I just use ‘you’ here to mean ‘one’) – you don’t know how that person is going to interpret what you say. They might react by: feeling attacked, threatened (response: attack back, defend, go quiet, run away….etc). They might judge your reality as ‘nonsense’ and simply reject it (“don’t be daft, I know that colour is blue, it’s not red, I can see that and am confident that I see it correctly”).
So: kicking butt is all in how the recipient takes it. How the kicker intended it (helpful, hurtful) is not how it might be taken. I’ve seen helpful posts on the board taken as full-on attacks.
But what’s the motivation for kicking butt? That’s a huge question! What’s my motivation for being here? What’s my motivation for replying to you here? To be understood and try to understand, to say my views, hear yours, to try to show you my reality, my interpretation, see how it differs. Because I ‘feel’ that you were annoyed when you wrote your post and because of that, I want to reply. I ‘feel’ (oh yes I do, even though it sometimes sounds like ‘thinking’, to me) like it would be BAD MANNERS on my part to IGNORE you, especially if you are annoyed by me.
I’ve capitalised those words above because they’re big red buttons for me. I can’t stand being ignored (that’s what happened to me the kid) and I can’t stand bad manners, inconsiderate behaviour, simple rudeness. I take great exception to those who don’t say ’thank you’ and ‘please’. Example: someone writes a post, six people answer and the someone says thank you to one replier and ignores the rest. I have to stop reading! Yep, true. Happens all the time though! This is my problem, feeling ignored, feeling others have been ignored and the old righteous indignation gets up and wants to assert itself. I have to slap it down. Now: I’m not going to acknowledge other people in this thread unless they address me directly, because in this thread there’s a problem – that of creating sides, for/against etc. I ain’t doing it. Too black and white again.
I read your next post and you said “who are strong enough now to enjoy a good verbal fight”. Can I talk about the words strong, enjoy and good? People who are crazy, and I mean emotionally and intellectually unstable, don’t always have soft voices. Being voiceless can surely include being only able to scream? Some people who come here are very unwell. They scream. If by screaming they get to be a little bit more balanced, a little bit more self-aware, isn’t that okay? Shouting and abusing doesn’t mean that someone is strong, probably the opposite. And if they enjoy it, they’re sick. I enjoyed the release of smashing things. The noise of glass shattering stops the noise of shouting voices, my own included. That’s not healthy, or adult, or self-aware is it?
Hey I’m scrolling past Guest Brad’s posts and I notice I don’t get a mention as a troublemaker! Now that raises a question. I’m kind of being included by omission. I think you Les, other readers, know what I mean. Someone reading might think that Brad is ‘on my side’ because I’ve been omitted. So, heck, I better say something? Or should I? Do I have to? Why? To take sides? Who cares what I think about what Brad says? Brad doesn’t mention me, so maybe I don’t have to talk to Brad. I don’t know Brad, so maybe that’s all I need to think. Brad hasn’t talked to me, I don’t need to talk to Brad. Fair enough. Other people will or won’t make assumptions about me, about Brad, based on their views. I can’t influence those thoughts, except by saying what I’ve said and expecting to be believed....
Yeah I expect people to believe me here! And I get upset when I’m accused of not being truthful – truthful being subjective I know, so ‘telling my truth as I see it at any time’. I’m not multiple posters, and when I have posted as Guest, I say so coz I can’t take the conscience-strain! I despise purposeful lying. I do not lie about facts, actions. My opinions might be way-off, but I know what I post and what I don't post. When people question my identity here, they accuse me of lying. Red rag to a bull. Question my thinking, but not my board identity. My identity for goodness sake!!!!! I have to protect that otherwise I disappear (introverts unite in protecting our core identities).
I came back here to talk to you Les coz you asked questions and I LOVE that, asking questions, getting clarification, answering, getting more questions. So Les, what do you think? Want to ask any more? I’m all for continuing to talk, question, debate. And please disagree with me! How can I know what I really think unless someone questions the way I think, the things I think? If that’s kicking butt, you can kick my butt any day! :D Thanks for asking Les, I mean that, I appreciate it. It gives me the chance to listen and speak and that too, is a gift. P
PS. Whaddya think? A long self-righteous post full of self-justification? I don’t think so, but anyone is free to say that to me. And I’ll consider it. Ha ha before rejecting it! That’s another joke…hang on to your sense of humour….it helps as much as anything can.
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Those girls trundle along ignoring anything they don't like hearing. Even some truth from me, just because it hurts just a little bit.
Calling me a troll justifies them not listening to any opposing opinion of their own behaviour, doesn't it?
You are right, Brad! :D
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Hi Portia,
...feeling like a tired old woman here, minus a thyroid and a few other body parts! You are lively and inquistive Portia and I can see your desire to extract the truth out of each situation. I asked some questions and you gave some well considered replies. Perhaps younger and more agile minds can engage you and discuss the finer points of some of these issues . If you could imagine a very old basset hound lumbering along, stomach almost scraping the sidewalk, well, that's how I feel today, next to your frisky (would you be offended if I called you a young golden retriever?) I'm down a quart today for sure.
I suppose there is a different truth that I seek right now in my life- it has less to do personalities and precision in communicating and more to do with just conveying and receiving support. Now I can tell you just what my mother would say about that last line." Ugh, makes me want to suck lemons."
I received a fundraising letter in the mail today for children with learning disabilities. It said: "Healing requires counseling, great love and care and unquestioning encouragement from all support networks"... I know the idea of "unquestioning" could and probably should be debated. I guess it's the spirit of the letter that I responded to. I know we need to deliver our messages to each other with much care and concern. Well, this is all I seem to know...just where I am today. Off to bed I think.
Les
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..feeling like a tired old woman here
I suppose there is a different truth that I seek right now in my life- it has less to do personalities and precision in communicating and more to do with just conveying and receiving support.
That's me, too, these days. Take care of youself, Les - can't have anything happen to you, now!!!
Some day I might have enough energy left over to tackle extra challenges, but all my energy right now is spent trying to live a decent life, cope with the never-ending drain of my NM, grieving the death of my NDad and all the hopes that died with him, and trying to heal. Can't even picture the dog for me, other than maybe an old border collie, sleeping in front of the fireplace, legs twiching with dreams of all that she could be, and may be some day.
I only hope there is room for us all here - as we all pass through our various stages of healing and coping, but with no harm done, intentionally, to one another. What colour is the sky in my world, you might ask! I still believe that one day there will be peace everywhere, and I hope to be part of the process, somehow.
Those girls trundle along ignoring anything they don't like hearing. Even some truth from me, just because it hurts just a little bit. Wink
Not ignoring, just can't begin to extend myself in all directions, dancing to each and every tune at the moment. Maybe someday, when I get my spunk back, I'll challenge each and all, just for the adrenaline rush! But not yet.... :wink:
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Richard Grossman
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I am locking this thread because it has deteriorated to contentless taunts.
Richard Grossman