Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on September 23, 2011, 01:27:02 PM
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I want to open a thread about shame.
A friend refers to it as a "shame system". (Referring to a family member who is hitting bottom with alcoholism -- she feels that it's shame, deeper than denial, that is killing him.) I resist the "system" description because though it's probably accurate, I don't believe the answer lies in a cerebral analysis.
I've been thinking of how I feel shame over evil done in the name of my country. War, capital punishment, environmental degradation.
I feel shame for those who oppress, even when they oppress me.
I feel shame over racism -- the ghastly statistics about wealth, income, and imprisonment inequities.
I feel shame over sexism -- how our culture has gone retrograde and is more exploitative than ever.
Personally, I am interested in observing what shame is when I feel a wave or spurt of it. I think it's going on in me more than I know.
I think it's below my radar, a lot. I believe sometimes when I'm afraid, it's because I'm ashamed of admitting loneliness or failure.
I don't "think" shame, I feel it. Like a wave of something toxic.
I often see shame as an "enemy emotion", in a way. It feels like an attack on the self, from the self. It frightens me. I think that's key.
But the term "shameless" works for me...when applied to politicians or the brutal, I nod--it's a satisfying word. I feel that same judgment.
So, if judging others as "shameless" now and then works for me, I wonder why I avoid accepting my own shame.
I have mentioned here before an illuminating comment I heard once on TV--will trot it out again.
Guilt is a necessary and appropriate emotion that signals: I have made a mistake, and now I must make what amends I can.
Shame -- (wasn't really defined, on its own, by the speaker)
Toxic shame -- I am the mistake.
I love the compassion implicit in the "toxic shame" definition. But I might alter the "guilt" definition she gave. I would say instead of "made a mistake":
Guilt -- a necessary and appropriate emotion that signals: I have done harm. Now I must do all I can to repair the harm. ("Mistake" sounds like "an accident" and relieves me of the responsibility to own my own darkness, the wrong and harmful impulses I can have as a human being.)
Shame -- well, this is helpful: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=shame&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=m718TrWpKofw0gHDnZn6Dw&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c7a894f853d8d86&biw=1668&bih=895 (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=shame&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=m718TrWpKofw0gHDnZn6Dw&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c7a894f853d8d86&biw=1668&bih=895)
Hmm. Guilt http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=guilt&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=Lb58Tp63EoTz0gGnqsgR&sqi=2&ved=0CCMQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c7a894f853d8d86&biw=1668&bih=895 (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=guilt&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=Lb58Tp63EoTz0gGnqsgR&sqi=2&ved=0CCMQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c7a894f853d8d86&biw=1668&bih=895) seems to be less nuanced, more legalistic. I think maybe as a culture we've just ditched 'shame' for 'guilt' as more common parlance.
But the material on shame seems more important to me. For me.
For me, it's about where I am in my life. Feeling shame rises up, and I hide from it. At the same time, shame helps paralyse me and makes it harder for me to take the actions that would result in creating situations I feel less ashamed of. It's STOOPID. A vicious little cycle.
That's it...anybody have thoughts on shame? What it's about in you?
What does it mean for you?
xo
Hops
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Interesting Hops. I agree about 'feeling' shame. Can't remember the last time I felt it strongly. Is it like having a long face to face conversation when to your horror, you realise you have huge lump of nose-debris attached to the end of yours? (that sounds like a joke, but it's serious).
how I feel shame over evil done in the name of my country. War, capital punishment, environmental degradation.
Well, I don't call any country my country. I don't feel responsible for what the govt of this country, where I was born and live, does. I don't identify that strongly (and am glad of that). I'm also not powerful enough to influence what it does that much - okay I could choose to do stuff but i don't. Thinks: do I feel shame because I'm not an activist or cause-promoter of some sort? No, i think about that occasionally and decide I don't. I really don't feel a part of ...stuff.
The evil done by your country, or 'my' country, or ANY country (I'm building up now!) doesn't make me feel shame. Shame for what? Being human?
If i think enough about evil done, i get very very angry and then i get sad and then i get over myself. One small speck of a human doesn't add up to much - thankfully. Unfortunately, the small specks of humans who do add up to millions of deaths etc etc are so damn shame-driven (i suppose) that harming others is part of how they get over themselves, for an hour or two, i guess.
When the govt where I live does really stupid stuff I want to go in there and say: who advised you to do this? Why? Where was the advice? What the hell are you playing at? and so on. When Obama said something recently about not caring what Standard and Poor's rates the US as because "we'll always be a triple A country" I did actually laugh in astonishment. Hilarious. Who wrote that? How could he read it and agree to say it? I don't know. What utter bullshit, really. See? Anger.
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Wow, FW.
I envy you not feeling personal shame often.
(Stipulated--the politics stuff, the offloading of shame that must be behind so much blindness and cruelty. I know that's not resolvable on my scale, either.)
I am most interested in personal shame, what triggers it, how it feels to others, how they recognize that feeling as opposed to anxiety or fatigue or whatever...
I just think there is or might be some epiphany in it. (For me). Thinking about shame in one's own life.
When it's recognized. Whether it's an "enemy emotion" -- to others too?
thanks for writing,
Hops
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Hops, I don't know if I feel personal shame or not. I don't know if what you call shame is what i might call something else. I just don't know. I do know that i have felt hot horrible shame sometimes, the kind of feeling that is hard to bear - you have to shut it out of your mind and then approach it later, examine it, poke it over, see what responsibility might apply to you now, or not. Understand it, move on. Change, even. Admit any wrongdoing, understand it, put it where it belongs. Heck i suppose my shame is in the past and not the present then. Ha, now I'm wondering if I'm defective for not having shame???? Oh well.
I tried your links and both times got just the google home page, possibly because I'm out of your jurisdiction?
i wonder if feeling shame is linked to being too responsible for things outside of you, or perhaps like some sorts of shyness/social paranoia (everyone is looking at me), it is the flipside of grandiosity? Noone is looking, and mostly noone cares enough to be noticing, so what's the shame about - because we're paranoid or because we're 'special'?
It seems to me that shame may be very much linked to 'ego' or 'self' and the attachment to. But I know nothing.
edit: so shame, maybe, is something to do with
taking your self too seriously
thinking that what you do, or, what you are, is somehow important.
I imagine that shame doesn't like humour very much.
oh Hops and ENVY! I could write on that but I'm not much good at writing right now. You're much better.
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"we'll always be a triple A country"
I thought about this some more. Why did I laugh, with surprise?
I still harbour optimism.
I'm surprised that the US is this much on the defensive. Learn Mandarin? That's not the way, or any way.
That phrase says it all. Talk about 'will the last person please turn off the lights'; and I don't mean the US.
Ha! The phrase SHAME ON YOU could be used a hell of alot more than it is these days. It needs reviving. Any volunteers?
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Ah-hah.
I think there's something true in that, FW, what you said about it being "special" so feel so much shame. It really could be grandiosity--which is........tada and oh horrors..........an Nspot. In my view.
Ugh. Now I'm feeling ashamed for feeling shame.
Just kidding. I'm not really. But the ego connection is definitely something for me to think about.
Sorry about the links--but if you just Google "shame definition" -- the Wiki page was the first one. Likewsie for "guilt definition."
tx,
Hops
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I'm not not sure there ISN'T something valuable in examining feeling shame, say for the actions of another person or one's country. That's waaaay too much responsibility (and punishment) for one person, IMO. But we'll save that for later.
Hops: the way shame works for me is that yes, I'm singled out as someone "special" all right. But it's more as the worstest, awfulest, most despicable excuse for a human being with no redeeming value whatsoever. Someone who must hide in my shame... and it IS a punishment - for "who one is" (as if, you'll never change unless we beat this out of you). And yet, one is who one is....
... SO. In the Wiki definition, that talks about shame being an attack on the self, which then causes the self to "split" - into two selves... it's like having an "evil twin". Some of our "urges" get labelled shameful and attributed to the evil twin which is, to the best of one's ability hidden and dis-owned as "self"... and then we try to pro-actively support the other attributes in the "good self"... except it doesn't have much passion, energy, or free will - it's always trying to fit someone else's requirements or definition of "who we are". This is what river talks about, when she refers to the "Self in Exile". Shame is the weapon used that causes this to happen.
But, while it is definitely connected to ego... ego in itself is not a bad thing. (Not having one at all is very bad! - that's like not having any boundaries; what buddhism refers to as "ego", is slightly different, I think). Nspots, of the variety I think you're talking about here... are healthy ones, Hops.
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Much like a sound bite, but I'll throw it into the mix.
"Guilt says I've done something wrong; shame says there is something wrong with me.
Guilt says I've made a mistake; shame says I am a mistake.
Guilt says what did was not good; shame says I am no good."
And what the heck, I like this essay, so I'll throw it in too.
“ … our models can tyrannize us by setting up unrealistic standards of
heroism, therefore condemning us to frustrated shame”
dick keyes
http://www.labri.org/england/resources/08042008/DK04_Shame-and-Guilt.pdf
tt
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Hops
what you said about it being "special" so feel so much shame. It really could be grandiosity--which is........tada and oh horrors..........an Nspot.
Not necessarily; perhaps like depressed people sometimes being so self-absorbed that you want to shout at them! Too much inwards, not enough outwards.
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One thing that may be a constant struggle....understanding the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame.
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Hops - what you wrote as a definition of guilt had a remedy included in it; a way to resolve the uncomfortable feeling. What is the remedy for healthy shame? toxic shame?
That's not a rhetorical question. I don't have an answer to suggest yet.
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I'm not sure of a remedy either...
I am interested in knowing whether anyone else thinks shame may be "below the radar" and be sometimes confused with other feelings, like anxiety or anger or fatigue...
I think because I see it as an "enemy emotion" I'm avoiding recognizing it.
Hops
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Hops
I was out clearing leaves thinking about your questions, and trying to peg that shame moment, what it feels like. This is what I'd call healthy shame, definitely. It does you some sort of good. It doesn't need a remedy, so long as you accept it?
And I thought, I can remember an exact moment when I suddenly realised after some interactions: "Oh God, I'm so up myself." That's how I can describe it (the particular moment I had, and there are different feelings, such as shock/horror), and the feeling is quite distinct. It says:
I have let myself down.
Or: what I thought I was doing there, what I was being, the image I had of myself there - was wrong. I was not living up to the standards I set myself; or, I was believing my own PR, if that makes sense.
I guess it's like an internal guilt and self-recrimination all at once. I have done myself wrong.
It's a difficult one to peg though because sometimes it seems to be eaten up inside you as soon as it happens. It's also painful because you get to blame yourself and forgive yourself, all on your own, as it were.
Is that anywhere close to what you're thinking about? Or am I up myself again? (quite possible)
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That is extremely helpful, FW--thank you!
I am really helped by this notion: I have let myself down.
Thank you. That really does bring this feeling into better focus.
And the lightning speed of it, too.
It's like--one feels it, then has to forgive oneself in order not to be overcome by it...all at once.
I think humor helps (you have abundant) -- and compassion.
Sometimes I think if I could better identify and understand the actual momentary process that's going on when shame is triggered, then I wouldn't have to work so hard, with so many tapioca aphorisms and affirmations, to have compassion for myself generally.
Appreciate this a lot.
xo
Hops
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and your thoughts too, Bones, TT, PR--
I am still absorbing.
xo
Hops
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Good, Hops.
you said earlier:
I am interested in knowing whether anyone else thinks shame may be "below the radar" and be sometimes confused with other feelings, like anxiety or anger or fatigue...
I think so. Anger may arise from/because of confusion. Once my confusion lifts, and I can see more clearly, that's when I may be able to realise when I have transgressed myself. And it's a horrible moment. And I might need to feel guilt at the same time. It's complicated. Anxiety might be a sign that all is not well, an alert?
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Ugh.
I majored in anxiety.
Have to say, the actual constant symptoms of free-floating anxiety (that horrible disembodied dread) and the full-scale panic attacks (well, don't count my recent chest pain scares, which tested negative)... but generally, I think my anxiety is a heck of a lot better.
I have graduated to WORRY.
May sound like a joke but actually, for me, worry is an improvement. It's more...rational? And, I think passing menopause also helped.
Neither helps me live well but worry is less disabling than anxiety, I think because it's easier to name:
I am worried about _____ (something clear) as opposed to I feel anxious (general dread).
Hops
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Hops, before I have a completely right-brained, ADD melt-down this morning...
I wanted to say I think it might be possible to tell healthy shame apart from the toxic kind... because healthy shame dissapates and responds to compassion and forgiveness of self. Apply as needed! Toxic shame needs something in addition to those "remedies"... but I can't put a name to that yet.
With toxic shame, it's not possible to forgive oneself, because there isn't any "thing" that one has done wrong. The shame came from outside; unjustly. The wound is deeper than that.
That's all for now. I gotta go find all the pieces of me, and put them together in some pattern resembling my normal persona this morning. Maybe I'm sick... sure not thinking on all cylinders.
OH - and I wanted to share some good news that might help shorten your worry list! It was a lengthy article in the Review section of Sat's WSJ - "Violence Vanquished", Stephen Pinker - according to his analysis of the numbers, actual acts of violence have decreased significantly since the middle ages. The article is adapted from his new book: "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined" (Viking).
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and your thoughts too, Bones, TT, PR--
I am still absorbing.
xo
Hops
(((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Hops
my recent chest pain scares, which tested negative
GOOD. For the test result, that is.
Glad too that you've graduated to worry. I don't take it as a joke. Worry has a place (and a time).
PR
I agree with your remedies for healthy shame. Accepting it comes first. Well, experiencing it and acknowledging it come first!
Toxic shame remedy: doesn't that depend on your type of personality disorder, or, the way your brain deals with healthy shame anyway? Or don't PDs have the same kind of toxic shame? Ha! Sorry. That's probably not the sort of question I should pose when you say you're heading for RB ADD meltdown.
Hope any anxiety/worry/meltdowns are short-lived and kept in perspective.
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Toxic shame doesn't really imply a PD, nor vice versa. Perhaps they co-exist sometimes... it's not a given correlation, because it is "fixable" with attention and effort and compassion.
Toxic shame, a totally different animal than healthy shame, is when a person's self-image, self-respect, whole concept on oneself... has been manipulated, twisted, made into an object of ridicule and tagged with a "bad" or "unworthy" label... and then stuffed back down one's own throat, and then forced to swallow and digest and "be" this... because someone else SAID so... while the "self" in question here... was powerless to object or reject the definition of self, as such an abomination.
Or believed themselves powerless.
By inference, with toxic shame, the person is forced to accept that (usually) a specific "other person" is wiser, smarter, more insightful, and perfectly within their rights to completely dominate and control the person who has swallowed this idea that they are less than... other people.
Possibly, there is a remedy akin to the remedy for healthy shame - where one is able to accept the wrong done and then forgive oneself. And that remedy requires another person... who is able to compassionately relieve that awful shame, by presenting another authoritative point of view. Over-ruling the original wound of toxic shame. Slowly, but surely persuading the "victim" here... that it was all wrong... but the responsibility of it; the accountability... doesn't belong with the "victim". The "victim" is a human being, and as such capable of thinking and feeling and even acting on, the whole range of emotional responses.
Including turning on one's self because of the survival instinct and anger combined in a nasty cocktail. Beating oneself up with "OH I should've..." or comparing oneself to other "higher" human beings and then over-reacting on how oneself is lacking... or holding unrealistic expectations of one's normal ability; perfectionism... or being over-responsible for things outside of the scope of one's control... or even having a series of physical "accidents" - actually hurting oneself... and self-destructive behavior and self-sabotage. Toxic shame's whole "intent" is to wipe out the existence of the self, as it is naturally. And yet, the survival instinct in all of us will fight tooth and nail to keep alive... setting up an internal conflict.
Occasionally, the person suffering from the toxic form of shame turns it outward, in hostility. Relieving their agony of the conflict between shame and survival instinct by inflicting the same unjust power of shame onto others... and even, attempting to control others completely through that shame... in other words, the gamut of Nism.
At least, this is how I understand the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame. For now. I doubt that it's complete or even that deep. But perhaps it helps explain how people can be "split" within themselves and one way back, to being a whole person again. Over time, one can learn to forgive oneself for those instinctual, desperate measures taken to survive and the initial swallowing of and perception of powerlessness... and then address the behaviors that arose from such a perverted sense of self being. Even over time, one retains a sensitive "button"... to criticism, judgement, even amiable teasing because it pushes on scar tissue. Self-doubt remains. Trust of oneself has to be earned; proven. And it takes a while to get comfortable with the idea that it's human to "matter"... at least to oneself.
That's my left brain explanation. My right brain explanation is simply that it's never too late to learn to love and care for oneself, that one matters to oneself... and that if what's necessary to care for myself conflicts with what others expect or want from me... I can put myself first without also beating myself up for it. No one has to "approve" of it or me. Except me.
<end of pontificating lecture>
Pardon the interruption and pre-emption of the topic. Back to your normally scheduled programming.
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That mostly sounds very familiar to me. I was struck by :
presenting another authoritative point of view
so very, very important.
Thanks for that, PR.