Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: KayZee on December 07, 2011, 03:57:50 PM
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Hi everyone,
So, sometimes I feel like I'm side-stepping my anger for my NM. Like, I just won't let myself go to the Rage-place. And in the rare instances when do, I immediately feel guilty. I tell myself it's a waste of time, I ought to go back to trying to find forgiveness for my NM, accept her illness and her emotional limitations.
But anger is valid. It's cathartic. It's part of the grieving process.
To that end, someone suggested I ask myself--as a kind of emotional exercise--what I would do to get back at NM if I could? But I'm struggling.for answers. (Aside from, maybe, slipping my NM some mild-altering substance that would screw with her perceptions/sense of reality as much as she has always messed with mine.)
At any rate, knowing that everyone on this forum is much too thoughtful, compassionate and caring to ever carry out some sort of wicket plot...I wondered, do you ever fantasize about getting back at the N's in your life? If so, how do you see yourself doing it?
hope this question isn't too wicked,
K
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Hi Freshwater,
I'd rather see them removed, painlessly, from the planet.
I love this!
I'm so glad to hear you're not too attached/embroiled. It gives me hope.
I have to admit, there are still times when I WISH they wanted to change/were capable of it. Occasionally, I fantasize about sweeping into mom and dad's childhoods and rescuing them from their own dysfunctional FOOs and the abuses they suffered as kids, thereby making them healthy enough/sane enough to choose a partner that they really enjoy not just someone who reminds them of their nasty parents. But then, if that were possible, I wouldn't be here.
Kay
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Hi Kay,
You ask provocative questions that keep my mind percolating – I love this (thank you!).
I used to go through scenario through scenario through scenario about how I could get even (or even break-even).
I had so much rage against them – I call it the black rage.
In many ways the rage I felt was a catharsis in and of itself – it allowed me to realize that I was wronged.
Some I even acted out on – but even though I wrapped them up in the cellophane of their own making (tied them up in their own words) – they didn’t (deliberately) get it and it backfired (again I was the difficult one).
But, to get even – it pulls me into their game, and ultimately, it makes me them (IMO).
I don’t want to be them. Ever.
I have come to the point where I actually feel sorry for them.
They are so wrapped up in their own identities, they cannot fathom that someone might be different, and especially, that is ok to be different.
And to fight that is futile.
There definitely used to be a part of me that wanted them to feel the pain that I did.
Maybe it is idealistic, but I think they do feel that pain. Not at a conscious level by any means (but it is what I think drives them).
But I will not allow me to become them, and it is a slippery slope.
A slope I bypass, because I don’t want to be who they are.
If that makes any sense?
Love to you,
Peace
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I've had some fantasies....e.g. dropping acid on NWomb-Donor to change her perception of reality. Then, the more I thought that through, realized that her perceptions were so already skewed that she would never notice the difference.
My perception of N's are that they are like The Borg, sweeping through various quadrants in their Cubes, chanting: "We are The Borg! You will be assimilated! Resistance is futile!"
Reminds me to put as much distance as possible between me and them!
Bones
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Kay, my T actually recommended that I imagine a room where I could fully express my anger/rage. A place where I myself would be safe doing this. So I did a little interior design visualization... and began to feel myself in the space... then she suggested I think about who I wanted to put in the room with me and what did I want to do to them?? Just like in video games, weapons magically appeared in my hands... all the right words showed up coherently in my brain and came out of my mouth...
But I didn't want to hurt anyone. I just wanted to tie them up, duct tape their mouth and force them to listen to ME for a change. Turns out I had years worth of anger/rage/hurt to process out. Most of it in journals... but a lot of it, here too. We have PERMISSION to be angry (without guilt)... but it doesn't feel normal, until we've practiced it enough. You're right - it is a step along the healing path... everyone gets there in their own time, their own way. Everyone eventually gets done with that... and moves on. A good bit of my actual healing... was simply learning that I was allowed to be angry, to know why I was angry, who I was angry at... that anger, in itself, didn't make me a bad person... and that I didn't need to fear (and therefore stuff, deny, or turn my anger against myself) this one emotion getting "out of control".
Oh yes, and I learned that there were lots of other emotions to feel, too. ;)
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I'd love to get some revenge, but I never really think about it, probably because I know there really isn't any kind of revenge that would satisfy me. Nothing, not even NM's death, can undo the damage that she's inflicted. Nothing will give me my life back, make me normal inside, take away my insecurities and pain, the nightmares I still have of her tormenting me in high school, and the worst, a lifetime of family members believing that she was the perfect mother, and that there was something wrong with ME.
I suppose the only revenge that would make me happy would be for everyone to somehow learn the truth. For all of my aunts, uncles, cousins to learn about the horrible things she did to me. To also learn that my Co-Father, who they all adore, enabled her. I want someone to believe me. Sometimes I do wish for her death, but not as revenge, more as a way of gaining freedom. Otherwise, I don't see death or injury as being satisfying to anyone but her. She would, after all, get attention from it.
I suppose not letting her get to me, or at least not letting her KNOW that she 's getting to me ... that's the only real revenge I can get.
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dropping acid
My mind went back to the 70's when people used the phrase 'dropped acid'. I think you meant that you'd like to give her a bath in acid? Or were you thinking you'd spike her drink?
tt
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dropping acid
My mind went back to the 70's when people used the phrase 'dropped acid'. I think you meant that you'd like to give her a bath in acid? Or were you thinking you'd spike her drink?
tt
Hey, TT.
I was thinking in the 70's term regarding LSD. Unfortunately, I don't think the N's would notice the difference.
Bones
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I dunno Bones.... I think acid might be a good "shock therapy" for Ns...
if for no other reason than the fact that for the duration of the drug's effect...
a.) they would no longer be in "control" of "reality"...
b.) because of A... they would no longer believe in their ability to control other people
and then there's the 50-50 chance that their brains would be re-wired for the duration of the "trip" in such a way that they'd feel at one with the universe, feel empathy for other people, and not be the only person whose feelings "mattered"... and actually remember this after "coming down".
On the other hand... it could also make them even more N after, because of that same experience.
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and then there's the 50-50 chance that their brains would be re-wired for the duration of the "trip" in such a way that they'd feel at one with the universe, feel empathy for other people, and not be the only person whose feelings "mattered"
Okay, this is REALLY interesting. Definitely got me thinking. I wonder if there is any documentation of Ns taking hallucinogenic drugs, and how they reacted? Can mental illness be temporary halted, or are their brains so hard wired that the drug would simply bring out other N qualities? Somewhere there must be someone who has an N parent that took opiates or other mind altering drugs for a legitimate medical condition. Anyone have any experience with this?
This may sound utterly sadistic of me, but I'm curious, IF my mother really does have cancer, and ends up on a morphine drip at the end, will she out herself as an N on her death bed? The thought of it just gives me the giggles. I know she fantasizes about her Oscar winning death scene, with everyone gathered around the dying queen, fanning her with palm frawns, laying gold at her feet. What if her death scene turns out to be her babbling hatred and ugliness and outing her evilness right before she goes out. Now THAT is a nice revenge fantasy.
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Hi KayZee,
I saw a movie last night (on Netflix), called Buck...and recommend it for you.
(A bit off topic but maybe sorta not...)
It won Sundance awards etc.
It's beautiful and relates to some of what you've been through.
Hops
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Hi Everybody,
I'm so sorry I haven't responded sooner. I picked up another daycare flu/sinus and chest infection. Torture.
At any rate, Kathy, I related to the following tenfold:
I'd love to get some revenge, but I never really think about it, probably because I know there really isn't any kind of revenge that would satisfy me. Nothing, not even NM's death, can undo the damage that she's inflicted. Nothing will give me my life back, make me normal inside, take away my insecurities and pain, the nightmares I still have of her tormenting me in high school, and the worst, a lifetime of family members believing that she was the perfect mother, and that there was something wrong with ME.
You're so very very wise. Even if Ns were capable of change (they're not) and even if every other pawn in their evil empire saw the light, we'd still have to deal with the backlog of bad memories and emotional pain. There's no changing that, no getting around it. And I suppose revenge seems quite pointless to a lot of us because we suspect that it really wouldn't make up for the past.
That said, you're so strong and insightful and self-aware. I don't doubt that--with a little more time to grieve--you will find strength, security and an increased feeling of control, power, agency. I don't think you ought to focus on feeling "normal" inside. Because what you will have (what you already have) is more powerful than "normal:" what you've been through has given you a level of insight and empathy that is extremely rare. I don't want to say abuse is a gift because no one should ever have to suffer abuse, especially someone as lovely as you. But I strongly believe that some of the best healers (like therapists) or creative folks (musicians, writers, artists) have had trauma; it's what gives them such strong intuition and enables them to connect with other people on such a deep level.
Hops, Thank you so much for the recommendation. I will definitely check out Buck. I just went to the film's website (http://buckthefilm.com/) and was incredibly moved. I love the tagline: "There's no wisdom worth having that isn't hard won." And the line in the trailer...something like: "Vulnerability is what makes you great. And "a lot of people who are good at this are tortured souls."
Bones, it's funny, my revenge fantasies always go to LSD too. I'm not sure why the idea of spiking my mother's food/drink is so appealing. Probably because she used to do the same to me when I was little.
P.R. and Kathy, re: the below, if either of you come across any writing about mental illness and hallucinogenics, will you send it my way? I find the below ideas fascinating. Back when we were first dating, DH used to mischievously say that he'd love to spike my NM's coffee with the drug ecstasy, just to make her huggy, affectionate, nice to be around. But then, he said, if NM took ecstasy, she probably wouldn't feel any huge swells of love for anyone else, she'd just walk around rambling about how much everyone else loves HER. Funny and sad and telling. He said all this long before we ever realized that she probably had NPD.
Okay, this is REALLY interesting. Definitely got me thinking. I wonder if there is any documentation of Ns taking hallucinogenic drugs, and how they reacted? Can mental illness be temporary halted, or are their brains so hard wired that the drug would simply bring out other N qualities? Somewhere there must be someone who has an N parent that took opiates or other mind altering drugs for a legitimate medical condition. Anyone have any experience with this?
Anyway, I hope everyone has a wonderful, relaxing weekend.
sending lots of love your way, Kay
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I think the chances for even a temporary spontaneous "healing" of N are probably slim and none. I was probably doing a little wishful thinking in my flight of fantasy, there.
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don't spike the eggnog
watch the movie (if you have Netflix streaming, it's free...)
eat soup
xo
Hops
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I have heard that there is a very effective type of therapy that is used on violent sex offenders and other violent criminals. Somehow the therapist gets the offender to get in the emotional space of the victim. The therapy is considered successful (or at least getting somewhere) when the perp breaks down and realizes what it must have been for the victim, being victimized.
I would send her to that therapy.
For. As. Long. As. It. Takes.
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I like it, Erin! ;)
But I wonder if an N even can "put themselves in someone else's shoes"? This seems to some bio-emotional-neural mutation in Ns. They simply don't accept the premise that anything exists - or has feelings - outside of themselves. It's as if they don't have the imagination to "pretend" this, at all... or that pretending it "hurts" them - like water on the wicked witch of the west.
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But I wonder if an N even can "put themselves in someone else's shoes"?
My NM would have no problem putting herself in someone else's shoes, as long as that person was important, wealthy, famous .... someone who would be a "peer." She could easily put herself in Queen Elizabeth's shoes, but never in the shoes a common, working class person, and NEVER in the shoes of a victim. Maybe it would be possible with hypnosis, otherwise, I can't see it happening.
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I think N's are aways in *everyone else's shoes* even if they are not ...They Are! They seem to be everyone else's life but never thier own. The revenge I had thought I woud have felt good about was N being *knocked out of thier shoes* and it has been done but all I saw was an empty person (rather sad). The best revenge (for an N) is for You to be Happy and let the N and Nish things they do ...Go. Sometimes it means letting the person go.
My children grew up without a dad. Well Bio dad. They have a step. I let everything go when they were still babies. I do believe (me) letting go helped them to have compassion for thier father (athough they choose not to see him) they have no anger or hurt feelings. It just was, ya know? He was just a sick guy but did the best he could.....Even if it was not good enough.
That is all he was capable of.
Revenge ......He lost his chidren because of his own poor choices and my choice.....and now thier choice. That's sad.
Kinda like he revenged himself.
He never knew his children. And BOY ARE THEY GREAT KIDDO'S.........
Deb
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The best revenge (for an N) is for You to be Happy and let the N and Nish things they do ...Go.
YES! Absolutely. I know my NM loses sleep over me being NC, and knowing that I'm happily living my life without her in it. She has no idea that we've suffered some unemployment and financial difficulties because I don't share that anywhere, at least not anywhere that's public. If she's stalking me online (which I know she is), all of my blog entries, twitter activity, and anything she would be able to find is 100% positive. I make a point of never posting anything negative in a public forum, so for all she knows, I have a great job, an expensive house, and am living a better life than she is, and she is powerless to change that or hurt me in any way. Her head must be exploding.
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They seem to be everyone else's life but never thier own.
I gotta admit you've got a point, Deb. This does seem to be the case, doesn't it? But, I know that it's also true that most of them are incapable of seeing other people as feeling people; there is general tendency to objectify other people -- interacting with them like dolls, with them putting words into the dolls mouths, stimulating reactions, then blaming the "doll" for x, y, & z. The result is the other person simply not feeling "real" to the N, except as a doll - plaything - who only "matters" when they're reinforcing N- delusions of ego, grandeur, and power.
You're also right, that it's a losing proposition for most of us to understand all the hows & whys of how this works. It's much better for us in the long run, to simply let it go. Now, if we could just break that "Let it Go" concept down into a step by step process, and package it -- so that it could be one size fits all, and still allow room to customize parts of it... now THAT would be a scientific, humanitarian break-through!
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To me revenge is a dish best served........not at all.
If we are seeking revenge, even in fantasy, we will never be able to forgive.
If we can't forgive we will never be able to heal.
If we can't heal who is being harmed more, us or the N? That's precisely what they want; us bound up in their system and values, permanently messed up by the effects of their mental problems. They live to make everyone feel just a little more miserable than they do. That's their bizarre idea of "winning".
Besides, revenge is precisely what these clowns feed off of the most; painting themselves as the poor victims of evil monsters who are just what they warned everyone we were all along.
Now, any legitimate avenue for restitution or recompense is fine because it's justice. But revenge isn't justice. In most ways it's the opposite.
mud
P.S. And a Holly Jolly Christmas to one and all.
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Hmmm...I agree with JustKathy...with a twist. I believe Ns can definitely place themselves (in their own minds anyway) in the shoes of those they believe are worthy of them (the Queen, star athletes, super-wealthy, celebrities, etc.) but never in the shoes of just your average Joe or Jane.....or their children or spouse. However, even in this, it is limited. They could put themselves in those shoes as long as the situation fosters their high belief of themselves.....basically, only the good, never the bad. So, while they could empathize with the super wealthy during the good times, they never could when that super wealthy person takes a public fall.
As far as the "victim" part, my experience that there are times when an N portrays themselves as a victim...those times when the real world gets in their way. For example, my Nmom got her purse stolen once and she never lets anyone forget it. However, when anyone else is a victim....even a victim of real abuse and violence as I was......they show such disdain.....as if it's a weakness which they can't tolerate. So, as usual, for the N, being a victim only applies to them.
I think a lack of real empathy is the trademark telltale sign of a true N. They simply refuse to do it..whether it is because they are physically incapable of it...or merely choose not to. One exception. I've found that they have bushels of empathy for the "Golden Child". Whatever pain or anxiety or challenge the Golden Child experiences is far worse than any of any other person. What's more, the N expects everyone to acknowlege the horrible plight of the GC in these circumstances.
Ah yes, the N. Unable and unwilling to behave like any other human. Like the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz, they are badly in need of a heart.
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Mud,
I don't agree with you about forgiveness and healing. It depends on definitions, perhaps and just what you might be forgiving. I don't forgive behaviour. I forgive all of them for being what they are, because they can't help it; they can't change and it's not their 'fault'.
I do agree with you about revenge and justice. Revenge is ridiculous. Justice is an ideal, a goal. Doesn't happen too much I think.
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I agree that ideas of revenge, while momentarily satisfying, are not valuable in the long run. Justice, on the other hand, is the real fantasy of most victims of Ns. We'd like to think that somewhere, somehow, Ns will get a piece of what they dish out. I so hope for that but I'm not at all sure it will happen. There are those who keep talking to me of Karma....what goes around comes around. I haven't seen it yet and I'm not sure it occurs.
I agree, that while it is incredibly difficult to do, putting Ns aside and focusing on being happy is the best revenge.....It means you are not making the N the focus of your life, of the world, which Narcissism is all about.
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There are lots of kinds of revenge. Surviving the bastards is a good one. Not letting their death rays in is a good one. Breaking their spell and disabling their power is good. I cursed my exPath and recently heard he had flesh eating disease. At the same time I developed pancreatitus. This pancreas thing is supposed to be about hanging on to resentment.
Forgiveness is not possible for me. I get extremely anxious and full of shame that I am not a better person and can't forgive. Sometimes I hope God takes care of my revenge fantasiies. There is a backfire component to revenge.I have taken off the curse.
I actually knew someone who visited her mother for Thanksgiving and she dropped valium into her mother's drink. She had just gotten into a serious Lesbian relationship and they visited her deeply religious mom. They were afraid of the mom's reaction. I thought this was very wrong.Messing with someone else like that is dangerous, manipulative and creepy. This was an old lady.
Forgiving myself for all the bad scenes I lived in like one of those members of a cult is a first step. But forgiveness for the perpetrator is difficult. At al anon we are encouraged to pray for anyone we hold resentments for. Resentment held onto poison one's soul. Gives the bastards too much power. The physical effects of hanging on to anger and revenge are personally damaging. For me, I think it literally at away at my guts.
I am trying to turn up the volume on the good things in life and make positive changes consciously. It helps until I get grabbed by the past and flung around like a rag doll.
Sea storm
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I had em, from my job loss, the revenge fantasy thing, but they dissipated after a while. Still I got in touch with some darkness of the human spirit. Now I understand a little bit more the "evil" in the world because I have some of that evil too.
It's toxic though to carry that around and it emanates from us. I believe it does more damage to the SELF rather than the other.
It's valid to be angry though. Totally VALID IMO. We are allowed to be angry I say.
I feel it like a passing drought of the soul that maybe lasts even a whole year but still I feel better when my own hatred finally peters out. Wow the barriers between people right. Bad deeds, thoughtless, careless, harmful deeds cause walls and fences and lines and barriers between people.
Boundaries or prisons.....who knows. I guess one can imprison oneself in one's own boundaries but this is just a ramble on....
Good luck with spitting the anger out. There are female goddess archtypes that are very wrathful and have blood dripping from their mouths. They are powerful archetypes meaning that many women identify with on some level with this aspect.
Its an aspect.
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Great distinction between the toxicity of revenge and the healthfulness of clean anger, Bones.
Everybody got muck.
Everybody got to decide whether to go down in it and play.
Everybody got to try (hard) to decide if the muck'll come off...long after the Ns are gone.
Hops