Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: nolongeraslave on November 20, 2011, 12:22:53 AM
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Do any of your N moms say this?
Just curious.
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The L word? Are you kidding? I've maybe only heard that once or twice in my life!! (now, 55).
According to her, I'm just supposed to "know" she loves me... which of course, is ONLY expressed by her dumping all her negative delusional perceptions out on me... which of course, I'm supposed to validate for her - even though I don't see it the same way she does. Her validate my feelings?? Understand me and my life?? Fergeddaboutit.
Hell, she doesn't even remember my birthday - and the last couple times I visited - she didn't recognize me, either.
What's bugging you about this, NLS?
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Do any of your N moms say this?
Just curious.
Unfortunately......no.
Bones
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Can't remember, NLAS. She could have done, it's one of those hugely manipulative pieces of BS. Long time ago she did say that because she was my mother, if I was in danger she would save me (by finding the strength to lift a boulder off me, for example), because that's what mothers do. I think she'd been reading about or watching stories about mothers' incredible feats of strength saving their kids, so I guess she thought, oh yes, that's me, I'm a good mother, and of course, then had to tell me so.
HAHA. As if the putting something into words sorts it out, all done, as if the words are equivalent to the action! I think they work like that. If they say it, it's as good as done. Except of course when you watch their actions, they don't do anything of the sort. Me and you, we're straight under that bus as soon as one comes along!
Anyone who says your title sentence is being manipulative. When people say that, start running. You don't want to hear it.
Does yours repeatedly call you 'darling', 'sweetie', or another word instead of your name? I think they do that when they've realised they easily forget who they're talking to, especially if they don't recognise you! :roll:
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It bugs me, because other people will perceive her as a very loving mom. If I tell someone what she's done, they will say "But she says she loves you so much." My mom does brag about me to others at work and presents herself as being very attached.
My pedophile step-dad also says he loves me very much. I get all of these sappy and sweet cards for my birthday.
I do think abusive parents love their kids and will say that they love them. In their sick heads, the abuse is a form of love or they are in such denial of what they're doing.
I also find it questionable when a parent feels the need to brag about how much they love a child. When you love someone, you just do it. Why go out of your way to brag about it?
Freshwater-Yes, my mom does have a number of nicknames for me. It's so weird how she morphs into this loving mom in public that's ready to shower me with affection, but she becomes cold once the door closes.
In middleschool when I was getting bullied and sexually abused, my mom would again "Not even your husband will love me as much as I do." For godsakes, your husband is molesting me and you're ignoring the red flags. I'm having my self-esteem ripped to shreds at school and you also say "Just put up with it, because it's the best school in the state." That's love?
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NLS,
That line really resonates with me! I can't remember if my NM ever said it aloud or just implied it. Also, the related "No one will ever understand you as much as I do." Cue my own inner voice: WTF? But you don't understand me at all. That means no one in the world will ever really see or understand me. It will never get better than this. Kill me now!
At any rate, I think that statement reeks of engulfment!
Do you mind my asking if that sentiment played itself out in your romantic relationships? Like, did your NM generally approve/disapprove of your partners? Was she convinced that they loved you as much as "she did?"
My NM despised/bullied every partner I've ever had (including dear husband). It's, like, how dare I be more committed to anyone than her? She even gets jealous of the attention I give my children. It's sort of like she wants to be my husband. Twisted.
Anyway, if that sentiment felt inauthentic/abusive to you than it probably was. And it's very brave of you to suss that out.
lots of love, Kay
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(I'm so sorry, I was posting just as you were posting your last reply)...
I want to add how sorry I am. You totally deserved a mom who protected you from all of that, helped you, heard you when you told her about your problems at school.
Actions count a lot more than words. It's all well and good for parents to say they love their children, but it doesn't count for much unless their actions line up. Without that, the words feel phony, empty.
I hear you. I totally relate. And I think it's very insightful and gutsy of you to call B.S. on your NM's claim.
Kay x
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NLAS
some people may be charmed by her, a few may not be. Those few are the ones to look out for, because they will look out for you.
I'd explain my point of view if I thought it would do any good. Mostly it wouldn't do any good and I know that. But I don't know, sometimes people exceed our expectations and surprise us in a good way.
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It bugs me, because other people will perceive her as a very loving mom. If I tell someone what she's done, they will say "But she says she loves you so much." My mom does brag about me to others at work and presents herself as being very attached.
Hey NLAS. This comment really resonates with me. My mother has always been diligent with the presentation of herself to colleagues and so forth as a "loving" person. It's a smoke screen that helps keep other people from ever seeing into the reality of the situation. Another weird pattern in my FOO: I never once heard the word "love" until I was in my 20's. There wasn't so much as a kind word when I and the sibs were actually in the house. Then all of a sudden there was a strange shift in her behavior and she's talking about love and affection on a regular basis. I think of it as a hook to keep the offspring attached to the situation. It's easy to talk love when you don't really have to do anything to back it up. Put any expectation or pressure on her and she turns into a seething hateful monster.
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This is why they guilt me too. They say "Look at how other families treat their kids. We love you so much and these other families don't even tell their kids they love you."
The few people I"m close to know how toxic she is. I've learned who to tell and who not to tell.
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Nmom said that to me exactly the same, all of the time.
Word for word.
I think now that it's meant to isolate you. On one hand, she's sucking you dry of your emotional lifeblood, and on the other, what she's really telling you is, "No one will ever believe that my image is less than perfect, little darling... Don't even think about speaking up to others."
Hang in there.
SF
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It bugs me, because other people will perceive her as a very loving mom. If I tell someone what she's done, they will say "But she says she loves you so much."
I completely "get" this, NLS... that unsettling dissonance between appearances and reality; and for me, this huge fear that "other people" will believe the fakey-holier than thou, yet horribly victimized picture my mom creates of herself... instead of what I know, without a doubt, is how I've been treated and what she did to me... that has taken me years to undo. The worst of this, was the self-doubt... which led to dependency on others' feedback, approval, etc... simply because the pattern got stuck in my brain, that no one would believe me -- about her.
I had to make a conscious effort to believe my self about what happened then; and how things are now. Can you imagine what that's like?? I still have moments when I fall back into that old pattern, but it's way better than before.
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No one in my family has ever told me that they love me. I'm 51, and have still never heard the word. My NM has, however, written it in the nasty notes she sends. I once got a three page tirade where she told me how evil I was for going NC, filled with MAJOR drama. She told that I was a hateful person who was jealous of my brother (the GC) for no reason. That was followed by something along the lines of, "I love my two girls as much as I love my son, and he has never gotten anything that you didn't get." So she's not telling me that she loves me, she's trying to convince me that the millions of dollars in cash, cars, and houses that he's been given is a figment of my imagination.
Kathy
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It bugs me, because other people will perceive her as a very loving mom. If I tell someone what she's done, they will say "But she says she loves you so much." My mom does brag about me to others at work and presents herself as being very attached.
My pedophile step-dad also says he loves me very much. I get all of these sappy and sweet cards for my birthday.
I do think abusive parents love their kids and will say that they love them. In their sick heads, the abuse is a form of love or they are in such denial of what they're doing.
I also find it questionable when a parent feels the need to brag about how much they love a child. When you love someone, you just do it. Why go out of your way to brag about it?
Freshwater-Yes, my mom does have a number of nicknames for me. It's so weird how she morphs into this loving mom in public that's ready to shower me with affection, but she becomes cold once the door closes.
In middleschool when I was getting bullied and sexually abused, my mom would again "Not even your husband will love me as much as I do." For godsakes, your husband is molesting me and you're ignoring the red flags. I'm having my self-esteem ripped to shreds at school and you also say "Just put up with it, because it's the best school in the state." That's love?
Again, apologies not to read all the posts.
But I love what you said Nlas, its an oxymoron to beat all oxymorons. The in-built implicit message is 'dont separate from me', ie I dont support you to grow into a life where you are deeply fulfilled in love. I want you dependent on me. If you feel guilt also as a result of this statment, thats not my problem. As well, in my world, the way I relate is to be the bestest at everything, including loving you. I AM the centre of the world in my universe, as well as in yours.
And there you have it, the relational anatomy of the way an N relates. And I wouldnt be suprised if this actually came out of a tiny kernal of real love. But in the disorders of the self, specially N, all legitimate real feelings are hijacted, and co-opted for the purpose of control, grandiosity ect, the usual N type agenda's.
phew, thanks for that opportunity to get all that out, not many people in the world would care or understand this at all.
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Yes, verbatim . . . while she criticized me.
More infamous words from NMom:
"You shouldn't feel that way."
"Nobody likes you."
"You'll never . . . ."
"I will always love you as long as you . . . ."
"I don't know why you did . . . ."
"You are so ridiculous."
"You are so dramatic."
"You look so much better when you . . . ."
And the kicker:
"Don't you care about my feelings!!!"
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Mine was much more sublte than that. But I got the message.
My reaction was, Really? Let me see about that . . . .
No wonder I split and got married at 19.;
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The in-built implicit message is 'dont separate from me', ie I dont support you to grow into a life where you are deeply fulfilled in love. I want you dependent on me. If you feel guilt also as a result of this statment, thats not my problem. As well, in my world, the way I relate is to be the bestest at everything, including loving you. I AM the centre of the world in my universe, as well as in yours.
And there you have it, the relational anatomy of the way an N relates. And I wouldnt be suprised if this actually came out of a tiny kernal of real love. But in the disorders of the self, specially N, all legitimate real feelings are hijacted, and co-opted for the purpose of control, grandiosity ect, the usual N type agenda's.
phew, thanks for that opportunity to get all that out, not many people in the world would care or understand this at all.
Well said River! That definitely fits with what I experienced in the FOO. First it was close to 20 years of emotional neglect. Then it was 20 years of loading on the guilt and phony emotion in order to keep the structure intact. The feelings I had about the situation were of no concern at all.
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....... First it was close to 20 years of emotional neglect. Then it was 20 years of loading on the guilt and phony emotion in order to keep the structure intact. The feelings I had about the situation were of no concern at all.
Do any such adult children want nurturing from their parents I wonder? I mean, really want it, as opposed to missing what they didn't get. Maybe. I imagine they might, if they like their parent and enjoy their company. Kind of difficult for me to imagine though.
Ouch for both of these, + very clearly put. (I borrowed one from other post). The reason 'ouch' is that I also see my own pattern here. Big difference is that I have tried to make amends. Big puzzle and ~ as well as a cause of feeling alienated, for me is why did no body have the understanding of this whole dynamic of the disorders in all those years I searched for help. I myself missed the chance to fulfil those loving years when my child was little. I had my own disorder, but it wasn't N. disorder, it was the other disorder that is commonly a result of the fall out of a family organised around an N.
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Yes, she said that to me and also said that she was the only one to give a kidney if I needed it.
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I have a lot of guilt around this...
I wasn't trying to manipulate my D, I loved her with all my flawed heart, but no question, it was an enmeshing thing.
I did not know that. I had no idea that's what I was doing.
I am miserable over having not helped her grow up sound.
I know others (including her father, my mother, etc.) contributed...but I am so sad about it.
Hops
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(((((((((Hops)))))))))
It is by no means the worst thing to say to a person. There are many worse things. I have said worse myself, and heard worse.
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Something about the way I share seems to result in me being left alone. In contrast to the response hops got, although I think we both were describing similar life experiences.
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River
are you feeling alone on this board, is that what you're saying?
I read your post and want you to know I acknowledge it. Even if people don't say so, they read and most probably understand what you say. I respond to very few posts but I wanted to say, you aren't alone (((((((((River))))))))).
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Thanks, freshwater. I felt very risky and embarrassed about having said that, but decided to say it anyway.
I feel acknowledged now.
I wanted to break a pattern.
r.
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River, I try to read all of the posts, but sometimes I don't reply because I don't have an answer, or fear saying the wrong thing. I don't want to hurt someone's feelings by trying to respond to an issue that I don't have knowledge of or experience dealing with. I figure it's better to say nothing than to put my foot in my mouth and say something potentially hurtful. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way. Do know that your posts are being read. :)
Kathy
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I didn't say this exact thing to my D, but something similar enough, once...it was about my own feeling that I love her more than any other human being.
Maybe I'm too quick to indict myself.
Hi, ((((((((River))))))) -- the only difference I could pick up between your post and mine was maybe that mine included quite a few words that described my feelings/emotions.
Maybe that invites empathy -- regardless of why, I am grateful.
I don't like the notion of comparing responses though...suggests competition.
You deserve compassion and comfort too!
love,
Hops
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I think I see what you are saying, her phrasing of the expression is kind of twisted right?
The original post "Nobody will ever love you as much as I do".....I think is heard to mean something more like..."Nobody will ever really love you".. (Maybe I'm wrong, just guessing). The start of this sentence is Nobody will ever love you.....
Someone could have said other things right...like "I love you so much"...or "The love I feel for you is stronger then anything I have ever experienced". "I love you more then I have ever loved anybody else." OR "I will never love anybody as much as I love you."
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I have a lot of guilt around this...
I wasn't trying to manipulate my D, I loved her with all my flawed heart, but no question, it was an enmeshing thing.
I did not know that. I had no idea that's what I was doing.
I am miserable over having not helped her grow up sound.
I know others (including her father, my mother, etc.) contributed...but I am so sad about it.
Hops
Sounds like this is really eating at you Hops.
(sorry for therapizing) It's just that when I read here what you have put down, I get a visual picture of the guilt like a burden that is stuck on you but stuck on you really hard and really close and almost like you are holding it so you have something to hold on to. Like the intensity of the enmeshment is related to the intensity of the attachment/holding to the guilt.
I don't know maybe I shouldnt say that at all? Maybe it is not accurate.
Hops, you sound like you have so much remorse for your shortcomings or mistakes you may have made with your daughter and that sounds a lot different to me then most of the Narcissists described in the stories on the board that never really appear to show concern for how they are impacting other's around them nor do any Narcissists ever show a desire for a higher quality relationship with the impacted one.
Maybe you shouldn't be so hard on yourself.
The point is not to make the mistakes over and over right?
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Actually I shouldn't say that Narcisists never show a desire for a higher quality relationship. My mother did go to a therapist who told her just to try "being nice" to me. And she was for about two weeks back in April/May of this year. I knew better then to get my hopes up though.
It only lasted for about two weeks and now I know what it would feel like IF my mother was nice to me, it's well really nice.
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Boat, thank you. You completely got the distinction.
You're right, what I was saying to my D back then was how much I love her.
Not that "nobody will ever...".
And the guilt. Thank you for seeing how I have too much and hold it too tightly. Really, thank you.
My D has a pattern of kind of swarming me with communication when she's in a crisis. I'm usually so relieved to have the contact that I just step in to help, and we'll be in touch daily, and I'll think at the same time -- oh, we're really in relationship again. So even though what's happening may be hard, there's a part of me that's grateful for the connection.
Then when my funds run out and she's moved on, she tends to drop communication again. Kind of swinging from one extreme to another. Makes holidays hard. (She doesn't acknowledge them so I have to work at getting emotionally ready for those days.) I do have to work on feelings of abandonment. Self pity (my only child, won't even call me on Thanksgiving...kind of thoughts. They start, and I shake them off and put them away).
She is also insightful and blunt and sometimes says brutal but accurate things. Most recently she said, "I think you can't handle the separation" and "I can't find my own intiative if I have to respond to many messages from you".
She was right. Well, I've handled a LOT of separation, but she's right it's difficult. And as to the intiative...made complete sense to me. I got it.
Thanks again Boat...
Hops
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Hops,
Have you ever tried just making an agreement to talk once a week or so? Even if you initiated the calls...like maybe you could call her every Saturday morning at 10 am or so.I don't know how far you live from her, but maybe you can take her out for lunch once every so often. No expectations, jsut food and chit-chat. Not too invasive, but enough to keep in touch.
It seems like your current system involves a crisis, then a lot of contact in a concentrated amount of time, then overload and pulling back, then avoidance until the next crisis. So you only share in your daughters life when something bad is happening. Not much fun for you, painful associations for her.
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Erin,
Your second paragraph was so insightful. Thank you truly. That really helped me see it another way.
And I like your idea. Since she's now 3 hours away the lunches won't work, but when we're "out of touch"
the method I've reverted to is to simply leave her one voicemail a week, usually on a Sunday afternoon.
I have to make very clear I'm just saying hello...and I also have to be very careful not to insert any
emotional neediness into the message. Not "I miss you" or "I'm worried" (though those are true).
Just do the calm, adult, Mama bear, saying "Just thinking of you, hope everything's fine, things are
fine here, love you. Talk to you later" kind of thing.
At times in the past when the thread was ruptured, that seemed to keep the door open until she
felt like talking to me again.
Your summary, though, was so helpful. I wish I could share that with her. Not sure it'd be wise.
But I will definitely share that with my T...thanks again.
(He mentioned to me that his own adult D, who's been through some terrible stuff, called
him just to arrange lunch one day recently, and they just met and had lunch and enjoyed it.
He was very happy, said he told her that this felt so adult, and he was really pleased.)
xo
Hops
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This thread feels very live for me.
I specially want to talk to hops now. First, thanks for the hug back then. I know what you're saying about not comparing responses one gets, otherwise its like sort of dysfunctional family competition stuff. But I was in a catch 22, and could say something and be in danger of competing for attention and huggs, (looking like the angry toddler), and saying nothing and feeling ghosted, and that would be repeating pattern for me. So, I decided to do this differently, and I appreciate the response. I think you're exactly right when you say, you talked more emotionally and so get a more engaged response.
And the above exchange perhaps gives me a chance to explain what Im on about when I talk about the 'Disorders of the Self' dynamic. Ie, its not just about N.ism. What you described with your D. is really an element of the borderline dynamic, that is relationship based on a crisis or a problem. This is not to say catastrophically, she has a personality disorder, or is a borderline, as much to say that there is a specific dynamic underlying the way of relating of a borderline, and N or a schizoid, each dynamic gives rise to another dynamic. I know I have the schizoid dynamic, and I have done the damage that I have done by acting out on that specific one. Now today I try to relate from real self, not from the disorder, try to break the patterns. Like you are trying to do with your D., you want to have real, consistent, respectful enjoyable connection with her. And thats the task. And for me too, to find healthy, loving ways of relating that dont enable ither of these dynamics, even in theier milder forms.
The reason I share all this, tho it may seem long winded, is that I trully believe that its important for recovering communiteis to grasp this dynamic just like people need to be wise to Nism and its cunning, baffling destructiveness.
I feel Im going out on a limb, :? I want to share what I see. I know this understanding can make all the difference.
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Hi River,
I'm petrified of diagnosing my D with anything although various terminology has helped...
thank you for being so thoughtful about it, and sharing what you've learned.
Mostly I find I'm helped when I simplify it a lot. Just get all gentle with myself about what hurts,
what doesn't hurt...and what feels adult or its opposite. And then remember to have compassion
for her too; not get stuck in my own hurt feelings.
In my particular shoes, my current T has helped a lot because he has such a pragmatic
approach...he won't let me fixate on acronyms or diagnostic terminology (I have an anxious tendency to--
always hunting for the evil inner Nspots in myself, for example...) and he always comes down to compassion and
what-works. He's a kind of "good mechanic" T...not very fluent, but knows by listening when an
engine (or relationship) is running well or when it sounds all clogged up.
Sometimes when he sums something up, I feel like I've just heard what "healthy" is.
It has a startling kind of simplicity. So I try to mimic that thinking. It's helpful when I remember to!
I can hear how deeply you're tackling the spectrum of stuff you found in the hand you were
dealt...many kudos for your hard work, River. It has to pay off!
hugs
Hops
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Hops, I'm grateful for the way you demonstrate gentleness with your SELF because I think I have begun to do a little of that with my SELF as well probably in part because I can see a few people including your SELF do this.
I can be pretty blunt in general but also with my SELF. Always felt like I had to be hard to cut through all the nonsense.
There is probably a bit of zen balance to be learned in that (gentle and hard/strong)....
On the topic of simplicity, I think YES!, when I experience something that feels healthy and "normal" there is an EASY simplicity to it.
Maybe it's because in the company of certain people we don't have to defend ourselves so much or go into our controlling habits and stuff, don't have to apologize for ourselves.
Simplicity is something that I know I personally need more of...that is why I grabbed a book off of the free book shelf a few weeks ago called "Keep it Simple Stupid", It is sort of biblical. If only simplicity was simple.
Yeah, as I was weeding through my psychic clutter....I thought to myself "This is too damn complicated in there like a big tangled ball of a hundred different strings". How NICE it must be to NOT feel all tangled up!
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Hi River:
Did you have recommendations for books to read about this subject?
This topic is really interesting to me, I would like to learn more about this dynamic that is based on a crisis or a problem. Crisis and problem appears to be a constant in my mother's relationships and I saw my brother go through one crisis after another a few years ago and my mother essentially fueled it. NOW I am pretty much in ongoing crisis.
When I saw it happening with my brother I attributed the CRISIS behaviour to his alcoholism. But now that I am in the role of the person in crisis I think it has less to do with Alcoholism. (The only time I get drunk is like once or twice a year when I am at my relatives.) I have to justify it. I figure I will drink as an attempt to relate to them not really because I crave it...after a few nights at my mother's place I can't stand to see alcohol anymore...feel like I need to do a fasting detox routine or something because it physically wears me out.
It is confusing because of the alcoholism in my family but I think it is more useful to look at the Narcissism etc...rather then the alcoholism. I don't know, it just seems that alcoholism is more of a symptom of the Narcissism. Anyways. No wonder nothing is SIMPLE.
It is sometimes so ridiculous. When I was over house sitting at my mother's place...I had an uneventful day, she came home for the evening, I spent the night there with her while her husband was away hunting. Right before she goes to bed she starts trying to argue with me because I left a banana peel in her car. (YES, I did leave a single banana peel in her car). But I don't think that one thing is really argument worthy...it's sort of an excuse. So I can see her getting all ready to flip out and she is starting to tell me how horrible and rude and inconsiderate I am (after I spent the previous few days housesitting and dog sitting for her because she didn't want to take dog to kennel) this was also after she had maybe 4 glasses of wine....I just said to her "GOOD NIGHT "Nar-Ma's Name"...had to repeat this phrase 3 times. She turned around and went to sleep. I'm getting better at not arguing with her but the weird whole-family dynamic is beyond me. I mean a banana peel in the car doesnt = horrible person. Doesnt even equal slob really because I put all her dirty dishes in dishwasher and cleaned up her kitchen. I have always felt that somewhere deep down inside that I am just a horrible person!
I try to stay away from diagnosing people except in my mother's case I really just needed a way to figure out what the problem was so I did end up diagnosing/labeling her in my own mind. Maybe I should even venture to say she is an alcoholic even though I always reserved that distinction for her husband and my brother.
Funny thing is I'm nice when I'm (rarely) drunk. Maybe mean alcoholics almost always have a personality disorder. I'm sort of rambling here going into my own thing. Excuse me.
'Disorders of the Self' dynamic. Ie, its not just about N.ism. What you described with your D. is really an element of the borderline dynamic, that is relationship based on a crisis or a problem. This is not to say catastrophically, she has a personality disorder, or is a borderline, as much to say that there is a specific dynamic underlying the way of relating of a borderline, and N or a schizoid, each dynamic gives rise to another dynamic. I know I have the schizoid dynamic, and I have done the damage that I have done by acting out on that specific one. Now today I try to relate from real self, not from the disorder, try to break the patterns. Like you are trying to do with your D., you want to have real, consistent, respectful enjoyable connection with her. And thats the task. And for me too, to find healthy, loving ways of relating that don't enable either of these dynamics, even in theier milder forms.
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"I wonder if Alcoholics almost always have a personality disorder".
Does anybody else have any thoughts on this. Is anybody else's Narcissist also a substance abuser of some sorts or is it just my family?
I'm going to end this here because I'm hijacking the thread maybe.
Weird thing is Alcoholics and Narcissists seem to say the same mean spirited type things. Also the alcoholics don't even have to be drunk to say the mean things?
I mean why do they say it? Because they NEED to hurt us? They NEED our self esteem to be low? So they can continue to feel like they are in control..
Self Esteem is such a deep thing right. I went to a class about self-esteem AND it was so topical it didn't really help. Fixing out self-esteem requires like some kind of intense psychic surgery of sorts!!!!! Or I guess at least someone SMART and CAREFUL enough to understand. That is rare, I know I can't begrudge those who do not understand...but also I have to stand up for myself in the face of the ones who don't get it.
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Hi Hops and Boat,
Im goint to try to keep it simple (dont laugh).
For me its a way of understanding the internal dynamics that motivate a person, I was really surprised myself when I learnt this stuff as to how much I began to see people did fall into these basic character types. I see it in highly respected professionals, in anyone really. But most of all, I started by seeing in in myself, then my partners, then my foo, and on. I am also a recovering addict, and Boat, yeah, for me it was exactly that, the addiction was one branch of the underlying disorder. It was a 'character structure' which wasnt really me, but was inside me that kept driving me towards sefl-destruct.
Boat, when I first found out about the dos, I realised why I was constantly falling into the same traps, specailly with others with dos. So one problem with your mum for instance, is if she's operating out of the dos, she's not in contact with you at all, she's in contact with whats inside her head, her own unreality, and she's imposing that vision on you. She's not seeing the daughter who came to take care of her, and whom if she was in reality, she would be full of tenderness and appreciation for, she's projecting her bad feelings inside herself onto you, triggered by the said bana skin, which is now being discussed internationally :shock:
But its so baffling with these people because whilst they're doing it, they're really living in that reality (its called the quadrants), and its easy to get influenced by others when they're in their reality, specially if you're empathic. And althoug its hugely wise to keep things simple, I found that it was vital for me to understand these inner workings before I could even begin to find peace of mind for myself. (thats another story!).
What exactly her dynamic is, not sure, but its like what is inside the constant dramas. For now it seems like the alcoholism is pretty yuk.
As for the literature, Im afraid that at the mo its only in some rather ... umm full-on psychoanalytic literature. But its my ambition to write something that makes this accessible and understandable to people like you and me who need/ want to know. So would you like to help me? !! :)
Ok, a place to start is that one of the books does have diagrams in it which show the basic inner dynamics of the 3 disorders, you can get into the book on Amazon. Its 'The Therapist's Guide to the Personality Disorders', by Masterson and Leiberman. As I say, the language isnt easy, but when I persevered I was able to translate to my own experience.
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Wow, this topic has deviated (which is fine), so I may not have processed everything.
Hops-Sorry that you are feeling bad about the situation with your daughter. I've admired you much on this board as being very empathic, nurturing and caring. With your daughter, I think being calm and positive is bound to give good vibes to the other person. Just having a warm presence and the person knows they can come to you.
My problem in life is being too anxious, negative or defensive, which of course causes people to react similar. Even when I act very sweet and non-threatening to N mom, she has been complying back lately.
I may be at the point in my healing where I might be able to let go of anger and resentment, and just look at the positives in people. Looking at the positives doesn't mean accepting poor treatment, but to stop looking through life with such smudged glasses. There was an excellent article in Healthy Living how life mirrors what we think and how we see people.
I had a bad day today where I put myself in re-victimizing situation, but after several hours of moping...I'm feeling better and am trying to see the beauty in everyone, even if I have to squint!
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Hi Boat,
An interesting read narcissism in a bottle. Yes I have an N friend (w) substance addiction to pills. She would still be N (in recovery) clean. I had the same thoughts and questions as you have. Here's the link
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-tian-dayton/narcissism-in-a-bottle-th_b_249418.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-tian-dayton/narcissism-in-a-bottle-th_b_249418.html)
Hope it helps
Deb
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this is my point. What Dr Tian wrote:
Same with the addict: the needs of those around them have to come second to their meeting their own, often overpowering desire for their next "fix" whether it be a drink, drug, food or sexual encounter. Both the narcissist and the addict are first and foremost self absorbed. They come first.
........ I came accross this all the time in recovery. I can work with that, but it misses some vital truth, that I was addicted to him and the price was feeding everything of me into him. Its just as toxic, but it is the opposite way round, mirror version. These differentials exist amongst addicts too. 2 sides of a relational bargain from hell. But compelling and addictive. And still, all the attention in recovery goes to the N paradigm. In fact the underlying dynamics are so often slightly more complex.
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this is my point. What Dr Tian wrote:
Same with the addict: the needs of those around them have to come second to their meeting their own, often overpowering desire for their next "fix" whether it be a drink, drug, food or sexual encounter. Both the narcissist and the addict are first and foremost self absorbed. They come first.
........ I came accross this all the time in recovery. I can work with that, but it misses some vital truth, that I was addicted to him and the price was feeding everything of me into him. Its just as toxic, but it is the opposite way round, mirror version. These differentials exist amongst addicts too. 2 sides of a relational bargain from hell. But compelling and addictive. And still, all the attention in recovery goes to the N paradigm. In fact the underlying dynamics are so often slightly more complex.
I'm not quite sure which is worse... a sober N, an dry-drunk N, or an intoxicated N whose brain is fried and scrambled on alcohol and/or drugs.
Bones
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Hello,
Just popped in to the board, for some reassurance that I am not alone....
and this thread grabbed me...and this is my reaction :
YES, I know this sentence only too well.
And, it was always said by my NM as she was abusing me, calling it "Love" :
"There is no greater Love on this earth than a Mother's Love for her child."
"There is no greater thing that a child can do than to Give her life for her parent. God will have a special place in Heaven for you, if you do."
Realizing this deviates from the way the thread has gone, I felt I wanted to comment, because this struck a raw nerve with me, as I recognized the sentence, only too well, unfortunately. Big Shudder. Thankfully, I now realize it is all Manipulative Lies, but not before tremendous emotional damage was done.
Sorry, realizing I am almost starting a rant, but truthfully, this is still somewhat raw in my life, because, you see, I believed her............ :(
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I'm not quite sure which is worse... a sober N, an dry-drunk N, or an intoxicated N whose brain is fried and scrambled on alcohol and/or drugs.
Bones
Uhhhggg....feeling dizzy
Now I can clearly see how unclear it really is. God help me.
I never saw it that way before Bones, clearly points out the necessity to somehow not get involved with them too deep.
~~Maybe writing here on the board, ruminating and regurgitating puts psychological space between us and them? What choice do we have, just pushing it out of mind doesnt help, Well maybe sometimes it does but somehow it resurfaces always.
~~Ya know, I'm really struggling with this simplicity vs. Complexity thing. I mean I'm not going to get a PhD in Psychology so I am asking myself just how many layers of "complexity" am I going to entertain, you know the feeling that every end of a string is tied onto another string and pull that one up and then at the bottom of that is another and another. And does this bring us out of the dark and into the light I just don't know.
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From the Dr. Tian Dayton article:
Freud said that we become jealous of the narcissist because they seem to be so pleasantly oblivious to the feelings of accountability to others that the rest of us are plagued by. "Wouldn't it be nice," we think, "to be free of this burden of awareness of the needs and feelings of others and simply ask ourselves one question, what do I want?"
~~Yes, Pleasantly Oblivious is a very good way to put it.
I could read and read explanations until I rot. I mean what useful thing can we do with these explanations?
Sorry, I am just so frustrated because for all the explanations out there, still there is NO good answer.
I just want things to get better, I don't even want to understand anymore. I don't want to pour over complexities.
No wonder people turn to drugs and fantasy because IT NEVER GOES AWAY and THERE IS NO WAY TO FIX IT.
What a lump of garbage they bequeathed to us. I didn't choose this nor did I ask for it!
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I'm not quite sure which is worse... a sober N, an dry-drunk N, or an intoxicated N whose brain is fried and scrambled on alcohol and/or drugs.
Bones
Uhhhggg....feeling dizzy
Now I can clearly see how unclear it really is. God help me.
I never saw it that way before Bones, clearly points out the necessity to somehow not get involved with them too deep.
~~Maybe writing here on the board, ruminating and regurgitating puts psychological space between us and them? What choice do we have, just pushing it out of mind doesn't help, Well maybe sometimes it does but somehow it resurfaces always.
~~Ya know, I'm really struggling with this simplicity vs. Complexity thing. I mean I'm not going to get a PhD in Psychology so I am asking myself just how many layers of "complexity" am I going to entertain, you know the feeling that every end of a string is tied onto another string and pull that one up and then at the bottom of that is another and another. And does this bring us out of the dark and into the light I just don't know.
Sorry about the dizziness. If I was able to spot a warning sign, glad to be able to help.
Bones
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I think some things we can't think our way to the answers to.
(Ironically, I think that.)
I think (again, hah) the solution is in a feeling space.
For me, it's in safe community (for me, the UU church) where I plant the seat of my pants on the seat of the pew or in the seat of a chair in some meeting or other, week after week and year after year, because it reminds me that I am most safe as part of a larger organism...a sort of Gaia view. My drastic individuality and dramatic pain (it's real, but it's dramatic) recedes at least for a couple of experiences a week, when I'm in a group setting (within that overall-safe-for-me community).
It seems to be the thing that settles me down, beyond analysis.
It's not about having an answer as much as it is about having a place.
I don't even care if I'm right. It could be a placebo effect. This sense of being part of something.
It still makes it easier to be a speck on a star...
xo
Hops
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Really Hops, that is quite profound: I think some things we can't think our way to the answers to.
Hops, that is really awesome your church group provides such a sense of wellbeing for you.
Earlier this evening I went to my Buddhist group, sometimes it helps a bit so I go, any little bit that helps I will seek it.
I'm just especially frazzled though so it didn't help a whole lot. I was feeling quite angry when I went. I don't think it gives me the same amount of reassurance as your group does but a lot of that probably has to do with having faith that has been developed over the years.
I'm finding that in my hard-time Buddhism just isn't quite doing it for me for some reason.
Hopefully at some point I will be more settled and have a "place", I can see the value of finding and attending a church regularly.
It's probably especially powerful to be able to go back to the same church year after year because you have plenty of time to get to know people.
I think some things we can't think our way to the answers to.
(Ironically, I think that.)
I think (again, hah) the solution is in a feeling space.
For me, it's in safe community (for me, the UU church) where I plant the seat of my pants on the seat of the pew or in the seat of a chair in some meeting or other, week after week and year after year, because it reminds me that I am most safe as part of a larger organism...a sort of Gaia view. My drastic individuality and dramatic pain (it's real, but it's dramatic) recedes at least for a couple of experiences a week, when I'm in a group setting (within that overall-safe-for-me community).
It seems to be the thing that settles me down, beyond analysis.
It's not about having an answer as much as it is about having a place.
I don't even care if I'm right. It could be a placebo effect. This sense of being part of something.
It still makes it easier to be a speck on a star...
xo
Hops
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Sorry Debkor, The article is a good reference about the subject. Thank you.
I mean yes I do think I have gained more awareness from reading info I guess the main thing is it scares me and disappoints me to know that I can not FIX it and it will not just go away. If one can't FIX it or make anything better then why make the tremendous effort to understand it. Sometimes I just feel left behind in the dust in life and that I will never catch up (or just missing out on life) because of this mess.
Doesn't the non-fixability of these relationships put a person into perpetual and continual and everlasting grief that will not resolve?
I just want to ask God "When is it going to get better"?
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Boat, sometimes you just need to go smell the Christmas trees or sit in the sun and feel the breeze on your face. A "time-out" from trying to "figure it all out". Go pretend all this crap doesn't exist - just for 10 minutes or so. It'll help the dizziness.
Here's the thing: you are right. You can't fix the the Ns; you can't fix the relationships. I'd like to stop wars and redesign how Congress works - but I can't. What we can fix - is US. I think it's sort the last, lowest N-trick - that we spend so much time trying to understand them (not possible) - that we put off the stuff we can fix, about our selves.
Yes, it helps to do the research, the reading... to try to understand the he said/she said drama & dynamics. It's not the answer.
Yes, it helps to have a place like Hops does - or your Buddhist group - just a community to BElong in. It's not a substitute.
Yes, it helps to move the work to the "feeling" self sometimes... I believe it can "think" too - but in emotional "words"... and get out of our heads sometimes. We need both - thinking & feeling - to work creatively, collaboratively, in the same direction together... so that we're not constantly pulled in 2 directions at once.
River's "Self in Exile" explanation makes sense to me... but I have to try to put my understanding into my words and terminology. And the one thing I have to remind myself of, a lot - it that it's not an on/off state - is/isn't. It's a continuum... so that, at any given moment I can be more/less - to some degree - my whole self. And I think this is true of everyone - and I mean absolutely everyone who's not certifiable, all the time.
As to addictions & N - my Nmom doesn't even drink coffee or tea. The only thing she's really addicted to is projection of parts of herself (that she can't stand and may very well be delusional) onto people around her, people that's she's already made crazy with gaslighting, frustration, and never being satisfied. Then, they get to be the REASON (blame) for why she's unhappy. (repeat ad nauseum) It's not possible - at all - to make her aware that she does this; that's how deep her denial is.
The only solution for me, is to focus on something other than her 'coz I don't understand "crazy" - focus on the people around me now; the me I am now - in other words, STEP AWAY FROM THE NUTJOB!! Breathe some fresh air. Just BE.
OnlyMe - hello! We can change what we believe, thankfully! I used to believe I was going marry one of the Monkees, too. LOL!!! It's so "wrong" in the natural order of things... to tell a child they're expected to give their life for the parent. Doesn't get much more N than that, does it?
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Doesn't the non-fixability of these relationships put a person into perpetual and continual and everlasting grief that will not resolve?
Oh, Boat. I understand this question. From my heart cells.
A friend of mine who has been homeless is in a major crisis (to update on another thread)...and his sister wrote that a woman she knows who directs a program said that her accumulative impression is that most homeless people are very gentle souls, who in many ways are too gentle for this world. (That didn't accomodate the pure-bad-luck and this-cursed-economy factors). But it struck me as an insight. (And I would say cruel culture, rather than world...because we CAN make it different.)
For me, the community answer is not so much the group doing anything to me, but me repeatedly RE-deciding that this is how I will interpret my life in that community. Once I figured out that to belong to the human community in one positive setting was as important to my survival as protein (this was actually a surprise, but interviewing Alan Luks years ago, and the research on altruism, I began to see it)--I just began to look at sticking with it. It could've been Quaker, Buddhist, or a community garden group, or art group, or whatever...for me it fits to be in a religious community that embraces very diverse beliefs, including my agnosticism). Anyway I began to look at the repetition of the behavior of going and showing up as something I:
1) have do to to have a chance at wellness (I lived as an outsider as a poet and writing is hermetic anyway, I had to do this for balance)
2) continue to do because it does divert me from that Great Grief
I think the Great Grief is true and real and I have been near-destroyed by it before.
Tossing my lot in with this particular community is my only chance of exposing myself, regularly, to words and notions and companionship that, some of the time, remind me there may also be Great Love.
(Being agnostic, I'll never prove whether that's true or not. But I will repetitively expose myself to the possibility that it might be, or the despair engulfs me.)
The only think I can do, in community life or in my own struggle, is to keep presenting the vibrant Great Grief...with episodes of love, service (which I do precious little of), and beauty.
I think I can handle the Great Grief better than I can Great Fear.
Another thing I think about when I'm going through repetitive heartbreak is that really, maybe the best goal I can have is to keep my eye on the much older people in my congregation who seem to have a lot of serenity. Normally, it's those who have simply settled into a repetitive life of living simply for themselves, and spending a lot of time in service. Whatever's empty after survival is met, I think I'll put there. And though I'm unhappy now, maybe in 10 years, when I'm 71, I'll find myself more like them. (And if I'm wrong and I'm still crawling on the floor pushing my wailing heart along ahead of me, I know most folks there will be kind enough to pick me up and haul me off to a potluck.)
I also remember the look on my father's face when he died, which was a blast of wonder. So I figure right or wrong, correct or confused, I can go the same place he did.
love to you,
Hops
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Thanks for the heartfelt words and understanding. (((Hops))) & (((Phoenix))) It feels good just to know that somebody "gets it".
Slowly but surely I think my referral to speak with a counselor is being processed finally, keeping my fingers crossed.
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Boat, I need to tag along with Hops' post... explain something I ran across. I hope it makes some sense.
You know the theory of Tao. For everything that exists - it's opposite also exists.
In the midst of facing my own "great grief" - whether that's conceived as a personal despair that can't be let go, or the "collective consciousness" version of humanity's collective "great grief"....
by some stroke of luck, fate or just wishing a huge gaping, yearning wish... I began to be aware of the "great comfort" that exists to equal the "great grief". It's pretty REAL to me, and even though I realize it's really hard to communicate an actual feeling or awareness to another being... I would sincerely like to be able to point people in that direction to find it themselves. I don't really know how to do that.
I only know, that once I began to feel the grief itself (not thoughts about it, shoulds/shouldn't, anything at all structured or process-based)... let myself into that locked room of wailing, temper-tantrum kicking & screaming, overwhelming sadness & chaos, wiping snot on my sleeve - or not even able to do that - kind of total consciousness FEELING... that great comfort started to tap me on the shoulder, try to gently get my attention, and then it held me.... till the tears slowly dried up; sniff! I was completely alone - well, OK... I had kitties and my empath golden retreiver too... but I think some people might want to have another person physically present for this. Insurance or whatever. I know I always feel safest when I'm totally alone so that worked for me. Safety is important.
Anyway, repeated "treatment" sessions like this, helped me realize that the comfort and the grief actually contain each other. We're sad because we care for one we've lost (or never had). If we didn't care... we also wouldn't feel that grief. The fact that this level of caring exists in the world (even if I'm just one wacky, warped person) is a miracle of oppositeness to the old "normal" of negativity, struggle, not understanding what was "wrong" with me. It means to me, that I'm a "whole" person... I can feel both opposites... even simultaneously... and what I didn't have matters LESS to me, than knowing that I'm just a normal person, reacting in a normal way to my own personal tragedy... and I literally felt as if a 16 ton anvil had been lifted off of me. Like I had to pay attention, to keep my feet on the ground!
And something else happened. Like Hops' community of mutual support... I started having these out of the blue, experiences of plain, simple human kindness being offered to me. And it felt good to offer these, myself. (Awkward at first; too...I didn't have a lot of practice or skills.) At first, these experiences brought more tears... but then it started to seem more normal. And the world seemed to have gone from a fuzzy, dim, old black & white movie... to breathtaking technicolor. (maybe I couldn't see that stuff before, trapped under my grief??)
I sure hope you find your way to that pretty soon! You deserve it... we all do.