Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sKePTiKal on December 29, 2011, 09:11:24 AM
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OK, so I have the coolest hair stylist. We're at opposite ends of the political spectrum and that's part of the connection & fun... he's a grandpa - part of my generational cohort... and we talk about just about everything under the sun. I suspect he's another self-motivated learner. I like him & his wife & crew a whole bunch. So yesterday, as us oldsters are wont, we started talking about neuroscience again... and he reminded me of a previous conversation we had about one of his new-age-y heroes. This guy, Neil Slade worked with some brain scientist, musician nut from our generation by the name of "Lingo".
They're pushing this practical "experiment" that people can try at home on themselves. It's called "Tickling the Amygdala"... Long story short: one is supposed to be able to retrain the brain to "feel better" with this technique... to be more creative, cooperative, even less negative; less anxious... simply by practicing this easy visualization that effectively re-orients one's neural pathways from always seeking the negative first. This overlaps with the subject of some of the books I've read, and seems to be based on the concept of neural plasticity. So there might actually be something to it - but I'm still skeptical.
My guess is that this will work better for folks that also have a high level of suggestibility, or who think in associations more often than linear, causal logic patterns. Maybe that's a description of creative types... but it's not the complete description. Anyway - here's the link to the full explanation and description for anyone who's curious or doesn't have something better to do. I'm interested in hearing from people about whether they notice any effects, whether you tried it once and walked away from it or started really noticing a difference. I'm going to try it too... because it overlaps with something my T taught me; seems very similar.
http://www.neilslade.com/Papers/viewzone/BrainMagicView.html
This was something she showed me how to do, to deal with my anxiety levels... get them back down to bearable, garden-variety, obsessive worrying that I could talk about. Even that last part left after awhile too. One simply sits comfortably in a chair and does a basic body relaxation technique - tensing and relaxing different parts of the body, working from the toes on up... while one holds your hands together in a loose ball - all fingers/thumbs touching, lightly as if you're holding something round, fluffy and very, very delicate in them... maybe a kitten? A giant seed puff? And breathing in a meditative, comfortable pattern, letting your hands expand and contract with your ribcage...
I don't need to do the above anymore; not unless I'm in a very stressful situation... but it worked very, very quickly for me. And I was able to reduce the initial 2 minute time limit we set on this... down to a few seconds, and still obtain the needed relaxation effect. I guess the theory is, that we disrupt the amygdala's tried & true initiation of the flight/fight/freeze effect... and redirect the attention to the frontal cortex... simply with focus, attention, and concentration - and that it doesn't require a lot of time... just enough repetition (which will vary person to person) to break the old neural pathway habit.
The other part of the theory -- and this is where I'm most skeptical I think -- is that this simple retraining can also change our emotional habits... thereby "improving our lives" by providing more pleasant emotions. (I'm know that's not enough to "improve" people's lives if they're barely making ends meet financially.) Anyone know if there is only one brain area involved in emotions? Or if it's alot more complex than that...?? I'm leaning toward the latter.
I know this sounds rediculously "airy-fairy" and like "magical thinking" almost. Absurd. But I also know that my T's exercise was an absolute life-saver for me at that time. It worked, every time... until I didn't need it. So far as I know, neuroscience hasn't figured out exactly how brain activity & thought disruption create or change emotions. I believe that our physical body has some impact on this also... but these are all parts of the same larger machine or bio-system of ourselves. My thought is that our emotional selves... our "feeling being"... is produced by and dependent on the functioning of the rest of our selves... because I know it works in reverse, via my psychosomatic symptoms.
Anyway, I thought I'd share the link... since we've touched on this a few times... and maybe a few of you will try it and let me know what you think. Hold off deciding if there's anything to it... until you've tried it... let's say 10 times. I don't think once is enough for most of us to notice anything... but I also don't want anyone to waste their time, either.
Thanks!
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Hey P.S.,
This experiment looks fascinating. And I'm in desperate need of some post-holiday stress-busting! I'm going to give it a try (plus the body-tensing relaxation exercise).
Let you know how it goes!
lots of love, Kay
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Yeah, I'm with you Boat - it does seem too simple. At least until one adds repetition into the mix - that's based on re-grooving neural pathways; neural plasticity and is an accepted premise in the science. Anecdotally - I experienced a success with this and my MIL. She'd had a strong stroke with the usual speech and right-arm weakness. In rehab, her mood started to really deteriorate and she was moving from depression into hope/helplessness. Both hubs and I brainstormed ideas to a.) give her something to distract her and b.) help her regain physical-brain cooperation.
At the time, I had access to physical therapy course materials and consulted those and the professor who taught those courses - specifically neuroscience for PT majors. What I found was very hopeful... and since MIL had been quite the accomplished seamstress and immaculate crochet practicitioner... I got large yarn and the biggest crochet hook I could find. She protested that she'd never be able to crochet again... but we kept telling her to just try. I reasoned that even after the stroke, there would be enough strength and body memory in her hands... that they would connect visually and tactilly with her brain... that she would be slowly be able to regain the ability to follow multiple, complex steps... manage a process in other words. She'd been crocheting all her life - I knew that skill and knowledge couldn't simply evaporate unless she'd experienced more brain injury than we were led to believe. It worked... and within a year she completed a baby afghan for her new great-grandson. Lots of other kinds of things remained difficult or beyond her... but getting back a lifelong skill gave her back some confidence in her ability to recover. That pushed her over the edge... into positive effort, experiment, trying... that motivation that many seem to feel is beyond us, from time to time.
For me - it was one of my wild guesses; a shot in the dark... but the research I started doing, made it seem like I was on the right track. Other experiments like that, didn't work out so well. And later, we discovered there was probably other medical - organic, physical - reasons why.
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Okay P,
How do you do it though? A person focuses mental energy on a section of the brain and vebally says "click" and imagines the brain changing? Is that how you do it?
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Hmm. The link I posted shows a picture of where the amygdalas are in the brain. Sort of on a line between your eyes/ears; midway. Then you're supposed to imagine that you're tickling them with a feather. That's what they mean, I think, by "clicking" attention/function forward.
I don't get much of any result from this; I wondered if anyone else did.
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Hmm. The link I posted shows a picture of where the amygdalas are in the brain. Sort of on a line between your eyes/ears; midway. Then you're supposed to imagine that you're tickling them with a feather. That's what they mean, I think, by "clicking" attention/function forward.
I don't get much of any result from this; I wondered if anyone else did.
I have to say, in all the studies that I was required to read in graduate school, I had never heard of "tickling the amygdala" before. It makes me think of visual imagery of the pleasure centers of the brain....FWIW.
Bones
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I don't know yet... but it feels like it's too big for me to lift all by myself. I'm gonna need a whole group of big men to hold it in place while I make the welds... maybe it's an ark?? It feels like boat... a house boat maybe... I keep seeing these inch thick sheets of steel that need to be precisely shaped; molded and stretched and then joined together with a permanent "seam"...
Maybe a giant Mad Hatter teacup out of steel. Sorta Claes Oldenberg... he's a sculptor who's done things like this. Sorta whimsical... sort of a visual "why not"?
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A visual Why Not!?-----I love that!!!!
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You know what's weird, Boat? (about me...)
is that I get more of a pleasurable tingle... a faint, wry smile on my face more from contemplating an oversize steel teacup (and a whole painting composition to illustrate the phrase "ass over teacup") than I do, visualizing that stupid feather tickling my brain.
Visual why nots... have been fun things for me. The old painting I did that I miss the most was titled: The Sound of one Flip Flopping...
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Well, tt - I'm not sure how seriously "science" takes this, either. I am still rather skeptical. Try it and see if you notice any "cause & effect"... let me know. I'm almost afraid that this might be one of those experiments, where the subjects reported results, simply to please the folks who came up with this and wanted to test it. That's one type of suggestibility... I think.
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The Sound of one Flip Flopping...
Hahaha :D
Thanks for that!
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Yeah, like the instant gratification of a magic pill...
oh lord, just now thought about it! Maybe there are side effects of things like this? Or it only "works" if one is truly in a certain frame of mind, already?
I've wondered about that, because over time... things like the anxiety exercise that I learned from my T don't work now, if I intentionally focus on it and try to do it. Instead... it's sort of a "shorthand" or code phrase that takes me right to the calm... my "happy place" if you will. I just remember the exercise... ahhhh.... calm.
In other words - it doesn't "work" because I don't really need it. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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P: I think you pointed something out. There is a technique that involves bringing a person into the present, tangible, here and now moment, to recognize that the world and their body physically is okay regardless of what sort of emotions they might be feeling. If they are too into their thoughts. Possibly that is part of what this technique does. It reminds me of a quote that basically says we don't have control over lots of stuff, gender, race etc. But that we have choice over our attitude. This remind me of that more than brain-rewiring. Will have to give this one some time and real consideration though, I've only made a first impression judgement so far.
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Well, that makes a lot of sense to me Boat! You know I've been trying to "see" the mind-body connection from a lot of different angles... and lately I have shifted some more "center of gravity" into my linear, detailed, left-brain analytical side and trying to balance that with totally worthless, but rewarding "play".
These kinds of techniques leverage that mind-body connection interest me because of my personal dysfunctional psychosomatic sensitivity... I've got one new thing to throw into the mix... the placebo effect is getting attention again. In the news I read, there were a couple of things to ponder... in light of where we started this topic. Asthmatics who were given a placebo in their inhalers, did as well or better over time... even when they were told they had the placebo. There is evidence being collected that it absolutely doesn't matter if the subject believes they've been given the drug or told they weren't. That's nugget A.
Nugget B, was that a group of bell hops were told that their job provided the perfect conditions for them to become physically fit and healthy... versus a group that didn't hear this made-up claim. Yet the ones who were told this fairy tale - after 6 mos or so - WERE in better shape; lost weight... lower blood pressure, etc. compared to the group members who were told nothing yet had the same level of activity on the job.
Nugget A suggests to me, that as long as an individual feels they can DO something to help themselves... the act of doing something all by itself, will have the desired effect, especially when it - in this case, has worked in the past because a drug was delivered through the inhaler.
Nugget B really interests me... because in my long struggle with smoking, I read a book one time that claimed to debunk the idea that quitting was horribly difficult. The author said we've been told that so long, that we simply take it as fact and don't question it...when in truth... if we believed it was easy-peezy... and had messages bombarding us that this was the case... a lot more smokers could quit. Nugget B illustrates the premise behind "Fake it till you make it", too.
For a long time, I've felt like I was my own worst enemy... because of how my brain worked - sabotaging me... now I wonder how much of that feeling was simply the ingestion of a misinformed, malevolent, message that I heard repeatedly????
Anyway Boat, please share anything you run across while you're pondering... anything that "shows up" on your idea radar. Or anyone else, who's working on this line of inquiry.
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Play away!! Bombs away SPLAT......thats what happens when you stand right next to a person with a water balloon.
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Hey tt, me too - interest in the paranormal, that is. And hairdresser, too... then I sort of grew out of it; saw a lot of it for the wishful thinking that it was. But then, there's the broad subject of "magic" and "mystery"... I guess the mystical, in a nutshell. I'm still drawn toward it. The invisible, unseen, undefinable aspects of life... the stuff we don't talk about because we haven't decided what words "fit" or "explain" or "describe"... stuff that's always "like" something else...
Stuff like the "IMP" - the ironic monitoring process. This is so close to my own inner description of a phenomena I've experienced, I'm just fascinated and curious to know more about it. And it fits so nicely, with my new year's resolution this year: to be funny again... silly... to use that sensitivity and awareness of cognitive dissonance to make people laugh. There hasn't been enough laughter for awhile; the pee your pants kind of laughing... that resolves two mutually exclusive realities (dissonance)... and sands down the sharp shards of pain. Like the Mother Goose nursery rhyme I "twisted" to make fun of a friends' N-mom...
'course now... that means I have to open my mouth, throw the tenets of political correctness to the winds, allow my inner smart ass a soapbox to declaim from....
water balloons, indeed!! ;)
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I've been considering this some more. I want to practice this I just haven't gotten geared up to do it yet. How is it working for you P?
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I didn't notice a thing - except I seem to be sliding into the mid-winter doldrums; in other words the opposite effect it's supposed to have. That could just be the weird way my brain is wired. Same/similar thing happens with medication - if it's supposed make people nervous, I can't stay awake... and vice versa.
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Maybe one could imagine pouring some hot chocolate into the brain.
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Hmmm.... chocolate. That's close to what I picked...
I ended up with sea salt scrub... body butter... and I plan to soak my body in all this stuff and maybe it'll soak into my brain at the same time. It's pretty silly - but I've feeling totally pooky; like I'm "sick"... but no real symptoms except the usual sinus-barometer effect with our up/down weather.
That's an old pattern; how I express emotional needs... and since I'm also dreaming about being in situations where I feel I have to yell HELP... I'm just going to spoil myself physically for a little while. I could be fighting off some bug... but with everything else I've been thinking about... it's more than likely a combination of things.
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He he hee...giggle...a spa day sounds good.
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10 hours of sleep didn't hurt either. It's like my brain & motivation completely clocked out - going on a week now - so maybe I did pick up a bug. Took a kid's benedryl last night - asleep on the couch by 7:30/8... woke up and crawled in bed (leaving hubs & the dog)... didn't move again until about 6 this morning.
Read something yesterday that has me going "huh".
Apparently there something known as the "gut brain" - a separate system from our head brain. The article said that this gut brain produces 95% of the neurotransmitters that race around the body and make their way to the head brain. Also responsible for serotonin... which helps us regulate our sleep patterns. This is an important "dot" in my "connect the dots" way of concocting my wild theories...
because of the mind-body-psychosomatic implications
because of "what does your gut tell you?"
because of "my body has a mind of it's own"...
because of "you are what you eat" + the "reset your body clock diet" + an article somewhere else on "mood foods" (chocolate really does trigger pleasure hormones to diffuse through the brain & body...)
and the spa day - even the short version I indulged in - helps so much with my nerve-endings... so much of what my body is going through right now is like fibromyalgia... except it's not... so it's coming from some other process I'm going through - probably unconsciously. There is no stress in my life right now... except living 24/7 with hubs... and that isn't even as stressful as my complaining & whining would suggest.
I feel like a total little kid - a whiny baby - because I don't know what I want; what I really need; but "nothing's right" right now. I don't make sense when I talk and I'm misunderstanding other people and I don't even make sense to myself, right now.
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Revisiting the idea of brain-rewiring. So I guess the term is "Interpersonal neurobiology"
I'm wondering in what ways would a person need to restructure the brain to counter act the Narcissistic influence.
Brain MRI scans show the physical formation of PTSD. Post Traumatic Stress.
Post Traumatic stress is closely linked with borderline personality. In the hippocampus areas some say the size is reduced some say the size in not reduced.
I'm wondering about those who have been influenced by narcissism or other forms of abuse...what is the shape of the brains.
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-5600285.html
Do we know enough about the brain yet to be able to say YES we can rewire it?
Issues that Show up on MRI's
STRESS--
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder
Borderline Personality Disorder
PTSD
Psychopaths
Maybe Body Dysmorphic disorder
Maybe bulimia nervosa
There is a study that shows the brains of depressed people's (hatefulness circuitry) has been screwed up.
----Is this related to people NOT defending themselves? Not standing up for themselves I wonder?
You know maybe in some circumstances the natural response WOULD be to attack a person and then when that doesn't happen the brain suffers...
So do Narcissists have a hate circuit for us? I wonder. And if someone grows up with an adult that has a hate circuit for the child what does the child's brain look like?
Seems like the most common sense answer to changing the brain is just to hang out with nice, normal people.
Anybody can start out with a healthy brain right--have an on-going stressful event and then the brain changes?
Here is some info about curing spider phobia. I know it's off topic but I'm all of a sudden interested in what the recent work has been done with what we can now see in the brain (MRI) and mental conditions. Says one person would leave a room for days if she even thought a spider might be in it. How did they fix that?
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20120521/spider-phobia-brain-scan-shows-cure-in-1-session
Do we have narcissism phobia? narcissism ocd? Can we be cured in 2 hours? Why not?
Can we reorganize our brains permanently or will any little thing make the brain go back to it's most traveled rutted path?
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Well. When one learns something like tai chi... one is re-wiring the brain. It requires repetition... it's not like getting an oil change: 20 minutes and you're good as new! LOL...
When one finds oneself in a brand-new situation without a lot of previous experience that could apply (or referential contexts)... sometimes one accidentally re-wires the brain (let's say in an incorrect way)... and then as one gains more experience in that new situation... one gradually adapts to it and learns the contexts, the subtexts, the nuances. A more correct way... or one that simply works better & smoother.
Usually the first response one makes to that new, unique situation, is with what one already KNOWS... and what has worked in the past... EVEN when that response is a complete non-sequitor. "Take me to your leader", the alien demands. "Hi. Are you an alien? Can you read my mind? Why aren't you green?" Bzzzzt! The alien has no patience or experience with a challenge to an order.... but he STILL doesn't know where the "leader" is. [THAT worked well, huh?]
Neuroscience, or more properly, Neuropsychology... has come a long, long way from simply "looking at pictures" of the brain or feeling bumps on someone's head, or comparing weights and sizes... in fact, just the idea that the physical attributes of one's brain somehow "predicts" or "limits" or "controls" personality, imagination, emotional well-being.... well, that's kinda old hat. It seems there's a trend now, to believe that even if the scientists can create a technology that reveals the most elusive secret physical workings of the brain -- it's still not going to answer or explain or point the path to a solution - to "cure" the human condition.
One thing that has jumped up to bite my pompous, over-intellectual behind recently... is that a.) all the caring for and about someone in the world, even a mom's unconditional love... and b.) all the delicate, cautious care in choosing one words... doesn't mean that someone is going to hear you until they're READY to hear you... and they have a "context" that the topic makes sense in. It doesn't apply to them and they don't know what you're talking about... [long, personal story... sigh]
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Long-term physical discipline just wasn't the answer for me, a couple of old therapists I had thought I was too disciplined, too uptight...that I was working almost too hard to fix myself. :( And it didn't work anyways.
But we all have different issues anyhow.
Maybe issues can resolve quickly. Maybe it doesn't have to be a life-long struggle.
A person may have been impacted by repetitive abuse but that may not mean that the solution is repetitive dependence on pills and lifelong therapy. Just thinking out loud.
Sigh.
Well I would prefer to know about cutting edge technology even if I can't afford it. Maybe I could volunteer to be a guinea pig one day. I guess what the MRI are telling us is what part of the brain is impacted by something. Also that the brain can change QUICKLY. To me just knowing that is encouraging.
Technology has grown in leaps and bounds in my life time. We know how to force people to have OBE's via brain stimulation. Out of body experiences. That means we know what part of the brain the consciousness in theory is associated with. Science has located the mind. Or at least they are getting closer to it.
My nephews and nieces don't even know what a rotary telephone is when they see one.
Anywho, I'm getting off topic.
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I agree. Think I was just rehashing what I think I know.
There is something about those "sudden changes"... and I'm speculating here... while on the surface it appears that one day a person simply breaks old habits and even, in some cases, completely changes their life... usually a closer look reveals a trail backwards from that point and various subtle, small, numerous things that built up over time until enough (let's call it...) "change energy" is produced to seemingly instantaneously evoke the necessary change. I don't know whether a change like that has enough substance (or ass) behind it to sustain itself without reinforcement, or if... over time... things gradually return to a previous state of existence. I think there has to be repetition of the "new"... until it becomes automatic and the old behavior (or state of being) loses it's comfortable feel.
Repetition, here... includes things like positive new experiences that accumulate because of the change and new perspectives on life, self, relationships... even the concept of yin/yang is subject to entropy... what the buddhists point out about life: everything changes, constantly whether we can observe it or not.
I just don't know Salsa. This theory applies to enough things, often enough, that it's going to "do" for me, for now. It's far from perfect and there are, I think, some leaps of faith in it in places. Assumptions even, that I probably can't defend well. I am very interested in the bio-neurological research going on, too. The more pieces of the puzzle we can put on the puzzle, the sooner the picture will become clear. Then we can decide if "that's enough"... or if it only creates more questions! LOL...
:D
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That's okay, we don't have to agree. I like taichi and I'm sure we can all benefit from anything that is stress reducing.
Like I said, we all have different personal issues.
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P: I did read that a Harvard study did MRI to determine what effect exercises such as tai chi have on the brain and yes they do seem to think that it makes stronger connections in the brain. Compassion, memory and self-awareness were increased. Also the connections in the amygdala density decreased. I've got to read the whole study when I'm awake.
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For what it's worth - the parietal temporal stuff that Silver Lining mentioned over on the HPD thread - is also useful, if the studies hold up about the connection between relating to others with that section of brain. The whole topic of neuro- anything, I find myself looking at details, up close & personal.... just one bit... and then, having to see how that fits into the whole understanding (I think there's more than one) of how brain & body function together.
You're right, that it's ok if we disagree - especially on this topic - because I think the more different viewpoints, ideas, perspectives and even beliefs that we can collect together about it, creates a better understanding - a richer, more detailed picture. I know I don't have all the answers and some days I even change my mind about what I think or believe... but that's also kinda based on how I feel and what's going on around me, too! LOL...
I absolutely enjoy that kind of discussion, brainstorming, speculation... what if? It's part of the creative play instinct, maybe.
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I guess I'm thinking about how I have had panic attacks after I practiced Taichi. Not during the time I was doing it though. Read that panic attack is more or less the result and progression of untreated anxiety. When I'm incredibly stressed out I also can not start a practice like that- I get too anxious to relax enough to do it. I don't know, seems like I could benefit from it in very small ways BUT it feels like if there were any change in my brain that my brain goes backwards to what it knows best. Also if my so called "hate connection" (depression) is "decoupled" then I don't think tai chi is the right approach for me. I don't think becoming more compassionate is good for me personally.
Maybe it's exactly what you need though.
I actually experienced the agoraphobia thing a handful of times as an adult AND after years of these meditative type practices. It started when I was a child. So as always I'm still searching and exploring.
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I have a theory about that.
I too, have had panic attacks ... and for awhile, I couldn't go to concerts because I couldn't breathe when I was in the crowd of people. When it occurs - for me - as a result of meditation, moving or otherwise... it's because I've stopped (or been distracted from) left brain awareness dominating right brain awareness. I've been working on ways to simply balance that and try to have both accessible.
Another way to describe it, is that before I knew what was "percolating up" in my consciousness - Twigs/inner child memories - some really awful disturbing - and totally out of context with my present circumstances - feelings started to invade my awareness. There wasn't anything in my present that reminded me or triggered me... what it was... was that I relaxed, was having fun, feeling whole and comfortable... and THAT'S what triggered the freak-outs. That was the taboo I lived under for so long - that the moment I thought I was "safe" - I would experience a SHTF life-threatening storm. It was linked - magically - in my kid-brain to letting go and relaxing... because there was no other explanation for why I was responsible for the storm... as I was told and made to feel, that it was all my fault.
Go figure.
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I understand that, Boat...while my anxiety was at its worst, or so easily triggered, things like meditation would make it worse.
I found over time I had to approach it not as directly as with "this activity is focused on improving my mental state." Instead, I had to come at it more sideways, by filling up more of my time with more positive things, and just wait for their natural effects...to change the anxiety.
I think that is what happened. Over time, a bunch of small indirect choices that were healthier, cured the anxiety and depression. One direct thing was literal 'thought stopping." It involved things as simple as saying to myself firmly, "STOP IT" when I began obsessing down a negative track.
But every time I tackled it frontally, things got better. (Meditation always backfired, but hypnosis was amazing.)
love
Hops