Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on December 31, 2011, 12:05:04 PM
-
I'm okay, really. I just was thinking yesterday that how I was feeling at the end of the isolated painful workweek (politics and exclusion at work, boys' club expanding with another young man...boss manipulating the devotees, just trying to hold my balance...feeling older and less secure, but I think it's okay)...anyway, how I was feeling as I drove home in the dark was just a yearning to speak my feelings -- just the feelings -- and I did, partly, on the phone with a friend last night, and thought I'd do it more with my friends here. Take a Tums if you read on as this is just pure complaining (no grace to it).
D:
I feel so sad and lonely without word from my D. I feel partly that it's my fault because I was an enmeshing over-involved, clueless, double-divorced and either depressed-withdrawn or emotionally engulfing mother (read a description of 'closet N' and felt HORRIBLE, so bells were ringing) ... and the other part is I just ache from the sadness of her circumstances. I know she is afraid and angry and depressed and feeling more awful than I can imagine. And I am not the one who can comfort her, and her way of coping and healing is to be so LC with me. And it's okay. I even approve. I understand what's happening. It's just hard. I think because of the holidays -- didn't hear a word from her on Tgiving or Xmas, she doesn't return calls. I did hear from her by email 8 days ago, but that was just because she wanted to track a package I'd sent her. I also sent her money and food, etc. (Piece of me is hurt she never says thank you. But that's not giving unconditionally so I shut that up.) Part of the sadness is ... no family. She's it. He's dead (her Dad), I'm alone, and she's my only child. So there that is. (I will grow around this, build PHamily, and it even may be different one day. But that's the loss I feel.) When I'm feeling most self-pitying, I fear for my old age...either being abandoned by her, or worse (abused or exploited, if she hasn't become well and gotten back in touch with values). But I'm only 61, there's plenty of time for growth in us both.
Me:
I don't function right. I don't exercise every day. I don't eat well consistently. I need to fight hard to get a grip on rebuilding my health. My strength has tanked in the last few years. I often feel frail and weak, physically. I know this can be changed. I worry that I lack the will to do it. That's partly grief over D. And the feeling of isolation in the job. Sort of waves of "give up" come over me, too often.
Home:
My housemate has introduced a girlfriend I dislike. She just appeared and she's manipulative and my radar went off, to the point of paranoia. Part of it's because my tenant/housemate has always been responsible and considerate but impulsive, always falling in love and getting into sketchy relationships. I respect her boundaries a lot and because of the space, we've functioned extremely well in the same building but only a few minutes of interaction in the kitchen now and then--not even every day. The new person just appeared and has been staying here for days, and my housemate didn't discuss it with me in advance, so I felt my privacy was invaded. (Not that new person DID anything...it was just that my housemate went off to her job and left this other person here all day. My private papers etc are all out in the open in my space, and I just don't know anything about the person and whether she'd snoop. So I go off not feeling entirely secure about home.) I'm going to talk to housemate about it this week...she's been avoiding me.
Self care:
Finances is part of this, and taking care of the house. I'm way behind on both. When I come home, I immediately start escaping into bed, TV, laptop and/or reading. I do this all week long. I never, ever, do anything in the evenings to move my life forward. Partly I'm tired, partly I just want to escape. It ain't good.
NOT a wail:
I'm having my usual year-end resolve (spurt of interest) in dating, and have 2 dates set up. No thrills, just a sense that this is another piece of "practice" I should probably do. Normally, I do it a bit in the New Year and give it up.
That's it, dears. Think a whole lot of it comes down to discipline, rebellion, immaturity (at 61!) and such.
It would be just fine with me if anybody wailed about anything here...
xo
Hops
-
Sigh, I'm reading Hops 8)
"Got to Kick up darkness till it bleeds daylight" --From song "Lovers in a dangerous time"
I like this, I don't know what the wailing wall is exactly but really every town should have a place to go to just for wailing.
I bet that you are not motivated to "move your life forward" because you don't see or believe there is anything in the future. Well at least that is what gets me. When I realized that hey maybe someday I will go to Hawaii (not too far fetched) I remembered what it felt like to have something to look forward for, to have little dreams, little "wants". maybe we have to play around to find something that inspires the mind enough to care to get through the doldrums and mundane tasks.
Sounds like you are de-energized and uninspired. I know how that is.
-
Oh Hops,
I don't think you have to worry one bit about being a Closet-N Mom. There's no such thing as a perfect parent. In the short time I've been on this board, your warmth and empathy has helped me on many a horrible day and I've watched it help many others too. It is very clear to me that you are a caring, compassionate good enough mother, who's done her best to help her D but also respected her independence and given her space. It sounds to me like you're feeling the frustration that comes with trying to help someone who refuses to acknowledge she needs help/won't help herself. And that is supremely frustrating; it's maddening. She's bound to come around eventually. And if she doesn't, she's missing out. Just keep being the lovely, genuine woman and mother you already are.
Have fun on your dates. And send updates! Practice, indeed. But sometimes, when you least expect it....something much much more.
lots of love, Kay x
-
Hi Hops! I've been hoping you'd post an update along these lines... I've been wondering how the you - who isn't just a role or relationship or function is.
I'm hoping you get to some peace soon, on the D situation. There is no "right" way to be in a relationship... and relationships necessarily change - up & down - close and distanced. I hope that in accepting the reality you could've done some things differently, you're not blaming yourself. After all, your D isn't totally helpless and without some accountability, too. She seems quite bright, despite the MI issues. Continuums... most of the time we're somewhere in the middle, right?
As to health improvement - well, I'm in the same canoe with you... someone was talking in their posts about motivation and I think for me, this is the real issue... and not so much will or determination or persistance. I know I can be an overbearing juggernaut when I'm totally clear about what I want and when I think what I want is worth it; worth fighting my way through my own bad habits and emotional sludge to get to. I wonder sometimes, how much those old N-patterns of relating affect this in us survivors? If, perchance, we absolutely "need" that dysfunctional relationship... a negative simuli... to activate those feelings, strength, and brain circuits?? You know: like a dare - OH... you'll never do that... you can't do that... A close friend reminded me of the god-awful effects of doublebinds on our motivation, too. She's pretty heavy but otherwise also pretty physically fit. She made a bet with someone that she'd lose enough weight to be bikini slim by spring. Her mom constantly carped at her about losing weight, too... and now that she's watching portions and not eating emotionally... her mom is carping at her about how she doesn't eat enough to stay alive. She feels like there's no "win result"... no atta girl... no matter what she does. But I think we decided that SHE COULD JUST MAKE UP HER OWN and not depend on or care about getting it from mom. Why does this have to come from someone else, for us to think it's important enough to commit to???? (see above; it's what we learned - the "way it was" - with our Ns)
I think we're going to go for a bike ride this morning... which ought to make me realize just how much I've been "giving up" on this front; escaping, too. That's OK, though. Because here's the deal, Hopsy-m'dear... sometimes we have to hibernate; slow everything down like this and pull the cotton wool around us into a cocoon... to get through losses, grief, and even simple drastic change. It's OK that we do this... for a while. It's only when I start hearing the old abusive tapes in my head, that I haven't justified my existence on the planet because I didn't do this, that or the other things... while I'm craving that cocoon, with every fiber in my being... that I'm just totally messed up, miserable, and I start up the old dysfunctional scripts again... like a hamster who's programmed to run a wheel - even when no wheel is there. Then, I tend to cling & hide in the cocoon. So I make it a present moment cocoon... accept it fully and feel how much I needed it... tell the old tapes to piss off... and usually the next day, I feel as though I have more energy again. I think we've "needed" that cocoon for a long time... and that it's somehow related to the motivation above... and while life doesn't give us days on end to cocoon all at once... there's nothing wrong about making time for it each day or once a week... or whatever. The reason why we need the cocoon isn't always obvious.
"Shoulds" are one of the most evil, manipulative and unfair things about how we think, as people, sometimes. I mean who died & made whomever pronounced the "should", Queen??? Shoulds aren't very damn creative, either!! Now, the thought of a rebellious Hops... that's got my creative juices going! I wonder.... what is she like?? I kinda think that rebellion against that's been bad in our lives... is a GOOD thing, don't you?
Maybe I'll join up the disobedient daughters...
-
Heya Hops, Yes, Good luck on your dates!!!!
That inspires me a bit. Where did you meet these guys that you want to date?? What are they like? Hum :D
-
This is a VERY productive place to wail. :)
Thanks, y'all.
Boat, that was an amazing lyric. And absolutely bone-clear sight of me. Thank you. Your advice to play, even if it's sort of "fooling" the mind into wanting and caring again...really makes sense for me. Thanks. You're right.
KZ, this may sound dumb but having someone just tell me I'm good, and kind, is really helpful. It's like, that reassurance helps me calm down the critical voice in my head that thinks, oh yeah, you can be compassionate and all, but here are all these lacks (got a legal pad handy?). You just remind me that sometimes it's enough to be as good as one can. Thank you for the kindness.
PR, that's a great anecdote about your friend needing to develop her own "win-result" -- and having that really be all about herself. Amazing what a huge assignment that is for folks with toxic mothers. But that's it, really is. I understand your cocoon thing too and believe there's no "should not cocoon" going on...I just slowly learned that my cocoon was becoming a little like the frog's comfy pot of cold water. I got SO comfortable being isolated and sedentary, for years...that the effort it takes now to haul myself out, is daunting. But I'm doing it bit by bit.
Bones, this time of year I get motivated to meet nice men. So far, for the last few years, I do it a couple times and turn myself off again. This year I hope I'll have more patience with the process. Want neither too little nor too much. So, I'm on an online thing, and nice men send me notes, not a flood (too old, most men rule one out) but enough. This month, I decided to respond to a couple, even wrote to one. So I have a date for a glass of wine with a retired actor this week, after work (that's always the challenge, to motivate myself after a 9-hour day to go do another thing before I get back to my cocoon)...and in a couple weeks another one, a retired professor, who lives a few hours' away so we're going to meet in a town halfway in between. I have another old friend there so she and I will play for a few hours first.
I am automatically skeptical of actors but that's not fair and he's clearly bright and interesting. I really do enjoy meeting people so that part is almost always fun, as long as I just relax and stay in the present. The professor is a widower and pretty nervous, but clearly from his writing a sweet person. So for both, I think it'll be fine. Just practice, just practice... No plan or agenda, I want to actually experience the moments I'm in with them. (When I've done it in the past with a big fantasy--very hard to not have it kick in way before it makes any sense--it always backfires into anxious stuff. Thiis time, I neither want to fall in love nor avoid falling in love. I just want to have the glass of wine and be there. Be present there and then. Not really much before, and after will take care of itself.)
hugs all,
Hops who had a Happy Sunday (but really appreciate the safe place to wail yesterday)
-
Sounds good, Hops.
There is a drawback or disadvantage to the cocoon phase - and I struggle with it myself (in case ya hadn't guessed). That is that the only input around me... is me. I'm not always my best friend nor do I always mother myself that well and well, one brain is just one brain and I think humans are designed to function better (brainwise) in collaboration with others. By now, I think I've honed my N-radar skills plenty... and I worry a lot less about falling into another one of those "traps"... so while I'm not exactly knocking on people's doors proposing "lets do something"... I'm also not the shrinking violet, content to just people watch all the time. The fears are diminishing.
I'm getting more and more convinced, that there can be a serious growth spurt in some of us at an age when previous generations just resigned themselves to "who they were" and gave up, let go... all expectations of new and interesting experiences. And the more willing we are to let our old selves (and beliefs about ourselves) go... change... adapt... the more energy there is to "move on", already. I figure, if there are things I've always wanted to do or be... well, at my age I'd best be getting on with doing 'em!! (A sequel, if you like, the first half century's sob story...)
-
Dear Hops,
I mentioned a few weeks ago in another thread (don't remember which) how the members on this board had influenced me by example. So many times, you have been there with your calm words of wisdom from your, kind, understanding heart. You are consistently comforting and inspiring. You've set a good example for me as I walked through the fog. Thank you. I agree with KZ, all the way.
Love,
tt
-
Hops:
I SO identify with you on the self care, motivation, moving your life forward section: /
I wish we lived closer..... so much easier to address other people's stuff.
For me, everything in the house has some attachment. Old things. Forgotten things. Paperwork things are all charged with emotions, but I'm very good at getting things done for other people, but one box of old photos can derail my day.
About the housemate situation, I think your roomate should have come to you before having this other person begin hanging out in the space, like a 3rd roomate. It's one thing to have her there when the the roomie's there.... quite another to just leave her on her own. Not fair, IMO.
If she wants to move in, that should be a discussion, and it should require another share of rent, and expenses.
((Hops)) Sorry about sadness for d. I'm really hoping this is a tremendous time of growth for her.
::blowing big wet raspberry at your boss::
Jerk.
Happy New Year, my friend, and may your dates be interesting if not just what you wanted; )
Lighter
-
Hops,
You know I don't lack for opinions, but they're just opinions not decrees :lol:.
It may or may not be too late to address the situation with your housemate, but if it isn't these are things (in addition to the regular stuff) I'd address in a written agreement. I don't know how to write in legalese - hope the gist of what I'm trying to say isn't too scrambled.
1) Requirement for additional people to move in - written consent from me. If consent is given additional rent at a rate of $_____per person per week/month would be required. Without written consent, you have the right to collect (a specified amount, say $35* per day) from each additional non-paying person in court at their expense. 2) Requirement for more than 1 vehicle (per paying renter) to be parked on premesis - written consent from me. Without written consent, additional vehicle(s) may not be parked on premisis over night. Violatior's vehicles would be towed at owner's expense. (3) Making an exception on any part of the contract does not nullify the contract.
There are lots of variations on this theme. The contracts are a way to keep things in decent order. My experience is that if it isn't addressed in written form with signatures the 'boundaries' get really blurred and feelings get hurt and everyone loses.
BTW, I think these agreements should be fair from all sides and they can be.
tt
* Motel 6 rate!
-
PR, TT, Lighter, Boat, thank you.
PR, I hear you on the growth spurt. I think old age should be incandescent. Well, low-emitting diode, but you get the idea.
TT, your kindness is a freshwater ocean. Thank you. You offer it over and over and I'm each time lifted.
Lighter, thank you for the cheer and the raspberry! I hope this winter feels hopeful and hearth-ful and healing for you.
Boat, date report: The "nice but nervous" professor made a date with another woman, committed to exclusivity with her immediately, canceled ours. I wrote him I felt a little hurt and dismissed (he was cold and formal), wished them well. (Advised him to read--surprise!-- A Fine Romance. Maybe they'll make it!) Ta ta, over that.
The actor was as I knew he'd be: very smart, very interesting. Also very open. Told me a lot about himself and his tumultuous life. Attractive. The kicker: he is alcoholic. Difference: 2.5 years sober, completely clear about it, zero denial, and obviously "working the program." Even so, gives me serious pause. Another: As part of his amends, mentioned writing his ex that he knew she'd experienced him as nearly "malevolent." I asked about that a bit later and he said No, he meant "mean spirited." (Either ain't good; and she doesn't speak to him now.) He's attractive, gracious, courteous and engaging company. Asked me out again. I'll probably go, just to have fun. But perhaps I should make a different judgment. My cautions to myself, which are good to record here:
--if you're active alcoholic for 50 years, you're not fully adult (since much formative time was spent in primary relationship with booze)
--people tell you the truth about themselves when you very first meet them and it's very important to believe what they say
--so, he told me he was mean in his marriage (made clear he was never physical, I believed him). But mean-spirited, which he attributed partly to doing the acting thing...which he said he left because it was so self-obsessive, became loathsome, was shallow, didn't like the way people were so self-absorbed...I believe that too
--so, he told me he was mean in his marriage
--so, he told me he was mean in his marriage (he had a few criticisms of her but then said he didn't want to go there; clearly it was a miserable mess)
--so, he told me he was mean in his marriage
There was nothing mean or cold in his demeanor with me. But that was first date. I also found him quite honest. And, here's the danger zone for me--he has an absolutely fascinating life story. (The writer in me loves the drama.) Oh, I almost skipped the reddest flag of all.
--His mother was crazy. In and out of institutions. So he grew up with that as his strongest female model. A terror figure. Terror and pain. (Only other man I've known with that kind of mother was like an abused dog. Frantic for love but so terrified he'd snarl. I knew I couldn't blame him but also didn't want to take it on.)
--He became hypervigilant (hence, perhaps, a critical spirit? He described "detesting" his lazy son in law, but on further description, guy sounds like a benevolent slacker who is actually a great house-husband and father). Words like "detest" alarm me a bit.
--He's been an emotional wreck in the past.
Positives:
--He's sober.
--He seems to own stuff.
--He has done a lot of work on himself.
--He has a fascinating story.
--He seems to have renounced a lot of awful stuff and desribes his deep contentment with what he does now...a physical job, cowoker a refugee he's been helping and teaching, living in a beautiful place, grandkid-sitting, traveling a bunch (I could see some compatibilities in present lifestyles)
I wonder, though, if my ghosts would fear his ghosts.
Advice welcome!
xo
Hops
-
Hops:
I love the way you pay attention to detail, and to your feelings/intuition/reactions.
It's seems likely you'll enjoy another date, and that you'll continue paying attention.
My advice:
Don't dismiss any flags, or make the first excuse for poor behavior,
and,
of course.......
remember to enjoy yourself: )
Lighter
-
Your ghosts already do fear his ghosts.
I'm reading Hops!
You inspire me. I would say try to find some additional guys to date at the same time that is the strategy that I get out of my advice articles and dating books. That way you don't put too much weight on any one guy.
I'm glad you had fun. It's intriguing getting to know people even if the person is not a potential partner.
Sorry, but my gut instinct says don't allow yourself to get romantically dragged into this Actor no matter how exciting his drama is.
We are looking for love right? Not the lack of it, not so much drama that it clouds any love that comes through.
Hay but it's all up to you...
Happy to hear about your dating!!! Did you go out for dinner? What did you wear???
-
Well, Hops... I gotta say that this former actor-guy sounds a lot like "one o' us" on the board. And perhaps, since there is evidence that he's actively working on his life... blooming later... I could be tempted to give him the benefit of the doubt and maybe even see him on a regular basis for a while... with a lot of boundaries in place, just in case. We are examples of how people can change, right? Other people can and do, too.**
I like Boat's suggestion for you - to date some other guys too - and I would keep repeating to "Sean Connery" that you're only dating at this point... you're not looking for a "relationship" with anyone at the moment (this is a definite boundary) - here's why:
You have enough on your plate right now with "complicated" relationships. Period. You don't need to slide into any new ones.
With that one simple boundary... there is plenty of room to explore, watch, feel, spend time with another person. But, it's YOUR boundary and it helps you remember that the exit is well-lit and only a few steps away. It also reminds him, that he doesn't call the shots... tempers his expectations... and in that one little boundary, tells him you respect yourself enough - to not get lulled into any situations where strings become attached... until YOU'RE ready. [you can always change your mind later...]
**People can and do change. My hubs had two disastrous marriages, mostly because he so loves women and couldn't keep his hands off. I told him early on... that given the era I grew up in (and my own alley-cat history)... I didn't have a lot of hangups about monogamy -- but that I really didn't want to know about it. I told him to lie to me, in other words. Because I absolutely enjoy being with him, care about him... and as long as he remained in relationship with me... I was fine.
Now, I can't get half a day to myself unless I leave the house!! He has no individual social life, activities... he's stuck to me like glue. Be careful what you wish for???
Anyway, I completely understand that you are being reasonable listening to your ghosts... acknowledging his ghosts... this too, is something that happened early with hubs & me. And it gives us some common understanding and compassion... an emotional comprehension of the other that I guess is one reason why (it's gonna be 12 yrs this fall) we're still together. Understand, I was terrified that my own judgement (given 2 N-exs) was flawed and I was never giddily head over heels comfortable & relaxed... for more than a moment or two at once. But it's been a great 12 years... even with all the life-crap we've been through. It's been way easier to go through it with him right there next to me.
NOW enough o' that... what did you wear, Hops? And - when do you think you'll hear from him about going out again? Is he cute? Distinguished? Does he have a sense of humor, perspective? Does he "play"????
-
I wore a big wooly sweater and black jeans...it was verrrrry cold out.
(It's a luscious sweater.) I do put in some extra effort (no spinach in
teeth, brush hair, nicer clothes)...but avoid making a first date a big
dress-up thing. Because my wardrobe is what it is and I'd rather be
pretty similar to my normal self.
And I just met him at the nice restaurant I've mentioned here,
that I can reach fairly easily on my way home after 9 hours. So...
work clothes. Great food...I devoured my pasta primavera.
Boat, I think your gut is right. My head is attracted to him (the story).
(Forgot to mention he's also physically attractive, fit, lovely shoulders,
lean, and nice face.) Some of his roles have been "senator" etc. He
was a boxer when he was young. Yikes. But...I understood it when
he talked about it. (Never the striking another person part, I'll never
ever get that, but he was explaining how his hypervigilance helped him
be pretty good.) He's masculine. Prrr. Pleasant to be around that.
I think non-exclusivity and dating more than one person for a while
are very good innoculants against fantasy. I don't want to fantasize.
Don't even know if anything will happen "next" and I don't want to
preoccupy with "will he call". It's not important. If he doesn't, that's
good. If he does, that's fine too. I can answer what feels right then.
I can also contact him. Or not. Not feeling internal pressure about it.
He asked if I'd like to go hear jazz sometime and I said I would go.
I gave him my cell number. He urged me to join him on FB, I said,
sorry. I don't feel like I'm waiting for him to ask me out
again. I am just not interested in fantasizing. I'm interested in what
actually happens. Or doesn't. In the present. Seeing what I learn
and how it feels. (The jumpy professor who went off the rails before
we even said hello? I'm relieved. I think he was more self-absorbed
than the actor.)
PR, no signs of much humor or playfulness -- but then, acting is playful.
He was in a major accident and in rehab they directed him to drama therapy.
He fell in love with it. He'd never acted until his 50s and it's remarkable how
much success he had.
I just realized, PR, that what I'm describing is the lack of flirting.
I didn't want to flirt. I laughed and smiled and he did too, but it
was because we were enjoying a pretty animated discussion. He was
telling his life story though...and it wasn't a comical one. So laughs were
brief. But the storytelling, and the listening, were good. He talked a good
deal and I encouraged him to -- twice he mentioned that he didn't want
it to be all about him. That showed consciousness of not wanting to be a
monologuist (and from the other stuff he'd said he's clearly figured out that
he is, can be, was for a long time...self absorbed). I told enough of my story,
much as I wanted to.
I am not grim in approach but I think flirtatiousness and play is too early for
me at this point. I need for two adults to speak clearly and speak a lot, before
that safe feeling kicks in. Slow feels good.
I enjoyed his company quite a lot. And he looked pretty pleased too. So
we'll see. He may chicken out and not follow up. Or I might too. Or not.
I don't feel any pressure about it either way. It was a good thing to do,
whether it was a one-off or not. Just don't know. It's all PRACTICE.
Enough o' that. One date is one date so I don't want to focus much more
on it. I'd say it was a successful experience.
And a good distraction from wailing!
xo
Hops
-
Oh, Hops, I'm smiling ear to ear for you: )
Just remember, and I'm a little late posting this, but.....
if a man trys to change your NO into a YES, he doesn't respect your boundaries or preferences.
Trying to change your mind is a red flag, and worth paying attention to.
lighter
-
Pur....Puuurrrrrrrr.
Nice Hops! Very nice, I'm glad you had an enjoyable evening eating pasta with a sexy actor.....Very very good.
8)
-
Wisdom welcomed, Lighter...thank you. No turning Nos into Yeses. nonononononono
((((((((Bones))))))) -- I am telepathically sending you his little brother.
xxoo
Hops
-
Wisdom welcomed, Lighter...thank you. No turning Nos into Yeses. nonononononono
((((((((Bones))))))) -- I am telepathically sending you his little brother.
xxoo
Hops
Thanks, Hops!
Bones
-
I just realized, PR, that what I'm describing is the lack of flirting.
I didn't want to flirt. I laughed and smiled and he did too, but it
was because we were enjoying a pretty animated discussion. He was
telling his life story though...and it wasn't a comical one. So laughs were
brief. But the storytelling, and the listening, were good. He talked a good
deal and I encouraged him to -- twice he mentioned that he didn't want
it to be all about him. That showed consciousness of not wanting to be a
monologuist (and from the other stuff he'd said he's clearly figured out that
he is, can be, was for a long time...self absorbed). I told enough of my story,
much as I wanted to.
Ahhhhhhhhh.... (she says, chewing on the pencil)....
You're absolutely right! Flirting might come later; might not... and it sounds like you enjoyed yourself and him. That's really all that's important, right? Talking... this is what we do in 1st grade... telling our life stories and what we've learned... at our age... getting to know if Mr. Interesting "does" as he "says he is"... and us, too.
Sweater sounds perfect!! I used to love oversized, chunky knit fishermen's sweaters. And you know, I'll bet you made a striking 1st impression.
-
Hows dating Hops?
-
It's not happening...I'm swamped in work. And my D is coming. And I'm behind on paperwork.
My job is consuming.
I am verrrrry ambivalent.
Or rather, maybe it'll happen again but the amount of time I have to focus on it is pretty limited.
So I'm not expected any momentum or regularity to it. Dating isn't an active verb in my life so much
as something that happens now and then.
(Actor has said he's having surgery and will be out of touch. I found that odd and do not care.)
Someone else has written, again a bit oddly -- like, do you want to meet and see what there is between us?
I perceive no "between us" (he's only chatted about weather and horses) but might as well say okay to meet.
Thanks for the reminder. It feels like work!
Hops
-
I know, I do this too Hops. It feels like I have to have energy to date, sometimes the activity of dating is energizing also!
Me too I'm ambivalent about people. I sort of like and dislike being ambivalent...Its nice to just be on the fence sometimes.
At least I tell myself I have the right to be ambivalent no matter what the other person says because I have the RIGHT to feel things out as much as the guy does.
It is work.
It's not happening...I'm swamped in work. And my D is coming. And I'm behind on paperwork.
My job is consuming.
I am verrrrry ambivalent.
Or rather, maybe it'll happen again but the amount of time I have to focus on it is pretty limited.
So I'm not expected any momentum or regularity to it. Dating isn't an active verb in my life so much
as something that happens now and then.
(Actor has said he's having surgery and will be out of touch. I found that odd and do not care.)
Someone else has written, again a bit oddly -- like, do you want to meet and see what there is between us?
I perceive no "between us" (he's only chatted about weather and horses) but might as well say okay to meet.
Thanks for the reminder. It feels like work!
Hops
-
A little dating story for you. I'm 43, never married, no kids. Single, live with 2 adorable kitties (one 14yrs, one 2 1/2).
Met a guy, originally for business reasons, through a friend on facebook. Guy was interested asked me out, by im on facebook. I agreed to a date, then thought it over and he's really not my type. Overweight, 46, divorced, smoked cigars, drinks too much, talks too much and a namedropper. Not at all my time. I prefer a healthy, thoughtful, solid fit guy.
Anyway, we made a date, I prayed he'd cancel. When the day came, he had not called to finalize plans, so I called, but was already annoyed at his lack of follow thru. Low and behold, he canceled. I was relieved. Why did he cancel? He spent the night in jail, because he got a DUI. NOT KIDDING. My intuition was correct, sadly.
Weeks past, he was sick and had not rescheduled. I wondered if he would or possibly, if that story could be a lie. So, I immed - he didnt answer my questions (odd and rude) and asked if I was "around on friday". I said yes, and before i knew it another date was made. This morning, I had already decided I wanted to cancel and seeign a friend get engaged last nite was a sign to me that I would not date any maybe's. I have no interest in this guy and he is wormy, asks me out via im, doesn't make it clear its a date, wants me to meet him there and he'll "be with friends".
Anyway, so today comes along and I send him a note canceling, suddenly, then its a DATE and he tries to be cute. I wonder what he put his wife through...
The point is - I foolishly made a date with someone completely wrong for me, not once, but twice, No harm done really, I should have said NO the first time!
-
Know what I noticed, Ales?
Never mind your faltering action the first time, the SECOND time you did cancel!
That's just as good as having done it the first time.
Doesn't matter when one "gets it" -- you're getting it!
I have a little shopworn anecdote about how for so many many years whenever I thought
of the expression "Two steps forward, one step back" about myself...the only word I ever
heard, deep within, was "back."
IOW, I gave myself no credit for the actual math, which was that I'd moved FORWARD.
xo
Hops
-
"Two steps forward, one step back" about myself...the only word I ever
heard, deep within, was "back."
Funny how this happens, when all your life, you've only heard the "back" from the people who matter to you... and never ever got the pat on the head or recognition for the forward. After a while, you feel as if the forward is a hallucination or a dream... and only the "back" is real. One starts to expect this...
Even funnier... I mean odd-funny... is why is it, that so many of us simply accept that interpretation from others and don't believe in, don't trust our own perceptions, intuitions, and rational brains. Why don't we ever challenge that? with those significant other people in our lives, that is. I think a lot of us have "given ourselves permission" to this in work and other social situations... why are some people harder for us to take on?
-
thoughtful query, PR...
I think for me self-doubt was crippling because I assimilated such a toxic sense of shame from
early religious training. Guilt and sin and fear just permeated, even wordlessly, something I
inherited (more from my mother's side, which was toxic evangelical with incest) ... about God,
being good.
So in any struggle to think something against the "herd" (if you can call a bland kindly
mainstream denomination a herd) -- I heard my own idiosyncratic and rebeilllious thoughts
and then I "heard" bellows of judgment, damnation and all that. Not actual bellows or in
in my actual church, but coming somehow from my intuition of my mother's fears.
I didn't undersand what they were about but I think that's why it was so hard to trust
my own girl-self.
It took me so many decades to work out that I passionately believe in original INNOCENCE.
I think that new belief was the bare beginning of the long slow climb to better (hardly perfect)
mental health.
xo
Hops
-
I passionately believe in original INNOCENCE.
Me too, Hops.
And I'm pretty sure that's the source of my dogged persistence to find solutions; fix things and people - and refusal to let things go - and not just accept that "this is the way things are". I subject myself to the "IF ONLY's" a lot. And boy, is this misunderstood!
LOL....
-
Two steps forward, one step back" about myself...the only word I ever
heard, deep within, was "back."
Hops
Currently I'm on a kick on reading about relationships. I'm ashamed to even check them out from the library I kind of hold the books sideways so nobody will see the titled...goofball that I am. I noticed that sometimes I'm just so horrified by what I don't know of relationship to others, HOW much families LOVE one another, HOW much some people WORK at relationship, and how weird it is to even approach these topics when I have a blankness, a void, a scratching around in the dark to figure something out that is foreign. So for me the two steps forward...its like one step is survival and faith, and the other step is Total ignorance because THERE is so much I don't know about life and how to live. Things that others can take for granted about life and family and relation is Mystery to me.
-
one step is survival and faith, and the other step is Total ignorance because THERE is so much I don't know about life and how to live
I cannot believe I'm giving math-based 'advice' -- take with barrel o' salt, considering the source...but...
Boat/Tree/Starlight:
1 step forward = survival and faith
1 step forward = total ignorance openness/willingness to discover (seriously, those are also a fair translation of "ignorance")
-------------------------
2 forward
- 1 step mistakes, bad luck, necessary corrections
-------------------------
1 step forward
I think your two 1-steps minus one 1-step add up to FORWARD.
(Particularly since what you call ignorance is reported in the same post in which you describe your very persistent decision to learn...self-help books are a sign of HEALING! Just to be reading them is absolutely awesome. Do you know how many people never even TRY?)
hugs
Hops
-
Things that others can take for granted about life and family and relation is Mystery to me.
Me too Starlight.
That can be a real depressing and self-condemning thought for me tho'. So I try to follow that up with:
"at least I'm thinking, reading, trying to learn..." -- because people who take things for granted usually don't think about those things much. In fact, they probably weren't all that consciously aware of their opinions and habits as they developed them -- they just learned by osmosis... like kids learn their native language. Unexamined - they're going to have as much "negative stuff" in those areas they take for granted... as we might have questions, lack of experience, and yearning for the nirvana that we THINK those experiences are.
Couple years ago, I ran across a "recipe" for well-being - it was the conclusion of some studies by social psychologists, I believe. They were saying everyone NEEDS - Autonomy (boundaries & sense of whole self), Self-Efficacy (belief in one's own competence), and Connection (relationships and feelings of caring; being cared about). Those are the three "main ingredients"... and everything else is the spices & extra cheese or whatever we use to "customize" that well-being. It's like ground beef, onions and garlic... that could be the basics for Italian, Mexican, Cajun, or even 50's midwest potluck dinner casseroles...
hmmm. is it too late to eat breakfast?
-
It's okay guys. Sometimes I just express and my questions are not always literal questions just my expression of where I am at.
Hugs (((HOPS and Phoenix))) You guys really are generous with your kindness. Thanks for listening.
-
Hi Hops, How are ya doin?
-
Vewwy wewwy weawy.
D left her little poor starved kitty with me and I'm allergic but he's been through hell and back (the "friend" she left him with for 2 months, with permission, etc. -- literally starved the cat). So he's weak and lonesome and I'm coming home every night to feed and scoop, clean up, and then cuddle with him because I can't bear not to. He's eating more but it was such a shock. Former portly cat looked like he'd been liberated from a Nazi camp. And...I'm allergic to cats, so I am uncomfortable. But I'll deal. I love him too, and it's a way of loving my D.
BTW, my D was SWEET to me while here this time. One brief spat over leaving a kitchen mess, then a few hours later she brought me a lovely hot meal she'd made, and we started talking about the cat.
She's off back to NC for some of her mental health appts., and I am so very glad she's doing this. Was painful to pick up a copy of her hospital receipt from the trash and see "HOMELESS" as her official classification. But she's starting to do more active things and I still have hope. She'll be back in a week.
Nodding off...more later
xo
Hops
-
Hon, it sounds like you need someone to come feed, clean and snuggle YOU!
Hope you get some rest.
-
Thanks, PR--I do need more rest but I can also see another reason you said that!
I have gone back and edited out the multitoooooodinous typos in my last post.
(Quite surprised me this morning...noticed I'd signed it "Mops". Hmmm...)
I have to NOT post once I've taken an Ambien!
Literally looked like "drunk writing."
Snort. And from an "editor."
Hops
-
Dearest Mops,
So glad you are wining, sniveling and complaining and not being your staunch, brave, survivalistic and brilliantly capable self. Good to hear it. I think deeper, longer and more active complaining is in order. Beats getting cancer or having a heart attack. Serious wailing for shorter duration really helps fluff the clean laundry of the mind. Basically, your mind is full of clean laundry.
Your daughter is on her own path. Trying to help really bugs her. It makes a wreck of you. I wish for you peace and contentment.
Love,
Sea storm
-
Thank you, (((((((Sea))))) --
I always, truuuuuly, appreciate encouragement to wail!
Hugs, and thanks...
love,
Hops
-
Wow! you are actually dating. Good for you. If it is like looking for a job it takes a hundred nos before a yes.
I tried dating and met the most amazing group of eccentrics and pretty crazy people. Example: one guy refused to buy furniture for his house to get even with his ex wife (??????) and the only thing he had was a lawn mower. Another guy had 10 cats. Another guy was a really scarey prison guard. I came to the conclusion that I could not order up a life mate like i do a pizza.
Well those guys who blew you off did not realize what a precious treasure you are.
Sea
-
Well. Well. Another man in my life saga....
my D's blessed sweet cat, who got starved by a "friend" she left him with...down to fur and bone, poor thing. She was desperate, asked if I could take him for a week. (I'm allergic, have asthma, and am showing the house so the realtor says, kiitty's gotta go.) It turned into 2 weeks, 3, then 4. I kept asking when she'd come get him, and she'd say, "later." I felt tricked and trapped. I fattened him up and loved him, cuddlng a couple hours every night. Uncomfortable but endurable. He is so sweet. But his loneliness weighed on me every morning and night...he needs company. That sorrow added stress.
Long story short, I told my D couldn't keep him, told her over and over, and then for a while was angry--not so much the stress and added labor, but feeling like my soft heart for animals was being manipulated. She'd abdicated responsibility but it's still an animal I also love.
Realtor stepped up the pressure and I decided to try to find a foster place for the kitty here in my town. Whole bunch of effort, chuch's FB page a friend posted for me, etc. Finally, one of my closest friends called up and said never mind all that, I want him. Hers will be a perfect safe affectionate home for him.
My D called in a near-rage (your Friend is not keeping my cat--I just don't have a way to get there.) I don't know if it's just gas money or whether something's happened to her car. Anyway, my friend wants to keep the cat, but we agreed on giving my D a deadline of the end of the month to reclaim him, or it'll become a final adoption. Friend was clutching him (triggered old losses of her own) and my D is outraged (and not grateful). So I've offered D two dates before the end of the month when I could bring the cat to meet her at a halfway point. Waiting to see if she'll be able to function well enough to get there.
Other wail o' the week is having thrown myself into a huge project I was assigned (which is very outside my bosses' comfort zone but very important for the company to get to its next stage -- anyway I really poured on the effort and skill, and it was narrative and he speaks spreadsheets only, and didn't really understand its structure or the pupose of the content...so in the little meeting (me, my two new young male colleagues who have basically been respectful--Nboss looks ar the first huge section draft I had produced and says, "When I read this, it made me want to gag." Wow. Quite a putdown. Totally demoralizing but I'll find my personal motivation to continue the effort anyway.
I felt kicked in the gut. Respect has been so hard won there, and to have him speak that way to me in front of them was humiliating and embarrassing and, well, disrespectful. Sad to see that Nboss is still the woman-dissing thing he's always been. Makes me very sad because I keep forgiving and re-forgiving and the cycle is misery-making.
Hops
-
Dearest Hops,
You have been my anchor through many a bad spot.
You have taken care of so many, including those of us on this board.
Just as you had your mother’s best interest at heart, for so many years you subjugated yourself for her.
When does Hops get to live for herself rather than everyone else?
Maybe just a week to step back and take care of you instead of everyone around you?
You deserve that; more than deserve that.
Can you give yourself a vacation?
Time where you can say, OK, enough, I am going to give this week to me?
IME, it is worth taking the time to reccharge.
Can't express how much; love you Hopsy,
Peace
-
I'm sorry Hops... the way that post started, I was hoping for a little cupid action in your story. I'm truly sorry that it's the SOS from the same old NBoss. Not afraid to say what he thinks, is he? I'll keep my fingers crossed that the two young'ens are part of the new breed I'm seeing who have pretty strong values and detest bullying. They'll have the testosterone to stand up to NBoss, if they are invested in the project... maybe not to their benefit, but because they think it's the right thing to do. Those kids are definitely out there and I'm definitely keeping my fingers crossed and secretly smiling about how they'll manage things when we're old & feeble.
I think you've held up your end of the agreement about kitty and even gone above & beyond. Even your solution about fostering the kitty is extremely fair, a really good compromise... and how that finally falls out is completely up to your D. Please don't let thoughts of disappointing her or anticipation of more anger from her stop you. It's the best thing for you - and kitty.
Here's some good news to think about: a friend of my D's was in the drive-thru lane at a fast food place with her son. The car ahead of her, paid for her meal... so she did the same for the car behind her. I think that is a pretty cool Valentine's tradition to keep going.
Peace gave you some good advice - even if you can't get a week to yourself, you really need to carve out some time for self-nurturing, re-creational stuff. Maybe an hour at a time to start?
And here's a big hug to give you permission to take that hour off!
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HOPS))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
-
Hops:
I guess there comes a point where you might just have to smile and give a little mental finger touche check in the air when the boss throws a zinger your way.
You can give him marks for performance.....
"Wow, pig.... made you want to gag? Really? Gag? A little off your game today. Could've used more colorful language, like, "made me want to upchuck my red and green moo goo gai pan lunch all over this report," and so on.
He really is predictable, and the more adult/responsible/professional you are, the more petty/misogynist/unprofessional he likely appears.
You. Smooth, unruffled, and always professional.
Him? Behaving like a toddler in the office.
Res assured, he's not always sweetness and light with everyone else, all the time, when you aren't around.
About your d, I haven't seen any updates in a while, so I'm just glad she's back on her feet, gettin feisty about her cat.
It's a frustrating situation, but it sounds like things have moved in a positive direction, despite kitty's predicament, which seems to be improving as well: )
Thanks for the update. I've been hoping in your direction.
Lighter
-
Oh, oh oh.....
Good luck selling the house, Hops!
It could happen: )
Lighter
-
Thanks, guys!
I just gave myself a "sick" day.
I guess "not feeling well" is honest enough...I feel fairly sick at the thought of seeing Nboss today, so I'm going to stay home and get some extra rest. Haven't been sleeping well, or exercising. So after lolling the morning away, I'll take a walk in the park too.
Thank you for encouraging me to take care of myself.
xo
Hops
-
Hops, I have been reading. Refraining from responding, wrote and then erased. Anyways, your boss is a major A-hole and I hope he has a heart attack and I don't care if I go to hell for saying that. He could have said a lot of other things, what he said wasn't in anyway constructive. I'm just thinking about what a world of difference there is between a person/friend who wants us to succeed and do well versus a person who wants us to fail and wants to see us suffer. A WORLD of difference. I wish there were more supportive and good hearted people in this world. Its sort of a war for one's own soul.
XXX Good luck XXX
-
Hops, I used to do those kinds of sick days - I REALLY needed them, too. It helped me keep on at my job, longer that I really needed to be there (for me)... made it possible. It actually got to the point where I told my Nboss that I needed - and was going to - take one Friday off a month for awhile to de-stress. He let me do it... probably because I became a real pain in his @ss... while I was figuring out what boundaries were, at work: which ones I could respond swiftly to defend... and the others that didn't really matter. I still chuckle over the time he barged into my office (I subsequently learned to lock the door) to insist I drop everything & do something totally unreasonable right that moment... and I just looked up and said NO, I'm not going to do that... we can discuss it in our weekly meeting next week.
hee hee heee!
-
Well, his radar must've belatedly been going off because when I didn't go to work today he wrote me what sounded like a pretty sincere apology for his tone during the meeting. He didn't reference that particular comment but said he had a great deal of respect for me and wanted to "show it more."
I accepted it, and at the same time spelled out how that remark felt to me at the time.
So that's good.
It's too bad it's such a struggle for him to respect a female, but at least ... there's some awareness maybe.
The real bliss is that he's off on a Central American vacation now for 10 days.
:)
Hops
-
Why do jerks get vacations. Why GOD?
-
Due to his own efforts AND the effort of me and 2 others, he's made millions.
Got 40 acres and a "green" architect, and built a spectacular home.
(When I asked to be paid the same as the men with same senority...well, you've heard that saga.
He doesn't feel any shame that the only female (except for the last hire who is the store clerk)
and the senior creative person, drives a 14 y/o car and wears the same Goodwill clothes, year
after year. Something, probably learned from the guru, feels "right" to him about this. Or at least,
he's untroubled by it.
Sexism or pay inequity isn't part of "his dharma" to fix. He said, "Should I feel obligated if
you 'feel poor'?"
There are so many great moments. He raves about the young men who work for him, one
having been an eagle scout, another whose family had a factory...on and on. Three years
after I'd been working for him daily more closely than anyone else--building the brand and
the site and 50 articles on the blog and practically every "public image" deciision we've made,
and having editing every single thing he's written for public distribution (and few of his letters
to lawyers) he hired me he said one day, don't you have a Master's degree in journalism? He had
no idea what my degree was in (creative writing) and has never asked me one word about any
of my 30 years of previous jobs. It's like --any job you had before working for MEEEEEEEE is
not worth my notice.
One of my other favorites was when he remarked one day , "Any English major could do your
job, but I could never replace THEM (the two young men)."
When it's not so oppressive it feels like great material for a memoir...except my fondest
hope is to retire soon enough that I can spend years never thinking about him.
But I am not wailing right now because it's peaceful at work in his absence.
PR, I love the defiance stories too. In the private sector in a bad economy though,
I could not assert myself that overtly to Nboss. Nbosses do retailiate and such.
Hops
-
Oh, I know Hops - how well I know. I stayed 10 years, hoping one of the "higher ups" would finally do something... that he'd finally hang himself. It came close a couple times, but he was able to shift the blame (and the firing) to someone else. If there was no statute of limitations, the lawsuits would be an arm long... precisely because of how Nboss treated women and how the "rules" didn't apply to him. The guys in my office knew Nboss was insane and a jerk, but except for 1 or 2... there were never any confrontations or "reasoning" sessions.
That job followed 14 years with N-Ex #2... and I fully believed that I shouldn't complain - compared to other women - because I was so, so familiar with the schtick; I was used to it. I could "take it"... until I couldn't. At that point I was really confused about what was going on with me, got funnelled to my T, started learning tai chi.... and I bided my time there, learning all I could about how co-exist with an N without being a victim (not sure I ever figured that out)... and practicing the skills I was learning in T. I spent a lot of time in my office (door locked, of course) - on this board, instead - those years. Even the simple knowledge that I was teaching myself to stand up for myself... learning how to "turn the tables" on Nboss once in a while... helped me endure it without taking it out on myself, until the opportunity came up that I could leave.
I should dig around in the pile o' memories in my head and see if I can come up with some more stories for you. Some of the things we went through were really pretty funny - in retrospect. I was fortunate that there were so many women around me in that job - who'd had exactly the same experience (or worse) with him. We commisserated a lot and let each other vent the frustration out. Here's my favorite about N-Ex#2 (who I'd bet money actually knows your Nboss from the same guru circles):
L decided that we needed a canoe and that he could teach himself to fly fish from it. I liked to camp; knew how to canoe, fish... so at first, this seemed like a peaceful activity where we could actually spend time together. We didn't spend a lot of time together, because I commuted to a teaching job where my class didn't end until 11 pm. So one day, we're out on the lake pulling up to shore again... and from the back of the boat the "boss" commands that I jump out into the water and pull the canoe further onto shore. He'd been busily telling me "how" do everything that afternoon... I'd been keeping silent... and well, don't you know Twigs had had enough? ;)
He was standing in the back of the canoe dealing with tackle, oars, etc and I just winged the front of the boat up and about 6 ft on shore. He fell right over the back of the canoe - SPLASH! It was a 3 Stooges moment, for sure. I was laughing so hard the tears were streaming... as he came up sputtering with angry comments... to see me incapacitated with delight. What could he do but laugh it off? I was doing exactly as I was told... and there were other campers nearby.
In that respect, it's a really really good thing that Twigs is an opportunist! LOL...
-
Hey Hopsy,
I completely understand not being able to get out of a bad situation due to economy - completely.
I found that the only thing I could do....
When my boss was bad mouthing me and on the flip side taking credit for my work...
I'd imagine him/her with little piggy ears, a snout, and all words coming out of his mouth (other than those complimentary - although those were manipulation to keep me working) as .... oink, oink, uh, oink'ed, oink, oink, oink.
I don't know if it will help, it certainly won't give you the credit you more than deserve, but maybe it may take the sting out of a pig that doesn't have a true stinger. :D
I have hope for everyone, so it makes me very uncomfortable to call him a pig.... but the situation is what it is. And you don't desrve to suffer for it. It isn't about you - it is about his limitations (which seem many IMO).
Love you Hopsy.
FP
-
Great fishing story, Amber. Just a shame your sexist boss wasn't sitting right beside him. Double splash!
I remember in a state job how the sexism/corruption things were even MORE frustrating than in the private sector, in a way...because one was inculcated into believing that employment laws were strictly observed in state institutions. That "rights" were not messed with.
In the private sector, where it's more clearly a fiefdom, it's just more clear that the one with the money has all the power, and that racism and sexism and nepotism and all these others things that aren't "supposed" to happen still do.
Thanks, FP, you summed it right up:
badmouthing
taking credit for your own work
compliments that feel manipulative
I am not suffering as much as I used to over him. I think the general changes are:
I am speaking up for myself more. Not more aggressively, and not with perfect timing, but generally, I'm being more open and honest. Advocating for a better raise worked halfway, and a small raise that I achieved by sticking up for myself is precious to me, even though I'll never reach parity. And I'm telling the truth more (like how I feel about something.) Not with drama, just not pretending I agree if I dno't.
Next goal is to do it more fluidly and right in the moment.
Another goal is to mask my vulnerable feelings more. (With fatigue and stress over D and being the oldest, it's a job to do that.)
Another change is that I intentionally forgive (and re-forgive) him. I have found this does not make me feel like a martyr or a victim. It just makes me able to feel happier. It's almost like, forgiving him supports a boundary. I can stay safely behind my own self-wall even while forgiving. Like "trust, but verify" -- it's "do not trust, but forgive". So I'm guarded more the way one is over things that are dangerous that one chooses to keep an emotional distance from. But while staying guarded (my own wellbeing boundary), I find I can in parallel still forgive him in a more genuine way.
The other reason I'm forgiving him more often is that I am sometimes sensing a genuine desire on his part to be "good." I think he struggles with it. So I'm demonizing him less. I do not wish to "forget" what he's capable of though. Whenever I do, that's when I get re-hurt.
The previous "speaking up for myself" was when I advocated directly to him for a raise and though I couldn't get him to reach equity, he at least raised it a bit more after I wrote him. That was a big deal, that I actually told him how I felt about it. Whether it's his "dharma" or not! Generally, and I don't expect to do it perfectly...I am speaking truth more, and with less fear. So that's good.
I'm learning also to take his "compliments" with just as much guardedness as I do his "badmouthing" -- they all come from the same place.
Last time he took credit for my work in a large meeting, when it was time for discussion, I said with a straight face (shortly after he'd announced, "This is what Hops and I did" --- "I think it may help the group understand the project if I explain how I did it" and then...I explained how I did it. It was very clear who conceived, designed, surveyed, wrote up and analysed it because nobody else, including him, could have described it with that much knowledge.
--The other general change is, my two new young colleagues also "get it." They see him for what he is (and me too, no doubt). One thing I need to keep processing is that the newest young man will go to him with a request for something that I've been telling Nboss for years we need, to do our function. He would automatically tell me NO. The young man? He's just bringing up what he needs to do his job, and boss basically hears him respectfully (no gagging, evidently). It's maddening. But not the young man's fault. So...lots of sucking that up is needed on my part. One JOYFUL moment for me was when the other young man, whom I work with pretty closely, said to me one day, "Do you think he just rejects your suggestions sometimes because you're a woman?" Wow. It was like water after crawling across a desert...he is the first person in the company to ever: see what's real, and say it to me. I could've hugged him.
FP, you're right, it really is NOT about me. The more I recall that...the easier it is to tell myself, What is about you is your simply focusing on doing good work, being productive, and moving the task forward. Just keep doing that, and you'll be okay.
Thanks for the understanding. I really appreciate that.
love,
Hops
-
...That "rights" were not messed with.
In the private sector, where it's more clearly a fiefdom, it's just more clear that the one with the money has all the power, and that racism and sexism and nepotism and all these others things that aren't "supposed" to happen still do.
Hops
Conversely I thought it was strange the way gay people were helping each other get jobs at one metropolitan place I worked.
There were so many gay people who worked in that office I thought this can't be a correct representation of the percentage of people who are gay- that's not diversity, its a monoculture. The company also celebrated gay pride day. The business had nothing to do with gay pride specifically. Some places are amazingly liberal to the extreme.
I think I was seeing gay nepotism because boyfriends were helping other boyfriends get jobs there and were quite blatant about it. Lots of smirks all around. But of course that is "politically correct" though.
There was a lesbian couple that had their donated sperm delivered to the work place and they were celebrating all this. I thought what the heck does that have to do with the business and can't you pick up your sperm somewhere else? People are told in employee orientation not to bring their personal business/stuff/issues to work with them - well I guess sperm delivery at work to a lesbian couple is politically correct. It's one thing not to harrass a person, it's another thing when their insemination becomes the topic of the week at the office.
Unfairness occurs everywhere. I see it at the foodbank that I go to. Some of the volunteers give preference to certain ethnicities and I'm not talking about the white ones. I didn't believe it for certain, some of my "neighbors" were telling me about it. But then one day I noticed that the woman behind me just pointing to all these things she wanted behind the counter (cherry picking) and the volunteer was giving them to her. So I asked him for the same thing and the volunteer wouldn't give me the same things although I could see the stuff plainly in sight he acted like he didn't have any. I was irriated on the principle of it and because my neighbors had described this treatment to me. I got a little louder then I normaly do. I kept on saying "I want to know why she gets to request certain things and I can't"....so somebody gave me one more item. Of course that wasn't the point. So when I got home I called the manager there and he said he suspected this was happening.
These people see it as making the score even.
It happens on all sides in different ways.
-
Hi Boat,
I struggled with my response to your post.
I think it was the "these people" -- for gay people, and presumably people of color.
That "other" talk is trigger language though I know it was also honest utterance.
I don't think unfairness is good any way it happens but I find if I lead with love, I can understand things faster.
Like, why members of a minority that's known vicious class-wide prejudice --including being murdered just for
existing--might develop some "compensatory payback" kinds of pack behaviors. Positive or not, fair or not, I
can surely understand how that can come to be.
So if an incident makes me feel "huffy" then I remind myself, this is very old, very old, and it
really is not an insult to me. (I don't have to like a rude/bad behavior, though!)
What's scary is when scarcity, or inadequate resources, trigger conflict along "tribal" lines.
Think of prisons. It always saddens me that with all the power of those mighty walls, the system is completely
defeated by class hatreds (once the most precious resource, freedom, has been removed) and so, matter-of-factly
segregates by race. There's not even the pretense of integration there. Though individuals who know better,
still grieve over the hatred.
We have so, so far to go.
Easy to remark to someone who's not experiencing any "privilege" at all these days, but studying
about white privilege has been an eyeopener for me. I'm in a community-wide "Dialogue on Race"
project for the second time, and learn something new every time about the daily hostilities and insults
people go through.
Hops
-
Hi Hops,
Really has nothing to do with Narcissism but this has stuck in my memory:
There were two separate cases of sad police brutality where I live. One involved a white male victim, one involved a minority status victim (but not black). Both cases were in the news but only the minority story resulted in civil rights groups getting involved and public protests. In both cases the police were found not guilty even though huge sums of money were paid out to the family members of the deceased and permanently brain injured. It was obvious how wrong both cases were. The minority incident received a disproportionate amount of attention and a higher level of inquiry and legal scrutiny in court even though there was no evidence that the reason why he was targeted related to his ethnicity at all. Groups like the American Civil Liberties and so forth can at times represent races rather than principles from what I have heard in some discussions that come out of these events.
I don't think there really is a true principle or moral of fairness in life though...its not really the way the human animal seems to operate.