Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sKePTiKal on November 26, 2011, 09:45:26 AM
-
Bones & Boat...
This one topic deserves it's own thread, I think. Just talking to each other about this, we're getting closer to understanding it - at least, I hope there's some understanding possible! It doesn't really fit with ironing, makeup, lampshades & mops - LOL... even tho it's one of those BIG "mama never told me" things.
I mean does intimacy or romance or even love or whatever..put us into these hazes of psychological tornado storms? That's what it feels and sounds like to me.
Exactly. My warning sirens go off... the troops start running for battle stations... I load up the cannons... and then "I" go run & hide in the safest, most protected place I can find! LOL... in some ways it's completely hilarious what a ball of cluster-tangled and completely contradictory thoughts & feelings I become. And yet, I feel like it's a very serious problem for me. I just flat out, simply, don't feel comfortable. 11 years of marriage, notwithstanding. (and lots of other relationships and 2 ex-husbands, too) It's much easier for me to flirt with a complete stranger - no expectations, no promises, no obligations = no RISK either. I can and have, just walked away when it suited me or things took a more serious turn.
So, maybe for me it's a control & boundary issue. That level of intimacy triggers all the self-defense reactions I created to fend off my Nmom's intrusions across my identity boundaries... and my fear is simply that I'll "lose my turn" - my right - to even have boundaries within the situation and relationship; I'll be totally powerless and persona non grata again. Add to that, being a rape survivor who did fight back and lost; but survived... and well, I can't really blame my Self for still being freaked out. Even though I rationally KNOW, without a doubt, that a.) hubs will never intentionally hurt me and that b.) he's most accomodating to my expressed needs/desires/limits. Too many times I don't speak up -- and I'm kicking myself for not doing so (he can't read my mind) and sometimes, speaking up just makes things even worse -- because now he's self-conscious and walking on eggshells... he doesn't know how we "play" together, either nor what will trigger my pulling back.
When I think of trying to explain what flirting is... I think of Lauren Bacall, in one of the Humphrey Bogart movies when she pauses at the door to his private eye office and says, If you need me, just whistle... you know how to whistle don't you? Just put your lips together and blow. The interpretation is open to definition. Double entendres fall into this category. Verbal jousting; witty repartee; outrageous presumptions and conclusions - none of them meant to be taken seriously. Plain silliness and fun... NOT necessarily with a sexual subtext, mind you. Flirting can exist outside of that - but then, I guess that causes a lot of misunderstandings, too.
You're right - little kids DO flirt! It's completely innocent, non-sexual, and totally mirthful; joyful. It's interpersonal play. My 3 yr old grandson is a total flirt and has been known to charm waitresses into extra dessert. He has absolutely no expectation of nor experience of his overtures being rejected. He is only just being himself - fully - having fun, and communicating that to other people. If there is a result he's looking for - it's laughter, love, acceptance - and that's what he's been taught comes of being himself in this way. (Note that his parents do a great job of explaining which behaviors aren't allowed without squashing his sense of love & acceptance for himself, too.) I learn an awful lot about what I missed out on, watching him interact with his parents... and at some level, I know he knows it. He's not completely sure of me; comfortable with me and I give him plenty of space about that.
I keep hoping this is just a phase for me. I mean, learning about boundaries I tended to go overboard about defining and enforcing them. Too strong; too rigid boundaries. Hubs pointed out one day, that even strong fences have gates in them when we were talking about it. We invite in people that we like and trust... and the gate swings both ways... one can still be "safe" outside of the boundaries, too. Since then, I've been able to relax having overnight guests - whole families - stay at my house. Maybe not relaxed enough yet... but way better than before. I'm able to go out socially, be myself and have fun, without the old defensivwe (and self-harm) strategies automatically kicking in.
One more item about this... that I've been kind of dancing around in my own thinking about this: obviously, being married... there is an "us"... and also a Hubs and Amber, as separate people. How do people figure out how much individual time vs "us" time works for them?? What can we do, if I need more me time than he does... and he needs more "us" time than I do?? That might be a digression; might not - since I think it still falls into the boundary category... boundaries in relationships.
So... that's what I've been thinking around this topic. The kicker is: I don't think I can "answer" these questions all by myself... my way. There's sort of a collective, social "understanding" or agreement about flirting... what's acceptable, when, how... just like we have these built-in mental constructs of what being married is like, who does/is what, those kinds of things. Boat - I know that feeling of... sensing... that other people are judging you when you having a little flirt, or fun... it's kinda like how I feel guilty for getting some big tasks off my to-do list -- a ghost from the past. How to banish it? Bones... I understand not being able to read other people's intentions correctly. I'm not Aspie, but I know that when triggered... I'm not feeling at all safe in my own skin... and that completely changes how I interpret other people's comments and body language. This whole topic is a quagmire of uncertainties for me. Go figure.
-
Thanks, P.R.
For me, unfortunately, some ugly memories of ugly comments from the NWomb-Donor, have come to the surface. From my perspective, she used children and their innocent flirtations to exploit them all for her own selfish ends and attempted to justify it with one of the most HIDEOUS comments that a pervert could invent! GOD, how I HATE that monster for that!
Bones
-
Bones, m'dear...
I know. I've resisted commenting on some of the stuff you've written about your mom - and even getting into this topic on my own, for myself. What you've written - what you were put through - makes me uncommonly, deeply angry. Flat out - your mom was a criminal... and in today's society, she surely would've been arrested and locked away for life. The things you've shared - well, it doesn't bring out the nicest, mature sides of me either!!
I'm sorry for the awful memories and if it's too much - protect yourself first, OK? My feelings won't be hurt.
-
PR, we must be o nline at th same time! I just wrote a long post about flirting in the other thread, apparetly while you were writing this thread! :lol:
-
For me--banter without vamping (Lord knows it can't help to compare myself to a movie sireeen) and being full of good spirits is what helps me connect.
When I'm feeling happy in myself, it just makes it easy to enjoy others.
I really do love meeting people, males included. I find that strong curiosity about other people helps me override my own fears of intimacy.
When I think we're just "swapping stories" and let myself enjoy how human that all is...I lose some of the fear.
Plus which, after my brother, nearly every male I meet seems wonderful.
(This from somebody who can't manage to find time to date...even the nice geezers who do write me.)
xo
Hops
-
Fascinating thread...
I'm married. Hence, don't do much flirting. But I was always pretty crap at it.
I have to admit, I'm pretty uneasy/quasi-terrified by men (DH, excluded). Even now, I hate finding myself in a one-on-one situation with the opposite sex. Like, say, if one of our couple-friends comes to visit, I positively dread the moment when I find myself alone in the kitchen with my girlfriend's husband. I feel horrendously uneasy/closed off, can't think of a thing to say to him, can't be in the moment, can't really listen to or respond to whatever he has to say, then feel as though I'm coming off like an icy snob.
My NM was a man-hater. From the time my sister and I were very young, NM was always banging on about how men treated women so poorly, got preferential treatment, got more attention/better advantages, were boastful, self-interested, self-serving, etc. And she really encouraged us to identify as feminists. GC-sis has taken the man-hating to the extreme (she talks at length about how she hopes her three-year-old daughter will be a lesbian, and thus avoid men completely).
NM also did a great job keeping us isolated from the opposite sex. Our dad, included. He traveled a lot, but even when he was home, NM acted like any bond we had with him/time we spent with him was an affront to her. NM forced G-sis and me into really feminine activities--like ballet--where there were hardly any heterosexual men or boys.
The combination--being isolated from the world of men and, simultaneously, absorbing NM's anti-man messages--had a serious impact on me. For years, I felt like people with the "Y" chromosome were space aliens, members of a completely different species.
On the one hand, I was boy-CRRAZY. I wanted them to save me--to cancel out all my family horrors, give me the love and affection I'd never had--but at the same time I didn't trust them enough to really open up to them emotionally. DH taught me true emotional intimacy.
Sorry to drone on. It's just interesting stuff. Recently found this article about NPD and gender identity: http://www.narth.com/docs/1996papers/schoenwolf.html Not really a fan of all the penis-envy stuff, but the part about "bemoaning the female role" fits my NM like a glove.
Anyway, early on in my relationship with DH--realizing that I had no idea what a two-way relationship looked like (NM and co-N D were hardly role models)--I decided that I was going to just going to begin by emulating the most intimate relationship I'd ever had: the relationship with my therapist. Which is not to say, I was going to try to "save," "diagnose" him or visa versa, only that I was going to get to know him by asking him the kinds of things that T had once asked me. You know, the meat and potatoes stuff like what his early childhood memories were, what he liked most about the way he grew up, who first broke his heart, etc. Sounds really remedial, but to me, the kinds of conversations that followed were a revelation. He shared, I shared. Before, I'd always felt like I had to play a part with a man, like, read from a certain script, find out what he wanted from me and then conform to it.
It also helped that I'd been working with T, thinking about what kind of relationship I wanted. Really honing in on what qualities I wanted to have in a partner, what my "deal breakers" were, etc. T really thought the Law of Attraction applied to dating.
Hope this helps...
hope anyone who's looking for a partner meets his/her heart's desire, Kay x
-
Bones, m'dear...
I know. I've resisted commenting on some of the stuff you've written about your mom - and even getting into this topic on my own, for myself. What you've written - what you were put through - makes me uncommonly, deeply angry. Flat out - your mom was a criminal... and in today's society, she surely would've been arrested and locked away for life. The things you've shared - well, it doesn't bring out the nicest, mature sides of me either!!
I'm sorry for the awful memories and if it's too much - protect yourself first, OK? My feelings won't be hurt.
Thanks, P.R.
Bones
-
(((((((((((Dear Bones)))))))))),
You are remarkable. You survived. You are able to talk about it. You're smart. You will not be defeated. You are loved here.
tt
Thanks, TT.
Bones
-
The book "Don't Sweat The Small Stuff in Love" makes a reference on how to request SELF time in there somewhere in a least one or two of the chapters. Maybe get it at a library. The author Richard Carlson says he really needs his SELF time. So they talk about this in the book somewhere. I'm trying to find the chapter.
I love the word Mirthful! Well what makes someone good at "Play"? I know it's a dorky question.
-
Hops,
Why don't you have the time to date? Are you considering dating Hops?
-
It's partly time, Boat...I work fulltime and feel drained.
But a lot of it's isolation (I hermit every evening except a couple of church groups every month I drag myself to), and some depression.
A lot of avoidance too. I have fears about it, am very ambivalent.
I daydream about a loving relationship but have had many failed ones.
I precoccupy myself with escape things (timewasting TV) and when I did have a date I was excited about, I scared myself by feeling so much anxiety I got chest pain. Pretty much turned me off it. Though I did have a couple nice dates with someone else whom I might see again after the holidays.
Mostly lately, I am pretty crushed by my failed relationship with my daughter and her dire situtation (close to yours at the moment).. I don't seem to have enough energy left to dream happy dreams for myself. I am still in limbo about where I'll live in old age, rough job situation at times, just all that.
Romance seems like...I don't know, going to Dunkin' Donuts or something. I think maybe that's not true, and I need to care more about creating new possibilities for myself, including finding a relationship. For the last few years, just haven't had the strength.
All that's pretty self-pitying (few rough emails from her this evening) and I'm going to try to shake it off.
Thanks for asking, Boat.
Hops
-
So do y'all think this type of Mirroring that Erin describes is the same sort of mirroring that mother's do with their baby/children?
Mirroring has been described on the board before in other posts but not in the context of flirting is it the same thing.
This is Redhead Erin's Post from other thread:
"Here is an easy technique called "Mirroring and matching." Pretend you are a mirror of the person you are flirting with. Every time he makes a large movement, wait three seconds and make a similar movement. For example, he takes a sip of his drink, count 1...2...3...sip your drink. He scratched his ear ...1..2...3...push some hair behind you ear. You can do this for quite a log time. When you feel like you are getting into a rhythem, you cAN
reverse the process. Sip your drink (or whatever) first, and see if he follows you.
How this works, it establishes a sort of sympathy between two people. It puts you in a space of having something in common and creates a friendly atmosphere in which you can then get into a good conversation."
-
Come to think of it, yes I believe so, though I never put it together before. Cool Boat.
((((Bones))))
Hang in there.
(((Hops)))
Things will get better.
-
Come to think of it, yes I believe so, though I never put it together before. Cool Boat.
((((Bones))))
Hang in there.
(((Hops)))
Things will get better.
Thanks, Erin.
Bones
-
Mirthful... reminds me of smurfs! Is play: anything that's FUN?
Bones - you know you're welcome to jump in, whenever you want to, right? I just don't want this chat to bring on a whole stream of nasty stuff from the past for you; or me for that matter... (and yeah, I know it's lurking - that's what part of my fear and inability to just SAY what I want to - need to - SAY is about).
Boat - yes, I think you're absolutely spot on with the idea that Erin's mirroring/marking during flirting is identical to the early infant/mom attachment bond. I wonder: how many of us flirt this way unconsciously? I don't know for a fact that I've done this... but given my unconscious mimicking, it's more than likely. OH DUH... I guess the reason I unconsciously mirror back people's gestures, manner of speaking - and even regional accents if I'm paying attention - is precisely that "looking for the mirror"... the echo to my original yodel... "the missing piece"... the one person I belong to. Like spy code phrases... you have to say the right thing for the other person to recognize you're the right contact...
I just did this "speech mimic" the other day with someone I met who was from Queens; I noticed it and tried to consciously stop it. It's difficult tho - that longing to BElong is pretty strong in me.
Which is a direct contradiction to the pulling back syndrome I have, with intimacy... isn't it? Damn primary attachment that was dangerous, anyway.... < I'll just run screaming out of the room now; thanks... I don't think I can reconcile those 2 opposites yet>.
My anxiety with hubs and intimacy, hasn't always been there. It ONLY came up, after T... and no, I didn't deal with that then. There were a lot of other things to pay attention to at the time. The shutdown I experience - the physical withdrawing - I still believe is directly connected to being overpowered - and all the crap that followed - during the rape. On the "After Silence" board - it was pretty clear this was an experience that's pretty common. And since I was denied the opportunity to process that whole experience, until it came out in therapy... I guess my timeline isn't out of the ordinary, either. But it ticks me off - I want it to "go away" so I can "go back to" being my other happy to touch & snuggle &... Self. Hubs most definitely wants it go back - and he'll settle for "closer". At the moment, I have to psyche myself up and talk myself through things... constantly telling myself that it's OK, I'm safe. That's not exactly fun or playful.
But the other thing I think I've been working through is how this all relates to boundaries. Learning what a need was... that I had needs... what my boundaries were - and how nice it felt to be safe inside my boundaries, living in my little bubble taking care of my needs as best I could for myself. Being safe inside a bubble that no one else is allowed in... isn't a hell of a lot of fun when you're a person who needs to feel connected - that recognition and BElonging of mirroring/marking.
And to be blunt about it, therapy essentially gave me permission for the first time in my life to pay attention to myself; to put myself first on the list and as usual, once I got that bit between my teeth.... I ran with it - at least in the one arena where I felt I could without being challenged or questioned. That's not fair and it's damn well NOT what I want. I really wasn't paying attention.
And of course, it would be easy to just blame everything on the fact that the one person who I trusted to take care of me, to mirror and mark me... only wanted me to mirror/mark HER... and every time I allowed myself to be close - I was engulfed/enmeshed, no boundaries allowed... so I'm programmed to associate that danger with intimacy. My having an emotion was just like bait dropped in a school of starving fish... and I got "hooked" every time. Blaming Nmom didn't get me the result I wanted, even though I had to detail all the links in the chain of that wacked relationship enough times - that it lost it's mystery and magic and power. I've seen that trick enough times now. Being angry didn't work either... and wow - as utilitarian as those boundaries are, when dealing with pushy, or manipulative or using-taker people... they're stumbling blocks to connection if there are no windows, doors, or permeability or flexibility. My guess is: that kind of boundary - the intimacy boundary - is one of those situational things; it's a line in the sand that can be erased -- not something engraved in granite.
Boundaries: can't live with them, when they're too defensive/strong or too weak... can't live without 'em.
Isn't a volleyball net a boundary? Playing field? Basketball court? Chess board squares? Hmmmmmmmmmm.
-
Wondering how this topic fits into experiencing Voicelessness.
Generally I have some sense of secrecy or privacy about flirting etc.
Maybe the voicelessness comes in because I just never discus it at all.
But somehow since the topic has come up, I think I have been talking to people more when I am out and about I think.
Sort of like "is it okay to play" ?
I have been told that I am very aloof and stand-offish sometimes...I don't know how accurate that feedback is but probably is.
On some level I wonder if I just don't know if....(Is it okay to play)?
And doesn't that tie in with anxiety also....if one always questions (IS IT OKAY TO PLAY) that is a place of anxiety.
When I write (Is it okay to play)...that makes me take a deep breathe.
It's such a basic simple thing, how can this really be an issue?
-
....so that would lead me on to consider if it really is unsafe for me to play....or it is safe for me to play yet I still feel unsafe...
How do I know if it is "SAFE TO PLAY"... I'm not so much talking about flirting, I'm talking about just simply conversing with anybody in an AT EASE way. As opposed to an anxious way.
...that would lead me on to are there more sophisticated types of play specifically for "unsafe" situations...because animals out in the wild sometimes are playing at fighting correct? If animals play fight...then it is serious play.
I'm not sure what I am getting at here. Does anybody else feel as if they are NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY???
Clearly I have discovered an affirmation here: "It's okay to play" or I am allowed to play.
-
Boat - the reason I finally started this thread is because I often don't feel it's safe to play. Play is connected to a whole bunch of other things, too. And it's a tangled ball o' yuck...
... and I'm trying to figure it out. It's not just hubs & intimate relationships... it's lots of things; lots of situations. Yes, anxiety is part of the tangle - at least for me it is.
Things have been busy on the board lately. I need to just go somewhere & think a bit. Everyone's ideas are definitely helping. Moving things along.
-
You've got to feel SAFE to play.
I had a friend in a women's support group once who had lived through a very very rough "on the streets" kind of adolescence. I didn't understand her for a long time until one day I told her she reminded me of the Viet Nam vets I knew, who were eternally vigilant and tense, jumping at the slightest noise. I thought she was similar in that maybe she found it hard to recognize that she was now in peace time. She connected to that; it made sense to her.
PTSD is one explanation. Though that kind of vigilance can be an undercurrent, milder, etc...
So the kinds of emotional lockdown kids of abusive or twisted or repressive situations (maybe like severely Nparent/s) have to do to survive, I think contributes to a kind of inflexibility that means all things are forced in a way. Connection is forced, relaxation is forced, and the minuet between the two is a minefield rather than a dance. If you're constantly having to summon up the emotional energy to plan and launch the inner realization that now is time for connection (ooomph) or now is the time this organism needs to relax (more effort to recognize and then get there, ooooooooommmph) ... how the heck is any energy left over for play?
I think that's why it's hard for wounded people to play. Play also requires being very much in the present moment. Not reverberating from the past or fearing the future.
It makes perfect sense to me that this is very hard...to get to be present enough to play.
At the same time it also makes perfect sense to me that wounded people can learn to feel safe again, and be present again.
Art therapy probably will help. Drama, too. Singing. Time with children. Gardening...
Feeling "jumpy" is a clue that your past or your future are climbing into the circle of your present.
(I am a human bunny wabbit. Boing boing.)
xo
Hops
-
(I am a human bunny wabbit. Boing boing.)
:lol: That makes me laugh Hops. Is that where you got the name Hops from?
-
Hopalong Cassidy...an early hero...
:lol:
-
Hopalong Cassidy...an early hero...
:lol:
I remember Hopalong Cassidy from my childhood, along with Roy Rogers and Dale Evans.
Bones
-
I had a dream when I was 3 or 4 - that Roy & Dale were going to adopt me (they adopted all their kids). I missed the ice cream truck, because I didn't want to wake up from the dream... and this is verified by my bro, who still teases me about it.
Hops:
So the kinds of emotional lockdown kids of abusive or twisted or repressive situations (maybe like severely Nparent/s) have to do to survive, I think contributes to a kind of inflexibility that means all things are forced in a way. Connection is forced, relaxation is forced, and the minuet between the two is a minefield rather than a dance. If you're constantly having to summon up the emotional energy to plan and launch the inner realization that now is time for connection (ooomph) or now is the time this organism needs to relax (more effort to recognize and then get there, ooooooooommmph) ... how the heck is any energy left over for play?
Boy, Hops! Even if you are bouncy, you sure see right through the kind of verbal dancing around I'm guilty of... and get right to the point, huh?? I feel like a fly under a T-pin. Caught in the act. On viral video! ::oops:: Thank you. I'm grateful for your insight.
Seriously, I think this is true of me and that pit of the stomach void, unable to recognize the signs of play, inability to respond in kind distance (or slipping away with my attention to slink along the wall and make good my escape only to go "HUH?" later on). I guess when you live in an environment where the "rules" are always changing - and you're not allowed to say: yesterday the rule was THIS so why is it different today???; I guess one of the defensive things one clings to is a finite, concrete, rigid definition of things. IS/IS NOT.
The party I went to for my D's engagement... a bunch of boho, young, artsy or musical people in a place where there are no "rules" except to be nice and have fun... well, this old lady had a blast!! Flirting, even. But also feeling like I was connecting - with the fiance's family, my Ds friends... most of whom I hadn't met before. I even felt like I was in my element; more so than hubs and son-in-law who aren't comfortable in the city. I'd had plenty of time to talk myself around to feeling as if I had permission to do this... and within limits of some non-defined, unknowable "decorum".
Me. The one that lets anxiety wind me up so tight about having company because something in me insists I must be responsible for insuring that everyone has a wonderful time & everything is "perfect"... feeling at a loss and frightened in large groups of people... not feeling as if I have the experience/personality/forbearance even... to enjoy such things. Or that I'll stick out as being inappropriately dressed... a wallflower... shy... NOT HAVING FUN... i.e., not engaging, so why on earth am I there? When you don't have groups of friends or birthday parties as a kid... you never learn the rules, the limits, the manners or even know what you're supposed to do at these things.
So. OK. Now I have "proof" that I know how to do this; I know how to play in that area. Feedback from D post-party was also positive, from her friends. Some of them are trying to "friend" me on FB. Hops is also right about the PTSD, in that I have an anxiety-warning-system alarm that activates all the old tapes about how I won't "fit in", I'm not dressed "right" (because mom dressed me according to her ignorance of this kind of activity), I'll say something awful (because mom thought things I said were awful...), oh yes - and all those people are automatically going to be snobs, look down their noses at me, make fun of me... and I'll see mom was right in the first place: I never should've gone. "People" are bad. ESPECIALLY people who have fun and enjoy themselves.
Projection is such a perverse thing. This is complicated for me, by the fact that my Dad liked social things - he liked to have fun, the way "other" people had fun. Oh, don't you know? My Dad was evil incarnate... because he felt the need to connect with people outside of the family... he "should've" been there 24/7, when he wasn't working... he was a bad father; didn't care about us kids... [That wasn't just an implied message from my mom; it was explicitly stated. Over & over. About how irresponsible, uncaring, etc he was... because he "escaped" from my mom's constant ego-battering, nagging, negativity and hostility.]
Voila. Guilt over having a good time. Anxiety about being one of "those" people who enjoy connecting with others and having a good time... and over time, I suppose that also develops into the same fear of intimacy -- especially since it was always torture, brainwashing, projection, and being openly criticized and humiliated -- being "intimate" with my mom. Talk about sticking your head in the lion's mouth - over & over!!! I'm reminded of FW's advice: sometimes it's appropriate to run when a lion is trying to eat you.
Sorry if this is rather incoherent; when the associations of things past & present click together for me they go really fast and in no particular order. I have to sort & organize it later... or I miss things.
EDIT IN: I almost missed this: "sometimes it's appropriate to run when a lion is trying to eat you" applies to my mother the Nlion..... NOT my sweet, gentle, playful, doting hubs. And he's not automatically "bad" either; doesn't fit Nmom's "profile" that she concocted for my Dad... because he's totally stuck to me, like glue - UNLESS we're out at a social gathering; and even then, he's not far away. He's that protective. It irritates me sometimes, but now that I understand it, it doesn't seem so annoying.
-
I feel horrendously uneasy/closed off, can't think of a thing to say to him.....
Relax. He probably isn't listening anyway.
mud
-
:mrgreen: @Mud
That is another one of the most important things I've learned. :D
-
ah.... mud! how right you are. I hope you know I'm still laughing, tho... (good timing!!)
Isn't it weird (rhetorical question) that we're programmed to constantly worry what someone ELSE is thinking about us, whether they're ready to pounce with a criticism, a cut-down, just another plop of yucky emotional crap??? All because of that one (or more) N in our life? It's a problem we don't have to have -- with other people -- yet we do.
Maybe that's a sort zen-koan answer to Boat's question about what this topic of play, flirting, intimacy... has to do with voicelessness.
-
Hi NLS...
no, there's no tight definition of what this topic is about - we've even digressed into how the concept of play (which I've been thinking about again, lately) comes into thoughts, feelings... our attitudes about relationships - what works/what doesn't - what we want to change, etc. For me, how I function in a relationship is built on all the other crap about me that is more or less dysfunctional, on any given day.
I get to protect myself until I feel ready to be vulnerable.
I think your decision here gets very close to the heart of the topic, in fact.
Like tt says, what we practice a lot starts to feel natural... our comfortzone... us. I'm gonna guess that a few of us - I know I have had this experience - I will think I'm safe and protecting myself... in the midst of flirting, or "play"... and then suddenly - without noticing it happening - find myself vulnerable. Trapped. Cornered. Forced into an either/or decision that is totally no-win. OOPS. I don't like these situations.
I don't have much practice being vulnerable; at least not enough, where I can truly trust that I will be safe, seen, heard and taken care of***. So, it's not built into my feelings... not easily recognized... I don't consciously know the various things that go into the "recipe" either... where yes, I still have my boundaries - but they're not so high & inpenetrable & formidable that the perceived message is "go away, I vant to be alone" - and I'm also feeling safe enough that I can be vulnerable... and still "play".
***
"being taken care of" seems to be new theme with me. I used to joke, that hubs & I needed a live-in mommy... but it's less funny in the context of this topic. I do think, this is an indication I have some needs not getting met. Is it possible to crave something that scares the crap out of oneself? Isn't "being taken care of" the same as vulnerability & intimacy?? Or am I being emotionally naive again??
-
Well I know that both my mother and grandmother give horrible horrible advice related to romance. More noticeable though is the over all lack of valuable wisdom they have to offer in this area.
Well except that my grandmother said "date nerds"......maybe that was good advice I'm not certain.
-
Oh, tt... I thought THIS was very, very, very, very wise:
If his inner man doesn't feel safe with you, you will rarely see him.
Very helpful, too.
NLS: question for you to think about! (It's ok, if you don't want to answer here).
Do you sometimes feel as if your mom wants to choose your guys -- so that you end up exactly in the kind of relationship she's in? So that misery will have company? If so, then ask another question: WHY has she stay married to this person, if he is all you say he is? What does that say, about how she sees herself? Does she REALLY believe that women don't have the right to say no to a man's sexual advances? (yes... one can tell hubby no, too - contrary to some old belief-systems).
Trying to answer those questions, might give you some clues to just how bad her advice to you, really is... and also why she's so forthcoming with it.
Now, my own question for input from y'all... WHY is it, some kind of girls' social sport to gripe about, criticize, and generally put down our hubbys? I can't seem to escape this in my 3D connections lately. Yes, I "play" too... because I'm trying to find solutions to the problems with hubs and me that seem - well, downright silly and should be easy to change. But it doesn't feel "fair" to me to engage in that whole thing. He has begun to help in the kitchen more - will take care of the dishes, for instance without prompting or asking. Just because it needs to be done. (Progress!) He helps recycle the stacks of magazines and junk mail that he's responsible for bringing into the house now, too.
These people (with a couple exceptions) don't seem all that seriously upset about the relationship or interested in changing it. They'd rather just let off steam with a good round of "ain't they awful"... is this some kind of female bonding ritual? Do those even exist? My brain has a memory of being told that women form relationships with each other this way, working in the kitchen, minding the babes & putting up the harvest. Of course, in my lifelong avoidance of female friends... it hasn't been that way for me. I'm lucky to have any female friends, really. So I am asking a serious question - because I don't know.
Comments? Insights?
-
PR
WHY is it, some kind of girls' social sport to gripe about, criticize, and generally put down our hubbys?
To stop other women stealing them? ("He's so useless, you wouldn't want him".)
Or to encourage other women to have a go at stealing them ("I don't want him, he's useless"), so that the griper can be free to choose another one?
Or because they see men as a separate species? One to regard as the enemy?
Whatever the reason, I find it off-putting; I don't like it. I pretend to not be affronted by such stuff but I take notice of who does it and don't take part.
How would these women like it if they heard their hubby talking about them with their mates in similar terms?
Soapbox over.
-
Thx, FW... that's pretty close to what I was thinking too. But I notice that this is done usually right in front of said husband... with the "out" that wifey is just teasing... don't take it seriously, etc. It just feels mean, like trying to one-up hubby's ego or put him down... for the sole reason of being considered "one of the girls" and "witty" (or snarky)... I think I'm finding a way through this; each situation is a bit different.
I don't like to pounce on hubby like that (in the name of "playing") because he does have his insecure side; his inferiority (in comparison) issues... when in truth, he's a very sensitive, sweet, and very smart person. It's precisely because he doesn't have the huge, outsized, "see what I've achieved" male ego... that I like him, too. Most women do. But I think I see the dirty laundry behind this social game... it's that the women (for the most part) haven't had their own careers; they've not competed with men on that level. So this is a mean-spirited way to "level the current playing field". And it would seriously backfire in real-world competition in the workplace.
-----------------
NLS:
try to keep the personal stuff separate from the cultural pressures, in how you think about this topic: guys & marriage. Your mom is used to them being one and the same; and accepting this as "the way things are". They are NOT.
And whether your mom wants to admit it or not, the trend in marriage statistics - especially in your generation - among white society is improving. My guess is, that even in India... the tradition of arranged marriages is giving way to modern life also. She is clinging to this one aspect... as if it's the sum total of your cultural identity. It is not. The culture can and will survive and change and adapt and grow... without arranged marriages.
However: that's an important cultural norm for your mom; a part of her self-identity and your breaking with that tradition is going to be tough on both of you. Years ago, I went through something similar - breaking with another strong cultural identity. Ironic isn't it? The word "cult" comes from culture... and one has negative connotations and the other positive.
I keep coming back to the fact - culturally and personally - that you and only you have control over that boundary; of whom you choose to be in a relationship with. That is your right as a woman in this current world we live in. I wouldn't be too eager to give that right up, just to keep mom happy, you know? It is possible to keep one's cultural heritage and identity intact, even if one doesn't subscribe to individual pieces of it.
-
So, today... I'm thinking I kinda understand those women who essentially are saying: Take my hubby, PLEASE! I'm also reminded of the reports of Japanese women committing suicide after their husbands retire ...
Despite the fact, that hubs and I are together almost constantly 24/7... from the time I wake up till the time my lights go out at night... if I go somewhere to do something alone - he "gets lonely" and comes & tracks me down. He won't eat unless I do. He claims to not be able to "do" anything on his own without my assistance. If I'm here writing too long... he whines. Like a child tugging at my skirts - mommy, mommy!
Our constant struggle is over his ability to do tasks, solo - whether it's sorting and recycling his magazines, washing dishes... organizing his workspace and files, even his garage. Yet the man was very competent in his work life. And quite social, as well. And he doesn't seem to understand my need to go do things all by myself, either. This doesn't bode well for starting to do creative work again, does it? I had one of my famous "meltdowns" yesterday, because I was trying to clean up, visualize further decorating ideas, put away our creative, christmas-y mess... so that I could wrap presents. I tend to "flit" as he says, from one type of task to another if it's in my direct path. Progressively accomplishing a totality of clean, in the space. Every step I took - he was in front of me. Every move I made, there he was... and of course, he made comments and asked a lot of what are you doing now?? questions and worst of all: I was trying to work and he just stood there watching me. This is his definition of "helping".
aaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhh!!!
We have talked about this for 10 years. I have explained that I need time alone. With other people. Without him. That it drives me up a wall to have someone stand around and watch me work - when there are things that he could be doing. And that I resent being made responsible for cleaning up his messes... and that I can't take care of everything around the house all by myself - I need his active participation... but not in the way he likes to do this: telling me what I'm doing wrong and then inserting himself into the process, so that once again the divide and conquer strategy is sabotaged.
When he's working - he does want me to stand there and pat him on the back and make suggestions. He needs his gold stars and hubby points. The minute I turn my attention to something productive -- he stops; it's as if he needs an audience to perform. And then he's interrupting what I'm doing....
On the one hand, I feel like he absolutely doesn't understand the need to be alone that I have; why I enjoy it... and I completely don't understand his need for my attention, every waking minute of his existence either. How on earth did he put in those long hours at work without me??? I'm not buying the "I love you more" line either. It's almost as if he doesn't trust the strength of the relationship enough, for each of us to have our own individual lives within it. SIGH............. I keep telling him that was one of the other wives; not me.
[/vent]
-
PR!!!
aaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhh!!!
How about subscribing him to a riveting online forum for his fave subject?
I don't know how you cope, I really don't!
The problem we have is: who's turn is it on the pc???? Two pcs would solve the problem but hey, we'd start sending each other chat messages from across the room...
-
NLAS, I am sorry you feel so despairing.
You need to befriend YOU, the person who is neither daughter nor mate.
It's your recognition of a SELF that needs your love, your energy and thought...not your slave self who is bullied by mother and tormented by anxiety over a present or absent or potential mate. The real and whole person inside you, whom you have rejected.
This doesn't mean you will be alone forever. You are young! I know people who married in their 40s...even a couple in their 50s.
It means until you can befriend being with yourself, no companion or label or status will fix these feelings.
I feel for you. Please don't give up.
But tackle the issue of recognizing and healing and befriending yourself, hopefully with a brilliant wise therapist.
The other people in your life aren't up to the challenge, and I believe can't help you with this deep identity healing.
You can still turn to them for connection, but don't look to your mother or any mate for this ultimate answer, the actual recognition that you really are a person. Not a label, or a role.
My wish for you is that you will assert this over and over, not just in defiance, but in experiencing love of yourself.
YOU can help yourself, with a therapist ally.
love,
Hops
-
OH, FW... we don't lack for multiple pcs... his currently resides in the "office" which is conveniently located for me, as my studio space. I'm making one last effort to convince him the space has to be at least accomodating for that activity... or I'm moving it to the pool house!!!!!!!! At least it's a big house - and we can separate that way. PROBLEM is that he will always track me down... saying "I couldn't find you"... with his sad-dog look.
What he doesn't realize yet - despite setting it off multiple times already - is that in my unconscious vernacular, he is asking me to kick him. And I hate myself when I kick him. Dammit. This stuff doesn't even feel important enough for me to vent about it, but if I don't... yaaaah! crazy lady time. What a weird dance to do... like two over-stuffed turkeys fighting over a pile of grain... ACK!! to quote Bill the Cat.
-
Oh how difficult. PR...wow.
Your description reminds me of a very insecurely attached small dog who comes to work with my coworker, who is alternately doting and controlling (way too much) of him. The result of her overwhelming domination is that he is literally incapable of relaxing if she's out of his sight, even momentarily. It's distressing to see. He doesn't know how to be a dog on his own, interacting with the world. (She also can be cruel.)
I think a lot about dog language. There's a kind of fear that goes along with clinging.
From the outside, though I'm sure it's both, it looks mostly like a fear-attachment, not an affection-attachment. In people, may additionally have a lot to do with intraversion and extraversion...old news.
Somebody's too powerful. That's probably you. (Which is not a blame thing.)
I have been the incredibly anxious clinger, and also the clingee.
Both are misery.
Glad you're spelling it out, taking another look.
xo
Hops
-
Yah... Hops & tt... last night he apologizes (yet again) for irritating me and then says I'm all he's got. Talk about feeling only yay-high... and yet this is where our "us" resides - I felt the echo of the same kind of gaping loss in him, that I had. I knew that he knew and I didn't have to explain.
You've both got valid points and x-ray vision insights. I think I'm coming down with a more serious form of head-cold than I've been fighting for a week... and am not even making much sense to myself this morning. Maybe when the front moves offshore a bit more, my head will clear. It's quite possible that not feeling well... I'm looking for a problem where none exists...
We'd both like to be taken care of by a good mommy. We just have to figure out how to do that for each other.
-
yeah, well I'll be right behind ya in line -- or butting in front of you: OH LOOK! A naked Santa!! hee-hee!
no, I'm not feeling much better and yes, I had my chicken soup. At least my nose is giving me 10 mins between sniffles now.
-
I'm sick also, I have the stomach flu...urppp. Total yuck.
Managed to try on a velvet Christmas dress that fits but I don't have shoes, purse etc. that go along with it.
After chit-chatting a little on this topic here.. (flirting)...well I decided I would go ahead and flirt more.
I think the outcome is maybe people think I am generally friendlier? Also I now have a guy who is six years younger than me texting me and calling me....that was probably not a great idea. He seems rather nice and my goodbye attempt just wasn't strong enough I guess...most likely it will peter out eventually. He is some sort of salesman...they can be persuasive...I admit it, I might as well be an attention whore now. I like the attention, that can't be bad really...that must just be human. Its okay to want attention. What was just fun has become a bit of a burden/distraction though?
I just spent two hours talking to him on the phone.
Maybe I need to cut him off. Is that really something I need to do?.....hummm...I don't really know right now.
-
Hi Boat - if my typing falls apart, it's because I have a new 'puter and I haven't kept up with new techie stuff, since quitting my job a couple years ago. I'm either hitting wrong keys or typing online settings needs some tweaks.
I'm sorry you're not feeling well! Hope you can keep some good food down soon. I think I've kicked my cold; it was weird - I was totally down for the count for 24 hrs, slept like a log (thank you cold medicine)... and was just fine the next day. Something fishy about that!
Look - your new guy... it helps a lot if you can think of him as a friend, for now. Just enjoy the attention and connection-feeling as much as you can. You might set some boundaries with him, to see how he reacts... I can't talk to you from ________ to __________ or on Tuesdays. Ask him if there are times you should avoid reaching out to him, too. Explanation: you both have personal things to do in your own life and while you're enjoying each other's company there are reasonable limits and other important things. Tell him you don't want to be clingy or something like that... but keep flirting... lots of couples have plenty of autonomy and space within the relationship... and that means there's a high level of trust that developed over time. Everybody and every relationship is a bit different. It will be interesting to watch his response to boundaries... and your own, too.
24/7 togetherness is fantastic - for awhile. Especially when you're still getting to know each other. But it can also make me want to run away - very quickly and very far - because of my fear of being smothered by another person. The "friend" category doesn't have any set definitions; a high level of intimacy is still possible... but it does have the advantage of lowering that fear factor, wiping out expectations & some of the negative associations we have with words & events like "date", "going out", "boyfriend", "relationship"... that absolutely get in the way of simply enjoying being together, and feeling connected to and appreciated by... another person. One feeling I have tells me when I have a good friend... or when the relationship might be getting to be more than that, in an OK way... and that's when I feel protected - that he's on my side - and will watch my back.
And if he brings you chicken soup and hangs around to cheer you up... he might be a keeper! Feel better soon.
-
Well, I evaded because it was meant to be a passing entertaining flirtation, tonight though I told him about my personal situation in no flowery terms. Didn't go over very well....don't think he will be calling me again. I laugh at myself with the darkest humor possible, oh well. There is just no way to light up this Christmas tree...wink
APRIL FOOLS!....no really I am a skank.....Fa la la la la la---LA---LA---LA----LAAAA
Somehow I feel like the bigger person in the end even though I get it that people don't understand. The bigger person even if that doesn't make sense because I CAN sit with myself and try not to put hate onto myself.
Thing is often one flirts before they get to know the other person really well, as a kind of preliminary. It doesn't often happen that a person gets to know another really well and then flirts after the fact. Well, I guess this will learn him to not be so naive.
The guy wasn't even near to being wealthy and that was never my focus (my point being he isn't super "better" than me)....sort of makes me ask myself now....why exactly is he excused from jerkdom. Banished to Jerkdom.
I was playing at flirting and it took off like a horse with my leg stuck in the stirrup, but now I feel like I played a MEAN JOKE ON HIM!!!!!!! Why would I even feel that way!!! Makes no sense.
I don't feel very good about it though, sort of confirms in cement almost that I am not only in, but a part of the "underworld", a lower eschelon of bottom dwellers.
Needed a break from seriousness, needed some sweetness but I knew that I was only proving something disappointing to myself.
At least I got called "lovely" out of it....haven't heard that in a long time.
Why did I have to tell him the truth? Now I see the appeal in elaborate fibbery. I should have lied to hear more "lovely,lovely,lovely" but I can't do stuff like that it's going too far.
I like the sweet nice goody goody guys....but really I should be flirting with the scary skinheads.
There I vented about my messed up life that should be one big social experiment and not even called a "LIFE".
Anywho more to write somewhere else. another day, another time
Boy the board gets still around X-mas
Peace Y'all
-
Well, Boat... just like you take a risk in flirting, so does the guy. It's up to him to be responsible for his feelings and boundaries and taking his own chances. Not your job to protect him.
But I wonder: is it possible that you started to like him, for real, just a little bit?
-
Hey Boat.
Occurring to me that maybe the focus needs to be on boundaries (self and others) and relating in a healthy way, no matter with whom.
IOW, if one "gets" or learns to gradually get closer to...
strong sense of self
healthy boundaries
assertiveness
I-statements
present-moment
and play
Flirting could evolve out of that. I think focusing on it as a separate distinct behavior can generate confusion or frustration.
At least it does for me. (Whole sets of cultural shorthand, assumptions, and "scores" just rush in. Overwhelmingly paralytic. Or triggering.)
If I think of healthy reciprocal communication that takes turns, is present-focused, is honest and is safe and playful...well then sexuality could be
one thing that's expressed. Or creativity. Or nurturing. Or delight.
The honesty part is connected to the boundaries part which is connected to the self-care part.
Rambling,
Hops
-
Looks like he didn't totally go away afterall....but hay, things are not fun anymore right. He is trying to tell me that he doesn't judge people but I think he just doesnt want to look bad. I can't process it all right now I need to go to an appointment.
Hops, I like your ramble...helps me to clarify my own thoughts.
Is this one of those things that maybe I shouldn't think my way through? why not just throw myself into it like a goofy idiot :)
I know its reckless. I know.
-
But I wonder: is it possible that you started to like him, for real, just a little bit?
I don't know him that well, he has that charming thing going on. Could charm the pants off of the president. We like each other's company a lot, we have just hung out and talked nothing beyond that.
What is "like" any ways? We all need our hearts to be transformed in someway....the heart just becomes helplessly addicted to love....like the song.
Isn't it our job to protect other people that we are involved with though???
-
Well, Boat... I don't have any pat answers for you or even lofty, vague, complex attempts to explain. I'm getting kinda foggy; thinking too much and working too much... and not having much fun doing either one of them, right now. I'm possessed with the Christmas deadline -- the one in my head.
If you're just hanging out, the guy is charming and fun... I don't see any harm in continuing to do so, even if you decide to put some limits on it. Some basic boundary of "I gotta go this other thing now, see ya soon" is good. Take a day or two for yourself to walk... get over the flu... pamper yourself, as best you can and let your feelings settle. He's not something you "have to do" or make decisions about in any particular way or timeline. Sometimes, it's good for oneself to "just go with the flow"... without expecting anything and just wait to see what does or doesn't happen. I'm a sucker for charming! Sometimes that's worked out really well; other times not. What I like about flirting with charming guys, is that it kind of opens up that part of me... creaky, rusty, stuck parts that haven't really grown or developed much... but I like the way I feel, trying to rise to the challenge and "play".
The other questions are harder and maybe just a tad beyond the specifics of one guy, one experience with guys. And I can't claim any particular expertise here... just my own experience and way of relating to people. I expect that everyone might answer those questions and think about them, differently... and all of those viewpoints could be considered "correct".
In reverse order, at the flirting stage I wouldn't exactly consider myself "involved" with the guy. So, like a competition (and again, I think this is just my style of relating) we are each responsible for protecting our own feelings behind our boundaries of self. Not expecting specific things... feeling cool with some of the unexpected things... asking about things that I don't understand, make me wary, or one way or another gives my intuition clues that I'm being challenged to move to another level... without being actually being asked in words, therefore not having the opportunity to decline gracefully. Much less ask myself if I want to, you know?
Example: hubs and I danced around each other a lot... neither of us making the first move. Finally, I had to ask him, what he was asking me... and when he said he didn't want to be pushy or selfish or possessive... I had to tell him: I don't go where I'm not invited. He laughed... and I got invited. That gave me the chance to say yes/no... and yeah, it's a bit on the formal negotiation side... but we were both wary, had been hurt or were currently hurting over relationships gone south... and we both had quite a bit at stake - emotionally, professionally, and life basics wise.
The thing about protecting people we're involved with... this is bigger than flirting. It's something I learned was part of how I was co-dependent; how I was always allowing myself to "take the bait" in the N-games in my FOO. I've seen the topic addressed alongside enabling alcoholics, too. Maybe it doesn't apply in this situation for you. But, when we try to protect other people's feelings... it can be like a subtle form of trying to control their feelings... by twisting ourselves into something we're not -- a lot of times; not necessarily always. One example would be, if you knew for a fact that you wouldn't be more than friends with this guy... but to avoid hurting his feelings (because you think he is starting to expect that the relationship will grow deeper; without knowing for sure) you continue to walk the tightrope of feeding his expectation... despite the fact that this now puts you in a tougher situation than just telling him you only want to be friends. There's mind-reading involved in this; and that weird form of "protecting someone's feelings" too. My understanding (limited as it is) is, that it's OVER-responsible to go to these lengths and is a form boundary transgression in itself. It's for sure, not what I personally consider honest anymore.
But, in a bigger sense even than that - you're right about the responsibility to protect people we're committed to. It's one of the fundamental emotional/physical commitments of the parent-child relationship. A child isn't physically able to protect itself and is dependent on the parent to do so. We protect our friends' too - being supportive, loyal, cheering them up or consoling them. And in these more romantic type relationships... protection comes later on, with trust, honesty, respect for boundaries and values and self & other, deeper caring, openness. One reason for me even starting this topic, is the fact that I've got some emotional confusion over this very thing.
And I guess, the source of that confusion is my Nmom's lack of protection of me - in fact, she herself violated my Self's "safety" and kept me on pins & needles, walking on eggshells. And of course, that's highly linked - associated in my brain patterns - with "love" and intimacy. Experience and repetition of experience has created an instinctual expectation for me, that if I open myself up to that degree with someone else... the same damned old bad things will happen. Deep down, there's this lesson that "Love" = "Doormat" = "not surviving". That's wrong; I know it's wrong intellectually, rationally. Emotionally, I'm still learning the "other" reality... still trying to undo the damage. And I'm slow as molasses in the artic about it. I feel fragile, vulnerable, confused and embarassed at my own lack of knowledge of what this "Love" and "like" thing really is. I have days when I'm just as skittish as a feral cat or even as dangerous as an abused dog. Really, those are good analogies.
So, we're up to, "what is like any ways"? That one woke my Twiggy up! :) She pondered this way back when... and still doesn't really know what words make up the answer, scientifically. But, there is a real "chemistry" aspect to it among people. Just bio-stuff... and then there's personality. Some people just "click" together in a complimentary way - each distinctly different but fitting together. Hubs and I are like* this, in a lot of ways. In some other ways, we're too much alike - :( -- and in other ways, we're total opposites, thankfully! Sometimes, people like what mirrors back a bit of themselves. That's how I explain people who always vote the same party ticket, in elections regardless of who's running. Sometimes, people like what's exotic, new and different from themselves. [ * hmmm - one meaning of like is "similar" ] I like my hubs because he's much fun; he's very affectionate (despite all my issues and over-thinking), he's always "been there" for me, even if he's not sure what I need... he'll ask! and he can do math in his head faster than people can use can calculators, sometimes. I like how he's always there to protect me, defend me, stand with me back to back to tackle any threat, challenge, or danger. I like how he doesn't make fun of me... when I'm anxious, panicky, freaked out by FOO-games.
But I love my hubs... just because I do. The totality of him and my experience of him causes this feeling in me. Because of who he is -- not all those things I like about him. I love him, even when I'm complaining about some of the things he does/doesn't do that irritate the hell out of me. I love him when I have to protect and defend him, too. Several of my friends warned me against him; predicted awful things... but after 10 years they haven't happened. He is who he says he is... there weren't any tricks... but not even that is enough explanation for the feeling. It's a mystery - always has been, my guess is it always will be. It's not subject to explanation because it's a thing that's alive somehow. Maybe at the atomic level or something...
and if I get addicted to it, well... it doesn't sound like a bad way to go!! I probably already am addicted to it, simply because of the deficit in my experience. We were invited to a Christmas party over the weekend, for example. It was a small company we used to do some work on the house. There was a great, pickup band; kids and dogs underfoot; food and people - very few of which we knew... and yet, I felt so welcome, so comfortable I really didn't want to go home!! It was absolutely nothing fancy and yet everyone had put caring and attention and FUN into it, pulled it together spontaneously... and in comparison to our neighborhood's social events... that kind of atmosphere and feeling is a lot more rare. I plan on doing something about that... because I think those people need it... and I know for sure, I do.
OK - that was my batch of rambling, from this pathetic brain. I think you'll figure it out Boat - or make it up as you go along - the ultimate creative project, right?
ps - I like you. You ask the bestest questions and make me think things I haven't thought about for a while or in just that way... I need the exercise! LOL...
-
ps - I like you. You ask the bestest questions and make me think things I haven't thought about for a while or in just that way... I need the exercise! LOL...
Hee heee Giggle. Do you wanna flirt Phoenix...wink wink. It sounds like you are contemplating a block party.
I'm digesting what you have said here...gonna take awhile. When do I get atomic love, I could die before that ever happens :shock:.
-
The thing about protecting people we're involved with... this is bigger than flirting. It's something I learned was part of how I was co-dependent; how I was always allowing myself to "take the bait" in the N-games in my FOO. I've seen the topic addressed alongside enabling alcoholics, too. Maybe it doesn't apply in this situation for you. But, when we try to protect other people's feelings... it can be like a subtle form of trying to control their feelings... by twisting ourselves into something we're not -- a lot of times; not necessarily always. One example would be, if you knew for a fact that you wouldn't be more than friends with this guy... but to avoid hurting his feelings (because you think he is starting to expect that the relationship will grow deeper; without knowing for sure) you continue to walk the tightrope of feeding his expectation... despite the fact that this now puts you in a tougher situation than just telling him you only want to be friends. There's mind-reading involved in this; and that weird form of "protecting someone's feelings" too. My understanding (limited as it is) is, that it's OVER-responsible to go to these lengths and is a form boundary transgression in itself. It's for sure, not what I personally consider honest anymore.
This part...good stuff....I don't get it but I know it's good stuff...
When to protect others/when not to protect others- wow that is relating beyond anything I have ever known before
I hate to say it but dating is manipulative I think
Maybe I was trying to control his feelings being codependent, I will have to think about that one.
-
Yeah, I'm probably doing weird stuff not to protect him but to protect myself. But I call it protecting him. Yuck on me.
Sometimes we say we love somebody because of how we feel about them or how "they make us feel".
But that is not the same as giving love to somebody else. The feeling that we have is our feeling...giving love to somebody else is making them feel good.
(I know there is the idea that we are responsible for our own feelings and nobody makes us feel a certain way...but I don't 100% believe that...some people do MAKE me smile...if it wasn't for them I wouldn't smile...they MADE it happen)
Life is a collaborative effort ain't it!
Oh come on, for me all this stuff is out the window anyways...boundaries feh..meh...psshhhh whatever. Just love me love me love me love me love me love me....I know its sad and its desperate (but I AM SAD it's the truth, why act like I'm not?) ...I don't care if it's door matish...anything that makes my heart feel a little bit warm, a little bit glowy, a little bit less iron clad, then I might as well just give up all sense of dignity cause I don't care. Might as well be his pet (Love Me!!!!!) Whatever time is best for you...., what? oh no it's okay to call me at any hour of the night....it's never too late for you
I don't want to THINK at all, about anything...as long as my heart is a little bit glowy every bad thing in life is just a little less powerful.
I am needy, I NEED love, I had too much pride to admit that in the past but come on I've written so much oh here I think its obvious so I'm just gonna say it. People who don't need love because they already have so much of it, gee gosh how nice that must be. I'm not one of those people!! How many people really don't need love ZERO
I have put that part of my personality into it's own compartment just like the inner child...the I need love part of me. The I need love part of me has been controlled to death.
-
WOW
Not only did you "get it" Boat... you just grabbed me by my head and turned my eyes to look at what I spend SOOO much time distracting myself from, pretending it's not important, and then wondering why I feel so crappy most of the time!!!!
Thank you, yes... I would like to flirt with you!! LOL...
You said it so well, and I can relate: I am authentically, genuinely sad.... I need to feel love - giving and getting - just like everyone does... and maybe there's no causal relationship to this; maybe there is.
I feel sad... because I don't let myself feel loved/loving?
I don't feel loved/loving, because I feel sad (or scared, anxious... sometimes)?
Or it is both? Taking turns... at the same time???? Yeah, at the same time; I've felt that.
Maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe just remembering the "antidote" to sadness... maybe that's enough. And realizing that it's OK for us to have our "needy" times... yep; everyone does. Not everyone realizes it or admits it.
...as long as my heart is a little bit glowy every bad thing in life is just a little less powerful.
I think you just discovered one of the secrets of "happiness" here, Boat. Whether we light a candle in our hearts in memory of love-losses in the past, to light the way for those we love who we've been separated from who are coming "home", or to simply create beauty (Navajo "beauty-way" comes to mind...) in the present, we need to tend those glowy bits, like cavemen tended their charcoal to sustain life-giving fire.
Anyway... I'm starting to babble... I am really happy for you, Boat!! I think you just accepted the role of being "the Spirit of Christmas" this year. That's really cool and while I'm appreciating how you're twinkling, glowing, and shining right now... I just wanna say:
BACK AT YA!! It makes me happy, to see you find your happy place. I wish I knew the HTML for the emoticon of the happy, dancing banana. This is one post that could really use him...
-
"You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing an imperfect person perfectly." -- Sam Keen
I adore this quote but this doesn't really happen like this, somebody is taken in with the glamour of another person, the shimmery glamour of our projected ideals coming from our imagination wears off and then one is left with something a little closer to imperfect.
Heck I don't know. Just thought I would throw an awesome quote down.
Could also say that some of us have little dings in the windshield but others of us are almost if not completely "totalled" in the wreck of life. Crash!!!!! just feeling a tad dramatic I guess.
This quote also speaks to "seeing" clearly and also to understanding. (((Understanding)))
-
I think experiencing even a spark of love...is a great thing.
In briefly or hopefully or temporarily loving another, you got to love YOURSELF, Bones...feeling how natural and OKAY it is to be motivated by giving it and receiving it...
I think that's a bright omen for you, Miz B.
Whole lotta people out here. One wonderful person in there.
love,
Hops
-
I adore this quote but this doesn't really happen like this, somebody is taken in with the glamour of another person, the shimmery glamour of our projected ideals coming from our imagination wears off and then one is left with something a little closer to imperfect.
Yeah. This has been my experience too, Boat. And then I had another one - another kind of experience. That is, once you get to seeing the "imperfect" it's actually kinda magnifies the flow of love - whereever that comes from! LOL... I mean, I'm way imperfect, right? And still "workin' on it"... I have good/bad days... when my hubs is the source of everything wrong in my "world" - and I know that's just my own crankiness or another chunk of abusive patterns working itself loose... falling off... right on my foot. Sometimes I don't know it - until later. And then there are those totally cool spaces of time... days, sometimes as long as a week... when we're just tiptoe-ing through the tulips...
The thing is: the guys are just like us... but they're not going to "go there" and talk about it, because they believe they have this image to uphold: strong, protective, in charge, decisive... when really they're just scared we'll run screaming away from them -- because of who they are -- OR turn into controlling, demanding, divas. It's play - with no rules, really... but we all think there are rules and we're not sure exactly what they are.
-
Mother T:
Love is a fruit in season at all times, and within reach of every hand.
Really?
Anybody want to explain the difference between romantic love and spiritual love? Besides the sex.
Reading a dumb dating book that is quoting mother Teresa...COME ON!!!!! Nobody would have ever dated :shock: mother teresa NEVER.
----------------------------------------------
Noticing how hard I am on myself, like I feel that I have to be Marilyn Monroe or a porn star practically. On the flip side of it the guys that I have these mini flings with that never turn into relationship well, they are not exactly wealthy brad Pitts so why do I feel that I have to be sooo much (even if I have made more money in the past then they ever have in their lives). I feel that women have to be more than what men are. Men don't often make a lot of apologies for who they are. How come we have to live up to so much and at the same time hope we didn't end up with a philandering player.
------------------------------------------------
I don't know P, men come across to me as being rather impersonal and egotistical. That is how I see their worlds and their kind of relating---- that a woman is just a thing that is supposed to boost their social status and that all the "intimacy" stuff is all plastic and rehearshed and manipulative to get their sexual impulses relieved.
I look really hard but I'm having a hard time seeing anything more. Sometimes I think we are all just animals reproducing and pretending to be civilized humans.
I still have that old therapist dude who sort of comes on to me at our mutual music listening venue. I think he does it to work the room, go over talk to this female, now go chit chat with the female bartender.
I'm the weirdo dark horse I sit there alone and listen to music like it's some kind of medicine for my soul. I don't often drink but you know that french painting with the woman drainking absinthe (thats me on the inside)
-
Even at my age I'm afraid of rejection or to use a better less used term I'm afraid of losing love, of not being good enough, of some guy deciding that somebody else is easier, prettier, richer etc. etc. But I've got some kind of deep wounding related to this that makes me like a crazy person with issues because I really feel unlovable.
just so tired of life being a drag, want some sweetness something that makes life worth waking up for
-
Hear, HEAR.
You're feeling really human and really fragile.
How to step forth and also be safe.
You're also so smart that you're BORED with your circumstances.
I think boredom + stress is the worst kind.
Hops
-
Even at my age I'm afraid of rejection or to use a better less used term I'm afraid of losing love, of not being good enough, of some guy deciding that somebody else is easier, prettier, richer etc. etc. But I've got some kind of deep wounding related to this that makes me like a crazy person with issues because I really feel unlovable.
Good insight, Boat! I think you've just about got your "knot" of tangled emotional yarn sorted and wound neatly into individual colors. That of course, is one of the tasks before creating something new from the old yarns. You'll probably start getting some ideas about what to "make" before that's completely all done.
Some things, I believe, we'll never know for sure... I mean, being able to connect present difficulties with past "programming" and experience. I don't know about you... but I certainly hit areas of deep fatigue - where I just didn't care anymore (for the moment) about sorting it all out. And good lord - don't you know that itself was another friggin' "symptom"? Another bit of perverse parental programming to undo? I needed someone to teach me how to take care of myself. As an adult.
In that, since my emotional needs didn't ever show up on my mom's radar screen (unless I was physically ill, I didn't show up - period - except as a "problem") ------ since my experience was that no one cared about my needs, I didn't even have the ability to say what they were, what I needed... and almost zilch awareness that I was experiencing a "need". My T had to teach me how to recognize my own needs; in my late 40s, for cryin' out loud. Then, we worked on convincing me that I was allowed to have those needs... that it was OK to ask to have the needs filled... that the answer isn't always "no, not now - go away - you're bothering me" or "So, you think you deserve that, do you? Well, here's what I want you to do for me first... and I'm not promising I'll take care of you in return; you're just making up this emotion anyway; KIDS DON'T HAVE THOSE KINDS OF EMOTIONS..."
I thank Hops for pointing out the website that described "Invalidation" in such clear detail, it smacked me upside the head with the realization of just how far my mom objectified me... I might as well have been a doll, for all she understood that I had independent thoughts, feelings, etc. The dog's need to go out was more important than my existence or what I needed. No wonder I went through a phase where I believed I had the superpower to be invisible...
And every single thing I had tried to "be" -- hiding my own real feelings even from myself -- every attempt I made to be good enough, perfect enough, that surely this time she'd see and actually care about me... see what I was sacrificing for her... so that she'd love me...
FAILED. And so, I believed that this meant I really wasn't good enough; I wasn't even able to hide my own "crazy"... because that's what I called those jacked up conflicted feelings & needs & anxiety & trying to be what she needed all the time (throwing myself under the bus in the process) - things I didn't even have words in my head for... I didn't deserve the relationships and connectedness with other people, because I was such a freak not even my own mom cared about me**.
I DIDN'T MATTER. Not even to me. Because instead of mattering to myself, I'd made an obsessive crusade about getting my mother - or even someone else, instead of my mother - to love me. I really didn't know... that I was allowed to matter to myself and that I could love me; take care of me. When I got comfortable with that, I realized that "love" and caring about someone didn't involve competition... tricks to "win"... power struggles... it wasn't a transaction at all (like I learned from my mom). It was something completely outside of that kind of definition.
**At least, being a sarcastic and junior cynic at the age of 12/13... that was the conclusion I came to in my "Kid Emotional Logic". And guess what? Very few people tried to change my mind or tell me I had it just a bit wrong... That the conclusion that I was so scarred from that awful relationship with my mom that I was now unlovable... was wrong. But, believing something about yourself for 30+ years... takes a long time to shake that thought/feeling habit... I've needed years of reminders and am only now getting close to believing something that's more true about me... than that old warped, kid-logic idea.
Of course, I do tend to cling to my old ideas - won't just let it go - because I've always defined my Inner Identity with what I think I know... about me. Operative phrase "think I know". I've come to appreciate those moments when I find out: everything I think I know, is wrong. Sometimes, it's really really really really good to be wrong. But my mom will never know that because that possibility simply doesn't exist in her reality -- her loss; not mine.
---------------- Sorry for the personal slant to the reply, Boat. That's the shortest way I know how to explain - say - make the points; pass on the ideas... that might matter to your "yarn sorting". Not everything in my experience will apply to you - and definitely not the same way it did for me... but I do know that this idea of the power of this kind of invalidation, when we are little trusting naive kids seems to cause a lot of the same "symptoms" in people. That in turn causes a kind of suffering - not the Buddha-kind - because a NEED is not the same as a DESIRE. N-Ex #2 tried to brainwash me into believing that all emotions were a type of "ego" - therefore BAD - and we should never, ever allow an emotion to be important enough to become a "need"....
... I didn't my T to teach me what the smell of bullshit was. But Ns do this alot - they will BS a whole philosophy of life or religion or spirituality to support their N-ness.
-
I realized that "love" and caring about someone didn't involve competition... tricks to "win"... power struggles... it wasn't a transaction at all (like I learned from my mom). It was something completely outside of that kind of definition.
Thank you, (((((((((((Amber)))))))))))).
Really.
Good reminder and great timing.
love,
Hops
-
I have friends from highschool who have married and are living normal lifes not (alone and pathetic and gyspy like) THEY DID NOT AGONIZE or think deeply about their relationships. I can't believe how easy it is for some people and so it makes me think LOVE is not meant to be for me because it isn't this hard for everybody and if it's this hard it means there is something really really wrong with me.
(one person I knew since 8th grade lied and told me her father was a meteorologist) Her father was really an accountant.
She said she was going to marry a doctor. Well she is now married to somebody who has a PhD in mathematics and he studies weather and atmosphereic events. Isn't that strange? She is not particularly academic or anything and it just makes me wonder why did she so easily find what it seemed she was looking for??????? She also thought that I was a lesbian...(nice right).
I mean I know it's immature of me but something makes me ask "what makes her lovable and me not lovable?" What makes her able to predict a good future for herself and NOW she is living it. It's no longer a conceptual future.
So relationship stuff. Was reading a dating site tha said something about long lasting commited relationship blah blah.
My mind juxtaposes this concept along with the concept that I feel and in reality it is true (therapists confirm this) that in life a person really doesn't have as much control over our lifes that we would like to or that society says we have control. So I guess there is this sense there are uncontrollable elements and somehow this long lasting commited relationship stuff is contingent on out of control factors. Somehow it's opposed to the basic concept of real love isn't it.
So many conflicts about what people say love is an can be and the reality of what it takes to get and create this love.
ALSO the concept that being commited to having love in ones life is = to really loving one Self.....??? This stuff sort makes sense but doesnt add up totally in my demented mind. I wish I had thought about this stuff when I was younger. I feel like it's sort of late in the game to be paying attention to it now.
Thinkin out loud here that's all.
-
Yup, I agree.
I remember when I was younger I read all these magazine articles that were trying to help women recognize what they needed and didn't need. I think, in a way, those "silly" exercises were helpful. I remember one was to have a simple index card in your purse (that you prepared BEFORE you met someone). On that card were 3 columns (that had required being serious about your own happiness).
Must-Haves
Likes
Deal-Breakers
Any verbal imaginative person can really create a massive list of the fantasy mate. But if you're limited to an index card, it gets a lot simpler. And then, I think, the rest is Releasing the Outcome.
For me:
A) Must-Haves: Honesty, Kindness, Humor, Monogamy, Financial stability
B) Likes: Flexible, Fit, Enough shared interests for meaning (compatible spirituality and community) and pleasure (e.g., music, travel, animals, art), education
C) Deal-Breakers: Lying, Addiction, N-ism, Non-Monogamy, Major Health neglect, Mysogyny, Major sports addiction, critical spirit
I think if all the As are Present and a few of the Bs (plus surprises)--and I just keep creating opportunities for myself to meet as many people as it takes who have those, and patiently say No to anyone who reveals one of the Deal-Breakers, eventually there's a chance I'll meet someone with all of A, a few of B, and then...chemistry might happen too. (That's the unknown, and that has to be okay with me, or why bother.)
Hmmm! Glad you asked since that gave me a chance to think about my invisible "index card" again.
I actually remember women checking out their cards in the ladies' room, just to make sure they weren't getting overexcited about a date and leaving their brains behind.
xo
Hops
-
I already have a slip of paper, I took it to church with me and prayed about it, feeling it out to see if I should even be focusing on something like this and I think yes I should allow space in my life for this possibility . All it says is careful, thoughtful, kind, generous, understanding, faithful. 5 descriptions--I wanted to leave a lot of room for a real person instead of an ideal
When I was younger there was no space in my life for the other and I was not brave enough to look at my own emotions that came up. I was terrified of men when I was younger. I could not handle somebody getting close to me. Honestly I could not handle intimacy and I don't even specifically mean like sexual intimacy...I mean like emotional intimacy I could not handle other's strong emotions I don't know why. Maybe its a nar-trait or something. Anywho. I'm admitting to myself the difficulty that I have.
-
So worried about being lovable and good enough that I forget to ask myself is this person deserving of me? Does this person deserve my time and energy?
How much time and effort is too much/ too little to give in the start?
--------------
So many people talk about the important of honesty their relationships. I mean like everybody says this. IT makes me wonder has every person experienced a lot of dishonesty in the past. Is dishonesty rampant???
Just wondering.
Other question: Are people learning social behavior from each other or are they on some level taking out on others the exact same thing that has been done to themselves. The past couple guys I had flirtations with I noticed that they behaved towards me in the same way that they had described women behaving towards them(the guy). To my mind I think "If someone did this to you and you didn't like it so much, then why are you doing it to me now?".
Is it some attempt to get even, acting out, leveling their own playing field-elevating their own self esteem again or are they just acting out a social behavior that they have learned. I wonder.
-
Thanks Boat - I do think you're diving right down to the pearl - the straight route.
So I just wanna respond on one thing right now. That is the perception you've stated that "normal" people are somehow inherently lovable... and you're not... because to you - it appears so easy and natural for them. "Appears" is the key word, here.
Don't make the mistake of believing what people - couples - show to the outside world as being their honest reality. It's never quite as easy and perfect as it appears. There is a lot of compromise, give and take, loving someone in spite of their unlovable traits. I don't know how many times I've seen "perfect couples" crash & burn in the most spectacular way. And other couples last... together... their whole lives.
Don't make the make the mistake of attributing more goodness or lovableness to others, than you would yourself. The answer to the question of why you're not in a relationship like that, doesn't have anything to do with your inherent lovable self. You're on the right track, asking if someone is a person you want to spend time with; be around. Then, ask... how do you feel when you're around and with them? If you're people watching some day, it might be fun to ask yourself if that person - or that one - is someone you might feel comfortable and happy around... just to try to get an idea of what attracts you; what you "like" in other people.
One of the things that is horribly frustrating and maddening, is that there isn't any recipe that is consistently applicable to any two given people... a one size fits all recommendation or absolute rules... about relationships. I've noticed, that even among the same two people - over time - what "works" in the relationship necessarily changes, too. A relationship - the thing that exists between two people - has a life of it's own and each person contributes to that relationship, nurtures it, collaborates within it... while each person continues to exist as a separate independent, whole person.
Paradox in that, is that it's usually really hard to define what "works", simply because it's always changing; fluid. That's where the "magic" part comes in for me. I don't know what other word works as well as magic... chemistry is close... but it's the combination of two whole people that creates something real between them... than holds them together.
-
And now we are back to mysticism. :lol:
(just call me smart @ss)
-
Extention of Ego and Social Status...that is part of dating also. I'm not going to do anything to elevate a mans social status if that is what he is needing. I'm probably not going to boost a guys ego either. I just want somebody who enjoys being with me and doesnt need a lot of ego and social status boosting. IS this unreasonable I ask myself because we are all social beings to degrees. I don't know its cloudy.
I want to feel like it's (us) instead of (all of us). I don't want to feel like I am dating a guys friends and family and co-workers also. ??
IS DATING CONFUSING FOR EVERYBODY?? Is confusion about dating a bad sign? Does confusing ever even out into something that makes sense in a crazy way or does confusion = failure, no relationship is going to occur out of it??
Where is my therapist!!! :)
Is it all suppose to feel smooth and like it makes sense? I'm too old to be confused right!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.futurescopes.com/finding-date/689/finding-and-dating-men-looking-long-term-relationship-or-marriage
Relationship Advice Articles. I like reading this stuff but it all makes my head spin. If I composed an encylopedia of this stuff and were to study it like a student it wouldn't help it all.
This article says finding a man ready to commit is like finding the Loch Ness Creature. But who even wants the Loch Ness monster?
Is a man worth it? I mean love is worth it yes....but is a man worth it...I think no. --I don't understand this conflict
I don't think I even want somebody ready to commit that would freak me out. I just want love and respect. But if somebody is not ready to commit that probably means they are not ready to love and respect......Eh???
Relationships are not conceptual are they? A person can use the terms love and respect but those ideas whereas (what word)
are just IDEAS mental formations thoughts....I think dating happens outside the realm of thoughts and our minds even though the minds are involved. DATING is a complicated social interaction right!!!! Like negotiating political peace or something, takes charm and smarts and diplomacy and bribes and promises and contracts, treaty, trade of goods. It's like a FULL TIME JOB for the people who can do it right.
I'm just going to try to do the things I like to do.
-
Hi Boat - I just got really busy, but I'm going to come back later and respond.
For now: thinking about relationships is always really confusing for me. Feeling is way simpler. Does hubs smell good today? Is there a twinkle in his eyes while he's talking to me, teasing me or suggesting something? Are we on the same wavelength today? Am I listening and really hearing him? Is he really listening to me? That is enough most days. Some days, our relationship is simply an emotional "why not"? and often, for me... these are the best days.
tt: vegetable lollipops!! LOL. Hubs has been experimenting with all kinds of jello shooters (which is weird, because we have a fridge full of them... 'coz no one's in the mood to eat any; I think he just likes playing mad scientist)... and he tried a bloody mary recipe that would make a great marinade... but NOT a jello shooter.
-
...but is a man worth it...
Worth what, Boat? I'm curious what downside you anticipate "enduring" for a little love & respect & someone to walk a path through life with you? My guy like magazines, toys, neat things, and is a spectacular bargain hunter/gatherer. Expert in Math. Doesn't leave his clothes laying around the house. CAN be... when he wants to be... just as organized and anal as I can - just differently than myself. Has learned it won't kill him to do the dishes and that "how" their done is way less important to me, than just the fact that someone else besides me does them, sometimes. He defers to me quite a bit on normal day to day decisions, when I'd like him to make some of them. He is an attention-dependent glutton and never seems to be satiated or even comfortable being on his own. That's my guy's downside... and trust me, he's worth it!!!!! Even if there are days I want to literally run screaming from the house just to be alone and think my own thoughts for longer than 5 minutes.
Because he loves me; he listens to me and my babble... he helps me think about big complex things that make my head hurt... he really, really likes it when I'm happy & playing with him, instead of by myself... and he's trying to figure out what the magic formula is... and I could overlook a whole bunch of the things that "make me crazy" anyway... when I remember that I don't want him to change or be what he's not; I love him for the big little boy that he is... and that's quite enough to base a relationship on & make up everything else from there:
he loves me and I love him.
Oh... and "A" man... is overly general - I've found they're really not interchangeable, after "trading in" a couple. And there's no one "type" that a girl should look for, either... tall, dark & handsome can be extremely N and a vile, demanding perfectionist person to live with.
I'm not saying that reading all the dating books and thinking about this topic is a waste of time - not at all. I do think a lot of them miss the warm, fuzzy, mystical stuff... the "magic" part of relationships a lot of times. What they do really well though, is provide a whole lot of information about how other people think about relationships and dating; what's important to these other people... and when our FOOs did very little to model how men/women interact in a healthy fashion... when all we learned was what we didn't like; or what was wrong... we need some way to learn the "social" conventions and values and ways of thinking about this.
Then: evaluate, try on, experiment, sort & toss that doesn't work for you... keep what does.
May the arrows of Cupid fly true... and connect you to a "man" who doesn't fit any of your expectations... and that you don't WANT to live without.
-
Thank ya P.
I liked reading the story of you and your husband. How and where did you guys meet?
...but is a man worth it...
Worth what you ask? Well P that is a very good question, I never quite looked at it from that angle before.
I suppose I anticipate a few negative things. Mainly because I have never had a really good relationship with somebody only occassional lighthearted fun flights of fancy that usually prove that the guy is pretty slutty etc. the player thing.
I guess I feel that maybe I have to pretend that I like watching football, have interest in dirt bikes and wrestling as a compromise and I may need to attempt to wear high heels even though I never do. Etc. Also more seriously some relationships morph into something mean spirited, heartless.
-
Yes, there are lots of stories of relationships gone bad. I wonder how many stories are out there about the good ones?
See my post above about relationships NOT being a transaction kind of thing... if you have to be anything except you, to have the relationship... if you have to conform to some "idea"... it's already not going well. Sometimes those feelings come from our own collection of dusty, obsolete ideas... but if it's an explicit requirement to participate in the relationship... sigh... some guys really don't know any better.
Hubs & I aren't a perfect couple, by a long shot. I think we both appreciate a little insecurity... danger... excitement so we make-believe it's there and make jokes about how I'm gonna divorce him because of his stacks of magazines and clutter-kingdom garage. But we talk, plan, compromise and share just about everything that the other one is going through... and we get in each other's way, we babysit each other needlessly, we constantly try to improve the other... and irritate the other no end! It was a huge breakthrough for me, when I finally learned that we could be mad as hell at each other... and it wasn't the end of the relationship. We weren't happy... but neither of us was going anywhere either.
The relationship can grow, flex, bend... adapt to life-crap... and while neither one of us has a strong history of "commitment" in the ideal sense, we don't have any desire to go anywhere else, either. In the practical sense... we just like being together and taking care of each other. Not an awful basis for a relationship, right? No mushy, mucky, icky stuff... stuff no real people can live up to all the time.
A little romantic mush from time to time might not be a bad thing tho....
-
Alright, I feel that I've made this thread all about me, going to stop on this thread now. It was just a hot topic for me.
-
Well, I don't mind Boat. Your questions, ideas etc help me think things through too. And your opinions are refreshing and interesting. I've heard my own so long I forget to question them, sometimes... and they're boringly wrong a lot, too. I just can't see that until I get it "out" somewhere... and sometimes, someone will come along and point the obvious thing I've been ignoring or blind to...
I mean, this is a big life "issue" for a lot of us... because of what we've been through. And there are lots & lots & lots of different issues within the one topic... only lots of different people can bring those up.
-
Well I think I'm going through a mini crash course on my "romantic" gunk. Today I'm finding out that trust is a big issue. It is for a lot of people I guess. I mean it's sort of a no-brainer but now I am feeling how trust is a big deal not just thinking it. I'm glad I'm going through whatever this is--intense churning of beliefs/feelings/habits/--because I feel that I'm starting to get something.
One thing I am noticing is that people like us tend to be more self-reflective and maybe even more honest with ourselves compared with people who consider themselves to be "normal" because if you think you're normal then why ever try to improve yourself. I'm starting to find aspects of myself that I value and admire in contrast to some of the people I meet in the dating scene.
-
Boat, you are a very dear duck (and I think now and then I type Bones, who is also a dear duck, when I mean Boat, but I have faith y'all will ignore the senility...)
I loved reading this:
I'm starting to find aspects of myself that I value and admire in contrast to
Except I'd chop of the last 3 words and really concentrate on thinking about this REGARDLESS...
I'm starting to find aspects of myself that I value and admire
in contrast to
Hope that made sense,
Hops
-
Yes makes perfect sense.
-
Hey Boat!
I just tripped over a big, giant scientific/psych "effect"... it was right in front of me, all the time. Actually, in a magazine on losing weight... but before I dive right in, gonna do some reading - research... make sure I think I understand the connections between awful parents and the effect... then I'll be back. Think it goes right here in this thread...
called the "what the hell effect" -- yes, that's it's technical name!!!!!
Thought you'd like this one...
-
The heck you say!
-
OK; a little grumpy today... because apparently I don't speak in such a way that hubs knows I'm simply making a statement - he takes it personally; that I'm commenting on him. He fell asleep on the couch... and I when I nudged him, and woke him... I also squinted at the clock (I'd been drifting off too) and said: It's not even 8 oclock.
He told me I was making fun of him for falling asleep; I told him - I'm sorry you feel that way, but here's what I meant...
And he STILL thinks this, this morning, that I was making fun of him.
This crap makes me crazy; I feel like I'm speaking in a foreign language and can't make myself understood. Do you guys think I'm speaking in a code?? I work hard to say specifically what I mean... constantly editing and watching my words... so I WON'T be misunderstood...
-
Well, FW... that is certainly one of my trigger points. Being believed about what/how I feel, in particular.
There is more to this, tho... stuff I can change (my stuff that is)... and some things I can ask him to do/not do and why it might be important to me. We've gotten into the usual married-couple habits... and some of those habits habitually hit my trigger points -- but I didn't realize it before, nor did I think they might be reinforcing some "stuckness" for me... on things I want to change. It was all just hunky-dory before therapy... before regaining a relationship with my Self... and silly me; I expected hubs and the rest of the world to simply automatically see & recognize that... and adjust accordingly. It's not just Nmoms who don't do this - it's the whole world, no matter how much I still need someone to do that. Now the old relationship "games"... the silly ways we interact and play with each other - well, they need to adapt too.
I snapped his head off (verbally) last night, as he hit me with the parent-child game again last night in his communication to me. He needs to "get with the program"... he needs a report on where I am right now and what I DON'T need anymore... and to know what I do want from him. It's not his fault. I did tell him a long time ago what I wanted/needed... then that changed, but it kept changing too... metamorphosis is a process... so I haven't yet communicated at that level, the "who I am now"... which is why he keeps tripping my triggers. It might even be a welcome breath of fresh air to the relationship... at least some of it. He is trying SOOO hard these days to participate in the chores of daily life and meet me halfway on my expectations for his participation.
I don't often lash out like that anymore at anyone, much less him. But the parent-child crap combined with his constant attention-stroke seeking neediness was just too much for me. It's the old making me responsible for his crap - too - then bitching about how I take care of it. I'm not having any of that crap anymore. From anyone. For now.
Like I said - grumpy.
-
I've got to admit, I don't get it P (then there are a lot of things I don't get), you wake up your husband because its early in the evening and you don't want him to fall asleep yet or something...then he thinks you are making fun of him?? You are a bit pissy for whatever reason. WHY are you grumpy?
I'm sorry but I don't see where the conflict is in this interaction...maybe I'm being dull but I'm missing something here P.
I would say something like this maybe just needs to blow over as a non-event...but then again I'm no expert.
You could say to him that you LUV him, (kiss), and that you feel irritable, AND most importantly you are going to immediately join a book group, START a new workout routine that includes going somewhere and walking someplace new...or going to a museum....or JUST go take a class any class....do some ZUMBA or something.... You don't really need to negotiate this with him do you? Can't you just sign up for a class and tell him casually as you are on your way out the door....."I've got a class to attend...here's some frozen pizza".....a minor commitment class....ANYTHING....cooking class....rock climbing.....investing....?
What the book and binoculars.....I'm going BIRD WATCHING.....I'll be back in three hours.....you can take a nap while I'm gone.
-
OK, so maybe "grumpy" is a code-word for a volatile cocktail of more basic emotions... and maybe I was grumpier than I knew!
Boat - you're right, you did miss part of the picture. Hubs gets serious neck cramps when he falls asleep on the couch - sitting up; head lolling to one side or the other... or all scrunched up, in an awkward position. I was waking him, to prompt him to go lie down and stretch out more comfortably.
FW - I was in that fuzzy state between full consciousness and sleep, too. I think I had "come to" after sliding off into a short doze, when I realized hubs didn't look comfy at all. So my comment about the time, was an incredulous observation about both of us being sleepy so early. Easily explainable by the early hour we woke up that day, too. I'm gonna come back to that...
It was after he'd complained I was making fun of him, and also after I'd explained that I wasn't... and what I was doing... and he wasn't accepting it, that the "sorry you feel that way" came out. Because I need a boundary with him of this sort, on a daily basis. It's all low-level ground clutter stuff - each one doesn't have much significance - but it takes a cumulative toll on me, to "hold up" under this constant nitpicky stream of trying to make me responsible, accountable and "in charge of" his state of being. I really don't want to be - this is counter to one of my basic needs from this type of relationship, knowing that I can rely on him to pitch in... be part of the process... participate in decision-making... and manage his own crap, existential or otherwise. I'm looking for an equal partner, in other words with his own particular skill-set and differences, to collaborate with... and hubs does rise to this expectation in splendid form... sometimes.
That said, I agree with you about the distance and coldness in the "sorry..." remark. It wasn't helpful in that situation and unfortunately - distance and withdrawal is my relational "secret weapon" or refuge. I don't like this particular "hangover" from coping with my FOO and have been working on it. Some days are better than others, as far as my ability or capacity. Probably the most frequently used word in the house is "sorry"... and it's covering the gamut, the range... that Lighter so brilliantly connected to the meaning of "spicy" in any given situation. And it's used too often, to excuse what I think is an unconscious form of power struggle.
I did speak to him, about what I feel is a parent-child interaction/expectation pattern between us. He "babysits" me way too much for my comfort - and expects me to treat him in the same fashion. Like he'll tell me HOW to say things and HOW I should feel, even. How romantic, you know? [He knows this is an anger-trigger; been pointed out many times... but I guess he feels it shouldn't apply to him. SIGH] My hero... who I have to wake up and tell him to go to bed, where he's comfortable... a grown man who I expect to take care of me when I need him to, can't even take care of himself (according to my version of wisdom).
And yes, we're probably both grumpy about this under the surface stuff... and I'm frustrated because I want to change it... and he thinks it's just hunky-dory... it's all good, from where he sits. So, yes... the option to just get myself out of the house on a regular basis is the sensible thing to do. But even that gets turns into me having his emotions in my power... because he'll ask "where've you been?" "I was lonely" and he won't even feed himself... until I get home... much less find something to do for himself. My absence and non-babysitting approach is read as "you don't care about me".
No, I don't handle that kind of subtle hostility...passive aggressiveness, very well. When it's a constant sub-text to the relationship, it's like chinese water torture... and since he will go to extremes to avoid conflict, or won't believe me when I tell him my feelings... when we do talk about it... I'm feeling not heard, pretty intensely. Important only in the functional sense... i.e, taking "care of"... "caretaking" him. The whole co-dependency cycle...
NO WONDER I'm "grumpy" and touchy... well. Glad I was finally able to spit that out so I can look at it. Maybe I'm wrong... maybe this has more to do with hubs' ego & retirement than it does with anything else...
Thanks guys. More thinking, looking, talking and then I'll come back to this.
-
Hubs gets serious neck cramps when he falls asleep...in an awkward position. I was waking him, to prompt him to go lie down and stretch out more comfortably.
....I need a boundary with him....it takes a cumulative toll on me, to "hold up" under this constant nitpicky stream of trying to make me responsible, accountable and "in charge of" his state of being. I really don't want to be - ....manage his own crap[/b], existential or otherwise
Hey PR,
Sometimes when I look at stuff I've written like an editor later, things jump out. Thought I'd try to do this for you in case it helps. What jumped out at me was a contradiction, and I thought you might not have seen that because of the volume of energy you felt around this event. (Which was a great microcosm story to tell. And thank you for it.)
What I noticed off the bat was -- he didn't make you, you CHOSE to be in charge of "prompting him". He's a grownup! If he gets neck cramps, that may motivate him to change his habit. Or not. So then, he has neck pain. Ahh. Well, it's his body.... How lovely it would be for you to feel serene about NOT correcting, fixing, being responsible for his own natural consequence. Even stupid ones. In choosing to wake him to "prompt him" -- I wonder if unconsciously (despite your conscious desire to NOT experience this) you put yourself in the role of parent?
(Of course, yank him out of traffic if need be. :lol: But a small personal choice like that with non-fatal consequences? If it's important enough to him to avoid neck cramps, he'll figure it out. Or maybe he's gone passive because he's gotten a little too MUCH instruction? People can become more helpless. (I know I have. And I've set my D up for this too...which is probably why I'm noticing it in your anecdote. Pot and Kettle and who cares, if we all benefit.)
Anyway, maybe the boundary you really need to set is with yourself -- learning to turn off (or abide with or compassionately observe) your own urge to be in charge and give instruction and take control.
So--him trying to "make you" responsible. In this instance, he didn't. You made yourself responsible. He was just asleep.
I believe you completely that you feel a strong need to rely on him to manage his own crap. And perhaps this was an isolated instance, not part of an interaction pattern. Bet not, though. Mine never are. I think the focus on him, and your frustration, probably comes more from the sabotaging thing (that works against that goal) that's coming from you--how deeply uncomfortable it is to deal with and release your desire to control.
I completely understand why controlling things/people is a survival drive in you. Makes perfect sense. And in that way that even things we don't want to do to ourselves develop for very logical-psyche and healing-from-crap reasons...maybe what was once survival has become handicap. (It is for me anyway.)
But that's what got illuminated for me in reading this post. Thank you for sharing the story. It's just amazing to me how our lives and our issues appear in the humblest anecdotes. We're like freakin' billboards about who we are and we can't get back far enough to see what they say.
(But friends do, sometimes. I have been informed that I "edit everything" -- one of the more memorable lines, delivered without annoyance. But...blush. BUSTED. What I'm trying to get at is, if I'm at all or partially correct in my observations...I hope you'll look at whatever feeling pops up with compassion too.)
hugs
Hops
-
You folk-es are the bestest.
Somewhere along the line of talking about this, I realized I was a big part of "what happens" - which in turn, sets off the stuff that bothers me... that I'm trying to change, or at least know I want to change about me...
but I'm all tangled up right now. I could write pages... and not say anything. Your feedback is helpful (and a lot clearer than I am right now).
-
I'm controlling, too. And completely blind to it half the time.
I interpret it verrrry differently when I'm actually in the grip of being controlling (or "editing" everything in view) -- I tell myself that it's anxiety, caring, desire to help, and I'm often terribly perplexed at why others can't just SEE that my insight is amazing, my advice is spot-on, and my intuition is worth its weight in diamonds. And if they'd listen to me, well then they'd be all better!
Meanwhile, controlling myself? Feh. Not HALF as interesting as editing everybody else. As I write I am avoiding 2 months' worth of paperwork and unopened envelopes. Wondering if the lady I'm hiring to help me with this stuff is going to feel judgmental when she arrives in an hour. I ponder all the time my lack of self-control when it comes to that basic adult part of life. Triggers a ton of shame and frustration, but not nearly enough change.
In fact (back to the thread topic) -- one reason I sometimes retreat from the idea of dating is fear that if someone else gets to know how many blank spots there are in my life that result from me not controlling ME ... they'd not like it.
So this here Pot thinks she recognizes Kettles sometimes, but I'm really grateful we're banging around in this kitchen together. Something's getting cooked that hopefully, in the long run, might be good for our health.
love,
Hops
-
Hops, what do you mean blank spots?
-
Hi Boat, or Tree (shoot, I liked "Boat" :)) --
By blank spots I mean areas of responsible proper behavior that I think most other people DO, and I barely do, or don't do, such as:
--consistently cleaning
--consistently paying bills on time and organzing paperwork
--consistently exercising
--consistently eating grownup food
What happens is, for my job -- I function in spurts but extended creative pretty succsessful spurts, so despite my deficits, I'm the only one in my company who can do what I do (the writing, the "voice" we present to the customers, and the company's public profile, which is a multi-page site with loads of blog posts, and which drives a lot of business) as well as I do it. (And my boss is accustomed to having me polish his writing into something that can be posted.) So there...the blank spots merge in or get outweighed by the roles I play well.
For my home, well, nobody is inspecting my room or bath or sloppy study or messy piles of mail. But a life partner would not find this acceptable behavior, I think. It feels like a "blank spot" to me, and I feel as though I "get away with it" -- because literally there's nobody to edit ME. Nobody watching, supervising, etc. So if I'm going to fill in the blank spot I have to actually exercise some self discipline which, other than to retain my job...I just don't display much of.
TT -- thank you. The lady just left and she was delightful and helpful and a decent person so I'm feeling quite hopeful that she's going to help me build a system that works for me.
Thank you, too, for the reminder about shame and how pointless it is to make a big f-ing SECRET of the weaknesses I feel vulnerable about. I really do agree with you...I'm just too old to want to make a big pretend-self to impress anybody (including anybody male)...so thank you. Reminds me to continue to practice self-love. When I do remember that, I am willing to laugh at myself, speak the truth about what I'm good at and not...and you're right, let the chips fall.
I was affected by your description over the nearly-servile doting. I really can imagine that. First, i can imagine my own "squick-meter" running high if I didn't know where the behavior came from. What's lovely is that you weren't fixated on JUDGING him for it, you actually wanted to understand what it was about! Bravo.
I remember I used to, way back when young, feel freaked out by the degree of doting my father did to my mother. I saw it as servile and found it maddening. Getting older...I put together that HIS model of a husband was his own father, who had been devoted to his mother to a near-saintly degree (even after she was paralysed, voiceless and bedridden for 13 years after a stroke). What was funny was how this bled into my Dad's present...my mother had the constitution of a Clydesdale but a great appetite for being a princess, and their unconscious needs made them an incredible "fit." Once I understood that this made perfect interior sense to my Dad, in a way I don't think he was very aware of...I lost my judgement and contempt and saw he was living out a logic from his psyche that had grace to him.
Yoicks, if I hired a male to do this who had 2 teeth and a sense of humor...I'd NEVER be able to concentrate!
hugs,
Hops
-
Thanks, FW...
You're right, it sounds ridiculous.
But when I'm anxious (my D arrives tomorrow so I'm a little off balance) I think in perfectionistic terms.
I'll post about that on my other "D" thread at some point, not this one.
It's stupid. Thank you.
Hops
-
The social scientists have recognized this tendency to believe that "other people" eat properly, exercise regularly, have Better Homes & Gardens perfect abodes, and are extremely well-organized and self-disciplined. Statistically speaking, we exaggerate what we believe others are like and do... discounting ourselves... for both good/bad attributes. (No matter our backgrounds, parenting, trauma etc)
It's as if we use one set of judgements & standards & values for ourselves and another for "other people". Sometimes, we're the perfect ones and everyone else needs to get a clue... sometimes it's the other way round. To a social scientist, an N is simply someone who always believes they're perfect & that there's something flawed with everyone else. Despite data, evidence, etc even.
I've migrated in my reading to social science (which is where my interests in human behavior started oh so many years ago...) and I think I can finally see why I'm a bit "tangled up and confused" right now. It's like thinking in two different languages that have some overlap... say French and Spanish. From combining what I now know about psych (which will never be enough) and dysfunctional parenting and PDs with Social Science, there is a "bigger universe" with new patterns and clues emerging in my thinking, by overlaying the social science concepts onto the psych... and finding consistency, differences, etc.
Hops:
this last book I read dives into just what "self-discipline" is... what "willpower" is/isn't. I was hoping that I might learn something from the book, that I could put to use in my own struggles, you know? To construct what Gaining Strength always asked for: a how-to plan...
The dust hasn't settled yet on the creative integration of these new-er ideas in my head... but I am certain now, that "willpower" and "self-discipline" AREN'T value-based character attributes that people either have or don't have. Rather, they are skills and habits that people develop and the seed bed for those skills starts in childhood but most people work on this throughout their lifetimes - more intensely at some points, than others. So, to my way of thinking... everyone CAN learn these... degree of difficulty, natural ability and all that, will apply - but it can be done.
Where some of the "overlay" happens... is that thoughts and emotions are also involved in that learning... establishing and refining those skills. One emotion that was explained in some detail, was how shame fits into that process. And that often, say in the case of self-harm or self-sabotage habits, the shame actually generates the "energy" to keep the cycle going, in perpetuity. Which is one of the reasons those kinds of self-sabotage seem insurmountable and immutable - regardless of what is thrown at them.
Now, throw in relationships... in my instance... and relationship/attachment issues... and hypersensitivity to external control/criticism/ and defense-mechanism "controlling" to protect myself... and we have a toilet bowl of volatile variables again. The "what the hell effect" - of throwing away all self-discipline, working toward self-selected goals... "giving up"... because one small slip-up or deviance from the goal = abject and total failure in the totalitarian regime of shame... this gets magnified and becomes a self-protective habit.
That totalitarianism... of black/white thinking... and the constant no-win double-bind of shame/not ever being "good enough" to earn the performance reward of accomplishment is what I find myself trapped in and unable to articulate most of the time. That wouldn't contribute to a disruption of "attunement" or sense of well-being or being understood.... noooooooooooooo.
</sarcasm>
This also kills my motivation - my "want-tos" - even my want to being aware of what I really need. That's the "Ego Depletion" effect and it's a secondary, even complimentary process that helps shame regain it's reign of despair and agony. So that, one is drained of inner resources and overwhelmed with real, physical, emotional and intellectual needs... and yet unable to return to the necessary equilibrium on one's own. The studies have shown that people's glucose levels drop during the Ego Depletion phase and just like a diabetic who's blood sugar has dropped too low... one is unable to help oneself... and OH LOOK.... that's an opportunity for shame to creep in again, isn't it?
Whatever the habit one is trying to "edit" and change... I also know (belatedly) you have to start with a complete assessment of "where you are right now"... your starting point. Fusing in what we've all learned here... some self-compassion is a good combination with that assessment.
Remove or at least lower the shame-factor involved in where you calculate that starting point is, in comparison to other people (because there's a better than 50% chance you're distorting where others are). Shame is one of those tools that can backfire easily... like a double-edged sword. Shame can motivate... shame over-used or misused can deny one the chance to self-regulate, removes the satisfaction reward... the performance achievement... people shut down, give up, stop trying and then blame/shame themselves.
Then find a reward that fills part of one's genuine needs. Like a "down payment", no matter how small... it will start to add up. Pennies, to dollars, etc... drops of water to oceans...
I'm talking this out, as much for myself as to suggest the ideas to you, Hops. To make sure I understand it, myself. The "hope" in all this, is that even by making small, incremental changes... one creates the energy - and perhaps what I call the "space" - to add in more small changes, after enough time has elapsed to make the first changes "automatic"... in other words, habit or routine.
And over a longer period of time, those new habits become "definitions" of part of "who we are"... identity or self.
I THINK, anyway. I'm still experimenting; and so far... so good. I've been able to "edit" a few small habits... adding in a couple... they now seem normal... and I'm "programmed" to want to keep to those habits. I don't "like" not keeping to those habits. Now, to expand the scope... without shooting for the long-range goals and skipping all the steps in between that all-together create the ability to achieve the long-term goal.
Maybe the terms of this way of talking/thinking about these kinds of issues aren't going to be so useful to everyone. I found that working from and in the emotional space, well... it just didn't go far enough... and it missed some things entirely that I need to work on... and I was getting to be an emotional junkie - needing lots & lots of reassurance - but not "getting on with it.
-
((((((PR)))))) it always takes two to tango.
Maybe you don't have to change just you. Maybe what could change is the way the dance happens (the thing that happens between you, not to either of you). At least, being human, we can dance. :)
Right now, we're sort of circling each other, FW. I'm getting clearer about what I need - which feeds into those wants - I just can't open my mouth and say the words. I can't initiate... reach out & whirl him around... I'm not sure I have a clue how to dance... despite analyzing it to death and having lots & lots of practice... but little actual dancing.
And oh... how my mother hated me dancing, especially with my dad. She thought it was something putrid, lewd and awful... not at all what it was: innocent fun. And these days, I don't give a damn what my mom thinks... but there it is: the conflict between having fun, being a normal social person... and being like my mom, instead. Being PUNISHED for NOT being like my mom. Until I "broke" and pretended to be like her - so she would leave me the F alone. And it's still echoing around, and around in my head... with malevolent, stupid whispers... that I'm not allowed to have fun; not allowed to feel good and most definitely not allowed "Look at me, see what I can do"... because mom would feel bad; that would hurt her.
A mother's jealousy and envy and competition is the really ugly thing here. Not my dad & me jitterbugging...
-
.. but there it is: the conflict between having fun, being a normal social person... and being like my mom, instead. Being PUNISHED for NOT being like my mom. Until I "broke" and pretended to be like her - so she would leave me the F alone. And it's still echoing around, and around in my head... with malevolent, stupid whispers... that I'm not allowed to have fun; not allowed to feel good and most definitely not allowed "Look at me, see what I can do"... because mom would feel bad; that would hurt her.A mother's jealousy and envy and competition is the really ugly thing here. Not my dad & me jitterbugging...
I hear ya, Phoenix, I GET this one.
-
tt -
I was thinking of your plate portion example last night at dinner... both hubs & I have the same "training" as your hubs... to allow someone else "first pick" or the biggest portion*, etc. Try to imagine some of the insanely funny conversations we have as each defers to the other... then, from my perspective, understand that absolutely almost every task and decision we undertake as a couple comes down to this. He doesn't believe me (trigger) when I say I really don't care what we eat for this meal... and instead of making a choice by himself... and assuming the responsibility for making it... constantly "tugs" at me to be involved with and make the decision for him. And then, he inserts himself into the "how" (another trigger)... despite having deferred about the decision in the first place. And he never admits that my "how" might be just as effective as his "how"; his "how" is always better.
Then, when I can't take it anymore - I'm the drama queen. She's not very nice, the way I "play" that role. Think: Angelina Jolie as an assassin. I'm frustrated and would rather starve (or feed myself separately) than go through this kind of dance anymore. His response is always (predictably!!) "I'm sorry. I made you mad." And he'll even use this as a way to engage me in the same thing again, unless I've really gotten angry and left the scene. I think it's the "I'm sorry" and the implication that I've not been truthful in what I've told him, that really hits another trigger that I don't know so well. I think it's that he hasn't HEARD me - because of the roar of his own head-trip; his needs for someone else to be in charge... make all the decisions... be responsible/accountable. That trigger is one of feeling invisible; that I don't matter; I'm not important in his world - I don't register on his scope of environment as a real person, with real needs... only as the one who serves his needs.
[and that's really not a comfortable space for me... way too much time spent in it, already, in this lifetime; I keep looking and hoping that I'm misreading this.]
* this kind of reminds me of pack animal behavior... always deferring to the alpha. I don't WANT to be; I need someone else to be... alpha once in a while. Take turns. I told him all day yesterday I didn't feel well and didn't really know if I'm coming down with something or if it was something else (like decision-exhaustion or some kind of unconscious processing of what I've been thinking about lately). He didn't acknowledge that I was being serious, truthful...
until I accidentally got my plate tangled up with the skillet handle and dumped a taco on the floor in the "dog-zone". Then, he realized - finally - that I really didn't have it together. It was the truth, that I'd been telling him all day.
And I know that this kind of sub-optimal, physical & cognitive lack of well-being can also be my unconscious telling me - forcing me to deal with, express, find the words for one of those emotional needs. I don't think I have the energy right now to decode a cryptic message. I think Twigs needs to feel that she can trust hubs to take care of her/me... when we need him to... and not have to present a whole legal case to "prove" that it's necessary. And she's also afraid of this, at the same time because of the "careful what you wish for" effect she went through at the hands of her mom.
-
Oh, TT. You are a genius.
Please come coach my life.
there is a vast difference between harmless ingrained habits picked up from one's habitat and ingrained harmful habits learned in one's habitat/environment whether FOO or otherwise.
AND
the wisdom of this approach took root before I said yes, otherwise, I might have gone into this marriage following the same pattern that consumed my early life, looking for perfect love in the perfect man
AND
I am so, so happy for you.
love,
Hops
-
Bless you tt. I needed to hear that.
It helps. I'm getting closer to distilling the "issue" down to something really simple. Hopefully, that makes it easier to "fix" too.
-
So... yesterday... I'm looking for something to occupy my restless brain (so I stop obsessing on trying to find my motivation to exercise- LOL). It was quiet here - but I have all my bookmarks from when I was working and remembered someone's blog that I really enjoyed. Went to see if it was still up... and lo and behold... she's written a few things about "intimacy" and how in some families the practice supported a lot "psychological distance" - in other words, lots & lots of space between family members. She doesn't do therapy online - but I've found a lot of what she's written really helpful.
SEEMS... that in couples there can be a mismatch between the accustomed "comfort zone" of lots of psychological/emotional distance and emotional needs. There is no "right/wrong" or target compatibility to achieve... but that awareness of this helps both people figure out what they need... and how to do it... without this kind of friction or emotionally downward spiral that I've been talking about with hubs.
Lightbulb went on for me. OF COURSE, in dysfunctional FOOs (and she also uses the "family of origin" terminology) there is a vast horizon of psychological distance - what I've been saying is my "space". Whether that stems from one members' Nism, PDs, plain old ignorance, denial or neglect (or abuse)... the further away I was from my mom: the safer I was; the more I could hear "just my voice", the more I could take care of my own needs (including emotional) - because it was dicey to make any suggestions that my mom was responsible for these. So I grew up with this sort of disgruntled loner pattern of personality. Loner - because I'd been severely "burned" by trusting my mom to take care of me... and disgruntled because I NEEDED someone to care about me; that intimacy connection. This conflicted pattern got reinforced while I was healing, too.
I carved out even more space in my relationship w/hubs... with the justification that I was healing. I added in other people - here and in 3-D. And I started to learn that it was safe to trust again... but there was something missing and that something is "intimacy". Not sex and loving and snuggling per se... for me, my craving was for someone to SEE me, to KNOW me without imposing their idea of "who I am" on me based on their idea of how I "should" be... and to tell me honestly what they see vs my own idea (and abusively biased predjudiced opinion of "who I am"). The mirroring/marking of "attachment".
The kind of intimacy I'm talking about... is something hubs is really good at. We've been doing this all along -- and Amber, the "completely miss the obvious" girl -- hasn't seen it. And always - always - I'm not allowing the psychological distance between us to shrink. I feel like I spend a lot of time in his space; catering to his needs... you know? That builds that resentment cycle. But I don't let him get close to me, don't allow him the opportunity to cater to mine. My youngest D - the one who's engaged - was the only way I could see this. She went through a series of really awful relationships, after a horrible nightmare first marriage... and our conversations about relationships always came back to that odd parallel between us... that we couldn't just lay down our defenses and just TRUST the other person... because of how many times we trusted the WRONG person. I think we've both been able to see it in the other - my D and me - but she got to seeing it in herself, before I did. She and I do NOT have a lot distance in our relationship -- even when we don't communicate with each other for months.
So... long story short, I'm my own worst enemy here. I'm craving that intimacy and then backing off, withdrawing, into my own space... to take care of my own needs... and DAMN IT - this particular thing absolutely REQUIRES a second person.
Altogether now: DUH AMBER!!! LOL....
Here's the link to "therapydoc"... she's funny, warm, smart and even a little wacky at times... and that seems to get through my overly-complex, make simple things difficult, way too serious brain. There are quite few articles on intimacy - this one popped up - and after reading it, I gotta say.... OOOOOOO... how did she know that about me???
http://everyoneneedstherapy.blogspot.com/2007/02/intimacy-and-fear-of-exposure.html
Here's another, that actually provides an example of a "how-to" and touches on how PLAY figures into all this intimacy-relationship-stuff...
http://everyoneneedstherapy.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_everyoneneedstherapy_archive.html#114882442304150827
-
PS -
on the subject of psychological distance... this concept also explains why I've had to work so hard on hostessing. It's because I feel that psych-space (it's a feeling for me)... the sanctified "safe zone"... has been invaded, when there are other people in it and I exhaust myself running around trying to make a perfect experience for each person. Fortunately - most of the people who've stayed - "got it" even when I didn't... and they're helping by giving me opportunities to practice. I've gotten a lot more comfortable having people in my house - without killing myself in the process. (OK... so I'm still a little over-compensating and perfectionstic... but it's nowhere near as unconscious and totally overwhelming as it used to be; I can go to the door in my fuzzy pants when we're just lazy and being couch-potatoes... without being too self-conscious to make sense; I don't have to be the activity director, waitress & housekeeper - I can actually have fun too and no one feels neglected.)
OH YEAH... and anyone who tells me not to worry about the pet-hair dust bunnies just for them - they'll be just fine... usually relaxes me about all that crap.