Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lucky on November 24, 2011, 03:37:20 AM
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Sorry, haven't been on the board for quite a while but it is a bit of an emergency now.
What I have been fearing for years would ever happen is happening now.
My father has cancer I was told on Monday and my mother is a N. I could do with some advice please how to handle this.
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Hi Lucky...
You didn't say specifically what you need help with. Is your Nmom being a pain? Are you sad & worried about your Dad? I'm afraid I don't know enough of your "story" to know how this new situation impacts you, though I do get that the news about your Dad is probably upsetting.
Can you help out with some explanations about the situation? I'm gonna be around all weekend.
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Hello PhoenixRising,
In the past I have read writings from people that were in the same situation and they said the N used the situation for whatever it was worth. So that made me a bit fearful. The lack of empathy, the guilt tripping, the manipulation, causing turmoil and frustration, you name it.
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Yeah, Ns are famous for that because - my guess only - they're jealous that they've lost the spotlight to the ill person. It's amazing what rediculous lengths they'll go to, to get it back, too.
All that aside, maybe it's best to just wait for something to happen and then figure out what's best for you in the situation. There's no set pattern to predict what you might face. So, my advice would be to focus on yourself - how you feel about everything, what kinds of things you need right now... and what you can/want to do for your Dad. Take care of what you can take of. That way, IF your Nmom gets up to tricks... you'll already have done the "homework" and won't have to do that at the same time as dealing with the impact of any hijinks.
Other folks here, really do have "war stories" to share on this topic. They'll be along, I'm sure. I don't have that experience. I just wanted to let you know I was out here listening.
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My father is sick and my mother is a Narcissist. They are divorced but there is a manipulative family nag flow still regardless of the divorce because my alcoholic brother is "taking care" of my father. Brother talks to mother and mother talks to me. My brother wants me to take over his position...and my mother is going to help my brother buy a house and move away from father...
The only thing I can really say is I ran to get therapy. RAN and left some shoe rubber on the ground. Ran like my rear was on fire. Total fire engine sirens are going off...I'm feeling whoooaaa.......my little self is ANTICIPATING total engulfment and pressure in the form of sadistic guilt put on me. But did any of my relatives respond to me when I need help....not really.
I have been resistant to therapy because I've done a lot of it but now this is a new episode of the ever unfolding soap opera.
Even in a healthy family situation where there is a death often people need some support...Quadrupled so I think when the dynamic is strange and includes a personality disorder going on or whatever other complications that prevent mutual concern and normal sharing of responsibilities etc., processing of emotions. That is a big thing I think is death is a huge emotional event for a lot of people and a Nar person makes it hard to grieve normally IMO.
I don't really know what your family dynamics are but I realized I NEEDED SUPPORT AND HELP emotionally from a professional.
Dynamics unfold slowly over time but there is a predictability to it. I know what they are going to do, I know what they expect me to do....If I don't do what they expect me to do they will punish me. That is part of a bad relationship, people can't discus and work with and negotiate expectations.
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My N mother always comes up with some sick event to counter whatever other situation is going on.
It always seems really justified though. I think she basically blows things out of proportion.
When both my mother and brother were stressing me out telling my father was dying and putting the GUILT on to the point where I just started crying uncontrollably...at the same time when I tried to discuss any of that with my mother she would...talk about her husband's daughter having a bladder biopsy that turned out to be nothing at all. My mother got a huge amount of attention when she had to have a biopsy that almost always turns out negative...and it was negative...but man did she milk it for months. I clarified what the doctors and nurses had actually said to her and realized that it was a very low risk situation but she created a story out of it that somehow drew attention from her husband's family, her still living parent's, her brother and her sister, her co-workers. There were family celebration dinners to rejoice that she wasn't really sick. The world will rally around her if she even has a ingrown butt hair for god's sake.
I don't really know how your situation is going to unfold or how your parents interact with each other but mostly I would say if She really is a Narcissist you can probably expect some form of acting up to occur.
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Thank you PhoenixRising and Boat that Rocks for your support!
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We have heard now that the cancer has already spread to my father's back and belly.
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I'm sorry, Lucky.
Remind me: are you close and on good terms with your Dad? How are you feeling about this? Are you geographically close and able to - if you want to - visit?
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Lucky, I'm really sorry.
My advice is, if you love your Dad and want to connect with him, do what you can to be there for him and communicate that love to him directly.
NOT through your mother, or messages, etc.
If you're at a distance, you can still find creative ways to send those direct messages. (At times I would order something for my Dad with my own message/note/gift...so there was no way for my mother to hijack my communication and make it about her.)
When you're focused on your own feelings of love and grief, and being present to him and to yourself...if you can possibly look at her the way you would annoying weather, but keep your eyes on the prize (being present to yourself, and to him)...that may help.
She IS just annoying weather. Way more sound and wind than substance, and fated to blow over.
You're sturdy. She cannot blow you over. Love is bigger than fear.
Just love yourself, love your father if you do...and respond out of that place.
(Loving yourself means not letting your mother make it All About Her.) You can be compassionate
but protect yourself at the same time.
love to you,
Hops
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My father has always been kind and patient and rather complient to my mother. Yes, I do love him. Thank you for your help!
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Hi Lucky. I'm very sorry to hear about your father's illness.
The others are absolutely correct in saying that Ns will go to ridiculous lengths to divert attention back to them. My sister was diagnosed with breast cancer about four years ago and went through a really rough time of it (and still is). My NM tried to downplay her illness, and when that didn't work, she "got cancer" herself, telling everyone that she had an inoperable tumor and only four weeks to live. It's been over three years, and she's still telling people that she has four weeks to live. She has no compassion towards her own daughter for being sick. Instead, she's jealous of her for getting cancer because cancer = attention.
Be prepared for your NM to create some major drama. The best thing you can do is try to ignore the theatrics and just be there for your father. It's difficult at best when an N is coming between you and another family member, let alone one who is sick. If your NM is the one giving you updates on your father's condition, try to verify it. Ns will embellish their own illnesses and downplay everyone else's. You won't get the truth from her. I wish you all the best is getting through this and will keep you in my thoughts as you go through this difficult time. Hang in there.
Kathy
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Hello Kathy,
What you are telling about your mother and sister is really bad, how can a mother behave that way towards her daughter, it is really disgusting.
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What you are telling about your mother and sister is really bad, how can a mother behave that way towards her daughter, it is really disgusting.
That's what Ns are .... disgusting. Their behavior towards family is deplorable, especially family in need. I have heard many many stories of N mothers trying to take the spotlight away from a sick or dying family member. They are completely devoid of compassion. It's all about THEM.
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That's what Ns are .... disgusting. Their behavior towards family is deplorable, especially family in need. I have heard many many stories of N mothers trying to take the spotlight away from a sick or dying family member. They are completely devoid of compassion. It's all about THEM.
Agreed Kathy. They have no compassion. They are only aware of what affects them, how they feel. Nasty stuff.
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Hi Lucky,
I had a different situation, my NF had terminal cancer and I had a NM as well.
In your situation, I would follow a lot of what is said here.
Focus on you and your health, and the health of your immediate family as a priority (partner/children if this is the case). From what you have written, it sounds to me like your father is the last person who would want you or yours to suffer for him?
Focus on what you want to give your father and what you want to remember as your last days with your father if he is terminal. (I am so sorry if this hurts or sounds harsh – I was in such denial when my father died, I couldn’t focus on what was happening let alone what came after – not that you are there, just my experience.)
You decide how you want this time with your father to go, and don’t let anything interfere with that.
To borrow Hopsy’s analogy, imagine your mother as a gale-force wind that you have the strength to stand tall in (and you do) while that wind splits harmlessly to either side of you.
IME, ignore her as best you can; if you can’t just say “OK M.”
I’ve found it takes the steam out of them because in their mind you are agreeing with them.
Even if we don’t agree – ultimately it gives her what she wants without compromising yourself, and hopefully, the situation won’t escalate into something you may not have the energy to deal with right now.
IME, if in her mind, you are ambivalent to her need, she will come back for more; if you directly argue, she will become voraciously addicted to you and come back for much, much more.
If you give her the guise of agreeing, she will leave you alone (that was my experience in dealing with Ns until I went NC, even though it doesn’t feel honest to say “OK” because everything is not OK – and that is how I felt – it got them off my back – and I needed that – the situation was so stressful in and of itself – dealing with an N on top of it – no words!).
If you need to, throw her an OK bone that gets her away from you (I have found it is the best you can do with dealing with an N if you don’t want them to go nuclear – unless you go NC – and even then they can go nuclear!)
One exception to this, if your NM becomes dangerous to you/yours or your father (and I had this happen when my father was dying); then, unfortunately, it is time to step up and handle it as best you can.
She is nothing more than a palm-full of sand that when your fingers open, she falls through.
If she is anything like my parents, this time will become her time.
It is not her time.
It is yours and your relationship with your father.
I am so sorry. I know how difficult it is when one we love has terminal cancer.
Much, much love and strength to you,
Peace
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I hope my mother will take real good care of my father and does not complain too much to guilt trip my father. It must be horrible to be so ill and have your partner make you feel guilty because of it.
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Lucky, you just scared the crap out of me! If your mom is doing this... and even if you think your mom will do this to your Dad... do him and yourself a favor: call Hospice and see if you can set up regular visits.
Hospice has seen & heard just about everything. They can begin working with your Dad - you - and even your Mom, before the very end. The advantage here, is that being an impartial 3rd party - your mom will have to be on her best behavior, and it keeps you just that much more out of conflict with Nmom.
Good luck, hon!! If your mom questions you about why you called them, just tell her the goal of Hospice is to help everyone - including her - by providing moral support.
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Lucky
one thing: if you are able, see what your Dad wants, how he copes with his illness, how he reacts to your mother, what he needs and if you can, help him by trying to arrange what he wants.
By that I mean this: your mother may behave in ways which make you feel angry/hurt/upset on your Dad's behalf. BUT what matters to your Dad is how he feels. He may not feel guilty (you may think he does, but he may be playing to your mother?).
Trust your heart too.
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PR – excellent advice!
We called in hospice, and it was a 3rd party to whom my mother could not play her games.
The hospice person was wonderful.
I can’t even remotely express how grateful I was to have her there.
She was there 24/7 if we needed her.
And we needed her.
Love,
Peace
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PR – excellent advice!
We called in hospice, and it was a 3rd party to whom my mother could not play her games.
The hospice person was wonderful.
I can’t even remotely express how grateful I was to have her there.
She was there 24/7 if we needed her.
And we needed her.
Love,
Peace
(((((((((((((((Peace)))))))))))))))))))))
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We are a one and a half / one and three quarters of an hour drive away. How to dealt with that? My husband and I have very busy lives but ofcourse I want to stay on top of things.
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I think you figure out the visit interval that works for you.
I remember when my father was dying I left one city at around 3pm each Friday (got permission from an employer who had his values in), arrived here around 730, stayed up all night with him (Hospice didn't come on weekends), caught a nap the next day, stayed up all the next night, returned to the city late Sunday...and kept that up for six months. Worked nearly the equivalent of 2 FT jobs during the week for the whole time.
It was GRUELING. But I have never regretted one moment of it.
(And my mother did not interfere with my farewell care of him. She was sidelined by an osteoporotic fracture.)
You might find that a visit once a month where you are able to really concentrate on being present with him, will do the same.
Hops
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Hi Licky,
I lived about 45 min - 1 hour away, and made myself ill trying to keep up and be there for him.
To quote hopsy:
It was GRUELING. But I have never regretted one moment of it.
It is hard. I think the best thing might be to try and find a balance as best you can without making yourself ill or neglecting your needs - if you can.
In our case hospice did come on the weekends, but he was very ill at that point.
Much love to you,
Peace
PS - Bones, thank you so much for the hugs ((((((((((((((((((Bones)))))))))))))))))))
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Hi Licky,
I lived about 45 min - 1 hour away, and made myself ill trying to keep up and be there for him.
To quote hopsy:
It was GRUELING. But I have never regretted one moment of it.
It is hard. I think the best thing might be to try and find a balance as best you can without making yourself ill or neglecting your needs - if you can.
In our case hospice did come on the weekends, but he was very ill at that point.
Much love to you,
Peace
PS - Bones, thank you so much for the hugs ((((((((((((((((((Bones)))))))))))))))))))
You're welcome, ((((((((((((((((((Peace)))))))))))))))))))
Bones
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I agree with TT...if you step up to the point that you endanger your own health, that's no solution.
I sort of did (push myself past the healthy point), but I was driven by something else, too...
I had always yearned to be closer to my Dad but my Nmother's reflexive:
--jealousy (part of her Nism), and
--desire to keep us apart (unconscious but completely misplaced protectiveness--belatedly I understood it was because her own father was not trustworthy with daughters)
...had been successful. My Dad was a self-effacing man who would never have "stood up to" my mother to demand more time or more of a relationship with me. He wasn't that attuned to why she was so interfering and dominating. I felt grief and frustration at times over his distance (though I always knew he loved me).
So at the close of his life, being able to spend that time with him and make such a difference (and her, too) ... was very healing for me. It also solidified me as an adult in my own eyes. And gave me comfort afterward, knowing I had treated them as I believed.
Sorry to hijack, Lucky...keep posting about your own situation.
Every one is unique.
Hops
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My father's condition is deteriorating and I feel terrible about it. Is it so that for "us" a very ill / terminal parent is worse than it is for others? Other people are acting a bit like it is the most normal thing and that one should really not be so upset about it. That is the impression I am getting anyway.
My hair has started to fall out like crazy again because of the stress.
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Aww, Lucky.
Of course you're not weird to feel so intensely about this.
You are facing a loss, and of the one parent who DID show you love, right?
That's a powerful loss. You will survive it, but you will feel its power.
I wonder if the stress you feel is wired to a part of you that feels you
ought to be able to FIX everything. Or if you're gripped by the fear of
the loss that is coming. It's the loss of control...?
We know death is inevitable, but maybe daughters of Nish mothers
feel not "normally" abandoned by the other (kinder) parent's death,
but terrifyingly abandoned. So reacting however you react, makes
perfect sense. Nobody else's business to judge it.
I do recommend one book to you, strongly. A sweet and easy
read that literally can help you profoundly. When Things Fall Apart
by Pema Chodron.
Keep on posting, vent that stress and fear here...it will help.
You have inner calm and inner strengths you haven't discovered.
(And...it doesn't matter what other people think, or what remarks
they make. You are entitled to your own experience and your own
feelings and your own reality. You may want to change your own
reality to help yourself feel better...and that's good. But not to
be more like others--to be more like your stronger self.)
love and comfort,
Hops
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Yes, my father has always been the softer, more patient en kinder parent. The more sensitive one with regard to an other's feelings.
That might be the reason yes why this is affecting me much.
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Thank you for your support Hopalong and Teartracks.
Maybe it is a bit of a control thing but is it not normal that one does not want to lose someone your love? Especially not in such a horrid way (wasting away, a lot of pain).
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Also the fourth and last year of my studies just started :shock:. I work fulltime and my father is getting worse and I will have to write my thesis all at the same time :(.
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My father has a crooked leg and a few days ago it was looked at. It appears his leg is broken and he has been going up and down the stairs with it :shock:! It can not be treated in any way because the leg had already been given radiation treatment :cry:. It looks like he will soon end up in a weelchair.
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Lucky, what a sad development.
It's really hurting your heart to see your Dad suffer this.
The last chapter of life can be such a tough one.
I'm very sorry.
One wee piece of advice. For my D, her stepmother was
dying of cancer while my D was in the last stretch of her graduate degree.
I pleaded with her to focus on her studies even while this
sad event was unspooling, and not let it derail her completely from
her goal.
She did let it. And will regret it forever. Now, it's unlikely that
she'll ever complete that degree for which she got so deeply in
debt, and around which she had built so many hopes.
I believe your father would want, most of all, for you to do
what is best for your own long life, right now. So ... I hope
you will find a way to focus intensely on your work, while it
is necessary to. When you're visiting him, you can be fully
present. But otherwise, this truly is a time to compartmentalize.
He would wish that for you, I would bet a lot.
love,
Hops
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Dear Hops,
Thank you for your kind response. I am trying hard to stay focused on my studies but have asked the college what will happen if I really need to focus on my dad and they told me that a little delay because of my father will be accepted. Also the HR people from the company I work for and that is paying for my education tell me the same. So that is a relief. However I would like it if my father would still be alive when I get my diploma. He is very proud of me studying.
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He's TOTALLY proud of you!
And maybe pushing on through would be a great gift to him.
If you can't, though, just remember that grief can derail you
too. (You're not my D, I should remember. But she pushed
herself to the breaking point and beyond, and has never
been able to re-start.)
Worry but understand,
Hops
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May I ask you what precisely happened with your daughter? Did she suffer from a burnout?
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Oof. Loooooooong story, Lucky, mostly covered on my thread called "Mothering Again..." (with ellipses).
Nutshell: She did break down. Had to do with wobbly mental health in the first place (bipolar, ADD, plus mild Asperger's) that in combo with the emotional stress of her stepmom's slow and bloody horrible decline, plus her cat's death, along with my D's inability to multi-task (painful reunions with long-lost but unappreciative siblings from her Dad's other marriages, were also part of the dynamic) -- added up to her: mental cracking, eviction, meltdown, collapse at the tail end of her M.A. program, and overall personal disaster. That she's still trying to heal from. Meanwhile, she has completely estranged herself from me and I haven't heard her voice in 2.5 years.
And I can't fix it. I don't want to re-open that vein just now (for my own mental health) but you're welcome to read my old threads about her.
Hops
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Okay, so there was much more going on apart from the death of her father and having to study at the same time. Thank you for telling me what happened.
I am sorry that you have not heard her voice for such a long time. But as you say, it probably is better for your mental health.
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Hi Lucky,
You're welcome, and thanks for caring.
Noooooooo--it isn't hearing her voice that would be bad for my mental health!
It's that the grief I feel over NOT hearing her voice is so painful that I am
trying not to think about her.
Hops
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I am sorry I misunderstood you Hopalong. I am sorry for your pain.
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No apology needed, Lucky!
Thanks for your compassion.
hugs
Hops
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Lucky,
How are you? How is your dad? I just went through the same exact situation. I called my dad every day and I went to see him. It was so hard when he died. Please talk to him as much as you can now - even calls or whatever he is up for.
Sending you so much love. I am glad your dad has you to love him while he is sick. I wrote my dad a letter a few weeks before he died to tell him about many things - he started wanting to apologize and change near the end and I wanted him to know I always loved him. Maybe you can write your dad a letter? Relive some memories with him. He will love that.
Love,
Beth
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My father is in hospital now. On Wedsnesday the pain became unbareble. I love him so much and I am feeling so much pain because of his suffering. I will do whatever I can to see him and let him now that I love him and care about him. It is so horrible to see him suffer and deteriorate. I am so sad about it.
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Lucky, I know how hard it is. Please write to me any time. My personal email is elizgomez@hotmail.com. There is no way to prepare yourself - it's so hard. Like you said, just spend as much time with him as you can now and let him know how much you love him. How is he doing? Is he ok with going? For me, the hardest part was that my dad was not ready to die. He was scared. I want so badly to make things different. I so wish I could have helped him in some way.
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After the terrible pain he suffered Wednesday, I think he does not mind going any more. He said he does not want to suffer more of that kind of pain again. He is however all the time worried about my mother.
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My dad worried about my mother too. It made me mad that she still had to be the focus. I know he realized more what she was at the end, but he couldn't quite let go of his false idea of her. How are you doing? Are you ok?
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My father was able to let go soon after i promised him I would always take good care of NMom.
I could feel his relief and his release.
No way his 50 years of loyalty to her were going to evaporate, and I honored him by that promise.
Hard as it was, I'm glad I kept it.
Hops
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My father was suffering from delerium these last days and therefore was not aware of a lot of things. He had an infection, suffered a lot of pain and is being given quite a lot of morphine. That is what caused him to be very confused. My mother seemed to miss being his focus of attention but I must say that she is not behaving too badly. She is actually surprising me how well she is behaving. Compared to what I am used to.
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To be honest, I am starting to doubt if my mother really is behaving so well... My eyes are opening and I am starting to see someone who is mostly concerned with her own wellbeing.
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How is your dad doing? Are you able to be with him?
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(((((((((((Lucky)))))))))))))
I'm thinking of you as you gently let your Dad go...
I'm sorry your mother adds stress to this event.
But he's at the threshold, and nothing she is or does
can alter the energy or love you choose to give him.
There'll be plenty of time later to assess her "performance."
All that matters now is you being present to him and as
minimally distracted by her as you can manage.
I'm sorry you're all going through this, and wish your Dad
a peaceful, pain-controlled departure, as soon as nature lets
him go....
love to you,
Hops
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My sister and I have seen my dad today. But of course my mother has to be center stage and my father is trying to give it to her although he is extremely tired. My mother told us that he even offered her his apologies because he fell asleep while she was visiting him in hospital yesterday. He is well trained to make her the center of attention at all times. She even told my sister a few days ago that he likes to see her most of all. My sister felt as if we are no longer welcome to come and visit him. My sister and I have the feeling that she rather not have him home again because she would mess with her easy and comfortable life she is having at the moment. My father really would like to go home but my mother is making up all kinds of excuses why it would not be a good idea.
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Yesterday my father came home (trial for two days to see how it would go) and today my mother told me that he does not want to live any longer. He was looking forward to going home and the days after he came home he wants to die. I was with my parents yesterday and i did not hear him say this. He said he was happy to be home. He is not in terrible pain but he is very fatigued and weak. All the time during his illness he has been feeling guilty towards my mother that he was causing her extra work.
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Oh Lucky,
I am so sorry. I am wishing you some peace and your dad a lot of love.
Beth
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My father came home on the 14th of December and he stayed home. We (my mother and sister and I) have been taking care of him with the help of others. I do not think my dad has much longer to live. However my mother is getting fed up with taking care of my father. She is fed up with staying in the house all the time.
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Perhaps you could persuade one of the outside helpers to tell your mother, very seriously, that it is a medical recommendation for her that she take a two-hour break away from the house at least once a day....
I am glad you are with him, Lucky. He is lucky you are there.
love
Hops
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The problem is that my parents are a 1 hour 40 minutes drive away from where I live and I work fulltime. So I can not be there with them as much as I would like to. My father is bed ridden and taking care of him is quite a lot of work. Even though there is a night nurse during the night and twice a day people come to wash my father and change his clothes and regularly change the bed linnen. The moments I am with them it is very rewarding because my father is very grateful for the help and my mother has time to have a shower upstairs and go shopping. My father can not be left alone for longer than a quarter of an hour. He suffers from delirium / confusion.
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My dad died on the 1st of March. Before his death my mother was badmouthing my dad and she is still doing it! It hurts me very much that she can not say nice things about him, he was such a kind man!
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My dad died on the 1st of March. Before his death my mother was badmouthing my dad and she is still doing it! It hurts me very much that she can not say nice things about him, he was such a kind man!
(((((((((((((((((((((((Lucky)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Lucky,
I'm so sorry for your loss.
But very glad you could be close to him during this chapter of his life.
You clearly take after your father...
and that you'll always keep.
with love,
Hops
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Thank you for your support Bones and Hopalong. I am still grieving very much, for the suffering and deterioration my dad had to suffer and because I miss him very much.
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My mother asked me why I am still having problems sleeping. I am still mourning my dad but my mother tells me I do not have to worry about him any more. I am getting the impression that she feels great. She also told me that my dad and her had thought that I did not pay them enough attention when my dad's illness was not so grave yet. I can not believe my dad really said or thought that.
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My mother asked me why I am still having problems sleeping. I am still mourning my dad but my mother tells me I do not have to worry about him any more. I am getting the impression that she feels great. She also told me that my dad and her had thought that I did not pay them enough attention when my dad's illness was not so grave yet. I can not believe my dad really said or thought that.
I doubt very much that your Dad really said or thought that. This sounds like typical Narcissistic crap coming out of the mouth of the birth-unit. GRRRRRR!!!!!!!
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Hi Lucky,
I hate it that your insensitive mother (kind of a guilt-tripping bully)
adds to your pain.
Have you thought of attending a bereavement support group?
They're free, most hospice organizations have them ongoing,
and I've heard they can be a HUGE comfort and help.
xo
Hops
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Thank you very much Bones and Hopalong. Narcissists always like to trample on you while you are down. When they smell blood they go in for the kill.
My employee is going to pay for a psychologist for me to go to because I talked to the health and safety person and said I am not feeling very well. My appointment for the intake is on the 30th of April.