Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lighter on October 08, 2019, 07:03:47 PM

Title: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 08, 2019, 07:03:47 PM
I was having a hard time deciding which thread to update, and realized these two topics need to be merged, so I'm starting a new thread.

This past weekend I wasn't able to remain level, and it was disturbing for me, bc my old negative judgments about myself kicked in, making it impossible to dig myself out.  Part of that was one dd's struggle that rubbed up against my own struggle.  It was unexpected, and her pain just knocked me sideways. 

After seeing T yesterday, I'm back to getting outside her pain, so I can be more responsive to her, and myself.  DD doesn't share many details, so I'm alarmed easily by some things I see, and don't have answers for.  I explained this today, but over the weekend we were both rocking and rolling in bad head spaces. I recognize dd's stoicism as one of my negative coping strategies.  It scares me for her.
   

I see I can't always be proactice around stress, and limiting it.  It just happens, often when I'm not expecting it where the girls are concerned.  I can do what I can with regard to MY stress.  Opening mail when I'm ready.  Not answering calls likely to upset me until I'm prepared. I can't always see the girls' stress coming before it overwhelms me, and then I lose ability to properly handle my own stress.  The frustration and disappointment I feel don't help ANYTHING.  Ever. 


To that end, I haven't figured out how to loosen the grip of survival mode when i I can't catch it early.  This weekend was a close up chance to really SEE the struggle as it happens, and notice how things go.

  Catching it before I drop into negative belief patterns might be a big part.  I can't tell yet.  Maybe I'm complicating it, and it's simpler than that. 

Breath. 
Focused attention.
Zero judgment.

Just that simple.  KISS.  Keep it simple silly. 

I'll practice, and continue building pathways, and rituals around what needs to be done.  There's no other choice but moving forward now.

T amazing, and helps remind, explain concepts in several says,  draw connections that build on each other,  and strengthen new strategies and understanding of all the above.  There will always be another COW (crisis of the week) for me, and the girls, and friends, etc.   Each COW has the same remedy.  I just have to master the reme.... NO.

I don't have to master anything.  That's one of the traps.  Believing I have to do things a certain way, and I just don't.  I can let go of that.

T told a story about a monk, I think.  The monk said he'd been practicing mindfulness for 30 years.
 WHen he mastered it, he'd move on to something else. I'm paraphrasing, but it's a thing. 


Every time I leave T's office I experience conflicting emotions around what's possible, and what's likely

What is possible feels very hopeful to me.

WHat is likely does NOT  feel hopeful to me. 

It's possible to figure out how to overcome our hijacked biology.

It's unlikely humans can overcome seeking/avoidance patterns in order to build something new, IME.

AAAaaaaand I'm back grappling with acceptance. 
 

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 08, 2019, 10:54:08 PM
My evening is easy, enjoyable, and what I would have referred to as 'flipping the switch" 2 or 3 years ago.

I did a check to see what else is going on... both dd's are having great evenings too.  One continued making good choices around food... grocery shopping after her workout, rethinking her choices, putting everything in her basket back, and doing something not involving food.  I just see that as a super fantastik sea change around choice for her.   I don't have to worry, bc she's perfectly capable of doing it herself. 

Other dd's energy and mood has improved since we talked this morning.  Both our energies and moods were low.  My parasympathetic nervous system was AWOL.  I was weepy, and vulnerable, and shared concerns about some things she's doing that remind me of things I've done, and I just really wanted her to understand some of it.  More to do with codependency, and traits.   I think it was time to share, and I'm glad I did it, even though I struggle with being vulnerable, and dropping my stoicism.   I did it.   I'm glad.  Ouch, but it's a good thing.   DD is fine, laughing and playing internet games with her friends, instead of sleeping in a dark room, barely eating. 

 


So, kids feeling OK =  I'm feeling OK.

I think I figured out some stuff that helps me too. It's not just that the girls are feeling better, IMO.
  I talked to a friend about some of the paperwork stuff, and this is someone who's known me since I was in  my early twenties, worked out with me, worked with me, lived with me, and gone through terrible times, hers and mine, and come through the other side.  I bounced stuff off of her, and we both figured some stuff out.   I needed her to understand some of the paperwork stuff, bc she just did not before that conversation. 

I see how difficult it is to get out of a spiral, even if I know what to do.  That's a piece of information I didn't see coming.  2 steps forward, one step back, but still moving forward.   

I enjoyed this big surge of creative energy...I  lit up the back porch, cleaned the table, changed batteries in candles, made a big beautiful salad with chopped egg, ham, carrots and hummus...  topped with a beet balsamic dressing I think I got at Aldis.. .good stuff. 

When I decided to run a bath, and light the essential oil lantern (peppermint tonight), I found I was also enjoying the feel of handling the Epson Salts, and scattering them in the water. That's not typical.   I can focus on the little things.  This is what it feels like to be in the zone for me, and I enjoyed making my white sheets pristine today.   

I thought about starting a sewing project to remove cool hoods from Goodwill items, embellish and sew onto tops and coats I already love, but wish had hoods.  That's new.  I've wanted to do it,  but this time I felt like doing it.   

I ran into dd on her way to shower, she had her self care products with her. I let her have the bathroom first, so I could take my time in the tub, then did another load of laundry and finished making my bed.  I look forward to sleeping on clean sheets with open windows, and cooler temperatures blowing in.  It rained all day, and the moss is so happy.

Nite.   

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on October 09, 2019, 03:33:19 AM
Lighter, I am going through very similar at the moment so I understood very well what you were writing about.  The attempt to 'catch' the reaction before it takes hold is something I am working very hard on and I find it much more difficult to catch when it involves son, in the same way you mention you needing the kids to be okay for you to be okay as well.  I do wonder if parents can ever be really alright if their children aren't?  I was saying to someone yesterday that I don't feel I can even begin to settle myself unless I know son is safe and happy.  I do understand what you mean.  And can't offer any words of wisdom!  I'm still struggling with it myself :)  I think with me (I don't know if it's the same with you) that it's a combination of adulthood trauma (paperwork, phone calls, legal battles, stalking incidents, harassment etc) that also triggers childhood trauma (not being heard, not being safe, not feeling valued) and current fear for child (are they safe?  are they happy?  are they making the same mistakes I did? should I let them?  or try to stop them?  am I a good enough parent for them?  and so on).  I was saying yesterday that when it's one of those aspects I can usually catch it coming and deal with it.  But when something triggers all three at the same time (which I think college/local authority battles are doing at the moment) then it's too strong and it just takes over quickly, and takes a long time to climb back down from.

As you say, I think perhaps all we can do is keep trying, keep practising, keep trying to create new links and routes and hope that, eventually, those pathways will be stronger and keep us in a more even place.  What I find difficult is that I don't feel there is sufficient opportunity to heal, because the wound keeps being ripped open with new or repeated incidents - smaller than the earlier ones but very real and present, none the less.  I think it's very hard to create the new pathways and new ways of being when you keep having to live your life every day and are kind of exposed every day to a possible trigger.  I remember saying years ago that if I could go off to some sort of retreat and spend a year healing - nothing else, just quiet, therapy, exercise, reading, healthy meals - I reckon I could achieve more than I have in twenty years of having to try and do it whilst dealing with everything else as it comes up.  But we can only keep trying, right?

Your description of your scented bath and then climbing into clean sheets sounded heavenly :)  I hope you enjoyed it xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on October 09, 2019, 10:08:28 AM
Lovely thread topic (and posts) but I don't think my little ADD brain can separate these two topics very easily. I'll just chime in if I think I can say something that makes sense...

When it comes to sad children I can't.

Cheering y'all on,
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 09, 2019, 03:28:52 PM
No worries, Hops.

Today I was working under a hemlock tree, and I kept seeing something out of the corner of my eye. It startled me over and over... three times.

I thought, I've worked under this tree many times, and this is just odd.

Then I remembered seeing something move out of the corner of my eye last night, startling me several times.   I saw something in the kitchen, that seemed to move, but it didn't.  Just glimpsed something my brain registered as new, or not supposed to be there.  A hemlock branch kept startling me.  Brain said NEW, not supposed to BE there.  I reminded myself of a dog, scared of something familiar... something he put in his own bed, then forgot.

I HAVE MY PERIPHERAL VISION BACK!

 I can't remember backing out of the drive this morning, and usually backing up is memorable bc I have to crank my neck so far to do it, it hurts.  I didn't crank my neck this morning. I have zero memory,  it just didn't register, bc I can see normally again!

 I did the brain integration session around my vision, and anxiety driving in reverse...  was that last year?  I addressed the anxiety, but not the narrowed vision.  I stopped walking around with 3 pairs of glasses on my head, and the anxiety improved markedly, but I was still having to turn my head to see what I used to take for granted.  My brain KNEW there was a probem, that things weren't OK. 

I have peripheral vision again, and the yard looks great! 

Lighter

 

 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 11, 2019, 05:59:14 AM
Yesterday had 6 hours of driving in it, and would have been enjoyable if not for the traffic. 

I worried a bit about a face to face with someone I've been conflicted about... over new and old offenses that finally caught up with me.  I tend to pretend I'm unbothered,  and ignore until I can't ignore any longer.

There were final straws.   I put boundaries in place.  I FELT like I was retaliating, but they were just boundaries, and you know what? 

I
felt
better.

Better for having the boundaries in place. 

Better for not having continued negative feelings.

Better for enjoying the visit.

Better for getting in and out, no drama.   Not getting dragged into conversations I resent... usually me being grilled, and stupidly answering all the questions. 

This time I wasn't grilled, and I was fine with the a typical silences.

I didn't have to endure gossip, or being told stupid things about myself that aren't true.  Why do people repeat gossip about me TO ME?  THis person used to.  Not anymore.  That's just a boundary, and it's a good thing.

Really great day.

I have a lunch with a friend who's graduated a 2 year meditation program recently. He's been scarce and I look forward to seeing him. 'Should be a great visit.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 14, 2019, 06:48:29 PM
I entered my T's office in a very level mood this afternoon.   '

I think the EMDR really helped get me into a better head space, so we dug into something unexpected.... I thought we'd be working on something from my childhood.   Not today.  Instead I chose the paperwork, and financial stuff that's been vexing me for years.  T said it would likely lead back to childhood stuff.   So be it.  I needed to start there today.   

SOmetimes it drives me to my knees.... like a sword driven into my shoulder,  through my body..... and that makes things difficult to embrace, or finish, IME.

So, she let me escalate into the "story" for a while, then stopped me when I'd lost sight of the room.  We moved away from the story, and into deep breathing...
 in and out....
I breathed space into the tightness, and pulled apart mentally what felt like very dense cotton in the affected areas... replacing them with pink cotton full of air and light.  Always brining light  and spaciousness into the pain/tension, etc.   

Then it was time to go to my happy place... my old tomato garden.  It was all mine.  I tilled it.  Planted.  Weeded.  Tended the vines, watered and fed that lovely jungle of plants.  It was marvelous, bc I was fit, and super happy on my own,  post first divorce.  Nothing like a crappy 2 years of marriage to make you remember how lovely it is to be alive and single.  I filled baskets with lovely fruit for the people I loved, and I twirled happily in the sunshine. The taste of sun warmed tomatoes...  the smell.... the sound of the birds... my toes wiggling in the grass.... the breeze, the butterflys, and crickets.

So, once I was "there",  bc the mind can't tell if we're there for real or not, we did the EMDR but this time we added blinks.  EMDR waving of her hand in front of my face... my eyes following her hand while picturing myself IN my garden then she'd say "Blink fast, once".  Not easy to do, and my tongue wanted so badly to wag along with and help out. 

It got easier as we went,  to remain focused on the garden, and we progressed to two blinks.  Then three.  Then four.  Then back to 2. 

This is supposed to give the brain the chance to go ahead and process the emotions we brought up earlier.  In seconds, just get on with it, bc the brain doesn't need much help.  Just the chance.  As I think of it the left side of my temporal lobe feels full, then relaxes.  Strange. 

At the end of it I couldn't quite find the strong emotions when I went back and thought about the story again.  I tried.  I just couldn't,and that was a good thing. 

The story isn't important.  What's important is the emotions and where they manifest in the body, and bringing compassionate attention to them, bc it's just time, and they're asking to be tended to.   

The pressure was all gone, and there was just a tingle of anticipated pressure when I tried to find the strong emotions.   

So, I got a good rant in about truly crappy training that goes into training our court officers,  police officers, and got stuck on attorneys, and judgments around the money, and being stolen from all these years, with people pointing at me, accusing me of being a theif, a liar and and a cheat.  THE NERVE! 

OK....  see.  There was a little indignation, but it didn't go into my body.   It was more of an intellectual  statement of facts, rather than something that swept me up, and robbed me of my ability to think clearly,and made me cry.

Like a child. That's so sad to me. 

And it is old wounds that come back around, torn open and made present again.  Right THERE, in your face, setting your feet rigth back in the place you were standing, FEELING IT ALL AGAIN that first time, and every time it comes up, fresh, and completely raw.... unprocessed.... asking for our calm attention so it can move on to where it wants to be.   Refiled,  and out of the here and now.  In the past.  Finsihed. 

I am all for more of that.

::nodding::.

Hops, I'll be able to be more responsive regarding the things that really tick me off.... as listed a couple times today, if I'm not spinning when I think about them.  It would be good to live a life with very little spinning,  IMO. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 21, 2019, 10:43:56 AM
Less resistance means there's space for other things, IME. 

I about ducked while walking the trails this moring with baby girl pug.   Something moved off to the right, and the flinch reminded me I'm still not used to having expanded vision.  I'm always shocked when that happens.  I wonder when I'll get used to it.   

More ease, and less anxiety generally in my life is a relief, bc I trust myself driving again.

Life is better, even though diving into trauma stories brings up some anxiety the day of T sometimes.  Sometimes I'm completely relaxed about it. 

I will say this... I AM STARVING, hungry all the time, Yogi MUST EAT, starvin and Marvin, y'all.

It's a thing; )

Friend with gallstones, who was taking Phosfood, seems to have found relief without having her gallbladder removed.  She'll go in for a scan soon, as it's been about 6 months since the last one, to see if there's any difference.... hoping stones have been dissolved.

She's been eating smaller portions, and dropped 20 lbs, bc of that change, with zero increased activity. 

My sib's FIL just went into the hospital with gallstones, and will schedule surgery for removal of gallbladder very soon, so that's disturbing.  So many gallbladder problems.   

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on October 21, 2019, 11:05:44 AM
So happy that you're finding ways to deal with the anxiety, Lighter.
I majored in it and know how miserable it is. Driving is huge.

Glad too that your friend is doing better with her gallstones. Wonderful outcome.

I think you have expanded vision in more ways than you know.

I'm off to the airport in an hour, still half packed, as usual.

Will check in tomorrow if my suitcase finds me!

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on October 21, 2019, 11:17:27 AM
Processed food is killing a lot of people. Having Steve around, and a pro chef too, I'm way more conscious of how I eat and what I'm cooking. I think it's possible to completely lose one's taste for processed stuff; and it happens more quickly than one would expect. Also, I think it's a thrifty choice too. A pound of carrots can go into 4-5 different meals and is usually under $1. Yes indeed, the "investment" is in the menu, the meal planning & cooking. I've learned to see that investment of time & energy as self-care, caring for others, giving back, and a creative endeavor. Big shift for me from my years with Mike.

I still have my vices food-wise; but my strategy for changing habits has always leaned more toward increasing the "good stuff" and eventually, the bad stuff will go away. It doesn't look as if one is doing anything and that part of our brains that identifies with things doesn't get all riled up and resistant. It's almost applying some of the principles of "push hands" to habits. Works for me anyway.

CoDependence query:

What is it that makes people repeat a mistake of being engaged with toxic people? Or relationships that eventually become acknowledged as "one way"?

I can't decide if it's just a habit of neural pathways or an "emotional click" into something that feels familiar. And maybe it's something completely different. The very same people can have strong healthy boundaries but still find themselves repeating the errors of judgement in discerning people and relationships. It's that moment when someone "takes the bait" and the hook gets set, like a fish that I'm wondering about.

And then, there is the moment when they realize they've done it yet again - and now find the process of extricating themselves irritating, painful, or devastating.

This isn't any observation of myself or anything I'm going through. Just observing people around me and pondering the concepts.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 21, 2019, 08:48:24 PM
I believe it's neural pathways, and an unconscious seeking behavior to finally resolve old struggles.  It's not just one part of our brain... it's all connected, and there are different ways to process the information coming at us, IME.   

 OH.... the satisfying click when our sickness fits perfectly into the same shaped slot of opposing sickness.... and we're going to solve it, ALLLL OF IT this time.  That was first marriage stuff for me.  Likely for many of us here.

And we aren't aware, IME.  We're choosing to focus on the differences, therefore completely sidetracked from the things that actually draw us together, IME. So easy to deceive ourselves, IME. It feeeels so gooooood when we come up against that old problem.  It feels like we're finally going to be happy... finally going to find the answers... finally going to be good enough... finally going to be loved for who we are, and it's intoxicating.  It's something I learned to run from, hence.... marrying an ASPD the second marriage, who I wasn't attracted to, and having children at 37 years old.   I thought I'd cracked the code, but I was wrong.  SOME part of me, way down deep in my subconscious KNEW.

I do think our intuition can work all this out, and help us sidestep the old struggles.  It just has to stand up to the old hope.... and require we honor the intuition more than we honor the desire to resolve the old struggle, IME. 

This reminds me of the saying...
"Sometimes the you eat the bear.  Sometimes the bear eats you."

The bear eats us IF we don't honor our intuition, IME.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 21, 2019, 09:01:15 PM
I'm sharing this lovely message from Madisyn Taylor I found on DailyOM this evening: )

Oct 21 at 3:03 PM

   
   


Meaning

BY MADISYN TAYLOR
How we attach meaning to events in our lives has a large influence on the quality of our life.

The meaning we assign to our experiences––whether pleasant or distressing––is a very powerful factor in determining the quality of our lives. What we imagine events to mean will color the way we feel about ourselves, about the people in our lives, and about the world at large. If we want to encourage a positive outlook, well-being, and a sense of self-confidence and even trust in the universe, we can begin by assigning more peaceful, loving meanings to what we experience.

Imagine, for example, that a friend fails to show up to a lunch date. You have choices as to what you will make this experience mean for you. You could allow being "stood up" to reinforce your feelings of unworthiness, you could begin to mentally attack your friend's character, or you could assume that something big must have happened to cause them to miss the date--then, you might open yourself up to enjoying some relaxing time alone.

If you were recently laid off and are having difficulty finding a new job, consider that you might have hidden gifts or passions that were untapped in your regular career that you are now available to explore. The universe might simply be moving you in a more fulfilling direction. If you have recently lost a loved one, gained weight, lost money, or gotten in a fight with your partner, see if you can infuse the experience with meaning that feels loving and empowering and opens a door for you to embrace life and the world a bit more.

When we begin to bring consciousness to what we are making things mean, we may be shocked at the messages we have been feeding ourselves all these years. Try taking the reins and begin assigning a kinder meaning to the events in your life and you will likely find yourself on a much more pleasant ride.
   PRINT          SAVE          DISCUSS   
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on October 22, 2019, 11:15:22 AM
Hmmmm.... just quickly riffing mentally here, I may change my mind about this after I ponder & observe some more...

INTUITION, yes. That is a big contributor to the meaning we assign events, especially interpersonal ones. It can over rule conditioning. But we do have to consciously engage it; too often in the moment - we're just running on auto-pilot and that's when conditioning takes over.

If we SEEK, and we set up a close replica of the original situation that could be left unresolved to our satisfaction... then, how can we possibly expect different results? It's akin to the old cliche about the definition of insanity; it's really just up to US, to do something DIFFERENT; try another way; something NEW. We need to grant ourselves permission to take that risk, fly by the seat of our pants, and really DO something different.

Maybe people can't even see that; until they have actually identified what they are seeking; accept that it failed to provide the expected results; and it's merely a concept in their mind - a thing, apart from the self. Which means it can be edited; changed; with work and conscious attention.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 22, 2019, 02:43:13 PM
Hmmmm.... just quickly riffing mentally here, I may change my mind about this after I ponder & observe some more...

INTUITION, yes. That is a big contributor to the meaning we assign events, especially interpersonal ones. It can over rule conditioning. But we do have to consciously engage it; too often in the moment - we're just running on auto-pilot and that's when conditioning takes over.  In my experience, intuition pops up, and speaks the truth BEFORE conditioning, or reactions pops up.  I've put boundaries in place, bc of my intuition, but failed to enforce those boundaries, bc..... bc...... I allowed the conditioning to come up, all painted and in very pretty form, presenting as something it wasn't, and my failure to honor my intuition was the true failure.  It wasn't the conditioning,  as far as I can tell.  I walked away, and felt relief.

I was targeted, and tricked by an ASPD N, bc of my failure to honor myself more than the pretty stories the PD was weaving.  I knew better, and my failure was enforcing the boundaries.


If we SEEK, and we set up a close replica of the original situation that could be left unresolved to our satisfaction... then, how can we possibly expect different results? It's akin to the old cliche about the definition of insanity; it's really just up to US, to do something DIFFERENT; try another way; something NEW. We need to grant ourselves permission to take that risk, fly by the seat of our pants, and really DO something different.  I think we seek to set up the initial problem ONLY IF we fail to give attention to the difficult emotions around that story/problem.
  IF we bring up the emotions with the ability to bring logic and problem solving skills to it, then we don't have to repeat to resolve.  We simply give our brains the chance to process the emotions, so they can be filed away in the FINISHED AND DONE file, once and for all.  Until we can do that,
 there's always the chance we'll repeat the struggle in an attempt to relieve the stress that keeps popping up in our brains, the exact stress in the exact same places in our brains where the initial stress happened.  In that case, it FEELS like we're in that spot, the day it happened, in the same place it happened.  The brain can't tell the difference.  The brain shifts into fight or flight automatically, and we keep getting the same results till we come up under the sympathetic nervous system, engage the parasympathetic nervous system, and engage higher thinking.


Maybe people can't even see that; until they have actually identified what they are seeking; accept that it failed to provide the expected results; and it's merely a concept in their mind The story is just a concept... the emotions are very real, and in need of our attention.
 That's why they keep coming back up, over and over.  As long as we're experiencing them in the limbic system, with all the judgment, and fear around the initial wound, we can't bring our higher thinking online to finish processing and filing the hard emotions where they need to go.
- a thing, apart from the self. Which means it can be edited; changed; with work and conscious attention.  Not edited.  Processed, and filed appropriately.  Once we do that, the emotions stop clammering for attention.  We have relief around that emotion, and the stories are no longer charged for us. 

I think we're talking about the same thing here.  Not really sure; )
Lighter

 

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on October 23, 2019, 09:14:27 AM
Yep; I think we're both saying the same thing. Different vocabularies and ways of "knowing" something; understanding. It's a good thing in this type of thread to have more than one way of describing something. Different words.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 23, 2019, 09:38:18 AM
When I take in lots of different information about a topic, it helps me understand, integrate, and recall that information in a helpful manner when I need it. 


I see my T today!  It's funny.... when I think of her,  I can smell my happy tomato garden: )

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on October 26, 2019, 07:19:27 AM
Gosh you've been busy on this thread, Lighter, I've missed loads!

I think I've kind of got a handle on my codependence issues at the minute.  What I find difficult about new habits and new ways of thinking is keeping them up when busy or stressed.  It's easy for things to slip away when you're rushing around a lot.  It sounds as if you're managing to keep the balls up in the air, which is good.

I am finding my mindfulness needs a purpose.  If I try to think about the washing up as I'm doing it I just feel bored.  If I think about how I feel when I walk into the kitchen and it's tidy that feels better for me.  And on that note, I am just off to cook lunch :)

Hope your session with you T goes well and that you have fun in your tomato garden :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on October 29, 2019, 04:22:12 PM
I love the happy tomato garden, Lighter.
Your description was so vivid I could see myself there.
Lovely.

A WEIRD question:
Is it possible that one can get lost in mindfulness or that it ever becomes a ... kind of ... escape from stuff? I might be looking for excuses since I'm way too stuck in my head. I'm terrible at meditation or lengthy mindfulness. I've done it enough in workshops etc to know how amazing it can feel, but am never successful at maintaining it for long.

So maybe I'm just looking for a rationale for why I flunk it!

Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 30, 2019, 02:08:52 PM
Hops:

If the question is....
Can anything become belly button gazing, faffi g about....
I'm positive the answer is YES.

Like helping an addict....one has to take stock of outcomes.  IS the practice helping us get more of what we want, or enabling poor habits and strategies to continue?

As I drive 2 vehicles daily quite often, I'm noticing how confused my brain is over controls....wipers today with the rain....emergency brake, just lots of things.

I assume it's the same with waffling about with minfulnes d's for me, which is imperfect, and difficult to incorporate.  That's why I'm seeing this T every week.

I do feel I'm moving waypoints.  Last night I found 3 documents out of 6 files I've used over the years for the dock.  Chaos rules, but everything I needed was found.

I found 2 letters from MIL to oldest DD, and didn't feel a thing.

That's a huge departure, and I'm learning how to handle my Cows....always will be another Crisis Of the Week.

I think practicing mindfulness consistently will be like driving one vehicle all the time with the confusion of changing up every once in a while.  My nervous system will calm down, and give me time to select responses....build new pathways up till they're as familiar as driving a car every day.

I think I have to do that hard work or I'll always fall back on old pathways when under stress.

Daily mindful practice is about beefing up preferred pathways, imo.  Cultivating joy in each moment as habit. 

I'm ticking this out with one finger while waiting for the bus.  Let me know it parts or entire response needs clarification: )
Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on October 31, 2019, 05:34:06 AM
Lighter, that is amazing news!  So great that those letters didn't trigger anything off, and that you were able to find the things you need in the sea of paperwork.  I am sometimes amazed when I open a file at how well organised it is despite the fact I have no recollection of doing any of the work :) There is obviously a bit of the brain that just sorts stuff out for us :)

Hops, if it's any consolation, mindfulness and meditation don't work for me, either.  Meditation just makes me fall asleep (I think the naps help, though :) ).  And I have a problem solving kind of mind, I think.  I find I don't want to concentrate my thoughts on what's going on right now, because most of what's going on right now is boring and makes me want to throw myself off a cliff.  I function better if I can
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on October 31, 2019, 05:39:15 AM
I pressed the wrong button!  Lol.  I find I function better if I problem solve first and then can focus on how nice it feels to be in the bath or how my body feels when I'm doing yoga.  But when I'm stressed, anxious, upset or anything like that the last place in the world it feels good to be in is inside my body and I find trying to focus on that just makes me feel worse, plus I get stressed because I'm not dealing with the thing that stresses me :)  Lol.

I have had interesting chats with the acupuncturist guy about all these sorts of things and I do think some people's brains are just wired differently and function better in different ways.  We were talking about that thing about acceptance - just accepting the situation you're in and not fighting against it.  But I immediately think of all the injustice and inequality that I think we should fight hard not to accept and to just go with.  So for me I kind of take what I want from these things now and leave the bits that don't work for me.  At the minute I'm finding it easier to cope with stress because I can channel my anger or frustration or whatever into moving and/or setting up some work from home.  I have another goal to work towards, which helps me cope.  Before I felt like whatever I did drilled me deeper into the pit and if I focused on that I just fell in a bit more.  So I have no idea why it helps some people and not others :)  But just wanted you to know you're not the only one it doesn't work miracles for :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on October 31, 2019, 08:32:08 AM
Aye-yie-yie... I know what you two are talking about. Where if ya don't start deconstructing the problem right away and looking for points where you can change it... you feel even worse. IMO, that's because of past roles parenting the parents; we put that pressure on ourselves to try to hold things (and people) together. And then that whole thing can spiral out of control. Emotionally; bio-neurologically and then physically.

What mindfulness is suggesting one do, isn't 1/2 hr of meditation so much as... giving yourself permission to "take care of yourself first". To take a time out; breathe yourself present in your body FIRST... allow yourself to remember "I'm safe in the here and now"... and really feel solid in that space before turning to look at the "problem" again. Some people can do that during activity, as well. Washing dishes works for me - especially putting dishes away in my small kitchen. I turn that into moving meditation, tai chi, dancing... whatever. Just to get "present" in my body. It kinda sets the tone for the day, for me.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on November 01, 2019, 03:56:16 AM
Aye-yie-yie... I know what you two are talking about. Where if ya don't start deconstructing the problem right away and looking for points where you can change it... you feel even worse. IMO, that's because of past roles parenting the parents; we put that pressure on ourselves to try to hold things (and people) together. And then that whole thing can spiral out of control. Emotionally; bio-neurologically and then physically.

What mindfulness is suggesting one do, isn't 1/2 hr of meditation so much as... giving yourself permission to "take care of yourself first". To take a time out; breathe yourself present in your body FIRST... allow yourself to remember "I'm safe in the here and now"... and really feel solid in that space before turning to look at the "problem" again. Some people can do that during activity, as well. Washing dishes works for me - especially putting dishes away in my small kitchen. I turn that into moving meditation, tai chi, dancing... whatever. Just to get "present" in my body. It kinda sets the tone for the day, for me.

That makes sense to me, Skep.  I know I've talked to several people about what happens when I start to 'spiral'.  If I don't catch it before it happens then it takes forever to get back down out of it again and I find it so exhausting.  It is like an instinctive response - almost like an out of body experience in some ways.  Like an autobot takes control and you're kind of banging on the door trying to get back in so you can put yourself back in charge.  It's catching it before it takes off that I find really difficult to do.  We must all keep practising!  Lol.  I think Lighter is star pupil on this one :) lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 01, 2019, 03:42:54 PM
Amen, Lighter, to what Tupp said...you're the consistent and devoted one, and you really know from that kind of discipline. It's like martial arts but inside you. Awes me.

Tupp, yupp. I can relate a lot to what you describe except that you work a hell of a lot harder at solving your problems than I do. I tend to loll around defining and redefining and re-redefining them, none of which actually moves the needle.

Amber, thank you for this: "I am safe in the here and now." That's something I can say to myself when anxieties contribute to too much stasis. Another, I think, for me might be: "I am happy doing this." It could be the simplest thing, like completing my unpacking I left undone when I came home sick. Even cleaning up the kitchen.

When domestic mess piles up I give up and run away from it too easily.

Hops

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 02, 2019, 02:28:17 PM
Tupp, an afterthought:

I wonder what it would be like if you continued all your hard work toward a better life, but instead of being motivated by ANGER, you tried on experimenting with a motivation of PEACEFUL PROGRESS.

You might accomplish just as much, but with less cost to your well being?

I don't know, it just popped into my head.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 03, 2019, 11:52:19 AM
Aye-yie-yie... I know what you two are talking about. Where if ya don't start deconstructing the problem right away and looking for points where you can change it... you feel even worse. IMO, that's because of past roles parenting the parents; we put that pressure on ourselves to try to hold things (and people) together. And then that whole thing can spiral out of control. Emotionally; bio-neurologically and then physically.

What mindfulness is suggesting one do, isn't 1/2 hr of meditation so much as... giving yourself permission to "take care of yourself first". To take a time out; breathe yourself present in your body FIRST... allow yourself to remember "I'm safe in the here and now"... and really feel solid in that space before turning to look at the "problem" again. Some people can do that during activity, as well. Washing dishes works for me - especially putting dishes away in my small kitchen. I turn that into moving meditation, tai chi, dancing... whatever. Just to get "present" in my body. It kinda sets the tone for the day, for me.

I wish I could add to this, but I'm having trouble keeping it short and concise.  The mindfulness THING isn't a magical meditative state, IME. 

It's about taking back our hijacked biology, which shuts down parts of our brains WE NEED TO FINISH PROCESSING things that are stuck, engage in problem solving, and logical/creative frontal cortex access that is otherwise limited or shut down completely when we're experiencing stress.... old pathways just pop up, and take over
if
we
don't
mindfully
notice
what's
happening
in our internal worlds,
decide if we're on the right track to get more of what we want,
and correct course, choose new pathways, build them, and practice choosing them,m particularly when we're under stress, which is when the old pathways, lightening fast, come online before we can think about choice.

At that point, the mindfulness practice is what we use to gain control of our biology, so our brains can settle down, and provide access to integrated WHOLE brain processing that makes it possible to mindfully ponder what just happened, how it affects us and our lives, and whether or not we need to form new habits/pathways/ability to choose them..... to improve our quality of life.

Left to our default settings, our survival brain is content with SURVIVAL ONLY.  Survival brain cares nothing about quality of life, and the only way to get a hold on the way we process stress is to become aware of what we're thinking, look at it without ANY judgment, and SEE truthfully how those thoughts impact our lives... without judgment without judgment without judgment.... only curiosity, bc it IS interesting once we begin to notice. 

It's empowering.

It expands possibility to SEE what IS, bc there's so much more out there for us if we can ONLY SEE beyond our reactionary brain's default pathways that pop up before we're aware of them. 

This caveman reptilian brain kept us alive when we were chased by saber tooth tigers, but it's not as useful in this day and age.  We have the ability to notice it, decide if it's necessary in THIS moment, and calm it down if imminent danger isn't involved.

Calming down our survival brain isn't easy, and I should think that those of us who depended on fight, flight, fawn to survive in childhood have massive brain pathways that must be addressed, and overcome, vs those of us who don't have ongoing childhood trauma, and attachment issues, IME.

With that said, I've failed every attempt to meditate, without REAL direction and help from a professional trauma expert with her masters and stone cold focus that keeps me on track, and out of the woods..... ON TRACK. 

Tupp.... it's not going to be easy to untrain your very competent brain OUT OF DOING WHAT'S kept you alive all these years. It's going to be a bumpy, frustrating ride, but getting there will be revelation, and so worth it, IME.

It's just that.... trying to meditate when you don't have a good roadmap is so very difficult... impossible for me, I KNOW THIS. 

It's OK to KNOW that attempts failed you before.  It's also OK to consider there are tricks, and ways around the things that trip us up when first practicing.... things that get us around the roadblocks. 

One of the things is something that I dealt with too.... the negative reaction to the concept of meditation that FAILED me when I needed it most. 

They say... when the student is ready, the teacher appears.  I guess that's true in many respects.  It certainly has been FOR ME while facing codependence, and WORRY WORRY WORRY coping strategies that keep me locked in fight/flight/fawn mode...... and I SEE how that cycle works in my life when I can pay attention.

I see there can be something better.  I desire serenity, always have. 

I can bring more of that into my life, and MORE of what I want.... to feel at home in my skin, to BE enough without doubt, and to move with confidence toward things that are new, and exciting.... more of what I want, less of what hasn't been working for me.

OK, I can't say this in fewer words!

I find myself envious of Hop's ability to express complex concepts with poetic economy!  AGAIN.

I did try.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 03, 2019, 12:25:48 PM
Well, you just did.

Fight/flight/fawn

Brilliant.

Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 04, 2019, 10:21:21 AM
Thanks, Hops: )

Yesterday I spent hours enjoying my neighbor's company. I didn't fear feeling whonky around her.  I didn't spend time worrying about knee jerk people pleasing bahaviors, and it was a relief.

We tarped leaves from her yard INTO my front leaf island, which seems to get windswept and bald.... weeds grow... it looks uncared for, and unfinished.

It NOW has piles of leaves 3 feet high.....  I also tarped the culdesac leaves in.... and some of my side yard leaves too.  I took time to wet them down, and throw little sticks, of which I have SO MANY..... on top to sort of anchor them in place.  If I can't create a bed that stays in place, I don't know what I'll do next.

I cleaned out the dry creek bed, the drainage ditch, and the rock garden.... and one BIG pile of sticks I've been ignoring and adding to like I wouldn't have to eventually move it.... still one other pile of sticks and branches to move.  Aside from that, and the rest of the leaves falling.... the yard is completely caught up.

I'll blow the gutters and roof before removing the next layer of leaves.

I share the dry creek bed at the mailbox with my neighbor... half on their property, half on mine, so it felt nice to do that, AND blow their driveway.  They're very nice people, elderly, and struggling with illnesses that make working in the yard impossible at times.  I had to figure out where to blow the leaves, bc there's no good place over there.  Just too many leaves in some places, and not enough in others.  It's like a puzzle, but satisfying walking meditative work I don't mind doing. 

I have got to start marking out time to practice mindfulness on a regular basis.  It's difficult to stop what I'm doing, and just do it.   I used to work super hard out 6 or more hours a week without fail, so I can figure this out too. 

Lordy, I worked so hard in the yard this weekend.... my heart wanted to burst. 
And it felt good.  It makes me wonder why I don't have a regular work out in place, but that's on the list too.


Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on November 04, 2019, 10:42:45 AM
I'm really pleased you didn't feel wonky around the neighbour, Lighter, and that you got so much done!  My word, busy busy, it must do you the power of good to be outside doing that all day? xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 04, 2019, 02:08:23 PM
I find being out in nature is very helpful for my mental health, Tupp.

And YES!  Your discussion around noticing people-pleasing behaviors was on my radar when I went into the yard.  I didn't think about it once I was out the door, but I put it at the front of my mind before leaving the house, and just relaxed into NOT cringing, worrying, and FEELING uptight about what would come next. 

I remember feeling that way around neighbors twenty years ago... such nice people.  That they don't feel comfortable around codependent behaviors/people pleasing behaviors makes interaction uncomfortable... the SEE it, and I sense they SEE it, kwim?

Just understanding that, and not trying to resist it seemed to work pretty well.  I agreed with myself that I'd ask her how she'd DO things more often, and let her talk.... do what she was comfortable doing, and not try to DO everything myself, save her from unstable areas, bc she broke her neck not long ago, and I worry about her falling.  She's a big girl, and will do what she knows she can do, and I have to just relax into NOT worrying FOR her.   

Can it be so easy to STOP people-pleasing?  Think an interaction through ahead, decide on strategies, then get in there and have as much fun as you can?

I sure hope so: )

I'll tell you this.... conversation is much easier when I'm not filling every empty space, and yes... we got SO much done in the yard yesterday.   I'm astonished, and so pleased.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 07, 2019, 06:11:04 AM
One of the first things T taught me to do in her office was to return to my breath, cross my arms, and pat myself on the shoulders, left, right, left, right, and so on... like slowly patting a baby on the back, comforting them..... and I forgot about that one. 

In this case, we worked on the people-pleasing behaviors, and where they came from.  Once the emotions were present, we put the story on the shelf, crossed arms, began patting, and I thought of the most loving mother archetype, which for me wasn't a Saint, or Mother Theresa, but was someone I knew in real life. I pictured her face, and being in the room with her, the smells, the sights, seeing myself in her eyes, what exactly we were doing in that moment, and how exactly it FELT to be there.... visiting these things over and over, and it was super comforting.  It felt like being home, and seen, and welcomed... like being known, and invited, and loved.  It was powerful, and I always leave her office feeling such relief. 

T said that this work goes on for hours after it's put into the computer/brain.  The archetype represents our own perfect self.... we don't need the archetype to do the work.... we need to remember we're perfect as we are at our core, which is a Buddhist belief, and dropping the judgments, criticisms of others, and layers of negative core beliefs is the necessary healing thing leading to revealing our true selves... not healing ourselves, so to speak.  I'm paraphrasing here, of course. 

The conversation was animated, and exciting.... I'd bring up A, and she'd respond, explain how the brain handles and overcomes (when given the chance) then we'd go on to another point... we talked about freedom BEING inside us all.  Nelson Mandela, and Victor Frankl.  Nelson Mandela was angry the first 15 years of his 27 year imprisonment.  When he realized he had control over his internal world, and freedom he shifted his life, made friends and allies with some of his guards, who later became cabinet members when he was in power.

She also said that it's not difficult to DO the work.  It's how we judge it, and frame it for ourselves that creates the difficult emotions around it.  Some Ts say it's "difficult, painful, will take years....." and so on.   I've seen at least one T who said that to me.  This T thinks that's untrue, and referenced a T client she saw the day before we met.  This T had a huge painful complex PTSD issue she said she was just "so very tired of going over and over and over again....sick to death of it", just too tired to keep on trying. 

It's amazing when we turn the healing process around, and view it as a revelation, bc we can heal in a millisecond, rather than continue retraumatizing clients over and over again with talk therapy that doesn't help the brain finish processing, and filing the emotions in past files.  And we DO get so very tired of revisiting the stories, but the stories aren't where the healing IS.  The stories are just doors to access the emotions, and sensations that require processing.  The story isn't necessary for the processing to take place.  Being able to put a story on the shelf is a huge relief, IME.  Knowing I don't have to spend much time in a story is a relief.  It makes the idea of a T appointment more positive, and about feeling better... not feeling worse as I go.  The healing is in the emotions, the sensations, and nonjudgemental focus.  The healing is NOT in the retelling of the story. 

So, the T and her T client brought up the story for that client, put the story on the shelf, focused on the emotions, and sensations that came up, and practiced this cross shoulder patting, (there's a name for it I forget) and whatever that client needed in the moment.  T client experienced huge relief, just finished the emotion, and left the office with a complete energy shift, all emotions around that trauma processed, and filed into past experience files.  I've left there feeling so much better, I wondered if the negative emotions would return... but they didn't..not around that story, anyways. 

We were talking about childhood traumas CPTSD..... an actual trauma, and then the nodes.... say a child was abused by a neighbor as the original trauma, then the child remembers the mother, her mother's absence, and lack of protection as a node attached to the trauma, and there can be many nodes attached to one trauma, layered through the years, and complicated.

The brain CAN process the trauma, and nodes at the same time.... time isn't linear, as Newton believed..... it's all right here, in the now.  At this point, where our breath is.  Albert Einstein's idea of space and time being interwoven in a single continuum.....what he called space-time meant events that occur at the same time for one person, could occur at different times for another person. 

This is what I got yesterday.... the brain actually heals itself.... more than BEING healed by a T, or ourselves..... just as we heal our immune systems when we sleep, and our immune systems heal us when we sleep.  We're creating an environment, removing stress, and allowing our brains and bodies to do what they're programmed to do. 

 I wish I'd recorded every session, bc I can't take it all on board, and remember everything she says. 

So,again, for CPTSD there may be more layers of trauma and nodes, but it's interesting that not all traumas and nodes have to be visited individually to be healed.  Some will be healed at once, just as some traumas can be healed through generations, for everyone through our family tree.  We can DO THAT for them, and ourselves.

We do ourselves a disservice when we interpret T as something that must be slogged through, revisiting trauma stories over and over again, endured again and again.

We free ourselves to relief and freedom when we view T as easy.... as relieving stress, and providing opportunity for the brain, which we know precious little about, to heal itself. 

Negatives beliefs, fear, and stress don't help the brain finish processing. 

Peeling away the core negative beliefs helps in every way.  Many, if not most of us, have no idea what's beneath the fears, negative beliefs, emotions, sensations and reactivity.

Many of us never get to the point where we SEE ourselves beyond the reactivity.  Seeing the truth, without reactivity, is enlightenment.

::nodding::.

The session began with my noticing traffic snags didn't upset me, even though it meant I'd be late... and I like being early to consider myself on time typically.  I just didn't react... I responded without upset, and noticed that happened for me without effort. It was really good.

In session I noticed my frustration with particular concepts, and lack of work in certain directions that seemed overwhelming when I viewed them as not yet conquered.  How I often do work I see others would benefit from, rather than focusing strictly on the work that I benefit from as priority.

T spoke about the ego, and stories we tell ourselves being the problem.  Typically ego is involved when we feel frustrations come up, if we check ourselves.... ego's present.

Feeling upset and angry in traffic is seeing the trees.  Pulling back, seeing what;s going on for others, and self, is seeing the forest... not the trees.

The brain's pathways can be such that we react and SEE TREES, rather than gain perspective, emotional distance as a habit, and see the forest. 

We work on building pathways that provide the distance, and perspective as a matter of habit, and default settings..... responding rather than reacting.

When we see ourselves, our true born pristine selves for what we are, sans the negative judgments and stories of others.... we experience truth, and that truth is enlightenment too.

The journey continues.

Lighter







Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 07, 2019, 06:19:53 AM
I moved this post from Tupp's thread, so I can keep them together, and give her thread space for what she meant it to be: )  Also, I don't believe that older pathways are necessarily more difficult to change.... at least I don't want to believe they're more difficult.  I'd rather believe they're more complex, but just as easy to change.... 20 - 60 days of practice, and the brain's capable of making that change.


Re: Tuppp's 'On The Move' Thread :)
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2019, 01:01:16 PM »
QuoteModifyRemove
Hops:

Sometimes it FEEEEELS like the T is utilizing hypnosis with me.  I'm always trying to focus very hard when I'm working with her, so I can't really focus on that feeling that hypnosis is involved, but honestly....... I bet there are similarities, if not actual hypnosis techniques happening there.  I'll try to remember to ask her about that.

I KNOW KNOW KNOW that her intervention, explanations for how things work, and consistent kind herding down the correct path has made all the difference in my ability to make sense of, and utilize information around mindfulness, etc.

There were pieces missing, sure, but there was also a lack of understanding about the processes involved.  WHY they were necessary.  HOW they worked together, and in what order, and the biological responses involved, and exact information around the anatomy, and chemical responses, reversing them, and what systems and responses were responsible FOR THAT PIECE.

It's a lot of pieces, IME.  It's a lot to take on board, and remember while under stress, and in what order, and why.

Having someone calmly lead... which might be the definition of hypnosis for all I know, when our brains can't calmly lead for itself..... just calmly returning us back to the point where we can get on track, then leading us to the next point, and the next, bringing us back on track when we veer off, bc the brain DOES veer off when under stress.  It goes down old tracks that are WAY off the new pathway to where we can finish processing, and get beyond stuck points.

Find our inner child, struggling in this grown up world with tools that no longer serve, struggling, and clanging to be tended to.

And we can go to that child, when we're able, and reassure her, as you did..... and become the competent protective adult FOR OURSELVES.... parent that inner child, and FEEL our adult self step into control.. feel our inner child calm down, comforted and trust we CAN take care of her.  Yes.

That's a huge part of this..... I know it is.  Unhooking all those self defeating tapes installed by people who didn't know better, or wanted them installed..... doesn't matter.  The story doesn't matter, and that was such a relief for me too.

Not having to go INTO any story beyond noticing the emotions that come up.  Being able to put the story back on the shelf, and turn to the emotions solely.... just seems like a huge shortcut, and getting to the heart of the solution..... like INSTALLING problem solving software IN our brains, useful for resolving issue we've been revisiting, and trying to resolve in the present, BUT ALSO for problem solving going forward..... just a different category......
1.
HEALTHY BOUNDARIES   (Aware, and working on them, check)

2.
Ability to notice internal world, and drop all judgment around what we find.

3.
Ability to notice when we've shifted into survival mode, then access our new tools.....
PUT THE STORY ON THE SHELF....(staying with it keeps us off trackIME)...
remember mindfulness tools...
breathe from the bottom of the vase up, fill it, slowly breathe out....
find the emotions attached to the stress...
put our hands on it...
name it..... give it a number from 1-10 for intensity....
return to breathe, find nonjudgmental focus on our surroundings,
notice colors, sights and sounds.... our peripheral space... all the space around us, between us and the sun..... the space in a molecule.... so much spaciousness around us... breathing it IN, INTO  the stress/pain/tension, and expanding that space until the tension and pain have gone, or feels much improved.

And when I can't DO that, I find I'm so out of sorts I can't remember to push on walls, or walk backwards or practice EMDR either, bc... like Tupp and Amber were saying.... my brain is SO FOCUSED ON trying to solve the problem through focus, even though I have zero access to problem solving brain, I just can't make the leap, and STOP WORRY WORRY WORRY mode.... to get myself into a better space.

Knowing this, having experienced it and moved beyond it in recent weeks gives me the ability to SEE exactly how my brain gets stuck, and how difficult it is to shift OUT of fight or flight, especially when I still have to build the new pathways so I can practice using them, and build them up strong, and fast, and as likely to be chosen as the fight or flight pathways.

It's difficult to practice all this at once,  and I see how it gets easier with familiarity, and practice, and at some point the new pathways WILL BE INSTALLED, and no longer an empty space where I SEE what needs to go there.... kwim?

Having too much choice just makes it harder.  Not knowing what to replace the old pathways with is stressful IN ITSELF, IME.

Once the new responses, and skills are decided, THEN the real work begins of practicing, of remembering we have choice, and remembering how to get back to the place where we can shift OFF reactivity path, and onto response pathway.... new pathway..... back into parasympathetic mode that makes choice possible.


Becoming mindful means we NOTICE what we're thinking, are aware WHY we're thinking it, able to choose other responses, or to continue with the one we're experiencing..... it's not magic.  It's not a slight of hand, secret squirrel handshape membership.... it's an understanding how the brain works, gets hijacked, takes over our biology, and can be reversed with breathing, and nonjudmental focus.

All the steps.... all the new information.... all the old reactions that need to be noticed, and addressed, and acted on, or not.  It's a lot to take on board, as I said, and no one practices this perfectly, not even Monks.

So, Tupp.... as you move through the process.... you should be uber super proud of yourself for having the ability to break free of the old pathways, BECOMING AWARE OF THEM is huge..... bc you have to be aware of them, without judgment, not be afraid of them..... just notice them... welcome them, and thank them for their service.... they did their job, but now the danger's passed.  You don't have to be in survival mode any more.

You can discover ways to calm survival brain down, breathing calmly TELLS THE BRAIN THERE IS NO CRISIS.... the brain has to respond to that command, even if you DO DO DO PUSH PUSH PUSH on a wall to get survival brain to a point where it can respond to the breath's command....
"THERE IS NO CRISIS HERE, NOW..... I have arrived.... I am home.....I am safe."

Survival brain will eventually understand, and fall in line.  You'll figure out how to wean yourself off the old reactive pathways.... not easy to do.  Not quickly done, but with consistent mindful nonjudgmental attention....
tending to those anxious painful stressed places in our brains (that have been asking for attention all these years.)
Finally giving and receiving that attention......
maybe it is a sort of magic.  That it can be SO simple, to tend to our emotions and thoughts,
like a garden.
 

Like our children.

And Tupp... you have wounds, and thick pathways that have protected you for so long... all your life, perhaps.... it's THAT part is something that has to be overcome for everyone, but I think is more difficult the more difficult the stories... the longer the stories have been playing out, building fight or flight pathways thicker, faster,super consistent.....
it just makes sense that dismantling those pathways will take a bit more time to figure them out, come up with better choices, develop the skills to NOTICE when they've taken over, come up, from beneath them, and unhook the alarm bells clanging in your mind and body... for real CLANGING and hijacking your chemisty.

THIS will take some time to overcome, Tupp... will require a bit more work...... and I know you're the hardest working person I've ever in my life known, for surely you are devoted, and competent, and never veering from your mission.

Just an amazing Amazon Warrior, of the highest order, with battles under your belt., enough to last a lifetime..... truly.  You have stood up, dismantled a sabatage machine created by the people who were supposed to protect and LOVE YOU....
  I am in awe of your strength, and intestinal fortitude.... something I learned in martial arts, so important..... how very strong we can be, and disciplined....
you are those things.

The truth is....
when I think about how much you've overcome, and where you are in your journey, I'm shocked at how well you're doing.  Your resilience is something you were born with, I think, and I'm sometimes overwhelmed by the idea of what you COULD DO FOR YOURSELF, build for yourself IF YOU HAD ACCESS to all your powers and abilities....  if these old emotions and traumas weren't clanging away, asking for attention..... what you'd build if you could use all your strength.... bring it to bear in the present..... to serve you in your present day life, without distraction, and hauntings... hijackings, and old tapes playing, unbidden, but installed, and strong, and IN YOUR DEFAULT SETTINGS.

I know you're stronger than I am.  I know you're a giant, and capable of things I could never achieve... your executive function skills are good, even with all the static, and stories and hauntings from your past.... some of them still walking and breathing, and pressing in around you, purposefully..... unpunished for crimes against you.... the lack of justice a truth branded on your very soul..... and so unfair.  So difficult to make peace with,  but keeping you IN THAT STORY, mired, and stuck, when you deserve to put it to rest, and leave it where it was meant to be.... in the past.  Behind you.  Not forgotten, but finished, and done.  Put away.

And that's what mindfulness is about, IME.

That's where breathing fits in, and how we get to the point we CAN BREATHE when we're too off track to DO IT..... how we get to a place where we can handle the emotions, and hijacking of our biology..... familiarize ourselves with the steps, and processes, internalize them, install new pathways, and USE THEM till they're stronger, thicker, and faster than the old survival pathways.....
and that's more about daily practice... utilizing the new pathways when we're calm... when we're at ease.... just flexing those pathway muscles, and giving them energy, and moving fat from old pathways to the new pathways....

It really feels like we're installing new software, and retiring old software.  All new systems are difficult to learn, and master, IME.

THIS is a worthwhile brain system updated, Tupp.... IME.

THIS is something we practice, and simple practice rubs off on the ones we love, and we model it for them....... they learn by watching us, and feeling our energy change, and noticing how we're impacted by that practice.

Even the little changes, for me, in the beginning, have enriched my relationships with my daughters.

I have better boundaries, less need, more seeking out lovely connections I WANT MORE OF, bc I'm aware of what IS HERE.... and aware of how it affects me, and the girls, and our lives.

I can see what isn't serving me, and what I don't want... as you've said so many times, Tupp.   You are a giant, and honestly..... I think you're capable of being a leader, or a healer, or a teacher or all those things..... someone who can make change and impact systems, or focus on beautiful things that bring you and others joy.

It's up to you.

I think becoming aware of all the self imposed limitations we set for ourselves... how we see the world, and behave in it is something you're doing quite on your own.... AMAZING.

And I so wish for you to have less negativity around this new brain software, and the processes involved... bc it's slowing down what is an amazing journey I'm honored to be a part of, and to witness.

I know you have limitations in your life, Tupp.  I understand the time, and financial limitations are there, but can never truly understand exactly how difficult it is.  I'm not sure how well I'd fare under similar circumstances... with my skill set.  I don't.

What I do know is the time you give to worrying about other people, and people pleasing, and caring about others, more than yourself.... I KNOW THAT shifting that time and energy INTO your own program, your own care, your own journey could and likely will be a revelation in your life.

You've posted about the codependence struggle, and I'm right there with you.... about to go into the yard, and face my lovely neighbor, who I relentlessly people please without restraint it seems.... and I'm going to think about my own struggle with it.  Puzzle it out, and FOCUS on it without judgement..... to make that change, and free up that storage space in my brainpan!

I'll bring it up with my T next week, bc it's so vexing for me.  It makes me feel like I have no control over it, and I've also noticed how uncomfortable I am around people when I'm not in a position to be helpful.

It's a thing.

::nodding::

The journey continues: )

Lighter



Modify message
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on November 07, 2019, 07:31:11 AM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

What Lighter coined as "non-judgemental awareness", is called (in my lexicon) letting right-brain zoom out to see the bigger picture; the context that things are happening in; the landscape in which we find ourselves - having that emotional reaction or bio-neuro hijacking. If, when one becomes aware that tension, panic, the sense of being threatened or examined under a microscope occurs... IF one can remember to mentally step away and look at that bigger picture, instead of that one close-up detail... then, ye olde left-brain linear problem solver, gains a lot more data and is shifted back into it's proper role in the system of intentional autonomy.

I don't know if those words make any sense; they are different than Lighter's; but I think we're talking about the same thing; the same process.

I haven't exactly mastered this; not by a long shot. And one of the biggest challenges is when I'm in a situation with lots of people. "Lots" being defined as more than 1-2 people at once. I tend to turn off my own thoughts and volition and let myself just be open to others - and the subtle, sometimes subconscious, content of what they're saying/doing. But that's not helpful, because I am also very audially and visually aware of details flitting by, all around me. So, sensory overload, usually flattens me like a steamroller.

I am struggling with this a lot these days, because now I'm actually living day to day with people around me. (I still maintain I'm not cut out for communal living and this experience pretty much proves that.) I don't process a lot of verbal things as fast as other people either; not unless I already have a vulcan mind-meld connection with them and then the issue of patterns; inter-relational patterns and assumptions come into play making things even more tangled up.

My error in this current situation, is that I'm TOO respectful of other people's boundaries and not defensive enough of my own. That led to a complete lack of communication about some basic ground rules, agreements, and mutually accepted understandings. For good measure, throw in people's various relational tensions or activities, and their emotional auras... and Amber is looking to hide in her cave and lock the damn door!

Just to be able to hear myself think. And feel. It's as if I'm completely absorbed into the things going on around me and disappear as a unique human being. Because of trying to keep up and stay on top of all that data that my brain is racing to process. It's always worse, when I feel people are expecting something from me and I'm not even able to feel "me"... because I'm trying to withstand or surf the torrent of THEM, coming at me. Like I don't have a corporeal body; taking up physical space.

Therefore, I find myself feeling as I don't exist. And THAT, starts the cycle all over again at a more critical point on the spiral.

[Please understand, that all the "bad" things people do to each other: gaslighting, criticism, taking advantage, making fun of... etc is all swirled into this mess too. That's another sub-routine that runs; trying to sort that out along with motivation, if any.]

The contrast is especially stark for me right now because I've had 12 hours totally to myself. Steve came home last night, late. And he's quiet and doesn't impose himself on people or situations and is pretty self-sufficient... except he's completely totally unaware of his habits and how they impact other people. So we CAN co-exist, but I'm still excruciatingly aware that I am making the effort here and he's unavailable to make any requests of. There is something that MUST be done prior to the plumbers showing up this morning; and it's unknown when that might be. And he wasn't taking responsibility for his own stuff; so I have to. Holly usually does. She's gone to the beach with her friend John & the dogs.

She needed a break too.

Y'all can see how this is all related to the topic at hand. And I'm trying to circle my digression back. I'm pondering if it's simply a matter of seeing my own comfort and needs as being EQUAL to; what I permit and allow and create for other people. That, it goes back to my old mantra: there's always time to take care of myself FIRST.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 07, 2019, 02:13:52 PM
Really smart takeaway here, Amber. Bravo!

Quote
I'm TOO respectful of other people's boundaries and not defensive enough of my own. That led to a complete lack of communication about some basic ground rules, agreements, and mutually accepted understandings.

It occurred to me that you are also eloquently describing what a whole lot of introverts go through.

Taking care of ME can also include simple respect for your own nature, your own wiring.
Nothing whatsoever wrong with recognizing that if you DON'T respect your own nature, you'll get flooded.

Then you can abandon the all-tracking, all-assimilating, all-aware, all-capable-of-absorbing-whatever-stimulus-environment-is-happening, all the time...stance. Because it's not pragmatic to do that. It's actually not being fair to yourself (which is more important than being in control).

Much better to be less in control of the incoming, and more in control of the outgoing: simple assertive boundary-setting. Clear speech. Straightforward "I" statements about rules/understandings/expectations/requirements. (One thing I learned in an assertiveness course is that, particularly when it's a new pattern, it often requires calmly repeating the same boundary until the other person takes it in. Two times or ten, the tone can remain just as calm and straightforward. Most people will eventually get it. Hol may take longer, if you haven't dealt with her this way for a long, consistent time. But she can get it too.)

Having to do all that doesn't make you a hostile host (or parent). Just a mature and self-aware one. It's okay to claim whatever space/air/silence/simplicity you moved to the mountain to be able to claim in the first place!

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 07, 2019, 02:22:01 PM
Lighter, I really like this:

Quote
our intuition can work all this out, and help us sidestep the old struggles.  It just has to stand up to the old hope.... and require we honor the intuition more than we honor the desire to resolve the old struggle

And especially,
Quote
we don't have to repeat to resolve.

Amber, I think it can be both neural pathways AND the "click" into a familiar recycling-to-resolve. (I lot track of where you posted that but wanted to say it ain't either/or, but both/and....)

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 07, 2019, 03:56:58 PM
No, Amber, not referring to left-right hemispheres in this case. 

It's more bottom to top, top to bottom thing.

The 6 layered neocortex (most advanced and evolutionarily young part of human brains), is present in mammals, and derived from the 3 layer cortex found in all modern reptiles..... what we think of as lower brain/survival brain. 

Reptiles don't have a neocortex, and that's why we refer to the cortex as a "reptilian brain".... our fight/flight/fawn mode, survival brain, etc. 

The neocortex is especially prominent in humans, and is where higher-level functioning and cognitive ability are located... our higher brain evolved over time, and was formed around the lower brain....T refers to this as top-down thinking when we have access to our neocortex.

Lower reptilian brain is lightening fast, and responsible for survival.  The amygdala is responsible for determining if danger or crisis is present... this happens in 50 milliseconds...  I think.  Thoughts take 500 miliseconds to process... I'm pretty sure, so we can't possibly catch the amygdala BEFORE we get hijacked by fear, old reactive patterns, etc.  This is bc the amygdala reacts to save our lives... like TIGERRUNFASTANDFARNOW!  You know when you jump 3 feet off the trail when you think you see a stick that looks a bit like a snake?  That's the amygdala in action.

Thinking brain... our neocortex higher brain might wonder if we SEE stripes in the jungle, or if that's really a rattle snake about to strike us in the face,  kwim?   That's why the amygdala is so fast, and why it shuts down pathways to the neocortex... just BAM!  Shut down, and done before we have a moment to process anything about stripes or snake shapes, or a piece of moss that looks like a big spider perched on one's forearm,  kwim?  There are times I can't work in the yard bc I THOUGHT a spider or centipede or snake was ON ME, and then I get more and more jumpy till all joy is gone, so I give up for a while. 

We need access to our neocortex logical problem solving skills and creativity to figure out what's truth, and what's not when faced with crisis vs perceived crisis in the brain.

BC reptilian brain doens't have access to those higher functions, we have to engage the Parasympathetic Nervous System (PNS).  PSN shuts down our Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS).... fight or flight response.  It restores pathways to our neocortex. 

Left Right activities like walking, patting our shoulders left right left right,  softly, as in soothing a baby..... EMDR (quick movement of hand in front of eyes...)  engages left right brain hemisphere through the corpus callosum, strengthening brain integration.  Improved brain integration makes it easier to relieve the pressure on the part of the brain that's been activated with memories of old trauma/fear/danger.... the emotions and sensations around that old trauma feel very REAL, despite the fact we're no longer IN REAL DANGER.  Any relief of stress, and ability to engage access to other parts of the brain is helpful to allow the brain to finish processing, which it is very good at when given the chance. 

::uncrossing eyes::.  That looks so confusing to read.  Sorry.

Everyone has different ways of soothing, and calming themselves.  I'm learning different ways to sneak up UNDERNEATH the alarm bells, and unhook them with mindful breathing, nonjudgmental focused attention, or physical actions that help me use those things if I'm too upset in the moment to focus at all.  I haven't been able to understand all the pieces of information I've learned up to meeting this T.   She's explained things so I can make sense of the bits and pieces, and actually utilize them.  It makes sense to me.   

Not judging the fight or flight reactivity response as negative helps me calm myself more easily, or stops escalation that might otherwise take place,  making it more difficult to calm myself.   


Lighter

 

 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on November 08, 2019, 08:56:20 AM
Dang words... LOL... they're so - dry & dead & incomplete - trying to talk about sensory or neural experiences. I tend to oversimplify/overgeneralize because it seems so impossible to me to find the right words to convey what I really MEAN. (hence, pictures for me to express things)

I hear what you're saying Light; understand. I don't disagree. In fact that paragraph you thought looked confusing, made a LOT of sense to me. You're able to describe in specific detail - which is appreciated! - what I've reduced to symbolic code for myself. My "shorthand".

I do know, how it FEELS to do both things. Like balancing a bike through curves or taking a jump with it... (PSN vs SN)... so I definitely feel those experiences in my body. And just do them. Noting the difference in how they feel. Even though it's often on "auto-pilot".

It's just fascinating me, how we can all experience and talk about the same thing - while perceiving it different ways and processing it differently too. That's pretty danged cool.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 08, 2019, 02:56:18 PM
An aside, but maybe it's "directer" than I think:

I think that a whoooole lot of things we can struggle with, such as:

--not asserting ourselves peacefully
--allowing boundary invasions
--not communicating clearly expectations/requirements
--enduring/tolerating hostile, destructive, or inappropriate behavior

...can come down to something waaaaay deep inside, which is that we just want so badly to be certain that we are GOOD. Cerebrally, we know we are. But way down in there's a default shame-setting that I think affects us for a very long time, after certain kinds of childhoods.

So when others have needs, emotions, problems...we need so badly to know that we are GOOD, that we forget on the spot all this stuff: 

--asserting ourselves peacefully
--not permitting boundary invasions
--communicating clearly our expectations/requirements
--not tolerating hostile, destructive, or inappropriate behavior

I think we all need to know that we ARE good. We're not faking it. Even if we've sometimes done bad, we ARE good at the core. Daily loving self-acceptance....

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on November 08, 2019, 05:20:16 PM
I appreciate your responses above Lighter. I'm going to read & re-read a couple of times. Ponder & seek within.

We ARE different people; and we've both experienced different kinds of things - even if there are some basics in common. And I'm happy to talk about things from your understanding, and then review my own... and see where we're saying the same things - and where we can maybe switch on a light bulb for each other. Maybe there's some overlap; some things distinctly different; and maybe we'll both see something new, too.

Saying more now, would be premature I think. Need to do "my thing" with my statements versus your questions and feedback... and see if something jumps out and says: HEY YOU, over here! I got yer answers over here, lady...

LOL.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 09, 2019, 10:38:37 AM
Hi Hops:

Thank you for that very simple, and helpful post.  It was timely, and so appreciated. 

Amber:  I'm spinning from unexpected, very scary news... late father's caretaker's 12yo grandson was dx'd with childhood leukemia yesterday morning.  He's in ICU at Scottish Rite, which is an hour and a half from where they live. 

I was spinning around that whole situation when I posted to you. No need to reply.

Update:

Late father's caretaker/the Grandma in this, is remaining in the US instead of leaving for 3 months on a planned trip.  I was gobsmacked by her plan to continue forward, under the circumstances.  I didn't know what it meant.

They have a formal dx of Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia, which they're told can be cured.  He'll be in the hospital for 21 days for treatments, then released for ongoing periodic treatments. 

I'm so happy this is the best possible prognosis they could receive.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on November 09, 2019, 12:10:21 PM
I'm sorry to hear that Lighter; is there something you can do in that situation beyond just being there to comfort and support? Sending light & hope that all will be well in the outcome.

(I was coming back to re-read that post... kinda disappointed it's gone... but I understand. No worries.)
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 09, 2019, 12:41:00 PM
Amber:

We're making and packing food to take to the farm, and brother's house.  Just waiting to see who's staying where. 

There's 8 hours of driving involved, so have to plan this out. 

Our Asian market carries 50lb bags of rice, and sauces from their Country of Origin they can't get where they live.  Will load the truck up, and take that off their plates.

Will get some gift cards for groceries, and send with a note. 

I associate food and feeding people/being fed with care and support. 

My sister and I spent a lot of time trying to stay positive, send good thoughts, and not catastrophize yesterday with inconsistent results.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on November 09, 2019, 01:50:41 PM
Food is absolutely one of the best things for comfort and helping out Lighter. Traditional "southern" response, too.

When my friend was having horrendous stress at work, caring for her elderly mom, and awful menopausal/hormone issues... I ante'd up a couple months worth of some of those "meals by mail" per week. It took the shopping, planning, and just deciding what to eat - off her plate, so to speak. She kept up with it too, until the situation changed and they regrouped at home, to manage things on their own again. She figured the cost worked out about an even trade-off, when you figured in all the driving/time involved in getting things pulled together to cook.

And they got to try some new recipes, too.

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 09, 2019, 03:09:10 PM
Lighter,
I'm so sorry your late Dad's caretaker's grandson has this diagnosis.

Forgive this if it's over-analytical. But fwiw, in case it's a helpful clue to some awareness or other...

I get sorrow. Heart pang. Concern. Love and help (yours sounds perfect).
I don't quite get "fear".

I found myself musing...are you feeling terror that isn't yours actually, that may come from hypervigilant years?

IOW, sad FOR ANOTHER is compassion. Fear FOR ANOTHER might be...something from somewhere else?

Fear, when someone you are directly intimately related to is sick, makes sense. But this child isn't that direct relation unless I'm wrong (because we adopt many non-related folks into our Phamilies, I know).

I am only asking about the fear ("very scary") piece. In hopes that your care and love and compassion will be where your response to this situation dwells. Not fear.

You don't need a new fear source. This child will be loved and cared for. Then what will be will be.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 11, 2019, 09:45:59 AM
https://contextualscience.org/the_six_core_processes_of_act

I was talking about the shoulder patting technique the other day.  I'm pretty sure T used the word ACT.  Above is information about that.

I also attached a site with information with all the things I've been bringing up woven through.  It's explaining a program they're inviting people to join, but people are welcome to sign up for the free broadcast.  If they join they're able to get transcrips and access to the program any time.

https://www.nicabm.com/program/compassion-1/?del=11.11.19MondayAnnouncetoUnreg

There's an informative video on this link ABOUT the program, which helps pull together different things I've been touching on.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 14, 2019, 09:24:03 AM
OK, T went straight into ACT memory reconsolidation session yesterday. 

There are two things she loves.... for herself, and for clients....

1) Moving through the ACT EMDR memory reconsolidation with client/T in session.

2) Desensitization the client can perform with a strict focus on emotions and sensations... giving them a number from 1-10, then doing 10 quick back and forth passes 10 times.  Check the 1-10 number.  If it's the same 2 or 3 times, quit.  If it continues getting better, continue until it's zero.

She's sending me a link.... I think it's the Nova Reconsolidation Memory Hackers info.

So, I feel really good about the session.  Memories apparently change every time we pull them up.  We brought up a painful memory, and did EMDR on it.  We went on for maybe.... 45 minutes total....  bringing up the memory...... EMDR.... then I could begin changing the memory.... the picture in my mind..... changing it to something pleasing... an outcome I wanted.... more EMDR.... then I went from the beginning of the picture... I chose very early childhood through the moment, then added another, and another..... changing them.... for me it was entering these events as an adult.  Helping my mother parent.... attending to my siblings, and myself while Mom did what she was doing as a very young parent.... things that were normal for her, but allowing us, her children to travel through normal childhood phases without being punished for Mom's lack of supervision, and ignorance of normal childhood phases.

We paired the old memory with the new memory... back and forth, back and forth.

We traveled through the entire story with the new pictures.... to the end.

Finally, we traveled through my entire life bringing up every sad/painful/difficult emotion I could recall.... more EMDR.

I can't remember the exact order, but we also colored over the old images with a color of my choice, green, and when she moved her hand, I pictured it covering over the old image until it was filled in.  THEN we replaced it with the new image.

I was to let it sit, and not think about it too much, bc the memory does change. The work we did needed to just be.   No thinking about what we replaced.

All through this process T continued checking in with somatic experience.... where, what did it feel like, put a number on it.....

closer to the end she shifted to focus on the ease in my body, where... what it felt like.....and focusing on that.   The comfort eased into the more tense painful areas still under pressure at that point.  The pain/tension was stomach, chest, throat, jaw, and head when we began.  At the end the bodily sensations were at an zero: )

I was happy with that session.  At one point I couldn't bring up the most disturbing image when asked to. It was just sketchy, and eluded me, where at first it felt huge, popped right up and brought big emotions with it. 

If I think about it nom, there's no emotional response at all.  It's like that memory has been overlayed with a postive happy experience, and changed... hopefully, and I believe... forever.

I'll research the science behind it, bc that's what I do.

I wish I'd made notes yesterday, but I was just too busy.

Lighter



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 19, 2019, 11:43:15 AM
I have 2 paperwork things to tackle.... maybe 3, but I'm trying to notice the anxiety, and deal with it as it comes up without ramping up the fear.

WIll see how that goes.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on November 27, 2019, 03:39:14 AM
Are you finding the new memory stays with you, Lighter, or do you find that the original memory works its way back in?  It's such a lot of work you're doing at the moment, are you finding it tiring or does it perk you up?  How did you get on with the paperwork?  Just that word is so loaded now, lol, I can see myself ending up living in a cabin with no post box and no email so that paperwork can never find its way to me again.  Lol.  I hope the sessions are carrying on well, they seem to be helping you a lot xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 27, 2019, 09:20:16 AM
The memory hasn't changed.... that is to say... the new installed memory is the default setting that pops up when I think about it. 

The old memory isn't in the files, or so it seems.  When I try to recall it, it's like.... I SEE a flash of it, then it automatically changes... like an old slide projector.... to the new memory.   

I don't know if it will stay that way, but I BELIEVE it will.  The T asked me to put a percentage on my belief around that, and I was amazed to find my answer was unreservedly 100%.

I left everything be, and didn't revisit those memories right away, as instructed. 

So....memory reconsolidation.

::nodding::.

I'm heading out the door for another session of just that thing. Different year, same kids, I assume the same changed story..... I didn't think about what I'd LIKE the real memory to be.  The answer washed over me, and appeared, and it was good.

See you later; )

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 27, 2019, 02:50:59 PM
It all sounds like such a powerful system for processing trauma, Lighter.
I'm so very glad you found it.

Adding another thing to the list of what to be grateful about! I'm glad for you.

Hang in, and Happy Thanksgiving!

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 28, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Hops: )

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 06, 2019, 02:46:38 PM
::munching blueberries the size of grapes::

They're really good.  Most are tart and sweet, just the way I like them.  I don't like bland ones, and the occasional moldy one doesn't upset me.  The discomfort, if there's any discomfort now... and there is.... is more about MY eating something I bought for the girls. 

Usually I don't eat fresh fruit in the fridge.   If the girls don't eat it, then it typically dies, or I've frozen it for smoothies, or as little blueberry popsicles,  which youngest dd likes.   I've felt that way about food for years.... eating what they left, not preparing a plate for myself, bc money was scary, and anxiety always kills my appetite anyways. 

It's concerning,  but I'm managing to stay in observer mode.  Mostly.

SO... yesterday with T we explored feeling worthy enough, and that lead to an hour long dash down one triggered rabbit hole after another.

I'm not over the legals, I have more hard feelings for third party bystanders and enablers than I do toward my ASPD N husband as my expectations for him came into focus pretty quickly.  Not so with the systems, law officers, and people who should do the right thing, but have so often fallen down, failed, done the wrong thing or just a little favor for a buddy(Judge in the case I'm thinking about THIS SECOND), then thrown the case into a baby judge's lap so he didn't have to look at what he'd done, or deal with it.  Maybe putting faces in the room where he threw a stink bomb (fig.) just isn't pleasant, but WTH has to happen when people without standing to BRING a case get to file an Appeal, and win it, on the case that was thrown out?  That makes my eyes cross, and there are years of this kind of sabotage and heinous fuckery I'll have to finish processing, and put behind me.

So, we did an excercise where I talked about a time I felt empowered, what was I wearing (favorite boots), what color comes up around that (black) how it felt to BE in that space.... I felt in control, remembered the click of my heels, and the purpose in my strides.... always very physical.... I felt that power in my hips.

Then we shifted to a time I felt vulnerable, and at the mercy of.  That color was gray... it was dark, and lonely, and I could picture a grey sky framed by leafless black trees.... but gray was the color not feeling worthy. 

We put the black in one hand and the gray in the other, T mirroring me, and held them like little balls about a foot apart.  The right hand, holding the black... tingled like crazy. The left hand felt lighter.  Now, we're sensing how each hand feels... the brain processes in symbols and finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time, and will make sense of them.  I won't bore you with it all,  but we moved the hands closer together, and talked about how that felt, and what I saw when I pictured the gray... then pictured the black.  What were the changes, etc. 

When we eventually merged hands my fingers experienced an electrical shock so intense I was surprised there wasn't any noise associated with it.  A few fingers actually hurt.  We explored the black and feeling empowered, then examined the gray and back and forth... not sure exactly how that went, bc I was trying to FINISH it.  Sometimes I go in thinking I'll really pay attention and try to remember what happened, but it never goes that way, bc I can't do both, and I'm there to process as priority.

I was feeling OK when the hour was up, but then.... I wasn't.  T used EMDR.  I focused on the somatic sensations, which were all neutral... shocking considering the emotional upset, but in these cases I focus on the feelings of neutrality while doing the EMDR.  it was really difficult to follow her fingers with my eyes for some reason.  Sometimes my tongue wants to help out, but not this time.   It was just so darned hard... like my vision wanted to stop on her face.  VERY hard to think about bodily sensations and follow the fingers.  Each time she stopped and checked in... I felt better.  This is called desensitizing, and I can do it on my own.

There was another pass or two with focus on anything that felt pleasant in the body,and I have to say... .just feeling neutral was a very pleasant feeling for me. 

Tupp.... it's nice to put the story on the shelf, then do really important work by focusing ONLY on the somatic sensations.  I think it takes the retraumatizing factor down to a footnote very quickly, then helps to process the source trauma, but that's what happened last week, and I'll post about that on it's own.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 06, 2019, 03:51:55 PM
Fork.  I can't find my notes on last week's T session, but will put down what I remember.

This was the second time we processed a particlary triggering story, and I notice I'll just blather on and on if the T doesn't stop me pretty quickly.... put the story on the shelf then move on to what we're there to do. 

I AM RIGHT THERE, in that moment, unable to distinguish between then and the present.... I am engaged fully, as I was in those moments.  She sees that, and cuts it right off.  We focus on the sensations, we do some EMDR, we check in and note any changes, then dive back into the sensations.

At a point we bring up the event, and I think about it from beginning to end while doing EMDR.  Check in with how I'm feeling, focus on that and do more EMDR. 

It's like we bring up the distress, then calm it down, bring it up, calm it down, and so on.  Put numbers on it.  In this case I had a very sharp stabbing pain in my back, left side which is associate with being chakras, and being betrayed in a nutshell.  Made sense to me.

Next we go through the story and loop it from beginning to end more than once while doing EMDR, then check in on feelings, and address them witih EMDR.

I'm not sure what happens next, so will jot down approximates....
Bring up someone INTO the scenario we look up to, trust, feel protected by and advocated by.... I chose myself, again, grown, calm, and helping everyone in the scene, which was intuitive for me.

I went through the story as I wished it had happened, and that went pretty quick, compared to the other stuff.  I noticed the original story was getting more difficult to bring into focus, when I tried, and was just not coming up for me when I tried to picture it as we went along.

Then it was time to put everything in to a box from the original story, or from a set of years, or an entire lifetime, or just an entire childhood, and I chose all the upsetting incidents I could recall, put them in the box, and chose total destruction through burning.

I built the fire in my firepit, and there were family membersd... everyone close, all deceased, and my siblings when they were younger, and our grandparents and parents comforted sibs and my younger self while I burned the entire  box to ashes.  Mom served food from a picnic basket.... children napped.... everyone sat in the old time yard chairs from my Paternal grandparent's yard. 

When the deed was done, I think we got up, and headed toward a bridge to our new lives.  At the bridges edge we stopped to empty our pockets of everything from the past that needed to be left behind.  I just had us take off all our clothes, and walk across the bridge in white cotton shifts, shorts and tee shirts. 

When we got there we explored how that felt, then pictured a fountain.

Babies played in the spray, and grandparents sat on the edge, or in chairs by the side, and I dived in, and twirled, and did backflips in the water over and over... just all in, immersed, and refreshed.

I didn't think about the original story, bc in memory reconsolidation you want to let the new story continue processing as is.  Every time we bring up a picture or story it's changed.  Never static.  It was easy to leave it alone, as it was the first time we did this for a different story..... I'd say I was 4 yo for the first one, and 11yo for the second story.

Those two stories were traced back from current trigger stories, and we worked on them until there was zero emotional charge involved with any aspect of the original story or the present-day triggers we started with.

It's easier to lean into the discomfort of this work when I know and trust it leads to processing the story, and into a serene place of relief, and gratitude it's done.  I believe it will last, and so far so good... it's 100% remained in place.  Old stories gone. 

New stories in place... I experience so much relief where there was a lot of pain, tough emotions, and painful bodily sensations.  Like a thousand pounds lifted.  I don't care what the pounds were, or where they went, though I visualize them as
engaging unprocessed emotions in the amygdala....
the T assists with brain integration, helping to bring other parts of the brain online to support the amygdala, relieve tension around the story and in the brain, and make it possible to move that story into the processing center, then present it again and again to be processed until the brain has calmed enough to complete processing and file it into historic files in just the way I would have had that story go IF I HAD CONTROL OVER THE SITUATION. 

I can't tell you how satisfying it is to EXPERIENCE that outcome, and process.... just the details that come out of my mouth when asked how I'd rather have had that experience go.... I'm always shocked by the details and direction, and those things come without having to think, typically, or with very little reflection.  It feels like just the right answers were always there, waiting.

This is a pretty close approximating, and I didn't remember the fire, or the bridge, or the fountain from the first time we completed this process.  It felt like we were doing this for the first time. 

Shiftring into fight or flight mode feels a lot like being blindfolded and gagged.... sat on..... forced into a corner.....  unable to move or shift out of that space, and it's EVERYTHING.....
I just didn't have the ability to remember those parts of the process when we completed the experience the first time.

I must not have had access to the parts of my brain that create new memories while I was IN that place..... and this time.... that I can remember more.... for me means I've calmed my brain enough to have some restored access during times of intense stress.... of reducing the stress, and it's hoped every time we get through this, along with consistent practice to fire and wire new neural pathways... I'll achieve more resilience, finish processing the unprocessed triggers from most to least powerful,  until I'm able to regulate my emotions consistently as default setting.  If not, I'll know how to calm myself and move into a place where I can regulate my emotions.

Sometimes when we do check ins at the end of a session, something will come up... 2 sessions ago it was a T who harmed me and my children... the court appointed T who terrorized us an entire summer, and made my children fearl they'd be taken from me and given to their paternal grandparents in 2013.... THAT woman, the thought of her... that she made my youngest feel responsible for that terror....  is still in place, and T said it's my own self judgment that's behind that, which shut me up, and made me think. 

Just shutting down the cycle is an amazing thing.  Bringing my attention to it.... and knocking the stuffing out of rage that's building and building... is an amazing thing.

Yesterday T told the story of monks burying a golden buddha in mud when their village was ransacked and overtaken by an enemy.  Years later, after all the monks were gone, a child saw the glint of gold, leading to uncovering this beautiful buddha, and that reminded me of Tupp.   

Just clearing out all the mud, and garbage, and judgments other people installed when we weren't able to defend ourselves, or make sense of it at the time. 

Now that we're adults, and capable of defending ourselves.... and in my case, with help from a good T maybe to show me how, and keep me focused....
we uninstall the garbage, and remember what was always there.

And that brings me back to the gray black excercise.  We're reconsolidating and changing the garbage stories INTO the original truth.

It's not hard.  It's not a difficult process.  It's relieving stress in the brain so the brain can do what it does efficiently WHEN IT'S NOT STUCK IN FIGHT OR FLIGHT MODE/amygdala/reptilian brain.  We're remembering what's been there from the start, and will always be there.

One last thing about yesterday's appointment.... I didn't realize I held some of the beliefs around the story of my ASPD N husband, and the first night he assaulted me and I thought I would be killed while listening to my oldest 4yo dd call our for me.... THAT is something I've never processed, and thinking about it was like experiencing someone else's feelings and thoughts about it, bc I just haven't done it.  Ever. 

I didn't recognize my own belief system about it.  I'd never asked myself, or allowed myself to process it. 

It's time, and that one thing leads to a hundred, IME.

The journey continues.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on December 08, 2019, 03:38:18 AM
::munching blueberries the size of grapes::

They're really good.  Most are tart and sweet, just the way I like them.  I don't like bland ones, and the occasional moldy one doesn't upset me.  The discomfort, if there's any discomfort now... and there is.... is more about MY eating something I bought for the girls. 

Usually I don't eat fresh fruit in the fridge.   If the girls don't eat it, then it typically dies, or I've frozen it for smoothies, or as little blueberry popsicles,  which youngest dd likes.   I've felt that way about food for years.... eating what they left, not preparing a plate for myself, bc money was scary, and anxiety always kills my appetite anyways. 

Interesting, Lighter, I'm very similar.  I'll go to great lengths to do nice meals for son but when it comes to myself it's often bits cobbled together in a 'that'll do' manner.  I bought a cookbook in the charity shop last week that suggests meals made from foods that help with certain types of health problems - things to keep your heart healthy, things to balance your blood sugar, things to help with anxiety and so on.  A lot of the meals look really nice but they contain ingredients that I don't usually buy because of the cost and it was interesting for me to notice how difficult I find it to spend money on food and cook myself good meals every day, rather than every now and again.  Mmmm, more to ponder.

It's concerning,  but I'm managing to stay in observer mode.  Mostly.

SO... yesterday with T we explored feeling worthy enough, and that lead to an hour long dash down one triggered rabbit hole after another.

I'm not over the legals, I have more hard feelings for third party bystanders and enablers than I do toward my ASPD N husband as my expectations for him came into focus pretty quickly.  Not so with the systems, law officers, and people who should do the right thing, but have so often fallen down, failed, done the wrong thing or just a little favor for a buddy(Judge in the case I'm thinking about THIS SECOND), then thrown the case into a baby judge's lap so he didn't have to look at what he'd done, or deal with it.  Maybe putting faces in the room where he threw a stink bomb (fig.) just isn't pleasant, but WTH has to happen when people without standing to BRING a case get to file an Appeal, and win it, on the case that was thrown out?  That makes my eyes cross, and there are years of this kind of sabotage and heinous fuckery I'll have to finish processing, and put behind me.

Yes, exactly the same, Lighter!  My mum was only able to carry out that decade long campaign of abuse because so many people helped her.  That people who have chosen to do a job that involves helping vulnerable people (as all public sector jobs do, in one way or another) and then chose to ignore the procedure and legislation and lie and manipulate the situation to give more power to the abuser than the abusee - that bothers me so much more than anything my mum did.  And more so because it means we know we don't have a safety net.  The services and support systems that are supposed to be there when we need protection or help are so flawed that they can do us more harm than good.  Certainly for me, it's what makes me want to keep away from them.  And it's a frightening world when you know you can't rely on doctors, the police, social workers, judges and so on to just do their job properly, regardless of their personal feelings about a situation.  Very scary.

So, we did an excercise where I talked about a time I felt empowered, what was I wearing (favorite boots), what color comes up around that (black) how it felt to BE in that space.... I felt in control, remembered the click of my heels, and the purpose in my strides.... always very physical.... I felt that power in my hips.

Then we shifted to a time I felt vulnerable, and at the mercy of.  That color was gray... it was dark, and lonely, and I could picture a grey sky framed by leafless black trees.... but gray was the color not feeling worthy. 

We put the black in one hand and the gray in the other, T mirroring me, and held them like little balls about a foot apart.  The right hand, holding the black... tingled like crazy. The left hand felt lighter.  Now, we're sensing how each hand feels... the brain processes in symbols and finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time, and will make sense of them.  I won't bore you with it all,  but we moved the hands closer together, and talked about how that felt, and what I saw when I pictured the gray... then pictured the black.  What were the changes, etc. 

So interesting that it actually creates a physical sensation.  Do you think you are more emotionally/spiritually sensitive than an average person or do you think anyone doing this would experience the same thing?  it sounds quite incredible.  Does if feel scary while you do it?

When we eventually merged hands my fingers experienced an electrical shock so intense I was surprised there wasn't any noise associated with it.  A few fingers actually hurt.  We explored the black and feeling empowered, then examined the gray and back and forth... not sure exactly how that went, bc I was trying to FINISH it.  Sometimes I go in thinking I'll really pay attention and try to remember what happened, but it never goes that way, bc I can't do both, and I'm there to process as priority.

I was feeling OK when the hour was up, but then.... I wasn't.  T used EMDR.  I focused on the somatic sensations, which were all neutral... shocking considering the emotional upset, but in these cases I focus on the feelings of neutrality while doing the EMDR.  it was really difficult to follow her fingers with my eyes for some reason.  Sometimes my tongue wants to help out, but not this time.   It was just so darned hard... like my vision wanted to stop on her face.  VERY hard to think about bodily sensations and follow the fingers.  Each time she stopped and checked in... I felt better.  This is called desensitizing, and I can do it on my own.

There was another pass or two with focus on anything that felt pleasant in the body,and I have to say... .just feeling neutral was a very pleasant feeling for me. 

Tupp.... it's nice to put the story on the shelf, then do really important work by focusing ONLY on the somatic sensations.  I think it takes the retraumatizing factor down to a footnote very quickly, then helps to process the source trauma, but that's what happened last week, and I'll post about that on it's own.

Lighter

'm scrolling down to read the next bit, Lighter :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on December 08, 2019, 03:54:02 AM
Fork.  I can't find my notes on last week's T session, but will put down what I remember.

This was the second time we processed a particlary triggering story, and I notice I'll just blather on and on if the T doesn't stop me pretty quickly.... put the story on the shelf then move on to what we're there to do. 

I AM RIGHT THERE, in that moment, unable to distinguish between then and the present.... I am engaged fully, as I was in those moments.  She sees that, and cuts it right off.  We focus on the sensations, we do some EMDR, we check in and note any changes, then dive back into the sensations.

Yes, exactly the same.  It's almost like an out of body experience for me.  I know I'm spiraling, I know I'm out of control, I know I'm reacting to something from the past and not from the present - but I can't step in to do anything about it.  It's like watching a crash in slow motion, when you can see the cars are going to hit but there's nothing you can do to stop it.

At a point we bring up the event, and I think about it from beginning to end while doing EMDR.  Check in with how I'm feeling, focus on that and do more EMDR. 

It's like we bring up the distress, then calm it down, bring it up, calm it down, and so on.  Put numbers on it.  In this case I had a very sharp stabbing pain in my back, left side which is associate with being chakras, and being betrayed in a nutshell.  Made sense to me.

Yes, makes sense to me as well.

Next we go through the story and loop it from beginning to end more than once while doing EMDR, then check in on feelings, and address them witih EMDR.

I'm not sure what happens next, so will jot down approximates....
Bring up someone INTO the scenario we look up to, trust, feel protected by and advocated by.... I chose myself, again, grown, calm, and helping everyone in the scene, which was intuitive for me.

It's telling that you choose yourself, Lighter, to stand up for yourself.

I went through the story as I wished it had happened, and that went pretty quick, compared to the other stuff.  I noticed the original story was getting more difficult to bring into focus, when I tried, and was just not coming up for me when I tried to picture it as we went along.

Then it was time to put everything in to a box from the original story, or from a set of years, or an entire lifetime, or just an entire childhood, and I chose all the upsetting incidents I could recall, put them in the box, and chose total destruction through burning.

I built the fire in my firepit, and there were family membersd... everyone close, all deceased, and my siblings when they were younger, and our grandparents and parents comforted sibs and my younger self while I burned the entire  box to ashes.  Mom served food from a picnic basket.... children napped.... everyone sat in the old time yard chairs from my Paternal grandparent's yard. 

I love that there was a picnic :)  Does T talk you through that story or do you create that in your mind?

When the deed was done, I think we got up, and headed toward a bridge to our new lives.  At the bridges edge we stopped to empty our pockets of everything from the past that needed to be left behind.  I just had us take off all our clothes, and walk across the bridge in white cotton shifts, shorts and tee shirts. 

When we got there we explored how that felt, then pictured a fountain.

Babies played in the spray, and grandparents sat on the edge, or in chairs by the side, and I dived in, and twirled, and did backflips in the water over and over... just all in, immersed, and refreshed.

I didn't think about the original story, bc in memory reconsolidation you want to let the new story continue processing as is.  Every time we bring up a picture or story it's changed.  Never static.  It was easy to leave it alone, as it was the first time we did this for a different story..... I'd say I was 4 yo for the first one, and 11yo for the second story.

Those two stories were traced back from current trigger stories, and we worked on them until there was zero emotional charge involved with any aspect of the original story or the present-day triggers we started with.

It's easier to lean into the discomfort of this work when I know and trust it leads to processing the story, and into a serene place of relief, and gratitude it's done.  I believe it will last, and so far so good... it's 100% remained in place.  Old stories gone. 

It's amazing that it's re-wiring your brain like this.  And doing physical good, I imagine, by unlocking and unblocking things.

New stories in place... I experience so much relief where there was a lot of pain, tough emotions, and painful bodily sensations.  Like a thousand pounds lifted.  I don't care what the pounds were, or where they went, though I visualize them as
engaging unprocessed emotions in the amygdala....
the T assists with brain integration, helping to bring other parts of the brain online to support the amygdala, relieve tension around the story and in the brain, and make it possible to move that story into the processing center, then present it again and again to be processed until the brain has calmed enough to complete processing and file it into historic files in just the way I would have had that story go IF I HAD CONTROL OVER THE SITUATION. 

I can't tell you how satisfying it is to EXPERIENCE that outcome, and process.... just the details that come out of my mouth when asked how I'd rather have had that experience go.... I'm always shocked by the details and direction, and those things come without having to think, typically, or with very little reflection.  It feels like just the right answers were always there, waiting.

This is a pretty close approximating, and I didn't remember the fire, or the bridge, or the fountain from the first time we completed this process.  It felt like we were doing this for the first time. 

Shiftring into fight or flight mode feels a lot like being blindfolded and gagged.... sat on..... forced into a corner.....  unable to move or shift out of that space, and it's EVERYTHING.....
I just didn't have the ability to remember those parts of the process when we completed the experience the first time.

I must not have had access to the parts of my brain that create new memories while I was IN that place..... and this time.... that I can remember more.... for me means I've calmed my brain enough to have some restored access during times of intense stress.... of reducing the stress, and it's hoped every time we get through this, along with consistent practice to fire and wire new neural pathways... I'll achieve more resilience, finish processing the unprocessed triggers from most to least powerful,  until I'm able to regulate my emotions consistently as default setting.  If not, I'll know how to calm myself and move into a place where I can regulate my emotions.

Will be so amazing for you to get to a point where all you're dealing with is right here and right now, Lighter, and being able to put all that energy into creating things that you want, rather than dealing with things that you don't.  So amazing and much deserved.

Sometimes when we do check ins at the end of a session, something will come up... 2 sessions ago it was a T who harmed me and my children... the court appointed T who terrorized us an entire summer, and made my children fearl they'd be taken from me and given to their paternal grandparents in 2013.... THAT woman, the thought of her... that she made my youngest feel responsible for that terror....  is still in place, and T said it's my own self judgment that's behind that, which shut me up, and made me think. 

What does she mean by your self judgement, Lighter?  I was a bit confused by that.  It's quite early here :) Lol

Just shutting down the cycle is an amazing thing.  Bringing my attention to it.... and knocking the stuffing out of rage that's building and building... is an amazing thing.

Yesterday T told the story of monks burying a golden buddha in mud when their village was ransacked and overtaken by an enemy.  Years later, after all the monks were gone, a child saw the glint of gold, leading to uncovering this beautiful buddha, and that reminded me of Tupp.   

Lol, I often look in the mirror and think I look like I've been dug up, Lighter :)  Lol

Just clearing out all the mud, and garbage, and judgments other people installed when we weren't able to defend ourselves, or make sense of it at the time. 

Now that we're adults, and capable of defending ourselves.... and in my case, with help from a good T maybe to show me how, and keep me focused....
we uninstall the garbage, and remember what was always there.

And that brings me back to the gray black excercise.  We're reconsolidating and changing the garbage stories INTO the original truth.

It's not hard.  It's not a difficult process.  It's relieving stress in the brain so the brain can do what it does efficiently WHEN IT'S NOT STUCK IN FIGHT OR FLIGHT MODE/amygdala/reptilian brain.  We're remembering what's been there from the start, and will always be there.

One last thing about yesterday's appointment.... I didn't realize I held some of the beliefs around the story of my ASPD N husband, and the first night he assaulted me and I thought I would be killed while listening to my oldest 4yo dd call our for me.... THAT is something I've never processed, and thinking about it was like experiencing someone else's feelings and thoughts about it, bc I just haven't done it.  Ever. 

Terrifying, Lighter, and more so because of the kids.  I had one aggressive incident with son's father.  He had me backed against a wall and was screaming in my face - not physically touching, but very aggressive, very violent, very unpleasant.  Son was asleep in his cot, very young at the time, but what was going through my mind was that I could easily get away from this idiot and get out the front door - but I couldn't easily get away, get up the stairs, get son, get back down the stairs and get past him to get out the front door with son in my arms.  And if I got out I wouldn't have any feeds, nappies or a change of clothes for son, either.  It makes a huge difference when your kids are being exposed to that level of violence as well.  We were, as children, although with us it was usually my mum attacking my dad.  Makes it a much harder thing to deal with and yes, processing will be tough.  But such a relief, I would have thought.  You might need to change your name from Lighter to Lightest :)  Lol

I didn't recognize my own belief system about it.  I'd never asked myself, or allowed myself to process it. 

It's time, and that one thing leads to a hundred, IME.

The journey continues.

Lighter

Phew!  A lot of work, Lighter, but so rewarding!  I am thinking I might look for an EMDR therapist to help me process everything that comes up as I tackle my paperwork mountain next year.  32 boxes and lever arch files, all representing nearly two decades of abuse, inequality and repeated experiences.  Mmm.  Might be worth investing in some practical support to get through that.  I will look into it further.  Thank you so much for sharing all of this.  I'm glad you are finding it all so useful xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on December 08, 2019, 06:11:49 AM
Thanks for describing this therapy Lighter. I'm finding it very interesting - but I don't believe (I could always be wrong) that it would work with my brain. Hol's on the other hand, might respond really well. Dunno.

It's so hard to predict what will work; how one might benefit... since we all live safe within our ego's comfort zone fantasy about ourselves. (Even though we believe the opposite.) LOL... sorry, it is very early this morning and I've been filtering a lot projection from Hol again from my own stuff.

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 08, 2019, 01:39:59 PM
Thanks for describing this therapy Lighter. I'm finding it very interesting - but I don't believe (I could always be wrong) that it would work with my brain. Hol's on the other hand, might respond really well. Dunno.

It's so hard to predict what will work; how one might benefit... since we all live safe within our ego's comfort zone fantasy about ourselves. (Even though we believe the opposite.) LOL... sorry, it is very early this morning and I've been filtering a lot projection from Hol again from my own stuff.

Amber:

IME I've had this type of relationship with 2 male attorneys.... they were attorneys I spoke with, and didn't hire in the moments I'm referring to. 

These attorneys seemed to posess a baseline confidence and ability to keep their egos OUT of the discussions.  We'd talk.  They'd ask pointed questions that were productive, and helped them research the laws and all possible interpretations.
 I had all the information I could ask for, and best chance of making a good plan.   

Many experiences with attorneys seemed to be fear based on their part.  They had egos as big as the moon hanging out there, bleeding, ready react, and punish me for asking a question, or for clarification on some complicated point.  That was counter productive to our relationship, to say the least, and to some degree, that ego involvement with Ts has been destructive as well.

This new T is 13 years in recovery, was raised in a PD FOO, has centered herself with mindful practice, yoga, and operates in from an intuitive place that resonates with me, and how I operate.  We speak the same language, so it seems. No barriers there is a good thing. 

 That means we can focus on my mission, and move at a fast paced clip while avoiding rabbit holes, and defensiveness on both our parts. 

She's done her inner world work, and that helps her keep her ego and frustrations out of the work, IMO, which is necessary,  bc my egos all over the place right now. 

Considering my interest in brain body integration I'd say I was ready for exactly what she's practicing/teaching.  Another time, and that wouldn't have been the case. 

We're e all human, and there's reactivity for all of us.  We can live with it, without awareness, or we can engage mindfulness practice, and learn to regulate our emotions, as this T practices daily.

My father spoke with scathing words, and style.  It's been installed in my brain, and it comes out when I'm very upset.  I know I mean to trigger emotional responses when I'm telling a truth, and I want to go there with economy of motion.  I have to say...  just bc I can, doesn't mean I should, and it's hindered my ability to be understood all my life. 

I don't believe I could work with a T who isn't practicing mindful awareness, and that's about me, not them.  It would be too difficult to stay on track, and not go down their rabbit holes, IME.

The same with attorneys.... if they have emotional distance,  and can stay focused on the mission, the mission gets attention. If they focus on my style, or PD facts that make no sense in their frame of reference... then the focus their lack of understanding, my frustration, their ego scuffs, and iwe might win the case, but everyone's bruised, and feeling beaten, and sure resolution and final understanding feel like an exciting balm, but darnit.... any professional beginning with a baseline ability to regulate their emotions has a huge leg up in any profession they practice,  IME. 

I think that's what Doc G has, and why he can connect well with patients, and help them.

Hmmm..... could it be that simple?

Lightwer


 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 08, 2019, 04:25:48 PM
::munching blueberries the size of grapes::

They're really good.  Most are tart and sweet, just the way I like them.  I don't like bland ones, and the occasional moldy one doesn't upset me.  The discomfort, if there's any discomfort now... and there is.... is more about MY eating something I bought for the girls. 

Usually I don't eat fresh fruit in the fridge.   If the girls don't eat it, then it typically dies, or I've frozen it for smoothies, or as little blueberry popsicles,  which youngest dd likes.   I've felt that way about food for years.... eating what they left, not preparing a plate for myself, bc money was scary, and anxiety always kills my appetite anyways. 

Interesting, Lighter, I'm very similar.  I'll go to great lengths to do nice meals for son but when it comes to myself it's often bits cobbled together in a 'that'll do' manner.  I bought a cookbook in the charity shop last week that suggests meals made from foods that help with certain types of health problems - things to keep your heart healthy, things to balance your blood sugar, things to help with anxiety and so on.  A lot of the meals look really nice but they contain ingredients that I don't usually buy because of the cost and it was interesting for me to notice how difficult I find it to spend money on food and cook myself good meals every day, rather than every now and again.  Mmmm, more to ponder.


I think I was a pretty "normal" parent before my ASPD H went off the rails.  I could likely say I was somewhat self-focused (self-ish seems wrong) as a single person sailing through life with very little responsibility, save herself, home, and work out group/social group... they were the same.  I remember looking at older photo albums of my life... after having children, and those photos created discomfort for me.  It was ME enjoying my life, enjoying boys, enjoying my power at every level, and I don't know exactly what that means, except there was a change after that first physical assault that rocked my biology on a cellular level.  I couldn't breathe, couldn't eat,  lost so much weight I was sick, and that was really confusing bc everyone was telling me I looked great or telling me I wasn't special bc I'd lost the weight.... in other words.... they were envious and wanted to take me down a peg when I was in shock, and didn't need to be knocked down any more.  I needed support, and someone to acknowledge my crisis.  Anyway.... at some point my fight or flight system (Parasympathetic Nervous System PNS) flipped into the ON position, and it stayed on, with short bouts of flipping back,
 but at a point my brain and body didn't see anything to be gained by switching, bc it was just harder, and so.....my adrenals were shot, and my "normal" was living in fight or flight mode.  I remember watching it with some alarm.  Understanding it was happening, but just not able to figure out a better way.  That affected my parenting, food issues, healthcare issues, school issues, everything to do with parenting, and there were good and bad consequences to that I'm just now exploring. 

The codependence might have been a thing for me, but the fight or flight coupled with parenting, and ongoing crisis/threat/danger ramped everything up..... for better or worse.  I believe I was doing my very best in those circumstances, and I'm going to give myself a pass, undo some of the habits I developed during that time, and replace those habits and pathways that no longer serve. 

I guess I'm saying I likely have some issues around worthiness from growing up with young golden child parents who had zero information about discipline, vs punishment and awareness around childhood phases.  My mom SHOULD have been a beauty queen, and gone to college, and carved a life for herself before having children, bc her message to us was she made a mistake... we were mistakes.... if she had it to do over again she never would have had us, and we shouldn't repeat her mistake, which is why I was 36yo when I considered having children, and wouldn't have been surprised if I didn't have them at all.  I'm not judging that, I'm just aware it's what it was. 

My choices also inform my decision to NOT CARE about stuff, and how things look.  I mean... there's resistance there that's difficult to explain until you look at my upbringing.  Explains a lot, and I'm ready to process it and let it go now. 

It's concerning,  but I'm managing to stay in observer mode.  Mostly.

SO... yesterday with T we explored feeling worthy enough, and that lead to an hour long dash down one triggered rabbit hole after another.

I'm not over the legals, I have more hard feelings for third party bystanders and enablers than I do toward my ASPD N husband as my expectations for him came into focus pretty quickly.  Not so with the systems, law officers, and people who should do the right thing, but have so often fallen down, failed, done the wrong thing or just a little favor for a buddy(Judge in the case I'm thinking about THIS SECOND), then thrown the case into a baby judge's lap so he didn't have to look at what he'd done, or deal with it.  Maybe putting faces in the room where he threw a stink bomb (fig.) just isn't pleasant, but WTH has to happen when people without standing to BRING a case get to file an Appeal, and win it, on the case that was thrown out?  That makes my eyes cross, and there are years of this kind of sabotage and heinous fuckery I'll have to finish processing, and put behind me.

Yes, exactly the same, Lighter!  My mum was only able to carry out that decade long campaign of abuse because so many people helped her.  That people who have chosen to do a job that involves helping vulnerable people (as all public sector jobs do, in one way or another) and then chose to ignore the procedure and legislation and lie and manipulate the situation to give more power to the abuser than the abusee - that bothers me so much more than anything my mum did.  And more so because it means we know we don't have a safety net.  The services and support systems that are supposed to be there when we need protection or help are so flawed that they can do us more harm than good.  Certainly for me, it's what makes me want to keep away from them.  And it's a frightening world when you know you can't rely on doctors, the police, social workers, judges and so on to just do their job properly, regardless of their personal feelings about a situation.  Very scary.
I guess I'm identifying the whole lack of mindfulness/awareness thing as reason people... all people.... are easily manipulated, and triggered into performing bad acts, and heinous fuckery going against every law, rule, moral boundary... .  It's super apparent in life and death situations involving vulnerable members of society... children and victims of domestic violence in all it's forms... financial, emotional, physical, legal... all of them, and that's what I focus on NOW bc it happened TO ME and my children. 

If I sat back, and looked around I'd see it everywhere, in all situations, bc it's part of the human condition.  Sometimes I'm reactive, and sometimes it's a neighbor, and sometimes it's a police officer, sometimes a FOO member, sometimes my child, or a teacher, or attorney..... everyone benefits from learning skills that build resilience and emotional regulation.  I imagine a world where teaching that to all children, and people in positions of authority and trust going forward, and I can see improvement everywhere.  I'm hopeful.   


So, we did an excercise where I talked about a time I felt empowered, what was I wearing (favorite boots), what color comes up around that (black) how it felt to BE in that space.... I felt in control, remembered the click of my heels, and the purpose in my strides.... always very physical.... I felt that power in my hips.

Then we shifted to a time I felt vulnerable, and at the mercy of.  That color was gray... it was dark, and lonely, and I could picture a grey sky framed by leafless black trees.... but gray was the color not feeling worthy. 

We put the black in one hand and the gray in the other, T mirroring me, and held them like little balls about a foot apart.  The right hand, holding the black... tingled like crazy. The left hand felt lighter.  Now, we're sensing how each hand feels... the brain processes in symbols and finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time, and will make sense of them.  I won't bore you with it all,  but we moved the hands closer together, and talked about how that felt, and what I saw when I pictured the gray... then pictured the black.  What were the changes, etc. 

So interesting that it actually creates a physical sensation.  Do you think you are more emotionally/spiritually sensitive than an average person or do you think anyone doing this would experience the same thing?  it sounds quite incredible.  Does if feel scary while you do it?
When I was working out with my martial arts instructor, he gave me a book on Chines medicine that had me seated, hands apart in front of my belly, playing with the feeling created by widening and playing with hand position to feel the energy.  It was interesting, and I COULD feel it... above my thighs, between my hands in front of my belly button, it was curious but didn't mean much outside I SAW there was something to ancient Chinese medicine, even if I didn't understand it.  That was introduced in martial arts bc we were learning to do harm and trauma to people, and we were required to learn how to heal... the yin and yang principles.
 Martial Arts instructor was big on the isms... as he put it.  Taoism mainly.

The brain integration work helped understand energetic fields better, bc working on some people created all kinds of tingling and what felt like sparks... some didn't.  Having brain integration performed ON me...  I could feel energetic work IN my brain, like someone touching my brain, and it was real.  Same with a point to the left of my belly button..... and that stabbing pain in my back had me arched up on the table during a session once... I was in terrible pain during a treatment session during a training session. 

Everyone has an electrical circuit,  Tupp.  Some are very sensitive to it, and others aren't.  I don't think I'm particularly sensitive.  For one thing, during a training session I almost threw up, and got really sick during an intense session performed on another student with a big emotional issue.  The instructor moved away, and I almost darted from the room thinking I had food poisoning.  Instructor later said she was glad I felt that. I got the feeling she understood I had more sensitivity than she originally thought I did.... backhanded compliment delivered in a weird package, IMO. 

Our chakras, and meridians are real, can be tracked scientifically, have been documented in medical journals, and we all have them.  I spent a weekend suffering a headache after one brain integration session that was too much work at once... I feel asleep in the bathtub afterwards once, and woke up in cold water.  Very odd, but proof work was happening, IME. I also couldn't type as well afterwards, and if I didn't share before... before I traveled I had a session to deal with breathing... I've always been a shallow breather bc of tense stomach muscles, and my feet had issues.  The foot part was interesting with improved mobility and pain relief... joints had locked up around old injuries, and unlocking them helped a lot, etc.  When we got to the breathing.... that's when I felt that first ligth tough inside my stomach.... like someone was inside, poking.  I'm not careful enough with myself, and jumped up to see if there were any differences with the Brain Integration practitioner telling me to go slow.... and I found myself doubled over unable to breathe.  It was terrifying. I bet I posted about it here, but I was looking around for relief, about to run out the door when practitioner convinced me to get back on the table..  she'd help me.... and I remember shaking like I shook when the first epidural of my life was too strong, tensed up my muscles so I thought they'd break... it felt like I'd shake myself off the table.  That shaking started at the top of my body in this case, and as I resisted it,  moved down to my feet, and bounced my feet around, then I fought it back up top... EXHAUSTING and I just couldn't let it be, and have it's way, and release..nope nope nope. Honestly, I think it's the same principle as animals shaking off their trauma....  my nervous system was ready to do that work, and trying..... I just couldn't take that kind of loss of control and fought it.   When I went back and asked to repeat that work, ready to relax into it, we couldn't make it happen again. 

The work, IME, can be done in different ways, with different people, using different modalities, and on our own.  We all have access if we're interested in learning, and practicing, IME.
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When we eventually merged hands my fingers experienced an electrical shock so intense I was surprised there wasn't any noise associated with it.  A few fingers actually hurt.  We explored the black and feeling empowered, then examined the gray and back and forth... not sure exactly how that went, bc I was trying to FINISH it.  Sometimes I go in thinking I'll really pay attention and try to remember what happened, but it never goes that way, bc I can't do both, and I'm there to process as priority.

I was feeling OK when the hour was up, but then.... I wasn't.  T used EMDR.  I focused on the somatic sensations, which were all neutral... shocking considering the emotional upset, but in these cases I focus on the feelings of neutrality while doing the EMDR.  it was really difficult to follow her fingers with my eyes for some reason.  Sometimes my tongue wants to help out, but not this time.   It was just so darned hard... like my vision wanted to stop on her face.  VERY hard to think about bodily sensations and follow the fingers.  Each time she stopped and checked in... I felt better.  This is called desensitizing, and I can do it on my own.

There was another pass or two with focus on anything that felt pleasant in the body,and I have to say... .just feeling neutral was a very pleasant feeling for me. 

Tupp.... it's nice to put the story on the shelf, then do really important work by focusing ONLY on the somatic sensations.  I think it takes the retraumatizing factor down to a footnote very quickly, then helps to process the source trauma, but that's what happened last week, and I'll post about that on it's own.

Lighter

'm scrolling down to read the next bit, Lighter :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 08, 2019, 06:31:10 PM

Yes, exactly the same.  It's almost like an out of body experience for me.  I know I'm spiraling, I know I'm out of control, I know I'm reacting to something from the past and not from the present - but I can't step in to do anything about it.  It's like watching a crash in slow motion, when you can see the cars are going to hit but there's nothing you can do to stop it.



At a point, we bring up the event, and I think about it from beginning to end while doing EMDR.  Check-in with how I'm feeling, focus on that and do more EMDR. 

It's like we bring up the distress, then calm it down, bring it up, calm it down, and so on.  Put numbers on it.  In this case, I had a very sharp stabbing pain in my back, left side which is associated with chakras, and being betrayed, in a nutshell.  Made sense to me.

Yes, makes sense to me as well.

Next, we go through the story and loop it from beginning to end more than once while doing EMDR, then check in on feelings, and address them with EMDR.

I'm not sure what happens next, so will jot down approximates....
Bring up someone INTO the scenario we look up to, trust, feel protected by and advocated by.... I chose myself, again, grown, calm, and helping everyone in the scene, which was intuitive for me.

It's telling that you choose yourself, Lighter, to stand up for yourself.

I think it helps me to hold my parents with compassion and give them the help they didn't have while raising young children.  Their parents didn't know better.  Their parents knew they were "special" and IMO my grandparents saw us, the grandchildren, as extensions of their children.... not separate, or worthy of the same gc treatment, certainly.  Well, my brother was golden child II on my father's side of the family, but that had all kinds of biases towards men tied in also.  My mother's side didn't see any grandchildren as important as my mother.
 My mother's figure was more important than breastfeeding babies, for instance.
 There was never a question mom would swallow that little pill that made her milk fall out at once.  God only knows what they put in those earlier man-made formulas doctors shoved down mother's throats as "better than mother's milk."  Asses. See there?  I identify that harsh judgment and I do think it points to my inability to release judging myself.  It comes and goes, IME.   


I went through the story as I wished it had happened, and that went pretty quick, compared to the other stuff.  I noticed the original story was getting more difficult to bring into focus when I tried and was just not coming up for me when I tried to picture it as we went along.

Then it was time to put everything/pictures/stories/pain into a box from the original story, or from a set of years, or an entire lifetime, or just an entire childhood, and I chose all the upsetting incidents I could recall, put them in the box, and chose total destruction through burning.

I built the fire in my firepit, and there were family members... everyone close, all deceased, and my siblings when they were younger, and our grandparents and parents comforted sibs and my younger self while I burned the entire box to ashes.  Mom served food from a picnic basket.... children napped.... everyone sat in the old-time yard chairs from my Paternal grandparent's yard. 

I love that there was a picnic :)  Does T talk you through that story or do you create that in your mind?

I'm super private, so I mostly go through these steps on my own, without telling T about it as it happens.   I don't think I could speak about it,
 bc I'm just THERE, in that place visualizing, and it takes a lot of energy.  A LOT of energy.  Afterwards, the T always asks questions about how things went, besides asking me about how the feeling in my body changed or didn't change.  She wants to know who I picked to be present, what we were doing, if I burned the box of pictures down to complete ash..... she asks for details, but only after I've processed in my own way, in silence, during EMDR to the finish.  If she asks for any detail in the middle, I don't remember it, and I think I'd be put off by it, and perhaps thrown out of the moment. 

About what the T says when she asks me to choose someone... .she'll say some people select a Saint, or a protective family member, or a superhero, or themselves as an empowered competent adult, and give me choices. I think I just nod when I have it, and I don't necessarily tell her what I picked... maybe after that EMDR moment passes, and we're checking somatic responses she asks. 
If I was the T I'd want to know!  I'd want more feedback, and this T does ask for it, eventually, but I doubt I'd share much if she didn't gently enquire, and she begins her inquiries by sharing her experience with that kind of session, or of another person's experience or of common experiences which do make me curious,
 and engages me from a place of wanting to see how my experience stacks up to other people's.   I find myself really interested in hearing more, and I give her something of my experience,and she reciprocates, and it's a give and take.
  I would shut down if I felt she was barging into my experience for the sake of entertainment, which used to bother me with my FOO.  She gently tip toes around my boundaries in a super respectful, overtly compassionate manner that IMHO is required to get to this place FOR ME.  A bossy T, telling me what I MUST DO, how and when would not suit me at all, IME.

Like I said before, I remember more as the sessions go on.  Maybe discussions afterwards, with me back in a good place, are what stick, or help the memories stick with more detail, and expanded content?


When the deed was done, I think we got up, and headed toward a bridge to our new lives.  At the bridges edge we stopped to empty our pockets of everything from the past that needed to be left behind.  I just had us take off all our clothes, and walk across the bridge in white cotton shifts, shorts and tee shirts. 

When we got there we explored how that felt, then pictured a fountain.

Babies played in the spray, and grandparents sat on the edge, or in chairs by the side, and I dived in, and twirled, and did backflips in the water over and over... just all in, immersed, and refreshed.

I didn't think about the original story, bc in memory reconsolidation you want to let the new story continue processing as is.  Every time we bring up a picture or story it's changed.  Never static.  It was easy to leave it alone, as it was the first time we did this for a different story..... I'd say I was 4 yo for the first one, and 11yo for the second story.

Those two stories were traced back from current trigger stories, and we worked on them until there was zero emotional charges involved with any aspect of the original story or the present-day triggers we started with.

It's easier to lean into the discomfort of this work when I know and trust it leads to processing the story, and into a serene place of relief, and gratitude it's done.  I believe it will last, and so far so good... it's 100% remained in place.  Old stories gone. 

It's amazing that it's re-wiring your brain like this.  And doing physical good, I imagine, by unlocking and unblocking things.

I see it as relieving stress in the brain, bringing up traumatic events, moving them into processing centers/midbrain/feeling areas, checking the somatic input, working on the somatic with EMDR, checking the feelings, presenting the story to the brain again with EMDR, then checking the feelings, and how it looks, what's changed, etc.  EMDR on the feelings to further reduce stress,  then checking, and we just keep presenting the information to the brain, over and over while relieving stress.  We don't move on to the next phase till we get to zeros or near zeros. 

New stories in place... I experience so much relief where there was a lot of pain, tough emotions, and painful bodily sensations.  Like a thousand pounds lifted.  I don't care what the pounds were, or where they went, though I visualize them as
engaging unprocessed emotions in the amygdala....
the T assists with brain integration, helping to bring other parts of the brain online to support the amygdala, relieve tension around the story and in the brain, and make it possible to move that story into the processing center, then present it again and again to be processed until the brain has calmed enough to complete processing and file it into historic files in just the way I would have had that story go IF I HAD CONTROL OVER THE SITUATION. 

I can't tell you how satisfying it is to EXPERIENCE that outcome, and process.... just the details that come out of my mouth when asked how I'd rather have had that experience go.... I'm always shocked by the details and direction, and those things come without having to think, typically, or with very little reflection.  It feels like just the right answers were always there, waiting.

This is a pretty close approximating, and I didn't remember the fire, or the bridge, or the fountain from the first time we completed this process.  It felt like we were doing this for the first time. 

Shiftring into fight or flight mode feels a lot like being blindfolded and gagged.... sat on..... forced into a corner.....  unable to move or shift out of that space, and it's EVERYTHING.....
I just didn't have the ability to remember those parts of the process when we completed the experience the first time.

I must not have had access to the parts of my brain that create new memories while I was IN that place..... and this time.... that I can remember more.... for me means I've calmed my brain enough to have some restored access during times of intense stress.... of reducing the stress, and it's hoped every time we get through this, along with consistent practice to fire and wire new neural pathways... I'll achieve more resilience, finish processing the unprocessed triggers from most to least powerful,  until I'm able to regulate my emotions consistently as default setting.  If not, I'll know how to calm myself and move into a place where I can regulate my emotions.

Will be so amazing for you to get to a point where all you're dealing with is right here and right now, Lighter, and being able to put all that energy into creating things that you want, rather than dealing with things that you don't.  So amazing and much deserved.

Sometimes when we do check-ins at the end of a session, something will come up... 2 sessions ago it was a T who harmed me and my children... the court-appointed T who terrorized us an entire summer, and made my children fear they'd be taken from me and given to their paternal grandparents in 2013.... THAT woman, the thought of her... that she made my youngest feel responsible for that terror....  is still in place, and T said it's my own self-judgment that's behind that, which shut me up, and made me think. 

What does she mean by your self-judgement, Lighter?  I was a bit confused by that.  It's quite early here :) Lol

T wants me to understand I've always done the best I could in every moment, considering the circumstances, widen my gaze, and understand that everyone is doing their best with that they have.  My judging someone else means I haven't dropped judgment.  I'm still flipping back into that mode.  If I'm judging others, I'm certainly judging myself,  and if I'm judging others I haven't widened my gaze to understand all humans are flawed, and doing their best, which relieves me of the need and desire to judge anything or anyone.  Things aren't personal. They just are.

Two appointments ago we worked on cutting energetic ties with imaginary scissors.  This was about that backstabbing pain again.  She associated this with energetic ties between people that keep us joined.  She said I could ask higher powers of my choice, that make sense to me, to help.  For instance, I could ask a beloved Grandfather to use his pocket knife, so familiar from our fishing trips.  Someone who believes in Saints, and is comfortable asking them for help might picture that Saint using a sword to cut that tie, and so on.   


Just shutting down the cycle is an amazing thing.  Bringing my attention to it.... and knocking the stuffing out of rage that's building and building... is an amazing thing.

Yesterday T told the story of monks burying a golden buddha in mud when their village was ransacked and overtaken by an enemy.  Years later, after all the monks were gone, a child saw the glint of gold, leading to uncovering this beautiful buddha, and that reminded me of Tupp.   

Lol, I often look in the mirror and think I look like I've been dug up, Lighter :)  Lol
Today I honestly considered getting dreadlocks.  For real, lol. I'm questioning my idea of what I should look like, and what society tells me I should look like.  Widening my gaze; )

Just clearing out all the mud, and garbage, and judgments other people installed when we weren't able to defend ourselves, or make sense of it at the time. 

Now that we're adults, and capable of defending ourselves.... and in my case, with help from a good T maybe to show me how, and keep me focused....
we uninstall the garbage, and remember what was always there.

And that brings me back to the gray black excercise.  We're reconsolidating and changing the garbage stories INTO the original truth.

It's not hard.  It's not a difficult process.  It's relieving stress in the brain so the brain can do what it does efficiently WHEN IT'S NOT STUCK IN FIGHT OR FLIGHT MODE/amygdala/reptilian brain.  We're remembering what's been there from the start, and will always be there.

One last thing about yesterday's appointment.... I didn't realize I held some of the beliefs around the story of my ASPD N husband, and the first night he assaulted me and I thought I would be killed while listening to my oldest 4yo dd call our for me.... THAT is something I've never processed, and thinking about it was like experiencing someone else's feelings and thoughts about it, bc I just haven't done it.  Ever. 

Terrifying, Lighter, and more so because of the kids.  I had one aggressive incident with son's father.  He had me backed against a wall and was screaming in my face - not physically touching, but very aggressive, very violent, very unpleasant.  Son was asleep in his cot, very young at the time, but what was going through my mind was that I could easily get away from this idiot and get out the front door - but I couldn't easily get away, get up the stairs, get son, get back down the stairs and get past him to get out the front door with son in my arms.  I have more experiences of being trapped, thinking I'd die, while frantically trying to think my way OUT of the house, with my purse, with my car keys, with my children.... just not die, and which door I might get to, and the desperate acceptance I'd have to go without the girls or we'd all be done,  and these racing terrible truths... that I'd never be able to outrun him in the street, or to the door.... putting the butcher block between us, then the dining room table... and I could have circled forever, bc not circling was death.  I think I'll be working on this stuff in the next session, and it's not scary.  I lean in bc I want to release the energy tying me to it, and be free of it.  I deserve to be free of it, and that's the mission now; )  And if I got out I wouldn't have any feeds, nappies or a change of clothes for son, either. Once I dreamed a nuclear blast was heading towards us, and I was getting things together for after we were killed by it.  I got diapers, and clean foot in jammies together, and it felt SO real.  The mommy imperative...  the desire to care for our young... to attend to them is so strong. In some of us anyway.  Not all. It makes a huge difference when your kids are being exposed to that level of violence as well.  I think all violence is detrimental to the children.  The statistics say exposure to parent on parent violence is just as detrimental as experiencing the violence for children.  We were, as children, although with us it was usually my mum attacking my dad.  Makes it a much harder thing to deal with and yes, processing will be tough. For me, the physical assault was devastating, and threat to my children all but shut me down emotionally, and physically.  I don't know what the massage T did, but he hurt me quite badly in order to get my lungs working again.  I think something was locked, and pressing into my lungs, as I recall.  It's all a blurr.  Interpersonal terrorism should be reevaluated, IMO.  The same way the courts changed their view of chokeholds...  terrorizing dependent family members and children should be reevaluated with stiffer mandatory punishments that deter, or stop abusers in their tracks bc they're in jail, trying to get bond, IN a system that's difficult to get out of once they're in. Take some of the pay off OUT of the equation. Educating everyone, so those abused are more likely to report the first or second assault... teaching people what abuse looks like, etc.  So many people are raised in abusive homes, it feels and IS normal to them.  Honestly, men hitting little children, and babies for heaven's sake.  Why would we allow that, particularly female children? I never wanted that to be my children's normal... being hit by men who are supposed to love and protect them.   That's just nuts  It never made any sense to me when I started researching discipline, and really LOOKED at my childhood, and how most people in this culture approach child discipline.  I taught my girls no one had the right to put hands on them in anger.  They shouldn't accept name-calling, raised voices, or word salad when engaged or trying to engage in discussions.  But such a relief, I would have thought.  You might need to change your name from Lighter to Lightest :)  Lol

You know, that's a great idea, ((Tupp!))
Lighter


I didn't recognize my own belief system about it.  I'd never asked myself, or allowed myself to process it. 

It's time, and that one thing leads to a hundred, IME.

The journey continues.

Lighter

Phew!  A lot of work, Lighter, but so rewarding!  I am thinking I might look for an EMDR therapist to help me process everything that comes up as I tackle my paperwork mountain next year.  32 boxes and lever arch files, all representing nearly two decades of abuse, inequality and repeated experiences.  Mmm.  Might be worth investing in some practical support to get through that.  I will look into it further.  Thank you so much for sharing all of this.  I'm glad you are finding it all so useful xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on December 08, 2019, 06:31:13 PM
This is some of the most intensely detailed stuff I've read about work within those energy or energy-conceived parts of our existence.

I don't have much to add to it, except that I think it's powerful.

Closest thing I ever experienced was repeated shiatsu massages at one point in my life after an injury, from a practitioner I knew and trusted. She ended every session with Reiki, which I didn't understand but trusted because I trusted her.

I always felt more than my hurt body was helped by those sessions. She later died in an accident in S. Africa where she was helping people affected by the AIDS epidemic, which tells you something about the kind of person she was.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 08, 2019, 06:43:54 PM
I'm sorry to hear that lovely T died before her time, Hops.  It sounds like she was an important person in your healing journey.

My T does Reiki, but she hasn't mentioned it in our sessions.  I've never experienced it, and I don't understand what it is exactly. 

:: going to look it up::

Lighter



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 08, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
OK, Reike looks a bit like what an Oncology Nurse did for my Bill in Washington when we attended a seminar on different cancer treatments. What she did appears to have been Raiki, though she didn't call it that. 

 She found his energy...... way off the side, away from his body, then attempted to remove the pain in his liver by holding her hands over that area.  Bill made upset noises about increased pain... the pain was bouncing around, and getting worse. 

The nurse said the pain was "sticky, like taffy" and stopped trying after a while. It appeared she was catching the pain, and trying to pull it OUT.  I didn't understand what I was looking at, and wouldn't have believed it if B wasn't crying out in pain as she moved her hands near, but not ON his body.  Amazing.     

We also saw an MD who practiced acupressure.  Bill was amazed to find his arm strength came and went, depending on what the Doc dropped in his lap. B didn't want to leave that doctor's office.  Ever.  He was a believer, and wanted that doctor's help.

I think B could have been helped if he'd been more open to alternative medicine before he became ill.  As it was he was dx'd with the same colon cancer his father had at exactly the same age his father died of it.  How much of that is controlled by the mind?  Outside factors, like drinking alcohol, which B did, as did his alcoholic father.  How much is in our genes?

I have no idea, but B said he remembered thinking he would die, just like his father, and wishing for it during his marriage, which I won't comment on except to say I had a chance to see boundary trouncing and PD behaviors from his ex-wife, and his oldest dd when B was unable to defend or protect himself at the end of his life. 

His dd tormented B and me, come to think of it... the entire 5 months, and she did it while referencing her mother.  Like she felt responsible to torment in her mother's place.  I'm sure there's a lot of stuff I didn't understand, and I didn't want to.  My focus was on healing relationships and putting things down on paper for his adult kids  The oldest dd smashed all that to bits, which was sad for the younger siblings. 

I wonder how much of B's illness was created by the emotional turmoil in his life, if any.  The ex-wife never missed a chance to gut the man, IME.  Controlling and denying access to his MIL, who he adored, while she died of pancreatic cancer.

So Reiki.  I think I've seen it, and didn't know what it was.   


Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on December 08, 2019, 08:12:33 PM
Lighter honestly, I truly would imagine that visiting a Reiki practitioner (as supplement to, not replacement for, the intense T-work you're already doing) would be amazing.

If you try it, hope you'll let us know.

(And now you know I truly am a cafeteritarian about healing modalities, "western" or alternative! What helps from each, just helps. Mind stays open. Evidence matters.)

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 10, 2019, 03:12:39 PM
I spoke with ex martial arts instructor for hours over the past 2 days.  Catching up was a lot of fun, bc we're interested in lots of the same things.... not a lot of people are. 

We shared information, sites, and statistics about law enforcement, martial arts, legal system, boxing for Parkinson's patients, Buddhism, brain integration, psychotherapy, mind/body/spririt connections and self care rituals at every level.... it's like a happy game of mental Twister.  Very enjoyable.  His background as one of the first Navy Seals, martial artist/healer/student of Buddhism/Toaism, hair dresser, salon/school owner, bounty hunter, PI and trainer of law enforcement officers/hairdressers/massage students, bounty hunters, martial arts... make him a very interesting character, IME.

I worked on 3 paperwork issues this morning.... solved 1, escalated 1, and left another message on the third.   Felt good, no emotional reactivity... or not much at all I noticed,  then put together a breakfast salad, and enjoyed it.. very satisfied. 

I dropped teacher's gifts and snacks off.  Those people deserve good chocolate and coffee.... they just do, uh huh.

I'll send out Christmas cards tomorrow.  I don't send many, so it's easy.

I'm curious why I don't work out the way I used to when I KNOW it helps regulate chemistry, mood, hormones... everything.   I'm curious what has to shift for regular workouts to drop back in place and I believe they will drop in place. 

Lighter




Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 12, 2019, 01:19:02 PM
The last couple of days have been interesting.  I've felt very grounded and steady, while noticing things pop up that might usually start an anxious spiral.

I notice them, and let them go by. 

Here's what's interesting about it....
If I notice the feeling of loss come up.... like the girls not being little any more, or my not being in tip top shape..... it just got swept away in the feeling that.... it's still there.  It's still real, and with me, and inside...... it's not gone,  never left, is still here  inside, safe, and real and the feelings turned into warmth, and comfort. 

The second thing I notice is there's a bit of a bubble keeping the jugments of others OUT, which cerainly hasn't always been the case. 

It feels like believing I'm whole enough, good enough, worthy just as I am.... and always have been.   It's like T said..... it's like I've remembered it, not created it, bc it was always there.   

I also believe the universe is on my side... 100% I believe that, and flow seems to be a symptom of that, IME. 

I began putting trash and recycling together...  and I didn't fret over it, or put it off, I started exactly when I felt it was right, and put the recycling into the hands of the guys picking it up... right on time.  Smiles, no rushing.... he was happy. I was happy.   He said he'd wait if I had more.  I didn't run....  I just met him in the exact right moment, then trash pick up came about an hour later, 3 or 4 minutes after  putting the last of the fridge clean out in.

In that moment I noted I can ONLY DO ONE THING in a moment,  and I truly have the choice as to what that thing will be.

Procrastination is familiar to me, but I didn't choose that today.   

I experienced flow, and ease, and noted the comfort, and neutral or positive somatic experiences of the last 2 days.... just watched them go by, met the girls in the kitchen to jump in and chat or help with whatever they were doing there.  I scoop up baby girl Pug (BGP) and take her outside with me without thinking about it... it's JOYFUL, and I'm happy to do it. 

I don't have any resentments or judgment about oldest dd19 caring for BGP, I'm happy to have what I have with BGP.  Oldest dd19 and I get along very well lately.  She has less resistance to me..... and things are easy, and good right now.  I note that.  I'm present with the feelings.  I enjoy them.

Being present is different.  It's where the elusive flow lives, IME.  It's not a mystery now. It seems simple, and I think it is. 

I don't know why it's seemed pretty effortless the last 2 days, bc as I mentioned in earlier post... I took on 3 things I was absolutely dreading the weeks before, and they all fell into place with just a little effort and time on my part.  The procrastination was the painful part, IME. 

I'll write it again, I think some of that's viewing the universe as a friendly place,  and not a negative place I have to battle.  I don't see myself having to battle any longer.  I don't feel the resentments, and anger I used to watch come and go all the time, depending on what was going on around me.

This is new, and welcome, and feels so very fresh.

I think it lives inside me, along with all the negative and neutral possibilities..... and today I choose positive in all things.  It's not hard... it just is.

:nodding::.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on December 12, 2019, 04:44:11 PM
LIGHTER.

This is fanfreakingTASTIC.

I'm very happy for you.
(And inspired for me.)

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 13, 2019, 12:28:09 AM
Thanks,  Hops: )

When I think of getting to a more peaceful place, I think of getting my face off the glass. 

I was used to having my face pressed up against the glass for years, and I was used to getting my face OFF the glass. One thing I never understood, until recently........
there were two sides to the glass. 

I had choices... I could step back, and gain the same perspective I'd always had.....  or I could lean into the glass/pain/discomfort, drop judgment, and.....
fall through to awareness around where that pain started.   

I just had no idea, and it still feels like one of those tricks of SEEING a stereogram.   You can't see it from just anywhere...... focused just any way.  It takes practice, and I hope I'm not jinxing myself; )

The journey continues, and thanks for all the support, wisdom, and patience you've shared with me and the board through the years, ((Hops.)) 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on December 15, 2019, 06:15:38 AM
Thanks,  Hops: )

When I think of getting to a more peaceful place, I think of getting my face off the glass. 

I was used to having my face pressed up against the glass for years, and I was used to getting my face OFF the glass. One thing I never understood, until recently........
there were two sides to the glass. 

I had choices... I could step back, and gain the same perspective I'd always had.....  or I could lean into the glass/pain/discomfort, drop judgment, and.....
fall through to awareness around where that pain started.   

I just had no idea, and it still feels like one of those tricks of SEEING a stereogram.   You can't see it from just anywhere...... focused just any way.  It takes practice, and I hope I'm not jinxing myself; )

The journey continues, and thanks for all the support, wisdom, and patience you've shared with me and the board through the years, ((Hops.)) 

Lighter

Face pressed against the glass is a good way to describe it, Lighter, and I am hoping to get to a point where I can just do something without two dozen other things going on in my brain and body while I do it.  Keep pushing forward is the key, I think.  Try things, see what helps, what doesn't, put things down, pick other things up.

I have a friend who does Reiki.  She tried it on me and nothing happened and I thought it was all nonsense.  Then about an hour later the headache I'd had for three days just vanished in an instant.  It was odd - in a nice way :) x
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on December 15, 2019, 12:01:20 PM
"Odd in a nice way" is a perfect description of Reiki!

I think it has "Lighter" written all over it...

Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 16, 2019, 05:58:59 PM
Now I REALLY want to experience Reiki.   I didn't see T last week.  Forgot she had a retreat. I'm asking this week; )

Tupp, as I moved through my morning ablutions I thought about how my days are different since beginning T.

 I noticed zero emotional charge when I moved a file off my bed.  Normally, there's a chemical dump, and that sets the tone for the rest of my day.  I could have been touching a spoon or laundry... just nothing.  It was great!

Writing about it now,  I think of it as shuffling a huge deck of cards, pulling out jokers as I go.... with the goal of removing all the jokers.  The jokers aren't good or bad. They're just not necessary for the games I want to play now.

I needed those jokers for games I used to pay.  They aren't good or bad.  They no longer serve. The jokers are unprocessed memories, sensations and emotions... stories I guess, and it's just time for them to go.

OK... I'm going to deliver rambutans to the boy recovering from leukemia... 3 flats, his favorites, yum!  This is a miracle, and we're so grateful he's responding to treatment in the best possible way: )

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on December 17, 2019, 01:39:57 AM
Now I REALLY want to experience Reiki.   I didn't see T last week.  Forgot she had a retreat. I'm asking this week; )

Tupp, as I moved through my morning ablutions I thought about how my days are different since beginning T.

 I noticed zero emotional charge when I moved a file off my bed.  Normally, there's a chemical dump, and that sets the tone for the rest of my day.  I could have been touching a spoon or laundry... just nothing.  It was great!

Writing about it now,  I think of it as shuffling a huge deck of cards, pulling out jokers as I go.... with the goal of removing all the jokers.  The jokers aren't good or bad. They're just not necessary for the games I want to play now.

I needed those jokers for games I used to pay.  They aren't good or bad.  They no longer serve. The jokers are unprocessed memories, sensations and emotions... stories I guess, and it's just time for them to go.

OK... I'm going to deliver rambutans to the boy recovering from leukemia... 3 flats, his favorites, yum!  This is a miracle, and we're so grateful he's responding to treatment in the best possible way: )

Lighter

That is really good news, Lighter, both about little man (what a lovely thing over Christmas.  I hope he really enjoys himself and that the treatments aren't making him too unwell to have fun) and about the file.  The Joker analogy is a good one, slinging out the nonsensical, unnecessary and just holding on to the things that are useful.  Really happy to read that xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 18, 2019, 10:19:27 AM
Hi, Tupp:

The little man was home from school, in discomfort from freshly installed port in his chest.  He didn't notice the rambutans, but he will; )

I didn't realize he's in for 3 years of chemo.... the father said it's WEEKLY chemo.  That's 3 hours on the road IF traffic is perfect then add the treatment and wait times.... just daunting.  I had no idea. 

I the meantime, he has a new puppy...  white with big black symmetrical inkspot marks that make him look like a wonderful Rorschach test... with one black spotted eye.  Just lovely, and he has 3 flats of rambutans under the Christmas tree.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 18, 2019, 03:31:55 PM

OK.   My appointment with T didn't go as planned today.  We were going to do work around the initial assault against me by ASDPD N stbx husband, the sound of oldest dd calling out for me, feeling I was going to die and the helplessness feeling of being at the mercy of someone I didn't recognize, and who was cutting off my air, then ripping my hair out with hatred in his eyes... feeling at the mercy of the legal system, the law enforcement agencies, my own attorneys, and the people AROUND me who could stand up for me, help protect me, but didn't in many cases, or actually worked to put me in prison.... shocking, but not at all upsetting to think about now. 

Wow. Not even a blip.

Turned out the calm I've been experiencing has become an enduring calm.  T said my primitive nervous system re set itself.  We discussed this from many angles... many different spiritual POVs, neuroscience POV.... lots of discussion around it.  Very interesting.  Everyone's journey will be their own.  Everyone will require pieces of a puzzle presented in the way they need to receive it.  This made profound sense to me. 

T said the changes are permanent, and wiring into my brain as we spoke.  My gray matter is changing.  The more I practice, the more insight will come..... she calls the insight "fruits and flowers."

I'm a believer, and then I brought up the two discussions I'd had with my Martial Arts instructor just before this amazing shift.

T said that yoga, and martial arts are 90% spiritual work, mindfulness, and being present, and 10% or less physical action.  She experiences breakthroughs during yoga, and isn't surprised to hear I'd practiced martial arts with single-minded purpose for many years. 

And then I told her about a dream I had about my Martial Arts instructor a day or two after the shift. 

I lived in a cool apartment... old moldings, high ceilings, neutral... restful lived in well loved spaces... and Martial Arts Instructor (F)  was visiting with me.  We were chatting, and enjoying each others company, like old times... very engaged as we'd been during our phone calls and I was so looking forward to a longer visit with him. 

I turned to youngest dd's bf and told him we needed to get to school.. chop chop.  He looked down, snurled up his face and whined he was very high... too high to go to school.  I noticed dd standing nearby, quiet..... not speaking... then I looked back at F to check back in, and let him know when I'd be back,  but he was already gone, and he'd taken his red suitcase, but left his red purse behind, which upset me very much. 

I grabbed the purse and set off after to him... to catch him, and give him back his purse but the staircase was full of people.  With my hand on the post, my feet raised up and floated.  I noticed this and released my grip on the post.... and continued rising up until I was up against the wall, near the ceiling with a view of everything around me.   It was nice, and i woke up having never caught MAI.

I looked up the floating bit at a site called Dream Bible: To dream of yourself floating in the air represents the feelings about yourself being incredible or doing noticeably incredible things. Feeling safe that people can't oust you or outsmart you. Living in stasis with a higher level of achievement.

THIS FEELS SO RIGHT FOR ME NOW! 

T talked about the color red, associated with the Root Chakra symbolizing energy, courage, action, physical and emotional survival.... passion.... strength... confidence... security, grounding spiritual effects, etc. 

She thought the red luggage was F's connectedness with spirituality and felt he'd gifted a female version to me, in the form of the red purse.  T felt I tried to give it back to him, but he wanted me to have it, and the floating was my acceptance and gratitude, spiritual/angle view of the world.  Certainly, F wasn't the sort to carry a  tailored 1950's bright red purse; )

OK, I have this family trip coming up.  T talked about things that might be difficult to handle, and everything came back to the practice.... breathwork.... noticing what's around me... the somatic sensations.

She invited me to pay attention to where I feel the ME part of myself lives.  In the head, the chest, outside me?  I promised I'd spend time tending to that.  I love stretching and working out with sun warmed muscles, so that will happen at the beach without thinking about it. There's a lot of flow going on for me right now.  Intuition is in charge. Sometimes I'm done with something before I notice it needs doing.  Sometimes I SEE something I've walked by 100 times I wouldn't have walked by 15 years ago.... it's just different, and I feel very alone in my head... meaning the judgments of others have evaporated, and there's peace and clarity and knowing left... it's marvelous: )

I told her I was surprised to wake up feeling different, when the shift happened.  I'd had no idea what I would experience as I set to working on feeling better.... 
honestly... what is it we think will happen as we work toward that kind of goal?  I guess to feel better in increments.  That's not how this happened, which is to say... that's how it happened when I was just coping.  There were increments, and accompanying periods of adjustment that wasn't always comfortable.  This just WAS..... a switch flipped to ON... I'm thinking in my sleep. No hangover or adjustment period.   Just noticing, and relief.

This is confusing for me, and I'm back to the face on the glass example for how it felt to cope and try to feel better... to work on feeling better... to practice mindfulness as a coping strategy, and thinking about relieving stress in the brain so the brain could finish processing things that were really stuck, keeping me focused on the trauma stuff.... like a parade of toddler need swirling around my head all day, every day. Once that processed, it freed up processing space for what's here, in front of me.  I practiced, and felt better, but it came and went. 

I didn't notice the shift.  I noticed feeling better in her office while we practiced and worked together bc we'd put numbers on the sensations all during the practice.  It was just practice, and I'm still practicing, but something came of the practice that wasn't there, and I think I'm just happily surprised that what I'd been told would happen HAPPENED. 

I told her it felt like I passed through the glass... like a membrane I didn't realize I could pass through.... it was a surprise.   Another surprise.  POV from the side of the glass where I was coping, and slogging along with my brain bogged down.  The side of the glass where I could SEE the truth of what was, and is.... without the emotional toddlers clanging for attention.  Tending to them meant I could pass through the glass... like a cell wall.... bc everything that needed to align... aligned.  Just like in a cell..... so many things have to happen for a synapse to take place.  It's a miracle every time, IMO.  That's how this feels.
 
She said I'd been diligently pulling weeds in my garden, and found a flower had grown in place of the weeds.  I wish I'd had some idea what it was I was striving for.  I feel like I missed something then find myself sitting in the middle of it.   

She explained the knowing... the enlightenment.... is sort of like doing martial arts.  You go straight to the truth.   The Buddha knew about atoms and cells before science could prove they existed... he could just see that truth in the body. 
Cut.
That's what enlightenment is..... cutting straight to the truth.... not messing with the difficult emotions around setting boundaries, or judgment,  or thoughts about the past or future..... we just go straight to what is, and leave out what is not.  Life is simpler with this POV.

She said that the work takes place when we feel safe enough and at some point the scales tipped, and my brain re set itself in a millisecond.  No whistles or bells, or band playing. 

I'm noticing my body hasn't quite "remembered" what it once knew.  I experience some muscle memory that includes moving too fast, in old hurried ways I'm surprised to notice.

  Sometimes I notice a little flutter in my chest, the beginnings of old anxiety, but then it stops.  Like it's an old pathway remembering it used to be online, then remembering it's not anymore.  Or like it tries to start up, but doesn't have the energy to.  T said that's normal, and the mind heals itself.  It will stop eventually. 

I'll just keep practicing, being mindful, and picturing energetic cords cut with a sword... I do that every day... many times a day. Front,  back, top and bottom.  I believe; )

That's my update, and I'll probably rewrite this later.  I admire Hops' skill with the written word at times like this.

Lighter   
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 19, 2019, 06:03:49 PM

I have had interesting chats with the acupuncturist guy about all these sorts of things and I do think some people's brains are just wired differently and function better in different ways.  We were talking about that thing about acceptance - just accepting the situation you're in and not fighting against it.  But I immediately think of all the injustice and inequality that I think we should fight hard not to accept and to just go with.  So for me I kind of take what I want from these things now and leave the bits that don't work for me.  At the minute I'm finding it easier to cope with stress because I can channel my anger or frustration or whatever into moving and/or setting up some work from home.  I have another goal to work towards, which helps me cope.  Before I felt like whatever I did drilled me deeper into the pit and if I focused on that I just fell in a bit more.  So I have no idea why it helps some people and not others :)  But just wanted you to know you're not the only one it doesn't work miracles for :)  Lol xx

About meditation "not working" for some.  I tried it years ago.
 I couldn't DO it.

 I did it with this new T, and it was imperfect, handholding, frustration..... but it moved into other things... unexpected things, though I'd have difficulty saying what exactly I expected.

 Those things didn't necessarily feel great, bc inevitably I would backslide, and feel as though I HAD THE TOOLS, but still failed, which honestly.... was worse than not being able to feel better all on my own, IME.  Oh sweet, sweet compassion, and nonjudgmental focus... you're so very elusive.  With practice.... less and less elusive, IME. 

And the places we get trapped... the spiraling... the sinking deeper unable to get out of the hole..... THAT'S A PHYSICAL THING.  That's not about how we're coping, or managing our emotions.... it's about our biology, and pathways... blood and energy.... fat and reactivity.  Heavily traveled pathways are covered in fat... they're lightening fast.... we can't catch things... we have to dig our way out, and that's a process.  Different for everyone, but now I see... possible.  It's possible.

And this isn't about learning to mitigate and heal and feel better..... it's altogether different in experience, which was a huge surprise for me. 

It's finding a way to feel safe long enough to relieve tension in our brains so our brains can get on with what they're great at.... processing.  The brain wants to process. It's easy, and amazing, and happens without thought IF we can remove the blocks.... the stuck, unprocessed emotions and sensations living INSIDE our brains, ambushing us when triggered, and that's just a fact as I've experienced it.

If I looked at all the meditation I've done, which isn't a lot to be frank, I can honestly say I don't feel like I've meditated in the way I thought it had to be done to BE meditation.  I haven't attended seminars, Hops, but meditation isn't what I thought it was going to be.  My expectations were off.  My belief system became very negative around it, and I was triggered by the very word "meditation."  That's where I was when I began seeing this T.  I forgot about that.  Hmph. I asked her not to use the word, and so sometimes I don't know exactly what she calls what while we're doing it. She hasn't used that word since the day I met her.  She had to tiptoe around my belief, and negativity, and resistance, and tiptoe she did.  She's really amazing at it, and I trust her 100%.... even if she says something that used to rub against my biases.... I trust.  I let it be.  I embrace, and fearlessly lean in.... I don't care what I look like, or how I sound... well... I have a very difficult time just crying... I do stuff that down, still, but.... I'm leaning hard, and picking up bits and pieces as I go.  Trying to internalize, and feeling so much better makes it easier.   I see solutions, and creativity invites expanded possibilities. 

I'm not great at sitting down and going through specific meditations on my own, which was homework.   I sort of... don't.  I tried.  I never warmed to anything in particular and made it habit though.  What I DO is remember to breathe correctly, and notice what's going on inside.  I picture a sword cutting energetic cords daily, and I try to remember exactly what the difference IS between this amazing KNOWING/REMEMBERING the truth, and not knowing/remembering the truth.

It wasn't a gradual thing... it was working on paperwork with the T and BAM, paperwork wasn't emotionally charged anymore. 

It wasn't walking around feeling in the zone all the time so much as working on breathe and meditation in the T's office, with particular focus on my peripheral vision, then BAM.  All a sudden I noticed peripheral vision again after never realize it was gone.  I guess I felt better.... I can't remember how or what happened before.  I hope I wrote down enough to remember.

It's like peeling off layers of stress, and trauma.... giving my brain a break..... then moving into trust.  And the ON OFF switch flipped.  Whatever that really is.... the primitive brain resetting.  I can feel that truth.  Reducing stress, specifically, in areas with the most stress... one by one.  It's a job, not "practicing meditation."  It's more than that, at least for me.

It's like peeling an old bandaid off a wound that's had plenty of time to heal, but hasn't bc there's still a splinter or piece of metal or bone shard in there wiggling around.... creating inflammation, and pain, and infection.... asking for attention.  The brain and body send signals.  We treat them like THE problem, and we treat those symptoms.... doctors give us pills, and tonics.... exercises, and surgeries.  We treat the symptoms and fail to hear the message.  We fail to identify the cause, and tend to it, IME.

With the EMDR, or whatever is working for you or me... I've started re reading this thread, and I honestly don't remember much of what happened in the T's office. 

So you/we breathe on our own, pat shoulders like soothing a baby, or do EMDR with a T, or whatever makes sense and we do it until it stops making sense or we lose faith or we get bored, or we feel better. 

As specific stress falls away... healed... gone... processed and filed away in historic files where they should have gone years ago..... the brain starts REMEMBERING how to process again.  The primitive brain resets itself.... sort of like magic.  SWITCHES ON, or OVER whatever it needed to do... it does.  Those pathways, long shut down, ARE PROCESSING again.  The switch has been thrown. 

The processing is possible bc of the work... outside the office and in the office.... I can't tell you how much soothing and calming we practiced in the office with the somatic experience...... it's a physical action.... finding the stress, engaging it, inviting it to be present and we're present with it.... calming it, reducing it..... relieving stress in the brain and body.... it's not just meditating, or feeling better bc of meditation, IME.

There's identifying a wound through a story.
Lifting the bandaid to identify the wound's size, shape, depth, pain/pressure is it burning, or throbbing, where exactly is it?  We expand our vision out and notice colors and shapes, then peripherally what's there.... and we drop the story, and go back into the somatic experience... exactly what do we feel?  Where? WHat does it feel like?  Put a number on it.  Work on with breathing or EMDR (which we can do for ourselves, by ourselves) and we check to see if it's improving.  If so, we continue on.  Where does it feel?  How?  Put a number on it.  Breathe or do EMDR around it until there's no more improvement or we have a 0 around the sensations.

I'm writing this out bc I'm having a hard time remembering what to do.  I'm very calm, but I'll be stressed at some point very soon, and I want to have a plan.  I re-read this thread to remember what worked... what worked best..... I can honestly say that "meditation" isn't what I've been DOING recently.  Not as I understand meditation, but I do remember to breathe mindfully daily... just not the way I believe most people "practice."  And that's OK.  I just don't want anyone to confuse what SHOULD happen with what can or might or will or could happen, bc I don't think it's what we expect it to be, IME. And maybe giving up all expectations is better?  I can honestly say I focused so hard on the DOING, I might have given up expectations... in a way the practice reminds me very much of martial arts.... learning how to drop what I WANT, and pick up what is being offered... something completely outside my comfort zone. New.  Unknown to me.  Maybe, just maybe, my martial arts background helped move this process more quickly than if I didn't have that muscle memory,brain body experience.   

I tried "meditation" years ago, and bc I didn't know how to apply it, or what I was specifically trying to achieve..... I never shifted OUT of my survival brain... I was living in my amygdala, and that's where I sat for years.  I moved past that with the martial arts, and I applied myself hours every week.... sometimes 10 hours a week.... always 6 minimum, with practice at home. 

Meditation didn't fail me.  I just didn't have the direction I had with martial arts... the instruction, and practice and hours invested.   

My inability to understand it, and incorporate what it offered IN ORDER TO shift into non judgmental focus....to notice what was going on INSIDE my body.... exactly.  Name it. Put my hands on it.  Put story on the shelf, and breathe INTO the feelings.... put a number on it..... breathe through it some more... focused gently.... focused completely..... breathing..... check it again for a number.

Was missing.

THESE steps aren't what I thought of as meditation.  This is activity.  This is a physical enjoinment of brain and body..... of intention and action.... of DOING, and not doing... of dropping and picking up..... mindfully..... dropping judgment.. picking up ONLY the sensations, and focusing on them solely.... and there are so many parts and pieces to this.  This is not sitting down, and shutting up, which was the name of the book F gave me to read on learning to meditate.  Written by a punk rock monk... I think.  NOT what I needed at that time.

Shifting, when we CAN'T FOCUS on ANYTHING but the distress and frustration of failure.....
to recognize it, not fall deeper into the pit, but CHOOSE something else....
to shift to ONE PLACE IN THE BODY where we feel at ease. I couldn't remember to do that when I was spiraling, on my own. 
Choosing to focus where there's no stress in the body... on a leg muscle?  Is it the feet?  The shins? FOCUS on THAT, with mindful breathing, and if we can't DO THAT we shift to DOING something physical to give the survival brain SOMETHING TO DO with all those chemicals it's shooting, and barfing up.... in the moment bc it believes we're not going to be OK if we aren't acting to save ourselves... we're IN DANGER and that's true for our brain..... we're THERE, in danger. 

So we do, and do and do... push on walls, or walk backwards around a trashcan and breathe and DO DO DO, and breathe, then check the distress again.  IS it better?  By how much?  Do we need to push some more?  No?  How about patting the shoulders, like soothing a baby, one at a time... while breathing?

THIS isn't what I always pictured meditation BEING....  THIS isn't my idea of what meditation was supposed TO BE in any way.  I think it's misleading, and difficult to explain all at once.  Maybe impossible to explain.   

It's more than just meditation.  It's more, and it's many moving parts, and things fit together, things come apart, and assist and flow....  it wasn't fair to expect myself to move myself OUT of the primitive nervous system on my own, or with a bit of sitting and breathing, bc it wasn't going to happen that way FOR ME.  I think it does happen for others, but it wasn't my way, and it's apparently not your way, Tupp and Hops. 

I'm here to say there's so much more than sitting and breathing, and working through meditations in our heads. There's so much out there.... we can tailor it or ask for help discovering what might work best for us.  EMDR... can't say enough good things about it.  Memory Reconsolidation (MR) AMAZING stuff.  Real, and viscerally effective.... SWITCH ON... SWITCH OFF.  Lasting relief.     

It's penetrating the membrane, and SEEING the truth... without everyone else's stuff getting in the way.  It's new sight, evaporated judgments and belief systems installed years ago..... by self and others.... just POOF.  Gone. 

It's a switch ON or OFF.

I have a splendid pork roast in the oven smelling of caramelized garlic, onions, Cuban spices and roasting meat..... sorry Hops... but it's amazing.   Rice and beans, and thin sliced sweet onions covered in fresh lemon juice and oregano, waiting for a hot oil bath to set them sizzling... still crunchy but bursting with lemon flavor.  SO good. 

I have a better understanding of my homework... figuring out and familiarizing myself completely with the things that work for me... have worked, then pulling them out of my toolbox when I'm stressed... consistently..... just for ease of use, and economy of motion, bc that's smart, and work well worth the time.

I still feel like I'm cheating... not practicing the meditations as the T would have loved to have me practice them.  I do what I remember, is what happens. I'm going to expand my memories, and really put some of these practices in place.  Right now they all run together, or I forget important things, or forget entire practices, and I can change that.



What I CAN do is improve my ability to respond.  A simple truth.  So satisfying to write this all out, and come to this sentence.



I'm smiling happily as I write this..... I feel empowered, and.... I feel enough.

::nodding::. 

Lighter


Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on December 20, 2019, 03:56:18 AM
Hi, Tupp:

The little man was home from school, in discomfort from freshly installed port in his chest.  He didn't notice the rambutans, but he will; )

I didn't realize he's in for 3 years of chemo.... the father said it's WEEKLY chemo.  That's 3 hours on the road IF traffic is perfect then add the treatment and wait times.... just daunting.  I had no idea. 

I the meantime, he has a new puppy...  white with big black symmetrical inkspot marks that make him look like a wonderful Rorschach test... with one black spotted eye.  Just lovely, and he has 3 flats of rambutans under the Christmas tree.

Lighter

Oh, Lighter, a puppy!  Nothing better to cheer you up than a puppy :)  3 years is a horribly long time but I'm glad he's getting along with it and I hope that they can all get through it as best they can.  Hard times but also a situation that you just can't avoid or not do.  Very difficult.  I'm sure he'll love the rambutans :)  I'll reply to your other posts a bit later, there was so much in them I want to absorb it all some more and think - the description of what your ex did to you is so vivid and makes me want to jump in between him and you.  Can only offer a big cyber hug ((((((((((((((((((((Lighter )))))))))))))))))))))))))))) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 21, 2019, 02:28:59 PM
Yup, a puppy makes life better, Tupp.

It's a sweet and sour week, bc my Belgian Malinois is getting a new home with 6 others Malinois on a farm.... I think.  Either than or he's going to a law enforcement officer who'll live, train and work with him every day, which is good too. They're trying to decide that now.

It was time.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 30, 2019, 01:04:58 AM
One step back and two steps forward? I guess we would like to think life is going to get easier if we master it, could be there is no such thing.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 16, 2020, 08:02:11 PM
Last 2 T appts were very meh.  I wasn't sure why, but today was the first day I've felt OK since the island. 

Sister has flu now and said it came with debilitating depression.  I so identify with that as the last of my cough is about done... I think it took the low feelings with it.
   
I worked in the house doing floors, cleaning cabinet doors, fridge interior, laundry, stripping beds and making carrot ginger soup with carrots so big and amazing they look like they could be from the movie SPIRITED AWAY or the PETER RABBIT stories.   

I roasted beets (beautiful) and steamed broccoli.  Really love broccoli cooked that way.  Craving it in soup. 

The moss is loving the rain... just an amazing spring green, all of it. 

I've been limping along, getting to mechanic, putting Christmas lights away, filling house with meals we can eat for days while waiting for the flu to release it's grip.

Found a T for dd.  We've been shopping them, and this is number 5. 
::crossing fingers::.

Lighter


 





Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on January 17, 2020, 05:58:19 AM
Last 2 T appts were very meh.  I wasn't sure why, but today was the first day I've felt OK since the island. 

Sister has flu now and said it came with debilitating depression.  I so identify with that as the last of my cough is about done... I think it took the low feelings with it.
   
I worked in the house doing floors, cleaning cabinet doors, fridge interior, laundry, stripping beds and making carrot ginger soup with carrots so big and amazing they look like they could be from the movie SPIRITED AWAY or the PETER RABBIT stories.   

I roasted beets (beautiful) and steamed broccoli.  Really love broccoli cooked that way.  Craving it in soup. 

The moss is loving the rain... just an amazing spring green, all of it. 

I've been limping along, getting to mechanic, putting Christmas lights away, filling house with meals we can eat for days while waiting for the flu to release it's grip.

Found a T for dd.  We've been shopping them, and this is number 5. 
::crossing fingers::.

Lighter

Very busy, Lighter!  As always, the moss sounds stunning :) Do you think you're just in a bit of a lull with T at the moment?  As in, quite a lot of work done, body shut down a bit from being unwell, just not much to come up and work with right now?

Glad you've found a T for D :)  Is the island work all finished now, or do you still have more to get done there?  Glad the cough is abating :) xx xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 17, 2020, 11:57:44 AM
Hi, Tupp:

I think I was flattened by the flu.... emotionally and physically.  Three appointments ago I had an amazing experience with T as I did every appointment before that.   

I'm feeling better now. 

The island is about ready EXCEPT it appears I have to come up with another housekeeper and possibly caretaker/security guy.  I'm not worried..... will change out locks, and get new shutter locks.  There's a problem with prior caretaker and housekeeper. Not sure exactly what it is, but it's a thing.  We have another housekeeper lined up.  It won't be hard to put another person in the guest house while we're renovating.  Maybe that person can paint, and do upgrades.  Will see.

Renovating the shed.... for a single person.... is now in discussions as is the seawall.

To end on a high note.... the cottage interior feeeeeels super homey and inviting. very nice to be in.  Brother contemplating bringing a full size washer and dryer this trip.  We have 2 bikes now.... will probably bring more. 

I'm so glad you're having a positive experience with your T, Tupp.  That feels really good to read: )

Lighter



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on January 17, 2020, 12:14:00 PM
Hope you feel better fast, Lighter.

I love the idea of you going to a shelter and choosing a mutt who really needs you.

There's nothing like watching and aiding the emotional recovery of a being who was neglected or abused...and seeing how a dog will seize that chance and leap to it. It's just AMAZING, how rich and joyful and deep (and goofy, and present) those dogs are. Every tale you've heard of the actual gratitude of rescued dogs is true, leading to a deeper bond...(I'm sure you already know).

Just a fantasy but if you do it, walk us along!

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 18, 2020, 12:10:38 PM
This flu has kicked my butt.  What I used to call nerve bumps popped up on inside of fingers and outside of elbows.  I didn't notice them until the worst of the symptoms passed and then they were worse than anything I'd dealt with .  Even the bottom of my feet and tops of toes, where they never showed before.  Like my nerves are trying to escape my body... so sensitive and painful.   I always have ONE on my left palm.  They're like indicators of stress/inflammation in my body.

Today they're about all gone and they were bumps on top of bumps when the flue hit. 

I took a moment to check them out bc yesterday afternoon my left knee started sceaming right at the point I fell on it on the island.  Very odd bc it never hurt like that before.  Ever.   The bone felt sturdy.  The knee scuffed but sound.  Yesterday it felt like it wanted to explode and just ached and ached for no reason at all.... the flu.  12 hours later it's almost normal again.  Just some white cells going nuts, creating inflammation at a stressed point in my body.... insidious this virus is.
I didn't understand why the flu is so harmful and difficult to get over.  It didn't take me this long to feel better after ACL replacement.  It's like the virus is on a search and destroy mission in a body.... seeking out weakness, old injuries and sensitivities.... then blowing them up with white blood cell inflammation. 

I now understand, for the first time, why flu season is a thing. 

It's not a fever, aches and pains for a few days, which is how I've always experienced it, with kids, myself, etc.  It's an assault on our immune system that can linger for weeks,  showing up over and over.  One day of feeling good, and DOIN seems to cost many days of more downtime, IME.   

Youngest dd's flu syptoms began in her stomach and is ending there... I hope it's over for her soon anyway.  You can see in her eyes she's still dealing with flu stress and inflammation at her weakest points.  Depression and weakness.   We're pretty sure it was the flu shot.  You read the shot is a good thing, then you read it's a hit or miss unlikely to be the right virus striking at that time thing.  Youngest dd always gets sick, whatever's going around she gets it.  Oldest dd has much stronger immune system.

I've been practicing mindfulness again.  It didn't cross my mind for a week.  At all.  It almost felt like I had no vision... like I had to feel my way around, bc vision was compromised.  The flu sucks.  I plan on pulling weeds then writing a bit while in the yard.

Dogs are lovely, Hops.   Neighbor (lost his dog around Christmas) has a new puppy, rescued... almost took the sister too, but another family had the same idea.  They each ended up with the puppy they had their hands during the mutual face off....
"we want both puppies." Lots of love for little spirits in need... so nice.  These look like German Feist dogs, whatever their dna is.... black and white.  Little white socks.  Adorable puppy spirit in the neighborhood again.

Lighter












Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on January 18, 2020, 03:20:21 PM
Dyshidrosis?

Might be worth a Google.

So sorry you're coping with whatever this is;
it sounds maddening and exhausting.

Hope it passes fast.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on January 19, 2020, 08:34:53 AM
I positively despise viruses and bacteria Lighter. Nasty evil invisible spirits, aye.

Perhaps a gentle detox is in order?

It's "wintering" here. We didn't get much snow or ice from the system that swung north, but it's very cold for a week or so now. Lots of woodstove work. And food... oh my... I swear I could eat constantly all day when the wind blows like this and it's cold.

BUT I already got my medicinal herb seeds for this seasons planting. I've got some starting supplies to replace coz I like starting perennials in bigger pots and letting them get some good roots & size before transplanting. I ditched a lot of that when I moved. These are challenging plants: valerian, baikal skullcap, centaury, etc.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 22, 2020, 11:08:05 AM
Yikes.... I watched a little of that show you like while I was ill.... Highlander?  Is that it?

 Now I'm picturing you as the "healer" with your herbs.

What kind of gentle cleanse are you thinking?

I was thinking zeolites and restricting g/s/d..... most processed carbs..... I'm not doing so well with sugar and dairy at the moment.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on January 22, 2020, 04:58:09 PM
Ah... Outlander. Jamie & Claire.

LOL... nope, I'm not quite at that level Lighter. I have been interested & studying (periodically) for many many years. But until one can grow, harvest & process and use one's self... you are still just experimenting. That said, I've found a lot of sources for bulk herbs or pre-made tinctures.

I would think maybe a mini-fast with detoxing herbal tea? Say 12 hr fast.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 23, 2020, 07:44:17 PM
I'm looking through teas at the store...... what's in the tea box....
putting hands on milk thistle supplement....
pulling zeolites....
I can do a 12 hour fast, Amber, yup yup yup.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 29, 2020, 04:21:50 PM
12 hour fast... feeling much better, THEN......   

I ate dairy and noticed my lungs began producing
so
much
mucus.

Well, I can't say I don't know better, bc I do.  Doing better, consistently, is another story. 

The T appointment went about the same way.

I took my observations about recent rabbit hole whack-a-mole, nose on a pebble thinking traps I've struggled with recently.   I felt calm.  Was surprised when tears came up once. 

T spoke about having one's nose on a pebble....
WE are the field.....

drawing back, becoming the spaciousness..... SEEING the pebble amonth many.... noticing what's in the field, besides pebbles, that give relief, calm, restore my place in time... take me out of my mind.....
then we did a walking meditation together in her tiny small office and it was lovely.
"Feet kissing the ground" she called it. 

Heel kisses the earth.... breathe and think "I have arrived."

Toe follows, slowly, kisses earth... breathe and think "I am home."

This was a relief while I enjoyed the feel of moving across the floor with purpose... not falling and catching myself as most walking goes. 

Things shifted when we thought about kissing the earth with heel and toes.... it felt like my happiest moments of prayer.  The feeling of expansiveness and joy..... I smiled without realizing I was smiling.... breathing..... stepping.... thinking of mantra..... we don't have to work out way OUT of our mind traps/old pathways.  We can make that shift in an instant. 

I also noticed I had more choice about recent whack-a-mole thinking mind traps.  I could have shifted out, I was aware while I did it, but felt the need to just go with it, pay attention to what came up and see where it went. 

T said she set aside a limited amount of time for this kind of "thinking."  Usually an hour in the afternoon, then went back to being present.  Typically she forgot to go down her scheduled rabbit hole... she was smiling ear to ear and looked so very pleased.

It was good I didn't feel defeated or like I'd failed or like i was doing things wrong, bc I just didn't feel that way. 

I'm really happy with the walking meditation. 
I like the idea of paying attention to the moments between thoughts.

Lighter

 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on January 30, 2020, 02:26:07 AM
This sounds great, Lighter.  Sailing through calmer waters.  I think just being able to manage life's ups and downs is what we're all aiming for.  We'll never be without bumps - but I like the idea of focusing on the moments in between xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 30, 2020, 12:00:26 PM
I was on the Parkway this morning having an emotional wrestle with yesterday's T appointment and my difficulty with letting go of being right.

Being right is a given.  It is or it isn't.  Others being wrong... that's something different.  Do I need them to be identified as WRONG?  Not sure, but I think the hangup is the people around them being harmed.  I think I needed them to be OK in order for me to feel I could be OK. 

Not sure that makes sense, but my nose was so securely glued to that 14 year old pebble... it was my default setting.... the mother I was FELT the injustice, the harm to my child, the ongoing will to harm me and both my girls is REAL and it shows up in the mail many times a year.  Pressing in, but it's an old pebble and I gain nothing by keeping my nose ON THAT ONE PEBBLE.

I don't gain anything by being right or knowing or someone else being wrong... I gain perspective and ability to SEE if I step back, become the field and see all the pebbles.  That one pebble, my nose was stuck to, is just another pebble, and yes, Tupp... there will always be pebbles (COWs crisis of the week.)

I'm noticing new COWs and pebbles are easier to see and step away from or just see clearly with distance... no struggle.

The old pebbles, however... are different.  I was looking at them with the same eyes I had 14 years ago.  Those eyes.... those stuck moments in time are done and over and accepting the path, over being right, just let things click, brain processed, pebble filed away in historic files..... now just another pebble in the field.

I hope that makes sense when I come back to read this.  I want to remember it the way it happened.  I was turning right.. about to leave the Parkway when I GOT IT, lungs fluttered and tremendous relief and peace landed on my entire being.  Joy and amazement.... it's confusing when you make an emotiona connection, then something physical pops up and splits your focus.

My T talks about physically having WOW moments, usually during yoga, or at silent retreats.  I partake in neither, and I've had some moments, but they aren't frequent... I doubt they'll be the norm..... I sometimes worry they won't happen again.

When things like this happen.... it feels similar to the memory reconsolidation sessions.  It's like stepping through an energy field, to the other side.  Everything changes then you adjust.  Very quickly it becomes your norm and you forget what the normal used to feel like very quickly.  At least that's how it is for me... maybe you start doubting what a huge change it was.  You doubt the affect, but they've all be profound and I don't want to forget.

I need to stop doubting.  Start leaning into radical acceptance, which truly has been the struggle, or part of it recently.

Dropping into the spiral that IS primitive brain, is like dropping into a hole.  In many ways, IME.  I've done it enough while WATCHING myselof do it, to understand it's not the way I want to live.  I want to be in the light, in the open, SEEING everything around me now... not seeing what was or what might be. 

As right as anyone can be.... they're better off accepting what is NOW and getting on with doing what they can in this moment, then releasing expectation and I've said that a lot... I've seen posts I've written  in the past... when I didn't quite understand the why and how if IT.  What is gained and what is lost.  How it changes us.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on January 31, 2020, 05:40:40 AM
I think the difficulty is when someone vulnerable is being harmed, Lighter, like your kids.  People do harm children, in many different (and often subtle) ways, and I think when you've been through your own growth and dealt with your own childhood problems you are much more aware of it.  Other people's influence - of a negative nature - in a child's life is not okay, in my book.  I have kept my son away from many people because I don't share their approach to life.  So I understand the who's wrong, who's right thing.  People have different ideas.  Not beating a child is as much as some people feel protects them from abuse, others understand more how what you say and do can have an deep impact.  I'm glad you're working your way through it, watching, processing and just being in it.  I'm glad the T is there to guide you and hand hold when necessary.  And we are here for you too :) One T I used to have kept saying to me I shouldn't rely on validation from others as to what was okay - I needed to set my own limits.  I think that's a difficult one to get to.  But you are on the right path, I think, and I'm glad of that :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 31, 2020, 08:02:16 PM
This morning I checked myself....
zero struggle with right or wrong, fist in the air... sure justice is fair, called for and necessary NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW.

It passed.... it's not coming up anymore and it was in my face all the time for weeks... after Bettyanne posted about her mother taking her father's pain meds... I was OFF to the races and now....

now.....

the stuff that brought up for me.... is gone.  Done.  I don't want to write a word about it.  It's like my mind rejects the thought even as I remember what it was... and then it's gone again.  Truly... gone.

So, I feel young Lighter processed and cleared a stuck in the past angry trauma cycle, along with the resistance around it.  It felt very young.... very childlike.... a child having a tantrum.  Refusing or unable to listen to reason, or listening but stuck in survival brain and unable to access higher brain to calm, refocus, relieve the stress so higher thinking came online then BAM!  Processing happened, with that unexpected physical internal flapping.... and relief seemed to cover then move  through me.  And it stayed.

I check it every once in a while.  I notice the absence of what was a very familiar circular thought trap.  SO. Circular. 

Acceptance.... really understanding and believing.... being the field.... nose off the pebble. 

As I sit here I wonder if looking left then right then left then right then left then right, while stuck in that headspace hanging on to judgment and trying to find my way back to radical acceptance, which I felt I had before the island.... I wonder if the back and forth eye movement was helpful or THE thing that helped the shift take place.  I distincltly remember it happened as I was about to, then making that the turn.  I remember feeling confusion as I shifted petals and moved forward.   

I'll use my own hand with the EMDR more often.  For some reason, I associate it with the T and it's a happy feeling to remember... I can do this without the T.  For myself.  I'm very curious about how that works for me when I DO remember: ) 

Freedom and ease... that's how it feels.

And so this is a lesson in layers for me.  Older layers and newer layers and how dealing with one BIG thing can heal an entire line of traumas and wounded rabbit hole travels, one to another to another.  Just..... done. 

This is how it felt when I tried to recall emotionally supercharged memories during memory reconsolidation sessions.  They were difficult to recall.

This time, I really can't recall... and I'm trying.

::huge smile... looking around... waiting for it to change, really thinking about it::

NOTHING!

Yes!

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 31, 2020, 08:31:19 PM
The return of my peripheral vision seemed like a miracle, but not until I figured out it was gone, then restored.  MIRACLE.  At first it was scary and confusing to have it back without realizing it had gone away. 

I want to go back and see what happened just before, so I can begin drawing connections between connections if that makes sense.  I know T sessions included using peripheral vision while breathing and noticing what was around me, under me, beside me, above me.... and we spent a bit of time doing that before the EMDR began.  The EMDR hadn't yet begun... I think.

I wondered if this loss happened bc of the eye surgery/vision correction.  I muscle tested and the answer was NO.

I asked if it happened before the surgery and the answer was YES. 

This question came up....
was it because of cataracts and the answer was YES.

I think driving across States, often at night, with worried little children on my way to court stuff, while lacking much of the vision in my left eye, so distracted I didn't KNOW I couldn't see out of that eye..... locked my vision down while survival brain was constantly on then off on then off.   I don't have any feelings about that... just curiosity.

I'm not blaming the court stuff.  I'm not resentful in any way about it.  There's no desire to assign blame,  which is.... new.  To GET TO THE BOTTOM.. the truth of a matter. It's just poof... gone.

  I find myself leaning into curiosity, again, without judgment or any expectation.  Radical acceptance without any emotional reactivity other than happy to understand more about it.  I don't have any desire to learn FROM IT... for future use.  To discern the past.  I simply don't care to draw any conclusions about it. 

It's enough to be restored in this moment.  To know restoration is available to us all, in this moment. see it as a way to keep it from happening again.... there is no happening again. It's just... in this moment.... I have relief and it's EVERYTHING: )

Restoration in THIS moment.....is everything.

 Knowing we're all capable of restoration in this moment....
 is all there is.

Lighter




Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on January 31, 2020, 09:10:50 PM
Lighter, I really like this:

Quote
  I find myself leaning into curiosity, again, without judgment or any expectation.  Radical acceptance without any emotional reactivity other than happy to understand more about it.  I don't have any desire to learn FROM IT... for future use.  To discern the past.  I simply don't care to draw any conclusions about it.

It sounds as though you suddenly freed yourself from the rumination on justice that tortured you endlessly.

Kudos!


Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on February 04, 2020, 08:45:16 PM
Thanks, Hops.

I feel pretty good about noticing when I'm nose on the pebble (NOTP.) 

The more I do it, and am aware about it, the more I understand how it happens... the less fear and anxiety reflexively pop up.   

 The more I practice nonjudgmental focus and radical acceptance... the more it becomes a part of me.  Maybe making the shift gets easier... I assume it does. Just knowing how is a huge relief.  It makes me smile to think of it.

That doesn't mean I'm OK with the upsetting things in life... the egregiously harmful things.  It just means I'm not pulled to them, nose first, and stuck to them like a magnet anymore and that was always young Lighter's POV. IT IS young lighter's POV....  now.  She didn't have any skills or wisdom or insights or ability to SEE.  She was salty about things she had no control over.  Divorce sucks and kids get chewed up in it... it's the American way, esp when PDs are involved.  She needs to be heard and she needs some help.  IT's all around us/her/people we love,hate,wish better for with hindsight.  For every child... we wish that, but we don't need it to be true for us to be ok anymore.

It's a true letting go of something that felt so necessary and worthy for so so long

 Likely, anger will happen again and again.... this isn't one and done...  not with all the layers and that's OK. 

It's OK bc I feel better....
I don't open the garage door braced to see the world on fire anymore. 
I don't wake with dread in my chest and stomach.
I don't turn corners and find my fists out in front of me.

I SEE other people's POV.... have compassion for them without searching for it and that will come and go, I assume.

I used to mechanically manipulate myself.... I had to wonder what happened to that person to make them cut me off in traffic, be rude for no reason.. whatever it was... I had to work my way through it.  NOW... it just IS. It's a POV.  It's a lense that's alway in place, or is in place often... I'm getting used to having it in place.  It feels right.  I don't have to look for it or find it most of the time, and when I do.... I'll not panic or catastrophize or shift into past/future worry worry worry... or maybe I will, but I'll have the ability to SEE it and choose something else as my default setting.   


It feels like it's my default setting now..... and maybe it is.  One way or the other, I'm not going to be afraid or stay afraid rather. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on February 04, 2020, 09:05:52 PM
Today youngest dd missed school.  She's so sleepy. 

I made the choice to relax into it, not worry about another day missed and just go about my day.

Later dd got up, made herself a healthy chicken and spinach sautee, put on music and we danced and sang while cleaning the kitchen..... I had a breakfast salad.  It felt right.  We put away dishes together while contemplating something sweet.... I pulled out the Scharr GF puff pastry and we were off.  It would be little cinnamon rolls.  DD toasted pecans and put together a butter, cinnamon sugar/salt paste.  There's ONE bun left, and it's mine, btw.  Chewy with crunchy caramelized bottoms.  Amazing,  but the singing and dancing and laughter and talking about life and boys and stuff.... about how people SEE us and how we see them.... that's something I'll remember long after this day of missed school is forgotten.

I can't tell you how good it was to just let that worry go. I felt it as I did it.  The shift into gratitude and joy.... a choice. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on February 07, 2020, 01:12:46 PM
It's interesting to notice when I'm going from one distraction to another and missing the moments between thoughts.  Sometimes I smile and nod to myself... THAT's the thoughts and living in the future RIGHT THERE... and I pull it back to what's around me... think about my breathing.... the shapes and colores around me. 

Things feel less disjointed as I SEE the different pieces, become more familiar with them... internalize the process of noticing as habit and BEING.

I was pretty tense around planning and packing for boat trip to island coming up. 

And then I put it down.  It's going to be what it is... worry worry worry or no worrying.

It's better to be right HERE, right now.  There's pleasure and flow in doing what's in front of me, without worrying about what comes next, kwim?

That's where the joy is.

Right...
in....
THIS moment.

::breathing deeply::

Yup yup yup: )

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on February 07, 2020, 01:18:25 PM
It's interesting to notice when I'm going from one distraction to another and missing the moments between thoughts.  Sometimes I smile and nod to myself... THAT's the thoughts and living in the future RIGHT THERE... and I pull it back to what's around me... think about my breathing.... the shapes and colores around me. 

Things feel less disjointed as I SEE the different pieces, become more familiar with them... internalize the process of noticing as habit and BEING.

I was pretty tense around planning and packing for boat trip to island coming up. 

And then I put it down.  It's going to be what it is... worry worry worry or no worrying.

It's better to be right HERE, right now.  There's pleasure and flow in doing what's in front of me, without worrying about what comes next, kwim?

That's where the joy is.

Right...
in....
THIS moment.

::breathing deeply::

Yup yup yup: )

Lighter

That sounds really lovely, Lighter - just to be able to get on with it.  What I've often wondered with me (and I wonder if it's the same for you) is that I get tense whenever I have to organise or arrange anything (even just making packed lunches because we're going out, and making sure we catch the bus), and I wonder if it's because of all the times the prep was for a court hearing or a meeting that was scheduled, or paperwork that needed to be collated and sent off, or that worry of 'not doing something right' and it being used against you in some way.  It makes sense to me now that the deeper parts of your brain would associate any kind of planning with the scary planning that's gone before.  I'm really happy to read that it's getting easier to notice it and put it down again.  Will be so lovely to get to a point where it just doesn't happen :)  How long until the boat trip now? xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on February 08, 2020, 12:15:10 PM
Tupp:

I think partly it was the prep for court, but also just the hyper-vigilant state of BEING.  We had to live with every consequence, which was out of our control, so we became hyper-focused on everything we could control.   

T and I talked about food stuff at last appt.  It was't about what I thought it would be about, I'll say that.  More about control and feeling unworthy balled up together. 

While packing yesterday I notice that old familiar sense of urgency creep in.  I noticed it, banished it or didn't and went on.  Banishing is better.  Much better.  This moring has been pure joy in motion... just focused solely on ONE thing at a time, in the present... so nice.

I hope the new pathways, old business filed away in historic files (no longer creating the reactivity that USED to pop up in those areas) and being aware... able to choose something else (most of the time, not ALL the time) is working itself into a new way of BEING in the world.  Of SEEING and FEELING and, more than anything, of cutting out the chatter maybe.....
like I'm a firewall maybe?  At some point, maybe the firewall will simply be that open amazing field my T keeps referring to..... SO MUCH SPACE.... and there won't be much chatter or judgment to deal with at all.  And I'll BE that open spacious grassy field with a view of all the trees and pebbles and flowers without effort. 

Maybe there will be automatic acceptance and curiosity about EVERYTHING..... maybe?

Last night I was tired and about to sleep when I felt a little weird... not bad or good, just weird.  I thought.... Is this what my Dad had?  A little brain bleed and will it kill me or leave me recovering from a stroke?  It's hereditary.

The interesting part of that, from my perspective, is I wasn't worried or frightened or upset or wishing I'd done A, B and C that day.... I was just at peace with it and curious what would come next.  Truly.  Curious. No stomach flip at the thought. It was acceptance.... as default.  I guess.  It felt so much better than what I think of as my "normal" response. 

BTW, I think my brain was adjusting to 12-hour fasts AND small amounts of nutrition-dense foods....salads and bone broths with lots of water(sprinkled with a little pink salt) taken with anti-inflammatories. 
   

I've also been stretching ANYTIME I stand up and feel a bit stiff. I refuse to walk funny ONE MORE STEP.  I don't care where I am or who sees.... I STRETCH and that takes care of the stiffness. 

My left hip started creeking earlier this week... meaning I noticed some hinkiness with lifting left knee, which was a problem this time last year.  The stretches I got from the book PAIN FREE fixed it, more precisely so that's a no brainer.... DO THAT. 

I gave a copy  of the book to my neighbor whose overcoming catastrophic illness, and I'm curious to see how he feels about it and if he tries it. I'm not sure if he can read well or at all... he lost his good eye during the illness, had a stroke, lost a lot of skin and some ligaments.... other things, but he's a warrior and mostly engaged in Western medicine to gut his way back... had his colostomy reversed, but expressing huge interest in "alternative" ideas at this point, for the first time.  He's "awake" now.   

The book PAIN FREE by Pete Egoscue is a big deal with alternative med practitioners... .there's a clinic near my very active friend who suffers from cartilage loss (major loss) in his shoulders mostly, but knees too and he still... he plays high-level tennis, bikes 60 miles a week average, swims, works out with weights used to compete in Jujitsu... triathlons, monitors his sleep with his fit bit, etc.   He's been going to his ortho guy, getting death shots, discussing surgery while I've been saying GO TO THE EGOSCUE CLINIC and just see what they have to say!  You're lucky to live a half-hour away from them, GO! They'll align all the joints in your body and you can start building the cartilege back!  But noooo... he wouldn't do it until his orthopedic surgeon told him to, lol.   

Last week his ortho guy told him to try Egoscue. 

The active friend called to say he made that appt.  They asked him some interesting questions....
"Did he have a fear of snakes?"  I thought that was very interesting, yes yes yes. 
He went on..
"How did he feel about shrunken heads?" 

Well that tells you how friend really feels about it.  He's joking now, but honestly...  I think he's desperate and Western meds done all it can without making jello of the joints, which happens sometimes before folks get to Egoscue.

I have no feelings about it either way and I have to say... last year this time I would have felt resentment and frustration over his refusal to make that appointment a year ealier.   Now... 3 years after i began suggesting it.... he goes bc his Ortho told him to.   That he's done more damage and not begun treating the cause and building back those joints.....
feels.....
almost neutral for me.  There was a small shot of heat through my stomach, but I think it was almost my expectation I'd feel something negative.

I don't.

This is huge progress, IMO.   I used to worry about his joints, and fret and neeeed him to make that appointment.  That's changed. 

I'm limiting my radio/tv severely.  I notice I go to turn them on without thinking about it.  NOT turning them on refocuses me and helps dial in what's going on inside.  Things pop up.  I breathe mindfully often throughout the day, which IME is a game-changer.

The boat trip will be sometime in the next 5 days... depending on weather.  I'm not keen on loading the boat down then taking off in high seas, nope nope nope.  I'll get wet no matter what's going on, but want things to be relatively calm and sunny.  Brother said 20 foot waves are 40 feet tall.  DID I post that already?  That's super interesting to me.  I have a fascination with the ocean, some fear and lots of wonder.  My hope is to learn how to drive the boat, handle it in any conditions and make the trip myself.  I think I'll know pretty quickly if it's my thing or not. WOO HOO!  Deep sea fishing again soon!  Not much, and only Queen Trigger fish.... so much fun.   Better than lobster, SO GOOD.

The journey continues. 

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on February 09, 2020, 04:46:32 AM
Tupp:

I think partly it was the prep for court, but also just the hyper-vigilant state of BEING.  We had to live with every consequence, which was out of our control, so we became hyper-focused on everything we could control.   

Yes, I can identify with that, Lighter.  I think also, with parenting (from the perspective of your parenting being questioned), anything you do can be portrayed as a negative, depending on the perspective of someone else.  Take your daughter's recent sleepy day off.  Some would say that's good parenting - you're encouraging healthcare, appreciating the need to rest, allowing her to make her own choices (thereby encouraging independence in adulthood).  And so on.  Whereas some would argue she should have been forced in - a day off encourages laziness, a lack of responsibility, an attitude of not bothering, and so on.  And I think, when you know that anything you do can be used against you, if someone else wants to make it a negative, that hypervigilent state sees you covering all possible bases and it's exhausting.  Yes, I'm nodding!

T and I talked about food stuff at last appt.  It was't about what I thought it would be about, I'll say that.  More about control and feeling unworthy balled up together. 

Yes, that makes sense to me, too.  If I cook from scratch, I'm a good mum.  If I stick a pizza in the ove, I'm lazy and don't care about his health.  That's how I feel about myself so I can understand that it's about control and needing to be worthy.  Yes.

While packing yesterday I notice that old familiar sense of urgency creep in.  I noticed it, banished it or didn't and went on.  Banishing is better.  Much better.  This moring has been pure joy in motion... just focused solely on ONE thing at a time, in the present... so nice.

Yes, it almost feels like if you acknowledge it's there, it won't keep banging on the window asking to be let in?

I hope the new pathways, old business filed away in historic files (no longer creating the reactivity that USED to pop up in those areas) and being aware... able to choose something else (most of the time, not ALL the time) is working itself into a new way of BEING in the world.  Of SEEING and FEELING and, more than anything, of cutting out the chatter maybe.....
like I'm a firewall maybe?  At some point, maybe the firewall will simply be that open amazing field my T keeps referring to..... SO MUCH SPACE.... and there won't be much chatter or judgment to deal with at all.  And I'll BE that open spacious grassy field with a view of all the trees and pebbles and flowers without effort. 

Maybe there will be automatic acceptance and curiosity about EVERYTHING..... maybe?

Imagine being in that state almost all of the time, Lighter - so freeing and easy?  Oh, that's what's happening, is it?  How interesting!  And then just getting on with what you're doing.  Sounds almost yogi like?  How nice :)

Last night I was tired and about to sleep when I felt a little weird... not bad or good, just weird.  I thought.... Is this what my Dad had?  A little brain bleed and will it kill me or leave me recovering from a stroke?  It's hereditary.

The interesting part of that, from my perspective, is I wasn't worried or frightened or upset or wishing I'd done A, B and C that day.... I was just at peace with it and curious what would come next.  Truly.  Curious. No stomach flip at the thought. It was acceptance.... as default.  I guess.  It felt so much better than what I think of as my "normal" response. 

That is interesting, Lighter, although I'm glad it wasn't a stroke!  But yes, nicer to have a calm reaction than an immediately panicked one.

BTW, I think my brain was adjusting to 12-hour fasts AND small amounts of nutrition-dense foods....salads and bone broths with lots of water(sprinkled with a little pink salt) taken with anti-inflammatories. 
   
Yes, makes sense that might be shifting things around a little.

I've also been stretching ANYTIME I stand up and feel a bit stiff. I refuse to walk funny ONE MORE STEP.  I don't care where I am or who sees.... I STRETCH and that takes care of the stiffness. 

I've been doing the same!  How funny!  Stretching at the bus stop, stretching on the bus, at the cinema, in the queue at the shop.  We were in a shop during the week and son told me to stop dancing - I was bopping around to the music in the shop and hadn't noticed.  When we went to the arcade yesterday son was in once of those racing games, the one where you sit inside a car and race?  I sat in the passenger seat and read my book - wasn't thinking about what other people would think if they saw me.  Taking care of self - it's a new one, isn't it??!

My left hip started creeking earlier this week... meaning I noticed some hinkiness with lifting left knee, which was a problem this time last year.  The stretches I got from the book PAIN FREE fixed it, more precisely so that's a no brainer.... DO THAT. 

I gave a copy  of the book to my neighbor whose overcoming catastrophic illness, and I'm curious to see how he feels about it and if he tries it. I'm not sure if he can read well or at all... he lost his good eye during the illness, had a stroke, lost a lot of skin and some ligaments.... other things, but he's a warrior and mostly engaged in Western medicine to gut his way back... had his colostomy reversed, but expressing huge interest in "alternative" ideas at this point, for the first time.  He's "awake" now.   

The book PAIN FREE by Pete Egoscue is a big deal with alternative med practitioners... .there's a clinic near my very active friend who suffers from cartilage loss (major loss) in his shoulders mostly, but knees too and he still... he plays high-level tennis, bikes 60 miles a week average, swims, works out with weights used to compete in Jujitsu... triathlons, monitors his sleep with his fit bit, etc.   He's been going to his ortho guy, getting death shots, discussing surgery while I've been saying GO TO THE EGOSCUE CLINIC and just see what they have to say!  You're lucky to live a half-hour away from them, GO! They'll align all the joints in your body and you can start building the cartilege back!  But noooo... he wouldn't do it until his orthopedic surgeon told him to, lol.   

Last week his ortho guy told him to try Egoscue. 

The active friend called to say he made that appt.  They asked him some interesting questions....
"Did he have a fear of snakes?"  I thought that was very interesting, yes yes yes. 
He went on..
"How did he feel about shrunken heads?" 

Well that tells you how friend really feels about it.  He's joking now, but honestly...  I think he's desperate and Western meds done all it can without making jello of the joints, which happens sometimes before folks get to Egoscue.

I have no feelings about it either way and I have to say... last year this time I would have felt resentment and frustration over his refusal to make that appointment a year ealier.   Now... 3 years after i began suggesting it.... he goes bc his Ortho told him to.   That he's done more damage and not begun treating the cause and building back those joints.....
feels.....
almost neutral for me.  There was a small shot of heat through my stomach, but I think it was almost my expectation I'd feel something negative.

I don't.

This is huge progress, IMO.   I used to worry about his joints, and fret and neeeed him to make that appointment.  That's changed. 

This is ringing so many bells with m, Lighter, I have always felt so obliged to share anything that might help with anyone that might benefit from it and then feel dejected if they don't rush off to do it or if it doesn't work for them.  And I just haven't been this time.  I know loads of people who might well benefit from this EMDR - but I'm finding I'm thinking, they know I'm doing it, I'm talking about all the ways it's helping me.  If that pings a recognition in them that it might help them and they want to ask me about it, then I'm happy to talk.  But I feel like I want to save my energy for me now, and people who want to take it further themselves, rather than trying to rescue everyone around me.  We're putting on our own life jackets before fastening other people's now, maybe?

I'm limiting my radio/tv severely.  I notice I go to turn them on without thinking about it.  NOT turning them on refocuses me and helps dial in what's going on inside.  Things pop up.  I breathe mindfully often throughout the day, which IME is a game-changer.

I haven't been doing that but I might give it a go now you've mentioned it!

The boat trip will be sometime in the next 5 days... depending on weather.  I'm not keen on loading the boat down then taking off in high seas, nope nope nope.  I'll get wet no matter what's going on, but want things to be relatively calm and sunny.  Brother said 20 foot waves are 40 feet tall.  DID I post that already?  That's super interesting to me.  I have a fascination with the ocean, some fear and lots of wonder.  My hope is to learn how to drive the boat, handle it in any conditions and make the trip myself.  I think I'll know pretty quickly if it's my thing or not. WOO HOO!  Deep sea fishing again soon!  Not much, and only Queen Trigger fish.... so much fun.   Better than lobster, SO GOOD.

That, for me, is bravery in its highest form!  The thought of a forty foot wave has me getting as far away from any pool of water that may be anywhere near me :)  Lol, I will be glad for you to make the journey on calm seas, Lighter, with some fishing and beautiful sunsets to enjoy, no storms to cope with!  Do you ever get seasick?
The journey continues. 

Lighter

I am really glad all of this is unfolding for you, Lighter.  I shall keep a picture in my mind of you on a boat, with the sun on your back and a clear and calm ocean in front of you :)  It's a good metaphor for life, I think :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on February 09, 2020, 02:52:16 PM
Tupp:

I think partly it was the prep for court, but also just the hyper-vigilant state of BEING.  We had to live with every consequence, which was out of our control, so we became hyper-focused on everything we could control.   

Yes, I can identify with that, Lighter.  I think also, with parenting (from the perspective of your parenting being questioned), anything you do can be portrayed as a negative, depending on the perspective of someone else.  Take your daughter's recent sleepy day off.  Some would say that's good parenting - you're encouraging healthcare, appreciating the need to rest, allowing her to make her own choices (thereby encouraging independence in adulthood).  And so on.  Whereas some would argue she should have been forced in - a day off encourages laziness, a lack of responsibility, an attitude of not bothering, and so on.  And I think, when you know that anything you do can be used against you, if someone else wants to make it a negative, that hypervigilent state sees you covering all possible bases and it's exhausting.  Yes, I'm nodding!  Well those days of being judged and attacked are gone now, Tupp.  We're safe.
 Our nervous systems will shake it off when we feel safe.  We'll leave it behind, where it belongs.


T and I talked about food stuff at last appt.  It was't about what I thought it would be about, I'll say that.  More about control and feeling unworthy balled up together. 

Yes, that makes sense to me, too.  If I cook from scratch, I'm a good mum.  If I stick a pizza in the ove, I'm lazy and don't care about his health.  That's how I feel about myself so I can understand that it's about control and needing to be worthy.  Yes.

While packing yesterday I notice that old familiar sense of urgency creep in.  I noticed it, banished it or didn't and went on.  Banishing is better.  Much better.  This moring has been pure joy in motion... just focused solely on ONE thing at a time, in the present... so nice.

Yes, it almost feels like if you acknowledge it's there, it won't keep banging on the window asking to be let in?  Yup... we tend to it. Ask it what it has to say..... coming to our senses.... what do we feel?  Where is it in the body?  Breathe into.... calm it down and go back to the present moment. That's how I experience it lately.

I hope the new pathways, old business filed away in historic files (no longer creating the reactivity that USED to pop up in those areas) and being aware... able to choose something else (most of the time, not ALL the time) is working itself into a new way of BEING in the world.  Of SEEING and FEELING and, more than anything, of cutting out the chatter maybe.....
like I'm a firewall maybe?  At some point, maybe the firewall will simply be that open amazing field my T keeps referring to..... SO MUCH SPACE.... and there won't be much chatter or judgment to deal with at all.  And I'll BE that open spacious grassy field with a view of all the trees and pebbles and flowers without effort. 

Maybe there will be automatic acceptance and curiosity about EVERYTHING..... maybe?

Imagine being in that state almost all of the time, Lighter - so freeing and easy?  Oh, that's what's happening, is it? Why YES, TUPP.
 I think it is: )
How interesting!  And then just getting on with what you're doing.  Sounds almost yogi like?  How nice :) It's joy and energy and flow too!

Last night I was tired and about to sleep when I felt a little weird... not bad or good, just weird.  I thought.... Is this what my Dad had?  A little brain bleed and will it kill me or leave me recovering from a stroke?  It's hereditary.

The interesting part of that, from my perspective, is I wasn't worried or frightened or upset or wishing I'd done A, B and C that day.... I was just at peace with it and curious what would come next.  Truly.  Curious. No stomach flip at the thought. It was acceptance.... as default.  I guess.  It felt so much better than what I think of as my "normal" response. 

That is interesting, Lighter, although I'm glad it wasn't a stroke!  But yes, nicer to have a calm reaction than an immediately panicked one.

BTW, I think my brain was adjusting to 12-hour fasts AND small amounts of nutrition-dense foods....salads and bone broths with lots of water(sprinkled with a little pink salt) taken with anti-inflammatories. 
   
Yes, makes sense that might be shifting things around a little.

I've also been stretching ANYTIME I stand up and feel a bit stiff. I refuse to walk funny ONE MORE STEP.  I don't care where I am or who sees.... I STRETCH and that takes care of the stiffness. 

I've been doing the same!  How funny!  Stretching at the bus stop, stretching on the bus, at the cinema, in the queue at the shop.  We were in a shop during the week and son told me to stop dancing - I was bopping around to the music in the shop and hadn't noticed.  When we went to the arcade yesterday son was in once of those racing games, the one where you sit inside a car and race?  I sat in the passenger seat and read my book - wasn't thinking about what other people would think if they saw me.  Taking care of self - it's a new one, isn't it??!   Yes... it's new BUT it's also not something I'm thinking about, planning or trying to make happen.... this time.  It's just flow INTO doing without thoughts about anything else.  I don't think about helping others in those moments. It's complete immersion without distraction.  I know I'm a good person, but I'm a better person when I take care of myself first, consistently.... and that comes and goes... that state of being..... without thinking.   

My left hip started creeking earlier this week... meaning I noticed some hinkiness with lifting left knee, which was a problem this time last year.  The stretches I got from the book PAIN FREE fixed it, more precisely so that's a no brainer.... DO THAT. 

I gave a copy  of the book to my neighbor whose overcoming catastrophic illness, and I'm curious to see how he feels about it and if he tries it. I'm not sure if he can read well or at all... he lost his good eye during the illness, had a stroke, lost a lot of skin and some ligaments.... other things, but he's a warrior and mostly engaged in Western medicine to gut his way back... had his colostomy reversed, but expressing huge interest in "alternative" ideas at this point, for the first time.  He's "awake" now.   

The book PAIN FREE by Pete Egoscue is a big deal with alternative med practitioners... .there's a clinic near my very active friend who suffers from cartilage loss (major loss) in his shoulders mostly, but knees too and he still... he plays high-level tennis, bikes 60 miles a week average, swims, works out with weights used to compete in Jujitsu... triathlons, monitors his sleep with his fit bit, etc.   He's been going to his ortho guy, getting death shots, discussing surgery while I've been saying GO TO THE EGOSCUE CLINIC and just see what they have to say!  You're lucky to live a half-hour away from them, GO! They'll align all the joints in your body and you can start building the cartilege back!  But noooo... he wouldn't do it until his orthopedic surgeon told him to, lol.   

Last week his ortho guy told him to try Egoscue. 

The active friend called to say he made that appt.  They asked him some interesting questions....
"Did he have a fear of snakes?"  I thought that was very interesting, yes yes yes. 
He went on..
"How did he feel about shrunken heads?" 

Well that tells you how friend really feels about it.  He's joking now, but honestly...  I think he's desperate and Western meds done all it can without making jello of the joints, which happens sometimes before folks get to Egoscue.

I have no feelings about it either way and I have to say... last year this time I would have felt resentment and frustration over his refusal to make that appointment a year ealier.   Now... 3 years after i began suggesting it.... he goes bc his Ortho told him to.   That he's done more damage and not begun treating the cause and building back those joints.....
feels.....
almost neutral for me.  There was a small shot of heat through my stomach, but I think it was almost my expectation I'd feel something negative.

I don't.

This is huge progress, IMO.   I used to worry about his joints, and fret and neeeed him to make that appointment.  That's changed. 

This is ringing so many bells with m, Lighter, I have always felt so obliged to share anything that might help with anyone that might benefit from it and then feel dejected if they don't rush off to do it or if it doesn't work for them.  And I just haven't been this time.  I know loads of people who might well benefit from this EMDR - but I'm finding I'm thinking, they know I'm doing it, I'm talking about all the ways it's helping me.  If that pings a recognition in them that it might help them and they want to ask me about it, then I'm happy to talk.  But I feel like I want to save my energy for me now, and people who want to take it further themselves, rather than trying to rescue everyone around me.  We're putting on our own life jackets before fastening other people's now, maybe?

I'm limiting my radio/tv severely.  I notice I go to turn them on without thinking about it.  NOT turning them on refocuses me and helps dial in what's going on inside.  Things pop up.  I breathe mindfully often throughout the day, which IME is a game-changer.

I haven't been doing that but I might give it a go now you've mentioned it!OK... so the TV and radio are mostly OFF.  I listen to Eckhart Tolle.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi3d0Maed68&feature=youtu.be 
this was the one I listened to while cleaning the tub... I mean... I detailed that tub.
 It was wonderful.  I took apart the handle and bleached it.... took apart the drain and cleared/bleached it.  All down to the surfaces. 

Another HUGE thing about not having the TV on is.... I find I don't have the urge to eat so much.  TV on.... there's almost an underlying tension of need and desire to figure out something to eat..... and I mean constant.  TV OFF... I don't notice hunger or desire to put food in my mouth.  I find I'm enjoying that almost empty feeling again in my life while making mindful choices when I'm truly hungry. If the TV is off I'm likely to put on a pot of bone and veggie broth and have several cups through the day then a super large salad or two..... and I'm OK again.  But once that TV goes on....it feels like Pavlov's dogs.... IS there a message coming through the tv.... eat eat consume eat OR am I just used to a pattern of behaviors?  Not sure, but it's a no brainer to keep the TV off when I'm practicing mindful eating.
 I also like moving through my day when it's quiet, which is new.  I guess I could put a beloved familiar movie on, as background... I don't watch... it's just noise, but..... I'm curious what I'll find in the between the noise and thoughts. 

The boat trip will be sometime in the next 5 days... depending on weather.  I'm not keen on loading the boat down then taking off in high seas, nope nope nope.  I'll get wet no matter what's going on, but want things to be relatively calm and sunny.  Brother said 20 foot waves are 40 feet tall.  DID I post that already?  That's super interesting to me.  I have a fascination with the ocean, some fear and lots of wonder.  My hope is to learn how to drive the boat, handle it in any conditions and make the trip myself.  I think I'll know pretty quickly if it's my thing or not. WOO HOO!  Deep sea fishing again soon!  Not much, and only Queen Trigger fish.... so much fun.   Better than lobster, SO GOOD.

That, for me, is bravery in its highest form!  The thought of a forty foot wave has me getting as far away from any pool of water that may be anywhere near me :)  Lol, I will be glad for you to make the journey on calm seas, Lighter, with some fishing and beautiful sunsets to enjoy, no storms to cope with!  Do you ever get seasick?  I was a car sick kid, but I don't recall being seasick.  Reading in the car is a big NO NO.  Being on the boat, the last trip... no problem at all, thank God.
The journey continues. 

Lighter

I am really glad all of this is unfolding for you, Lighter.  I shall keep a picture in my mind of you on a boat, with the sun on your back and a clear and calm ocean in front of you :)  It's a good metaphor for life, I think :) xx
I think you're spot on with the metaphor, Tupp.   Also, we can view life and the sea and what comes next as friendly or unfriendly.  I I'm choosing friendly! 

Just finished sluffing skin, using pore cleaning strips, then will put on a little tanner and get out of the house.  I know I'll feel better with a little faux sun on my face..... I'm usually notin the frame of mind to care.  Today I'm just DOING without thinking.  No judgment or shoulds... just DOING.  It's nice, (((Tupp.))  Will keep you updated.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 04, 2020, 12:41:55 PM
I want to jot down stuff I've been noticing and working on.

Being heard is huge for me now. Speaking with a calm steady voice, not getting emotional and speaking so I feel heard.  Sometimes things come out harsh, in my father's words... with his delivery..... and it's like a blunt object falling.

That's not my way, but it's coming out when I can't find a way and get frustrated.  I see that.  I notice I don't want to do that.  I can speak without getting frustrated going forward....and that's about feeling entitled to be heard, have voice and  take care of myself.  It's my job.  I'm supposed to do that.  It's not up for debate or discussion. I get to do that.  People can listen or not, but there are consequences.

I get to state boundaries and consequences for overstepping.  I get to enforce those boundaries.  There's no question that I will or won't.  It's just how it is.   No fretting or worrying about it now.

I'll handle responses, protests and whining as it comes up and it will come up.  That's OK as long as I don't have to control what others believe or gain their understanding.  I don't need to. 

How I feel and what I understand is the important piece in this.


I feel closer to sibs for the effort to speak up.

I feel understood, like I'm in charge of getting my needs met and will get them met. 

I don't need others to understand or be OK.  I want them to be OK, of course, but that doesn't determine my mental stability. 

I'm responding (more often) and reacting less.  It takes no getting used to.  It's just a change. 

Lighter




Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on March 09, 2020, 11:36:20 AM
I want to jot down stuff I've been noticing and working on.

Being heard is huge for me now. Speaking with a calm steady voice, not getting emotional and speaking so I feel heard.  Sometimes things come out harsh, in my father's words... with his delivery..... and it's like a blunt object falling.

That's not my way, but it's coming out when I can't find a way and get frustrated.  I see that.  I notice I don't want to do that.  I can speak without getting frustrated going forward....and that's about feeling entitled to be heard, have voice and  take care of myself.  It's my job.  I'm supposed to do that.  It's not up for debate or discussion. I get to do that.  People can listen or not, but there are consequences.

I get to state boundaries and consequences for overstepping.  I get to enforce those boundaries.  There's no question that I will or won't.  It's just how it is.   No fretting or worrying about it now.

I'll handle responses, protests and whining as it comes up and it will come up.  That's OK as long as I don't have to control what others believe or gain their understanding.  I don't need to. 

How I feel and what I understand is the important piece in this.


I feel closer to sibs for the effort to speak up.

I feel understood, like I'm in charge of getting my needs met and will get them met. 

I don't need others to understand or be OK.  I want them to be OK, of course, but that doesn't determine my mental stability. 

I'm responding (more often) and reacting less.  It takes no getting used to.  It's just a change. 

Lighter

I love boundaries more and more, Lighter, things are so much easier when everyone knows where your line in the sand is and doesn't try to trifle with you.  I would just say don't give yourself a hard time if you don't convey as well as you'd like to - we're all still learning and I think it will get easier in time.  The difference between responding and reacting is huge!  Who would have thought.  I'm glad it's starting to mesh together a little easier and coming more easily over time xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on March 09, 2020, 01:58:27 PM
That's BIG, Lighter!
About the voice control and demeanor, and not channeling father. Bravo.

I notice that you often mention consequences. Knowing your background in martial arts, I'm sure you mention them in the same calm, unthreatening way. It might be challenging to NOT see dialogue or emotional interactions with loved ones in terms of BATTLE.

Probably the most important consequences in drawing boundaries, in my experience, don't have a ton to do with others (except of course with kids). But mostly, I think, the most valuable consequences are for the self. Such as:

--This dialogue is feeling toxic or borderline abusive to me. My consequence for myself is that I will say, "I am feeling frustrated so I'm going to take a half-hour for a walk. We can continue when I get back." (Or, later today, whatever....)

--This person (non family) does not appear to be hearing me. I will state my request (same calm tone) two more times. If it's not responded to, I will say: "This is not satisfactory to me. I will find someone in a management role to see how to get it resolved." (And then exit.)

Stuff like that. If there is any risk of internally confusing "consequence" with "punishment", it might be best to make the first priority defining consequences for the self. That de-escalates most conflicts, I think. It helps not to live in battle mode.

You know I make all this up, right? Just my opinions. But they do come from years of pondering and thinking about boundaries, fwiw.

Hugs and kudos,
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 09, 2020, 06:13:59 PM
Tupp:

I KNOW better than to be hard on myself for doing my best, but sometimes it's not so easy, is it? 

I'm feeling more confident and curious about how I'll handle myself going forward. 

And you're right... the boundaries are so important. ONce they're in place things get easier, cut trouble off at the pass, point out where our attention needs to shift without confusion.

Yup yup yup.

Lighter 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on March 10, 2020, 12:01:22 AM
Did you mean Tupp or Hops?

Me, I lose track all the time....but thought you might've been responding to moi.

:)

Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 10, 2020, 04:53:49 PM
That's BIG, Lighter!
About the voice control and demeanor, and not channeling father. Bravo.  Yup yup yup yup. It feels super important right now.

I notice that you often mention consequences. Knowing your background in martial arts, I'm sure you mention them in the same calm, unthreatening way. It might be challenging to NOT see dialogue or emotional interactions with loved ones in terms of BATTLE.

I never engage in battles and this speaking up for myself, even in my father's words, is new for me.... or so it seems.  Typically I just leave.  Having kids meant I COULD speak up, easily and often when necessary, bc it was for my kids.  Speaking up for myself is different, but getting easier with coaches like you and examples to help drive the info home.

Probably the most important consequences in drawing boundaries, in my experience, don't have a ton to do with others (except of course with kids). But mostly, I think, the most valuable consequences are for the self. Such as:  I think I've been talking about boundaries and reading about boundaries and watching others deal with boundaries BUT without realizing how difficult it is to do when I'm in reactive mode.  I haven't sussed out reactive vs responsive till recently and so...... the topic of boundaries has taken on a new heft and weight.  They're very real and accessible.  I didn
I didn't understand how the "light switch" flipping WAS REALLY being stuck or not stuck in reactive amygdala brain.  All the talking in the world, understanding, making up mantras just couldn't penetrate and take hold... grow.... internalize and become default and I couldn't understand why.  Knowing why is helpful.  Knowing it still comes and goes, as it is now.... I'm having a moment.... the kids see me spilling things... 3 things in 30 minutes and so I STOP, put down glass and liquids and breathe.  Post.  Examine what's going on internally.  Think about how difficult it is to remember or utilize boundaries when in fight or flight. 


--This dialogue is feeling toxic or borderline abusive to me. My consequence for myself is that I will say, "I am feeling frustrated so I'm going to take a half-hour for a walk. We can continue when I get back." (Or, later today, whatever....)Ya..... I have more trouble disengaging when I'm dealing with younger sib. There are certain people I've never walked away from, still have to fight the codependence stuff.  I can usually identify the projections and exaggerations... but it's hard to take a break.  I'll think about that.  I understand it's a good choice and appreciate your writing it out here.

--This person (non family) does not appear to be hearing me. I will state my request (same calm tone) two more times. If it's not responded to, I will say: "This is not satisfactory to me. I will find someone in a management role to see how to get it resolved." (And then exit.)I can HEAR this more clearly now.... practice it proactively.... make a habit of it.

Stuff like that. If there is any risk of internally confusing "consequence" with "punishment", it might be best to make the first priority defining consequences for the self. That de-escalates most conflicts, I think. It helps not to live in battle mode. 

You know I make all this up, right? Just my opinions. But they do come from years of pondering and thinking about boundaries, fwiw.  I wrote a big response to this post... I think it went away?  I don't see it on the board.

Anyway, I have a situation with a father at our school sending Instagram messages to underage girls..... I'll DO something about it, just not sure what yet.

AND a mother is asking me to take her child in, during this viral thing, and keep him in school, care for him bc her immune system is compromised and she doesn't want to get sick if he brings it home.
 I have a child already going to school, pretty much same classes, so she figures I'm already IN IT.... it won't matter if her child is here.  I have conflicted feelings about that... not in the feeding and staying on him with school work... getting him to school and home but with the questins.... WHAT IF HE DOES become ill?  I think it's a mistake to think about it while I'm still shooting adrenaline from oldest dd driving to the store (girls decided to buy rice, beans and tp, just in case) so it's just a very difficult day I'm not comfortable making big decisions around.  Will see T tomorrow so I'm giving self permission to let things simmer till then.

Thanks for responses, Hops.

Lighter


Hugs and kudos,
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 11, 2020, 04:24:13 PM
I want to get in the yard so will just jot things down as I remember them without looking up proper spelling, etc.

T and I talked about editing and giving away STUFF in a very happy positive way.  She talked about the "basement" where we consider things and perhaps attach meaning to them or don't.  Attaching meaning to things is about seeing ourselves as THAT... that thing or connection.  When that's gone there's more room for expansion and connection to the whole.  Around here you see lots of bumper stickers like.... ALL ONE, etc.  That's what she's talking about.  Who we are without the stories defining us.

We talked about giving up meat... she's not a vegetarian or vegan though she's tried and failed bc of low energy and feeling very bad physically.  She said the gal running retreats in this part of the State eats meat and that lady said the Dalai Lama eats meat.  That every body is different and we eat for health while being mindful around those choices.

The girls and I have talked about giving up meat certain days of the week.  I'm feeling really good about that, at a minimum.

Around these discussions she used a word sounding like RE-A-FI.... hard e and i.   It's Buddhist word that means aligning ourselves to the truth... maybe Hops knows it?  I'm paraphrasing badly here, but want to keep moving.
  This brought her to discussion around the cross.... before it was associated with that "Jesus guy" and then she laughed.... the cross was here way before. 

If the horizontal part of the cross is our physical life and the vertical is our spiritual life.... we strive to find the middle and THEN we can rise spiritually, grow.... become more conscious and aware of our true nature, in a nutshell.  Between desire and aversion..... seeking pleasure and avoiding pain.... there is balance in the middle.

We had maybe half the appointment left so I brought up the needle/medical thing and she said we could do a small exercise around it... she wished we could do an entire appointment around it BUT that's OK bc I give blood this weekend and can observe how anything shifted, if at all.   

She gave me two choices.... have young Lighter speak to older Lighter about the experiences OR do some blinking around it.... she called it Flash.   I didn't need to imagine them in my hands and weigh them out.  I always will go for the Flash over the other.

She brought me to my happy tomato garden with all it's sites sounds and smells.... warm summer sun on fragrant tomatoes and vines.... and we did eye movements, then one blink.... many times.  Then we checked the garden and repeated but with 2 blinks.  It was easy and she kept checking in around it... how did it feel..  was it easy.  Yup.

We brought the anxiety down from 8 to 0... I couldn't find the anxiety... it was fuzzy and far away... too far to reach and I didn't try very hard.  Just let it go then went back to the garden for a minute or two and we did the eye movement again while she mixed up the blinks.... 2..... 2....  1...... 3.... 2 etc.  THIS time I noticed the eye movements were harder... my tongue wanted to help, and my eyes wanted to just blink blink blink blink blink without stopping.  I tried to focus on my breathing through all this and follow her fingers and stay in the garden and blink quickly not longer blinks, etc.

She said the medical/needle/blood stuff is very common and the difficulty in the end was about control... it's hard to release all expectations and desire for control around this.

She asked what was true about myself and I responded without thinking that I was trustworthy and honoring my intuition will keep me safe... I am safe. I trust myself to stay safe... I am safe. 

Then I went out into the nicest day I've seen in a very long time. 

I'm going to spend a couple hours in the moss garden.... feeling the sun and breeze, noticing the birds and feisty squirrels.   Let all that simmer down.

I like T's approach to different concepts from different POVs. 
Today we worked on dissolving neural pathways....building new ones. 
We worked to rea fy stories in the basement.
We worked to activate the amygdala, move the anxiety into the processing center, process then file in historic files..... memory reconsolidation..... Flash....  and so this T doesn't force any ONE way of looking at this kind of growth.  It feels like she's packing information onto a sculpture... a handful of clay on this side, then the other, then on top, then below..... which brings a more completely picture for me.

She quoted Tolle....
"Ask yourself is there joy, easy, and lightness in what I am doing?
If there isn't, then time is covering up the present moment and life is perceived as a burden or a struggle."

I really loved that and it was super timely.  There's no guru gaga ... around anything.  I think she touches on everything.... every approach, bc I'm open and willing to hear different vantage points.  IF she told me what to think, how to go about something.... I'd dig in and resist. 

She's going on 2 back to back retreats soon, which is awsome, bc I know she's on her own journey, doing her own work, and will be ravenously hungry for meat when she gets out.  She's not vegetarian but tried it...  noticed she had to plan her life around naps and feeling lousy physically. The gal running one of the retreats in this area isn't vegetarian, which surprised T.  I think the Dalai Lama eats meat... everyone's body is different, and giving up meat for a day or more a week makes good sense to me, for the planet mainly.  More about that later.

REALLY cool appointment today.  I was up and ready to go before T was..... just felt great and ready to get at the day; )

Final note from T....
becoming my own best friend.... yup yup yup.

Tup, I'm channeling you a bit here as I bought a lovely long pink linen shirt from GoodWill and enjoy it so much.... such a happy color. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 12, 2020, 10:28:00 PM
I walked the labyrinth today while dd had her appointment.  The gardener was there, tending and cutting back bushes. 

Studying what they did.... they laid out a huge circle then stoned in the edges with cement and filled it all with very fine gravel that felt good on bare feet. 

After I brushed my feet off in the grass I sat on the porch swing and overheard the owner talking with the gardener.  As the owner passed me on the porch I thanked him for having such a lovely yard and labyrinth.   He lit up like a Christmas tree and talked about his plans and what he wanted for the bushes to grow into as they matured.  He thanked me for spending time there and went in.

I told the gardener he was doing a fine job and HE lit up too.  He looked like Jesus from The Walking Dead.... adorable and very pleased with his work on this project. He was pleased to see someone enjoying it too.  I could picture something that lovely in all my rocks and moss, but that's just dreaming.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on March 13, 2020, 03:26:40 PM
Boy can I see you making that happen, Lighter!

A neighborhood moss labyrinth...

LOVE IT!

A lovely dream regardless.

So pleased you had that experience today.

I'd bet YOU might have been lit up too.

Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 13, 2020, 10:10:50 PM
It is a lovely dream, Hops. 

A neighborhood moss labyrinth. 

It is nice to dream.

Light
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on March 14, 2020, 03:49:53 PM
Ah, Lighter, charity shop clothes are the best!  I was in one this week and a top literally fell off the coat hanger as I walked past it.  I picked it up and it was just beautiful, a whole kind of mist of blues and greens, really pretty, with layers around the bottom of it.  I just bought it, it was so nice I thought if it doesn't fit I'll turn it into a cushion :)  Lol.

I'm glad the T is going so well.  I think it's good when they have a range of tools to use in different situations and I think you can feel the difference when they're working (or have worked) through their own stuff as well as sorting yours out.  It just makes the connection stronger, I think?

The labyrinth sounds lovely.  I do think people like when someone notices their hard work and appreciates it.  It's always so nice to give someone feedback like that :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 14, 2020, 04:05:17 PM
Hi,  Tupp:

I adore blues and greens.... I associate green with ponds.... deep green lily pads, moss, and algae... frogs.  I used to buy special handmade papers with deep lovely greens swirled and dotted on the page. 

Did the top fit or will be become a favorite cushion?

About T doing her own work... I think it makes it easier for her to drop all ego and deal with me where I am, with zero expectations/viewing me through her experiences, etc.  Also, a deeper connection, as you say, bc she's been through what I'm going through.... she gets it, yup yup yup.

Lighter



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on March 15, 2020, 02:00:36 AM
It fits!  I haven't worn it yet, because I've mostly been doing cleaning and dirty jobs and I don't want to wreck it.  But it fits perfectly :) Yes, people who don't have expectations about your experiences are worth their weight in gold, so much easier when someone else can help you but also just leave you be xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 16, 2020, 11:29:38 AM
So glad the shirt fits, Tupp.  I'll picture you wearing it in the sunshine, happy puttering, drinking tea in your garden.

My T sent e-mails that this week's appointments will be over computer.  I've never face timed anyone.  I'm not interested in it, so am not sure if I'll take it or cancel it. 

Will see.

My brother is upset everyone running around disrupting the economy.  He wants everyone to just be normal right now... and sensible as well.  I tell him it's not that I'm worried he'll get the virus BUT THAT HE'LL GET IT AND SPREAD IT bc he doesn't feel too bad.  Stopping the virus won't be about carrying on normally, IMO.  There has to be some base line changes that curtail the spread and we all have to join in.

I write this while 2 nights ago neighbors and I were passing glasses and food around a fire pit... playing pool and darts..... yesterday all the neighbors were in the culdesac talking, the elderly immune-compromised among them.  We're actually having MORE contact than before! 

It's comforting to speak to neighbors and enjoy fellowship in times of stress, but it's worrisome to me now.  I'll say this... the sober retired nurse came by the firepit and you could tell she didn't want that hug from one of the tipsy neighbors, but she got it anyway, then had to endure holding hands all the way to her property..... while resisting it.  The tipsy neighbor started a job as a bank teller today.  I know she's not being careful, bc she's just not in the headspace to be.

Ahh... wrong thread so will end this now.   I'm feeling OK.  Happy about your shirt.  Happy to spend time in the yard. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on March 16, 2020, 12:07:59 PM
SIX feet apart.
No glasses passing!

Grrrr on the irresponsible tipsy person.

Sounds like you have good neighbors though, Lighter.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 16, 2020, 03:10:20 PM
Right, Hops?

And the tipsy neighbor... with the new bank teller job, is married to the guy recovering from the immune thing that almost killed him... should have killed him.... and he's not strong yet.  We pass the pug back and forth regularly.  Can you get it OFF a pet's fur?  Don't know, but I know the husband likely wouldn't survive this IF his wife brings it home.

I'm hoping her work gives strict protocols for safety and she brings them home, shares AND practices.  If not, we'll have to have a sober conversation.

And everyone standing around in a little circle yesterday..... I just looked on and didn't go.  I'm going to prod the retired nurse to speak to them..... all very old friends.   She'll just up and say it the way it is, as a medical professional, rather than me looking like a nutjob newcomer trying to control them. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on March 16, 2020, 05:17:21 PM
Likely not....

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/news/can-dogs-get-coronavirus/ (https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/news/can-dogs-get-coronavirus/)

Google is REALLY helpful, as long as you rely on reliable sources, not anecdote.

Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 16, 2020, 08:57:45 PM
Thanks, Hops: )
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 17, 2020, 04:29:21 PM
This morning DD19 and I completed our online questionnaires and headed to school to give blood.

I tried to stay in my tomato garden and not think about anything negative, which came and went.


There were 2 teachers at a table outside the building where we were supposed to give blood.  Two other tables held snacks and pens for filling out forms.  We were asked to use hand sanitizer and I cleaned the pens with it too.   

There was a change in plan.... the big blood connection bus was where the draw would happen. I wasn't happy about being stuck in that little space with other people, but that was the way they planned it. 

I stepped into the bus and saw the gentle smile of a favorite teacher giving blood..... that calmed me down and I had a seat.  The red headed tech, with the shiner, took me into a little phone booth sized room to prick my finger and check iron levels. She spoke quite loudly and used words like "ain't" pretty often.  The smell of alcohol and whatever else hit me by then and I have to tell you... that is a very LOUD smell.  It's not all in my head.   It's just overwhelming, but I didn't feel lightheaded and my late friend P joined me in my tomato garden... I felt so happy to see her!  I sailed through as DD entered the bus and took a seat.   

I chose my recliner...on right side of the isle, then switched to left after checking my veins.  I have bigger ones in my right arm, which makes sense AND they pricked a finger on my rigth hand.   The gal did something pinchy painful to my arm that could have been placing the needle, but it wasn't the needle and left many tiny hickey marks in two places over top of the vein.... I assume she inserted the needle between them while I looked away and thought about the garden. I was fine.  No upset.  No feeling I'd lose consciousness.  I felt strong and fully in control of my brain and body, which was the first time in this situation for the first time around needles. 

Now,  I noticed all the things that would usually bring the darkness... that awful feeling when the needle goes in and things drop.... the vein feels like it's ill.... and then..... nothing happened.  I just kept feeling fine and wasn't surprised, bc I'd set my mind things would BE fine.       

DD took the chair beside me, across the isle.  IT wasn't clear if there was a tech on board who could find tiny deep set veins.... I mentioned it to the red with the shiner and she just laughed with the other techs about it, so not sure what to expect.  Also, DD and I did get the idea these gals had been plucked off the street that morning to work the gig..... not a calming feeling.  Shiner gal had many things she needed correction for.... over and over.  She didn't seem like she was used to doing that job on the bus, but we're troopers, so....

Red hit dd's vein the first try!  WHOO HOO!   DD said tech then wiggled the needle to settle it and that hurt a lot.  DD's arm hurt, had pins and needles, she was unhappy with the draw in left arm, stuck finger on right hand, upset and uncomfortable pretty much all the way through, but things went super great all things considered,  IMO. 

We received 10.00 gift cards, which was a nice surprise, and headed for take out sushi where I learned the Governor ordered all restaurants to switch to take out only at 5 pm.

I wore gloves.   All the employees wore gloves.   Counters and menus were wiped down after customers touched them.  Sushi was amazing and I felt like that last T appointment was a tremendous success. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on March 17, 2020, 06:36:42 PM
BRAVO, Lighter!
Despite its imperfect representatives,
the world was not your enemy for the blood draw.

I'm really happy for you that you opened yourself up
to what was going right. Even the things that you did not
control...generally went all right.

You trusted the universe a bit! Ignorant gum chewing
strangers! Nobody died because you weren't hyper vigilant!

More bravos.

Hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 17, 2020, 11:53:15 PM
Thanks, Hops!

I really did feel hypervigilance battled the garden for dominance on that bus.

I felt like I was stuck between the two at times, but kept trying hard to smell sunny tomatoes and vines...
tomatoes and vines...
tomatoes and vines, lol. 

And it worked! 

We signed up for the May blood drive at school.  I didn't know one bag of (gently shaken) blood could help up to 3 people.

The techs have these little rocking tables that cradle the bags as they fill up so they don't clot.  And every time I looked I was astonished it didn't bother me.  I noticed the red blood filled line... nothing! 

I saw the needle before it went into dd's arm.... NOTHING.

The blood bead coming out of my arm, bc it just wouldn't clot.... nu thin.

No reactivity at all. 

This is astonishing, particularly bc of the smell in that closed in area AND the close proximity to other people which added stress.   

My T will be so pleased: )

Lighter
ps  I think we will be "socially distancing" longer than 2 weeks also... sadly.
A 2 week incubation period seems likely... I keep hearing that from many sources.  I have to begin that countdown today after all the running around, touching stuff and being closer than 6 feet to people at several different places, which is stupid, but man... it's SO HARD to stop doing it, IME.     
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on March 18, 2020, 01:26:42 AM
Well done on getting through that, Lighter!  Wow, that is a big shift, I'm really pleased for you :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 18, 2020, 03:07:01 PM
Thanks, Tupp.

I had a WhatsApp appointment with T this morning and she was very pleased about the blood donation experience too. It's amazing how strong our minds are and how putting the stories on the shelf frees us up.... delivers us from reactivity.

I shared some upsetting recent reactions with her.... waking at 1am feeling anxious then 3am and eating both times instead of feeling in my body.... comforting my anxiety as I would a small child... asking it if I need to do something now... like flee a burning house.  If not, let it know we'll deal with it in the morning.... breathe to activate PNS parasympathetic nervous system and do what can be done, then go back to sleep. 

She said it's very common to seek out dairy and ice cream.... to eat things familiar from infancy.... seeking food and safety and comfort from exterior things under stress,  esp for women.  The stress really shows us where those old pathways are and how strong they are. 

I also have a desire to b slap a certain face when I see it on TV,  which I'm avoiding like, ahem, the plague.  It's still reactivity showing me where it lives in my body.  I can give it attention, without judgment, and wait for what comes up around it.  Breath light and spaciousness around it.

 I know what it feels like to tend to the new pathways while resisting the old..  I just did it on the blood bus.   It's a habit we cultivate daily and notice when stress overwhelms us or threatens to overwhelm us.  Remembering to do it, when under big stress, will get easier as we cultivate new pathways daily.   I know this, but the stress makes it difficult to remember.... living in the amygdala shuts down higher thinking.  Is paralyzing.   Breathing engages the parasympathetic nervous system (PNS) and calms down our biology..... unhooks the alarm bells so we can think and reason... problem solve again.  Center ourselves and give up expectations we can control anything outside ourselves.

There will always be chaos around us and it;s normal to want to control what we can.  Learning to calm ourselves, as default setting, means we learn to live in the eye of the chaos.  The collective chaos is all around us,  which is more stress than normal.

T shared story of Vietnamese boat people struggling to stay alive in times of intense fear on the Sea.  If everyone despaired at once, it was the end of them.  If just ONE person remained centered and mindful... it was contagious... everyone calmed down.... like a chain reaction,  and they survived. 

If we remember we can't control anything external,  make peace with that and control what we can, then give up expectations... we're centered in our bodies and the eye of the storm. 

I'm reminding myself here... non-judgmental self-compassion..... curiosity..... releasing the stories we've held for so long.... tending to the physical sensations around the stress.... remember to breathe.

I'm strengthening my tomato garden with more tactile detail.... the prickly vines....  the feel of warm tomatoes..... along with the sight and smell...  the sound of the bugs.... that works for me.  I wonder when that will be my default: ) 

It's a good thing I had that appointment, bc last night was jarring.... disrupted sleep, self-defeating self-soothing activities.... difficulty overcoming reactivity.  It all seems so clear when I get out of fight or flight mode. 

It feels like practicing a biology hack....
a shortcut to re-centering myself, which honestly is impossible if I try to think my way out of it. I'm so grateful to have this experience and ability in my life.

Lighter




Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 19, 2020, 05:57:44 PM
My sister's FIL passed away this afternoon.  It was agony in many ways, bc he'd just moved to a hospice situation in Canada..... and BIL wasn't prepared for him to go so soon.  They expected him to live another 3 months.  My sister fought like a bulldog to keep him hydrated, lucid and... it doesn't matter now.

I'm conflicted about the hospice situation but so glad he's no longer suffering. 

He was a good man.  A hard worker.  A committed family man and Grandpa.  He immigrated from Italy to Canada with zero English language skills.  He worked like 3 men on the railroad, till his legs were crushed, then he went back to work like 2 men, splitting his own wood well into his old age, making hundreds of gallons of wine for the family every year, growing food and making old-world sausages... canning food and sharing it. 

It was a very rich life. 

Nono, may you rest in peace.

 You are loved and will be missed

Farewell,
Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on March 19, 2020, 07:36:36 PM
What an impressive man!

I'm very sorry for your sister-in-law's loss of her father.
He sounds like an amazing, richly storied character.

I'm sorry you're feeling that loss personally, too.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 19, 2020, 09:21:26 PM
Thanks, Hops.
It's the end of an era.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 20, 2020, 02:26:44 PM
Sister and family telling Nona about Nono's death now.  She said it feels like killing kittens... so so sad.  No screaming.  Just sad crying and being held by many loved ones.

Nona has a little chest rattle and fever so doc making a house call.  It's impossible to imagine these moments in a time of strict social distancing.....  hands-on comfort and expressions of care seem vital.

For me, times like these are confusing.  Puzzling logistics leaves me exhausted and feeling defeated.  Normal solutions are problematic and perhaps deadly. 

My elderly neighbor left his father in an Ohio hospice.  I haven't called to check on those neighbors yet.   I'm afraid words of comfort will fail. I'm afraid I won't have any words of comfort, but I can listen. 

That's likely better than any words or platitudes I might otherwise offer.   

They aren't alone.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on March 20, 2020, 03:31:40 PM
Oh, Lighter, I'm so sorry to read this.  It's such a sad time and so difficult to 'carry on as normal' when such tragedy occurs.  I don't think it's the words that comfort, I think it's the fact that people care enough to offer them?  And I do think sometimes a nice card that can be read over and over can help.  I'm sorry you've lost Nono and for the elderly chap in the hospice.  Sending much love xx xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 23, 2020, 09:22:45 PM
Thank you, Tupp. 

Light
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 24, 2020, 07:58:16 PM
Today it gently rained nonstop.  The moss is happy and green.  I would have pulled weeds, but I didn't want to be in the rain today.  Sometimes I do.

Walking meditation for me today was cleaning the kitchen.  I mean...  I cleaned under the stove, put away clean pots and pans sitting out for days which requires organization.... cleaned floors and counters which means things get cleaned deep into corners and rinsed.

I and clean fridge out tomorrow....  Thursday is trash day.  Groceries coming Friday.... or so I think.  T appointment and I should have written down what I wanted to talk about bc there was something... and now I'm drawing a blank.   

I think my bra is too tight to think clearly. 

Yup, that was it.  I remember now.

Lighter

   
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on March 25, 2020, 02:48:03 AM
Today it gently rained nonstop.  The moss is happy and green.  I would have pulled weeds, but I didn't want to be in the rain today.  Sometimes I do.

Walking meditation for me today was cleaning the kitchen.  I mean...  I cleaned under the stove, put away clean pots and pans sitting out for days which requires organization.... cleaned floors and counters which means things get cleaned deep into corners and rinsed.

I and clean fridge out tomorrow....  Thursday is trash day.  Groceries coming Friday.... or so I think.  T appointment and I should have written down what I wanted to talk about bc there was something... and now I'm drawing a blank.   

I think my bra is too tight to think clearly. 

Yup, that was it.  I remember now.

Lighter

 

Lol, Lighter, I am bra free while on lockdown and wonder if I will be able to get back in to one when it's all over!  I find I can only wear either boots or flip flops on my feet these days as it's been so long since I wore shoes and I wonder if the same will happen with bras!

Yes, much spring cleaning and reorganising will be done in many homes, I think, my place already feels cleaner and less cluttered just because we don't have the constant in and out going on that we usually would.  Having time and headspace to think is helping with that as well.  I hope the session with T is good.  Write it down quickly in case you forget it again!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 25, 2020, 11:42:33 AM
I'm all about boots and sandals, Tupp.


Lighter: )
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 25, 2020, 02:17:24 PM
Appointment with T today a good one.

It's difficult to widen one's gaze to the point of BEING the sky watching clouds go by. 

It comes and goes.  Main message....

just let the clouds be..... 
just let it be.

Breathe.

 The mind wants to work on those things and will IF we allow it..
like a self-cleaning oven....
 the clouds will turn to mist and be gone.

Refusing to give our attention to the worrisome things means we free our minds up to focus on being present....breathing... allowing the brain to function as it was meant to.

Looking down on the world and what we label as good and bad gives us the ability to just notice them without judgment, which is really really REALLY hard sometimes for me. 

I understand latching onto the negative/evil/bad stories means we're less capable of responding.  This I understand.  This makes sense. 

The world will always have light and dark.   There can be no other way.  Accepting that, accepting we can't control or change it..... learning to change the way we see it is all we can do and that brings more peace and happiness in our consciousness.  More peace and happiness in one person's consciousness is a part of everything... we aren't separate.

It's not easy to keep this in focus but...
all we can do is work on ourselves and internal worlds.

I asked about the Tibetan idea of the afterlife and there was much about hot boiling caldrons of oil, and of being beaten BEFORE suffering the hot cauldron of oil, and many many levels of torment and punishment that did go on.  At some point we talked about the hells on earth.  I'm still not clear on the original question and answers but am positive the amazing feeling of dropping into awareness..... of the joy and smiles it brings to my face, is something I wish to expand on and cultivate, particularly during this time.

I can do THAT.

I have a couple of books I plan to get to... Budhha brain being one.

T saw the yard and what I work on.... she didn't realize the yard is all moss, every inch of it.  One of my favorite things in the yard is cleaning up edges and borders.  Today is sunny and mild and breezy and THAT's what I'm going to do for a couple hours..... I consider it a treat. 
 
Lighter



 



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on March 25, 2020, 03:14:13 PM
I'm all about boots and sandals, Tupp.


Lighter: )

Lol, I thought that said boobs and sandals :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on March 25, 2020, 03:18:22 PM
Appointment with T today a good one.

It's difficult to widen one's gaze to the point of BEING the sky watching clouds go by. 

It comes and goes.  Main message....

just let the clouds be..... 
just let it be.

Breathe.

 The mind wants to work on those things and will IF we allow it..
like a self-cleaning oven....
 the clouds will turn to mist and be gone.

Refusing to give our attention to the worrisome things means we free our minds up to focus on being present....breathing... allowing the brain to function as it was meant to.

Looking down on the world and what we label as good and bad gives us the ability to just notice them without judgment, which is really really REALLY hard sometimes for me. 

I understand latching onto the negative/evil/bad stories means we're less capable of responding.  This I understand.  This makes sense. 

The world will always have light and dark.   There can be no other way.  Accepting that, accepting we can't control or change it..... learning to change the way we see it is all we can do and that brings more peace and happiness in our consciousness.  More peace and happiness in one person's consciousness is a part of everything... we aren't separate.

It's not easy to keep this in focus but...
all we can do is work on ourselves and internal worlds.

I asked about the Tibetan idea of the afterlife and there was much about hot boiling caldrons of oil, and of being beaten BEFORE suffering the hot cauldron of oil, and many many levels of torment and punishment that did go on.  At some point we talked about the hells on earth.  I'm still not clear on the original question and answers but am positive the amazing feeling of dropping into awareness..... of the joy and smiles it brings to my face, is something I wish to expand on and cultivate, particularly during this time.

I can do THAT.

I have a couple of books I plan to get to... Budhha brain being one.

T saw the yard and what I work on.... she didn't realize the yard is all moss, every inch of it.  One of my favorite things in the yard is cleaning up edges and borders.  Today is sunny and mild and breezy and THAT's what I'm going to do for a couple hours..... I consider it a treat. 
 
Lighter

I'm glad it was a good appointment, Lighter, and that the moss is there for you as well :)  The thing I find difficult about the bad news stories at a time like this is that information - essential information - is despatched through the media.  So there's much sifting through 'stuff' to find out what you need to know.  I really think our twattish government (and I suspect the same for you over there) - should have been delivering clear, fact based statements with clear instructions of what to do, when to do it and how.  But they've been running behind the situation the whole time so people have been frantically scanning papers and watching the news just trying to find out what to do.  And of course they've had to read so much horrifying stuff in the meantime.  Crazy situations.  But I suspect we're all at a point now where we've done as much as we can and we're now just in a position to wait it out - which means lots of time for clouds and moss, I guess :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on March 25, 2020, 03:59:24 PM
Quote
I understand latching onto the negative/evil/bad stories means we're less capable of responding.  This I understand.  This makes sense.

I didn't think this referred to coronavirus, but to the Contractor!

But it's a very important understanding. About one's "latching on." Gives your power back.

Yay...off to Zoom with a friend...

xxx
L
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 25, 2020, 09:48:09 PM
It's everything, Hops.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 27, 2020, 03:13:18 PM
Renter on the island saying they can't fish and have no money for stores.  That's crazy, bc people can fish while staying 6 feet apart.  Why are they forbidding hungry people from harvesting fish?

I texted cottage housekeeper to take all the canned and dry goods to help get them through... give some to renter if he's hungry.   I don't honestly know what's in the cabinets now.  drawer full of gf pastas and some good indian spices.  I know there's  fresh veggies, cheese and butter.... fruit, so that will be nice.  I paid housekeeper ahead 3 cleanings and am happy about that. 

I got up this morning and had the house to myself, which was good. The groceries came and I disinfected the frozen stuff with wipes and placed most of the other stuff in the big truck, set the ozone machine for 80 minutes and it's working now.... there were distractions and I was in the zone.   

I'm snuggled in with oldest dd19 and baby girl pug... (BGP).... trying to write
a note on Nono's memorial page.  I've started many times.  It's hard.  It makes my chest hurt.

The day is warm..... very sunny.  I want fresh herbs growing in the porch again.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on March 27, 2020, 05:43:05 PM
Hi Lighter,
I worry, because ozone generators are dangerous (banned in some states) and can harm the lining of your lungs. From what I've read...the only issue with groceries, packages etc,--is to simply disinfect by wiping them down, to be thorough.

That just takes any solution on a paper towel with 60% alcohol or another disinfectant like Lysol spray. Either type works equally. Forgive, but I Google everything. And only trust "dot.gov, dot.edu, and dot.org" sources. "Dot.COM means...dot-want-money."

Locking things in a truck with an ozone generator on...? I've read for many hours and have not come across anyone else recommending ozone magic. If it were that effective and practical against coronaviruses on surfaces or grocery bags, it'd be in headlines.

So go for it, if it's what you have evidence for. Just saying, so far every single authoritative article I've read on what to do, makes zero mention of ozone machines.

Be well I just hope is you won't be magical. Just follow the same old specific advice that every expert with advanced knowledge of infectious disease is giving. Widely. There ISN'T a special alternative-med, alternative-tech secret out there. There's no special secret. It's all the same advice/protection for all humans now...what works.

If your ozone generator could be guaranteed to kill Covid19 just by ozonating the air, bravo! But a blast of ozone in your own chest isn't good....and the evidence there is (not much) is more about ozone generation in air systems to kill pollutants. Not a never-before-seen virus that's sticking to surfaces. I certainly could be wrong...but...

From a NYPost article on coronavirus MYTHS:
False

The non-FDA-approved germicide, which uses the main component in smog to kill disease, is touted as a cheap cure for viruses including, more recently, the coronavirus. But there’s no such thing as a free lunch. Ozone purifiers create serious health risks — including lung and cellular damage — for humans and animals and have been banned in places such as California for this reason.

“It is one of the products where the risks heavily outweigh the benefits,” Jason Chan, an assistant professor in science education at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, told Quartz.

(I Googled because you kept mentioning it, and I worry that you've bought into some special-sauce hype somewhere. I just can't find any real recommendation for ozone-purifying packages, other than from people who profit from selling these machines....)

If I'm wrong I welcome learning so! I admire your efforts to do all you can, Lighter.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 28, 2020, 03:27:02 PM
Hops:


You're right, ozone is harmful to humans, pets... all living things, including pathogens.... bacteria, viruses, and molds.  The ozone has an additional oxygen atom that makes it a powerful oxidant which kills microorganisms on contact by breaking down the cell walls.

I used the truck so the ozone gas would saturate completely all surfaces of the groceries and grocery bag surfaces.  I set the machine for an hour, which I hope was overkill, but the truth is... I'm winging it here.  30 minutes should have been enough time, but wanted to make sure entire truck and all little crevices filled with gas.

Afterward, I aired the truck out for hours making sure to hit the button to turn off the dome lights.... just let all the doors open so there was no breathing the gas in... and that was a good 6 hours, which was definitely overkill, but it slipped my mind. We aren't actually using the truck now.

When I wiped down all the frozen items I wore gloves, changed hands up with the wipe to keep the gloves from transferring virus and placed clean items into a cooler as I went.  I watched a guy, representing himself as a doctor, demonstrate how to clean groceries with wipes, and warm soapy water... and I was pretty sure he missed lots of spots.... transferred virus.... he made me super uncomfortable and gave me an idea how I'd go about the process before I started, which was helpful.

Afterward, I popped off the gloves, put them into the trash, wiped down my forearms with the disinfectant, put the grocery items away, then wiped down everything in the areas I traveled through, including the sink area after washing hands after getting clothes in the washer, which I wiped down again.  I wiped at my face with my biceps, which I felt OK about.

I was as thorough as I could be.  Things went better than I thought they would.  I'm not sure about the clothes, but I can't think of anything I'd change, except maybe leaving the ozone on for 80 minutes..... maybe.  Maybe peeling the clothes off before taking the gloves off?  Not sure.

The disinfectant wipes leave a little wet bubbly residue so I could pretty easily SEE where I'd wiped and hadn't, which was reassuring.  I'm guessing an older container of wipes might be dryer and not leave bubbles which would make me worry about missing places and make the job harder, last longer, IMO. 

 I noticed all my "emergency baby wipes" dried out while organizing emergency supplies so any kind of wipe would dry out over time.

The first time I used the machine was in the house..... it was supposed to bond to the stink molecules in the air, make them heavier and fall, where I could sweep them up. I  stayed out of the house all day, then air it out for 3 hours before returning.  I knew breathing the stuff wasn't safe, but I didn't realize it would have such a BIG smell.

The second time I used the ozone machine was to kill mold and moss in the truck during a particularly damp season.  The truck sits under trees, in the shade anyway.  I ran and ran and ran that machine, then followed up with Damp Rid product, which always collect liquid.  The smell of ozone lasts a good long time, btw.

Thanks for thinking of me.  I'm crossing my fingers and hoping I got it right enough.
Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on March 28, 2020, 06:47:38 PM
I believe if you have any sort of gel, like aloe, you can just make a plain alcohol (60%) to aloe gel (20%) mix and ta da, hand sanitizer. Nothing fancy. I bet it might work with a simple lotion for the 20% too, but I'm not sure.

I have loads of it now but when I thought it wouldn't arrive, I planned to simply put a half-inch of rubbing alcohol in the bottom of a plastic container with a good lid, add small squares of paper towel ... and that's it. Easy. Portable.

We might've watched the same video! Big anxiety about missing a tiny spot might be counterproductive. Just watch for that anxiety...we all have it in one way or another.

This is a Great Big Situation we can't control. The video that empowered me most and made me feel much less scared was the one from the ICU doctor that I posted. He takes quite a while to warm up to his task (so it's a bit long), but once he starts explaining the specifics, I really got it. Time well spent.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 29, 2020, 09:02:08 AM
Oh my gosh... either I'm just too busy or lazy to go to lengths like this.

We have windows open due to the oil-based stain & poly I've used in the bathroom. I make sure to thoroughly wash, then bleach kitchen surfaces. I've had contractors in the house. But no - we're not concerned about delivered packages, or mail, or bringing in groceries around here.

And we're all going through the spring sinus & allergy thing...

so, the normal precautions around here which sound like a lot less time & energy y'all are putting into trying to protect yourself. Of course, except for the 4 of us - and the contractors who work here - the nearest neighbor is a mile away. And with spring here, more time outside... and all of nature's magical properties... perhaps that's a bigger advantage than spreading chemicals all over the place in our homes.

I don't know. I don't know if anyone - including "experts" - know. But, it almost seems as if the extra work in trying to protect oneself, subconsciously feeds the fear cycle. Breaking the fear cycle doesn't mean throwing out prudence, either. It means using common sense and lowering the stress overall, and putting the mind to work on things that are completely and totally different.

Babbel.com has pretty low prices for learning a new language, for instance. Buck tossed some Portuguese at me the other night... so I know I can spend 1/2 hr a day and pick up enough of this for the duration of our isolation that will enable me to be somewhat fluent after a few months. I retrieved a copy of the mythology classic, Hamlet's Mill that I've wanted to re-read; I'm in the middle of a well-researched book on Norse magic & mythology too.

I KNOW people who've gotten the virus, although most haven't been tested, due the shortage. Docs just saying, yep that's what it is, and sending people home to isolate & self-care... to protect the people who are MOST vulnerable to the effects of it. Most of those recover in a week to 10 days, and the symptoms haven't been that severe. I am still convinced that the fear over this, and the extreme social, economic, & gov't reactions are going to have more serious long-lasting consequences than the virus itself. 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on March 29, 2020, 09:40:58 AM
I hear you, Amber.
It also occurs that living on a mountain might reduce the anxiety of congestion.

As to care with shopping and package disinfection, it's really pretty simple to just take those steps. Still I'm certain your kitchen is way cleaner than mine! (Since I've had no-one in, it's been easy to indulge my inner, barely inner, slob.)

I agree that obsessing over disinfection is also harmful. M does a bit more than I do, but I'm committed too. That's because medical info I've willingly absorbed (reality addict and former health researcher/writer) convinced me that avoidance in my case will be in the long run way, way less painful than getting this virus would be. As to disinfection, I'm working at being matter-of-fact about it, as though I'm just doing dishes with an extra step.

I hope there'll be fewer cases where you are; perhaps none. In my town a dozen active cases so far, but it's just gotten here and our local health workers are already stressed because we also receive trauma and cancer cases from the whole region, including your state. The simplicity of retirement (plus early canned goods and TP hoarding) means I can mostly just stay home, indefinitely, and keep on in a make-my-world-smaller way of reducing my risks. With walks and outdoor visits. M feels the same. (If there's a second wave of infection in winter, it'll be tougher but doable.)

Keep those windows open and mind your lungs!

Hugs
Hops

PS -- One reason I've posted a lot of detail about virus facts (including protection facts) isn't because I'm DOING it obsessively, but because my past career means that researching health-related topics and providing fact-based evidence is actually pleasurable. I don't post this stuff out of fear, but out of interest.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 29, 2020, 04:13:20 PM
Yeah, I know Hops. ;)

My comments were just generalized; not meant for anyone here... more as an observation on what I'm seeing lots of places and how our situation on the farm is different. We've ALL had our moments here, that said. Mostly coz too much info is suspect.

I do believe that "this too shall pass" - and we'll look back and wonder what all the panic was about. Even in my little corner of the world's grocery store, I saw people loading up like the people do for the 4x4 section of the beach for 2 weeks. Strangers stopping me to comment on the empty shelves, and knowing we were gonna be OK because we already had put stuff back. Me being really selective on what I was picking up/looking for.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 31, 2020, 09:44:43 AM
CB, I have noticed the grief process!!

I am slowly accepting that however the world changes after the worst of this is past - what we used to call "normal life" isn't coming back. That's going to be more vivid, extreme and stressful for some people, more than others. Some people have no experience yet with grief; some resist it with everything they can come up with; some of us are really tired of it - LOL.

I'm already moving into - OK, so how should I, do I, can I adapt?? and what plans can be imagined now... and things gathered toward that end...

Still no word from Buck's D in the UK; not even from the embassy. He's now pinging other channels. The hospital he's been working with has 34 employees who've tested positive. His Thurs appt is for bloodwork - to check his infection. He's been told it will have to be a "virtual appt" - which he can't do online with his home setup; and his military status won't accept - and how do you draw and analyze blood online????????

LOL... and with all this going on that's wearing on the rest of us... B has to be the contrarian in the bunch. :shakes head: I've never seen him happier. Making jokes, supporting others, being sweet as chess pie to me... but that's why he was - correction, is - an NCO, I guess.

My backup plans have backup plans... but for now, I'm just kinda taking it easy on myself. I pushed pretty hard to finish up in my bathroom, in case we have any more refugees come along. (Frees up another bathroom). So, I have my "sanctuary" back... shared just with Freddy the tomcat right now and he's been my best buddy.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on March 31, 2020, 10:20:32 AM
Skep, extreme long shot, but do you know which hospital Buck's D is in?  I have a couple of friends in the health service - it's unlikely, I know, but if one of them happens to know someone who works in that hospital they might be able to get some info for him, if he still hasn't he anything.  And yep, I can see that for someone with Buck's background this kind of situation would be more manageable for him than it is for a lot of others :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on March 31, 2020, 12:27:15 PM
Amber, are you into refugees just coming along?
Will your explicit permission be required before any new entourage members are on your land?

The virus travels, that's the point of shelter in place, stay at home, do not travel advisories.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 31, 2020, 01:57:17 PM
Amber:

It seems like B's dd would reach out and check on him, if not update him on her own situation.  I can't think of any reason why she's silent that's not really bad.  I'm glad he's being cheerful.  I guess he's used to the medical system letting him down and failing, so it's just business as usual.

CB:

There's definitely a mourning process going on.   Not knowing how things will change forever makes it harder by miles, IME.  I feel unsteady and hope it passes.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 31, 2020, 02:34:17 PM
Yes, Holly actually made me a list of who she was interested in offering shelter to. At the moment, it's just one GF that I know reasonably well. GF (M) was partner to Hol's boss who died in Oct. So M was working on the same production Hol was supposed to work on - production is of course, cancelled. THEN, M's landlord sold the house they were living in and M was going to move into/decamp to lost partner's place at the end of this month - M's not overly comfortable, still being in the early days of the grieving process still. M's only family - a sister - is in California. She was going to go spend some time there -

except now there's a stay at home; do not travel order in MD.

So I'm fine with M coming here for the time being. She's a master gardener, and we have lots to do on that front this year and this month. Then, the cameraderie we have as a small group is actually pretty solid. A lot of the petty stuff got purged out pretty quick. Anxiety is still an on-going, take turns issue. Since M lost her mom to cancer some years ago, then her partner - I adopted her pretty quick. ;) Boundaries of course need to closely maintained. But it's working and I think helping.

I'm pretty well stocked to deal with home care for most anything - including my usual allergies this time of year. So, I'm making an effort to try not to talk myself into feeling sick - just paying attention and trying to measure out how much I'm pushing myself. Trying not to do that too much too. It won't be long before I'll have Buck - and possibly the younger D here too until she can go to college.

Tupp - to answer your question - Buck is being seen at the hospital on an outpatient basis. It's MUSC and they have 34 staff now that have tested positive. THANKFULLY I think his metabolism is enough right now to keep the infection in check. And he's got his stress under control - even with the older D being incommunicado. And yeah, Lighter... I can't think of any good reasons for her not to call and say she's OK either.

Already asked him, if I need to be ready to let him go, while he goes off & tries to do some silly stupid guy-Dad rescue stuff. Comes with the territory, with this type. But oh MY.... has he been supersweet to me for no reason other than he can & has time right now.  :D
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on March 31, 2020, 07:35:11 PM
I like Buck even more than I did, Amber.

His ability to remain level headed, even while he's worried deeply about his dd and struggling with ongoing medical issues and pain.  Just... wow.  He seems like a very special gem.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on April 01, 2020, 09:07:05 AM
Lighter - one thing he's VERY good at, is jumping right into that amygdala space and "doing". He's even mastered control within it. And I've watched him in the moment - decide if he was going there or not - he doesn't have to and isn't hijacked into it.

It's pretty impressive.

But he still sees it as kind of a bad thing, despite the fact that behind all that is giant heart full of caring. I'm working on that with him, at a glacial pace.  ;)
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 01, 2020, 11:47:50 AM
Amber:

My brain goes a little weak when I read you're looking forward to Buck coming to the farm... that you feel he'd support you and your highest mental health BUT you aren't feeling up to the challenge of all the personalities interacting at the moment. This was on your thread.

I'm paraphrasing here, but... is it possible to have Buck to the farm soon, but you aren't doing that?  I'm not saying it's a good idea.  I just want to understand.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on April 01, 2020, 11:59:55 AM
I see that concern too.
NOT about Buck coming, that's so overdue and wonderful!

I just don't get the immediate planning to invite virus refugees on a list from Hol. Who may be asymptomatic carriers, who may not connect well in the very delicate emotional ecosystem that has happened on your mountain including many meltdowns and a lot of pain for you.

Could it not JUST be Buck for a while, until you two have that time there together?

Does it HAVE to be command central, or compound central, for all these extra Hol-people?

If it makes you happy, then it's the right thing to do. I'm just concerned you may be "people project-ing" yourself right back into overload.

I keep thinking, whose mountain is this, anyway?

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on April 01, 2020, 05:52:21 PM
OK -- clarifying first --

Hol does have a list; but she's not inviting the whole list. At the moment, John, who's been here supporting her & helping me, has been here since October. Not constantly, because he has done day trips, up until January or so. M, the GF, is just one more person - and worth it for her level-headedness, creativity, industriousness and tact. And she NEEDS this space and quiet too. It's a good fit.

I'll bop back to my thread for the rest. This is enough derailing over here!  ;)
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on April 01, 2020, 10:02:10 PM
Got it.
M-the-GF sounds terrific, and what a boon to have a female peer with you.

:)
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 02, 2020, 11:24:38 AM
Someone to plan garden and planting with sounds really good.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 02, 2020, 05:30:59 PM
Saw T on WhatsApp yesterday.

She walked me through a session...
find the discomfort in my body.... shoulders felt hitched up 3 levels.
Name it.
Breath into it....
check to see.... is it still there? 
Yup, but pressing into the roof of my mouth now.....
 All connected.

Shift focus to place in body that feels neutral.... hands for me.

Breathe into hands.... focus only on them..... and breathing.

How does that feel?
Pins and needles in hands.  Electrical shots hitting left index finger painfully....
check shoulders and roof of mouth again. 

Completely normal... pressure gone.

Coming back to our senses is a true thing we cultivate in our minds and bodies.

The more often we do it, the easier it gets to maintain it.

We can see the forest and the trees and we can see the filed and the pebbles.

Spaciousness... emotional distance.... detachment.... putting stories on the shelf... and seeing what is sans expectation and need to control what is. 

 





Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 03, 2020, 01:36:55 PM
My really lovely T sent this along yesterday.

I think it will resonate with all of us.
Lighter


_________________________________________________________________
The daughter-in-law of Charlie and Darlene Stewart, both senior students of my teacher, mentors to me, and members of my Buddhist Sangha, recently wrote to Charlie to inquire, “What does your mindfulness practice teaching say about the current state of the country?”

This is Charlie’s response:

Here is my best shot at addressing your question.
Mindfulness is bringing awareness to an object, question, or situation for the purpose of viewing the object in reality “as it is.” Seeing something “as it is” means seeing it free from stories, memories, habit reactions, guilt, shame, or resentment from the past and free from stories, anxiety, and fear about the future. This is what is meant by being mindful in the present moment.

The mind is conditioned to reference the past and anticipate the future to know what to do, but in doing so, it distorts the view of reality as it really is and often torments itself with nightmarish projections. We practice consciously stopping the grasping at thoughts of past and future and calming the mind to be stable as possible to see as clearly as possible what is really going on. As the dust of the thinking mind clears, comprehension and understanding from a wiser source of mind surfaces and our actions fit the situation more effectively.

A mind that is settled in the present moment has a greater sense of being safe, and taking care of business.
In our present situation, we cannot see the virus. Our reactions are not about the virus. They are about what we are being told about the virus and the behavior of other people. What we are told will vary with the fear and stress level of the people who are talking to us and our conditioning from the past.

We become mindful so we can listen without fear and appropriately apply our common sense, experience, and learning to the tangible conditions of the present moment. We don’t throw out our experience and knowledge from the past but with mindfulness we examine its validity, its limits, and usefulness in this present situation. To guide us further in our actions we might ask ourselves whether the intended behavior will be beneficial to ourselves and others.

Love,
Charlie
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on April 03, 2020, 01:56:07 PM
Resonate it does! Thanks, Lighter.

So wise and so calm.

It's like being as human as you can, without the panic.

Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 03, 2020, 02:21:03 PM

   Hi, Hops:
I'm sitting on the computer, paying bills, and catching up on emails while every once in a while glancing outside on this glorious sunny day.  I wish I had the enjoyment you and Tupp are experiencing right now.  I just don't.

I just read the following and will now breath into the discomfort I'm experiencing and see what it has to say.

It's nice to read your posts and Tupp's posts.  Putting in your entire garden!

Lighter
   


The Wisdom of Surrender

BY MADISYN TAYLOR


We all know the feeling of being repeatedly haunted by the same issue, no matter how we try to ignore it, avoid it, or run away from it. Sometimes it seems that we can get rid of something we don't want by simply pushing it away. Most of the time, the more we push away, the more we get pushed back. There are laws of physics and metaphysics that explain this phenomenon, which is often summed up in this pithy phrase: That which you resist persists.

Resistance tends to strengthen the energies it attempts to oppose by giving them power and energy to work against. Additionally, resistance keeps us from learning more about what we resist. In order to fully understand something, we must open to it enough to receive its energy; otherwise, we remain ignorant of its lessons. There is a Tibetan story of a monk who retreats to meditate in a cave only to be plagued by demons. He tries everything--chasing, fighting, hiding--to get the demons out of his cave, but the thing that finally works is surrender. He simply lets them have their way with him and only then do they disappear.

Now, this wisdom must be applied practically. We are not meant to get ourselves physically injured. Instead, this story speaks of how, in essence, our demons are inside of us. What plagues and pursues us on an inner level has a way of manifesting itself in our environment in the form of people, events, and issues that appear to be beyond our control. But all these external expressions are reflections of our insides, and it is inside ourselves that we can safely experiment with surrendering to what we fear and dislike. It may feel scary, and we may find ourselves in the company of a lot of resistance as we begin the process of opening to what we fear. But the more we learn to surrender, and the more the demons that plague us disappear in the process, the more courageous we will become.
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Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on April 03, 2020, 03:16:49 PM
Lighter,
I think there's something very wise about the way you're seeking spiritual stories and principles to guide you through the fear.

There's no magic incantation to fix all of this, but reminding yourself often of the fact that there is kindness, and wisdom, and eternal human creativity and oneness, really does help.

I think it helps, too, to recognize that we can control what we can control, and as much as we are practicing intelligent controls right now, the biggest thing to practice after safety measures, is peace and release.

Peace and release.

You really are doing all you can. Once you have done the next necessary task before you, see if you can move to the following moment of peace. You can embrace that peace as eagerly as you have been embracing preparations.

Inner peace has reached people on battlegrounds, in ICUs, after shock or grief, in the middle of tugging a weed out of moss.

In silence and even in inactivity, peace can come.
When vigilance and distractions are momentarily suspended, peace.

You can't grasp peace. It's ungraspable.

But you can let it in.


Sending you some,
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on April 03, 2020, 03:26:43 PM
Lighter, I think it is quite unusual to be having a good time in the midst of a global pandemic :)  For me, it is quite literally the first time in nearly twenty years that I've been able to rest repeatedly - not just the odd hour here or there or a day every now and again but day after day after day.  No stress, no hassle (a little earlier in the week but that's been put to rest now) and choices.  I never usually have choices about what I do next or how I spend my time.  Decisions are made for me by the endless momentum so it's been amazing for me to just have time to do something, or to do nothing, depending on how I feel.  I'm not usually able to act according to how I feel, I usually have to push on because I still need to do x, y and z before I collect son, or sort this out because we need it for tomorrow, and so on.  It's probably more normal not to feel great at the minute, because everything that's normal has been turned on its head.  That's bound to induce anxiety and discomfort, at the very least.

In terms of fear of the virus, in all honesty, I don't feel I have any.  Son and I have been inside for nearly three weeks now so if we'd picked it up before hand we should have been showing symptoms and of course, we don't have any.  We are only getting food delivered, nothing else, and that's only once a week.  The supermarkets here have been brilliant at getting safety procedures set up and they are following strict protocols.  I'm washing everything as it comes in and packaging is going straight in the bin outside.  Son and I are both still washing our hands after each activity and before and after meals.  So I think our chances of catching anything are very, very slim.  If we stay inside until it's all over, we should be fine.  And of course, we're lucky that we can stay inside, so I will take advantage of that and focus on the safety of not going out.  It's also so much quieter here because people are staying indoors that I can relax at home, which I can't usually do.  So I think my situation is probably the reverse of other people's, but I hope you start to feel easier about it all soon xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 09, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
This day is a perfectly cool, breezy, almost warm day to work in the moss and that's just what I'm going to do.

I have the moss friend coming to see the yard AND we'll go collecting for her garden. 

I cleaned out misc stuff this morning.... trash runs soon.... making more space for living.  Lots of laundry caught up, kitchen clean and tidy, I'm ready to work on porches and outdoor shower and ready the garden for planting.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 10, 2020, 12:19:15 AM
The Heart's Intention
by Phillip Moffitt
SETTING INTENTIONS IS NOT THE SAME AS MAKING GOALS.
UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENCE CAN LEAD TO MORE SKILLFUL
LIVING AND LESS SUFFERING.
Once a month, an hour before the Sunday-evening meditation class I teach, I offer a group
interview for students who attend regularly. These interviews give them the opportunity to
ask questions about their meditation practice or about applying the dharma to daily life. In a
recent session, a yogi who dutifully meditates every morning admitted, "I must be confused
about the Buddha's teaching on right intention. I'm very good about setting intentions and
then reminding myself of them. But things don't ever seem to turn out according to those
intentions, and I fall into disappointment.
At first, I could only smile in response. What a good question! When I asked her to explain
these intentions, she proceeded to describe a number of goals for her future - to become less
tense at work, to spend more time with her family, to stabilize her finances, and more. She
was suffering from a kind of confusion that seems to afflict many bright, hardworking people:
mixing up two different life functions that are easily mistaken for each other. All of her goals
were laudable, but none would fit within the Buddha's teachings on right intention.
GOALS VS. INTENTIONS
Goal making is a valuable skill; it involves envisioning a future outcome in the world or in
your behavior, then planning, applying discipline, and working hard to achieve it. You
organize your time and energy based on your goals; they help provide direction for your life.
Committing to and visualizing those goals may assist you in your efforts, but neither of these
activities is what I call setting intention. They both involve living in an imagined future and
are not concerned with what is happening to you in the present moment. With goals, the
future is always the focus: Are you going to reach the goal? Will you be happy when you do?
What's next?
Setting intention, at least according to Buddhist teachings, is quite different than goal
making. It is not oriented toward a future outcome. Instead, it is a path or practice that is
focused on how you are "being" in the present moment. Your attention is on the everpresent
"now" in the constantly changing flow of life. You set your intentions based on understanding
what matters most to you and make a commitment to align your worldly actions with your
inner values.
As you gain insight through meditation, wise reflection, and moral living, your ability to act
from your intentions blossoms. It is called a practice because it is an ever-renewing process.
You don't just set your intentions and then forget about them; you live them every day.
Although the student thought she was focusing on her inner experience of the present
moment, she was actually focusing on a future outcome; even though she had healthy goals
that pointed in a wholesome direction, she was not being her values. Thus, when her efforts
did not go well, she got lost in disappointment and confusion. When this happened, she had
no "ground of intention" to help her regain her mental footing - no way to establish herself in
a context that was larger and more meaningful than her goal-oriented activity.
Goals help you make your place in the world and be an effective person. But being grounded
in intention is what provides integrity and unity in your life. Through the skillful cultivation of
intention, you learn to make wise goals and then to work hard toward achieving them without
getting caught in attachment to outcome. As I suggested to the yogi, only by remembering
your intentions can you reconnect with yourself during those emotional storms that cause you
to lose touch with yourself. This remembering is a blessing, because it provides a sense of
meaning in your life that is independent of whether you achieve certain goals or not.
Ironically, by being in touch with and acting from your true intentions, you become more
effective in reaching your goals than when you act from wants and insecurities. Once the yogi
understood this, she started to work with goals and intentions as separate functions. She later
reported that continually coming back to her intentions in the course of her day was actually
helping her with her goals.
Doing the Groundwork
What would it be like if you didn't measure the success of your life just by what you get and
don't get, but gave equal or greater priority to how aligned you are with your deepest values?
Goals are rooted in maya (illusion) - the illusionary world where what you want seems fixed
and unchanging but in truth is forever changing. It is in this world that mara, the inner voice
of temptation and discouragement, flourishes. Goals never fulfill you in an ongoing way; they
either beget another goal or else collapse. They provide excitement - the ups and downs of life
- but intention is what provides you with self-respect and peace of mind.
Cultivating right intention does not mean you abandon goals. You continue to use them, but
they exist within a larger context of meaning that offers the possibility of peace beyond the
fluctuations caused by pain and pleasure, gain and loss.
The Buddha's Fourth Noble Truth teaches right intention as the second step in the eightfold
path: Cause no harm, and treat yourself and others with Loving-kindness and compassion
while seeking true happiness, that which comes from being free from grasping and clinging.
Such a statement may sound naive or idealistic - a way for nuns and monks to live but not
suitable for those of us who must make our way in this tough, competitive world. But to think
this is to make the same error as the woman in my group interview.
In choosing to live with right intention, you are not giving up your desire for achievement or a
better life, or binding yourself to being morally perfect. But you are committing to living each
moment with the intention of not causing harm with your actions and words, and not
violating others through your livelihood or sexuality. You are connecting to your own sense of
kindness and innate dignity. Standing on this ground of intention, you are then able to
participate as you choose in life's contests, until you outgrow them.
Naturally, sometimes things go well for you and other times not, but you do not live and die
by these endless fluctuations. Your happiness comes from the strength of your internal
experience of intention. You become one of those fortunate human beings who know who
they are and are independent of our culture's obsession with winning. You still feel sadness,
loss, lust, and fear, but you have a means for directly relating to all of these difficult emotions.
Therefore, you are not a victim, nor are your happiness and peace of mind dependent on how
things are right now.
Misusing Good Intentions
When I offer teachings on right intention, students often ask two things: "Isn't this like
signing up for the Ten Commandments in another form?" and "What about the old saying
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions'?" First, the Ten Commandments are excellent
moral guidelines for us all, but right intention is not moral law; it is an attitude or state of
mind, which you develop gradually. As such, the longer you work with right intention, the
subtler and more interesting it becomes as a practice.
In Buddhist psychology, intention manifests itself as "volition," which is the mental factor
that most determines your consciousness in each moment. Literally, it is your intention that
affects how you interpret what comes into your mind.
Take, for example, someone who is being rude and domineering during a meeting at work. He
is unpleasant, or at least your experience of him is unpleasant. What do you notice? Do you
see his insecurity and how desperately hungry he is for control and attention? Or do you
notice only your own needs and dislike, and take his behavior personally, even though it really
has little to do with you? If you are grounded in your intention, then your response will be to
notice his discomfort and your own suffering and feel compassion toward both of you. This
doesn't mean that you don't feel irritation or that you allow him to push you around, but you
avoid getting lost in judgment or personal reaction. Can you feel the extra emotional space
such an orientation to life provides? Do you see the greater range of options for interpreting
the difficulties in your life?
As for those good intentions that lead to hell in the old adage, they almost always involve
having an agenda for someone else. They are goals disguised as intentions, and you abandon
your inner intentions in pursuit of them. Moreover, those goals are often only your view of
how things are supposed to be, and you become caught in your own reactive mind.
Mixing Motives
One issue around cultivating intention that trips up many yogis is mixed motives. During
individual interviews with me, people will sometimes confess their anguish at discovering
during meditating how mixed their motives were in past situations involving a friend or a
family member. They feel as though they're not a good person and they aren't trustworthy.
Sometimes my response is to paraphrase the old blues refrain "If it wasn't for bad luck, I
wouldn't have no luck at all." It is the same with motives; in most situations, if you didn't go
with your mixed motives, you wouldn't have any motivation at all. You would just be stuck.
The Buddha knew all about mixed motives. In the Majjhima Nikaya sutta "The Dog-Duty
Ascetic," he describes how "dark intentions lead to dark results" and "bright intentions lead to
bright results." Then he says, "Bright and dark intentions lead to bright and dark results." Life
is like this, which is why we practice. You are not a fully enlightened being; therefore,
expecting yourself to be perfect is a form of delusion.
Forget judging yourself, and just work with the arising moment. Right intention is a continual
aspiration. Seeing your mixed motives is one step toward liberation from ignorance and from
being blinded by either desire or aversion. So welcome such a realization, even though it is
painful. The less judgment you have toward yourself about your own mixed motives, the more
clearly you can see how they cause suffering. This insight is what releases the dark motives
and allows room for bright ones.
Sowing Karmic Seeds
For some people, the most difficult aspect of right intention has to do with the role it plays in
the formation of karma. The Buddha classified karma as one of the "imponderables," meaning
we can never fully understand it; attempting to do so is not fruitful. Yet we are challenged to
work with the truth that every action has both a cause and a consequence.
The primary factor that determines karma is intention; therefore, practicing right intention is
crucial to gaining peace and happiness. In Buddhist teachings, karma refers to "the seed from
action." This means that any word or action is either wholesome or unwholesome and
automatically plants a seed of future occurrence that will blossom on its own accord when the
conditions are correct, just as a plant grows when there is the right balance of sunshine,
water, and nutrients.
Whether an action is wholesome or unwholesome is determined by the intention that
originated it. On reflection, this is common sense. The example often given is that of a knife in
the hands of a surgeon versus those of an assailant. Each might use a knife to cut you, but one
has the intention to help you heal, while the other has the intention to harm you. Yet you
could die from the actions of either. Intention is the decisive factor that differentiates the two.
In this view, you are well served by cultivating right intention.
When I'm teaching right intention, I like to refer to it as the heart's intention. Life is so
confusing and emotionally confounding that the rational mind is unable to provide an
absolutely clear intention. What we have to rely on is our intuitive knowing, or "felt wisdom."
In the Buddha's time, this was referred to asbodhichitta, "the awakened mind-heart."
It is said that a karmic seed may bloom at one of three times: immediately, later in this
lifetime, or in a future life. Conversely, what is happening to you at each moment is the result
of seeds planted in a past life, earlier in this life, or in the previous moment. Whatever your
feelings about past lives, the latter two are cause-andeffect phenomena that you recognize as
true. But here is a thought to reflect on that is seldom mentioned: Whatever is manifesting
itself in your life right now is affected by how you receive it, and how you receive it is largely
determined by your intention in this moment.
Imagine that you will have a difficult interaction later today. If you are not mindful of your
intention, you might respond to the situation with a harmful physical action - maybe because
you got caught in your fear, panic, greed, or ill will. But with awareness of your intention, you
would refrain from responding physically. Instead, you might only say something unskillful,
causing much less harm. Or if you have a habit of speaking harshly, with right intention you
might only have a negative thought but find the ability to refrain from uttering words you
would later regret. When you're grounded in your intention, you are never helpless in how
you react to any event in your life. While it is true that you often cannot control what happens
to you, with mindfulness of intention you can mitigate the effects of what occurs in terms of
both the moment itself and what kind of karmic seed you plant for the future.
Developing Resolve
Buddhist teachings suggest that there are certain characteristics called paramis, or
perfections, you must develop before you can ever achieve liberation. One of these qualities,
right resolve, has to do with developing the will to live by your intentions. Through practicing
right resolve, you learn to set your mind to maintaining your values and priorities, and to
resist the temptation to sacrifice your values for material or ego gain. You gain the ability to
consistently hold your intentions, no matter what arises.
Right intention is like muscle - you develop it over time by exercising it. When you lose it, you
just start over again. There's no need to judge yourself or quit when you fail to live by your
intentions. You are developing the habit of right intention so that it becomes an unconscious
way of living - an automatic response to all situations. Right intention is organic; it thrives
when cultivated and wilts when neglected.
Not long ago, the yogi gave me an update on her efforts to practice right intention. She said
that for several years, she had pushed and pulled in her relationship, getting irritated with her
partner for not spending more time with the family and demanding that he change. One day
in meditation, she realized that this was just another example of her getting caught in wanting
more. In truth, there was nothing intrinsically wrong with his behavior. It was just that she
wanted to spend more time together than he did. She immediately stopped making demands
and was much happier.
Soon after this first realization, she found herself in a situation at work where all of her
insecurities were ignited. She was in a meeting during which an action was being proposed
that she felt was unfair, and she sensed anger rising in her. But before speaking, she left the
room to reflect.
When she returned, she was grounded in her intentions to be nonreactive, to seek out clear
understanding, and to not be attached to the outcome. This allowed her to participate in the
meeting in a calm, effective manner, saying her truth. Surprisingly, the group came to a
conclusion that, although it was not what she thought should happen, was at least something
she could live with. "Sometimes I remember to work with my intentions," she told me, "but
then at other times, I just seem to develop amnesia and completely forget the whole idea for
weeks at a time. It's like I had never been exposed to the teaching. I mean, there is nothing in
my mind but my goals. I don't even consider my intention." I assured her that it is like this for
almost everyone. It takes a long time to make right intention a regular part of your life.
At times, the benefits of acting from your intentions can seem so clear and obvious that you
vow, "I'm going to live this way from now on." Then you get lost or overwhelmed and
conclude that it is more than you can do. Such emotional reactions, while understandable,
miss the point. If you make right intention a goal, you are grasping at spiritual materialism.
Right intention is simply about coming home to yourself. It is a practice of aligning with the
deepest part of yourself while surrendering to the reality that you often get lost in your
wanting mind.
There are only two things you are responsible for in this practice: Throughout each day, ask
yourself if you are being true to your deepest intentions. If you're not, start doing so
immediately, as best as you're able. The outcome of your inquiry and effort may seem modest
at first. But be assured, each time you start over by reconnecting to your intention, you are
taking one more step toward finding your own authenticity and freedom. In that moment, you
are remembering yourself and grounding your life in your heart's intention. You are living the
noble life of the Buddha's teachings.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 10, 2020, 07:24:01 PM
Clothes washer was shut down when I woke up this morning.  Things were going so well, too.  I called the repair guy and he'll be out Monday or Tuesday to look at washer and the stove top.... replace one of the heating elements.  Maybe he'll have a better stove for me instead.  This one is out of production, but has a downdraft, which I need.  Maybe I can find a newer one for the same money as a new heating element.  I guess repair guys are considered essential workers, cause he's very busy.

The new moss friend texted her day was going really well.  Yesterday she was upset over something she resolved. Helping her is like working on a lovely Japanese garden....bc her's is very Japanese, while mine is more of a mountain wood moss garden.  It's more creativity, more interest and more fun. 

I think it might go down to freezing tonight.  It was cold this morning so put a pot of ham and bean soup to cook..... will make GF cornbread from King Auther SO GOOD. 

Also made a Szechuan noodle dish with pork.... there's enough food for several days.   I can focus on other things this weekend.

Happy Good Friday... Happy Easter.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on April 11, 2020, 04:47:31 AM
Clothes washer was shut down when I woke up this morning.  Things were going so well, too.  I called the repair guy and he'll be out Monday or Tuesday to look at washer and the stove top.... replace one of the heating elements.  Maybe he'll have a better stove for me instead.  This one is out of production, but has a downdraft, which I need.  Maybe I can find a newer one for the same money as a new heating element.  I guess repair guys are considered essential workers, cause he's very busy.

The new moss friend texted her day was going really well.  Yesterday she was upset over something she resolved. Helping her is like working on a lovely Japanese garden....bc her's is very Japanese, while mine is more of a mountain wood moss garden.  It's more creativity, more interest and more fun. 

I think it might go down to freezing tonight.  It was cold this morning so put a pot of ham and bean soup to cook..... will make GF cornbread from King Auther SO GOOD. 

Also made a Szechuan noodle dish with pork.... there's enough food for several days.   I can focus on other things this weekend.

Happy Good Friday... Happy Easter.

Lighter

Ah I hope he can fix or replace it, Lighter, it's such a pain when those things break, they're so essential.  The food sounds yummy, and so do the moss gardens!  I am picturing you with your moss friend sitting in moss eating nice food with washing blowing on the line after the machine is fixed :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 14, 2020, 06:42:36 PM
Wash machine needs replacing.  Could fix it....control panel going.  The bearings making funny noises too.  Maybe 800.00 in parts alone.  That's nuts.  Will look for another very soon.....and shop for a few groceries when I do.

Repair guy will check on stove parts and get back to me, I've been checking parts and they're super pricey.  Might look for newer stove. 

The moss is happy for the rain, but covered in storm debris.  I'm working in short bursts.  It's not bad. It's not feeling good either.

Lighter





Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on April 14, 2020, 10:13:03 PM
Wash machine needs replacing.  Could fix it....control panel going.  The bearings making funny noises too.  Maybe 800.00 in parts alone.  That's nuts.  Will look for another very soon.....and shop for a few groceries when I do.

Repair guy will check on stove parts and get back to me, I've been checking parts and they're super pricey.  Might look for newer stove. 

The moss is happy for the rain, but covered in storm debris.  I'm working in short bursts.  It's not bad. It's not feeling good either.

Lighter

Ah, Lighter, it's so frustrating when big things break down at the same time, especially when they're such essential things.  Can you still use them both in the meantime or are they not working at all?  Difficult as well when parts and labour are more than a new item.

I hope you can sort the storm debris out and get the moss back the way you want it soon xx xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on April 14, 2020, 11:15:56 PM
Lighter,
I hope you can float in that not-bad, not-good place and try out a state of trust...

Life is here. Change is here.

All will continue and all will be well.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 15, 2020, 06:37:04 PM
Oh, just when I was thinking about worrying about appliances..... something popped up and gave me true perspective.

So, I'm not worrying about the appliances. 

Instead I've arranged for the boy's mother to pick him up in the morning so as to NOT have him on my plate any longer.  I kept him much longer than was supposed.  I  feel obligated to get my household and life back to where I'm comfortable again. 

I've done that, without discussing it with the young people, and now dd is making her adjustments around the boy's whining/manipulative anger/silences/questioning her feeling for him... and she's really uncomfortable with it.

I wish I'd had the benefit of SEEING healthy boundaries put in place when I was a teenager.... sans highly charged emotions.

As I move through this process I recognize my father's voice.... and all the emotions he brought to every table. 

I recognize my teen self..... and I listen to HER voice... and shut down my father's voice. 

I will be calm. 
I will give my child agency over her body, choices and consequences, which isn't what my father did, btw.

I have my own business to attend to, and that's all I have to figure out....\
HUGE relief.

Lighter




Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 15, 2020, 07:26:30 PM
I am SO comfortable with my choices today.

I am SO happy to take charge and DO what I need to do without navel-gazing up dell and downhill everyone else's reactions and desires... whew.

Not.



My.



Circus.

Not my clowns.

Huge relief.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on April 16, 2020, 02:38:16 AM
Well done, Lighter :)  It's an unprecedented time and we all need to make adjustments as we go along.  I hope things settle for you.  And that the dryer and stove get fixed even though you're not worrying about them anymore :) Lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 17, 2020, 10:05:11 AM
The boy left yesterday.  His mom came, we exchanged seeds, had a lovely chat and they went on their way. 

I shopped... oldest dd went with, but stayed in the car... keeping me on track with lists and being safe.  It was a nice day and was good to be out and about with her, but I wasn't feeling very good about being in public, wearing the gear or keeping up with wiping things down. 

Afterwards I spent 3 hours harvesting moss from a yard about to be covered with mulch. SO MUCH AMAZING moss mixed together.  Perfect for new friend's yard.   We filled 8 large containers and could have filled that many more.  Much of the time was spent pulling weeds from what we harvested, honestly.  I might help her pull more weeds and plant today. It's beautiful weather for that.

The lady getting the mulch has lovely moss features in her yard.   She's planted moss under a tree.... in between the roots... just lovely with little stones for borders.  It was a treat.  She put a moss spiral in her front yard, but one moss ate the other and ruined it pretty quickly.  She also went to see the Moss lady in our area and bought her book, as did I when I started mossing.  She showed me how she uses a little flat shovel, which was new to me... usually I use smaller tools and my hands for everything.  The upshot is.... the gal new to mossing learned a lot about harvesting moss, stacking it, weeding it before planting and keeping it alive till you get to it.   

 It was interesting to have conversations that flowed SO easily.   We had so much in common.  The artist insists I select one of her paintings to thank me, and wants to have little gatherings at each of our houses to share what we're creating/have created with the moss... outdoor showers..... the perennials, etc.  I wouldn't mind sharing and trading Hosta with them.  Getting advice and giving advice.  The new mosser has big projects to plan and I've made about every mistake there is to make with a moss yard.   It's exciting,  bc her husband is a hard worker and I don't have to do the  work... mostly speaking about moving stones and leveling a large area.... scraping it.... creating a clean slate. 

The husband completely bought into mossing, and they enjoy it together.   It's nice, bc we all have such different yards.  I gave the new mosser 2 substantial flowering pear trees I don't have enough sun for.  The husband is addicted to planting trees, and lighting them.   It's fun..  he sounds like he walked out of the movie FARGO.... such a heavy accent.   I'm pretty sure I can get some help on some of my projects and exchange work I do well at their place.   

Last night the girls and I spent time together.... they were super helpful with groceries, planning meals.... we laughed a lot and had fun.   I watched COCO with oldest dd... youngest got bored with it, but oldest dd loves that movie with all the wonder of a young child...  very sweet.  It felt nice to have the house boy free.  The loft was restored to sacred space yesterday and I'm enjoying it now.  I have energy to work on the upstairs bathroom, maybe paint the trim around my window, and finish up some trim in the dining room that needs more caulk and a coat of paint. 

I talked about my stored wooden Japanese soaking tub with the mossing gals too.  It would fit in the outdoor shower or in either bathroom.  Lots to think about.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 18, 2020, 11:29:54 PM
It;s become necessary to delve into the concept of karma.  I was thinking about it quite a lot.

T said there's no such things as evil or sin.... as she's come to terms with karma.....just light and the absence of light.

Those harming others are in very deep pain themselves. For all practical purposes, they're already in hell, if there is a hell.   It's very dark inside them.  Very little light.

The more luminous beings are more evolved souls.  Souls return to the earth to complete lessons, as necessary, until they've learned enough.... gathered enough light....  they don't have to return when they've reached a certain point.  I guess they're free and living fully in the moment.  Even if we understand that for a second, before we die, if we understand it at the right time.... we don't have to come back.  Whew, again.

That was comforting to me.  Not having to return.

She went on to talk about lack of self-care really being about destroying oneself... eating the wrong foods... not exercising.... not caring for our inner world, etc.  Self-destruction.

Karma isn't about punishment, or being punished. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 20, 2020, 07:05:34 AM
I wish I'd sent the boy back home on the 26th of March, or sooner. 

Sooner.

I'm smacking myself in the forehead wondering why the heck I didn't DO THAT.

I think it's bc I thought youngest dd was entertained and less bored, but.... it was something I wish I'd done differently.

I'm not in charge of her boredom or entertainment. 

I'm in charge of this household and how it runs.

It seems so simple now.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on April 20, 2020, 08:57:02 AM
Be kind to yourself, Lighter :)  It's an unprecedented time.  You were doing a very sweet, kind, helpful thing, as you so often do.  From bits and pieces you've written on here it sounds as if your kindness may not have been reciprocated.  But - we live and learn.  He's gone now, you've got your loft back and hopefully some time and head space.  Perhaps once the washer and cooker problems have been sorted as well things might settle a bit more.  It's a tough time so don't give yourself a hard time.  I would be struggling if son wasn't so utterly content in his man cave doing nothing but exactly what he wants :)  Lol.  You did a good, kind thing and now you can be good and kind to you :)  (((((((((((((((((((Lighter ))))))))))))))))))))))))))) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on April 20, 2020, 12:10:27 PM
Well said, Tupp! I agree.

And I love that mossing has become a verb, Lighter.
I moss
You moss
He/she moss
We moss
Y'all moss
They moss

Something unique in that species really speaks to you in a lovely way.
And mossing is bringing friending, too.

Enjoy,
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 20, 2020, 01:35:25 PM
Hops and TuppL

Yes, moss is bringing new friendship and connection. 

This new gal has an art studio filled with things I have all in big armoirs in garage ..... the same sorts of things.  She does the same sort of art, but full time with gusto and I love it.  Maybe we can do art together too!
She collects the same huge pine cones from the wood, bark, gears and gadgets, bobs and bits.... lovely papers, the same paints and glues and root starting powders... that's for gardening, but also the same broken pottery and pots and MOSS! 

Tupp... I'm more in awareness than anything.  Not criticizing myself, but SEEING the options were there all along.  The only thing between them and me was ME, and that's important content.  It's time I see it, I guess, and I'm grateful.  I'm doing my best.  Thanks for the reminder to be super kind to myself, always.   Sometimes it slips away.

::nodding::.

I'm about to put the first load of wash in, then go out into the yard since the rain stopped and it warmed up a bit.  MOSS loves the rain.

::nodding::

I'll brush my hands through sporophytes and wonder why I don't do it every single day, bc it's pure joy.  Sometimes new friend L will point out something amazing I walk by all the time in my yard.  I do the same in hers.  It's a reminder to stop, drop the thing we're thinking about...usually the future... and just tune into now. 

You know what?  I think I used to live this way all the time.

I notice oldest dd looks up and smiles when I'm happy and present in the moment.  This has been a pattern since that smart little monkey noticed I'd picked up the weight of the world and put down the joy she was used to experiencing with me in 2006.

What a journey.  What a long roundabout way to get back to it. 

Lighter



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on April 20, 2020, 02:05:41 PM
Don't you worry! ANY time we reconnect to our present selves, in peace, is the right time.

I think I used to live this way all the time.

That's beautiful.
It means you KNOW that your inner child who was able to be present and experience peace and happiness, is there.

Yay!

Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: CB123 on April 20, 2020, 06:46:25 PM
I love your moss stories, Lighter.

CB
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 22, 2020, 03:19:17 PM
: )CB: )Moss: )  I have the number for a neighbor with a perfect moss yard, like mine.  They're wondering why I haven't called them yet, but I'm not quite  ready to talk about the yellow spots I'm dealing with.  They might know how to solve it, but explaining it is tedious so I'm putting it off.

Hops:

About living in a child's headspace..... or glorying in present moments completely... smiling to the sun with joy bc it's warm and on our face.... those moments were/are amazing.  I've noticed people are drawn us when we're IN that space.... like beacons of light.  The warmth flows through and out of... beckoning others to touch it, IME.  That choice to focus on peace and joy is attractive.

As I write this I notice baby girl pug is LISTENING to me for the first time.... really listening.  I told her not to bark, after two barks, and she's being very still, seated, just watching people talk nearby.  Normally she'd be barking and I'd be squirting her with the water bottle and it would just be a wet pug battle. 

Not today, for whatever reason.  Maybe it's how I asked. Maybe she's tired of getting squirted.  Whatever it is, the hummingbirds arebuzzing and the pug is enjoying the back porch as much as I am.... in relative quiet FOR ONCE. 

Now she's making little frog gulpy noises.... tiny..... and looking at me. I just shake my head and she goes back to looking at the talkers, very still.  Very quiet.  I feel like we're both having a huge day of learning and acceptance.

Youngest dd started stripping rust from a big industrial cart yesterday.   She put on work clothes,  safety gear and covered the thing in naval jelly.  WHO knew it wasn't water-soluble?  Did you know?  I had no idea, and what a PITA.  DD toddled off for a nap, completely dejected, after trying to get what had been bright florescent pink goo, turned into what acted like dried white car wax, OFF with the hose and scrubbing sponge.  She'd eaten ONE potato chip, in an effort to feel better, jammed a sharp bit painfully into her gum, between her teeth, driven it farther up with floss, which is where she decided to retreat into sleep (I was getting more naval jelly) What a nightmare!  How did things go so wrong? 

Neighbor, the same one who suggested the naval jelly, said we needed gasoline... GASOLINE to get it off.  Instead of getting out the gas, I let dd sleep, got out the Dawn dish soap, had a good scrub with that, THEN wiped it down with mineral spirits.... I'm not pouring gasoline all over the place... that is NUTS, IMO.   The moss wouldn't like it either.

I didn't want DD to have a complete fail on the project after she'd worked so hard and committed so deeply, in happiness, and hope.  I guess I could SEE this as me caretaking her feelings and experience, but I'm aware and willing to deal with this bump in the road as it teaches her and remind me....

90% research.
10% execution.  We both got a very up close look at the importance of that rule.

I also found a product from Rustoleum that turns RUST into a stable paintable surface.  I knew these products exist, but thought it was in huge quantities from marine products.... this is a small bottle from Ace Hardware.  Who knew?  Turns out the rust has to be ALL RUST, not spotty or mixed with good metal and paint, which is what we have.  I think the patient is divine, btw.  I'd love to clear coat it and call it done, but DD wants smooth bubblegum pink so, I'll prep for that then get her back on track doing it herself.

New moss friend L is overwhelmed planting many containers of beautiful moss we harvested for her use.  She's putting it down where I would have put it, guess it was obvious, but she's not happy with it, and struggling with weeds and grass.  I get it.  Been there, done that.  I'm letting her deal with that on her own.  Maybe we'll play in my yard next, to get her mind off hers for a bit.  I think she realizes she should have scraped the area, killed the roots, put down weed fabric THEN put down the moss.  It's so much work, but pays off down the road.  Just jumping is what we all do, I guess.  It IS overwhelming to have so much moss waiting.  I've done that too.  Getting moss turns out to be the easy part.  The planning and prep work are more important, turns out.

TODAY DD's cart will be bubblegum pink and ready for pretty dresses in DD's room.

Sweet girl pug still seated, watching neighbors, still and quiet.  I'm not sure what to think about that...

 HUMMINGBIRD!  I just saw it in reflected int he window!  I love hummingbirds: )

Lighter

 

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on April 22, 2020, 06:45:23 PM
Pug peace!

Moss magic!

Pink industrial cart!

Sounds like a lovely lovely time, Lighter.
So glad for you.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 22, 2020, 10:39:24 PM
Oh, that cart would have looked so amazing clear coated!  It's honest to God pepto pink..... solid.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on April 24, 2020, 03:31:09 AM
That sounds so nice, Lighter, is the cart finished now?  I have started many, many projects like that, only to find out I've bought the wrong paint stripper/rust remover/sanding paper or whatever it might be.  It is dejecting and discouraging so I think it's great that you got it to a point where DD can finish it off.  And I hope she can get that bit of crisp out of her gum!  That sounds really painful, those little, niggly things are so irritating.  I hope it comes out easily.  And little pug!  Aw, she sounds so cute, our friends have a pug and he's the dearest little thing, just has to be on someone's lap the whole time :)  I hope the moss is going well, too (and no, I don't think pouring gasoline over it would have helped!  Zoiks!) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 24, 2020, 10:01:09 AM
The crisp must have softened and stopped bugging dd, bc she hasn't brought it up in a while.

The cart is pink, but dd holding off on final high gloss clear coat, bc of humidity. We'll open the garage and finish up once the sun comes out.  I think that's today!  So proud of dd thinking it through and waiting. 

The pug had a super hard day yesterday.  Vet tech came to clip her toes and drain her anal glands on the porch.  I stayed inside and peeked a bit.... lots of scampering around, trying to catch the pug. 

::shaking head::

In the end.... pug 1, vet tech 1

Glands emptied
 2 toenails remain

I know this... that vet tech student earned every penny.

Lighter



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on April 24, 2020, 11:28:45 AM
Eww, Lighter, bless her, I think "emptying anal glands" has got to be pretty near my list of jobs that I never want to have to do!  Bless her, it's done at least, and most toe nails clipped has got to be better than no toenails.  And DD has almost finished the cart!  Yay!  Aw, that will look so nice once it's all done and has pride of place in her room :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 26, 2020, 07:26:04 PM
We made a triple batch of pork and shrimp dumplings... they were wonderful and we shared them with the neighbors we have doggy playdates with.  We're going to make turkey and shrimp dumplings next.

I helped the one neighbor unload 2 pick up trucks of mulch, and retrieved his hummingbird feeder from the corner of his roof.  It hasn't been filled the last 2 years bc of their health problems.  THIS year it's hummingbird central.  I want that feeder out so they have enjoy them as much as I am.  SO many hummers..... they sit in the hemlock trees and buzz back and forth to the feeder.  It's crazy busy.

This same neighbor, the husband, is the one who's coming back from catastrophic health problems.  Today he asked me to teach him to throw punches correctly.  I was happy to agree.  Will see how that goes.  I let the girls know they'll be expected to participate..... they know bribes are on the way. 

Grrrrr..... I'm hungry.  Again. 

Is anyone else hungry all the darned time?

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 26, 2020, 07:54:38 PM
Neighbor and I planted seeds from 10 herbs and veggies in a set up he researched.  We'll each have 3 to 6 plants from each...  depending how it goes.  He has special seed starting soil and a big clear plastic container with clear plastic lid, sort of like a greenhouse.  Since he has one eye and ligament damage in his hands he can't do things like that easily and I really enjoy doing things like that.  We're sharing seeds so it feels good in all directions. 

I plan on planting directly into the soil very soon.... will plant pumpkins, watermelons, peppers, squash, basil, cilantro, oregano and beans.... still looking for Thai basil.  I'm thinking about further amending soil with rich dark dirt from bottom of leaf pile next door.

 I have Poppy seeds sewn already..... as tiny as paprika specks.... teeny weeny.

Today was glorious out... sunny and cool.  Now it's rainy and cold... windy, so back indoors.

I'm looking forward to moving the pink cart into dd's room this evening... if she gets some energy back. 

Lighter


Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on April 27, 2020, 02:50:26 AM
I am hungry all the time, Lighter!  But I'm not cooking as much nice stuff as you, I'm too lazy :)  Being surrounded by hummingbirds  sounds lovely :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 27, 2020, 04:43:23 AM
I'm hungrier in the evenings, Tupp. 

Since we aren't cooking rice and lentils and beans all the time I feel better, but I sometimes hurt myself with food...meaning I eat too much.... too much dairy and sugar.

The neighbor is pushing me to teach him to punch properly.... he's come so far, but..... watching him stretch a bit was a wake-up call.... he's still so compromised.  Some ligaments and muscles were destroyed... larger ones I didn't know about.  I can build him up, and make his stronger.  That appeals ot me.  I wonder if that's a healthy thing or a codependent thing. 

It feels like a healthy thing for both of us, but it informs me...... sometimes good feelings set off alarm bells for me. 

Maybe part of it was how hard he was pushing me.  How little he understands about nutrition, but believes he knows a lot..... his idea of good nutrition is not drinking cokes all day if he's going to drink beer in the afternoon, so....... it's a bit frustrating and I'm really not in a mood to explain or discuss it.  I was impatient with him today when he kept on and on.  He's one of those type A driven men who acts, and doesn't listen.  I don't mind having the discussions if it goes both ways.  I don't think think he can hear me.  That dampens my mood to train him.  I won't be lectured.  I will bounce ideas and experiences back and forth.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on April 27, 2020, 04:51:40 AM
I'm hungrier in the evenings, Tupp. 

Since we aren't cooking rice and lentils and beans all the time I feel better, but I sometimes hurt myself with food...meaning I eat too much.... too much dairy and sugar.

The neighbor is pushing me to teach him to punch properly.... he's come so far, but..... watching him stretch a bit was a wake-up call.... he's still so compromised.  Some ligaments and muscles were destroyed... larger ones I didn't know about.  I can build him up, and make his stronger.  That appeals ot me.  I wonder if that's a healthy thing or a codependent thing. 

It feels like a healthy thing for both of us, but it informs me...... sometimes good feelings set off alarm bells for me. 

Maybe part of it was how hard he was pushing me.  How little he understands about nutrition, but believes he knows a lot..... his idea of good nutrition is not drinking cokes all day if he's going to drink beer in the afternoon, so....... it's a bit frustrating and I'm really not in a mood to explain or discuss it.  I was impatient with him today when he kept on and on.  He's one of those type A driven men who acts, and doesn't listen.  I don't mind having the discussions if it goes both ways.  I don't think think he can hear me.  That dampens my mood to train him.  I won't be lectured.  I will bounce ideas and experiences back and forth.

Lighter

(((((((((Lighter)))))))))))))))))))  I don't think you need another demanding man in your life.  You just got rid of loft boy.  You have your girls, your moss, cute pug girl (although noisy sometimes, it seems).  The beach house will, no doubt, continue to cause problems and need work doing.  Point him in the direction of some good videos or a professional instructor (people here are carrying on with all sorts of one to one sessions via Zoom or something similar - I'd guess there will be people there who are doing the same thing).  Maybe tell him he can call you if he has specific question.  He's not yours to fix, particularly if he's refusing to engage with the basics like nutrition.  And space?  Can you do all this whilst keeping 2 metres between you at all times?  If he does injure himself you'd need to help him up, presumably?  It's not a risk worth taking, in my opinion.  Concentrate on having a nice time for yourself, and your girls.  You don't need to fix anybody else xx xx xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on April 27, 2020, 10:58:54 AM
Everything Tupp said rings wise to me too, Lighter.

I don't know if these things are codependent or not, but I notice you often express things as you being in charge of fixing something/someone, and in that teacher/guide/mentor/therapist role.

What that says to me is that you have a lot to share and to offer, whether it's about moss or food or EMDR or alternative cures or decor or or or or....

And sharing knowledge is wonderful, and working intensely and physically side by side (well, six feet by six feet) is also wonderful. BUT FOR YOU, FOR NOW, NOT WITH MALES. At least, I'd recommend, not with males who have access to your homes or property (insane contractor) or who might not respect boundaries (Frenchman) or who live so close that misunderstandings could cause long-term friction or stress (neighbor).

I think you are safest approaching entanglements with males only after deep work on how tangled you can get, with a therapist. And then, only safely well away from your home and your personal life.

Like, meeting for tea in a public place once the pandemic's over. (I know, sounds simpery. But we want you to stay safe and not have a resurgence of agony over male aggression.)

You might be horny! Understandable! But please don't take risks with men who know too much about where you live and how you are and such, imo. Or who might be tuning into YOUR energies that you may not realize you're expressing with them. Especially such physical stuff...you've observed before how men react to a sweaty physical woman who's NOT focused on them.

This doesn't seem like a good season for those flirtations (not intentional flirtations, just hanging your male-attractant energies out there).

Cluck cluck mother henning....
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on April 28, 2020, 10:03:47 AM
Richters (out of Canada) has Thai Basil seeds Lighter. It's simply

richters.com
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 28, 2020, 05:20:44 PM
Thanks for the Thai basil info, Amber. 

Hops, the guy I'm posting about lives 2 doors away and is the one-eyed married neighbor convalescing himself back to health.

The other neighbor I've been posting about... the one helping me with the washing machine install who lives a few streets away, is married as well.  Our dogs have regular playdates so we see each other several times a week if not more often.  I just put up a hummingbird feeder for the guy 2 houses away.  We planted seeds together.  He loaned me his tiller.  I helped empty 2 truckloads of mulch onto his property... I can have all the free mulch I want IF I wanted it. 

No emotional or romantic entanglements to worry about.

About the boxing lessons.  That won't work, bc of the 6 foot distancing thing.  I wish I could hold pads for him.... bc it's walking medication for me.  I'm good at it.  I'm a good teacher.  I get a good work out holding the pads BUT the 6 foot distancing thing.... thanks for reminding me Tupp.  It's a problem AND I don't have to worry about any other problems that might pop up with that much face to face time.

I'm glad he's feeling strong enough to want to HELP me into a good physical routine.  The thing is, I don't need his help and I didn't ask for it.  I can certainly handle that, not that I SEE what was bugging me about it. He stepped on a boundary I didn't realize I needed to put in place.  He's been so lovely.  I look forward to enjoying time with him.

Lighter





Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 29, 2020, 11:01:44 PM
I used to think of discomfort and pain as messengers... something's out of balance.  Something needs to change.  I need to make a move.

Now I think of it as feedback.... something more useful than a messenger even.

That's my thought for today.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on April 30, 2020, 03:58:25 AM
I used to think of discomfort and pain as messengers... something's out of balance.  Something needs to change.  I need to make a move.

Now I think of it as feedback.... something more useful than a messenger even.

That's my thought for today.

It's a good thought to have, Lighter.  I think sometimes it's a little marker, to draw attention.  See me, see me!  I was listening to something yesterday about period pain and past experiences.  The lady was suggesting there's an energetic link between previous trauma and period pain and suggests that when the pain comes, think back to your early periods - were you supported or shamed?  Was it joyful or something you were punished for.  It was interesting and chimes with what you're saying, I think, some sort of message.  I'm going to try it during my next cycle, it certainly can't hurt :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on April 30, 2020, 12:56:19 PM
I'm interested in what comes up... as you pay attention.

About the feedback.... I realize it's usually about something I haven't accepted.

Sometimes I feel like I'm a wonky tire with a lump in it.  I grasp the concept of radical acceptance, hang on pretty well, get flipped around by something reactive... which throws me for a loop, then come back around to acceptance. 

Again.

It's getting easier, bc I understand it more deeply and experience such relief when I manage it.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on May 01, 2020, 01:18:45 PM
I'm interested in what comes up... as you pay attention.

About the feedback.... I realize it's usually about something I haven't accepted.

Sometimes I feel like I'm a wonky tire with a lump in it.  I grasp the concept of radical acceptance, hang on pretty well, get flipped around by something reactive... which throws me for a loop, then come back around to acceptance. 

Again.

It's getting easier, bc I understand it more deeply and experience such relief when I manage it.

Lighter

Yes, I struggle with acceptance as well.  I find it hard if I feel I've been wronged and the other person did nothing to right the wrong, if that makes sense.  I'm not sure why I struggle with that so much.  I would like it to be water off a duck's back but it often seems to really stick.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on May 01, 2020, 01:44:41 PM
Injustice sticks, for a long time, ime.

I think the hardest thing to learn for a child and also for adults for a very long time, even decades, is that coming to release the expectation that life will be fair, is ultimately more fair to yourself. That way you struggle and agonize less, or for not as long, over not getting pure justice. But releasing is the work, takes practice.

I don't mean yielding to resignation or fatalism or pessimism about humanity or abandoning hope of positive change. It's just releasing the perfectionism we (I) can bring to idealism, the absolute judgements we can concentrate our energy in, about what is good or evil or fair or right. As life chips away at our absolutism and ideals, I think we wind up something like the Velveteen Rabbit. He always seemed real to me.

We dream about life in black and white, but live it in the sloppy gray middle.

We shall now cease our utilization of the Royal We, which We have always found an irritant when employed by others. We acknowledge Our hypocrisy but We can't be bothered at the moment.

xxxoooo
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 02, 2020, 01:28:22 PM
LOL, Hops. You're funny and putting difficult concepts into concise sentences.  Again.

Thanks.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 05, 2020, 11:02:58 PM
New moss friend L texted for a visit today.  She returned several containers and brought me a sturdy new one as well, explaining how they drilled holes into theirs for a rope to be pulled like a big pan with a lip.  I think it's a good size for lots of things.   I'm very pleased as it also has a measure strip on it's side.  Not sure what it's for.  It looks industrial.

::swooning::

I love very useful things. 

L is lovely and her husband is one of those BIG PICTURE guys.  I hope I can have them both over for a brainstorming session on final stone and planter layout in my yard.  All 3 of our backs are in some kind of trouble right now.  We all like rocks, and moss and planting things... too heavy of things.  We reminded ourselves we aren't 30 anymore.

I really like her and again we marveled at all we have in common.  I've never had this experience before.  I'm not quite sure what to do with it, frankly.

It's certainly giving me insight into things I haven't thought about before. 

Lighter

   

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 06, 2020, 03:22:09 PM
Youngest dd had labs done today.  Everything but the actual draw is done on the computer.... checking iron levels mostly, Bs, Ds and Cs.   People wait in the parking lot till a text tells them to come inside.  Patients have to wear masks.  In and out, no problem though I did regret not tossing a "Don't touch your face" reminder to dd before she got out of the car.  There's concern.  I AM concerned. 

 I ran to Hopie, just around the corner in a not great area of downtown, which is small and noticeably shut down. This means the people out and about are mostly homeless, drug addicted, mentally ill.  The police came into the store while I was shopping and spoke to the manager....
No, they hadn't had anyone in the store making trouble today....besides the guy walking around with the uncapped hypodermic needled he filled with drinking fountain water.  The cops asked if it was the tall guy?  Yes, it was, just call them back if he shows back up. 

Holy cow..... naked men pooping, masturbating on the same nature trail an older woman was kicking dogs and cussing at a young mother with young children..... purses stolen from shopping carts, shady people casing neighborhoods in vehicles... giving different stories to different people... breaking into vehicles.   I'm not angry or complaining.... I'm noticing.  And concerned. People shooting guns with bullets ripping into trees in their neighbor's yards... just not putting up proper targets I think, but Lordy.  Some people are aggressively angry..... the drug-addicted mentally ill people and stupid neighbors are OUTSIDERS and they don't belong in their opinions.  They have zero compassion and I don't know for sure I wouldn't feel that way if they showed up on my doorstep.  Maybe I would.  Compassion would stop way short of them harming my pug or daughters, for sure. 

I suspect a smashed car window or two would dampen my compassion as well.   We used to carry food to give to people begging on the side of the road.  DOING something... if only giving them something to eat....  they don't want and might throw away or trade for booze or drugs.... was something we could do.  I'd feed them on my doorstep if they asked, but that's not what they want.  I notice I don't take this personally as some neighbors do.... it's not personal... I don't perceive it to be aimed at me, but I'm aware they'll do what they do to anyone if the opportunity presents itself.  I notice I feel pretty safe.  I'm surrounded by people who are always home.  People who care about us and pay attention to what's going on around us. 

I also notice the neighbors talking about outsiders, like they're not human beings, bothers me.  IS it their lack of compassion and would compassion be a mistake?  Likely, so I'm letting it go... just let it go.  Whew.  Better.

It got windy and dark so I ran into he garden and stupidly laid down Preen weed preventer.... which stops seeds from germinating.  I hope it stops the weeds and is GONE before I sew MY seeds.  Not sure what I was thinking.  I have to tell on myself.... I did the same in the neighbor's little patch.  He's germinating seeds outside the garden and I assumed not planting seeds, but hey..... I might have really messed up OR done him a tremendous favor that saves him lots of weeding and worrying about weeding.  Hard to say, really.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 06, 2020, 03:45:31 PM
Spoke with T today.... about things we do to STOP feeling... to comfort ourselves... to avoid tending to the injured childlike part of ourselves is where that ended up.

In a nutshell:

When we eat, drink alcohol, do drugs, etc we're throwing a wet blanket on that child.

When we stop, make a cup of tea, do yoga, ask what that feeling is about, what needs tending to... we're picking the child up and attending to it.  This is body/financial safety root chakra stuff.   

I notice I tend to eat in the evenings or sometimes too late at night when I'm tired.  That makes it more difficult to remember to notice and  tend to the feelings underneath.

   Remind myself I AM safe in the moment, and observe what's going on around me, pay attention to my breath, and engage in nurturing actions.  Put time between the feeling and reactions.  Time provides opportunity to respond.

Shifting into the limbic system... emotional brain.... or amygdala/fight for flight survival brain, means I'm less likely to SEE solutions... make good choices. 

The more I do it, the easier it gets...  like building a muscle.  Everything changes when I practice.  Chemically.  Energetically.  Physically.  Emotionally.  It can change in a second... doesn't have to be hard or take a long time.

I'm committing to doing yoga for my back..... Yoga For The Rest Of Us DVD / back care basics is the starting point... just placed my order.  Will hope to branch out from there. 

Lighter



 
 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on May 07, 2020, 06:35:19 AM
That's a good comparison, Lighter, between throwing a wet blanket on a child and nurturing them. That makes a lot of sense to me, as does repeating the new habits and building them like muscles.  Let's all continue to build our child nurturing muscles.

I hope the seed prevention stuff turns out to be good rather than not good :) Easy to do something instinctively and then realise afterwards you may have shot yourself in the foot.

I think stay away from rough neighbourhoods, Lighter.  People are going crazy; it's what some people do under pressure.  Domestic violence here is through the roof.  People are indoors all day with nothing but fear and misleading or contradictory information going around and they throw the wet blanket on the child.  And people do dehumanise other groups of people.  They want someone to blame and I'm noticing a lot here that a lot of people are talking about what other people need to do to change, in many different ways, but far fewer are talking about how they want or are willing to change to try to make what comes after this better, fairer, more sustainable.  I'm trying to only connect with the ones who are trying to do something different, even if it's just growing parsley on the window cill.  Personally, I don't think compassion is ever a mistake.  You can be compassionate and still keep your boundaries in place and keep yourself safe.  People in desperate situations do desperate things and make desperate choices.  Compassion from a distance, maybe that's the way to look at it.

I eat all sorts of crap when I'm tired, Lighter, and stressed, lonely, anxious lol, it's my answer to many problems.  And I take my foot off the gas when I feel better.  I've been doing yoga and taking Epsom salts baths each night.  Didn't bother last night because my back felt better.  I am feeling it today so that's my lesson, keep the good habits up, even when it feels like I don't need to.

Do you do any of the Yoga With Adriene stuff on YouTube?  I really like her workouts; they suit me and she has a nice, relaxed style.  And a cute dog who sometimes joins in.  Maybe you could train Pug?  Lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on May 07, 2020, 07:31:09 AM
What Tupp said. Plus:

Lighter, I think one healthy thing to do rather than allow yourself to directly face all the ugly just because you are bold enough to (your children need you safe and sane, not testing the limits right now), perhaps you could express that courage and compassion in ways that don't threaten you or add to the agitation, which I believe is revealed class conflict right now. Going out unecessarily has its messages.

Maybe one way of making that difference, while releasing any guilt you feel about your own safety and comfort, would be to donate. The energy and/or money you'd spend trying to directly and personally intervene in the disaster could be channeled instead into an effective local organization that is trying to supply and organize to help the most desperate in your community, whether they are outsiders or locals.

Does that make any sense?

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 08, 2020, 10:45:17 PM
Tupp:

I looked up Youtube vids for Yoga with Adriene.  She's adorable and her dog is pretty relaxed fellow.  Her voice is really soothing too.  I'll select a couple of her workouts and begin.  Thanks!

Tupp and Hops:

I haven't sought out rough hoods.  Rather, I've tried to support businesses I used to support weekly..... I've been to the one downtown ONCE in 2 months, and only bc it was close to the lab.  I really don't want it to go out of business.  I don't. 

I have to say this..... my gut says I'm more likely to use this as a jumping-off point for showing the girls where to find and how to deploy and use the pepper spray in the car door, rather than skirt around our regular stores.  We're NOT in what's considered a dangerous city BUT times they have changed. 

How much will I let these changes.... change me/us?  This is something I'm considering right now.

I'm not fearless. 

I'm proactive. 

I don't want to have regrets in either direction.

Lighter


Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 08, 2020, 11:19:32 PM
Tupp:

I loved the bedtime yoga with Adriene.  I'm going to do the entire thing tonight before bed. 

Also considering the 30 day yoga workout she does!

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on May 09, 2020, 06:24:03 AM
Hi Lighter,
Here's what floats up for me in case it resonates. I may be waaaaay off base. Probably am, in fact.

I know you are bold, have done martial arts for years, lived through big trauma, have had many threats from males. All that is real and ongoingly healing for you.

What comes up for me sometimes is a sense that your language over time reveals intensity about threats in many directions. So I wonder if teaching your girls to find and "deploy" pepper spray might carry, FOR THEM, a kind of fear-teaching? A threat-based orientation to life? I'm just wanting to imagine them safe and happy and still enjoying some sense of trust in the world. And maybe of confidence in themselves, which I know rationally you're also trying to teach them. And knowing how to use pepper spray certainly makes sense. Maybe it was the word "deploy" that got me. (Irrational language triggers in me.)

I don't know what it would be like to have powerful self-defense skills. If I had young girls I might enjoy letting them take judo if they sought it out (I did and it made me feel more powerful). But unless there truly is apocalypse or zombie time, which I don't think there is so far anyway, I wonder if it'll be anxiety-producing for them, to pick up on or absorb those preoccupations. Unconsciously. Some personalities are warrior types and others aren't.

Same time, I also think it's wonderful to empower the young, especially girls. So I don't know that I'm pearl-clutching over anything that makes sense.

Kids need safety and to navigate adolescence without recklessness. Kids in the newest generation are facing it all: climate, possible civil unrest, epidemics and depression-era desperation in many folks. I do think the world is more unsafe but also think that positive engagement with community is more protective than weaponry or training to fight.

Then again, I'm a physical coward. No confidence at all that I could physically defend myself against danger so my reaction is to use my radar to avoid it -- areas, people with bad vibes, situations well known to be risky. My response to the attack on my community from far-right groups was -- stay indoors, keep quiet, and don't confront. Strangers were coming and going in scary trucks with scary flags. Eventually, they went away.

I certainly feel I failed to protect my own D, and she was drawn to darkness and confrontational situations. So I'll bet that's what I'm responding from.

Barrels of salt, do take all this with barrels of salt....but it's meant with care.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on May 10, 2020, 05:47:26 AM
Tupp:

I looked up Youtube vids for Yoga with Adriene.  She's adorable and her dog is pretty relaxed fellow.  Her voice is really soothing too.  I'll select a couple of her workouts and begin.  Thanks!

Tupp and Hops:

I haven't sought out rough hoods.  Rather, I've tried to support businesses I used to support weekly..... I've been to the one downtown ONCE in 2 months, and only bc it was close to the lab.  I really don't want it to go out of business.  I don't. 

I have to say this..... my gut says I'm more likely to use this as a jumping-off point for showing the girls where to find and how to deploy and use the pepper spray in the car door, rather than skirt around our regular stores.  We're NOT in what's considered a dangerous city BUT times they have changed. 

How much will I let these changes.... change me/us?  This is something I'm considering right now.

I'm not fearless. 

I'm proactive. 

I don't want to have regrets in either direction.

Lighter

((((((((((((Lighter)))))))))))))))

I'm sorry, because I didn't explain what I was worried about very well and I haven't been clear.  My concern is the lack of hygiene if you're buying groceries from shops where people are crapping on pavements and masturbating outside, whilst wandering around filling up syringes.  This virus last on surfaces from anywhere between a few hours to several days.  It's airbourne.  It can get on to your clothes and get into your system through your mouth, nose, eyes and by you touching something someone else touched - even hours earlier.  We've lost 150 medical staff here now - that's people trained to hospital standards, following appropriate protocol, working in a sterile environment, without pre-existing medical conditions, dead - not ill from it and got better but in the ground now.  I'm following various people on Twitter and sharing information from ICU consultants, virologists, scientists, ICU nurses and so on, with paramedic friends, other parents who are used to treating multiple conditions in their kids and science brain type friends and the advice from every person is the same - stay home, and keep washing your hands.  There just isn't a safe way to go outside, at all.

We all have to go outside sometimes, I get that.  There's a balance between the possible risk of contracting the virus and going mad from isolation, poor diet, being stuck indoors with relatives, lack of exercise and so on.  Lots of people will be out and about all day and not catch it.  Lots of people will catch it, be a bit unwell and then be fine.  Many will catch it and not even know they have it, therefore passing it on to everyone else they come into contact with, directly or indirectly.  Plenty of young, fit and healthy people here are dying from it; the whole "oh it's only the sick and elderly" thing is being shown to be a myth and as I say, we've lost ICU consultants to it here - if they can catch it with all their knowledge and skill at keeping sickness at by then no-one is safe.

I get that you don't want local businesses to go under but Lighter, they're going to.  There's nothing more that any of us can do about that now.  If they deliver then getting deliveries will help them out but if they don't, you risking catching this and taking it home to your kids just isn't worth it.  You're in a similar situation to me, if you die there's no-one else there for your kids and they're at risk from the scary grandparents again.  You've got to keep yourself safe and it's not guns or pepper spray that will do that for you, it's staying home as much as possible and when you do go out, going to places that are as clean and quiet as possible.  If you get somewhere and there are naked people wandering about in the street get back in the car and go somewhere else.  It really frightens me to think of you going shopping somewhere where people are shitting on the pavement and walking around with syringes in their hands.  I've led a pretty open, varied life, I think, but I've honestly never seen anything like that and if I did I'd keep well away.  You can't save the world.  Honestly, Lighter, and I say this as your friend, and I do understand your concerns, I really do, but your girls don't need pepper spray training, they need to stay home, order in and if going out for food is the only option you need a list of safe places to visit, as early as possible in the day so there are fewer people around.  Avoidance is what's going to keep them safe right now.

You do need to let the changes change you, in my opinion, because it isn't murderers or drug addicts or homeless people you're at risk from, it's going shopping.  That thing we've all done for all of our lives without ever thinking about it or even wondering where what we're buying has come from a lot of the time, has suddenly become the most dangerous thing some of us are having to do.  It's a massive shift in what we're used to and it's huge to get our heads around but that is the change, and honestly, our response to that - if we feel we're at risk of contracting the virus - is to avoid going out wherever possible and when we do, going to the place that is cleanest, for the least amount of time possible, as infrequently as possible.  I think when we're frightened our natural instinct is to attack but in this instance I think the safest bet for anyone who is concerned is to hide. 

I'm not saying any of this in a critical or judgemental way; all of it is said because I care about you and the thought of you shopping in places where people, God love them, aren't able to follow even basic hygiene precautions really scares me.  I won't mention it again because I don't want to lecture or bang on about it but I really hope you don't go back there.

I am glad you found Yoga with Adriene :)  I love her stuff, I find it really helpful.  I really like Jason Stephenson's meditations; his anxiety ones I find particularly useful.  There is also another yoga guy -David Procyshyn - whose stuff is much more intense and serious and the videos are longer but oh my days, the release I get from them is huge.  He might be worth looking at.

Much love, Lighter!  Sorry it's a bit long.  Transatlantic social distanced cuddle coming your way
(((((((((((((((((Lighter )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on May 11, 2020, 09:18:40 AM
I notice how all of us respond to "specifics" based on our own frame of references and past experiences... and emotional predilections.

I tend to be as pro-active as Lighter, if not a little more. The way it works for me, is that I assume full responsibility for my own security around here. (Closest friends are 10 mins away; sheriff longer; and maybe one of my neighbors would respond or maybe they wouldn't.) My security extends an umbrella over every life at my farm. Down to shelter and food - number of servings available per person. I can't afford to ACT on compassion until that's secure and there is surplus. I can FEEL compassion - but it's foolish for me to act on compassion and possibly set my small group of people at risk by not maintaining their security first.

The location and amount of space around me, actually poses some problems in the way of security - but having the kids here is helpful because the Hut faces the only other access into the property (without rock climbing gear). It's true I seldom see other people here because of the location. When I DO see someone - I'm usually expecting them. Occasionally, there is someone who WASN'T invited or expected... who was out "exploring". And I need to take some more actions to prevent looky-loos and the stray realtor who might try to convince me to sell. (grrrrr) That means signage; a gated entrance; and notice of private property; no trespassing. For starters.

There are quite a few "moving pieces" in the puzzle of society right now. As above, so below. In my group - John is preparing to depart, his purpose in being here having been as fulfilled as its likely to be. So he'll be moving on to work with a group that responds to disasters and at the moment are running an auxiliary "meals on wheels" kind of effort for people who are extremely self-isolating. I will be getting my house emptied out again when Hol moves into the Hut, and Buck isn't bringing much except tools, necessities, his "just in case" inventory for weathering unexpected situations... and his skills and knowledge. I'm postponing the non-necessary projects until he's here to help design.

Hol and I disagree on this particular balance of security to compassion. She thinks a friend of friends of one her inner circle of friends can be trusted with our location and welcomed in without any restrictions. I say NO... because on the off chance that society's glue comes apart even more... one of the best security features we have in the location is that not even locals knew "this was here". True - I can find it on Google earth - but their marker is in the wrong location. LOLOLOL. And GPS is really spotty out here. Even when I've given specific directions to someone - they've had trouble finding it.  I like it that way. Not because I'm paranoid or afraid - but because it's an advantage; an extra edge that I don't have to worry about security on a regular basis.

That frees me up to do all this other stuff.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 11, 2020, 10:36:57 AM
Tupp and Hops:

I appreciate the care and concern you're expressing.  I'm trying to figure out a  sane way to navigate the world. 

I live a few minutes away from the posh neighborhood's walking trails where the naked, pooping, masturbating man was reported and the middle-aged, dog kicking woman screamed at the young mother and young children. 

That didn't happen at the downtown grocery store, which is located very near the bus station,  now that I think of it.   

I, like everyone else, want things to be OK.  I want my daughters to be OK, no matter what.  I agree.... avoiding bad situations is the highest form of self-preservation.   

I hope I strike the right balance with self-preservation skills and the girls. The goal is to empower them, help them feel less at the mercy of, and more secure in the world.   Not less. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on May 11, 2020, 11:31:55 AM
Well, Lighter, on balance in this situation--ONE naked pooper creeper and ONE woman losing it in public probably aren't a shocking level of civil decay. It just sounds so intense when you describe things at times, I may have misunderstood it as Defcon Three. Glad the girls are okay and of course you're doing a great job.

Amber, that's cool that even Google can't fully figure your location out. I've lived in several mountain areas and understand that sense of security. Despite scary stories on TV, I think it really is pretty rare for people to be attacked in their homes in mountain culture (barring domestic abuse, which is everywhere).

If the zombie apocalypse comes, I'll meet them at the door and hand out knives and forks. Actual confrontation with violence is just not on my menu. I feel lucky I've avoided it so far and accept my limits. I also try not to attract confrontation.

I hope all of us stay aware without feeding the fear furnace, keep what we do see around us in proportion, and focus on the positive connections that also keep us safe. Caring neighbors, decent local governments (or helping grow those) and a one-tribe attitude.

Very easy to write. Not as easy to fulfill, but I think it's where we have to go.

Hugs all,
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 11, 2020, 02:13:47 PM
Hops:

I'll be more precise about my vivid jottings.  I meant to be more careful.  I thought I was.  You aren't the only one who's confused, so it's me.   

In the same spirit you're posting to me, I will add a handful of salt and share my reactivity around the phrase......

"I try not to attract confrontation." 

I know you didn't mean it in a way that suggests trouble is asked for, or sought out, can always be avoided.  It pinged that way for me, even though I know you want to keep everyone safe and away from harm.  This is your spirit, Hops. 

I trained to feel safer in the world, and avoid conflict.  The way we carry ourselves is part of staying safe.  That was lesson number one. 
 
Lighter







 


 




Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on May 11, 2020, 03:41:33 PM
I hear you, ((((Lighter)))).
Thanks for your sensitive tuning.

I think I OVER-tune to language choices and rhythms sometimes.
It just all goes deep into that poetry place, which is almost beneath
my consciousness sometimes.

I do not ever think anybody (or anybody here!) intentionally attracts or stimulates violence.

I think I just lack the brain-part that is warrior-like. It's just...entirely absent.
Compare a bunny wabbit to a tiger and you'll get the idea.

I'm glad you shone a light into how interpretations, rightly or wrongly, can tilt how we see each other. And to ditch the royalty...how MY interpretations can do that.

Still pondering what the lesson is but I feel I've just been given a perceptive and sensitive observation that will teach me something I need to hear.

Thank you.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 13, 2020, 02:44:05 PM
Hops:

There's lessons for both of us, I'm sure. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 22, 2020, 02:43:54 PM
I haven't seen my Moss friend L in over a week.  Her BIL and SIL have been visiting and she's taking a  course she's overwhelmed with.  I really miss her, and I didn't realize that till just now. 

I have a social distancing BBQ tomorrow evening with a couple I really like.  He's the sweetest man you've ever talked to... think Mr. Rogers building Ukeleles, and she's a Pediatrician from the UK now heading up a major health care system.... not sure which one in our County, but will hear all about it tomorrow I'm sure.  They just got a BIG puppy, part herding shepherd and part Newfoundland so his paws are HUGE.  He's just adorable with his stubby little legs and chubby look. 

It will be interesting to SEE and hear how this Doc is navigating social interaction, come to think of it, as they're cooking for us.

A neighbor offered eggs on the Neighborhood message board.  About 100 people jumped on the offer... turns out there's not that many chickens.  I was third on the list and just got MINE!  So.  Happy.  I was the first person to ask to see the chickens, and she was delighted to share them.  Said she was disappointed no family with children had shown interest.

Honestly, she wasn't a good communicator.... we had no idea she wanted attention from the shy original post.  She's reaching out for contact.... I was so thrilled that was the case and posted exactly what the situation was so she'll be getting lots of offers for company, I'm sure.

The other happy news with the egg gal is....
she has like... 100 tomato plants in the ground!  What will she do with all those tomatoes.. do'ya think?  I suggested she sell them to her neighbors!  Honestly, I have my own plants... 5,  but would love to spend time in her huge garden, next to the chickens, picking sun-ripened tomatoes for customers she's selling them to. 

We're cleaning out problem areas in the house.  The absolute mess of wires and video games and controllers under the LR TV are all tidied, up, behind TVt of the way or in a cupboard, we cleaned out for that purpose.

I'd be in the yard, but it's raining again! 

I'm just so happy about the eggs and looking forward to visiting.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 22, 2020, 07:56:37 PM
I set a visit with moss friend L (MFL) in the morning.  I've really missed her and have been looking forward to discussing both our yards... collecting moss.... talking about her classes.... my stuff.

At first she invited me to a Sunday night BBQ with her neighbors and daughter.  I thought.... I'll be recovering from a Saturday night BBQ... I just don't want to do that, so I asked for what I wanted again, gave her an out and let it go. 

I'm happy I asked for what I want.  I'm happy she's recovered from her company and ready to visit again.  I'm happy I didn't say yes to that second BBQ, though I can if I want.

This is new for me.  To ask for exactly what I want and not get sidetracked by anything.. and there are so many things to get sidetracked by when you're used to caretaking other people and their feelings as default. 

Putting that down.... and gently observing it provides space to SEE it clearly, without emotion, and get on with taking care of myself as priority.  I'm astonished at the interior pressure I feel to please others.... without thinking about it.  I can avoid feeling overwhelmed.  I don't have to regret saying YES if I say NO to things I don't want to do.  Wow, I bet that looks crazy to people who always ask for what they want.

I also sent a text to MFL's neighbors, with the amazing moss yard.  I want to compare notes and see if they know what the yellow circles in my moss are.

The boy is back in the house. 

I was in the yard moving rocks and thinking about what I want to do next with Hosta.  It's still raining!  I saw a chipmunk and put a screen over the rain barrel where the squirrel drowned.  I'm amazed at how clear and clean the water is in barrels receiving no sunlight. 

The tomatoes all look OK after the rain.... even the two little ones I peeled off larger plants from the nursery.  That's 8 tomato plants, which seems like more than enough to me.  5 pepper plants, hot and sweet.  Something's coming up.... I think it's seedlings I planted.  Will have to see what it was... I think zucchini and lettuces.

We have Thai lettuce wraps and ham/black lentil soup in the fridge, so I don't have to fuss with cooking for a while.

Lighter






Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 22, 2020, 08:11:15 PM
The egg lady just texted thanks for the visit.  She'd been discouraged, bc a neighbor 80 on the list reported her for selling eggs.  I told her it wasn't personal. He was upset she didn't have enough eggs for everyone.... and he transferred some aggression her way.  It happens, even if it doesn't make sense.  She had such hurt feelings, and I know what that feels like.  A psychic slap when you feel you're doing something kind and it backfires. 

She's back in a happy mood.  I'm hoping we're buzzing about her veggies stand in the near future.  Everyone was so excited about the eggs!
Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on May 23, 2020, 02:25:59 PM
Nothing's quite as easy as canning tomato sauce, Lighter. Yeah, there's the boiling, skinning & pureeing stage which takes some time. I'll cook it down a little, with some onions & garlic - salt & pepper before filling jars and the water bath. With the minimal spicing in the jarred sauce - it can go a lot of different directions.

And it's soooo satisfying in January, to see all the pretty jars and taste summer in chili, marinara, whatever.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 23, 2020, 02:51:01 PM
I'm positive pretty jarred tomatoes, lined up on a shelf like soldiers, is more satisfying to use than bagged tomatoes taking up valued freezer space, but that's how I do it.  Blanch, peel, bag and freeze. 

It's impressive you actually cook them down a bit, with seasoning. 

I can't wait to hear about your garden and canning sessions.  I hope we all have luck growing things.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 24, 2020, 07:21:16 AM
The neighbor's BBQ was so nice... not a moment of regret or discomfort.  They're very genuine, kind, funny and make really good burgers, and brats.  I had a burger and a brat... baked beans, half a gf bun, beautiful greens and a slice of tomato.  THANK YOU.  So good.  We ate in front of an outdoor fireplace the husband built himself from the ruins of their burned down interior fireplace.  I guess they gutted the house in 2006.  They had a bunny who needed food.  The mom left something on the stove when she went to get bunny food and so the dad turned the stones around and used them to make the fireplace and a beautiful retaining wall.  So creative and competent.    Everyone chimed in.. two of their daughters were home from University, one with a bf in tow.  One dd, 6"1', btw... worked on making a fire of wet wood till she got the job done.  After dinner the kids did the dishes without being told.   They're bunny people!

The mom, who runs a 100-bed hospital about a half-hour away, seemed a bit frazzled.  She said they need to keep half the beds full of COVID patients to keep the system running and achieve herd immunity.  They take the temp of everyone who walks in the door, which is frustrating for her to pay an expensive nurse to do that.  Also, measuring everyone's oxygen levels is super frustrating bc it takes a while to get an accurate reading AND there's no reliable way to know if an asymptomatic person has the virus without testing.  There are still parts of State who don't have the ability to test the number of people who need testing, and demands are being made they do it anyway, which is crazy making.  We sat around and played with pulse oximeters while oldest dd explained why they work... she's a bio tech major.  Very interesting.  We were seeing which PO was most reliable.  The one from China did as a good a job as the others. They all seemed to be working fine and I borrowed one to test youngest dd, which I did when I got home.  I ordered one for us, and will return this one today.  I really like these guys.  Their new very large puppy jumped up, mostly on me, a bit.  I hate being perceived as the weakest link and tried to train him into better habits, but he was so fluffy and adorable.  I just couldn't be stern proactively. My first instinct was to adore him.     

They had gf cookies... very yummy.... and the oldest dd made lemon bars. The dad showed me his Ukelele building workshop... he also builds guitars and banjos.  They're beautiful.  Most have Kona wood faces.... mother of pearl inlay on some.  Just beautiful to look at. I wish my youngest had gone with me and played some.  She wasn't feeling it and I didn't mind the separation for a few hours.  We've had a lot of together time.  The other mom was struggling a bit with a new puppy and kids in the house after 4 years of having the house basically to her and her husband, but she remained nice and didn't complain... just mentioned the difference in their lives, along with the COVID situation.  It's a lot. 

She said her hospital began theoretical discussions about Covid when it seemed unreal, but this prepared them well ahead.  They always wear masks when they go out and don't understand people who won't wear them. 

Today they'll show me how they cut through the neighborhood on foot to get to my yard from theirs. 

I don't think I've ever been to a gathering that didn't suck the life out of me, at least a bit.  I'm sure part of it was not having to cook or clean or worry about people getting along.  I don't feel anything but energized and well fed.  This is new.   

Lighter



 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on May 24, 2020, 01:39:01 PM
Lighter you have been SO enjoying your neighbors, it sounds like you're really creating community for yourself. Bravo. And that party sounded like social heaven right now.

How did everyone manage social distancing? I've limited myself to one-on-one (occasionally the couple next door) visits in the yard eight feet apart, nobody handling anyone else's food/plate/glass. I set wine on a tray on a bench another six feet away and when s/he needs a refill I literally take their glass with a paper towel and pour them more. Same for ferrying their glass or snack plate into the dishwasher. May seem extreme but it makes everybody more relaxed.

Cases are mounting fairly quickly in our area. Fourteen new cases today when it was three just a few days ago. Total cases are 416; 20 have died. I'm not crazy about those odds so I'm not "opening up" even though public restrictions are easing some. I do know how healing it's been to have the weekly backyard visits though; it makes a huge difference.

Stay safe and stay happy!
hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 24, 2020, 05:34:11 PM
CB and Hops:

We had chairs spaced appropriately, in a circle, not 8 feet apart...maybe 6 feet....around a little table, in front of the fireplace.  That was the main group area.  Wine was poured into our glasses without being handled by the one doing the pouring.   

We served ourselves food, one at a time, using our clean utensils to get the burger or beans.   

We ate in our chairs, plates in our laps...  wine on the little table. 

The dad gave me a short tour of the house and workroom.... we weren't ever close to each other and it didn't feel weird.  It's starting to feel normal, I guess. 

I like to have an antibac wipe IN my hand as I navigate stores or social gatherings.  I wipe my hands, and things and handles and it's second nature now.  I squirt hand sanitizer into the wipe when it's too dry to use.  I found 4 small bottles of grapefruit hand sanitizer in my sock drawer and they smell divine.  Very happy with that.

Things felt very normal.  No one tried to hug or get close.   Everyone was pretty sober.  I think that makes a big difference.  The people who drink too much forget about social distancing, IME.  I had zero sense these folks would step in close or touch my glass.  I don't know why they assumed I'd keep my distance, but they seemed relaxed and I guess I didn't give them reason to feel tense.

I have no problem stopping people from hugging me now, btw.  A couple hugs got by in the beginning... it felt shocking to stop people at first, but I'm over that.  It's as much for their good as mine, so that's how I look at it.  it helps. 

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: CB123 on May 24, 2020, 07:47:51 PM
Grapefruit hand sanitizer!
Now on my wish list!

CB
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 24, 2020, 08:03:50 PM
I do like medicinal scents.... herbs and clean essential oils.... oranges, lemons and grapefruit.... peppermint.  I just discovered my charcoal salt scub in the outdoor shower with lavender and tea tree oil.  Amazing, standing there looking at the trees, feet on wet wood, breathing in that scent again.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on May 24, 2020, 08:46:24 PM
My list too! Grapefruit smells AMAAAAZING.

I'm glad you're doing it so well, Lighter.
I'm much more fixated about the precautions but I can appreciate
that you are doing it just right for your circle and your circumstances.

M and I are just joint avoidant about getting the darn thing.
We're both old (70 and 73), vulnerable and no longer believe in much
of anything but Dr. Fauci and his peers.

So glad you're finding this community feeling. That is huge.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 26, 2020, 12:07:47 AM
Oldest dd and I made appointments with the Blood Connection to give blood again this week. 

We're both B+ and I've been doing some reading up on it.  That blood type has proteins in it that makes coagulation more likely, which raises changes for heart problems.

MAYBE this is the reason some people get weird clotting and blood pooling with COVID?  Do you think?

It makes sense since some people have the clotting problem and some don't.
Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on May 26, 2020, 12:30:20 AM
I dunno! Haven't read anything about blood type and increased clotting danger with covid-19. Interesting idea, but I've kind of backed away from more info, as I was getting overwhelmed. The new complication for kids is pretty daunting on its own.

I have a friend with a serious clotting disorder and she's really concerned (her hubby doesn't do social distancing as he should and even brought a neighbor she didn't know anything about over repeatedly, which really upset her). I don't get it.

Aaaggggh, people.

Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on May 27, 2020, 05:03:36 AM
Aw Lighter, I'd have had that puppy on my lap and then put him in my bag to take home, there are no boundaries for me when it comes to pets!  Especially big puppies with huge paws that they need to grow into.  So cute.  It's nice that you've got social things going on around you.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on May 30, 2020, 10:43:08 AM
Since tweaking my back, I've been stacking up projects.  I have Hosta, Linton Roses, watermelon and squash seedlings to find planting spaces for.... and I don't KNOW where those spaces ARE SUPPOSED TO BE.  I NEEEEED to finalize a plan that works well... that doesn't need tweaking or changing... that suits my aging and abilities.  Need need need... no pressure.  Whew.

If I worry, I know I'll get it wrong or remain paralyzed.  I've been in my rabbit hole of research.  It's time to shift to resting my mind.  Time to allow space for my intuition to have space and voice. 

It's sunny today.  The ground is wet.  The yellow circles in my moss MIGHT be bear and possum and dog and wildlife pee, but I don't see ANY other traces of their visits.  I don't ever SEE them.  Wouldn't there be scat?  Somewhere?  I worry about my entire yard going yellow with something I can't see that's killing it dead for good.  The worry shuts down my ability to problem solve, so that's clearly not helping. 

So, I'm going out into the yard and resting my thoughts.  I won't let my neighbors take my attention and pull me into their projects.  Yesterday I was happy in the garden, problem solving and a neighbor came by with his dog, which shifted to his letting the pug off the porch, pulling me IN to his orbit, to his dog splashing in mud to asking to use my hose and for dog soap and his ending up in my outdoor shower giving his dog a bath needing a towel.

If you give a mouse a cookie.... that was a great children's book.  Enjoyed it very much.  But this neighbor.... and a couple others.... I have to calmly set boundaries with.  Even the Pug set a boundary.  She leapt off the porch, when freed, then quickly changed her mind and got back on the porch and looked viewed everyone thorugh the railing while I was putting moss back in place from those big puppy paws, then turning on hose water, then looking for dog shampoo, then solving the problem of caging the wild puppy while neighbor bathed him and I'm just not going to do that today or in the future if I'm not choosing it myself.  I don't want a big wet puppy running over my outdoor furniture and clean blankets and table.... I don't.  I feel sorry for my neighbor, who lost his calm amazing best friend dog, and his choice of puppies.... but I can't be a part of solving that for him.  I can give him help and support, as he helps and supports my journey, but there have to be limits. 

I get to set my limits, as he sets his. 

::sigh::.

Back to resting.  Will do some walking meditation today.... feet kissing the moist happy moss and earth.

Lighter



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on June 04, 2020, 10:11:24 PM
Well, it's official. 

I'm done thinking about the upcoming election.  I don't want to hear either right or left wing parties prattle on with their skewed opinionated versions of the news.  I've stopped watching them. 

Today youngest dd and I had to run by the school and decided to drive through downtown.  Lots of buildings were boarded up at street level.  Many artists have done very cool art on the boards. We saw the place where the police stabbed water bottles and destroyed medical supplies.

A police officers was on the phone, standing next to his stopped patrol car and a recycling bin he looked into.... put his entire torso in to take a look.

Later when we drove by again there was an umarked white car and what looked like 2 people in haszmat suits looking into the same bin.   Something's going on in that bin.

We have an 8pm to 6am curin few bc of the protests, there were protestors chanting and one dancing when we drove by.  We didn't feel unsafe. It was peaceful, as you'd imagine it would be where we are.   I don't understand why the police attacked medical supplies.  I'm still scratching my head over that one.

I'm unhappy with the ACAB slogan, which is spray-painted around here.   I don't agree all cops are bastards.  I feel very strongly laws should apply across the board, to everyone, including cops.  I have to say the chant and signs "I can't breathe" upset me..... made me cry.  That's powerful. That's truth.  I don't like ACAB.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on June 05, 2020, 09:55:52 AM
I read the chief's statement in Lighter's city and it was about police stabbing water bottles because they'd been used as projectiles. He also said they'd rather have confiscated than destroyed them, but couldn't. He also mentioned the aid stand was on private property without permission (nit-picky). He added that that night's protest went fine with no injuries.

I don't want to mistrust all police, we're not quite Chile yet. And I've read some powerful columns recently about the HOPE that is in what is happening. With videos, and an outraged populace protesting in greater numbers than during Viet Nam, this might possibly be a turning point for our culture. It'll still take a long time and include more horrors and mistakes, but I think our entire society except for jerks is sick of racism. MOST people have begun to understand it's destroying America way more than any handfuls of looters and criminals could.

Eugene Robinson gives me hope. (Washington Post.) So do others. Not Tom Cotton. And I'm thankful for what General Mattis wrote. There is hope going on too, not only trauma and misery.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on June 05, 2020, 11:08:55 AM
A dove with I think a hurt wing possibly (not sure) has been sitting on the edge of my patio birdbath for an hour. I walked past (socially distant) a couple times and it didn't budge, so I tried walking up to it and pouring fresh water in the bath. It didn't budge. Worrying about it but don't want to re-traumatized if it's hurt.

Maybe it's just lazy and has claimed it (doves are territorial) for now. It's relatively safe from cats on my patio and the hostas will give it ground cover, but if it's truly hurt I don't know how it'll eat.

Must google dove diet...

Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: CB123 on June 14, 2020, 08:13:56 PM
I just ran across this little snippet from the Makers Conference again. It keeps showing up and I keep enjoying the dickens out of it. It is SOOOOO about codependence and the dance that we do. And I find that I constantly need the reminder, so I am grateful that it keeps coming up.

I'm posting it because its also hilarious and I think y'all will enjoy it. I'm so sorry that it's facebook--I can't find it anywhere else. If you aren't on facebook, you might still be able to access it because it's facebook watch (kinda like youtube)

https://www.facebook.com/makerswomen/videos/2819263481515291/
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on June 15, 2020, 04:04:59 PM
I'll definitely look at that, CB. 

Right now I'm BACK dealing with airbnb support over a problem they SAID they solved 3 weeks ago, but DID NOT.

I feel time is stolen from me when these things happen. 

Having to spend hours dealing with something, then find they didn't do what they said they would, and it's like starting over..... just to get a person on line takes hours.

In the meantime, boundary work on codependence is ongoing. 

Thanks for providing the link!

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on June 20, 2020, 01:05:36 PM
Lately, I've been waking up with a very good mindset.  Very present.  Very aware of being present, and how easy it is to NOT be.

Pathways are building.  Things get easier.... even when I'm challenged.  I get back to center more quickly.  It's revelation to begin a day mindfully, sans effort.

THIS is what I've been missing.  THIS is what I've been working towards in so many ways, coming from so many directions. 

Feeling very much at home inside my own head.  Learning to notice anxiety or sadness and come back to myself.

Nice.

For anyone interested, my T said to practice thinking about a thought..... SEEING it for what it is..... and seeing what happens to it.  What, exactly, IS a thought we're having?

My experience isn't what most people experience, btw.

Lighter


 

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on June 20, 2020, 03:56:24 PM
HILARIOUS video, CB! I love that moment when you feel "Busted!" -- but with love.

Lighter, I truly believe that almost everybody thinks this:
Quote
My experience isn't what most people experience, btw.

I think it can be a tricky trap, sometimes.
Maybe it contributes to a sense of "specialness" that isn't based in your wonderful deserved and earned uniqueness, but in separation.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on June 21, 2020, 06:17:06 AM
Lately, I've been waking up with a very good mindset.  Very present.  Very aware of being present, and how easy it is to NOT be.

Pathways are building.  Things get easier.... even when I'm challenged.  I get back to center more quickly.  It's revelation to begin a day mindfully, sans effort.

THIS is what I've been missing.  THIS is what I've been working towards in so many ways, coming from so many directions. 

Feeling very much at home inside my own head.  Learning to notice anxiety or sadness and come back to myself.

Nice.

For anyone interested, my T said to practice thinking about a thought..... SEEING it for what it is..... and seeing what happens to it.  What, exactly, IS a thought we're having?

My experience isn't what most people experience, btw.

Lighter

That sounds like a nice headspace to be in, Lighter, I like the sound of that.

What does your T mean about thinking about a thought - does she mean seeing whether it's valid or not seeing it as a real thing or something?  Did she elaborate any further?  I'm intrigued!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on June 21, 2020, 08:25:41 PM
Hi, Tupp:

T said that most people experience their thoughts as
not being solid or real. They dissolve away when one focuses intensely on one thought. 

My experience is more of moving away from the thought, judgment or feelings of other people.  Moving back into my head and heart.  Turning away from.... turning back to myself.  There's joy and ease in this lately. 

Today I observed the deepening levels of healing and being present... like a door opening.

More an observation of leaving behind old limited thoughts.  Of having more spaciousness available to me. Of having unlimited ability to create and experience after years of feeling very limited and crushed into a small space with repeating thought patterns I wasn't aware of.

I'm hoping this passes and continues expanding into what comes next.

I've noticed my mind hasn't been able to rest for many years.... 15 years maybe. 

When I first began seeing this new T there was lots of amazing work done. I assumed that was the goal.... and it seemed like my goal at the time.  To FEEL better. 

Once I felt better, which I hope I wrote down, bc it's gone and I can't recall that particular shift..... once I felt better, once I could get myself out of a hole with breathing and everything I've been posting about..... I didn't understand what comes after.

Once the tension and weight of repetitive thoughts are relieved. 

Once there's room for other things.

Once the brain calms down, learns to calm down, begins laying down new pathways and strengthening them.

Once there's distance and rest, for a period of time, for the brain to make lasting change. 


It felt very mechanical, at first. It felt like... picking up a tool, that felt unwieldy, and ill fitted to the hand, and using it, despite the whonkiness. 

It feels more fluid and internal now.  It feels streamlined... like the gloppy parts and edges have been smoothed away.  More useful.  More comfortable, requiring less bandwidth on my part.   

Like rusty old wheels have been ground down and oiled.... able to move freely again.  I feel there's momentum, and I'm not attached to continued momentum.  I expect and will embrace forward, backward and sideways movement in this process.

I won't judge it.  I'll strive to embrace it and marvel at the process, knowing I'm moving toward more spaciousness, more ease, more joy.... even if it's not OK all the time.  It's OK.

REaaaaaallllLy trusting is different than trying to trust, of feeling I trust, IME.  Internalizing trust, that all will be well, is an unexpected shift I didn't see coming.

I wonder what's next. 

I look forward to experiencing it.

Lighter





Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on June 21, 2020, 11:48:58 PM
Quote
even if it's not OK all the time.  It's OK.

REaaaaaallllLy trusting is different than trying to trust, of feeling I trust, IME.  Internalizing trust, that all will be well....

This sounds wonderful, Lighter.
I'm glad for you. You're positively ZEN.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on June 22, 2020, 03:04:50 AM
Hi, Tupp:

T said that most people experience their thoughts as
not being solid or real. They dissolve away when one focuses intensely on one thought. 

My experience is more of moving away from the thought, judgment or feelings of other people.  Moving back into my head and heart.  Turning away from.... turning back to myself.  There's joy and ease in this lately. 

Today I observed the deepening levels of healing and being present... like a door opening.

More an observation of leaving behind old limited thoughts.  Of having more spaciousness available to me. Of having unlimited ability to create and experience after years of feeling very limited and crushed into a small space with repeating thought patterns I wasn't aware of.

I'm hoping this passes and continues expanding into what comes next.

I've noticed my mind hasn't been able to rest for many years.... 15 years maybe. 

When I first began seeing this new T there was lots of amazing work done. I assumed that was the goal.... and it seemed like my goal at the time.  To FEEL better. 

Once I felt better, which I hope I wrote down, bc it's gone and I can't recall that particular shift..... once I felt better, once I could get myself out of a hole with breathing and everything I've been posting about..... I didn't understand what comes after.

Once the tension and weight of repetitive thoughts are relieved. 

Once there's room for other things.

Once the brain calms down, learns to calm down, begins laying down new pathways and strengthening them.

Once there's distance and rest, for a period of time, for the brain to make lasting change. 


It felt very mechanical, at first. It felt like... picking up a tool, that felt unwieldy, and ill fitted to the hand, and using it, despite the whonkiness. 

It feels more fluid and internal now.  It feels streamlined... like the gloppy parts and edges have been smoothed away.  More useful.  More comfortable, requiring less bandwidth on my part.   

Like rusty old wheels have been ground down and oiled.... able to move freely again.  I feel there's momentum, and I'm not attached to continued momentum.  I expect and will embrace forward, backward and sideways movement in this process.

I won't judge it.  I'll strive to embrace it and marvel at the process, knowing I'm moving toward more spaciousness, more ease, more joy.... even if it's not OK all the time.  It's OK.

REaaaaaallllLy trusting is different than trying to trust, of feeling I trust, IME.  Internalizing trust, that all will be well, is an unexpected shift I didn't see coming.

I wonder what's next. 

I look forward to experiencing it.

Lighter

Gosh, Lighter, that all spoke very deeply to me, and makes sense on some level although I think it's more of an internal level than in my head, if that makes sense?  Does the making sense make sense?  Lol.

I am definitely going to try to focus on one thought.  I've noticed over the last few days that I find myself from time to time watching stuff on TV I don't particularly want to watch, and/or scrolling endlessly though 'stuff' on the internet.  Kind of doing stuff but not really being there - zoning out a bit.  Then I notice that I feel very tense and then I realise that my mind is racing and I think I've kind of zoned out a bit to get away from it, without realising it was happening.  So that notion of focusing on one thought is very interesting and I'm going to try really hard to do that today.  I keep finding I'm listening to music and I suddenly realise I can't hear it - my brain's gone somewhere else and I have to re-focus on the sound.  It's weird how our minds can go in so many different places and we don't even realise it.

Leaving behind old limited thoughts is definitely something I'm trying to focus on now.  I've noticed when I feel stressed or anxious (today, for example, I have a telephone appointment with son's doctor and any kind of public sector interaction makes me feel nervous) my pattern is to re-run all the times we've been treated badly and prepare my arguments for anything that might be thrown at me.  What I'm trying to do instead of that - and it's hard, it's like trying not to blink - is to focus on nice stuff I've done in my life - things that I enjoyed, things that I was good at, things that were an achievement of my choosing, not because I won a battle someone else set up.  So yes, leaving behind old limited thoughts is definitely where I want to be heading.  And this:

It felt very mechanical, at first. It felt like... picking up a tool, that felt unwieldy, and ill fitted to the hand, and using it, despite the whonkiness.

It feels more fluid and internal now.  It feels streamlined... like the gloppy parts and edges have been smoothed away.  More useful.  More comfortable, requiring less bandwidth on my part.   

Like rusty old wheels have been ground down and oiled.... able to move freely again.  I feel there's momentum, and I'm not attached to continued momentum.  I expect and will embrace forward, backward and sideways movement in this process.


Such a good description and I really got what you meant by that.  I'm so glad it's coming together for you and all feeling so much more natural.  Like you've got to the top of the mountain instead of just being able to see the top.  Wow xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on June 23, 2020, 11:41:00 AM
Tupp:

My feeling, about how things are going...
 is that I've pushed past limitations on my ability to rest. 

My brain feels like it's been in neutral for a good while, which is different than STARTING TO REST, then dealing with all the shoulds... the expectations for payouts IF I allow myself to rest, then I'll (insert amazing things I HAVE/SHOULD DO,bc I allowed myself to rest for a short time.) 

Lately, I've extended that rest... banished the voices..... removed expectations and judgements.... just released them... let them go without focusing on it.  That's hard to do IF you're NOT judging the judging, IME.  Ummm.....

::uncrossing eyes::.

Mindful focus on resting, feeling entitled to rest, dismissing voices and belief systems that challenge my ability to rest. RESTING IN AWARENESS. All the shoulds.... all the voices telling me I have things I SHOULD be doing.... are falling away without judgment. I know I repeated some things there, but it helps me internalize the lesson and so I'll be repeating a lot in this post.

I think I wouldn't be resting IF I was judging any part of it.  So many things to let go of.   Latching on to ONE thing derrails the entire process, IME.  You can do so many things rigth and still not move forward, which is part of the process, and shouldn't be judged.

I don't think I'd be resting IF I saw whatever I was doing as something negative.... like "zoning out" on the computer,  which I've limited to a few things that bring me joy, engage my mind and maybe that's part of feeling more creative.... of feeling into more possibility bc my mind is engaged with joy OR I've stopped labeling it as anything.  Not sure.  Just noticing I'm not judging myself or labeling what I'm doing.... I'm just open and exploring and noticing.

What's byproduct of resting in awareness?   

I can only say I've been focusing on rest... that definitely came first.  This typically leads to noticing how tight my stomach is.  I release that tension.   I go back to feeling good about resting. 

Waking up feeling good.... noticing turning toward myself and away from negative voices and belief patterns of not feeling entitled to rest, and all the I SHOULD BE DOING blah blah blah....  seems to be a byproduct of resting my brain and avoiding reactivity, IMO... yup. That came next.  Soon, if that lasts, I'll forget what that feels like...  how it felt to notice turning toward myself and away from the voices, bc maybe the voices quiet, and stop?

The brain experiencing less stress means I have access to logic and creativity... seeing possibility... feeling good enough.... feeling entitled to rest and joy and more, in general.  By.  Products.

My feeling is my T was either responding to my thoughts,  and being proactive with what she felt would come up for me..... the upcoming thoughts I interpret as setbacks or not moving forward, and wanted to help me anticipate them and deal with them.  Maybe?  I'll ask her.

Maybe the discussion around my ignoring the negative voices in my head made her think of thoughts as not being real...  I can't be sure. 

It's all connected.  It's all there, waiting to step into the spaciousness created with the tools I'm practicing. 

I just wanted you to know the starting place was focus on resting.  Extending it.  Feeling into it. Allowing it to inhabit my brain and body without pause or judgments, which is something I had to focus on, for sure.  Just letting it in, in dribs and drabs.... wasn't enough, and I didn't SEE that.  Couldn't get it, until I focused ON IT solely, as a mission.  Trying to DO everything, equally, meant there was a lot of crabbing sideways and backward, but that's still learning, and building pathways and relieving stress in the brain, isn't it?  Why, yes.  Yes it is: )

So....resting in awareness.  Resting.  Rest.  Resting my brain.  Staying out of my amygdala and limbic systems.... no fear.  No worry about the future or dwelling in the past.  And.... not living in my limbic system and amygdala isn't something I did.  It was byproduct of rest.... I'm pretty sure.  It was the wheels turning more easily... without so much muscle and will..... less rust, more ability. 

Being here, now, can lift us out of the spectrum of anxiety (at the top) and depression (at the bottom) and free us up for what's in front of us. IME. Above, and into a larger window of resilience.... we grow.  We gain.   We expand and build.


So.... rest.   

As priority. 

Huge self compassion.  Returning to those things if I stray.... without judgment.  Just curiosity, and THAT gets easier... starts to become the default, IME. 

I'm checking my stomach for tension today.... and I'm always pretty relaxed lately.
 I'm dealing with a sprained tooth, of all things and the ligament around this particular tooth actually siezes up when I look down, so I have to tilt my chin up,  and try to remember to keep it there OR I'm dealing with what feels like a foot cramp, but IN my head and jaw, ouch.  And THAT has my stomach tightening up, for sure.   

Most of all...... I've stopped feeling panic over NOT MAKING ENOUGH GAINS after resting a bit... resting some... resting until my SHOULDs kicked back in. I can't stress that enough... how I sabotaged myself, even while I was using tools I knew would help.... I limited myself.  Now I'm aware of that one little thing and so happy to have moved through a piece and put it in place.

I've pushed beyond that fear, and rolled my brain into rest's arms,  for the sake of resting, sans expectation of what I MUST or SHOULD do, bc I've rested a bit.  Again, I repeat, but it bears repeating, IME.

Resting more.... beyond feeling guilt for any rest I get..... and stopping myself.

Rest beyond stopping.... is..... what happened that I can put my finger on.

The other stuff happened, bc of that, IMO.

And when I'm challenged  by negative thoughts...  I'll focus on them and see what happens to them.... without judgment, but with curiosity.  Without expectation.  And maybe that's what the T was referring to.  Maybe she understood everything I just posted about, walked herself back to the place I'm at, on my path, and spoke directly TO what's going on for me, even as I'm having trouble connecting the dots, but HAVE the dots in focus, but can't see them all at once.

Nothing has to go any particular way for me now.  I don't have to get certain gains in exchange for being kind to myself, allowing myself to rest and feel worthy of it. That happened without my understanding or having that in focus.  Different things, I practice, come into focus and are useful in ways I didn't see coming or understand.... it feels amazing.   

I think this is new, and I believe I wasn't necessarily aware of I was pushing that deal.... making that deal with myself.  I don't think it was with myself, btw.  I think it was a deal I was making with the negative voices and belief systems of not being worthy in my own right to rest, care and compassion.

 Tupp.... do you think you have beliefs around not being worthy or of having to prove yourself?

Having to prove yourself worthy.

Having to give and give and give to be worthy of some small thing you wouldn't normally feel you deserve?

Being flawed.... having to hide the flaws.... protecting yourself from being identified as flawed and not good enough and targeted by the negative voices?

Targeted and attacked?

All my life I've been targeted..... with FOO members wondering about it, not doing the attacking, but noting it..... being curious about it out loud.  Wondering why someone is DOING something really awful... mean girls being mean, mostly, now that I think about it.  I've always been so confused and confounded by it.   Stunned, really.  And this was happening not so many years ago.... just blatant cruelty and abusive treatment at the Re Center, for goodness sake, bc I handed that woman...... the chance to be who I always am with people.  I just haven't internalized other people's motivations and habits bc I know my own, and mistakenly assume they're similar... will appreciate what I appreciate and step into it, when mostly.... the people who spot me for what I am HATE and resent and feel very destructive towards whatever it is they identify as NOT THEM.... as something maybe they lack or resent. 

Ummm... SOOOPHING, Lighter?  Stay out of other people's heads.  I don't have to figure that out,  just notice it,  and respond to it, rather than react.  Broken people are broken in their own ways.  I deal with my brokenness, and that's enough.  That woman is on her own path, where she's supposed to be.  When I see her there's no more reactivity around it.  For a while it felt like being hit with electricity when I saw her.  Not anymore, though I sometimes think about asking her about what happened, without judgment or expectation.  Maybe she'd feel better if she could talk about it.   Not mine to solve, though.

Moving on. 

How I see myself in the world.  How I feel obligated to fix and serve and fix and busy myself with being earnest. 

So very earnest.   Like radar... an electromagnetic field of earnest seeking... that program running in the background, THE default setting.  Lord.

And that's part of everything, for me.

That realization turned me around and faced me.  Unfortunately, with more shoulds.  Hmm.... something to notice, and not think about, I think.

::eyes threatening to cross again::

Rant coming on.....
this should have been a two-part post, I realize.   


I should have been more assertive.   I should have spoken up more.  I should
have insisted on being heard throughout my entire life.  Should have been more annoying, insistent, abrasive, pushy.

IF I'd... if I'd... if if if if if.......

I stopped doing that to myself, when I was resting, just for a bit, and I know I did, bc I've shifted out of resting and into SHOULDS again.  I recognize it's back, in this moment. 

A circling back.. hmmm.... backwards and sideways movement.... the T knows how this works.   She reminds me.  She sees it coming and shares lessons she knows will be specifically helpful, IME.  It's here and it's OK.  It's part of learning.  It's OK.

I'm smoothing off the remaining edges of it.  Getting to know it.  Understand it better, calm it, release it back into the..... nothing.  Let it be nothing, bc it was always nothing.   

I could have been all those things, pushy/abrasive/insistent/annoying as hell and people would have benefitted around me, sure. Dad wouldn't have had his debilitating surgery.  ASPDh likely wouldn't have felt so entitled to crush and destroy/harm ME..... IMO. 
IME.   

But I wasn't that person then, was I?  I was doing the best I could at the time.   Considering all my causes and conditions.... raised in a family with people who did step up, insist, raise their voices, or use language you couldn't ignore, etc, which I just wouldn't have done, but  I'm not that person any more. 

She's gone and I'm OK with that...  I'm interested in what I do next.  I'm not judging.  Just noticing, and it's NOT MY FAULT that other people made really catastrophic choices.  I didn't make those choices, they did.  My choices were always earnest, to work, to do other people's jobs.... carrying their due diligence for them, seeking compromise and the best possible choices and that was beyond my responsibility/ability... trying to save them... save us all... from their catastrophic choices and that FEEEEEEELS like I could have/should have saved them, saved us all, but that's not right.  It's not fair.  It's not OK to hold that belief any longer, bc I did everything in my power, and beyond to change the outcomes.  The catastrophes that followed were THEIR choices.... not mine to carry, though I've circled around feeling responsible over and over and over for so many years.  And I'm so very tired.  And this rest... this longer than normal period of resting FROM those beliefs is overdue.

THIS has not only haunted me, it's confused and confounded me.... circular.  There's regret and shame and despair attached to it.   None of that's helpful, except for the noticing without judgment.

And I see it very clearly now. 

How I bought into the negative voices, and maybe I'm the one making up some of the things they say.

How I bought in and believe them and it's time to understand them, learn the lessons they had to teach, then apply new strategies to get more of what I want and need. 

THIS is important.  THIS can't be skipped over and given a cursory lick and a promise, as they say in the South. 

Boundaries... the understanding and practice... is an important piece of this.  So many dots, some...  maybe most... in my peripheral or outside view entirely and that's OK. They're always there.

  Focus on ONE thing is OK and helpful and moving me down the path.  The path has more light, as I practice all these things as I can, with mindfulness.  The pieces move on their own, eventually, and come into play to do their part, IME.  THings ease.... things release, and EXPAND.  Yes, that's it.

Expansiveness begins, and then what?  I'm curious. 

If being heard is important to me.... I have to strategize and work towards being heard going forward. Regretting the past.  Feeling shame around prioritizing keeping the peace and not upsetting people around me....... that seems so....
::resisting the urge to say dumb::.

so....

so sad and childlike and....
sad. 

What was modeled for me wasn't MY STYLE, but it was there, in my toolbox, and that created stress , bc sometimes I availed myself, and that felt just awful.  Wasn't helpful, in the long run.

So many people would have benefitted if I'd been taught about healthy boundaries and entitlement TO them.   I would have benefitted most of all.  Well, maybe nothing would have changed.   Why am I judging that? 

::breathing deeply::.  It's OK.

And so this upcoming family reunion will give me a chance to practice and notice how it feels and what comes next. 

I'm looking forward to having more energy and joy and curiosity and not worryi8ng about everyone around me, as priority.  All that energy freed up.

The journey continues.

Very.

Cool.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on June 23, 2020, 11:57:38 AM
It sure is very cool, Lighter.
And inspiring to read. Thank you for sharing this.

Quote
I've pushed beyond that fear, and rolled my brain into rest's arms,  for the sake of resting, sans expectation of what I MUST or SHOULD do, bc I've rested a bit.  Again, I repeat, but it bears repeating, IME.
....
Rest beyond stopping.... is..... what happened

I loved the poetry of "rolled my brain into rest's arms." And the meaning, of realizing you're not resting just to get a spurt of fuel for the next SHOULD. It's going deeper, this rest.

I think this all hit me strongly today because I've slid back into mindless escapism which, in my case, can look on the surface like rest but is really just avoidance and numbing. The knee fracture (much better now) was a big slip backward.

I may be in a different part of the cycle (I have shoulds I've neglected beyond common sense), but I really like reading how aware you are, and how much respect you're giving your own thoughts and your own healing. That's powerful.

The thing that comes through most strongly is the determination to not poison yourself with criticism or self-loathing or something like that inner voice CB referred to that I understood instantly: "A constant murmur of disapproval."

I think when I don't confront that judgmental voice in my head that I grow exhausted, try to drown it out with avoidance behaviors, and eventually get so irritable that I don't feel I can be around people or start thinking critically of them, and sink into a murky fog.

Your clarity here helps me think about how all this is braided together.

Hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on June 23, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
I'm so glad you seemed to really understand what I was trying to get across, Hops. 

It seemed difficult to understand and explain, even to myself, bc it's new, and nuanced and more important than I ever could have guessed, bc I didn't know what I was going to do, or feel or how it would change me IF I somehow managed to figure it out.  It's not important what happens, only that I'm mindful and paying attention.  Noticing.  Unafraid bc I'm not judging or setting expectations of any kind.

Heck, maybe I have many more layers of rest to explore and drop into.  Surrender to.  Roll into: )  More than I can guess about or believe.  That would be OK.  Today.  There was a time that would have seemed unrelentingly overwhelming to me. 

I can just hear the negative voices in my head from days gone by...
MORE REST?  They want to know just where I believe more rest will lead.  It sounds a lot like coasting to them...
and the only way to coast
is downhill. 
That's what they would have said... are saying still, perhaps. 
And it's OK.
 I don't believe them anymore.... I'm just noticing them and....
Well.....
I guess there's something at the bottom of that hill that requires my attention.  I need to see it.  Understand it.  Make peace with it and internalize it...
 For my wellbeing. 

And the breathing, Hops.
I forget to DO that.
I forget I can do that. 
I forget all the time, even though I'm aware it helps so much. 
I'm sure I'd feel better if I remembered, and I will, at some point, remember all the time. 

::uncrossing eyes::

The journey continues: )

Lighter

 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on June 24, 2020, 04:59:55 PM
So, I talked to my T today and asked her about the "Lion's Gaze" practice of turning and looking at a thought... in our mind... while dropping the story around it, and just seeing what was there.

THIS TIME when I did it the thought telescoped away, got small and disappeared, for me.  Everything about that distressing thought.... vanished.  The emotions attached to it.  Everything. 

T said often times, for her, the thought just goes blank.... she sees a blank white space, like a screen.  If you're familiar with A Course In Miracles, they talk about the white screen of a movie theater showing your future and past.... you can see whatever you see, laugh, cry, but the screens are just blank, in reality, bc all that's real is the present moment.  There's no past and no future.  It's always right now.

The practice of turning to face an emotion or thought, while resting in awareness, shows us these things aren't things with shape, color, heft or size.  They're not really there. We don't have to do anything... just turn and face it.... and look. 

Anger, for instance,  has an energy lasting 90 seconds in the body...... and we did an exercise in conjuring and noticing anger... then turning to look at it.  It did dissipate and recede, for me.... I would have had to reconjure it and perhaps tell a story around it to bring it back INTO my body.   It was just gone, and every time this happens recently I feel tremendous relief. 

To KNOW I can manage my mind, make a friend of it, calm it down and depend on it for everything I need it to do for me.  I don't have to let it drag me around, triggered and reactive.  I don't have to allow it to go on and on with a story that's upsetting when I can put that story on the shelf. 

Understanding emotions, what they are, what I can do with them.... how I see and interpret them, or let them go.... helps me gain some vision of life lived with my whole brain engaged, resting in awareness.....
more creativity, logic, reason and problem solving skills
and not JUSt to escape suffering. 

At first everything was about experiencing less suffering.  When joy popped up, not often, but it did pop up, that was revelation.  I don't think I believed it, but it was real.  Being able to shift into complete awareness... presence... mindfulness is still revelation every time it happens.  Available to me, with me wondering why I don't select it more often.  Hmmm.

Again, doing this consistently feels like using a tool I'm not used to handling, and so I understand this will get easier and just snap in place... likely when I'm truly relaxed and at rest.  Not trying.   

Things have shifted, away from just feeling better.. not feeling bad. 

T said she recently took a workshop about anger really being about fear, and I'm going to do some work with that. 
Hint...

there's nothing there.

Anger is also about PROTECTION.  Some wounded part of us, perhaps, or child part, but about protection and it's useful and powerful, for protection, but not for seeing things clearly and as they truly are. 

I think. 

With acceptance. 


Then we talked about HATE.  She asked me to do some work.. conjuring HATE, then turning to look at it without doing anything.  Just looking at it to see what there is to see. 

Again...
hint....

there should be nothing there. 

Giving energy to thoughts and emotions vs doing nothing... vs being aware.... resting in awareness and looking at what's there, taking it apart, seeing what it's made of... what's behind it IS the mission today.  To make that a habit. 

Sobriety came up..... since I don't drink much, and not at all lately (anti drug), I interpreted it as a need to focus on how emotions cloud my perceptions and alter my ability to SEE what's real with clarity.  To notice and release those things so I can see more clearly, thus begins the work on HATE.

Work on ANGER.

Ask myself....
What do I need, right now, when I'm feeling upset.  What IS that thing I'm feeling and what's behind it.  Usually there's a younger self asking for something.

If anyone's interested T shared with me a link to a 21 day meditation..
Renew Yourself:
Body, Mind & Spirit

It's free and available right now in English or Spanish. 

I think this will get you to the link:
choprameditation.com

So....
the mission... right now....
to rest and turn and examine my thoughts. 

To rest and breathe and pay attention to what's going on in my body.

To drink my food for a week to calm this darned sprained tooth down.  I ate a salad today with avocado... just chomped it down, like normal to see what would happen and I about came out of my skin.... so upset was that ligament around my tooth, OMG.  It throbbed and screamed and I ran around with a bottle of 800 mg Motrin till it let up, which it did in a matter of minutes. 

Just any shifting and knocking about upsets that ligament and it tenses then seizes, like your foot or calf muscle when you're dehydrated... so very very painful and pulls other muscles into it also.   I have my answer as to what happens if I chew normally.  The info says it should last about a week.  There's zero discomfort in this moment, but just thinking about it makes it jump and throb a bit.  The anticipation I guess, tenses it up.


Lighter









 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on June 24, 2020, 06:16:34 PM
I talked to a neighbor about my sprained tooth, and he said he'd had a bruised tooth before.   His dentist gave him something to keep him from tapping that tooth into the lower tooth, until it calmed down,  so I'm going to ask my dentist what that might be.  I assume it's a little guard, though I can't think how it'd stay in place.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 25, 2020, 08:31:15 AM
Lighter, I've been on my own version of a work path through that space. I don't have any good words for it yet. But what I DO have that's different, is Hol -- who is where she is, on her own path. We can mirror things back to each other. And we do have those uncomfortable moments, bumping heads moments... or where one needs, some THING, and can't say... and the other can't read accurately, what the other one needs; so waits... for clarity.

Hol and I are more on the active side of Amazon Warriors. It's just part of our nature - but we're both excruciatingly conscientious about it. Between the two of us - it's remarkably easy to wound with a gesture or off-hand, flippant remark. My working theory about all that, is that each of us have that place where we need the unconditional love and protection and external soothing because of the intensity of what we feel. Sort of the same as an inconsistent attachment style. Much of what you wrote is very very familiar to me. I just don't have the right words to talk about it like you do. And we're both working it out differently... as you are. I do think that what works is slightly different for all of us.

What you said about anger... I was able to use to with Buck when he got very angry. Validating the feeling... comforting him... until it de-escalated a bit and his brain reengaged.  I had no fear of him... and he is an explosive sort of guy. I think that relaxed him, even more... and he appreciated what I was able to do in that moment. The almost silent sobs that followed, in him, were enough for me to know how long he has gone without that simple human kindness. I have 42 long years of practice with Hol.

----------
At this level, I think the work is less about correcting a problem and more about refining and mastering the techniques. So that a real change occurs through accepting the skill as one's new instinctive reflex. That mastery is internal and invisible to the outside world and other people... but it still uses up tons of energy. So extended periods of mental/emotional "rest" are absolutely required.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on June 25, 2020, 09:09:17 AM
Is Buck's anger PTSD-related?
Do you know what triggered it?

"An explosive kind of guy" is worrisome, Amber.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 25, 2020, 09:34:01 AM
It's OK Hops. Not PTSD-related; he is still cognizant of what he's doing. No worse than Hol - or me, after my long fuse is expended. But he's not been exposed to women who can deal with raw anger before; that's new for him. 'Fraid it's kinda my native language. But I HAVE been focused on expanding that vocabulary a LOT MORE.

ETA: He and I have talked about that, it was one of Hol's concerns for me. And he's explained that he NEVER has and NEVER will hit a woman. That's just how he was raised and it's ingrained. Most he will do is restrain. His bent is protecting women... and he was angry because he wasn't there to protect his D, from a life event that we all go through. Even though I keep working on him about how it's counter-productive for him to be so protective as she's headed out to college. She has to learn to stand up for herself.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on June 25, 2020, 01:19:37 PM
Gotcha.
I'm sorry he has those outbursts but glad this one wasn't aimed at you.
Glad you have the stomach for raw anger. I make tracks, but am a wabbit.

Maybe he has a codependence thing going on with D?

Anyway, long as you're okay.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: CB123 on June 25, 2020, 01:38:26 PM
Skep,
Restrain? That made my heart flip a bit.
I had a husband who restrained.

Hope I'm misreading that.

At any rate, I love hearing your stories, even if I dont comment much.

CB
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 25, 2020, 07:26:33 PM
I am more than OK, Hops. Both Hol & I are no strangers to our own anger. It wasn't directed at me at all. But it was all he was experiencing in the moment. Just like Hol, when she goes there. And the rare times I go off.

I understand where y'all are leaping to - and what's behind that. I survived that kind of thing in the past too. But it's the wrong meaning in this context. I would be the first of the bunch of us, to freak out if it was the other. And my radar for that kind of thing is NEVER wrong. Even in a crowd of strangers. Even if the dangerous person is a woman. And they DO exist.

But enough of this derailment! No worries.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on June 26, 2020, 01:49:57 AM
Darker emotions, they fascinate, we all have them right. We think maybe if we don't feed them they won't grow, if we ignore them or suppress them maybe they will go away, still they tell us something, it's just too bad they are so fear inducing and destructive. True feelings are destructive, isn't this weird, that so many relationships are topical and even careful and based on etiquette. Not that there is anything wrong with having manners, culture and expectations and people doing their part makes sense until it simply doesn't make sense for someone.

I've got no point. I just wanted to chime in somewhere even though I'm diving in like a sparrow to a random spot and then taking off again. This board is always in the back of my mind a little bit, then again at some point I think I got fed up and left for a while though I don't recall why.

I think I've always been threatened by men a bit regardless if they are angry but even more so if they are angry. On the other hand it's important for people to just be allowed to be angry right? As long as it's not the kind of anger that goes overboard. I guess it's all a matter of how it's directed and how it's worked out. Then again being angry is sort of an aggressive choice in how to deal with something, but is it a choice, doesn't it just live on it's own in it's emotional hinterland either outed or suppressed. 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 26, 2020, 08:02:45 AM
Ah... G. You do seem like one of my "little birds". I have goldfinches - saw a red one last week too; bluebirds - more correctly - indigo buntings. I enjoy them so much when they come to visit.

I guess in my way of thinking, all the emotions are like the suits & cards in a deck. They are ALL important and useful, at different times. And therefore, again to my way of thinking, there are no "bad" emotions. Expressing them in ways that are healthy is the key, I guess. I am the poster girl for NOT expressing my emotions. And I can vouch for how dysfunctional and unhealthy THAT is.

Might be worth exploring while we're still waiting out the virus... are the concepts & archetypes of the divine masculine and feminine. It's relevant to people's "inner worlds" more so than the expressions in the outer world, I think. We all have elements of both.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on June 27, 2020, 09:40:16 AM
Lighter, I've sat with your post for a few days as it was so layered and so much of it really resonated and struck a chord with me.  I'm often struck by how similar our paths and experiences are.

Do you think that inability to rest and be okay with resting comes from running away from trauma, of some kind?  Not being good enough or going through something painful?  Keep busy, keep proving you can do x, y and z, keep striving to be better and eventually you'll feel better?  Do you think that's where it stems from for you, or is it something else?  It's what kept coming up for me as I read and thought about what you'd written (I think you have written a self help book by now, by the way, you could print off a lot of your posts and bind them together and it would be a really good self help bible.  Lol).

It's a silly comparison to make, but I was watching Nigella on the TV (cookery lady, do you get her over there?).  And she often talks about cooking tips and recipes that were passed down from her mother, grandmother and aunts, and about her own memories of helping her mum cook.  It got me thinking about my mum, and that I can't remember her ever teaching or showing me anything, or explaining anything to me.  Never taking any sort of initiative or interest.  Only criticising.  The attention only came when I did it wrong.  And I think that's the nub of my not being able to rest.  It is tied up with self worth, you're very perceptive to pick up on that.  I don't want it to be and I try not to let it be that but anything less than absolutely perfect and beyond reproach is never good enough.  Which I know is silly; even when I did do things well she still found something to pick at.  And it's soooooo long ago now, but those nubs settle in so deeply.  So what you said about being able to rest and just being able to do it - not needing to justify it or make up for it later on.  That's a skill I want to try to cultivate.  I am resting physically but it's not happening in my mind yet.  But as you say you took the physical rest first and the mental rest followed.  So I will keep resting.  I've noticed how tired I've been since son had his college picnic.  I felt very stressed by having to get up there and it's interacting with people that I find stressful - what they might do and what they might say.  It was a hot day as well and I was conscious of having to just hang around for a couple of hours in all that heat.  Plus got chatted up by a man in his 70s and it bothered me - that need by some to put their own needs  first without any thought for the needs of the other person (I was sitting eating my sandwich - in no way giving off signals of any kind that I wanted a man to ask me if I was married or not and start talking about taking me out for a drink).  It bothers me that I give energy to dealing with that politely instead of just telling someone to f off.  I don't want to be hostile to people.  But sometimes I wonder if it's what you need to do.  I've gone off on a tangent now.  Lol, I just mention it because it was to do with feeling tired and needing to rest, I think xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on June 27, 2020, 01:52:36 PM
Lighter, I've sat with your post for a few days as it was so layered and so much of it really resonated and struck a chord with me.  I'm often struck by how similar our paths and experiences are.  Me too.  ::noticing the shame threatening::.  I know your childhood was harder than mine.  I think I always have some wave of shame wash over me when I see similarities in paths... as far as the legal go, then remember how different childhoods were.  A negative voice always rises up and tries to shame me, when really..... it's not helpful.

No one had a perfect childhood.  I can have my stuff, and it doesn't mean I'm comparing at all.  I never do.   But that voice.... I'm noticing it, and seeing what's underneath it.  What other people think, I guess.  My anger... my protectiveness rises up, too.  Like I COULD protect you, ever.  Silly.  I can't, but there's reactivity there..... bc you should have been protected, of course.  And this comes down to acceptance.... still struggling with that, and noticing it.   

T said to look for that... when things come up, feel wrong... to see if I'm fighting acceptance.  I DO, still.  I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it.  Internalize it.  Make friends with it.     


Do you think that inability to rest and be okay with resting comes from running away from trauma, of some kind?  Not being good enough or going through something painful?  Keep busy, keep proving you can do x, y and z, keep striving to be better and eventually you'll feel better?  Do you think that's where it stems from for you, or is it something else?  It's what kept coming up for me as I read and thought about what you'd written (I think you have written a self help book by now, by the way, you could print off a lot of your posts and bind them together and it would be a really good self help bible.  Lol).  I think there IS underneath all the seeking/avoiding... deep things we uncover and discover with patient awareness.  With ongoing curiosity.  With getting past what we do to avoid feeling and seeing.... very similar to crying like a small child... just letting it all goooo.  We take deep breaths, hold our breath, we resist and fight it without being aware.  The same with  going deep, underneath the stuff we can see now, to see what's underneath it.  And we all have stuff.  We all have to figure out how to use the new tools and apply them, over and over, till things get easier. 

What little child wants to KNOW their parents are bad parents,  much less toxic and dangerous?  That's something that's hidden away and locked up tight, so the child can survive.  It has to be unlocked, but the unlocking doesn't have to be difficult if we relax into it and give permission and parent ourselves through it, IME. 

For all those pieces to come together...
awareness,
 remembering the tools,
remembering the mission and breathing throughout the process,
creating space for something wer'e trusting in, but unable to anticipate, bc it's new....
continuing to create space, which means we silence the negative voices, and go back to resting, avoiding judgment... i t's like riding waves.... easier on the downside.  Harder on the upside,but it's the same wave, and maybe we create the hard and easy in our minds.   Maybe, once we have the tools in hand, and the space... it just works without effort. 

Maybe letting it happen, rather than doing it... is the secret.  Simpler than anything we've ever done,  but everything's been hard, or we interpret it as hard, bc...... running tapes in the background,  seeking and avoidance behaviors to keep from seeing the tapes. 


It's a silly comparison to make, but I was watching Nigella on the TV (cookery lady, do you get her over there?).  And she often talks about cooking tips and recipes that were passed down from her mother, grandmother and aunts, and about her own memories of helping her mum cook.  It got me thinking about my mum, and that I can't remember her ever teaching or showing me anything, or explaining anything to me.  Never taking any sort of initiative or interest.  Only criticising.  The attention only came when I did it wrong.  I don't find that silly in any way, Tupp.  It makes me very sad, and I want to hug young Tupp so badly.
 To SEE and experience that closeness, through Nigella's stories and shared experience... that makes so much sense to me.  Of course your experience is conjured when you listen and watch sometihng altogether opposite your own experience.  I think that's information you're ready to see and process.  I wonder how much of it is about final acceptance...  your mother was broken and flawed and doing her best, however wretched and toxic, her best based on the causes and conditions she was raised with. Whatever went wrong... it wasn't anything you could control.  You didn't create those conditions.  You suffered bc of them, and  nothing about it was rigth or good.  You were a beautiful, worthy infant who deserved a good enough mother you didn't receive.  Nothing can change that.  Accepting that.... is perhaps part of releasing the haunting, the avoidance the seeking behaviors behind it?  It's real and it's inside your bone and skin and brain..... and you deserve to finish it... make peace with it.... accept and file it in historic files.  Lord knows... what hope of doing that did you have during the last 15 years?  With her constant attacks, that were very real.  There's no swiping that under the rug, Tupp.  No healing in the midst of threat and battle, IME. 

I see the need for deep forgiveness, for us both, bc maybe we feel we SHOULD have overcome it... gotten past it....  healed through it, but honestly..... I don't think there's a soul on this earth, outside an experienced monk, who could have.  People say things.... they have SHOULDS and they don't understand how that's just complicating the process, IME. 

DOING more isn't the problem.   It's releiving the pressure that's built, so the brain can rest, and shift and process and finish everything held up by trauma, and stacked for future processing. THIS is the time for processing, and the creating this backlog will have to change for the process to continue.  This is tied to childhood, and not so easy to tease apart... so many things, on different levels, but SEEING that can't happen until we stop judging and shift reliably into observer mode... and continue resting... even when habit pulls us out of rest.... shift back, again and again and notice what comes up.  What stops us.  Why.  And continue.  It's trusting we'll be OK if we release all the habits that got us through, isn't it?  Our brain pathways don't want to change... they believe their keeping us alive...  there's resistance there as well. Another layer,  but it's interesting now.  Not threatening.  Not daunting. Just interesting to see what's there... what comes up.  WHere it takes us.  Trusting we can handle it now.... trust helps us stay out of our limbic systems.... brains integrated, and on line.... capable and ready to do the processing. 

    cultivate.  I am resting physically but it's not happening in my mind yet. There's all the judgment and guilt to notice and quiet down, IME.  The  bartering I used to do..... so unconscious... promising I'll do A and B and C IF I allow myself to rest for a while... not long.... and that's the thing.  Resting beyond anywhere we've ever gone before... takes focus.  And that can feel like work too.  Focus on rest.  On noticing what comes up, dealing with it and continuing.   

But as you say you took the physical rest first and the mental rest followed.  The mental focus on rest was like a merry go round.... resistance  kept coming up, and my permission to feel it, notice it and continue past it kept coming up, over and over. So I will keep resting.

 Rest and notice what comes up.  The voices.
 Judgements.  Bargains.  Then pat it on the head, let it know it's no longer necessary, you can rest safely now, and keep resting more deeply your mind, your guard, your expectations for what you must do.  Let all the shoulds go.... and stay curious... aware.

 I've noticed how tired I've been since son had his college picnic.  I felt very stressed by having to get up there and it's interacting with people that I find stressful - what they might do and what they might say.

I felt very much like that.  Then I just went to that bbq and enjoyed myself immensely.  Beyond my ability to comprehend,  in fact.  I dont' know it if was trusting or time having passed or what, but it got better.  Your situation included people you'[ve had conflict with, and things that perhaps could have upset your son.  Maybe you needed to be as protective as you felt, OR... maybe it's OK to trust and  shift into observer mode... get very curious and see what's really there.  Honestly, the guy interrupting your quiet lunch...  that's reason for protection and anxiety,  IME.   I used to be knocked sideways by it too... and I think there are types of people drawn to quiet people who aren't smiling and engaged in the world... which was always me in public.  I live in my head.  That attracts some people, and that's OK.  We can say.... I'd like to chat, but I'm having lunch now.   Have a nice day. Bye.  Can't we?  Without feeling responsible for the person's feelings?  Right?  I think we can, but we have to figure out WHY we feel responsible for others, when all.   we have to feel responsible for is OURSELVES.  Figuring out what's ours and what belongs to others, and internalizing it, is part of things getting easier, I'm sure.  It was a hot day as well and I was conscious of having to just hang around for a couple of hours in all that heat.  Plus got chatted up by a man in his 70s and it bothered me - that need by some to put their own needs  first without any thought for the needs of the other person (I was sitting eating my sandwich - in no way giving off signals of any kind that I wanted a man to ask me if I was married or not and start talking about taking me out for a drink).  It bothers me that I give energy to dealing with that politely instead of just telling someone to f off.  There's sometihng in between, Tupp. Firm assertion....  I know there is.    I don't want to be hostile to people.  But sometimes I wonder if it's what you need to do.  I've gone off on a tangent now.  Lol, I just mention it because it was to do with feeling tired and needing to rest, I think xx

I think rest is a really good place to notice what's going on, Tupp.  And... my tangents are waaaay longer than yours; )  Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 01, 2020, 02:58:52 AM
My tooth feels about normal.  No pain for 3 days.  What an odd experience.   One second you're sure you snapped a tooth off at the root, and the next you're googling tooth pain and reading about teeth having ligaments that get sprained and bruised... just very odd.

And painful.

And my lower molar, on the opposite side from the sprain, is a little sore now from chewing in a compromised position..... I automatically chew oddly, and compensate to keep sprained tooth from clacking the tooth below.  That never goes well, IME. Something's always thrown out of whack when compensation happens.

I'm ready to start chewing normally. 

Baby girl pug is limping intermittently... her right front paw/leg.... something was bugging her, then not, then bugging her, then not.  I suspect it COULD be her training us to give her almond butter on demand.   I can't be sure.  We drop her at the Vet in the morning, and hope she shows them what we're talking about, bc she wasn't limping when she went to bed and I didn't get any video, though I tried. I'm focused on giving oldest dd space to be the pug parent.  Not me.  I'm... just the Grandma.  Who made the vet appointment for the morning.  After threatening to "take my Karen business elsewhere" when the appointment maker said it would be days before they could see the pug, and I had a bit of a meltdown..... not HUGE, but manic and I justified it, in my mind, bc my first job was making appointments in a doctors office... for people.   We left problem visit appointments open daily for regular patients.  There should be time left in their schedule for problems like this, and I'm noticing I'm not upset..... I burned it all off earlier in the day.  And got my way.  There's only slight shame there.  The pug was limping badly when I made that call, btw.  She makes little kitten noises when she's in pain. You'd have made the call too... I think.  Just pitiful.  She's not limping now.  Maybe she'll be limping in the morning, but I HAVE to turn over the pug's care to dd.  It's an imperative.  Good for us both, and the Pug will get through it.

The first real rental of the Cottage happens on the 3rd.  I'm refusing to what if myself into anxiety over the things I can't control, but can see being a problem.  This couple is young and fit... like bull.   

I'm going to hope things go well, and KNOW the beach looks great... I hear the sand is back.  They can swim, so less chance of drowning if the turn the kayaks over.... I didn't get a chance to bring flotation devices.  They'll likely blow fuses in the kitchen, but they can figure that out..... if I can, they can.  At least I didn't lock the box in the basement where they can't reach it, which is what the last airbnb did to me, out of the country.   The second electric panel is outside, up high, where they'll need a ladder to reach it.  What could go wrong?  He owns his own car repair business.  He'll drag a chair out and overcome. 

What else?  Oh. We have travel coming up, a birthday for one of my daughters, I see a fancy tea party coming up, and the stone for my father's grave.... errrrr.... general area of his ashes.... arrived.  It looks good.  I had this irrational fear it would show up with misspelled words and the wrong dates.  It's fine. 

The cemetery people don't work past 3pm, but we can show up and request they deal with it... they need about a day in advance notice.  They also need 120.00 to place it, I assume there's cement involved so it doesn't sink into the earth or catch the mower blade.  I'll admit it here, bc I was worrying about it for a while, while my sibs AREN'T worrying.....
we buried Dad's ashes with my Grandparents.  Did I tell you guys that?  And we did it without asking the cemetery folks for permission.... and we chose the head of the grave, not the foot of the grave, which I don't understand.  The cemetery buries ashes as the foot of the grave, not sure why, bc it's counterintuitive TO ME.  Not right.  Honoring Dad's wishes seemed important at the time. 

So, I have choices. I can tell the cemetery on US, dig up the urn, and have them bury him proper, at the foot of the grave, for another 120.00.  I don't care about the money, it's more the telling on ourselves.... the sneaking was somewhat cathartic for about half the group.  One of my cousins brought a Hosta... I'm sure I told you guys. 

We could leave Dad where he is, hand the cemetery a box with some dirt and treasure map to the real urn and have the box buried instead of the ashes.  Com pli cated. 

  Hmmm.... maybe they'll plant the stone, even if they don't have ashes to bury?  I'll see.  It's odd to speak to people who sound like your long lost Grandparents, IME.  Like falling into a dream... feeling drowsy...  anything can happen.  Maybe the Grandparents will show up, and we'll have a picnic on the farm, under the big oak trees that let me know we arrived when i was a child. 

I look forward to being in that cemetery.  It's comforting.  My Grandparents lived in a little white house just at the edge of it, for years.  I enjoyed spending time with my Grandmother there... and my sister and cousins remember it fondly too. 

Again, I'm bringing Dad's little cowboy boots and fancy Western gun holster for a little graveside ceremony and lunch.  Think green and red and ivory and big flashy sparkly stones.  Very fancy. I plan to put vases of flowers in his boots.... white flowers, and something fitting into the holsters.  Not sure what yet. Maybe flatware in napkins.  My Grandpa was sort of a cowboy.... had quarter horses, and rode them in parades... Dad rode... had cowboy hats and cowboy clothes, as did the grandkids, us.  Little black and white cow spotted chaps, and matching hats... very cute.  Time on their farm was amazing for us. 

I was shocked when Dad said he wanted to be buried with his parents, particularly bc there wasn;t any room for him there. 

I want to honor the farm, and my Dad and Grandparents.   The horses.  The cows maybe.  The 50's era, Roy Rogers time it was.  The Grandparents were square dancers.  Yup yup yup.  I ended up putting a Roy Rogers quote on Dad's stone, btw.  It didn't seem right not to.  I would have quoted Audie Murphie, but all his quotes were too long. 

I must sleep now.

:: shutting computer with all it's decorating ideas for horseshoe cupcakes and cowboy boot flower vases:: 


There's a lot.

If we don't all end up in photos wearing cheap little cowboy hats, kerchiefs and creatively placed cowboy mustaches.... I'll be surprised.  Our very best family reunion was a pirate party.  Mustaches are amazingly fun props.  I highly recommend.  They make great goatees and eyebrows too.   

Did I mention we aren't traditional about funerals and memorial services?  Turns out... we aren't. At least my sister and I aren't.  I think my brother might have been.... maybe?  Not sure.  Going to sleep now.  Again.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on July 01, 2020, 06:22:58 AM
Aw, Lighter, I love the sound of a cowboy themed picnic with all the family there, past and present!  I think celebrations of life are so lovely.  I hate funerals, absolutely hate them, but I love wakes.  At the funeral you can only focus on what you lost.  It's around you, everywhere you look, every breath you take in.  But wakes - do you call them wakes there?  When you all get together after the service?  That's when everyone tells the funny stories and the 'do you remember' and all those old tales, often embellished and with any unpleasantness ironed out, but that's alright on the day.  I think it sounds lovely to be together at their grave side like that.

I've no advice about the ashes - personal to you, I think.  Here they will lay a stone without burying anything so maybe you don't need to do anything anyway.  But you will all figure it out between you.

Poor pug!  Intermittent problems are hard, they never seem to show what the problem is at the vet but hopefully the vet will be able to feel or see what's wrong even if it seems fine at the time.  Sometimes you do need to be assertive.  We always have emergency appointments put by here - everywhere does, as far as I know.  Maybe they were just having a bit of a bad day or had some bigger appointments scheduled in for more complex things.  But you've got in, that's that main thing, so hopefully they can help.

And your poor tooth!  Any idea how it got sprained?  I'd never heard of that either.  But glad it's getting better now.

And then going back to the post before that one :)  I think the shame needs to go, Lighter, and leave you quiet.  I remember reading about abuse and shame, something about how often we trivialise our own experiences - so and so had it worse, at least I had x, I didn't end up in hospital, etc, etc.  It's all trauma and we all have it.  No-one's is less or more, we each have our own experience to deal with.  I had my dad, albeit for a short time.  I got my freedom early on by leaving home at a relatively young age and I went to University and my goodness, what a ride that was.  There was lots of good stuff.  So yep, bye bye shame!  Lighter doesn't need you around :)

I think you're right about making peace with it.  My mum did what she could, and in some ways she was great - meals on the table, house was clean, we had clothes, we got presents on birthday and Christmas.  I knew kids that didn't get those things.  I think, essentially, she's controlled by an abusive man and she manages how that feels by (trying to) control her kids and the way people see her.  She relinquished control of her own life so she compensates by trying to micromanage other people's.  That's how I see it anyway.  She still causes my sister a lot of problems but my sister doesn't have to keep in contact with her, she can cut off like I did.  So I don't let my head go there about that situation.  It just makes me relieved I got out when I did.

And yes, firm assertion.  I think it's part of my anti-man head I've got on at the moment.  I've struggled to look back and think of a bloke who has done anything other than exactly what he likes.  I've got one or two examples in my mind but that's about all.  That's troubling me a lot and I don't know why.  But we're not going out anyway so I won't have to deal with it for a good long while.  Lol.

Thanks, Lighter.  I'm glad you've got the picnic organised and are able to let go of what happens at the beach house now. xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 01, 2020, 04:16:00 PM
Lots of processing today with T.

We worked on, guess what?

The brain surgery situation, and that lead to all the stuff underneath it and on top of it and it's a whole big deal we've scheduled to work on next we meet.

There was some EMDR.... which was really hard on my little phone, and this time she had be breath into every cell in my body.... with light.  More space than matter in our cells..... the lights getting brighter with each finger wave..... and that happened twice.  The pain, around my heart, went from 7 down to 3 down to zero, and we have a large session around it coming up soon. 

I like taking notes right after, so that's one good thing about meeting over the internet.  I had hoped we could meet in her garden,  or garden, but face to face.

Tupp... thanks for the info about planting a stone with nothing underneath.  I'm going with that as PLAN A.  Don't ask, don't gets, so I'll ask.  Seems simple now. 

Pug might have a neck problem, which can show up as problems with mobility in the front legs.  Pug had no symptoms AND her neck has so much chub on it,  Vet couldn't tell.  She, the Vet, said to go in when symptoms appeared again, so that was just before T session, but went anyway.  And.... no symptoms when we GOT OUT of the car, so, raced to make appt and will try again.

MAYBE the Pug was looking almond butter and got a car ride instead?  If so, the car ride, which she hates, should train her OUT of that behavior, IMO.  Hopefully.
'
About the tooth ligament... it's easy to google.  Look it up.  It'll be there, alright. I cut the rind off my ham now.  That's what I bit down on that torqued the tooth..... it wasn't good. 

Neighbor is coming by to show me chiropractic moves for Pug's neck, in case it's the neck.  His dog suffered with problems for years, so he told me what to buy to support joints and cartldg, etc.

 ::sigh::.

Very tired now.  This Pug pain has created some faintness and feelings of being unwell.  If she started screaming I'd have to put my head between my knees to keep going,  but I'd keep going. 

Lighter


Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on July 01, 2020, 05:23:47 PM
Lighter,
I really sympathize with your struggle over the right answer to burial options. I hope you happen onto something that feels right and sufficient to you.

I am not much help because I'm completely unhooked from ritual, symbolic or sentimental things about families. Makes sense, since I have none. But I think a long time ago I began to see biology as accidental, and endless involuntary biofamily obligation (under pressure to make it LOOK "right" or "good") as poison.

I know all that came from 10 years serving Nmom, and ruthless attack by SocioNbro, and current state (likely permanent) of estrangement with D.

Biofamily illusions and symbolism just blew up into a million tiny particles that I let go into the universe. It can handle them in case it matters; I have let them go. It healed something.

BUT. My Dad's the exception. His grave (mausoleum ashes spot) is 10 minutes away and I never, ever visit it (nor feel guilty about that). Nor Nmom's with him. Why? He's still here--in his old shirt I sometimes wear, in my prayer-chats with him now and then. My memory of his gentle soul. Those are all very present and to be honest, I just don't care what the future thinks of me and my duty. I haven't lost him. Even enjoy a few positive moments with Nmom in my head now and then...her librarian side, some early stuff.

When I'm gone, I'm gone. And I don't want anyone, ever, to feel they need to haul their aging or busy bones somewhere to "prove" (to whom? I'm FIIIIINE) that they loved me. If they did, they did. I'm confident I'll be remembered for a while by enough folks. Even if I weren't, my life had meaning anyway. I don't need anything public or permanent.

I did buy three spaces (plaques on a pretty brick wall, and the option to have ashes interred or sprinkled in the grassy center) at the church Memorial Garden. One was for my first hub, D's father (not his ashes, but the memorial plaque) -- we'd had a small memorial service there -- just D, me, her stepMom, and the minister. Another is for me. The third is for D should she ever wish to be there with both parents. (She probably won't but I wanted to leave that option for her.)

Actually took M by there the other day, he was curious. Showed him the names of old friends, plus first hub. He liked it. It's very simple but peaceful. Nice place to sit and think. He seemed attracted to the place. We couldn't get in to show him the sanctuary (shut for covid) but he enjoyed the visit.

Anyway, I am sad to think of how much anguish all that decision-making has cost you.

You don't deserve it. He is fine. You owe nobody anything about your grief. It belongs to you.

love
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 03, 2020, 01:56:05 PM
I have some closure on the burial/grave marker questions and final choices.

I'm struggling over the other stuff... my father's caretaker.... Dad's choices....  her choices.... my choices, and who was responsible for what.   

Caretaker returning from out of the Country today, so working with my T is truly timely.  I wish I'd done it sooner, but alas, this is how it was supposed to be. 

I've worked through an aspect of the puzzle regarding more modern, satellite issues...  but not the 20 year old stuff.

I don't know how to determine ownership of self-care and caring for others....
when it's overstepping, to do so.  And that's the thing.... NEEEDING someone else to be OK, to feel OK myself, is codependence.  But where it ties into my life, my hours, my relationships.....trying to save someone else can be tied into saving myself too,  IME.  In my opinion. 

I'm discerning the edges of that puzzle.   Maybe it will just process, and get filed where I don't need to access and figure it out. 

I'm curious how it resolves.  I'm sure it will be resolved.   

In the meantime, my Cousin's HS aged dd is seeking to extend a TRO against an ex bf who's been stalking her, assaulting her, threatening her.   DD is on the spectrum and can't discern the difference between an empty or deadly threat... shooting her in the head when he has access to many guns and ability to use them. 

I was reminded... no one can, honestly, tell the difference. There are indicators, but... we're pretty much on our own.  You don't know till something happens or doesn't happen, and the police are quick with the yellow tape, but profoundly helpless when it comes to being proactive in these matters, IME.  Being proactive, and pristine in reporting every failure to comply with Orders is mandatory, IME. 

This...
Wait till you're dead, then call us... pattern of dealing with threats.....
that's pretty much been my experience.  Not a good strategy, and it makes life really painful.  I can't imagine what my Cousin's dd is going through, but it looks and acts like PTSD, IME.

I read through her paperwork and saw the same mistakes I made, and all the things people DO when they're speaking from the limbic system.  It was interesting to SEE it with distance... nose off all my pebbles, and pull it apart, then put it back together in a coherent manner that "squares up" for the Court officers, who don't often read more than a couple sentences into any paragraph.  You have to talk about the big things, and bounce on, without getting sidetracked down rabbit holes that drag you IN.... so powerfully, IME.

Tailor the information according to your evidence, and your specific Judge's world view.  Have everything handy, even if you don';t think you'll need it in court, just in case the Judge turns out to care about that, and not what you thought he would. 

Just in case the opposing party says and does chaotic confusing things requiring your quick response, and having your hands on EVERYTHING, easily produced in a moment's time, is important.   When do PD people NOT say and do confusing things?  They always do, IME.

Not getting defensive is important. 

Not getting baited into reacting.... which is so so hard, IME..... and always always speaking about the abuser with compassion... compassion they lack for those they're harming.   Victims must cultivate compassion for their abusers, while the abusers dive happily into chaos manufacture, which creates confusion, which drags these things out.  That's the way it goes. 

As a mother, there's protective anger, and that has to be reeled in. 

There has to be a plan A,  B and C.  Rock solid understanding of what men punish women in the courtroom for... snarkiness = bitchiness.... and that doesn't often go unpunished, IME. 

One grooms themself to anticipate the usual courtroom crazy and counter it with compassion, and the understanding stupid people need to be educated in a courtroom...and it's the job of the victims to do that, without using ANY medical jargon, just the facts.  Zero expectation.  It's not something we're taught, in life, until we're learning under fire. 

Such a shame there's not more education around the justice system, and mental health in our schools.  Innocent until proven guilty isn't how things work.  They should explain that, and stop saying it.  The same with "In the best interest of the children."  The court doesn't really care, and I doin't think it has the ability to. They should just stop blathering on about it, stating it, up front, like it means anything.  It's a slap in the face, more than an aspiration, IME.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on July 03, 2020, 02:35:41 PM
BRAVO, Lighter, for these:

1)
Quote
trying to save someone else can be tied into saving myself too

2) I can imagine how triggering it is to know someone close, who's under threat. From male aggression/violence, or from the court system.

It saddens me, that you reverberate to that so powerfully. How could you not? But how many endless, varied, multi-layered triggers for this are possible in this world?

You deserve to find your way THROUGH (not past) #1. And then to discover inner peace or (or realistically, to just feel a lot less personally reactive and responsible for fixing) situations like #2 forever.

Peace, love, moss, friendship. THESE are what you deserve.

Your precious life energy. Your mind.

I hope and "hold aloft" that you will find the balance, experience your own energy as whole and simple. Clear.

I really believe that is exactly what you're on track to doing.

Kudos, you.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 03, 2020, 03:27:00 PM
Hops:

Thanks for that input AND I have a mind to finish processing some of this on Monday.... a very clear vision and plan.  I feel good about it.   

There as to be balance.   Yes.

Today I felt very whole and entitled to my voice, no faffing about,  or feeling I must hold back.  Instead speaking up, speaking truth while remaining very curious about the listener's response, which I immediately called them on, without judgment.  Just stating how it affected me, and I count too.... bc I'm talking about it and holding accountable the person I'm speaking to.

And it flooooowwwwed, Hops.  Just felt so right.  So different than I'd normally approach it... with dread of conflict, but when it happened,I didn't fold.  I pointed out the judgment and criticism, I felt were unwarranted, and explained WHY my priorities were what they were and excused him to have his.  It's all good, and we agreed we were done with that discussion, and moved on, with me holding my ground the entire way. 

It felt like we broke above some cloud cover, as two grown adults speaking to each other, instead of him, adult, to me... child. 

I felt heard, and if I wasn't...
pffft. It's OK.  I'm OK with simply speaking and not being hushed or cowed into silence.  That's so simple, and was so difficult to discern for so very long. 

What an amazing feeling!  I noticed it's presence earlier..... and the conversation cemented.  The more I do it, the more cement is poured: )
Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on July 03, 2020, 04:07:00 PM
Quote
It felt like we broke above some cloud cover, as two grown adults speaking to each other, instead of him, adult, to me... child.

Fantastic. Frame-worthy. Cushion-embroidery.

Wonderful!

Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on July 03, 2020, 04:48:53 PM
Quote
I don't know how to determine ownership of self-care and caring for others....
when it's overstepping, to do so.  And that's the thing.... NEEEDING someone else to be OK, to feel OK myself, is codependence. 

I've got a new practice; still a work in progress. I'll just ask if there's anything I might can do for someone. Within my ability, kind of thing. I will press a little, if I'm reading someone thinking they're not worthy of being cared for or too proud to accept help. Not a LOT, just to be sure.

Where I draw THAT line is the difference between caring for others and self-care. And that's always the point in the process I keep learning about.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 03, 2020, 06:29:58 PM
:: Pug head tilt::

I'm not sure I understood what you're saying as far as the framework I'm working within.  Particularly regarding FOO members' choices affecting my quality of life in profound ways I cannot escape, once that pooch is screwed.

I can easily say.... for example, Hops has asked for opinions, and mine has run it's course.  I will withdraw further opinions until I feel she's asking, and let it go at that.  No harm.  No foul.

 But when my father insists he pay a surgon to paralyze him, in a day, when he can go slowly down that lane or have surgery when it's lazer or nanobot surgery with out risk....
when Dad's unwilling to perform ANY PT, necessary with a human surgeon.... 
is that self care or..... codependence........ or..... both to do what I can to INFORM him of the truth he's so stubbornly hanging on to, like a little child?
Neither?  Something else? 

It FELT like I was the only adult in the room, and there was a bully fending me off my Father, who I really wanted to talk to.  More.  About the facts.

 It would have felt like leaving my infant father in the middle of the road, defenseless and certain to be flattened by a car if I did nothing. I felt the same exact thing when my dear B was struggling with a cancer dx, and a friend told me to run away.   Quick! GO NOW!  She knew the kind of fuck fuck it would turn into, considering his ex wife and nutsy dd.  Would I have done it differently?  Yup. Would I have left him in the middle of the road, alone?  Likely, not. 

That might be a sickness, on my part.  I'm willing to consider that... or a general weakness.... flaw... whatever THAT was.... I'll cop to it if necessary.  My youngest thinks I think too much.  Take too much responsibility for feeling responsible.  I should just chill, and know I'm making good choices.   Apparently she won't leave me in the middle of the road if I'm every struggling with childlike denial and magical thinking around huge medical decisions she can clearly SEE me floundering drunkenly with in the wrong direction towards traffic. 

And so, until Monday, caretaker sycophant just returned from out of the Country..... 
::sing song voice::

And I'm, all the sudden, no longer an adult in the room.
I am decidedly a child, reacting to SOMETHING else, much older, and I'm aware of it.  Will update once that's figured out. 

And remain curious until I have.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on July 03, 2020, 07:04:53 PM
Yes...I really do understand this intense desire to save people, especially those you love, Lighter. Cousins, neighbors, local businesses, contractors...anybody.

It reminds me of how I felt when Gennulman had yellow-tinged eyes and was clearly beginning to die, and his sister was convinced a few sessions with an "aura therapist" would turn the tide, and the congregation was confident their kind handyman with "a little problem" would soon right himself. I knew better, having watched Hub#1 die of liver failure, same disease. He was 6' 4" and a deadlifter and strong as an ox on the outside. Anyway, about Gennulman I was panicked and went on a tear to get them to wake up and LISTEN to me and HELP him with evidence-based treatment, mainly because I had a health background and my first hub was alcoholic, and I knew underneath G's rangy muscly strength was the start of serious organ damage, starting with his liver. I couldn't stand ... standing by.

Ultimately, by the time G's later rounds with his disease were ready to take him out, I was no longer fighting anything but my own refusal to accept that we each have our time, and that no matter how much someone loves us, we still have those core decisions to make about self-love. Or to not make.

It was poisoning and slowly drowning me to try to fix other people. Biofam or friend or lover or child.

Once I accepted that, and made peace with not being in charge of saving others from what might be coming...this pattern harmed me a lot less often. It's human to love and to fight for others. And sometimes (to me anyway, might not be the same for you), it's a suicide mission.

You are a mighty game fish, and to take the bait of every rescue scenario, to your own cost in deep agitation and worry....is not the long game. Survival isn't necessarily a cold or selfish choice. It can be tender and gentle, even while poor and sad may choices reign around you. It's something you can model as well as benefit from, when being a model is a source of strength.

I think you deserve a peaceful life. You deserve serenity.

Even rescue, its adrenalin, can become an almost-like-addiction thing. That's what my own experience taught me, anyway. Doesn't mean this is insightful for you, as you're your own unique warrior self, planted on two balanced feet.

hugs
Hops

And what you said about self care. My T and I worked on a simple assertion (old school!) for me: I am worthy of self-love. (Self-love was my substitute for self-care, which for no reason as all distracts me as a noun. Same diff, though.)
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on July 04, 2020, 06:37:37 AM
((((((((((((Lighter))))))))))))

For what it's worth (re codependence versus helping etc) - I had a very good therapist years ago who helped me with my codependence stuff.  She asked me in each situation to look at whether the person(s) could help themselves or if they were genuinely incapable and then to work through the process from there.  So as an example - a friend of mine at the time - who I can now see I was in a very toxic friendship with - was taking a lot of drugs, always dated men that beat her up and had just lost her second child (as in, they went to live elsewhere because she couldn't take care of them).  I had picked up the pieces over and over again, rushed to her house at 3 in the morning to rescue her, taken her and her kids in, taken the kids on days out, got her endless amounts of information about refugees and drug rehab and counseling for her and art therapy for the kids, spent hours on the phone trying to find people to help her and so on and so on.  My latest plan was to take out a loan to pay for her drug rehab while I looked after the children.  Just reading that back now I feel like I can't believe I was so engrossed in other people, but it was a habit set in childhood (take care of mum, look after mum, make sure she's happy, then you're a good girl, then you feel worthy) and I replicated it again and again.

I was explaining my latest plan to the therapist and that was when the word 'codependence' was mentioned.  And then she talked me through all the things I'd done for my friend and we went through whether she was capable of doing things for herself - could she go to a therapist, could she organise drug rehab, could she stop dating men that beat her up (or altogether, for that matter) and so on.  And the answer was yes, she could.  There might be psychological reasons that she doesn't but they won't go away by me doing it for her - they're the things a person has to tackle themselves in order to make the other stuff possible.  That's the bit someone else can't do for you.

It's probably not the best example but it's the one I always think back to because it was the first one I worked through with someone.  To this day, I still feel guilty about not rescuing her.  I still worry about what will happen to my mum when/if she's alone, infirm etc.  I've had to strongly resist the urge to rescue my sister if she does have cancer (my brain was going to her kids coming to live with me and all sorts).  I don't feel good when I resist my codependency - it still makes me feel uncomfortable and often feels wrong - but then I think it's like any other addiction.  You don't feel good when until you take or do the thing you're addicted to.  It has got easier and more immediate with me over the years - I don't automatically leap to help people now - but it's still something I have to work on.  And it doesn't feel great a lot of the time.  I guess I've just learnt to put up with it because I know it's better for me not to do it.

I don't know if that's helpful to you.  These days I tend to take a bit of time to think.  I can say, "Is there anything I can do to help?".  And if someone said, can you walk my dog, could you mop my floor, will you have the kids for the weekend, yep, I'll do that.  I offered to get some information together about complementary therapies for cancer patients when my friend was diagnosed a while ago and she said yes so I did that.  She's not done any of it, as far as I know, but I feel like I can leave that to her.  It's not my place to decide what she should or shouldn't do.  I offered to lend my sister the money for a private MRI so she can get it done quicker - I've got the money and if I didn't get it back it wouldn't be the end of the world so I was able to do that for her, although she said no to the offer anyway.  I think with adults, if you offer them some help or support - "would you like me to find out about that for you, would you like some more information on x, y and z, would you like me to organise a second opinion?" - that sort of thing, and they say no - then I think you have to respect that, however much you might not agree with their decision, however strongly you can see a better or an easier path.  You can let someone know you're still happy to do x, y or z if they change their mind.

I have had to distance myself from people who keep repeating or complaining about their experiences but won't do anything for themselves to change things - friends who endlessly complain about partners, people who talk about their negative experiences with the system but won't challenge it or do their own thing, people who complain about their health problems but won't take any action to try to improve their health (just through the obvious ways - losing weight, stopping smoking, that sort of thing).  I'm a doer - you're the same.  I think everyone on this forum is.  If we're not happy or life isn't good, we look at how to make it better.  But some people don't.  Some people are stayers - they sit with their misfortune or problem and it becomes their thing, you know?  They don't necessarily want to get rid of it, I think it becomes like a security blanket?  Safer to stick with that problem than work on it and open up a whole load of new ones.  And it seems crazy if you're a doer - why would you stay in a situation if there's a way to change it.  But we're all different.  It's taken me a lot of years to get my head around.

I don't know if all of that makes sense, or even if it's relevant.  My head is a bit foggy this morning, I might have got hold of the wrong end of all the sticks.  But you know that if you get to the end of that and you're thinking, "shush, Tupp" that I won't mind :)

I do agree with Hops that you deserve peace, serenity, calm, happiness.  Moss and hostas and nice meals with the girls.  Headspace to dump/burn/organise that paperwork.  Holidays to the beach house, so that you can enjoy all that hard work you've put in.  Barbeques and outdoor showers and dancing.  Everyone else has got their own life to live.

Do you know, I just remember as well, there was something that T said to me and I was trying to remember what it was and I couldn't the whole time I was typing and it just came to me now :)  She said that, every time I jumped in to fix someone else's problem, I was denying them the chance TO LEARN HOW TO FIX IT FOR THEMSELVES :)  I just put it in caps so I don't forget it again :)  Lol, but that was the thing, that was what helped me learn to step back and allow other people to learn how to do things themselves.  Doesn't mean you can't offer to help, or just email someone an article that might be useful or phone to check how they're doing.  But if they have the capacity to learn, then other people doing it for them stops them doing that.

Okay, end of typing now :)  Lots of love xx xx xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on July 05, 2020, 03:15:37 PM
Hmmmm. Reading your clarification I see how complex this question is. There is a lot going on in trying to get a satisfying answer, for you. I know my process and yours are totally different. But I'm listening...

and it might not be useful, but perhaps separating the thought processing from the emotional processing would simplify what you're working on? Or at least maybe putting things that are really bothering you into column A or B... would be enough to get started?

I know that there are places like this in my own grieving process, and to date, I couldn't exactly say I had any intentional process or system for getting through it. But it did kinda happen that way - starting with knowing exactly what I felt about things... and then thinking about them, without getting swept up in the feelings.

and HEY... maybe I still don't quite get what you're saying. It happens. Hugs anyway, it sounds uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 06, 2020, 12:23:32 AM
Tupp:

I think a good rule of thumb, for discerning helping vs enabling, is whether we're enabling someone to remain stuck, or helping them move through their problem. 

Life isn't always that simple, though, I realize. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on July 06, 2020, 02:39:31 AM
Quote
every time I jumped in to fix someone else's problem, I was denying them the chance TO LEARN HOW TO FIX IT FOR THEMSELVES

That's great, Tupp. Must've been a terrific T. I love this insight.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 06, 2020, 04:06:04 PM
Ok, just as there are layers to rest, there are layers to self-care. 

Unseen until they appear, when we're ready.

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 07, 2020, 05:39:13 PM
Well,  I wrote about my T session yesterday morning, then lost it.

Will write about it later. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 08, 2020, 01:25:57 PM
I'm noticing there are tadpoles, in my rain collection containers.  They're taking my attention.   I don't want them to die.  I've seen ONE treefrog, in 10 years in this State, and it was located on the bush NEXT to one of the rainbarrels.  I don't want them to cook, or get scooped up and poured onto plants.  It was green, and small and reminded me of the frog displays at nature centers.... so special.  It felt like I spotted a faery. 

Part of this is.....  frogs and toads and tadpoles remind me of a magical time in my childhood.  The other part is I don't like things to suffer...not the smallest of creatures.  Maybe mosquitos fat with my blood, but not often.

Any idea what I should do with these tadpoles, so they live?  I was thinking I'd strain them all out, put them into a container IN the shaded woods, with rocks and maybe a couple plants from the lake edge.. you know... in all my spare time.  I can't stand the idea of them cooking or dying in the water.... just can't.

I have a list of things I want to get done, and lots of outdoor stuff involved.  Very happy to see Moss friend tomorrow.  Maybe she can take the tadpoles to her lovely yard and hatch them out there. 

Lighter 

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: CB123 on July 08, 2020, 02:00:41 PM
Tadpoles bring back happy childhood memories to me as well, Lighter. What do they look like? The tiny little black ones, or the bulbous green/brown?

Do you have a natural body of water around?

CB
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on July 08, 2020, 02:28:31 PM
Do you have a small pond or stream nearby? That would be lovely for them, Lighter.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 08, 2020, 03:03:45 PM
Small black ones, not the big green-brown ones of my childhood, CB.

And yup, Amber... I have a body of water nearby.... a mile or so walk.  I can gather them up,  and take them to the....

little pond! 

If my last posts didn't make it, THAT makes no sense, but I tried to post about Monday's T session, and lost power.

::checking to see if my post dissapeared again::.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 08, 2020, 03:05:30 PM
Grrrrr.... second draft of post DID NOT GO THROUGH.

I must need to write it out a third time.

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 08, 2020, 05:58:25 PM
OK.... Monday AM T appt.
Spoke briefly about codependence and willingness to stand up and do the right thing.....  bc it's necessary and good and right to do so.

T said not mutually exclusive.  Both can be true.  I have the feeling I would have done the job, delivered the news and moved along gracefully HAD my father acknowledged me, at least pretended to hear me, and not assigned motives along the lines of heinous buggering,
on
my
part.
Also, I realize now, being run off by the maid.... hissed at, generally accused BY HER of having bad motives as well.... while BODY blocking me.... was upsetting in the extreme, partially bc of my upbringing by my father, and not bc she was overstepping, and BLOCKING me from getting important, vitally important, information into my father's very hard head.

I had to orient my vision, for EMDR, to a lamp and door frame,  just above T's fingers moving back and forth, and at eye level, which took some time and I got better at as we went along.

So, we started with a body scan and did some EMDR for what felt like pressure in my head.   It was a 3... got it down to zero.  Moved on.

Brought up the story, and went through it, in my head... sort of snapshots of incidents.... moving very briskly along. 

T was moving at an obviously quick pace.  I always spoke up, asked for more time, or indicated I was ready to move on if I was ready. No pressure to say the right thing or appear to be going faster than I could go. It felt very taxing to move my eyes that fast AND breathe mindfully. Adding the story meant my tongue was wagging back and forth a bit, inside my mouth, at certain points.  Stopping it took energy, so just wagged away when it happened. LOTS of focus and energy went into this.   

We moved through visualizing the story, which kept adding new incidents as we went along, then
went into the DIRECTOR'S CUT, which is how I would have liked for it to have gone. 

I could have chosen a super hero to save me, been a super hero and saved myself, appeared as my adult self and taken my younger self OUT of the family/scene and raised myself, but I chose to change my father's choices, and that wasn't right.  Had to do it again,but THIS time focusing on me, my feelings, how I experienced it and I added my father's exgf to the scene.

 He married her.

For that to be true, he would have lost his live in..... I won't go into remembering how Dad would have put it,but a woman who was from a 3rd world country doing his bidding, and working for almost free... pretty much covered it, IMO.  I think she received 400.00 a month.. which is what she asked for when she begged for the job, and received it. 

That said, Dad had the maid and the gf fighting over him, at a certain point.   Dad asked the maid for certain reassurances she would care for his aging parents IF that became necessary.  She said she would, and in that moment I believe he made his choice, and selected the maid.   

Ex gf was a nurse, and not one to be railroaded... a LEO...feisty and fun and always listened to me, made me feel heard and seen and never backed down from a fight with him.  That was a double edged sword,btw.  One of my traumatic memories was of my father peeking in gf's windows, listening to gf's and my conversation, then coming INTO her home, wrapping the phone cord around her throat while making it clear he disagreed with her story, then sending me on my way.... I drove away in shock, which is how I felt during some of the T session quite often.

So,  I was often neutral in my body, and T said it was pretty normal.  She asked my guardians, protecting younger Lighter from more pain, if they would allow the work.  I then asked, and received a quick YES response, so we continued.

We went into the story, then into the body, then back and forth till we got to the place where I pictured the real story, then how I would have changed it..... back and forth,  each picture seen BOTH ways, till  I got to the end. The end was always the surgery.

Then back into the body.... EMDR to get a zero. Sometimes I felt nausea... it was the most common somatic experience.  Once it was a pain, stabbing pain, around my heart.  The last one was the feeling of having someone tugging on my belly button from the inside... very sharp.

After finishing the story, and bringing all somatic feelings to a zero, we did a scan for reactivity around any of the memories..... everything was a zero TILL we got to the end. 

It's always been that one scene.... the maid sitting to my left, hissing at me... taking my focus OFF my father, telling me how angry I MADE my father,  while completely ignoring the information that could have been very useful, and body blocking me... just very upsetting.  There was still a charge to it, so we pulled it back up.  IT was a scene in black and white...

T had me pretend her fingers were an eraser and we went over it with EMDR.... erasing the top half... I didn't get to the bottom half, but T thought it was fine to move on to PAINT.

I chose the color green and we dove right in, painting out the remainder of the picture with thick green paint... it dried to a light green with very crackling.  Nice. 

Then we went right into WALLPAPERING over the green with a picture of my choosing. I could have selected Mother Theresa or the Pug.... I chose my tomato garden. Lovely.  Fragrant.  Then we moved right along to selecting items I wanted to leave behind... destroy.

I filled a shoebox with black and white photos... didn't seem like many.  I selected the method of destruction... dissolving in chemicals or water.... burying.... or burning... which most people choose.

I selected burning by bonfire both times I've done this.   THIS was the first time I built an Amazon bondire and performed the ritual with you guys, in AMazon warrior garb. I didn't have time to get fancy, but there was a lot of faux fur, buckles and fire burning everything down... chemically changing the photos to ashes.

We scattered them onto the tomato plants. It was nice.  Seemed right,  considering the recent thread on green burials.

Then it was time to move towards the bridge, which we'd all cross.  We emptied our pockets and bags of residual ashes, and walked across.  The first time I did this was with family members, and we took off our clothing at the bridge and put on white linen clothing.

I knew we were heading to a body of water..... and I'd be going INTO the water.... this time I was going to drink it.   What did I want the water to look like?  She wanted adjectives.....

Cool
Clean
Clear
Joyful
and it was surrounded by moist cool moss and water lilies, and topped with lily pads..... and it was small and round, but I pushed off the side and traveled above the water for a ways.... very fast. Trailing my fingertips.... then dove straight in.... deep.... drinking water.... I was SO thirsty. 

We chatted about the water... the life I wanted to be clean, cool, clear and joyful..... whether I believed we'd completed the process... was it permanent?  I put a number on it.  Same as the first time, it was 100%.  I believed, and what's more my intuition said it was complete. 

I wanted to go back to the pool, and spent time there after the session ended.  T said that pond would be another happy healing place for me.  I believe her.

::hitting send BEFORE this post goes away too::

Lighter





Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on July 09, 2020, 03:43:41 AM
I'm glad you managed to write it all down the third time, Lighter.  I'm sorry to say, but after reading that, I don't think your dad deserved your care and concern for him after assaulting his partner in front of you.  And then to make allegations about you after you try to help him?  He didn't deserve you caring about his wellbeing the way that you did.  Did you feel better after the session?  Do you feel like it's been resolved now? xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 09, 2020, 09:54:29 AM
Tupp:

Eh, I do feel it's resolved.

Two things can be true at the same time.  My sibs and I enjoyed amazing formative years.... Dad was a good caretaker.  We had wonderful grandparents, on a farm, with ponies and little black and white cow printed cowboy outfits, complete with chaps.  Cousins.  An orchard, fireflies, frogs in a watering can, garden, barn cats, a root cellar, popcorn and ginger ale on tv trays, homemade ice cream... the Wild Wild West,  The Mutual Of Omaha Wild Kingdom, Amish babysitters....  it was heaven, even if my parents were very young.  They had good support systems. 

Pond.

I've moved into gratitude for both my parents. 

When I think about them, the tough memories, the ones I've worked on, don't come up for me.  I can feel a little empty buzzing in my occipital lobe.. then... nothing.  Maybe a little pain in my temporal lobes.  I'll leave it alone and go about my day.

Youngest dd fabricated what she calls "clown headgear" with matching neck and wrist cuffs.  Think hand-painted renaissance headgear.... red and gold swirled cones with little ivory pleats at the bases and gold ribbons streaming out the tops with tiny strands of pearls.  The neck cuff is about 6 inches high... amazing!  Her birthday is tomorrow and we're still coming up with the perfect plan for her to wear one of her new Lolita fashion dresses... it's Japanese fashion, btw. 

I have tadpoles to move with moss friend L today. 

I'm very happy, ((Tupp.))

Lighter


Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on July 10, 2020, 06:23:45 AM
I'm glad you're happy, Lighter, and that the bad memories have receded.  And that you have good memories of childhood as well.  The clown costume sounds great; I hope DD has a lovely birthday :)  Is that what the party's for?  I know it's a little bit away yet but I wondered if it was a birthday party of just a getting together party?  I hope she really enjoys her day xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 10, 2020, 02:40:32 PM
DD decided she wants an intimate party... just her sister, and me, there.  Today she is 18!

We went to a fancy grocery store, where dd chose a fancy cake, and many fancy ivory and gold candles... so pretty!

I think this will be more of a photo op for her.  DD hasn't really been chipper and outgoing since COVID. 

I think she's getting what she wants though.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on July 11, 2020, 03:06:47 AM
Aw, LIghter, Happy, Happy Birthday to DD!  Give her a big birthday hug from us.  Intimate parties are the best, especially when there's fancy cake!  Have a really lovely time.  Gosh your girls are so grown up now.  Is 18 a really big celebration there or is that more 21st?  We kind of do both here, and then it's the decade milestones after that.  Have a really lovely day xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 11, 2020, 12:40:24 PM
Yes, Tupp.  18th BD is official adult BD.  Of course, she can't officially drink, though she can serve in the armed forces or become a sex worker, which honestly.... would warrant a drink, IMO. 

Not that she's entertaining the sex worker career.  She has considered the armed forces, however.

Her photos from last night are amazing....  really came out carny circus from the 1920s.... maybe.  So cool. 

I'll respond to your other posts... I don't have enough time to do them justice right now.  The Pug awaits her outdoor shower with Grandma!

And it is gloooooooorrrrriouse today.   Just windy and mild and breezy and I can't get he smile off my face!  SO HAPPY to be busy... enjoying everything I do.  No worries, and normally I'd be all uptight about kitchens and bathrooms being pristine.

::blowing raspberry::

All will be well, and my mind is nowhere close to worrying about housework...  I have lots packed to go... enjoying that a lot.

I went to Hopey this morning, for more fresh mozzarella to pair with OHIO tomatoes, warm off the vine, and they told me I couldn't get in yet... only the elderly and pregnant women.  I was about to beg for my order to be handed to me when they guy said... "Sorry, just 55 and older"  hee.

I pranced on in, happy to be right on time, and mistaken for younger... I think the fact I park so far away, to older people and women with children can take the closer spots, he assumed I was younger.  Also.... lots of dancing in the car going on.

Only 5 cheese balls left... so I got them, then found a few GF items. 

I have to tell you... rest is more important... deep sleep.... than getting the house perfect.  It's like a shift happened while I was sleeping.... my brain just clicked into another gear....
slower, happier, less OCD gear. 

I also think the Island Guests not contacting me for an entire day helped.

::twirling back to the job at hand...looking for pug::

Lighter



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on July 20, 2020, 04:15:38 AM
I'm glad everything is looking so good, Lighter, and that DD enjoyed her birthday.  Yes, consent ages are odd here as well - you can join the Army at 16 but you can't get a tattoo or buy yourself a pint?  I suppose where they've made different laws at different times society's been different.  They could probably do with reviewing a lot of stuff (although they probably all have more important things to worry about just now :) ).  Did Pug enjoy her shower? xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 21, 2020, 10:37:38 AM
Tupp:

Pug doesn't enjoy shower or bath time.  She endures them; )
Time to have her shaved.  She almost had a heat stroke on the forest trails the other day.

We wet her down and carried her, bc she collapsed.  So scary.  All better now.  She needs her summer shave.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 26, 2020, 12:06:45 PM
These have been busy, delightful days.

Yesterday my niece's bf and I went for a nature walk....or.... more correctly.... a moss, stone, salamander and frog collection walk with 2 sleds, and numerous buckets and smaller containers.   

It's a good thing my sis and I put a heavy rope on one of the sleds, bc it needed it yesterday when we realized we had one super heavy sled and one moderately heavy after all the dirt was drenched with a downpour.  I couldn't really pull either very far on my own and we were on the bottom of a pretty steep incline.   

I've been at the bottom of that incline many times, btw.  I KNOW better than to overload any vessel I'm pulling or carrying, but when the rain started..... and the creek rose, we got all happy with it.   We collected beautiful moss, WET moss, and stones... he liked the orange ones, I like the white ones.  SO many stones.  He caught a tiny frog, a brown salamander and a bright orange salamander.  SO EXCITING, like little children, playing in the rain together and that lead to us tying the sleds together with him pulling like a horse, and me pulling the nose of the first sled up and our hearts were pumping, heavy breathing, pulling, resting, pulling resting till we were back home. 

The boy dropped the sleds and immediately tended to the wildlife, which is what he does on the island.  Drops the luggage, strips down to his swim shorts and runs into the water, no matter the wind or temperature, and comes back out with lobsters and fish to eat.  He also catches little fish and shrimps to keep in a veggie drawer from the fridge.  A true nature child. 

He's been fishing at the little lake, and up to his hips in mud trying to reach a sandbar at the little lake where he let most of the tadpoles go.  He wants to catch one of the 3 foot carp usually traveling in 2s and 3s.  Very exciting.  I think we'll go fishing today. 

If I don't have unmittigated poison ivy on my forearms, I'll be very surprised.

So, the back porch has 3 large glass containers filled with toads, millipedes, salamanders and tadpoles..... decorative lights, candles and vases filled with flowering branches and fern leaves backlight the tadpole tank.  There's a big fan keeping the mosquitos down.  Everything's green and happy from the rain.

I'm happy too.

Lighter









Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on July 26, 2020, 01:08:51 PM
Wow, Lighter, that sounds idyllic!  Will be so nice to sit out and look at how pretty everything looks.  Great way to keep busy during the day as well, so active and so much fun!  I'm so glad you're having such a good time xx xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 28, 2020, 01:51:53 PM
Thanks, Tupp.

The last time I spoke with T she said "secure attachment" .... almost under her breathe.

  Like THAT's what we've been slogging towards this entire time.
And that made sense to me.  Forming a secure attachment with myself.... MY adult self.... my Mommy self, as a valuable resource.

My mother was very young when she had me.  The age of the mother, at the time of her first child, is the primary indicator for how well the children will do..... I'm paraphrasing here, but mom was 19... right out of highschool.  The only one in her friend group to make it OUT before getting pregnant.  Just very young. 

I feel as though the T COULD have explained all this up front, but it wouldn't have helped and might have slowed things down even.  I feel as though she set a course, for a place I couldn't really comprehend in the headspace I was in.  I feel like she took me up dell and down dell to get there.... showing me many different aspects of the same thing to drive home  lessons in different ways... adding to understanding and depth of internalization.   Beefing up important aspects of healing and driving home lessons, over and over again, which I appreciate and find helpful. 

There were many AHA! moments where she took me round to the back side of something I'd seen before.... and recognized them without them pointing it out.  Allowing me to pick up, examine and drop or keep things in my own time.  No rush.  Only acceptance and fellowship... always overtly kind and understanding.... willing to take me around the other path when I stiffened up, which happened less and less as we went on.

And I do find most Ts, in my experience, get impatient or have expectations of their own.... they get in the way.  Shut down communication, it's about them OR they're just overwhelmed and look to feel helpless.... I've seen 3 cry and that was the case with the Nurse Practitioner who tried Therapeutic Yoga with me.... then referred me to current T, who wasn't frightened or overwhelmed or in upset in any way.... just calmly went about resolving issues... never ever ever did anything outside that..... consistent.... competent... super informed.

I do feel all her skills pressed in and made the difference, for me, bc I am a fighter.  Justice, the idea of justice, MY idea of justice has never been a gray area, in any way.... she had to teach me to SEE it, and accept all the injustice and make peace with it so I could see the rest of the lessons, which wasn't easy.

The joy attached to being fully present is less like a light switch now. It's not mysterious.  The  toughest part isn't doubting or trying to believe.  The toughest part is remaining very kind with myself, and going back to being present after my thoughts have danced off into past/future, which happens
all
the
time.

And that's OK. 

Yesterday I spent the day attempting to SEE the world through the eyes of a child.  I did very well with it, then noticed when I didn't. 

I'm going to a new creek today, with niece's bf, and that's my goal.  TO BE A CHILD with his child, and he's absolutely immersed in being present...in nature....in finding joy exactly where he is. It's one of the things that brings so much joy right now. 

Yesterday he caught a crawfish and let the toads and millipedes go.  He wants 2 more crawfish, and that's the mission today.  I think his orange salamander got away....it was very active.  Maybe it scaled the glass walls.  I feel good about it if it did.  The snails were out in a matter of minutes, lol.


I have some amazing tadpole pictures to share: )

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 29, 2020, 01:01:21 PM
Yesterday the boy and I went into the forest looking for better creek action.

We failed, then collected beautiful flowers during our walk back in a thunderstorm.

As lightening crashed and banged around us, as we dropped off the flowers and phones at the house, we decided to go to the best creek, which was running so high and fast it would have dragged us away if we stepped in too deep. 

We found a baby box turtle and the storm ended on our way home.

We went back to the creek at midnight.  The shape of the creek, water flow and tons of rocks had all been moved and changed... repositioned.  Amazing.

The boy found many baby salamanders, and 3 more crawfish... very feisty things.  Territorial too, I think.

Today we release everything but the tadpoles.  I still have people adopting them, which is very cool. 

If I can figure out how to shrink photo files I'll post some pics.  They're kind of astonishing.  I'm not sure what's going on with their mouths.  They look drawn on with a black fine tip marker. 

I'm posting this here, bc I was very frightened by the lightening and ground shaking BOOMS of thunder.  It was right on top of us.  At a point I breathed into it and decided...... I have life insurance.... I've lived a good life... my kids are grown.  I'm going to be present NOW and not worry about the storm.  There was so much joy, from that point on.  I leaned into the feelong of rain on my skin, the colors and shapes aroud me..... it was exciting.  At the end of the storm a big cold wind took some of the fun away, but it was all new experiences..... I've never focused like that before. Had so much choice, or understood I had choice in that way.

I have questions for my T today.  How lives change when choice like this becomes default.  I look forward to what comes next. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on July 29, 2020, 01:52:56 PM
That sounds wonderful, Lighter.
Exhilarating, empowering and yet, oddly peaceful too.

Good for you.
I'm hoisting an air-toast to much more internal freedom AND PEACE to come!

(It was such a good idea not to fight the storm, but just feel it. Bravo. And still, I know you'll avoid being caught in lightning risk TOO often....)

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on July 30, 2020, 03:33:38 AM
That storm sounds like a brilliant analogy for life, Lighter, and one that we can't access when we're still dealing with all the 'stuff'.  I've got x, y and z in place.  I can do no more than that.  Let's just enjoy this.  Yes.  Amazing that you've come so far along this journey now that you can choose whether or not to be scared.  You've got that much control over your own responses now.  Wow.  Did you imagine you could get to that point?  I know over the many years I've been working on myself I've often wondered if I can reach a true state of 'I'm just doing my thing now' and genuinely not be thinking about other things.  What an inspirational story from you.  And it sounds like a lot of fun as well!  I love storms but I do remember being out in one once with my son and a thunder clap going off directly above us and dear Lord, my heart nearly stopped.  It's just so loud.  Mother Nature showing she's a bad ass :)

I really resonated with what you wrote about forming a secure attachment with yourself.  Makes so much sense and is something that can cause problems if we don't manage it in our earlier years, I think.  I've often felt that I'm acting at being a grown up, rather than actually being one.  I think the secure attachment is a part of being a grown up.

T's crying.  How do you feel about that?  I've had many over the years who've cried in front of me and said they feel tearful and/or emotional about what I said and to be honest, I don't like it.   I get that's it's probably about showing you that it's okay to feel emotions and respond to them but I kind of like them to be strong and stoical.  I think it pings too much on my "I must look after you" buttons and I feel like I have to watch what I say so they don't get upset.  Does it bother you if they do it?

And seeing the world through the eyes of a child.  I've found that so much with my boy; giving him the sort of childhood my mum didn't give me - the playing and making mud pies, long walks in the woods gathering acorns and leaves, reading stories, dressing up, finger painting, all that stuff.  It was like it healed up the little girl in me who longed to do that.  My dad did that stuff with me, I was lucky in that respect.  It really helps all of us to have that happy childhood, I think, even if it's in adult life that it occurs.  Really lovely reading your posts.  I think this T is a very good fit for you.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on July 30, 2020, 07:22:07 AM
Another Tupp amazingism:

Quote
It really helps all of us to have that happy childhood, I think, even if it's in adult life that it occurs.

Thank you, Tupp. I needed to hear this.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: cats paw on July 31, 2020, 10:25:44 AM
Lighter,

  I can't believe so much time has gone by, and your DD is eighteen!  So much has changed from years back.

  You wrote "...accept the injustice and make peace with it, so I could see the rest of the lessons,".  The Serenity Prayer came to my mind after continuing
to ponder that part of what you wrote.

  I hope Pug is still doing well after that scare.
 
cp
 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 31, 2020, 09:55:23 PM
The Pug is losing weight... and had a very productive appointment with the chiropractor.

I expected more problems,  but chiro said there's no big problems.  One rear knee, not the one she injured as a little pup and limps on, is looser than the other one.  Neither has anything wrong with it. BUT her hips are tight. 

Her neck is tight as well, and he showed me how to decompress.... pulling... lengthening..... not squeezing neck.  I've done it daily.  I think it should be done several times a day, but her mommy... my 19yo dd, hasn't really picked up that ball yet. I have an 18yo dd too, they're almost 2 years apart.

  I'm just glad the Pug has a good prognosis.  Lose weight....between 6 and 8 lbs..... wear the halo device, and go through the motions of moving her hips, front legs, neck and take it easy.

About accepting injustice, cats paw....
it doesn't mean I say it's OK.  It doesn't mean I stop doing everything I can do, reasonably, to remedy injustice.  It means I don't waste my life worrying and raging over things I simply cannot change.  That sets me up to think more clearly, be more responsive and get important things done I might otherwise not accomplish, bc I'm focused on what I can't change.

I hope that makes sense, and it is the serenity prayer, more or less.  Just a different way of looking at it, with the benefit of understanding how worry and rage activate survival mode in our brains, creating biochemical hijacking, shutting down the parts of our brains we NEED to problem solve, be reasonable/rational and creative.... all the things we need to positively impact our lives and bring about the best possible outcome, IME.

I notice it every day now.  How much clarity is available.... if I'm paying attention.  How much easier, simpler, more joyful my life is..... now.  BC I'm not wasting my energy spinning my wheels over the things I can't change.  And it's glorious to notice and live in that difference, IME.  It's a whole new mental space, and I believe I'll never get dragged back down to those lower, very unproductive, levels again.  I believe it 100%, then notice the little challenges popping up for me.

What would that MEAN IF I didn't react the way I always have?  Who would I be?  Who WILL I be?

And I talk myself through it.... I'll be more responsive Lighter.  More capable Lighter.  I'll have more clarity and ability to act.

That's who I'll be.  I think that's who I've become.

Cats Paw.... if I ever hurt you on the board, I didn't mean to. I've learned so much from some of the board strife.  It was a relatively safe place to SEE and practice and notice, observe and impact... be impacted BY conflict in a way that wasn't too scary or constly, etc. 

You'll tell me if I said anything I need to explain or apologize for.  I don't want to go back and read old threads.  I'm very happy in the present: )

Lighter





Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 31, 2020, 10:01:26 PM
I've shifted T appointments to every 2 weeks with the idea of spacing them out to 3 then 4 weeks.

I really loved seeing her face to face.  I feel I've worked through all the large issues.   I have tools I can access and apply now.  It's a comfortable transition.

I noticed how relaxed I was in the yard this evening with the Pug.  When oldest dd was way I felt the world was a slightlhy hostile place.... I'd look up at the tress at night... and remember feeling alone and vulnerable as a child on the highway.... the trees were so lonely looking. 

I realize I haven't had that kind of thought in.... well... I can't remember when I did, and that's a good thing. 

 I don't even look up into the trees at night.... haven't... don't feel like it..... I'm wondering why I spent so much time IN that headspace, then I remember.  I know that answer.  I have clarity on it.  It's going to be OK.

 It IS OK.  That is a true statement.  I believe it. 

More importantly....
I feel it in my body.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on July 31, 2020, 10:41:57 PM
That storm sounds like a brilliant analogy for life, Lighter, and one that we can't access when we're still dealing with all the 'stuff'.  I've got x, y and z in place.  I can do no more than that.  Let's just enjoy this.  Yes.  Amazing that you've come so far along this journey now that you can choose whether or not to be scared.  You've got that much control over your own responses now.  Wow.  Did you imagine you could get to that point?  I know over the many years I've been working on myself I've often wondered if I can reach a true state of 'I'm just doing my thing now' and genuinely not be thinking about other things.  What an inspirational story from you.  And it sounds like a lot of fun as well!  I love storms but I do remember being out in one once with my son and a thunder clap going off directly above us and dear Lord, my heart nearly stopped.  It's just so loud.  Mother Nature showing she's a bad ass :)

I really resonated with what you wrote about forming a secure attachment with yourself.  Makes so much sense and is something that can cause problems if we don't manage it in our earlier years, I think.  I've often felt that I'm acting at being a grown up, rather than actually being one.  I think the secure attachment is a part of being a grown up.

T's crying.  How do you feel about that?  I feel similar to how you feel about it, Tupp.
 The first time it happened I had the feeling the T had zero answers, and nothing helpful to say... though she very much wanted to help. She was very in tune with my story as I told it in present tense.... I talked about my late husband as though he was still with us.  I never referred to him in past tense..... he was IN MY FACE, still next to me, chasing and threatening me inside my head... relentlessly.  My nose was on the pebble, and my body was reacting..... my biochemistry had been hijacked for 2 years at that point.  I think she realized it, but had no vocabulary.... training to understand or HELP ME understand it. 
 She saw what was, but didn't understand how I got there, or what I needed to get myself OUT.    She didn't understand the concept of getting a nose off a pebble, IMO. 

  It would have helped me so much to have the ability to create emotional distance, and access my parasympathetic nervous system.... I had no idea what it was, much less what it did or how much control I had access to IF someone walked me through it.   That T had nothing to give, and her feeling of being helpless and hopeless, for me, made me feel I was inflicting my pain onto her,  and doing harm TO her.  I was in no position to caretaker her, so there was no question I wouldn't go back.  She didn't deserve to suffer with me, and I see now how a T CAN have empathy, but stay focused on calming the brain and body so the brain can do what it was made to do.... and does efficiently.... process information efficiently when stress is reduced.  When trauma is addressed and reduced.... consistently..... without judgment or expectation.... just very frank, helpful steps and avenues and zero judgment.  Well.... IME it's quite a trick to point out judgment of oneself WITHOUT judging.  Everything is about reducing stress... giving permission to be kind and forgiving with oneself, always.  Unconditionally.  Making it a priority.... and reminding it's not a perfect process. It's messy and comes nd goes and we return, gently, consistently, and continue on without losing focus on the mission.  I knew I couldn't help that T, so I didn't go back.  I couldn't help myself, much of the time.  There was no question I'd feel better while watching her suffer too.   

There was a Psychiatrist who saw my ASPD stbx with me, as a couple, and each on our own.  He'd headed up a male pscyh ward for.... criminally insane men...  I think. Written many books.  Was likely past the age of retirement...... and he spoke to me very frankly.  Zero compassion.  I read his notes.... I didn't much like him.  I remember almost losing control of my bladder in his office when he said... "The goal of these sessions has shifted from reconciling a marriage to keeping you alive during a potential divorce..... the danger isn't riding the tiger... the danger is in getting off the tiger."  I'm paraphrasing, of course. 

No one, up to that point, had been willing to consider I was in mortal danger.   HE understood, and he doubted my ability to divorce without being killed.  I remember it felt like the floor dropped out from under me....  adrenaline hit me..... it hit my feet and hands painfully.   All the while...  this man just blinked at me.... looking for..... a reaction?  My response?  I was just quiet... wide eyed.... very used to NOT showing any response, no matter what was said or done to me at that point.  But that T understood what he was seeing and hearing when he spoke to STBX ASPD.  His dx was  Psychopath with heavy N features. 

When I went back to see him, after ASPD died, The T was very flippant..... he said something like.... 
"You should have aimed for his foot."  I believe it was at that point I decided he was past the age of retirement.  He never had anything helpful to say.... ever.  He was always very hopeless..... he said.....
"there's nothing to be done.... you couldn't do anything different to get a different outcome... you're trapped... at the mercy of... etc."  Paraphrasing here, but that was the message AND he presented as someone with all the answers and very large ego.... had written books, blah blah..... very sure of himself, and had zero empathy.  That was equally unhelpful, but moved me into a deeper sense of dread and fear...... a whole'nuther level, in fact. 

The T who referred me to him was a psychologist who was getting pretty frustrated in a "THAT's what sociopaths DO" sort of way.   I'd say ASPD did THIS, and he'd respond in a droll manner... "That's what sociopaths DO."  And he had zero help to offer as well.   Just.... nothing outside "That's what Sociopaths DO."  He realllly needed me to GET THAT.  To stop talking about all the things being DONE TO ME and my children.  To.... do what?  I have no idea.  He had no tools for calming myself.  In fact, he often said things that were very upsetting... sort of like the Psychiatrist... very frank doomsday stuff about how I was at the mercy of.  He SO got that.  I remember him explaining to STBX ASPD how saying things to me like..... "He sure would be sorry if something bad happened to me in a divorce."  The T said it would have been like a man cleaning his fingernails with a big sharp knife, while telling his wife it sure woudl be terrible if anytihng bad happened to her.... if she didn't comply with him."  Just dreadful.  Not good answers.  NO answers at all, really. 

I wonder if I'd had tools for calming myself... not pills, if I'd have fought my way out of that situation and avoided all the trauma and terror and tragedy.  I won't know, but I clearly SEE how it would have helped, even if it didn't save us

__________________________________________________________. 
INSERT HERE:
I left out I'd spoken to ASPD STBX in anger ONE time during 3 year period in courts... He grabbed me on the stairs,  in front of witnesses, and hurt me.... I snapped back at him.....
"I'm going to divorce you and marry another man who your children will call Daddy." 

_____________________________________________________________
 


So, that one thing..... was a slip, said in anger.... with a man's hands on me in anger...... threatening... harming..... I said it and I meant it and he knew I did.   It was all but done and over in the courts, but so far away, bc ASPD was adept at using and manipulating the justice system.  I believed him when he said I'd be screaming, and running away like my hair was on fire just to escape the court system.... when it was all done and over.   He showed me what he meant, right from the start.  Manipulating my own attorney..... making it so hard.  Making me look insane, like a liar, like a participant on Jerry Springer show..... manipulating me with fear.... and see.... I really can't help but wonder how things would have gone if I HAD THESE TOOLS.  Could have calmed myself down.  I did what I could..... I had a really good neuromuscual massage T who unlocked things so I could breathe again.... walk again... get off the floor and keep going again.  I didn't have anyone who could do that with my mind, and it felt like I was blindfolded, on an operating table.... with all these shadowy men standing over me with sharp instruments..... and I was at their mercy.  I remember that vision vividly.   And I remember feeling I was standing on a high cliff.... toes over the edge..... wind whipping my hair around my face, wrapping it.... hair in my eyes and mouth.  The wind so loud I wouldn't be heard, even if I screamed, which I didn't. I'd learned to be still, and wait.  Just...... not move..... not react..... it was my default, until it wasn't, and then it was again, then it wasn't.  I'd be energized by a task.... get smacked down by someone on my team of attorneys, and they never all agreed on ANYTHING.   Then it just.... was my default. I think I'd still BE there if not for this T.

Another T.... somatic T..... did the "Feel your seat, wiggle your toes,  notice the trees" thing, but didn't explain anything about WHY  or what we were doing it for.  Nothing about about the brain, biochemistry, reactivity, fight or flight or parasympathetic nervous system.... nothing.  I guess I'm someone who does better with more information than less.  It seems like everything I've learned has built on itself, IME.

There were Ts in my first marriage.  The first one put me on Paxil, which shut down my body AND left me suffering physically on top of emotionally.  I fired him and made him write a letter stating he'd made a mistake prescribing Paxil, bc it was harmful, not helpful and wrong to prescribe in my case.  I was in a very dysfunctional marriage, and the next marriage counselor I saw just said it out loud..... after listening to my husband talk and talk and talk and complain about me.... just when it was MY turn to speak... the T shut it down, handed me a divorce attorney's card, STBX a divorce attorney's card, and told us to leave his office, and never speak to each other again, bc "H had no empathy for me, and every human being needs empathy." 

H and I left that appointment in a daze.  I felt voiceless, but had learned I often left that T's office feeling anger.  Then... later.... I sort of got what he was saying and agreed with him...but grudgingly.  That T was right, but he was also an ex marine with a very gruff manner, and old fashioned view of women that really did harm when I saw him with the ASPD stbx. 

That T was also the person who introduced me to my favorite martial arts instructor, so.... things sort of evened out.

 
 
e had many over the years who've cried in front of me and said they feel tearful and/or emotional about what I said and to be honest, I don't like it.   I get that's it's probably about showing you that it's okay to feel emotions and respond to them but I kind of like them to be strong and stoical.  I think it pings too much on my "I must look after you" buttons and I feel like I have to watch what I say so they don't get upset.  Does it bother you if they do it?  IF my current T had cried, I don't think it would have bothered me in the least, BC she very steadily moved along a healing path, and she's very centered and level in her own mind and body.  She has answers.  She knows how to share and teach them.  She has zero ego investment and she doesn't feel hopeless.  She has answers.  She's confident and that's her manner.... her tone.... her eyes pour out and transfer calm, caring reassurance....
all will be well, and I didn't understand it, at first, but she brought me along, however much I struggled or fought at times.... she found a way through, and I wasn't always able to hear her...... wasn't always able to understand or calm myself enough to understand.  That's more truthful. 


I saw her enough times..... was lead OUT of survival mode enough times to finally understand.... finally trust... finally comprehend how holding on to the injustice... mostly around my children being harmed and leveraged in order to harm me...... was doing ongoing harm I could check and reverse.  THAT was an important message I finally got.  I needed to hear it.  The current T has lived it herself.  She practices her own healing journey daily.  She's been here.  She's gotten herself out, and she's living a joyful life... she doesn't believe she has any problems when she things about it.  That's how far her nose IS.... off the pebbles.  As I gain more distance, I gain more understanding and control over my own perspective.  Expanding spaciousness for ourselves.....
is EVERYTHING.  That wouldn't have made any sense at all, this time last year. 


And seeing the world through the eyes of a child.  I've found that so much with my boy; giving him the sort of childhood my mum didn't give me - the playing and making mud pies, long walks in the woods gathering acorns and leaves, reading stories, dressing up, finger painting, all that stuff.  It was like it healed up the little girl in me who longed to do that.  My dad did that stuff with me, I was lucky in that respect.  It really helps all of us to have that happy childhood, I think, even if it's in adult life that it occurs.  Really lovely reading your posts.  I think this T is a very good fit for you.

I agree, ((Tupp))  I also believe the old saying...
when the student is ready, the teacher appears. 

I was ready.

You were ready.   

It's all OK: )

I so enjoyed reading about you and your boy enjoying making mud pies and BEING childlike together.  I'm glad your father allowed you to be your authentic little child self, without conditions.   So glad: )

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on July 31, 2020, 11:14:29 PM
This is very, very powerful, Lighter.
Yes, perhaps if you'd had those tools, there would have been a better way open.
It was what it was at that time.

It's such a good thing that you've become unfrozen and moved forward.

I think your present T is a genius, of a kind. I understand the impulse to stop therapy but hope you will consider even monthly, so just in case...you haven't broken continuity with her.

I could not live my comparably utterly humdrum life with humdrum-by-compariosn traumas without therapy, and I wonder at your capacity to always test yourself to the extreme limit of everything. What if there was really no need to do that, if keeping and maintaining a connection with this remarkable T could be a grounded, maintenance part of your well being? So you're not always working on it as a solo Amazon? Would it be worth asking yourself, do I HAVE to triumph completely, as in fighting all fights on my own because I've...won? Proven something? Vanquished?

Could there be a modified sense of victory that is good enough? For a settled life with inner peace? I just wonder if an all-out win over all of it is a fair goal for you.

Lastly, I really do see how physical your life is, where your wisdom is, where your hope is. You will always have this. Different, calmer strength. But I think you'll be one of those spry ancient ones some day. Not mighty, because mighty changes. But spry is pretty darn good. Especially when she's spry and happy.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on August 01, 2020, 03:18:06 AM
Lighter, I get chills whenever you write anything about the things your ex did and said.  I always get a picture in my mind of the husband in the film which I've forgotten the name of - Julia Roberts is in it, she fakes her death to get away from him and then when he finds her again he torments her by doing things like lining up the tins in the cupboard so that she knows he's there.  But it's that sort of casual instilling of fear that you so often hear of in relationships and it just makes me think, for the love of Mary, why can't we all just be nice to each other?  So many people damaged by other people's behaviour.  It gives me the chills.  I'm so glad you got away and even gladder that you've kept working to get yourself to such a calm and happy space now.

Those therapists you mention all belong in Dr G's book about how dodgy some therapy is!  I've been lucky, I think, I've had therapists who weren't a good fit but they've not done more than mildly annoy me really.  NHS therapists and mental health services in general, on the other hand, are a cesspit and seem to be entirely made up of the kind of people you've described so after a brief experience with them when I was younger I have avoided them like the plague ever since.

I think you and I are very similar in what helps us - I like to know how things work and why they do that and if someone tells me I need to do x, I need to understand why in order to do it.  I think there's a good point between fact based information and empathy and it sounds like your current T is in that place.  So good that she's got you to such a good place of understanding.  Yes, you were ready and the teacher appeared!  So happy for you.  Want to give you a transatlantic cuddle (socially distanced, anyway) :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on August 01, 2020, 10:53:58 AM
Lighter - that's the most I think I've seen you say about your experience. I'll bet there was a LOT of processing needed to be able tell it like that. It gets easier.

I grok the freeze instinct you describe; I experienced a bit of that too. But I was way more comfortable with my fight & flight reflex (back then I was a fast runner) and for me, that was my avenue back to trusting myself again. Recognizing that I'd done all I could do; I didn't give up - even though I "lost" anyway. Compassion was necessary at that point; self-empathy in a way... but it wouldn't have fixed the real root problem of trusting my self. How I came to blame myself for much much more - was almost a separate issue and way more complex.

YES, understanding how our brains work fills in a lot of blanks. The wonderful ability of mind-body connection to heal/calm/clarify really & truly needs to be utilized a LOT more often as an adjunct to other therapeutic methods.

Sometimes, I think it can all be (over)simplified down to shifting our thinking, feeling, rumination and obsessions away from we accept we CAN'T do... to accepting and acting on, what we CAN.

After the healing stage, comes restoring. Sometimes there are changes made during restoration; for strength or cohesiveness; clarity/unity of expression. You sound REALLY good; I'm happy for you!
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 02, 2020, 12:13:07 PM
Hops:

I'm not giving up my T.   I do want to feel good about the time and money I'm spending, and more time between visits means I'll have time to identify larger issue between appointments. 

That's my instinct, and that's the plan: )  Every other week, until I feel every 3 weeks, then monthly.  I won't stop.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 02, 2020, 12:21:57 PM
Tupp:

::sending cuddle back to Tupp::

It's been my experience that more information leads to more success and deeper understanding of difficult concepts.  Truthfully, having bad experiences with other Ts helped me understand how great this T IS.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 02, 2020, 12:41:12 PM


Sometimes, I think it can all be (over)simplified down to shifting our thinking, feeling, rumination and obsessions away from we accept we CAN'T do... to accepting and acting on, what we CAN.


Right, Amber.  I think you're right here.  The problem is..... we're usually not wired that way.  We're usually wired all kinds of wrong ways and don't even realize it.  You know the drill; )

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 02, 2020, 01:51:04 PM
Lighter,

You brought back a lot of memories. After my divorce I went to ONE therapist who said, after I had completed my story, "let's get you on some meds. You can't be okay after an experience like that." The fact is, I WAS okay--well not in the grand scheme of things, but I was in the immediate. Never went back. 

I'm sorry that happened to you, CB.  There's a lot of marginal and bad Ts out there.  I thank God for Doc G and this board.  I'm so grateful for the Ts who help and don't harm. 

Watching movies is hard. So much of the sub plot is this kind of crap that women have to live through(most esp the historical stuff I like to watch). Can't decide if the stories are worth the PTSD.

Youngest dd and I were talking about how there aren't really thaaaaat many plots.  Sometimes I see that SO clearly.  Like a laser. 

Everyone focuses on the symptoms... the conditions.  They don't call out the causes for what they are... common and something the global community should develop zero tolerance policies for.  That's not the way it is, though, and somehow I manage to not feel despair while pondering it.   I used to feel ONLY despair.     
 It's maddening, don't get me wrong, but there's an absence of despair now.   People are entertained... not moved to CHANGE the foundational reasons we're dealing with all this drama, and writing stories and scripts......  and that's OK too.

I just SEE it so clearly.   It's my need for my external world to line up with my internal world... I think.  The INFP in me.  I've passed this intense desire for justice to my youngest dd.  She noted that too, yesterday.   She doesn't see it as a positive attribute.  More of a curse, unfortunately.

When you watch your favorite programs....
I wish you more emotional distance, expanded resilience and less reactivity.  The reactivity... the PTS is devastating.  I hope it transforms into an ability to respond and be responsive in the ways you can be.  The ability to act, and do what we can, is part of healing, IME.

I'm glad you got out too, CB.

Lighter

 



CB
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 03, 2020, 04:04:42 PM
I read Hops SHAME thread and think....
however did I get anything done when I spent SO much time judging myself, sneering at imperfection and setting expectations, one after another.... bargaining with every bit of downtime I allowed myself to recover enough to get back up and slog unhappily through years of danger, threat and DOING things to survive, rather than feel joy. 

BLECK.  Just a completely different mindset I don't miss at all, IME. 

To view oneself as a cog.... a wheel.... a thing in motion or NOT in motion, and judge that so harshly.

It's painful to look back at the last 15 or so years.
Nose on the pebble living is very painful. 

There's an investment of time and cranky resistence to breathing spaciousness into our consciousness... to seeing the entire field, and getting one's nose off a pebble.  There will always be pebbles.  I'm amazed that spaciousness seems to be a lasting feature, once achieved.  I don't understand it, entirely, but it makes it easy to be dismissive of the time spent trifling and judging myself to my detriment.  I SEE that so very clearly now.  I've internalized it, and it took time, and persistence and consistent redirection BACK to that very helpful truth.

Looking back... I wonder how I got what I DID get done... done while tying up so much time judging and suffering. 

I had help, as Amber said on another thread.  Sometimes the people we depend on don't help or they make things worse.  Discerning who is helping, and who's making things harder, without getting sucked down another rabbit hole, isn't easy, IME. I guess the codependence stuff is woven throughout these moments. 

Gently ignoring people, who do more harm than good, is a skill, IME.  We learn to make peace with it.  We don't automatically do and understand it.

 At this point... There's suffering and responding and responsiveness, rather than reacting and shame and judgment, though it does pop up.  I manage it.  Banish it, mostly.  Marvel at the times it remains silent, and how nice the space is without it. 

10 years ago... there was suffering and tearing off a raw piece of survival with my teeth.... shutting out someone doing harm, and allowing some unexpected person to step up and help in ways a stranger or person NOT obligated to help.... when receiving was so very difficult... created so much shame.... it was a super hard time to admit I needed help and worse..... to receive it.  There was also humiliation at HAVING to depend on others..... ask for help..... be told they didn't want to get involved, etc.  I had expectations for them, and they were wrong expectations.  Expectations I held for my very helpful self.... just so unhelpful to set expectations and SEE outcomes that would be morphing and changing all along, as plots unraveled.

I had an idea how things worked.... an understanding things would BE Ok, even if they weren't OK, but I was hard ,pressed to lean on it when threatened in ways I couldn't escape, mostly involving my children.  Having to SIT and BE inside my head, in peril physically, attacked from every direction and in ways I couldn't discern ahead, but knew to be imminent.... that's a place where internalized trust of SELF and releasing outcome is vital, yet at the time, impossible with the tools and coping strategies I had available to me.

But there's a thread of knowing.... intuition, I suppose.  I regret not living INSIDE that space, and I think....
I'm there, in that space, now.  I've always said that, but now I understand better.  Have internalized it more fully and received such relief and succor from inhabiting it, which isn't like flipping a switch. 

Letting old habits and strategies go isn't easy.  It's a process. It opens up space for new things and ways of being... coping.... experiencing joy instead of suffering.  That's a winning trade, every time, IME.  Understanding that, I'd have jumped at it years ago, but I didn't have the ability... I didn't have the right teacher.

 It's helpful to have a hand to hold.... someone who's been there, done that.  It moves one through more easily, more quickly, with less suffering and time, IME.

I must tell you... there were days when just looking into T's eyes brought me to hot tears..... without a word passing between us.  To be seen with such compassion... really seen and appreciated and known and..... was very powerful and healing, and I have to think, in my case, necessary.

To have my fingers pryed off old coping strategies, from different directions, in different ways, with different tools... to have it explained to me as I resisted and reacted and experienced anger and resentments..... it all came up band it came out, like vomiting..... or like wind ruffling blinds, up and out of my lungs or like waking without suffering and noticing it.  Just..... being amazed and so relieved..... without thinking about it..... inhabiting new, very neutral head space...... leading to more joy,  without always thinking it through, for sure.

And accepting the new.....
being able to get comfortable and trust it was real....
trust it will lead to more discoveries, more comfort, and more joy.  Somtimes one finds a smile they can't wipe from their face, and it's just.... very...  unexpected, but real and powerful and as simple as living fully in the moment.  What did those words EVER mean all the times we've heard and said them?

That huge smile.... that huge joy, that's what it meant, and I resist feeling resentful, even now, about my inability to understand it, and people's inability to EXPLAIN it so I could understand it.   I very clearly see it's not simple, it can't be grasped (from my POV) simply..... there are different approaches and pieces of  information pointing one to inhabiting different space.... rather than just understanding..... but inhabiting new spaces, and knowing HOW nad WHY one may get there adds to the experience and internalizing it, IME. 
 
Fingers being pried off... fingers being placed onto new tools and beliefs and habits..... it's complicated, and yet... pieces of it are much simpler than I can believe.  The processing... the brain's ability to make lasting change, in milliseconds, that's perhaps the most powerful truth in all this, IME.   To trust it's easy, and lean into it... stop questioning it and doubting. 

At some point one stops resisting and looks forward to what comes next, bc of new and informative experiences... bc experiences of proof, I guess.

 TRUST it's OK to not judge. Trust being super curious instead.. .without questions.... is just the rigth thing to do, and so it becomes familiar and questioning it, at some point, drops away and before you know it, it's BECOMING a new default... a new brain setting.... what your brain chooses over all the old default settings, and then it's just how one lives, IME.

It takes energy to judge, and question and internalize shame and let the voices of people who installed critical programs rule, IME. 

And it feels like eating bees, IME.  We eat a handful of bees, then suffer, bc we eat handfuls of bees, without thinking, and get frustrated and feel shame we aren't more productive, energetic and happy.  That seems very odd to me now. I didn't use to understand how my internal world was sabotaged and my inability to SEE what was really happening was..... needed... required my attention and tending to. 

Tending to my internal world lead to SEEING the sabotage, and putting a finger on the voices someone else installed.  Being critical of myself was automatic, even when I took a break and stuffed my mind with distraction.... it was still THERE, I'd just made a bargain with myself.  It always lead back to the same place, bc eating handfuls of bees was the only food I knew to eat.

How in the world did I have the expectation I could turn that handful of bees into calm, peace and ability to SEE choices and respond.  Eating bees is the stuff reactivity is made of, IME.  That expectation, for myself, was of course going to lead to more reactivity and disappointment and suffering.

 Shifting ones emotional diet to something healthier..... it's a new texture.... it's not as exciting or emotionally engulfing..... sometimes it's boring, compared to bee eating, IME.   

One just gets through it... while noticing what's there.  We let space empty out, and don't rush to fill it... we just notice it.  Remembering there are new tools is very difficult in these moments,  but eventually, if one resists condemning oneself for failing to just DO it perfectly, one sees how it works.  One gains access and can choose tools  without so much confusion and pain and judgment, which is sort of the key to having access, space and ability freed up.... bc we STOP doing the things that normally take up our time and energy and consequently are the things blocking access to calming our brains to allow processing and refining in historic files those things dogging us..... rolling around in our brains, bc trauma froze them there and keep them RIGHT THERE...in one's face, all the time.

It feels circular, and it is...
until it's not. 

The thing that ends the circular suffering is the....
new skillset....
resting in awareness....
deep self compassion that doesn't judge when one falters.....
releasing expectation......
getting very curious about what's there, and what comes next.

Zero judgment is necessary.

And none of this is easy or simple, bc there are so many moving pieces, and that's OK. 

If I can work towards it, anyone can. 

Every Amazon on this board is talented and used to surviving.  Has survived terrible things.  CAN get herself through and out of whatever comes up.

Trusting that, so the mind can calm itself.....
tending to the mind when survival comes up....
tending to it like it's a small child.... like it's our own small frightened child self....
and reassuring her she's OK... we're going to take care of her.  We can do that now... our adult, grown up self has that ability and it's safe to rest now.

That's all mixed up in the process, and our child selves are ready to be reassured and to rest.  To trust. 

I look back over the threads on this forum and wonder at what we've accomplished with the tools we've had access to.  How strong we were.  How strong we are to have gotten ourselves through. 

Where is the place where the new skills aren't more clutter, bringing up shame, bc using them seamlessly isn't possible..... they sometimes become more clutter, and that's devastating, IME. 

BUT, moving through, even when there's no payoff or there's more suffering and confusion...... when adding the addition of feeling overwhelmed on top of what lead to seeking "feeling better."  It's amazing one gets beyond, bc habit and brain pathways and default settings are things to be noticed, understood, examined again with the addition of CHOICE,  identified and introduced as something possible to choose, necessary to choose, as a way to suffer less... to experience joy... then more joy.

And then it happens.  Unexpectedly, bc IME, no one can understand something they've never really experienced, outside the sense of "flow" one sometimes finds, seemingly out of the blue, and unexpected.... the light switch that goes on without flipping it cotnsciously.... one finds that, and it's supposed to happen, but one didn't expect it to happen.   One is SURPRISED by the experience.   Waiting for it to dissipate, perhaps be conjured up and not real at all, but it persists, and there's joy and surprise and......
knowing.

Experiencing the fruits and flowers of the work, the doubt, the dismissing of self judgment and managing to  trust and work with the new tools, as one can, while remaining neutral.... refusing to judge.... embracing the new, and releasing outcome.  It's like juggling, only juggling really difficult to hold in one's mind concepts, and unfamiliar habits.... habits taking up energy and space in our brains.

Having space in our brains is necessary.  It means we find ways to STOP reacting and filling our brains up with old default settings, but first....
one must nOTICE those things.  Become aware.  Resist judging them, and that gets easier, IME, bc just SEEING what's IN there...... is super interesting.

I want to know what's behind what I've seen.  I want to continue unwrapping boxes of information and turn them over in my hands and mind and decide what to do with them. 

I'm relieved I have tools to SEE and deal with these things. 

I feel empowered.

I don't feel overwhelmed as often.....and I trust I will feel overwhelmed by certain situations.  Having strategies to deal with them, even if I react and fail in the face of them, I know I'll slow down, remember to breathe or push on walls and manage brain integration, again, to bring about better outcomes than were possible this time last year. 

Once the ball is rolling.... it rolls quickly, IME.  I feel it rolled more quickly for Tupp than it did for me, but I accept our brains and readiness are different.  Not better or slower or whatever judgment I could place on it.

I'm simply relieved and leaning into trust... not hope, but trust. 

Where I was hopeful, but didn't trust.... I now understand, have exerperienced enough relief to KNOW... without doubting.  New territory is always intimidating, maybe triggering or threatening.  Positive experiences make choices apparent and known and possible to own.  Choosing, having choice more often, becomes habit, and then it's the default setting.... without realizing it...... it's THE default setting without thinking about it.

I'm writing this out as much for myself, as for the board.  It's like SEEING something, many somethings, important somethings.... again, from different angles, putting pieces together that weren't together before, and driving more deeply into understanding of how they work, and why they work. 

Understanding how they weren't present, how they weren't available, how I missed them, and understanding how things could have shifted and been changed.  I don't regret.   I merely want to understand, and internalize the depth of having choice and access to logic, creativity and problem solving skills where there was ONLY reactivity before. 

It seems so obvious, yet there was so much time where I could ONLY see ONE PEBBLE at a time.   I had no distance to SEE the entire field, and now I see.  Now I have access to creating more space, which is amazing, bc all the space I've created has remained in tact.  Not coming and going, though I'm sometimes reactive, I have access to choice and it's all tied into what I no longer do....
judge myself, natter myself with shoulds and should haves.... compare myself to others..... think about how my choices or inability to DO things like keep clutter cleared impact my life negatively..... I think, instead.....
I'll deal with that when it's time. 

What does it matter, today, or in 100years, if that remains undealt with?

I always shrug, bc it doesn't really matter.  It's not really a problem, and when I feel it is I'll pick it up and deal with it,  in my way, when it's time.  I might have to ask for help, and that's cool too.  I'm great at some things, I have super powers, ansd the flip side of those super powers is always going to be the things I'm not so strong in.

No darkness without light.

No good without evil.

No strength without weakness.

It's not something to struggle against and wish was different.  It's something to accept and get curious about. 

Wishing and hoping things are different is very much like running a program in the computer that is our brain, IME. 

Sometimes these programs run in the background, but they suck up so much energy... we're always wondering why we have so little energy.

When we notice and become aware of these programs.... we SEE what's there, and gain more choice.  Choice  about that particular program, and any other programs we've yet to identify. 

We get to choose between running that program OR not running it.   We become aware of the absence of running those programs. 

Choosing self compassion... .choosing to rest in awareness..... these aren't new programs...... but they make choice available, IME.

Rest and self compassion are tools/habits we cultivate.

The fruits and flowers are doors appearing, and sometimes clanging open leading to more doors and choice and creative options we couldn't see before.

By this time, one trusts the tools. 
The energy, previously spent questioning and doubting, is available for other things.

That's HUGE!  To SEE what's going on, mine spaciousness.... create emotional distance (window of resilience) so we can see the entire field.... and the field is vast, and larger than we can know.... it continues to expand, which is amazing.

The royal we continues to be amazed and to trust and to lean into wonder and curiosity... and doors continue to open.  Choice continues to present itself.  Creative options appear, and the royal we is astonished at all the years it was absent.

I was so proud of myself for getting through what I got through IN THAT while in surival mode.  What could I have done if I'd been able to integrate my brain, free up energy spent fearing, and ACT in creative ways I had no access to?

I'll never know, but I do know this. 

The next years of my life will be spent mining joy and seeking out things I want more of.   

I don't have to waste any energy regretting or worrying about repeating it, bc I've been there.  I know what that is.  I've moved through and out the other side.  The relief is real and permanent. 

My girls are repeating things I've said, and I don't think they understand that. I notice they're employing tools I didn't teach, bc they weren't willing to listen if I tried to share.  But they're learning from watching, and they're doing what's been modeled for them.

I think having ME back is a relief for them.  Maybe they don't consciously remember who I was, when they were 4 and 6, but a part of them is experiencing relief and ease and awareness. 

And it can be as easy as that.  A switch going on, even though there's electrical engineers sweating and working and striving and making choices in the background... and sometimes just slipping into a rhythm, effortlessly.... there are no switches flipping themselves.  It's us, and it's always been us.  We do it when we aren't paying attention.

Imagine what we can do WHEN we pay attention!

::nodding::

Yup yup yup.

That: )

Lighter


 

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 04, 2020, 01:44:50 PM
I don't have an appointment with my T this week, for the first time in a long time.  Will have to see when we began sessions.

I did contact her about a difficult conversation I had with a friend about something awful that happened to that friend.   Friend is suffering.... really badly.  Just so.... touching and I so want to help her feel better.  This upset me very badly and I contacted the T via text.  She texted back SELF CARE... all about self care.  I should go back to SELF CARE.

Now, I WANTED T to solve my friend's issues.  Should we go to the police?  Take matters into our hands?!?!?  Surely she'd have that answer, and I NEEEEDED that answer, bc I needed to act.  The tiger was chasing me... I was in survival mode, and that made me less helpful than I wanted to be....  there was shame over SEEING myself say things I wish I could STOP saying, but couldn't.

I wish I'd done more listening.... and not felt compelled to fix anything.  I wish I'd filled the space, left by NOT trying to fix everything... with silent compassion.

Will put that on the list with T to discuss more fully. 

Also, today, I'm focusing on what I'm doing.  I'm refusing to allow myself to focus on what I'm not doing. 

I hop to and get things done, with joy, when I'm not casting LIVE! DIE! LIVE! DIE! judgments everytime I see sometihng requiring attention, eventually.  Lots of things need attention, but I have more ability to discern what's a priority now, and NOT allow small things to derrail the BIG picture. 

Phhht.

I can do this; )

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on August 09, 2020, 09:32:39 AM
Shifting ones emotional diet to something healthier..... it's a new texture.... it's not as exciting or emotionally engulfing..... sometimes it's boring, compared to bee eating, IME.   

That really stuck out for me, Lighter, almost as the centre of all of it.  I think if you've lived in a highly stressed state, for whatever reason - family issues, life threatening situation, high powered job, whatever the cause of the drama - as much as we don't want that any more, it is hard to shift down a gear (or ten) and adjust to quiet, routine, slower pace.  I know how tired I get now from a relatively small amount of stimulation or stress and when I think back to being far more stressed than that, all the time, it does make sense that your body just gets used to it physically, in the same way it gets used to alcohol or cocaine or tobacco or whatever else you might be using.  It's not as exciting or as engulfing but I am finding more and more now that I have a deeper sense of satisfaction.  It feels more concrete and less transient than it used to.  It's not there all the time but it's there more of the time.  Are you finding that as well? xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on August 09, 2020, 10:03:13 AM
Lighter,
I'm so glad you've stopped eating bees.
Now you might be eating crickets instead: boring, vaguely nutty-tasting, but very nourishing and high in protein. (Cricket flour is in our futures....)

I can see/feel how far you've come, how grateful you are. It's good to see you looking at your own internal savannah.

It's also neat to hear about you resisting the compulsion to rescue your friend and offer silent compassion instead. Just as your T offered you, when the hot tears sprang.

Wow.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 09, 2020, 10:37:44 AM
Yes, Tupp. 

I think there's chemical, structural and belief system changes taking place in the brain to account for feeling more concrete and less transient.

We learned new coping strategies, so they're available, even if we stutter and sputter remembering them....using them....temporarily losing access to them, bc of stress / biochemical hijack, etc.

I see it this way....
as long as I remain engaged and willing to rest in awareness, I continue driving and deepening lessons and skills resulting in more positive experience, building more trust and belief in familiar directions, but also areas I haven't discovered.  It's building on itself, and please remember....small gains, for me, are precious things.

They sometimes feel like a tiny synapses, but I feel it like a new building block dropped into place.

Some people have many powerful physical experiences, but that wasn't me.  I had one or two, which shocked and amazed me. I guess I had no hope that would happen.  I thought the entire process would be a slog, and it feels like a lot of it has....
But...
The slogging relieved tension on the brain, and the brain, once out from stress locking it into fight or flight, is an amazing thing.

I believe we've made permanent changes in our brains....bc brain plasticity.

It's my opinion new permanent changes will feel similar to the first.....there will be learning and remembering to use the new tools and strategies....kindness with ourselves, then more permanent and deepening lasting change.  Even if there's stuttering along the way, which isn't defeat.  It's the stuff relief is built from, ime.

So, ya....me too: )

 Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 09, 2020, 10:40:27 AM
Thanks, ((Hops.))

Here's to everyone putting down their bee eating forks.....to letting the bees buzz on by.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 14, 2020, 02:24:13 PM
So, company will be here tomorrow. 

It feels right, and good and comfortable to me.

I'm engaged happily in organizing, cleaning and editing the house and this is what I've noticed about that:

I'm enjoying the fruits of taking proactive steps, over time and proactively, in what used to be overwhelming jobs.  I didn't decide to DO it.  It just began happening, and I was enjoying the DOING of these things.  Today I'm enjoying the doing of the jobs, particularly bc there are so many steps out of the way.  I'm in the zone, and it feels comfortable.  It's not amazing or interesting in a...
GEE,  THIS IS GREAT!  I'M IN THE ZONE, not sure why, BUT I'M THERE, and IT's GREAT AND I'm GETTING LOTS OF STUFF DONE! YAAAY!  Hope it stays. 

I'm just moving through a very balanced, energized,  happy ZONE, which IS new for me.   It's no longer THE ZONE, which was my normal.... however rare and mysterious..... that's shifted.

The relaxed self care....  the doing of things NOT leading to finishing said thing, which was one reason I;ve been overwhelmed so easily..... EVERY job had to be done JUST RIGHT, and a certain way and certainly with a particular expectation for just how that would look and feel.   I mean....  creating sacred space.... whenever touching cleaning supplies... is, looking at it with some distance I didn't notice I was creating in this area..... a bit much. 

The judment dropped away. 

The comparisons dropped away.... which frees up energy for DOING and BEING present and engaged and curious, rather than uptight and fearful and judgmental. 

Judging others, meant I was judging myself, and that seems really obvious now, but will post it again,  in case I forget.

Judging myself is just messed up, and counterproductive in every way, IME.

And so I continue moving through all the clothing we're growing in and out of,  bc that's the case with the three of us IN this house right now.  We're exchanging clothing, figuring out what won't fit any of us, and passing these things on. 

I'm ready to make that drop this evening, when I LOVE dropping off at the Goodwill near us..... in the dark..... with no one looking.  What is up with that?  Don't care.  Maybe it's a sort of purge.... not shameful, BUT I really DON'T want to be judged...and now I don't care. Again.  I'm taking it at face value.  It means open sunny spaces, improved organization and ability to find the things we use daily... without struggle. 

That's a really nice place to be, IME.

In the meantime, I'm not setting any goals for how the house will be when guests arrive.  These folks KNOW us and me and we've lived together, so..... welcome and maybe you can help me with this ONE organization block I've identified by the time you arrive, guests.

Not afraid to ask for help.  Not afraid to need it.  Not afraid to be seen as needing help... and that's new.... flowing.... feeling pretty integrated.

Integrated is a pretty good word and IS THIS my brain firing on all cylinders?  I think, ya... maybe it is.  There's no struggle or ON OFF switch.... just moving along, with economy of motion and zero worry about the process or outcome.

And....
wow. 

There's space for appreciating what I love in my life...honoring those items I use all the time.....
there's space.... more space......
there's flow and no thinking about purpose or priorities.....
just....
 flow.

Flow is amazing.  Flow is cleaning a floor, walking the dog, gathering flowers and branches for porch flower arrangements, getting them in water for the time being,  then moving back into he house to check on laundry...  find the ROOBMBAS, handling them, getting them back to work, then dealing with more clothes, which seems ultra managable right now,  then enjoying some of the clean open spaces accumulating over the last months and  moving on the the next thing without suffering or doubt or fear or....
stress.

Zero stress.   

I dealt with a health professional earlier, and didn't have an emotional blip as I dismissed her as not a right fit for youngest dd, and got off the phone after a quick statement about what we would be doing... seeing the gal we usually see in that office.  I discussed the plan with youngest dd, we agreed, and now I'm looking forward to getting right back to what I've been doing happily all day.  Just moving through the stuff, and cleaning without pressure KNOWING it WILL feel like sacred space, even if I don't struggle and hurt myself in the process.

And maybe I've associated suffering with proper cleaning, partially bc my father drove it into my head with a hot poker (fig.)

What a relief... to not HAVE to clean like an abused PD farm wife who looks down on everyone else for their marginal, unworthy efforts at cleaning, even as her husband cheated on her in a very public manner and she couldn't eat all the yummy things she made for everyone in the kitchen, bc Type I diabetes and health problems stemming from being denied medical care by her abusive father who beat her bloody for things her brothers did, AND forced her to drink baking soda water before her appendix burst and the doctor held up her guts, like rotted worms, and doubted she'd ever recover during the emergency surgery she was lucky to receive at all . 

Whoo... glad that's off my plate, bc it did suck.

Things ARE changing.  I'm limiting the insanity IN MY LIFE and it's nice to trust myself to do that,  bc I do trust myself to DO that.  I don't fear or doubt any more.  Like getting off the phone with the healthcare person.  I didn't need her to understand, and I didn't care if she did, which was pretty obvious in her shock, and I got on with my day, sans judgment... just new for me, bc lots of bad history with healthcare professionals.
 Amazing.....
 Freedom.

Ya, that.

Lighter, going back to what she was doing. 

Happily: )









Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on August 14, 2020, 08:31:37 PM
That gory horror story was your mother, Lighter?
I am so sorry.
It sounds like generational trauma.

I had a friend whose grandparents were driven out
of Turkey by soldiers with rifle-butt blows and starvation on the
way and her mother inherited and re-enacted the trauma of
the grandmother with an intensity and violence my friend
only understood later. That insight about generational trauma
was a revelation to me. Similar to what some Jewish friends
carry even as the generations make the Holocaust recede.

It made sense to me when I read about science that showed
in other species, say monkeys, ONE generation would learn
to use a tool in a new way....and a next generation that was
NOT raised by the parents who'd learned it, would still show
the new skill as they matured. The experience was encoded
in the DNA, in a way that expressed psychologically.

I find that amazing and wondrous, because I would think
that learning/encoding could be about positive discoveries
as much as traumatic ones.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 16, 2020, 08:38:05 PM
The story was about my father's mother, Hops.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on August 17, 2020, 08:48:44 AM
So nice to read, Lighter, without the judgement or the pressure to get things done, get things right, not to upset or offend (healthcare professional) - just doing the day, easy process, doing it as it needs to be done rather than super charging through the list.  Nice!

And so sad about your father's mum.  The obsessive cleaning seems to be a thing we've all talked about on here; I do feel it was very much the way women proved their worth in a time when they couldn't access education and to be divorced or single was considered a very bad thing.  I used to have a friend who cleaned obsessively; she was abused as a child and even a tiny speck of dust in her house made her feel so filthy that she couldn't cope with it and just cleaned all the time.  It's sad how we look back and see the way our parents, grandparents, great grandparents all dealt with the things that made them feel unhappy or worthless and how those things became things by which we were judged (not clean enough, not pretty enough, not well behaved enough) and so we take that forward and so on.  Generational trauma, Hops, as you said.

And then I wonder about the current generation and if their parents are damaging them in the same way, by not making them clean or wash clothes or take their turn to cook dinner.  Most of my friends' kids do nothing around the house and generally money is just given to them without any condition attached.  I wonder if that does them a disservice for later life, in the same way that I feel my mum constantly cleaning did to us (I don't think it damaged us that she cleaned all the time, but it would be really nice to have some memories of finger painting with her or making pasta necklaces or something).  Be interesting for all of us to be looking back at some point in the future and seeing how the patterns change or if they do.

I've digressed again!  I'm glad you're in the flow.  Are your friends still there? xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 17, 2020, 11:46:47 AM
So nice to read, Lighter, without the judgement or the pressure to get things done, get things right, not to upset or offend (healthcare professional) - just doing the day, easy process, doing it as it needs to be done rather than super charging through the list.  Nice!
Yes!  No lists.  I'm pretty familiar with what needs doing, by now, in my life.  There are things that MUST be done to standard..... even if the standards are changing, and I trust I'll DO that without badgering myself, driving myself and scaring myself all day about them, kwim?
 BTW company came and we had a terrific time.  They didn't spend the night, though the house was ready for spend the night guests.  We cooked, with the guy pulling grill meister duty..... just an amazing time and the girls and I are luxuriating in a very clean house, very happy ME and going out and doing stuff... yesterday was cool and breezy.  Youngest and I just went into the world and did stuff..... bought Chinese cooking wine, gf soy sauce, and black sesame seed oil..... SNOW PEA LEAVES!  We  love snowpea leaves,except for pulling them off the stems, and we made a terrific yummy meal, seeing chicken then roasting it in the yummy sauce with eggplant we got at the FARMER's MARKET!  We love the farmers market but haven't been in months, and we also got corn and big slicing tomatoes... the ugly ones.... amazing and we're going back to get peaches TODAY... will leave after this post, in fact: )


And so sad about your father's mum.  The obsessive cleaning seems to be a thing we've all talked about on here; I do feel it was very much the way women proved their worth in a time when they couldn't access education and to be divorced or single was considered a very bad thing.  I used to have a friend who cleaned obsessively; she was abused as a child and even a tiny speck of dust in her house made her feel so filthy that she couldn't cope with it and just cleaned all the time.  It's sad how we look back and see the way our parents, grandparents, great grandparents all dealt with the things that made them feel unhappy or worthless and how those things became things by which we were judged (not clean enough, not pretty enough, not well behaved enough) and so we take that forward and so on.  Generational trauma, Hops, as you said.  It gives me the same terrible feeling of helplessness to read that, as it does to hear about eating disorders and being trapped in abusive relationships to keep little children safe.  Just helpless.

And then I wonder about the current generation and if their parents are damaging them in the same way, by not making them clean or wash clothes or take their turn to cook dinner.  Most of my friends' kids do nothing around the house and generally money is just given to them without any condition attached.  I wonder if that does them a disservice for later life,I'm pretty sure it does. in the same way that I feel my mum constantly cleaning did to us (I don't think it damaged us that she cleaned all the time, but it would be really nice to have some memories of finger painting with her or making pasta necklaces or something). Awww, you so deserved finger painting memories and making little valentine cards with your mum. Be interesting for all of us to be looking back at some point in the future and seeing how the patterns change or if they do.  I was talking to my T about some of this... and I think my sister and I were buffered by the fact we had each other, as twins, always.  We found things to do, even when we were alone for long periods of time... we were playing at the edge of a pond, waving orange safety flags in the road, drawing on walls, playing in a sandbox, on a swingset, in the orchard, and just basically running around to the neighbor's houses getting yummy treats, and helping out in the garden, etc.  We had lots of freedom, but we filled that time with social, physical and creative outlets, even if we were punished for some of them.  Try flushing your mum's bc pills down the toilet and see if she's as happy about it as you are... not.  WE DID THAT.  We'd scoot our cribs together, then crawl back and forth.  Once, I'm told, we emptied our diapers and finger painted on the wall, never a dull moment with twins, and we always ALWAYS blamed little brother, even when he was flat on his back newly born.... "brother did it!"  So.... I don't think we missed having a mother sit down and do things with us, bc I don't recall that she did.   I remember watching mom's angry feet stomp by the bed, sister and I were hiding under, as she looked for us.... not sure what we'd done, but she was mad and we were getting spanked.  I remember being spanked and sat on front stoop, to have a proper cry, AFTER my mother failed to properly supervise us... that's when we were waving flags in the road.  For the life of me, I don't understand why parents hit little kids for their own failures.   She should have spanked herself, not us.   

I've digressed again!  I'm glad you're in the flow.  Are your friends still there? xx  Friends didn't spend the night, but they will in the winter, as will cousins, and I'm pretty sure I digressed all over the place.  Have to get youngest dd and go to the school now, then farmer's market, for peaches! 
Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 20, 2020, 09:21:40 PM
I've been thinking a lot about Victor Frankl and how our ability to get off painful pebbles isn't easy.  It's hard.  It's sometimes not possible, but it's always available, however difficult the lessons are to find. 

I remember my martial arts instructor attempting to teach me to meditate in 2008, which I sorely needed to learn, but failed. 
The effort backfired, in more than one way, and I became pretty intransient in my belief around meditation as elitist... perhaps viewing it as a difficult puzzle requiring keys I just didn't have. Keys being kept from me.... perhaps those who had them chuckled at my expense and of all those who couldn't SEE and grasp them?  I wasn't sure... but I was frustrated and angry and defensive around the entire topic for over 10 years... when I needed it most,  frankly.   


After all this time, of focus on 3 or 4 very large, jagged pebbles..... my girls have grown into smart, capable adults.  Capable of protecting themselves, which has been an ever present mantra through it all.   When the girls are old enough... when the girls can protect themselves. 

That reality frees me up-my energy up, to do other things.  Not spinning my wheels suffering over and over, frees up more energy still.   I can feel the space.... I can feel the possibility.... and it's thrilling, but only for a second.  Something shuts it down.  I don't understand that yet, but I'll keep chipping away at it.  Noticing what it is, and not judging it. 

About my inability to meditate.  It seems so far away now, not that I believe I can do it well.  The fact I reap benefits and freedom and less suffering, bc of time spent being walked through it....hand held, really..... being shown how,  from so many different points of view... shown, educated, allowed to SEE...eventually..... it's everything. 

Being shown was the key I needed to figure it out.  The saying goes...

When the student is ready, the teacher appears."  Something like that, and it was the case for me.


There's zero shame in needing help.... zero judgment for not being able to figure out myself.  It is how it needed to be, and that's all. 


I watch my girls blossom and move closer to me as I feel better... maybe we're all remembering who I was BEFORE... before the unthinkable happened, and things changed.... I changed, my brain changed, my biochemistry and nervous system changed..... in concrete ways I never would have believed if they didn't happen TO me.  To feel so strong, then get torn down, brick by brick, unable to recover all the way between battles..... you don't know what that is,  what it will feel like until you're in it.  I wonder what it did to the In Laws.  As MIL sent 3 BD cards to oldest dd, who's birthday isn't for some months... and one of the cards said LATE birthday.... MIL isn't doing very well.  She's very smart.  She should be able to figure out birthdays,  but she isn't. Maybe she can't.  Maybe she doesn't care to.   This is familiar.  Thinking about what;s in other people's heads, and spinning wheels over it.  It's scary, honestly.  MIL doesn't care how she appears... she's so out of her mind positive about her narrative.  Maybe that's what happens when everyone around you tells youi what you want to hear.... for whatever reason.  It's a sort of group psychosis, IME. 

I'll tell you this.... when the Judge ruled on my attorney fees, paid by the ILs, no one on their side showed up.  Nobody but their attorney.  No one witnessed what the judge said, and they didn't want to know that truth.  These letters,  from MIL, tell me their break with reality goes on, without a hiccup.... and my children are invited to partake.   

And I watch my girls figure things out.... share their experiences of problem solving in relationship, and high stress job...... I KNOW they're learning.   I watch them apply what they've learned.   I watch them take THAT moment..... how did Victor Frankl say it...

" Between stimulus and response, there is a space.  In that space is our power to choose our response.  In our response lies our growth and our freedom."

I wouldn't have had any idea what that meant... this time last year.  Not at all.  I'm sure I would have felt some amount of defensiveness and frustration.  I would have wondered where the key to understanding that WAS. 

But watching my girls.... reminds me of another quote from Frankl....


"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."

And one more........

"When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves."


I don't know how to teach that.  Growth is painful.  Humans avoid pain, sometimes at all costs.   It's difficult, dirty work,  IME. Really gritty stuff.  I don't know how to explain it so my children will understand and internalize it... to FEEL it's truth, every day if possible, in their lives.

I no longer fear the In Laws harming the girls.  That's a blessing... such a relief, but the girls have enough facts to understand now.  No more protecting them.  It was time to give them enough information to make up their own minds, and they have. 

Talking about it isn't very helpful, I find.  It shuts down conversations and communication, IME.

There's modeling it, and releasing expectation. 

That's all there is.

Lighter




___________________________________________________________________________
I turned my ankle painfully this morning... taking out the trash, so I've been reading and journaling as I ice, elevate and eat anti inflammatories.  I liked these two things....




Pinnacles Of Possibility
CAPRICORN HOROSCOPE
AUGUST 20, 2020

You may find yourself wondering today whether you will ever come close to enlightenment or ascension. If you doubt your growth potential, you may adjust your goals accordingly so that you only reach for those aims you know you are capable of achieving easily. However, it is likely that you are already well on your way toward the next stage of your development, even if you do not acknowledge your achievements. Consider that you may be able to speed your progress by striving for weightier, more challenging goals. Should you feel a need to alter the course you have walked up until today, try to look for ways to integrate your most ambitious desires into your life plan.

Our chances of accomplishing our goals increase exponentially when we choose to aim high. Often, the limitations that keep us from fulfilling our full potential are products of a worldview fraught with borders that block our progress. When we believe, however, that we are capable of breaching these boundaries in order to accomplish great feats of strength, intelligence, or endurance, we are more apt to take whatever steps are necessary to realize our dreams. We may never reach the pinnacle of success that we have pictured so vividly in our minds, but we can rest assured that we will come closer to it than we might otherwise have because we regarded it as one possible outcome of our endeavors. Your principles will inspire you to aim high today, whatever the nature of the goals you have chosen to pursue.
   PRINT          SAVE          DISCUSS   
DailyOM Course Spotlight


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Protect Yourself from Control Dramas
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At 4:44 today, I opened this link...
https://medium.com/accelerated-intelligence/why-successful-people-spend-10-hours-a-week-on-compound-time-79d64d8132a8

I believe THIS is true for me.  Time spent, outside necessary business, crisis management, WORRYING over things I can't change..... is time I'll reap benefits from down the road.  Time spent learning how to integrate my brain, calm my biochemistry, expand my window of resilience and rest in awareness, consistently, will be a priceless investment in myself, for my future, and that of my family.

It's been a game changer for me.  I'm excited to think about what it means down the road.  Excitement comes and goes, but I trust it.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on August 21, 2020, 03:07:31 AM
There is a shift when you realise you don't have to protect the kids anymore, isn't there?  So nice to see them grow into adults and do their own thing, figure out their own problems, be their own people.  And yep, abusers, in general, I think, create a narrative and stick to it, no matter what.  Evidence is ignored, self awareness non existent, willingness to just accept difference.  It's not there.  They live in their own disparate reality trying to pull people in and it's horrible.  I do wonder sometimes if it's how they react to the other person exposing them?  I don't know the right way to say it, but my mum didn't start her stuff with me until after I spoke out about the sexual abuse from my step-dad.  Was that similar with your inlaws, Lighter, that they came at you because you revealed the abuse at home?  I wonder if that threat to them of damaging their story is the scariest thing for them to imagine.  Maybe their story protects them from what they went through and people unpicking it might mean their own abuse experiences gets out.  I don't know.  Humans are complicated.  I do think my mum's narrative protects her from truth and that me stepping outside of that circle was a big threat to her maybe having to deal with her own demons.  Maybe she was just too scared to do that.  I don't know.

It did strike me when you talked about meditation that I think that 'going inside' yourself stuff is just too much at times.  I know sometimes when I do yoga I get flashbacks to being raped.  Usually I have to stop immediately, and then I tend not to do it for a long while.  Sometimes I think the same happens with meditation, you just get too close to what's in there and you can't always cope with that.  Maybe there was still too much in there ten years ago and another part of you knew not to go poking around in there?  Maybe it's safer for you now because of all the therapy and work you've done.  I think it is.  I'm glad things are safer for you now, Lighter xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on August 21, 2020, 10:01:05 AM
Well, I'm not Lighter...

but I will say Tupp, that I think you're on to something real; at least I've seen the same thing in my own family about "keeping silent".

And as for the flashbacks - that kind of thing stopped being a roadblock for me when I finally unpacked all of that and accepted it as "what happened" and that I did the best I could under the circumstances and no nothing about it was "right". But it is how life happens sometimes, no matter HOW WRONG it is. It can't be undone now; and while the injustice of it still makes me angry enough to chew nails... I just can't let it get in the way of NOW; who I am, how I choose to be and what I do; how I behave.

I simply recognize what triggered the memory - if anything - and say "oh, that again; OK" and move on.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 21, 2020, 04:30:29 PM
My experience with PDs is they feel obligated to destroy anyone who exposes them, in any way they can manage, and they lose their minds when it happens.  Not pretty.  Usually scary, with the kids getting used as cannon fodder.

I can't say that's the exact case with my In Laws.... it wasn't just that.   More complicated and creepy, IMO.   Think crime syndicate with a bruised eye over the lawsuit.... their golden child looking foolish for having to pay a fair settlement in a divorce... they, particularly my MIL, couldn't abide that.  SO much crazier, now that I think about it.   

((Tupp)), it sucks you have flashbacks while doing yoga.  I hope you put that on the list, and deal with it in T.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on August 22, 2020, 07:28:37 AM
My experience with PDs is they feel obligated to destroy anyone who exposes them, in any way they can manage, and they lose their minds when it happens.  Not pretty.  Usually scary, with the kids getting used as cannon fodder.

I can't say that's the exact case with my In Laws.... it wasn't just that.   More complicated and creepy, IMO.   Think crime syndicate with a bruised eye over the lawsuit.... their golden child looking foolish for having to pay a fair settlement in a divorce... they, particularly my MIL, couldn't abide that.  SO much crazier, now that I think about it.   

((Tupp)), it sucks you have flashbacks while doing yoga.  I hope you put that on the list, and deal with it in T.

Lighter

They sound horrible, Lighter, I'm glad you got away.  Let's hope they stay living in their crazy imaginary world and keep away from yours.  I hope your ankle  feels better soon as well, not easy keeping the weight off your feet! xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 22, 2020, 12:32:05 PM
The ILs got away with tormenting us through the legal system for years. The heinous fuckery began in 2006.... I guess it stopped in 2014... the year my mother died.  That's when the Judge ordered them to pay 80K or so of my legal fees, on top of what they paid to their own little monster attorney. Had to sting quite badly, IMO.

  It was the pivotal point where losing cases, for them, wasn't fun IF they couldn't starve us out while doing it.  It had always been worth it, up to that point, to lose... and they lost every single case, over and over, and appealed and asked for reconsideration, on and on... "Bites at the apple" as the attorneys would say.  Every case was like fighting 2 or 3 cases.  I've lost count, frankly.  I couldn't even guess how many cases there were.  I feel as though I've been educated in heinous criminal fuckery, performed through the court system. 

It happened exactly like I said it would, btw. That the HF would stop when the PDs had to start paying my legal fees.   My attorneys all said it would never happen, but it did. Yup yup yup.

The PDs are still looking our way.... I know they are.
MIL sends her cards. 
FIL sends the government to our land to make false accusations about whatever he complains about....  But that's OK. 
It can't last forever.   

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 22, 2020, 12:37:35 PM
Therapist gave me this link... I really like the SOUNDS TRUE website, in general,  but here's a link on free trauma skills workshop.

https://product.soundstrue.com/trauma-skills-summit/register/
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on August 22, 2020, 12:44:09 PM
Ooh Lighter, it sends chills down my spine reading that.  It's a form of torture, isn't it, and so telling that they only stopped doing it when they realised they couldn't bankrupt you.  And then to continue in whichever pathetic way they can - brrrr.  Makes me shiver.  Not least because  of the lack of respect it shows for your girls.  Whatever else went on, you were their mum, they were their grandparents.  Any normal person would want you to be able to parent well, for their sake.  But they do all that hoping to break you.  What scum.  And so wrong that the legal system can be used to harass people like that.  Is it partly because they had enough money to keep throwing at lawyers?  It's amazing what money can buy people.  There will be sighs of relief all round once they are finally no more xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 23, 2020, 09:34:52 PM
 Yes, Tupp.  The ILs have unlimited resources and access to crooked attorneys, with contacts in the good old boy club. 

It wasn't about lack of respect.  I'll post thought on that later.....I think I have to punch my way through a few rabbit holes and just get it out.

It just never seems like I get enough content INTO my therapeutic release of facts and happenings.

Of the truth.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on August 24, 2020, 05:55:19 AM
(((((((((((((((((((((Lighter)))))))))))))))))))))))))  I'm sorry, I don't mean to poke around in old wounds.  Please don't feel you need to start heading into rabbit holes that might disturb the lovely peace you've got going on at the moment.  I know (from our situation) that the multiple threads around each incident all have stories of their own so unraveling them is never an easy job and often means things get left unsaid.  It's messy stuff.  I don't mean to bring things up for you, sorry, I am loving reading your stories of all the work you're doing at home and the nice food and garden projects :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 25, 2020, 01:23:10 PM
It IS messy, Tupp.  Not anything to do with you, dear friend.  Just.....a mess.

I do want to put some of it down here.  I've written and erased many posts.  They aren't enough to finish what I want to say and leave here.

The upswing is...writing gives me perspective and new understanding, which is part of being done. 

I also have this new consistent component of compassion for people I find difficult to remain neutral over.

There's an entirely new aspect....a new narrative wrapped around the " story" I've always operated under.....facts and really uncomfortable truths.

One narrative, that of doubting, enabling, ignorant, denying,minimizing third party opinionated person.....is standing in front of me, asking to be tended to.  Asking to be transformed into whatever lesson I can find in it.

Lots going on.  Tons of energy for big projects in the house. When the boy shows up, I'll ask for help with harder projects.

And....moving through the house is calm, no whipping myself with old threats and fears....just....flow.

(((Tupp)))  Please don't apologize.  I never doubt your goodness....never doubt your intentions.  Not ever.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 26, 2020, 12:00:18 PM
   From The DailyOM - I'm really resonating with this right now.  It sounds like you are too, Tupp.
   



Creating a Beautiful Home

BY MADISYN TAYLOR
Our loving intentions can easily transform the space in which we live.

The homes we occupy are seldom ideal. A space that satisfies our basic needs may nonetheless leave us wanting where location, décor, or style are concerned. Yet every home has the potential to be beautiful. When we fill our homes with love, we transcend worldly factors such as market value and design. Our conscious, loving intentions can transform the spaces in which we live, dispelling any lingering unharmonious energy and replacing it with an ethereal beauty that is felt rather than seen. Our homes become spiritual dwellings that feel soulful and alive. Regardless of their outward appearances, they radiate love, making all who enter, including ourselves, feel instantly welcome.

Turning a space into the beautiful outward expression of your inner warmth is as easy as projecting love into it. When your intentions are sincere, you can infuse the walls of your home with your energy, your emotional sensitivity, and your generosity of spirit, turning it into a haven of affection, joy, laughter, and togetherness. It is up to you, whether you want your personal spaces to be peaceful and quiet or lively and inspiring. Begin by cultivating awareness within yourself. This will allow you to see your home as an integral part of your existence rather than somewhere you simply return to at the end of each day. Consider how you relate to each element of your space, and remind yourself that every room in your home can serve a purpose in your life and the lives of your loved ones. Finally, lovingly thank each room for providing for your needs. As you become more mindful of the manner in which your home contributes to your well-being, you will discover that, more and more, you want to love and be loved by it.

Appearance and other superficial qualities can be deceiving. An aesthetically beautiful home can prove unwelcoming. And a home that seems mundane in every characteristic can be as comforting and cozy as a beloved relative or friend. When you nurture and care for your home as if it were a loved one, it will absorb your tender intentions and project a love so touching you will soon come to feel a great affection for it.
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Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: bean2 on August 26, 2020, 08:24:16 PM
I tried breathing...and counting my breaths...and being mindful.  Letting my thoughts flit around and settle on whatever it was I was stewing over that moment.... My mindfulness state is about 30 seconds max :(

phew, that is a lot of work! 

Does anyone practice this daily?  I am struggling to form the habit and wonder if there are any tricks to getting started?

I also am thinking a lot about Pia Mellody's "negative control" and "resentment" as symptoms of codependence.  I can definetely see these traits in myself (and realize that after going through therapy I have decreased both tremendously).   But aren't these symptoms more prevalent in the Narcissistic rather than the Codependent?  Especially the Resentment, which manifests itself as Anger at the smallest slight.  One of the red flags to me has always been that an N shows you who they are when they so easily get angry, and hang onto resentment, and it is disproportinate to whatever you have said or done.  They will gaslight you with their anger, making you crazy (if you are codependent), such that you are months later stills scanning your memory for What exactly You did to Anger them.  Of course, nothing.  ugh

I was also wondering about the rage that the N feels when you cut off their N supply. 

Moving on from N abuse seems almost difficult if not impossible for a Codependent.  Just my random thoughts after several months of being cutoff from my N stepdaughter...

bean
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on August 27, 2020, 08:45:26 AM
Hmmmmm. Bean, interesting question.

I think what the N experiences isn't resentment - because they are convinced they're all powerful. While the co-dependent does experience resentment, and it builds up to explosion over petty things - just because of soft boundaries, refusing to say "no" sooner, and some learned helplessness/powerlessness.

Don't forget - an N will set up a doublebind so you're damned if you do; damned if you don't - and it discourages many people from feeling it's possible to even TRY to change things in the relationship or break the cycle. So resentment builds.

Yeah, N's get angry when they're ignored, dismissed out of hand, or laughed at. That's mortal sin in the N-system/worldview. (When they themselves are considered the only world that matters... LOL.) An N will pay lip service to the idea that there is a world outside of themselves, and play the intellectual social games of pretending to care - but at the root - they are the only thing that matters.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: bean2 on August 27, 2020, 04:33:13 PM
sKePTiKal,
Thanks for the response.

Ya...I was thinking about the resentment my N stepdaughter felt last Thanksgiving.  First, she wanted no one to be invited except her and her sister, my husband and I (and their 4 young kids).  My parents, my uncle and his girlfriend, my husband's nephew, wife and his kids - not invited.

So the stepdaughters showed up 4 hours apart.  The codependent one an hour early, the N one three hours late, as usual.  When the N stepdaughter got to our house, the conversation immediately changed to her biological mother (my husband's ex) and how horrible she is.

The anger and resentment was so strong.   But, you're right, that is more petty crap, when you just talk bad about everyone who is not in the room at the time. 

She also cried before her baby shower (it was after Thanksgiving) because her biological mother called and cancelled at the last minute.  The bio mom rarely comes to any events, and no one was expecting her to show up (except my N stepdaughter).  Again, the hurt and anger about being ashamed one's own mother did not show up to her daughter's shower...  Her and her sister proceeded to call everyone a "bitch" and I'm sure I was included in that too, behind my back of course.

My stepdaughters are always taking the crap with their own mom out on me, it seems.  I really need to stop being their punching bag.  How do you say to someone "stop talking crap about me behind my back?!"  or do you just say nothing, walk away, find other kids to befriend, and hope they have a nice life?

bean
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on August 27, 2020, 05:02:17 PM
Well... I was speaking generally. Your situation sounds a lot more complex than that... but then real life relationships are like that. It would take awhile to get up to speed, it sounds like.

But, for you... I say, with no expertise just experience... that if I were you, I'd decide to let them go do what they do and try to stay in a calm peaceful place about it all. It's certainly not your job to raise them; they sound old enough it's a bit too late for that. And as far as including them in family events... well, you know what they're likely to bring so why feel obligated? That's probably gonna require a long talk with Dad about it though... and compromises.

Does he back you up? Stand up for you when they're being obnoxious drama queens?
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: bean2 on August 27, 2020, 07:19:26 PM
oh yes, thank goodness my husband and I are on the same page.  He knows something is terribly wrong with his N daughter.  He is slowly coming to realize we are both co-dependent too!  I really love my husband, he has never thought of this stuff before he met me and is very open minded to it all.  I think I am more upset than him.

Just steams me, because I want to work on myself (and my codependency) but I end up fixating on the N.  Or worrying about the other co-dependent stepdaughter. 

Letting go is really difficult.

Thanks for listening

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 28, 2020, 03:05:12 AM
I tried breathing...and counting my breaths...and being mindful.  Letting my thoughts flit around and settle on whatever it was I was stewing over that moment.... My mindfulness state is about 30 seconds max :(
Learning to sit and focus on breathing isn't something we turn on and off, like a switch.  We practice it.
 Monks, who've practiced for 30 and 40 years say they're still practicing and when they master it, they'll learn something else.  They never master it.  It's imperfect practice, and is supposed to be.  That's where we NOTICE what's going on inside.... and learn to notice without judging. We lose focus, notice, then go back to focusing on breath again.  We treat ourselves like we'd treat any small child.  With compassion and patience.


Thich Nhat Hanh is an author and shares simple mindful practices that help us learn HOW to focus,  IME. , The Practice of Mindfulness is a book my T loaned to me when I first started learning to breathe and focus on mindfulness.  There are different kinds of practice and some are more helpful than others,  bean.  You'll find you have preferences too.  It's different for everyone.  There are many books he's written... you might find a couple on Amazon that speak to you.  It helps quiet one down, and focus on specific things to train the mind, which becomes less difficult, then familiar then one day you notice yourself sort of huffing, without thinking about it, and that's when your body understands and responds to stress automatically.... with breathing.  We only practice...  and it's never perfect. 

I had the same difficult with martial arts...... berating muself for not doing something perfect the first or 50th time... I was just wasting energy I COULD have used to work on what I wanted to learn,  kwim?   It DOES get easier, bean.. with practice.  However imperfect, it builds on itself, in ways we can't understand until doors begin opening.  That might not make sense, but it's something everyone experiences differently, so it's not helpful to say it MUST happen like this or that, IME.  It's just trying,  doing your best, and not judging yourself, IME.
 
  It's frustrating.... sort of like looking at one of those pictures you can SEE only when the eye focuses a certain way.  I went through times of anger, even..... more than frustrating.  I don't think I could have stuck with it IF I didn't have a really great T doing her own work.... meaning she;s dropped her ego and is available to me in a way that's new and refreshing in Therapists... for ME. 

In my case, and maybe many people's, the discomfort of learning something new has to be outweighed by the disomfort of remaining mired in suffering, which is where I was at.

Honestly, being a strong person, capable of gutting one's way through crisis, suffering through a life filled with shots of adrenaline and reactivity..... slows one down in the process.   If one hit rock bottom more quickly,  it's likely one would be open to new coping strategies sooner, rather than later, IME.  I think our schools should teach mindfulness, meditation, acceptance, releasing outcome, and SEEING the little child in everyone....
right before teaching healthy boundaries, enforcing them and following through with consequences.  Accepting something, that can't change,  is different than being OK with something or giving permission for it to have happened or to happen again. 

Acceptance is the emotional act of no longer STRIVING against the tide and stream.  It's the act of getting out of the stream and walking with the wind....  it frees up energy to focus on what CAN DO.  It frees energy up to be responsive, and less reactive.  It gives us moments between stimulus and action.... so there's time to consider and select a particular response. 

It's  an escape from circular thinking and reactivity.  It's gaining distance and SEEING the entire field.  It allows us the time to see more possible responses and discern the best possible choice,  Ime. 
Many people worry worry worry as their primary coping strategy without understanding there are other ways to cope.

DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN, to impact a situation positively....  THEN putting the story ON THE SHELF..... going back to being present in the moment... doing things that bring us joy INSTEAD of worrying... is another coping strategy available to us.   And it's better, IME. 
...
Being mindful FELT like it had many moving parts to me.  And I couldn't hold them all in focus at the same time... for quite some time.  I still can't, truth be told. They just get more familiar, and habit turns into new default settings in our brain's wiring.  Not quick, but it's a process open to all of us if we keep trying, IME.

Dropping all judgment, about everyone and everything... just getting very curious about what comes next.... and leaning into finding out what that is...
extending massive self-compassion to ourselves... consistently as we can......
getting very very curious about what's going on in our internal worlds....
remembering, when we judge others.... we do this bc we're also judging ourselves.

It gets easier as we practice imperfectly, then practice some more, IME. 
 



We learn to discern our own inner wisdom from the voices installed by other people... and we become familiar with them.... work on making peace with them.... EMDR helps process old traumas stuck in our brains.  If we can just reduce the stress in our brain, our brain will process troubling emotions in milliseconds, bc that's what our brains do efficiently, daily..... and they will do it with the old trauma when we give it a chance.

Back to breathing and mindfulness....

Non judfmental curiosity..... resting in awareness...... these words take on more meaning as we practice, IME.   Only words, b ut then we make connections and build on them.  Until one begins to practice and read and notice things come up.  And those things don't kill us or destroy us.... they just show us more things and so on, until we get used to embracing truths and causes of our conditions so we can make new choices and changes to patterns that no longer serve.     
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Does anyone practice this daily? I am struggling to form the habit and wonder if there are any tricks to getting started?  My therapist practices daily. She does yoga.  Goes to retreats and participates in worldwide conferences over the computer..... and her experience..... because her work helps her to drop all ego when dealing with clients... accept where we are, validate us, teach us to do better.... feel better....
to suffer less. 

THAT was why I was in the T's office.  I was SO ready to suffer less, Bean.  Just..... less.  When that happened it was a revelation.  My T wondered if I didn't want more than simply "feeling better".  Honeslty, I would have been happy with that small gain, bc it felt so LARGE to me.  I was patient.... I kept my appointments, usually with frantic bits of trying to meditate right before the next appointment, but in her office... she focused me very keenly on what I was learning and I leaned in with everything I had... even when I was unable to release frustration and anger and judgment and simple ACCEPT something I couldn't change.  I had a difficult time accepting that acceptance wasn't saying something was OK.  It was simply getting out of a strong headwind.... and working WITH the wind.  Acceptance is accepting I can't DO anything to change something, then turning toward something I enjoy or CAN change.  Giving my energy to something that will impact my life in a positive way, and lead to more of what I want... more joy... more fellowship..... more flow and less suffering.  These things I could agree with my T about. 

Learning how to get my nose off trauma pebbles..... that was more difficult.  We worked through the largest traumas, one by one, typically with EMDR... eye movement and changing stories in my brain... calming  my brain down so I had access to my WHOLE brain for logic, reason, creativity and problem solving skills instead of running around like a chicken with my head cut off in survival mode..... trying to solve problems I simply couldn't go back and solve in the past,  bc the past is gone forever.  T helped me find a way to move those traumas INTO my processing center, integrate my brain so I could SEE the problems/trauma with all my abilities at hand, SOLVE and move that trauma INTO historic files, in my brain, so I wasn't reacting to the same things over and over and over again.  There was just quiet and peace and NOTHING when I thought about them. 



I don't meditate like I  could, and I refuse to say SHOULD, bc I feel I learn something every day and I pay very close attention to what I'm feeling and how I'm responding or reacting.  I can tell the difference now, even if I can't stop myself reacting, I AM AWARE, and I understand what's happening inside.  I understand what I can do to gain more distance, have more choices and be more responsive.   

I also am thinking a lot about Pia Mellody's "negative control" and "resentment" as symptoms of codependence.  I can definetely see these traits in myself (and realize that after going through therapy I have decreased both tremendously).  I found Pia Melody super helpful too, but that was just a starting point for understanding WHY I was codependent and how my reactivity, around someone, indicates I have work to do in that area... lessons to learn.... something I'm working out for myself.  Viewing that person or that problem as a lesson,  rather than a difficult person/problem I need to banish... has been helpful. But aren't these symptoms more prevalent in the Narcissistic rather than the Codependent?  Especially the Resentment, which manifests itself as Anger at the smallest slight.  N's have their own path and work to do.  It's not our work.  We focus on our work, and our path and we learn to see the wounded child in everyone... in ourselves.... the Ns.  Everyone has causes and conditions they're dealing with.   Ev3eryone is doing their level best, based on the causes and conditions they've experienced....  when they know better, they'll do better.  One of the red flags to me has always been that an N shows you who they are when they so easily get angry, and hang onto resentment, and it is disproportinate to whatever you have said or done. Absolutely, Bean. They will gaslight you with their anger, making you crazy (if you are codependent), such that you are months later stills scanning your memory for What exactly You did to Anger them.  Of course, nothing.  ugh

We do that until we learn to do better, and STOP scanning, worrying and wondering.  We learn to mind our own business.... what is ours to tend to,  in other words.  Primarily self care.  We forgive ourselves when we forget not to overstep or try to fix or help..... bc we're human and have a wounded child inside our hearts too.  Just like the N..... there's trauma and wounds in each of us. 

We may extend compassion to the N without allowing them to trample our boundaries.  It would be unwise to engage someone who's not honoring us or relating to us with reciprocity. 


I was also wondering about the rage that the N feels when you cut off their N supply. 

When you think about it, Bean..... what does an N rage remind you of?  It's not an adult response to frustration, is it?  It's more like a toddlers tantrum.... an immature response... a very harmful coping strategy that might have worked for them when they were children, but no longer serves in adulthood.  It's self defeating to rage and bully like a big toddler to gain some illusion of having control. 

It reminds me of the saying.... one person can't make two people happy, but one person can make two people miserable.  We can accept an N is broken, unable to do better, and is making sad choices based on their causes and condiitions.  N's have trauma too.  They're less resilient... they suffer a lot, bean.  It doesn't make the harm they do OK.  It doesn't.  It doesn't mean we allow further harm.  It just means we accept the N is suffering bc of causes and conditions... the same as we suffer, and we learn to see that in everyone.  To have compassion.  To be patient, but also to tend to ourselves, self care, and good boundaries.   

It feels odd to stop doing the things I;ve associated with who I've always been.. in the past, IME.  Just today it struck me... I'm not DOING this codependent thing anymore.... SHOULD I FEEL GUILTY?  No.  DO I need to go back and do it some more?  No.  Can I turn back to what I was doing, and enjy that thing again?  Yes, and that's what I did.  As I do it more and more, it gets easier,  more familiar, I choose it more often, and eventually it will be my brain's new default setting.  I won't have to fight for the right choices so hard. 

But then, there will be new lessons and new COWs,(Crisis Of The Week) and that's just life.  I can accept it,  or I can fight and rail against it and let it control me.  I'm trying to calm my brain down, with breathing and mindfulness,  so I have every option available to me..... so I have a few moments to consider my choices.... so I don't repeat old self defeating patterns.   


Moving on from N abuse seems almost difficult if not impossible for a Codependent.  Just my random thoughts after several months of being cutoff from my N stepdaughter...
For me, understanding what's going on INSIDE my brain..... why I repeat mistakes or habits that aren;t serving me..... understanding WHY sometimes I can't STOP worrying about what might happen..... catastrophizing... or worse... going over past events I can't change..... THESE things happen when my biochemistry is hijacked by my amygdala/fight or flight/reptilian brain, and I can't think my way OUT of that mode, no matter how hard I try.  In fact, thinking makes it worse, IME. 

When I learned my brain was ringing alarm bells, LIKE A FRIGGIN TIGER WAS CHASING ME.... I understood WHY breathing HELPED.  Breathing, calmly..... filling my lungs from the bottom to the top... like filling a vase... then releasing it slowly.... while FOCUSING ON EACH breath.....
is something one cannot DO if a tiger is giving chase. 

Breathing is a tool.  Think of it as a pair of wire cutters, sneaking up, beneath the alarm bells, and cutting those wires.  If we breathe calmly, our bodies understand that as NOT BEING IN DANGER! 

We take back control of our biochemistry, and breaking that down a bit further.... what that means is we engage the part of our nervous system responsible for calming down the fight or flight mode. 

Our parasympathetic nervous system (PNS) shuts OFF fight or flight survival mode, and we cultivate tools to do that.  Because fight or flight mode shuts down access to our frontal lobe.... the part responsible for reason, logic, creativity and problem solving.... is it any wonder we can't fight or think our way OUT of upsetting, circular patterns creating suffering and frustration for ourselves?

I don't know about you, bean, but I believe we all deserve less suffering. Everyone on this board is a kind soul.  A well intentioned soul. 

Whatever you find in therapy, I hope it's more joy, less worry, more responsiveness and unconditional acceptance of what can't be changed.

Victor Fankl said....
"Live as though you're living a second time, and as though you acted wrontly the first time."
 

This, for me, is important today, bc we're all working out lessons we're meant to learn right now.  We're all here experiencing hardships in order to understand compassion... patience.... a deep abiding understanding that we're all dealing with trauma and our wounded inner child.  There can be no compassion without cruelty.  No light without dark.

We all are products of our causes and conditions. 

Your sd would do better if she knew how to do better.  She doesn't lash out in self defeating ways, bc it brings her joy.  She does this bc she's suffering, and she's terrified of what's behind it.  She's on her own path.   You can't fix her.  Her father can't fix her.  She has to do her own work. 

Learning to SEE ourselves in all suffering beings connects us.  We don't have to allow abuse, and accepting that abuse happened isn't the same as saying it was OK, bc it wasn't and it never will be. 

I found a new poem today, and I'll put it here.
Poem: Please Call Me By My True Names
By Thich Nhat Hanh

Don’t say that I will depart tomorrow— even today I am still arriving.

Look deeply: every second I am arriving to be a bud on a Spring branch, to be a tiny bird, with still-fragile wings, learning to sing in my new nest, to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower, to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry, to fear and to hope. The rhythm of my heart is the birth and death of all that is alive.

I am a mayfly metamorphosing on the surface of the river. And I am the bird that swoops down to swallow the mayfly.

I am a frog swimming happily in the clear water of a pond. And I am the grass-snake that silently feeds itself on the frog.

I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones, my legs as thin as bamboo sticks. And I am the arms merchant, selling deadly weapons to Uganda.

I am the twelve-year-old girl, refugee on a small boat, who throws herself into the ocean after being raped by a sea pirate.

And I am also the pirate, my heart not yet capable of seeing and loving.

I am a member of the politburo, with plenty of power in my hands. And I am the man who has to pay his “debt of blood” to my people dying slowly in a forced-labor camp.

My joy is like Spring, so warm it makes flowers bloom all over the Earth. My pain is like a river of tears, so vast it fills the four oceans.

Please call me by my true names, so I can hear all my cries and laughter at once, so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

Please call me by my true names, so I can wake up and the door of my heart could be left open, the door of compassion.



One more thing, and I know I've posted on and on here...
but one more thing.....
today I really felt what it's like to drop all ego and SEE the suffering of someone who's done great harm to me.  To hold a space for them... filled with compassion.... and really SEE how their suffering has shaped them.   It didn't make what they did to me OK.  I simply could see..... causes and conditions shaped that person.  It wasn't a choice, in other words.  That person was acted upon and that innocent little child, they were, did what it needed to do to survive.   And the suffering... I recognize it in myself.  I recognize it in that person.  It connects us.   

The truth is, I've learned so much from hardest of times.  When I calm myself down....
get my nose off the pebble or problem I'm struggling with.....
I see greater possibility, release expectation and accept what comes at me..... do what I can, then turn back to what brings me joy in THIS moment..... that's the difference between joy and suffering for me. 

THAT's my choice to focus on what I CAN do, and not what is happening TO me, or has happened to me.

Sorry it took so long to respond, bean.  I have company and lots going on. 
Lighter
 

bean
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on August 28, 2020, 03:06:22 AM
I'm going to re watch The Razor's Edge soon.  The original version from 1946 with Tyrone Power and Gene Tierney. 

I remember watching it when i was a teenager, and it was impactful.  NOW I SEE, even if I have more to learn.   Dropping ego.... releasing attachment to things.  Yup yup yup.

The Razor's Edge
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For other uses, see The Razor's Edge (disambiguation).
The Razor's Edge
The Razor's Edge 1st ed.jpg
First edition
Author   W. Somerset Maugham
Country   United States
Language   English
Publisher   Doubleday, Doran
Publication date   1944
Media type   Print (hardback & paperback)
Pages   314 (Paperback)
ISBN   1-4000-3420-5
OCLC   53054407
Dewey Decimal   813.54
The Razor's Edge is a novel by W. Somerset Maugham. The book was first published in 1944. It tells the story of Larry Darrell, an American pilot traumatized by his experiences in World War I, who sets off in search of some transcendent meaning in his life. The story begins through the eyes of Larry's friends and acquaintances as they witness his personality change after the War. His rejection of conventional life and search for meaningful experience allows him to thrive while the more materialistic characters suffer reversals of fortune. The book was twice adapted into film, first in 1946 starring Tyrone Power and Gene Tierney, and Herbert Marshall as Maugham and Anne Baxter as Sophie, and then a 1984 adaptation starring Bill Murray.

The novel's title comes from a translation of a verse in the Katha Upanishad, paraphrased in the book's epigraph as: "The sharp edge of a razor is difficult to pass over; thus the wise say the path to Salvation is hard."[1][2]


Contents
1   Plot
2   Influences and critical reception
3   References
4   External links
Plot
Maugham begins by characterizing his story as not really a novel but a thinly veiled true account. He includes himself as a minor character, a writer who drifts in and out of the lives of the major players. Larry Darrell's lifestyle is contrasted throughout the book with that of his fiancée's uncle Elliott Templeton, an American expatriate living in Paris and an unrepentantly shallow yet generous snob. For example, while Templeton's Catholicism embraces the hierarchical trappings of the church, Larry's proclivities tend towards the 13th-century Flemish mystic and saint John of Ruysbroeck.

Wounded and traumatized by the death of a comrade in the War, Larry returns to Chicago, Illinois, and his fiancée Isabel Bradley, only to announce that he does not plan to seek paid employment and instead will "loaf" on his small inheritance. He wants to delay their marriage and refuses to take up a job as a stockbroker offered to him by Henry Maturin, the father of his friend Gray. Meanwhile, Sophie, Larry's childhood friend, settles into a happy marriage, only to later tragically lose her husband and baby in a car accident.

Larry moves to Paris and immerses himself in study and bohemian life. After two years of this "loafing," Isabel visits and Larry asks her to join his life of wandering and searching, living in Paris and traveling with little money. She cannot accept his vision of life and breaks their engagement to go back to Chicago. There she marries the millionaire Gray, who provides her a rich family life. Meanwhile, Larry begins a sojourn through Europe, taking a job at a coal mine in Lens, France, where he befriends a former Polish army officer named Kosti. Kosti's influence encourages Larry to look toward things spiritual for his answers rather than in books. Larry and Kosti leave the coal mine and travel together for a time before parting ways. Larry then meets a Benedictine monk named Father Ensheim in Bonn, Germany while Father Ensheim is on leave from his monastery doing academic research. After spending several months with the Benedictines and being unable to reconcile their conception of God with his own, Larry takes a job on an ocean liner and finds himself in Bombay.

Larry has significant spiritual adventures in India and comes back to Paris. What he actually found in India and what he finally concluded are held back from the reader for a considerable time until, in a scene late in the book, Maugham discusses India and spirituality with Larry in a café long into the evening. He starts off the chapter by saying "I feel it right to warn the reader that he can very well skip this chapter without losing the thread of the story as I have to tell, since for most part it is nothing more than the account of a conversation that I had with Larry. However, I should add that except for this conversation, I would perhaps not have thought it worthwhile to write this book." Maugham then initiates the reader to Advaita philosophy and reveals how, through deep meditation and contact with Bhagawan Ramana Maharshi, cleverly disguised as Sri Ganesha in the novel, Larry goes on to realise God through the experience of samadhi—thus becoming a saint—and in the process gains liberation from the cycle of human suffering, birth and death that the rest of the earthly mortals are subject to.

The 1929 stock market crash has ruined Gray, and he and Isabel are invited to live in her uncle Elliott Templeton's grand Parisian house. Gray is often incapacitated with agonising migraines due to a general nervous collapse. Larry is able to help him using an Indian form of hypnotic suggestion. Sophie has also drifted to the French capital, where her friends find her reduced to alcohol, opium, and promiscuity – empty and dangerous liaisons that seem to help her to bury her pain. Larry first sets out to save her and then decides to marry her, a plan that displeases Isabel, who is still in love with him.

Isabel tempts Sophie back into alcoholism with a bottle of Żubrówka, and she disappears from Paris. Maugham deduces this after seeing Sophie in Toulon, where she has returned to smoking opium and promiscuity. He is drawn back into the tale when police interrogate him after Sophie has been found murdered with an inscribed book from him in her room, along with volumes by Baudelaire and Rimbaud.

Meanwhile, in Antibes, Elliott Templeton is on his deathbed. Despite the fact that he has throughout his life compulsively sought out aristocratic society, none of his titled friends come to see him, which makes him alternately morose and irate. But his outlook on death is somewhat positive: "I have always moved in the best society in Europe, and I have no doubt that I shall move in the best society in heaven."

Isabel inherits his fortune, but genuinely grieves for her uncle. Maugham confronts her about Sophie, having figured out Isabel's role in Sophie's downfall. Isabel's only punishment will be that she will never get Larry, who has decided to return to America and live as a common working man. He is uninterested in the rich and glamorous world that Isabel will move within. Maugham ends his narrative by suggesting that all the characters got what they wanted in the end: "Elliott social eminence; Isabel an assured position...Sophie death; and Larry happiness."

Influences and critical reception

1946 hardcover edition promoting the first film adaptation
Maugham, like Hermann Hesse, anticipated a fresh embrace of Eastern culture by Americans and Europeans almost a decade before the Beats were to popularise it. (Americans had explored Eastern philosophy before these authors, in the 19th century through the Transcendentalists, Theosophists, the visit of Vivekananda in 1893, and then Yogananda's move to the U.S. in 1920.) Maugham visited Sri Ramana Ashram, where he had a direct interaction with Ramana Maharshi in Tamil Nadu, India in 1938.[3][4] Maugham's suggestion that he "invented nothing" was a source of annoyance for Christopher Isherwood, who helped him translate a verse 1.3.14 from the Katha Upanishads for the novel's epigraph – उत्तिष्ठ जाग्रत प्राप्य वरान्निबोधत | क्षुरस्य धारा निशिता दुरत्यया दुर्गं पथस्तत्कवयो वदन्ति || (uttiṣṭha jāgrata prāpya varān nibodhata| kṣurasya dhārā niśitā duratyayā durga pathas tat kavayo vadanti|| ) – which means "Rise, wake up, seek the wise and realize. The path is difficult to cross like the sharpened edge of the razor (knife), so say the wise."

Many thought Isherwood, who had built his own literary reputation by then and was studying Indian philosophy, was the basis for the book's hero.[5] Isherwood went so far as to write Time denying this speculation.[6] It has been suggested that a man named Guy Hague was an important influence in the character of Darrell, although it now appears that he was not at Ramanasramam when Maugham visited.[7] The English poet and translator Lewis Thompson is thought to be a more likely candidate.[8] David Haberman has pointed out that Ronald Nixon, an Englishman who took monastic vows and became known as Krishna Prem, served as a fighter pilot in the First World War and experienced a crisis of meaninglessness that was "strikingly similar" to that experienced by Larry.[9]

Another distinct possibility for influence is raised by the anglicised American, British MP Chips Channon in his diaries.[10] During a trip to New York in August 1944, Channon wrote ″I saw much of Somerset Maugham, who never before was a friend. He has put me into a book, 'the Razor's Edge' and when I dined with him, I asked him why he had done it, and he explained, with some embarrassment, that he had split me into three characters, and then written a book about all three. So I am Elliott Templeton, Larry, himself the hero of the book, and another: however I am flattered, and the book is a masterpiece...″

References
 Katha Upanishad Archived 7 February 2009 at the Wayback Machine "1-III-14. Arise, awake, and learn by approaching the exalted ones, for that path is sharp as a razor's edge, impassable, and hard to go by, say the wise."
 Razors Edge: The Katha Upanishad by Nancy Cantwell. Timequotidian.com, 29 January 2010.
 Talk 550. 15 October 1938. Talks with Ramana Maharshi. Inner Directions Press. ISBN 978-1-878019-00-4
 "Eastern promise". Mint. 17 May 2008.
 'Fable of Beasts & Men'. Time (magazine). 5 November 1945.
 Isherwood's letter to Time is cited in Christopher Isherwood, My Guru and His Disciple, page 183.
 Godman, David (1988) Somerset Maugham and The Razor's Edge http://davidgodman.org
 Thompson, Lewis, and Lannoy, Richard (ed) (2011), Fathomless Heart: The Spiritual and Philosophical Reflections of an English Poet-Sage, p.1, North Atlantic Books
 Haberman, David L. (1 July 1993). "A cross‐cultural adventure: The transformation of Ronald Nixon". Religion. Routledge. 23 (3): 217–227. doi:10.1006/reli.1993.1020. ISSN 0048-721X. Haberman states that Nixon's "direct experiences with the death and destruction of warfare filled him with a sense of futility and meaninglessness (strikingly similar to the experience of Larry in Sommerset Maugham's The Razor's Edge)" (p. 283).
 sPress. ISBN 978-1-257-02549-7. Channon, Henry (1967). Rhodes James, Robert, ed. Chips: The Diaries of Sir Henry Channon. London: Weidenfeld and Nicolson. ISBN 978-1-85799-493-3.
External links
The Razor's Edge at Faded Page (Canada)
Life magazine article about Razor's Edge movie ("Movie of the Week: The Razor's Edge – Maugham book makes superb film", 18 Nov 1946, pp. 97–100).
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Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: bean2 on August 31, 2020, 10:47:33 PM
Thank you lighter.  I am feeling great joy for you and hope, because I know how hard this work is, and to drop the ego and see others' as just hurt people like us...it's truly why we're here (I think)

I kind of laughed when you said I would be huffing soon.  dang i hope so, I want to speed up that tiger chase, to get there ALREADY.  I guess that is a good sign that I'm impatient

My N mother visited yesterday, and I am so far from accepting her as a hurt person, who can't help herself.  And I want to be OK with her too, and sometimes it just feels like Sloowwww progress.

But I hear what You're saying to me.  It's very powerful.  thank you again, that was a wonderful long post, it made me feel like my struggle is real and that you listened and really saw my hurt, as you took all the time you did to respond.

bean
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on September 01, 2020, 12:39:08 AM
Bean:

Really desiring to feel better is a good start to productive huffing, IME; )

You're welcome, and I hope you have peace around sd situation soon. 
Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on September 01, 2020, 10:36:53 PM
Interesting... now you're getting to places I've already been decades ago. Explore away!
One caution however. Completely eradicating ego isn't healthy. Just remember that one thing, and you'll be safe exploring to your heart's content. Having a healthy ego is necessary for survival and the operative word is healthy.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on September 07, 2020, 12:01:12 PM
Did you explore mindfulness and dropping ego during T sessions years ago, or did you research and find it on your own, Amber?  Was it martial arts, or popular books you read?

I know my T has been saying things like....

"When thing like that come up... it's usually to do with the ego, etc."

She hasn't actually TAKEN me INTO DROPPING EGOsessions, but has been acting as a tour guide.... explaining things, instead of trying to fix them.  It's not like reducing anxiety or changing a traumatic event in my brain for keeps WORK.  THOSE are concrete activities.... EMDR..... breathing meditations.....but the dropping ego stuff is all me, flailing about, trying to SEE things through a new lense..... and it's a shift I can honestly say I'm surprised by. I think it HAS to happen that way, for me, for me to buy into it completely, kwim?

I never anticipated SEEING my In-Laws, at every stage of their lives, without any ego, on my part, coloring that view.  I'm curious about that shift in all things.  Last night the pug about shoved me out of oldest dd's bed.... it's a double, so there was no room for a wedged pug, using her mama to push off between us, and make more room for her not so little pug self. 
I went downstairs to my bed, and my sister's breathing machine was making all kinds of wet draining noise racket, the actual breathing part suctioned over4 her mouth, her nose loudly snoring, and I just took the hour to SEE what came up, and to SEE it without ego, as I could.   

It's like having a pair of magic goggles, isn't it?

Oh... I finally worried the machine was killing my sister, so picked up the piece sitting on her mouth and asked if it needed to be moved to her nose.  She popped it on her nose and went right back to sleep.  The snoring stopped but the machine just kept on making very loud moist noises.

When I woke up, there was silence, and sister said she emptied the machine at some point.... must have been after 4:30, bc I was sound asleep and didn't notice, which tells you how deeply I can sleep.  Such a blessing.

That's an amazing thing... to BE in bed, unable to sleep at 3:30  with many distractions around me and CHOOSE how I'll handle it.  Choosing to get curious, think about things sans ego...... and look forward to what's there..... then realize that took me INTO sleep..... is really cool, IME. 

At several points I sensed despair was an option.... when I couoldn't sleep.... and I bounced right over them. 

THIS is a good jumping off point for finishing the she shed and having a separate little room where I can escape or send guests to get some privacy.   I'm still a bit iffy on the BIG TREES looming around that little shed, but I see the pros very clearly.

I also want to say I have a crawl space under my house that stays icy in the summer and toasty in the winter.  I can stand up in  the first 1/4 of the space, then it slopes up, and I have to duck walk or crawl.  I've thought about digging it out, and adding some living space.  Honestly, I thought a bout putting a tent in last night and sleeping there, but for the creepy crawlies, which are kept at a minimum bc I never turn the lights off.

IF I had one little bedroom down there....... one privagte sleeping space finished out and bug free..... however that needed to look.... that would be a good thing, IMO. 

Any ideas how to do that, Amazons?
Lighter 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on September 07, 2020, 01:13:19 PM
25 years before T, I was the cliché "seeker of truth" type. I explored everything I could get my hands on or experience, as fully as I could... including psychology texts... in hopes that I could learn to frame my big QUESTIONS in a coherent enough way... so that just about anyone could answer: "well that's easy; x - y- z." I was decidely desperate in my search, too - and therefore, not terribly discerning along the way. So, I was easily convinced that if I simply immersed myself fully & faithfully in say, Pastafarianism... the knowledge I was seeking would be revealed. If I completely SUBMITTED and BELIEVED, it would be so; in time.

I'm still not sure WTH Pastafarians actually believe. LOL.

Anyway, one of the more organized "keepers of truth" convinced me that any self or inner-considering (versus other/outer considering) was like original sin and MUST be conquered, eliminated, let go - to find that higher truth. That ego stood in the way of enlightenment. At the time, I wasn't able to SEE that usually it's ego that is TRYING TO FIND enlightenment, to prop up it's self-image... because according to x, y, z... ego is always BAD; it's the "shadow self"; it's selfish and self-absorbed and self-centered. That is decidely FALSE, in the objective sense.

Since this is the co-dependence thread, you see how that belief system fostered all the things we're actually in the process of freeing ourselves from? It was actually the concept of a healthy ego, that finally was my breakthrough.

A healthy ego, won't easily enter enmeshment or co-dependence - because there IS an actual true (and good & healthy) self-interest or ego. As in the UNbalance of one person always giving; always doing; always emotionally available - and the other always taking, never emotionally available.... and sometimes even intending harm. The reciprocity and balance is what is healthy.

Most of my T work, was discovering that despite all the various conditioning/programming I'd been through... once I'd stripped all that away, my ego wasn't such a bad thing; it was pretty balanced - in it's essence. But I'd learned a lot of dysfunctional crap I had to strip off of it and then PRACTICE in real life, validating it for myself. There are still difficult, tangled up things to sort out about that... and like anyone learning something new, I flailed, overcompensated, missed things I should've paid attention to... and learned the hard way: by making mistakes and reflecting on what I could've done or chosen differently. For an outcome that satisfied my need for balance, stability and order... that still left room for spontaneity, uncertainty and unknowns - including risk. That work is still being refined.

All I'd been seeking all those previous years, truly was right inside my head. It was Twiggy's spirit - who'd been locked away and almost completely forgotten - coming back, along with her memories - that was my "missing piece" and made me whole in a way no relationship could ever fulfill. That's where my confidence had been all those years. Where my "can" had been locked up. And the understanding, that within the new, re-combined me and ego, was MY truth. Perhaps not everyone else's truth... but we have to start somewhere, don't we?

Might as well practice what we might attempt to preach or teach.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on September 08, 2020, 02:10:31 PM
This rings true for me, Amber:

Quote
A healthy ego, won't easily enter enmeshment or co-dependence - because there IS an actual true (and good & healthy) self-interest or ego. As in the UNbalance of one person always giving; always doing; always emotionally available - and the other always taking, never emotionally available.... and sometimes even intending harm. The reciprocity and balance is what is healthy.

Nboss was my greatest lesson in terms of the toxicity of elevating anyone to Master Teacher status: having the Special Secret to fulfillment, enlightenment, whatever. He craved enmeshed and dependent followers, and when anybody pushed back....slice 'n dice (in his case, very covertly). He had a post-PhD in manipulation.

I still have spurchul stuff to learn but like at my own church, intense independence of thought means a lot of the vocabulary just doesn't go down well for me. Nobody discusses the deep openness of agnosticism, but that's where I abide, and strongly so. I'm still connected there, and very gratefully, for friendships and community but not for turning over my psyche to anybody "spiritually expert." I am bored by most homilies but stay for the familiar good faces (over Zoom these days), music, and caring. When I do look for outside insight, it's mostly from people whose vibe is helpful not because they SAY they're helping, but because it FEELS like they are.

It's taken me a lifetime to figure that out. (I believe practicing setting boundaries peacefully is a good antidote to conditions of codependence or enmeshment...for me, such practice needs to be lifetime. Not automatic but always worth it, and less painful with use.)

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: cats paw on September 08, 2020, 04:37:27 PM
Amber,
 
 I was an innocent and fervent seeker as well. Though I stopped short of wearing a Pastafarian colander  :) 

 Totally agree with the idea of "healthy ego".

Cat
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on September 09, 2020, 10:16:36 AM
Been working on this, but it's difficult.

Do our dreads go through the holes or just kind of mat on top?

:)

I miss my younger hair. Thiiiiiick and .... well, thick.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: cats paw on September 11, 2020, 11:42:14 AM
Hops-

  Dunno.  I've never been to an ecumenical gathering with Rastas and Pastas.

  I miss my younger hair, too. I miss my younger physical everything. 


Lighter-

  The poem brought Celtic thoughts to my mind, I think something about Taliesen, maybe?  Nature, shapeshifting.

  I've not read nor seen The Razor's Edge. It sounds like it would have been a good pick for the book club I was in.  Have you ever read East of Eden? 

  So many things spark reminders of others.

cp
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: cats paw on September 13, 2020, 03:44:43 PM
 
  "Nothing is ever solved. Solving is an illusion. There are moments of spontaneous brightness, when the mind appears emancipated,
   but that it mere epiphany."

   Patti Smith
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on September 14, 2020, 09:01:54 AM
CP, I haven't read East Of Eden.

And yes....so many reminders.  I don't think there are many themes in this world.  Lots of similar stories with similar characters with similar motivations, IME. 

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on September 15, 2020, 01:55:36 PM
I notice the moments where self judgment and guilt used to slide in all the time.
I noticed it today, and..
It really felt like a big empty space today, waiting to be filled.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on September 15, 2020, 04:16:16 PM
Noooo, it's not waiting to be filled!

Unless with powerful seeds of new leafy self-love and care.
There are so many varieties, that inner space is rich and ready.

hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on September 15, 2020, 11:52:25 PM
Yes yes yes, Hops.

Filled with amazing things!

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on September 17, 2020, 05:35:31 AM
I notice the moments where self judgment and guilt used to slide in all the time.
I noticed it today, and..
It really felt like a big empty space today, waiting to be filled.

Lighter

I get feelings like that, Lighter, and at times it feels difficult to know what to fill it with?  I think possibly because the current situation is making 'normal' difficult to do so I can't do things I would usually want to do to fill the space.  I hope you're filling yours up with goodies :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on September 17, 2020, 11:14:13 AM
Time to experiment with filling space with new things!
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on September 17, 2020, 11:15:37 AM
Time to experiment with filling space with new things!

For me at the moment I'm mostly filling space with biscuits, Skep ;)  Lol x
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on September 19, 2020, 12:03:03 PM
Time to experiment with filling space with new things!

For me at the moment I'm mostly filling space with biscuits, Skep ;)  Lol x

Lol, Tupp. 
Us.
Too.

I'm also looking for deeper daily meditation practices....maybe outdoors in this amazingly cool and breezy fall weather.  More walking meditation.

The work you're doing....I'm in awe.  Are you adding EMDR to it?

Lighter 
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on September 19, 2020, 12:31:44 PM
Time to experiment with filling space with new things!

For me at the moment I'm mostly filling space with biscuits, Skep ;)  Lol x

Lol, Tupp. 
Us.
Too.

I'm also looking for deeper daily meditation practices....maybe outdoors in this amazingly cool and breezy fall weather.  More walking meditation.

The work you're doing....I'm in awe.  Are you adding EMDR to it?

Lighter

Walking meditation sounds nice, Lighter.  We are trying to walk most days; we tend only not to go out if it's very wet or very hot (more the former than the latter now).  I've been using the Sandra Rolus meditations on YouTube.  She describes herself as a trauma and sexual abuse healing facilitator and when I first heard her say that I did my usual eye roll and thought oh blimey, another 'guru' but I have to say I feel I've experienced some very deep shifts whilst doing her meditations so I'm thoroughly hooked right now.

No EMDR, I'm finding the lackdown/pandemic so useful just because it gives me time.  I can think about things for as long as I like and I'm not getting more stress added daily which often makes things I want to think about vanish because I have to deal with the immediate problem.  I'm really liking being able to structure my day as I see fit and have got into the habit of being busy morning and evening and lounging around in the afternoon.  That pattern suits me.  I'm reading more, writing more, watching all sorts of films and documentaries as well as planning and thinking.  Just having time to think is an absolute luxury, as is being able to meditate or do yoga if the thinking starts making me feel stressed.  I'm finding things are coming up and I can really work on them, instead of having to shove them to one side because we've got to be somewhere.  I do remember years ago saying to a therapist I felt like I'd do much better if I just went to a retreat for a year so I didn't have to think about anything other than getting better and it kind of feels like that's what we've got now?  Time to be at home and just focus on me.  I feel in a very fortuitous position right now and I've never felt like that before, quite the opposite!  Are you still seeing your T or did it have to go on hold with the pandemic situation? xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on September 19, 2020, 01:44:13 PM
Tupp, not only having time to think is wonderful... but then, there is being able to stretch out the to-do list to fill the extra time we have. For me, thinking about the way I want to do (some) things is just as important as trying to schedule things the most efficiently. New ideas, intuitions, feelings about relative position of the priority... all of that has time to be properly processed and decided on... without the artifical "time pressure".

Honestly, people often imply there is something "wrong" with me... because I've discovered the joy of going way slower about things than seems "normal" to others. I just shrug and tell 'em - I prefer to do things this way. I really don't feel obligated to "fit in" with societal norms anymore... or even close friend's/family "expectations". As long as I'm being authentically me - and pleasing my SELF, and enjoying that.... everyone else can take their perspective, opinion and "concern" and take a flying leap at a rolling donut.  :D  And I do like returning that favor to others. Do as you like, as the "spirit" moves you... and you'll be happier in the long run.

I don't want to be a cog in any machine; the universe and it's fated destiny is still subject to my free will and choice; and I always promised y'all that at some point (back then it was in the future) I was going to "wear purple"... now I think it'll be purple paisley on a black background... LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

My "life" is how I experience my "days"... the feelings, energy I have to expend and what I choose to expend it on, and the people I care for and about... and enjoying to the best of my ability and patience who they are. Without anyone trying to fit people into pigeonholes.

Pigeonholes are for pigeons.  :P
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on September 19, 2020, 02:34:50 PM
'Take a flying leap at a rolling donut' is my new favourite phrase, Skep :)  Lol.

Yes, sloooooow.  That is what I'm finding so helpful at the minute and I want to hang on to it as much as possible in whatever shape our new normal takes.  I am really enjoying choosing when I am productive and get stuff done and when I don't, and being able to be productive for a while and then just stop because I know I can finish it tomorrow.  It will adjust slightly as the days get shorter but those changes are gradual and I can adapt to that as we go along.  It's been a real eye opener to me to see how much of what we were doing before was more about other people's (or society's expectations) rather than what we really wanted to be doing.  I'm liking being able to do jobs in their entirety as well, instead of shoehorning a bit of gardening into the twenty minutes I have spare.  It's nice to go outside and know if I'm out there for three hours it's fine, and equally if I've had enough after thirty minutes I can leave it till another time.  I keep watching those homesteading/off grid type programmes and there's a lot that appeals to me (and a lot I think I might be too wimpy to cope with) but I definitely want life to be more organic and tuned in with the seasons, daylight hours and just less artificiality about it.  And yes to so much purple!  I love the meme that does the rounds on the internet every now and again of the lady in purple with feathers in her hair and it's captioned, "I don't want people to say, what a sweet old lady - I want them to say what the hell is she doing now?".  Can't think of anything better than that :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on September 19, 2020, 06:06:10 PM
There are ways to make the hard physical work of homesteading easier, Tupp. You don't have to always be the "mule" pulling a plow... there are even ways to minimize weeding, which I still enjoy immensely even if I do get tired; it's just the satisfaction of creating the visual "order" I like. I'll bet even your son would enjoy parts of that kind of work.

Sometimes, mother nature "wins" - and there isn't a decent way to cope and get a crop or have your herbs/flowers do really well. Sometimes it's too much rain; not enough; too hot... a host of other things. Wrapping my head around the real commitment it requires to maintain a garden space, permaculture bed, animals... I face a lot of resistance; excuses (It's too hot! I'll be sick and out of commission for days! waaaaah.... poor me) And so the work to overcome that, do things in a timely fashion, not find a handy excuse continues.

I think it's because at one time the bulk of the work - planting, tilling, weeding, harvesting & preserving - fell completely on my shoulders with very little assistance that part of me has held on to that resentment. And the voice I hear, when I am choosing to do/not do... is exactly the know-it-all, always "right" voice of Ex#2. He always dictated how it "should" be done - but he didn't DO IT. I did. And I wasn't permitted to say "no". I haven't quite exorcised that yet.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on September 20, 2020, 07:10:55 AM
There are ways to make the hard physical work of homesteading easier, Tupp. You don't have to always be the "mule" pulling a plow... there are even ways to minimize weeding, which I still enjoy immensely even if I do get tired; it's just the satisfaction of creating the visual "order" I like. I'll bet even your son would enjoy parts of that kind of work.

Sometimes, mother nature "wins" - and there isn't a decent way to cope and get a crop or have your herbs/flowers do really well. Sometimes it's too much rain; not enough; too hot... a host of other things. Wrapping my head around the real commitment it requires to maintain a garden space, permaculture bed, animals... I face a lot of resistance; excuses (It's too hot! I'll be sick and out of commission for days! waaaaah.... poor me) And so the work to overcome that, do things in a timely fashion, not find a handy excuse continues.

I think it's because at one time the bulk of the work - planting, tilling, weeding, harvesting & preserving - fell completely on my shoulders with very little assistance that part of me has held on to that resentment. And the voice I hear, when I am choosing to do/not do... is exactly the know-it-all, always "right" voice of Ex#2. He always dictated how it "should" be done - but he didn't DO IT. I did. And I wasn't permitted to say "no". I haven't quite exorcised that yet.

Those negative voices are so persistent, Skep!  It's weird how they settle in.  I do have the same struggles with doing things 'perfectly'.  When I was going to plant spuds, I kept putting it off because I had all these other things I thought I ought to be doing as well - and the result was nothing got done in the end.  I'm trying to get past that now and just do things and let them happen instead of micro planning but not actually planting anything.  I feel like I've got a foot in two different worlds at the minute and then it becomes easier to watch programmes about homesteads than it is to try to create one ;)  But we keep on keeping on, right? :)  And I still want moss as well, Lighter's descriptions of carpets of moss have whetted my appetite for that :) x
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on September 20, 2020, 08:53:34 AM
That's exactly what I go thru Tupp.

It's like I KNOW, that no matter how I do it, IF I do it, or what I can't control... it's never going to be "right" to that person who claims supreme power of approval. And it's going to be MY FAULT it's not right, looks "foolish", or doesn't produce. So, I resort to the passive-aggressive tactic I was taught so well. I don't do anything. I give up and in my head justify it... by telling myself, well of course! They're always right. (So turning it into a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy too.) And the only F YOU left to me.

Up until the point, that the criticism was inescapable and predictable... I had enjoyed planting and growing. It's like that simple joy was taken away from me; made so onerous a task with all the "right way", all the time from beginning to end; that I was being denied my whole nurturing self. Didn't help, that there was no reward - either way - ever; no matter what. And you know me. I'm endlessly curious and learning about things; and actually ENJOY learning new ways to do things. That died a starvation death in the process too.

Hol doesn't realize it, but the number of things she "took out of my hands" - "helping" - brought some of that back for me. Previously, I'd merely run away from it. I hadn't really conquered it, changed the "habit" and my usual reaction... although I was getting there, before she moved in.

So, mirabile dictu, here it is again.  :D  And I get to deal with it again. It's always task specific, btw. For me.

Because it's truly "in my head". Internalized. It's not Hol's fault. There is something there about not having a strong enough boundary to prevent someone from demeaning me, criticizing me, before I even make the attempt that is completely on ME. Something I don't think, feel, expect from others... because I don't think I act like that (maybe I do?)... so why am I treated that way? And what in the whole universe does one do to block that? Counter it? Without being a jerk myself?

Such a conundrum. That should keep me busy all winter, huh?
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on September 21, 2020, 01:05:29 PM
My sister and I are finishing up our tizzies and guessing what's in the neighbor's heads after a bonfire/smoked brisket gathering with many dogs.

I think everyone, save 2, are having the same discussions.

It's difficult to have boundaries all the time with everyone to the right degree in the right tones, IME. 

Just......not alleyways possible, bc people hear things in ways not intended, kwim?

A tip for those building Amazon bonfires....
If using camp stove fuel.....white gasoline....you are essentially building a BOMB that will shake houses across the street. 

::nodding emphatically::.

And....I' m protected by Amazon Angels and Archangels; ) 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on September 22, 2020, 12:06:25 PM
Today very busy.

Thinking about moments of serenity make action and creative focus possible and better.

Thinking about guilt.....whatever keeps one from being alone and concentrating unreservedly in that stillness. Being kind....on nurturing and growth.

It slows the process.

Lately it feels like falling into relaxation.....no more bartering with myself for it.  It's changed a lot.

All the neighbor's went through their worrying cycles and calmed down....including me after hours if hard work and togetherness.

One still clucking unhappily, but very sneakily, about the ones he doesn't like.  There was a bear incident a while back.  He never got over it.  She's a British, a doctor, runs a hospital.... the h makes instruments and is a world class mountain climber.  I suspect there's some jealousy, but I'm just making circular motions with my head and validating his feelings. 

Never inviting them over together again, what a mess people can be.

Dog fights.

Hosting at 2 locations...food 100 yards from bonfire.  Honestly, the fire one property was the fun happy place to be, so glad it happened that way. 

I really should know better by now.

Lighter



Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on September 22, 2020, 01:42:16 PM
What happened, Lighter, did they all have a big argument or something? xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on September 25, 2020, 11:17:56 AM
The chattiest male neighbor doesn't like the Lady doctor and her ukulele/guitar building world class mountain climbing husband I THINK bc of a bear altercation involving a mama and cub.  It was reported the cub was shot.  Authorities were sent out.  Only the dog was injured and the shot was in the air, but everyone on the community message board went nuts for a while.

The chatty neighbor was quiet and stand offish one minute, then making my elderly neighbor lady titter over things.....I assume funny sly jokes were told with eyes shifting to oblivious doc and hubby who reminds me of Mr. Rogers.

Chatty also talked about the I'll behaved puppy, which is rich, bc he has an even worse behaved puppy of the same age and size.  The new puppy ticked off Pug and a Corgy with no social skills....so there were dogs fighting.

The next day Chatty man commented about the doc, mainly, and how odd it was she asked for smoked chicken skin silence she runs a hospital and should know better.  He also felt she should know better than to attend our gathering without a mask, which we all did, bc it was all outdoors.

Sometimes it feels a little like they want me to choose between them.....they do nice things for me.....Mr. Rogers made a custom wood worked fake owl mount for my roof and Chatty jumps into lots of my projects....comments....suggests.  Mr. Rogers chopped a big root for me the other day.

Only Chatty says negative things....also a little anger issue going on....you see it with his dog.

I know never ever to do a large gathering again.  We had small ones on my porch and they were much more fun, esp catered bbq instead of smoked at neighbor's.  Too much work and no goid deed goes unpunished.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on September 25, 2020, 12:16:08 PM
It's a shame, Lighter, I've always loved big gatherings, especially the ones where everyone brings something for the table; it means you can all enjoy food together without any one person having to do a huge amount of work for it.  But the dynamics can be difficult and it's such a shame that people can't just be polite or just avoid each other for a couple of hours.  I stopped having them where we lived before because by the time you'd worked out which people couldn't stand each other, which ones would be offended if they didn't get an invite, which ones would turn up without food but want to eat and which would bring kids/dogs/partners that didn't behave themselves, it just got too much to deal with and it's such a pity.  What a shame they couldn't all just get along for a while or at least be polite enough not to draw you into their drama.  Sometimes I think it's easier to stick to kids parties and make the adults stay at home lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on September 26, 2020, 01:14:41 AM
Ugh..... I just remembered my sister telling one of the neighbors to "watch your dog,"  bc it was attacking the doc's big puppy over and over again... not the fault of the puppy, and the lady just kept allowing the attacks, over and over again, bc she was having a really good time. 

The lady snatched up her dog and went home instead of shoving treats, we handed her, into her dog's mouth to keep it occupied. 

People are funny creatures. 

When our pug went nuts and attacked the same dog.....  the pug went home.  That was that. 

Our third sibling will be visiting tomorrow.  Maybe spending the night.  We don't know when  or for how long he'll show, but it's almost certain he'll be here.  My girls have missed him... he's a funny boy.... makes the girls giggle, kind of boy. 

We're also shopping Honda CRVs and maybe he can take a look at the one we have a crush on.  The touring package is so much nicer than the sport package.  We really like the heated leather seats, oh my goodness.  This car was driven by an 80something yo lady, who put 5K miles on it in 5 years.  I think it's the one; )

Lighter









Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on September 28, 2020, 10:15:03 PM
We got the car today....well.  They have to buff out a scratch, so will pick up in a day or two, but it's ours.

As I write this I'm emotionally churning as I wait for youngest dd18 and her friend F to get blood labs back on the friend struggling with new medication.

Friend dealing with cptsd, mood disorset....mother never in his life, dad has some type of PD.

F was living with his "mom", but shes an ex gf of the dad.  An argument means F can't stay with her for the week until a space opens in a residential living situation F looking forward to joining.

His " mom" wants him in hospital, but they won't keep him, bc he's been cleared.

No shelters are open.  "Mom" arguing with F's care team who wants F in a stable situation....not a shelter.  Care team happy he's with us tonight.  Care team believes he's hyper from new antidepressants.  Psych appt tomorrow at 12:30.....is virtual.

I really like F and don't mind him staying here IF he's safe and receiving everything he needs, which will likely be the case.

The idea of him being on the street, with his " mother" washing her hands if him was super upsetting for me.....just an agonizing sadness I barely kept my composure over.

I talked to the " mom", who has a big heart....I mean, taking on a child not her own.  She DID that.  But leaving him homeless for a week, after talking to the care team and arguing w them.....I don't understand and neither does care team who speak or meet with F daily. F doesn't do drugs or drink....I think it's the trans gender status and CPTSD....how does a child's heart heal that?

 F always so grateful and polite in our home, always.  I so want him safe till he's in his new situation.  I'm also conflicted about the " mom" neeeding something that isn't possible....F remaining in hospital when they just won't keep him....cant keep him. Stories don't line up, and what she said didn't sound like bad behavior to me....she used the word disrespectful....but then....not her child.

DD shares most online classes with F so that should be ok. 

So....we have a roast chicken in the oven....a 1000 piece puzzle started yesterday....will be there for us when we get back home.  Whatever happens.....F will eat mommy food.....sleep safely and feel very cared for by youngest DD ( DD so like me....I saw it in her response) and 2 mama's in the house  Oldest DD not so sure about this arrangement for a week, but willing to stay open to whatever comes next....dd20 spent time with F and really likes him.  DD20 has e experience with troubled teens from her time at wilderness camp and therapeutic boarding school.   She's very reality based, which is good, imo.

Cross your fingers for us and pray if you will.  This poor lamb has a difficult path ahead. 

Lighter



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on September 29, 2020, 03:45:07 AM
What about your covid risk from this boy staying in your home, Lighter?
How are you managing precautions?

It's very kind of you to take him in, but ... the virus?

Worrying.

Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on September 29, 2020, 10:24:28 AM
He was tested for Covid at hospital last night, Hops.

And he's as sweet and grateful as he ever was.  He said his mom was angry he didn't finish cleaning his closet before going to a friend's house....considered it disrespectful behavior, which lines up with the mom' s story AND with what Frank is actually like as we know him.  F went back to friend's house and mom told him he could find better accommodations elsewhere, which turned into a fight about F feeling bad on new meds and taking a day off work....then mom took him to hospital with nothing, and washed her hands of him..... So she said to everyone, including me.

"Above her pay grade" is how she put it, but I think she wishes him well and wants him to get the support he needs.  I suspect she was angry and reacting.....not serious about kicking him out, but now...,with F's team disagreeing with her/ arguing.....maybe feels backed into a corner, further disrespected by everyone and reactive.

I know she has F's school computer and clothes.....she put med in mailbox so why not give me other things if she's really done?

Care team looking for shelters if we cant keep him, so they think it's for real. 

I feel things making sense now.  Youngest DD super maternal with F....you can see she FEELS what she's going to do before she knows what she'll do.  DD also being more patient with me...,at 11:30pm, after 2.5 hours of running and waiting for F, I was very tired and referred to F as "her".....dd didn't even bat an eye....which was a huge relief.  Or maybe she's lowered her expectations.....F so tiny and cute and feminine in appearance and voice.  It's difficult to hold him in the right pronouns without blips.  DD is protective mother hen, it seems.  I mean no harm.  She knows that.

As things stand, F stable here....seems like himself to me.  Care team on board with him here, but will take me it day to day without fully committing, just in case.

I'm hoping it works out.  I'm hoping he transitions to new home smoothly and without drama.  He's 18 now. 

Lighter







Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 09, 2020, 10:29:58 AM
Ok.

Update.

It feels like the processing has cleared brain space up for other things.

I tore out my laundry room, am cleaning a sopping wet mass of lint today from vent. 

THIS space will be only for laundry supplies going forward.  That means I'll get organization help from amazingly talented moss friend, who's home looks like an art museum.....everything has a place, kwim? 

My goal IS NOT that perfection.  Rather, I want to utilize my space efficiently and stop the ADD madness I suffer if I don't ask for help.

Moss friend is an artist.  Her tidy huge work space has similar supplies BUT all ordered and easily accessible when she wants them.

I'd like to have systems and order to create within too!

So.....less emotional clutter seems to free up energy for decluttering physical space, IME.

I put a big beautifully shabby chic dresser in my closet...think distressed boho blues and ivory SO pretty.....an added shelf for bedding over the dresser is astonishingly useful. 

The island box of things to send is in a corner, not in the center anymore.  Island luggage folded and neat beside dresser.  I have that closet back, which feels joyful AND I'm finally putting up art I have loved and stacked away over the years. 

The same is happening with laundry room.  I chose blue as accent.  Could have chided green or turquoise, but the Robin's egg blue made my heart sing.

Sister and I were up till 2 making final selection....and there are so many things that bring me joy.....all put away or stuffed under other things, now touched and loved again.

I'm actually looking forward to cleaning out dryer vent and caulking! Woo hop.  I think it's the huge satisfying payoff and job well done.

What I really think is.....
I'm in the zone: )

Lighter
P.S. I missed last appt with T and haven't rescheduled.  I think I'll shift to once a month, or as needed.  I might send our houseguest a fee times, if he seems agreeable.  He has a whole support team.  He might not want that kind of help I see as integral to my mental health, kwim?

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on October 09, 2020, 01:05:19 PM
That sounds lovely, Lighter, it's nice to be able to find things without having to hunt through half the house or pull out a dozen drawers before you get to it.  I definitely find that emotional and physical clutter tend to complement one another, whether because one creates the other or lack in one area creates calm in another as well!  The dresser sounds really lovely.  I've glad you've got moss friend there to advise and make suggestions xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 10, 2020, 10:25:49 AM
Well, we've had a bit of attention seeking behavior from our guest.  Last night he went on an unprotected date and social encounter......no masks with these strangers.

Currently he's quarantined in my bed and bathrooms, and I guess I'll be bringing him food till he's placed in another hist home, which has to happen soon for all our mental health.

Things were clipping along with the laundry room then everything blew into a series of unfortunate events.

I want to shelve the laundry room project BUT have new dryer ordered....I feel driven to get a certain amount done first.

I have to tell you....people comfortable liing in chaos....
it seems, in this case, the boy manufactured this drama....maybe bc we're so boring and puzzle happy people?

I will say this.  Lots of opportunity for boundary work happening.  Youngest DD learning loads.

So....back to the chaos.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on October 10, 2020, 10:53:20 AM
I'm confused but that's nothing new...

F is young teenaged friend of D, and a transgender girl, am I following? Is she on hormones? Perhaps mental health crises (so common for kids going through that) are related to those issues? If so, tragic--and scary, given the transgender teen suicide rate. Maybe impossible for a non-professional to handle. Poor kid.

I hope sister, moss friend, any other person who comes into your home has first quarantined reliably for two weeks. Maybe you've actually formed a "pod" with all these neighbors and friends you describe and I'm worrying about nuttin'.

Stay safe and enjoy your decor-tweaking....sounds really joyful to me.

hugs
Hops

PS My fire pit arrived (!) and I also ordered a simple log rack, just 3' long and tall, which holds about 1/8 cord. If I wind up using the pit a LOT I'll put one of those 2 x 4s-in-brackets racks behind the fence, order more wood, and just refill the smaller one from that. On the patio itself I just want the small rack since I have a perfect spot for it under an overhang. It's well designed and made in the US so I'm pleased. No tools to assemble and it breaks down easily to store in basement for summer.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on October 10, 2020, 11:53:05 AM
I'm sorry it's got chaotic, Lighter.  No good deed goes unpunished, as the saying goes - unfortunately I've had my fingers burnt many times when helping people who, as you say, create drama wherever they go.  I think for some the drama is a necessary way of coping - they can't deal with the internal issues (understandably) so they create something external to focus on instead (I did it myself for years).  Not consciously, but something inside just goes off, I think.  Have you got a date yet for him to move on?  I hope things settle down a bit and the new place is ready for him soon.  Focus on the laundry room - you sounded so enthused about getting that done and getting your stuff organised so I hope this doesn't derail things too much for you xx

Hops the fire pit sounds great and I hope you can get it lit soon! xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 10, 2020, 03:21:29 PM
Tupp:

I purchased a new dryer vent, tape, elbow and clamps this morning.  Once I paint and get flooring down I'll hook dryer up temporarily till17th.  It's raining.  We had a tiny food last night.  We need the dryer today.

About good deeds.....I know this is the first living situation F has ever been in where gentle communication and boundaries are present.

It's probably good he's exposed to this odd form of language, even if you can see it hurts to land on his ears....maybe worse than screaming.

F did get antsy.  He did sabotage, but at least he we welcomed to join sane, serene space in community, so it's in his heart too.

I asked he be moved ASAP with a Monday deadline....and I'm ok with that.

Right now F is silent and not texting me back.I'm about to open stainblocker and get dirty while hoping fresh white paint, over old yellowing paint, will lift my heart.

I think everyone does some self sabotaging, btw.  We learn through mistakes.  I hope F takes some positive things when he goes.

This too shall pass.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on October 10, 2020, 04:29:59 PM
The white paint will do wonders, as will being able to get things dry!  Yep, a tough road for some, self sabotage is something I know far more about that I would like and it's painful to watch kids push back against the people or things that could help them.  But it's a path that has to be walked, I guess.  I can remember going to a friend's house for tea when I was young - probably about ten?  And her parents were so nice to each other and their kids, their house was so calm and friendly, everything about it was so good - and it felt so wrong to me, it was like nothing I'd ever known.  So yep, I can imagine that the current situation has been a big shift for him.  Good that the new place is ready quickly, though, and maybe as things settle with him he'll be able to maintain friendship with D and be part of your extended circle.  I'll keep my ears peeled for more laundry room updates! xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on October 12, 2020, 10:06:15 AM
Lighter, projects like the laundry room are starting to feel like "presents to myself". Even washing woodwork or the mundane dusting, vacumning, decluttering... just FEELS better to me. I'm really into a "less is more" phase right now and the amount of knick-knacks and trinkets I have around me feel like lead weights around the perimeter of a net thrown over me.

I'm moving more forcefully into functional art - ie, beautifully crafted functional items and only what I USE on a regular basis.

The completion of the bedroom work is still going S L O W. I need the electrician next and he didn't call me back last week. Then I can do the trim... and maybe find some tiny swiveling or flexible reading lights to mount on that trim board on the inside of the inset. (I haven't forgotten about pictures; just had fires to put out - metaphorically speaking.)
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 15, 2020, 12:35:54 PM
Amber:

I'm right there with you decluttering and curating lovely handmade things for daily use. 

I will call moss friend to help organize and edit, bc I need that help.

Another neighbor is cutting and installing crown in laundry room today.  I'll be taking notes and lessons so I can do it myself next time.

Yesterday my sis and I placed moss around his lovely 100 gallon pond.  We also put big healthy water hyacinth and lettuce in...changed the entire look and feel of it!

I really enjoy helping neighbor's and receiving help and this is the neighbor who brought me 2 huge lawn bags of roof moss from a friend's house.

All good: )
Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on October 15, 2020, 07:03:01 PM
Tupp, I was moved by your story about visiting the kind neighbor family and how that felt to you. I forgot to tell you so...but I pictured it vividly and it hit my heart. Like a puppy out in the dark with its nose pressed against a window. Not as bad as what you felt, but I remember a lot of yearning for a kind home atmosphere when my brother made me so miserable, my mother was emotionally absent and my Dad was working too hard to really see. Much less what happened at school.

I told my T about that incident with the strange horse who spotted me weeping against the fence and cantered over to plant her forehead on mine and stnd stock-still to comfort me until I was sone. She asked, a happy memory? I said yes in a way but it also hurts, because I was feeling pure empathy and connection from an animal that I realize I never got from a person. I'd been a very sad child. I can relate to how you felt seeing that gentle family enjoy tea together. Ouch.

Lighter, any update on your young houseguest? I hope she's okay and that the questions I peppered you with weren't intrusive. NO need to fill in if it doesn't feel comfortable. I just began thinking about [her?] and what is happening in that life.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 15, 2020, 07:59:51 PM
 Hops:

The houseguest....a him....is in another safe location.  Either a host home attached to the facility he's going into, or a sort of step brother's sofa. 

I haven't asked him or his mental health team. 

That team is amazing, btw.  All trauma informed therapists, and one does EMDR if they can get him to a more stable head place. 

I'm very hopeful about his situation.


Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 15, 2020, 11:56:37 PM
I have to admit....figuring out how to cut crown moulding was brain burning difficult today.  It took my neighbor and me 2.5 hours to finish cutting 4 pieces of moulding and do
not
laugh
bc it's really really hard.

The nail gun battery was dead so we finish and caulk tomorrow.  That leaves finding brackets for washer dryer pedestals, which aren't same brand as new LG appliances.
I should be done on 17th with a few small things to finish.
The weather is amazing and I make sure to work outside, shower on the porch or rest in the moss daily. 

I feel....

happy.
Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on October 16, 2020, 07:21:30 AM
Crown moulding is definitely hard Lighter! It's backwards & inside out when it's up; and you're making cuts from exactly the opposite direction from the floor.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 16, 2020, 11:31:41 PM
Ahhh.....neighbor and I could sellout brains burning SO HARD, but done and caulked.  Looks amazing, btw.  Really finished off the very simple room and open cabinets.  Just really pleased.

Dryer arrives tomorrow with an 8 hour delivery window, grrr.

The happy piece in all this is selecting and handling things I love, or thought brought me joy.  I'm discovering what's truly special for me, and editing out everything else from all over the place.

Now, when people walk into the house thru the garage, they enter into a pristine room with uncluttered lovely sieves holding beautiful and functional laundry room items, and little else.  So pretty.

It brings me joy.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on October 17, 2020, 12:48:44 PM
Glad about your joy, Lighter!

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on October 18, 2020, 08:35:42 AM
Hol and I were talking about that "claiming" of a space yesterday - and turning it into just what we visualized. She is still moving into the hut - and trying to sort, purge, toss/donate/turn into sewing supplies - and figure out where everything goes. She's had a couple of those moments of AAAAHHHHH... it's just so.

I am slowly getting there in the bedroom. For some reason, my usual helpers havent't called back to schedule - so I'll probably have Buck help me finish a few of the details. Then I'm ready to entertain redesign of the living room. Just in the idea phase right now. And of course, now I have to be a bit more frugal and sure of what I want than previously. But it's doable.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on October 19, 2020, 01:33:34 PM
Ahhh.....neighbor and I could sellout brains burning SO HARD, but done and caulked.  Looks amazing, btw.  Really finished off the very simple room and open cabinets.  Just really pleased.

Dryer arrives tomorrow with an 8 hour delivery window, grrr.

The happy piece in all this is selecting and handling things I love, or thought brought me joy.  I'm discovering what's truly special for me, and editing out everything else from all over the place.

Now, when people walk into the house thru the garage, they enter into a pristine room with uncluttered lovely sieves holding beautiful and functional laundry room items, and little else.  So pretty.

It brings me joy.

Lighter

That sounds really lovely, Lighter, and I hope the dryer arrived!  Those eight hour slots are frustrating; most companies here now will text on the day with a two hour slot but it still means you have to keep your day flexible to be able to be in at the right time.  I hope it got there eventually xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 19, 2020, 02:18:40 PM
Oh, the dryer arrived, Tupp.  It's sitting in front of the master bath door, not attached to its base....waiting for me to engineer the two together.

But first....engineering the super heavy washer to its pedestal, which I've thought through, but have to execute.

I'm at Dad's farm dealing with Phillioinos moving into a wonderful brick ranch in great shape.  They need a houseful of stuff so will mark what they can taken, then help them move next weekend.  It's very exciting.  They're buying a house! 

Much to think about now.

I do want to say.....it feels like my parasympathetic nervous system is up and running efficiently.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on October 21, 2020, 06:58:50 AM
Oh wow, Lighter, busy busy!  That sounds great, lots going on and a calm and untriggered nervous system to boot.  That sounds like a good combination.  I hope everything goes smoothly and well :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 21, 2020, 02:34:16 PM
Laundry room back together.
Finally.
Looks amazing.  I have some cabinet trim to finish and a hole to drill for electric power strip to be mounted in shelving.  Youngest said it's too nice a laundry room for our house, but it is serene and beautiful.

I think we'll work outdoors the balance of the day.

ICD friend will help me organize and put in systems next week....hopefully ones I can sustain.

This is great good motivation for a brutal edit. 

I'm glad you have a pleasant garden area, Tupp.  Maybe look at photos of gardens you love, and think about the garden you will have.  Research the plants and growing conditions so you can visualize the next property garden accurately....to optimize joy and planning.

I taped a picture of the laundry room I liked...that was 6 years ago, then, BAM!  It was time to make it happen when it was time.  I have to tell you....I had details figured out ahead, like how to remove cabinet doors, caulk and trim out to make it look like I had built in shelving....its all the difference for 10.00 in trim and a tube of caulk, just about.

Anyhow, shade vs sun gardens research would brighten my heart during a dreary dim winter season : )  Maybe yours too!

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on October 22, 2020, 06:34:15 AM
Amazing what a few small and not too expensive changes can do to the way a place looks, Lighter, and amazing that changing the look changes the way it feels as well.  I'm glad it's almost completely finished and is looking the way you wanted it to :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on October 25, 2020, 01:29:16 PM
Lighter I had a very vivid dream about you last night and it was so real I woke up panicking that I hadn't made the spare bed up for you!  Lol.  In the dream you came to visit me in my home, which wasn't my current home but a flat with lots of rooms and long corridors.  You were wearing a very vivid pink dress and you'd brought me a lorry load of vegetables that I was busy cutting and prepping for the freezer, along with a stack of travel books for me to read.  We went outside to get some more vegetables from the lorry but then couldn't remember which door was the right one as there were dozens of them and none of them had numbers, so we had to try them all, whilst trying to hold on to all the potatoes and cauliflowers.  Lol.  I've no idea what a dream analyst would make of that but it felt so real I was half expecting to find boxes of veg in the kitchen when I came downstairs this morning :)  lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 25, 2020, 02:26:52 PM
 I'm taking a moment to pack up my father's lake house to check on the board, and..
You're dream brought tears to my eyes, ((Tupp.))

You know I was checking flights your way a few years ago.  I can absolutely picture that visit with you.  Your dream made me so happy: )

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on October 26, 2020, 07:31:57 AM
I'm taking a moment to pack up my father's lake house to check on the board, and..
You're dream brought tears to my eyes, ((Tupp.))

You know I was checking flights your way a few years ago.  I can absolutely picture that visit with you.  Your dream made me so happy: )

Lighter

It was so vivid, Lighter, although I'm still not sure how significant the cauliflowers were :)  Lol, I would so love to come over there and meet all of my board buddies one day, that would be such an amazing get together :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on October 27, 2020, 01:13:29 AM
We LOVE cauliflower in this house, Tupp: ) 

All kinds of ways, so it's funny you dreamed I brought a lorry full to you.

We just made 5 batches of veggie soups, and I've been enjoying them so much.  What an odd coincidence you had that dream.

I think we will have a visit one day, btw.  I'm not sure how or why, but I feel it' s a matter of when, not if.

Lighter

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 04, 2020, 11:33:28 AM
An amazing thing happened last week.  I found VHS tapes my father put together from old family 8mm film.

It was jarring to see my Grandparents, youngand strong.  So active.  Training horses.  Trotting my baby father around on a pony.  Super fit.  Charismatic.  My father's naughty uncles in Naval uniforms, jumping on horses, ruding like movie stars....it looked dangerous and exhilarating.

Then the years passed and my father became an active toddler, child, teen and young adult...getting married with naughty uncles in his wedding.

By naughty, I mean mysoginists....lacking empathy for animals.  I saw my Great Grandfather....the man who raised and beat my paternal Grandmother bloody....saw him moving and interacting in the family.  The uncles marrying.  Having babies....cousins flipping around together, doing cartwheels and younger cousins trying it too.

Lots of emotions, but mostly this truth...
we don't understand how fast life goes by, then it's over.  You can see my Grandparents, SO busy, didn't know those moments would be gone so soon.  Like they were trying to tell me to WAKE UP!

I saw what my FOO was....what they loved...what they lost and left behind.

I want more of the things I love.  To protect them fiercely and limit wasted time and people who take my attention from what's important to me.

I can feel when I'm on my path.  It's not everyone's path.  It's mine and everyone doesn't have to approve of it.

Lighter







Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 04, 2020, 12:08:13 PM
Quote
It's mine and everyone doesn't have to approve of it.

A big fat Amen to that, Lighter! Good for you.

Glad you found so many layers of meaning in the old movies.
Sounded like a very clarifying moment.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 04, 2020, 02:03:55 PM
Thanks, Hops.

I walked outside with the Pug and started picking up sticks and weeds....Halloween decorations....had truck towed to beloved mechanic....helped ailing neighbor get groceries inside....will get card from their roofer, currently sticking shingles off the roof.

What I noticed was other people's voices pressuring me to do what's important to them.....all in my head, if course.

That's stopping.....now, as I notice it.

I stopped bargaining with myself, which was a type of pressure leading to nothing good.

Now, I'm going to end the adrenaline shots  running through my life.  Taking care of other people's feelings and what they feel are priorities, for me.  Reacting to their anxiety shuts down my ability to assess and process, prioritize and respond.

Codependence, Lawdy, deliver me from it.

At least I'm aware and not auto judging what comes up.



Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 04, 2020, 03:05:25 PM
Quote
Taking care of other people's feelings and what they feel are priorities, for me.  Reacting to their anxiety shuts down my ability to assess....

Yegods, Lighter. That's SO wise. The anxiety hijack and how it interferes with healthy caring. You must've been a fly on the wall in my T session just now!

Plus, I really like the term "auto judging." That is really apt. And helpful.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on November 05, 2020, 05:06:21 AM
That sounds amazing, Lighter.  So nice to find those videos and realise how much of life we need to experience now, without judgement or worrying about everyone else.  Yes.  A great way to be and such a nice way to move forward now.  Well done you xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on November 06, 2020, 06:37:50 AM
YAY to owning your path and not apologizing or trying to justify it to anyone! That's what I call freedom these days. Freedom from what others tried to make us into; what we did to ourselves to insure that things stayed calm and predictable in the home... etc ad boredom of the same old same old.

There must've been so many answers (subtle, subliminal things along with the outright AHAs) captured in those films that solved some long-perturbing puzzles or riddles for you. What a treasure trove!
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 06, 2020, 08:14:14 PM
Everything feels different.  I don't question it much.  I'm just grateful when another shift happens.  I wonder what's next, and notice how little fear there is. 

I know bc every once in a while a little thread whacks me upside the head....and I think....
I remember you.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on November 07, 2020, 05:57:30 AM
That sounds so great, Lighter, especially as the old stuff pops up but you just notice it as a memory, nothing more.  So amazing to read.  Do you think the lockdown/pandemic reduced the number of different things you had to manage and so made it easier for this focus to kind of settle in or do you think it was just time for this to happen after so much work and so many years of striving to get to an easier place?  Just curious with regards to your insights, I'm so happy that this is happening for you :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 07, 2020, 11:44:03 AM
Things are rolling....mostly rolling.

I catch the shockingly negative thoughts....it feels like always.  They're fewer and fewer, then....bam.  An old ONE pops up. No longer familiar.  I greet it with surprise and send it on its way like a way.....no hard feelings. Just... I don't have space or need or the ability to afford it any longer.  I want other things.

The less shocking negative thoughts sometimes slip in and thrum through my body before I notice them.  It's less upsetting...
now.  More interesting.  I'm curious about them. Eager to meet them now.  In the light.  I invite them.

It's the attention to somatic feelings, as it becomes habit,  bringing the tension/ pain/anxiety/fear, etc to my attention at that point. THEN, I SEE it.

 I remember when my girls learned to check in with their teachers and peers.  I'm doing that with myself.  Trying to model it for the girls without.....bugging them. 

It's a mistake to look at the news.  I walked with youngest DD in the woods yesterday.  She has an art project and wanted a stream with a concrete bridge in jusssst the right light as reference material.  She likes the round metal pipes the eater rushes through.

Going into nature is a super helpful thing.  I have leaves to blow....the happy moss is full of sporaphytes now.  The gutters and steep riif need attention.  I gave a huge amount of moss to my buddy....some to a helpful neighbor for his new koi pond.

The time I spend with my daughters is so precious to me.  There's joy walking into recently created sacred space in the laundry room.  Almost done....but it feeels amazing.

The quiet time with my girls, one in one and less often together, is a few warm layers deeper into focus and joy and BEING right where I belong doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing.

The rest lines up behind and because of the care and attention and creation....the noticing joy.

I ate a salad with roasted turkey, 2 Tbs fresh ground flax seeds, lime juice, raw apple cider vin and pink salt....it just appeared without thinking about it.  No bartering or shaming involved.  Most of all...no pressure of SHOULDs going on in the back of foreground.  Just choosing joy and doing...chopping and carrying has more space to BE when I limit the voices and the SHOULDs, ime.

I guess it's the same zone that used to come and go mysteriously.

It feels a bit like conjuring now, which is super empowering...super joyful.  Not that life us all joy and mindfulness, bc it's not.

What it is...
And I wrolite this out, again, more for myself, is unconditional self compassion ( it gets easier, more familiar) a duty to remain curious and refusal to judge.....anything, if I can help it.

I do nothing perfectly.

Everything ebbs and flows.  It's ok.  It's exactly how it's supposed to be....even when I lose the thread.  Off trail has lessons and useful information.

Sort of like a dog's attitude about smells.  None are good or bad, though we dont agree about that.  We judge....a good bit, and it's interesting to stretch and see it, or smell it, the way dog's do.  Poop, flowers, bacon and BO are simply information for them.  They don't recoil.  They smell information, and they don't judge it.

At least that's my understanding, and what would life be if I reached that level if curiosity about everything....snd kept moving in my moments.

What.
A.
Rant, but super satisfying to write out.

Last night I made a complicated Korean StonecBowl dish both girls loved.  I was frustrated and overwhelmed on and off during the process, bc I'd detailed the stove and cook top, counters earlier in the day.  The dish was a bunch if little messy bombs going off, and I was the cause.

Then I'd notice, bring myself back to center, remember I'm making beautiful food from freezer items....the effort to empty both freezers has begun, and go back to enjoying the clean, the ingredients, the thought of sharing an amazing meal, and that zone found me again and again, but easier each time.

::sigh::

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 07, 2020, 02:05:41 PM
Really, really lovely to read, Lighter.
The balance and undeterred intention of your direction.

The way a toxic thought oozed to the surface and it was
no longer familiar.

I loved that!

So glad to read all this balance of happiness and focused
intentional contentment. Wonnnnnderful depiction.

Yay,
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 08, 2020, 04:34:59 PM
Thank you, Hops. 

Tupp....I think the pandemic is a piece of it, but all the study and new T and coping strategies are larger factors.

If we'd cleaned out Dad's house 2 years ago, it would have been a different experience, for sure.

It feels like I have the chance to see and feel farther than before....or beyond reactivity...consistently, as a choice.

It feels like I'm stepping into what I used to only glimpse and memontarily touch.

Like I'm beginning to inhabit that space.....as byproduct of new habits, rather than purposefully DOING it or trying to get there, etc.

And experiencing positive things, unexpectedly, isn't so amazing or surprising now.  I guess I'm getting used to this new norm.

The pandemic happening, when it did or after a lot of work with new T, probably moved things along faster bc it was real challenge and fear we (T and Lighter)worked through together....I wasn't on my own or overwhelmed for long. 

More pandemic  isolation, with T's support, was practice and space, rather than unresolved additional trauma and isolating feelings of being cut off...I guess.

Being introverted was helpful too, of course.

Lighter



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on November 10, 2020, 07:00:18 AM
That sounds like the new habits becoming the default setting, Lighter, with the old stuff being the unusual bit that doesn't fit properly any more.  How amazing.  And all down to your hard work as well, slogging away for all those years to rework it and change and make things different.  What an amazing thing to give to yourself and your girls.  And yes, I can understand completely how dealing with your father's effects now can feel so different to doing it at a point in the past.  It's amazing how our change of perspective changes the way things affect us.  But only comes with time, I think?  I don't know that there's a magic shortcut to things not being painful any more.  Very glad that it's been such a cathartic experience for you and that it hasn't dragged you off into a place you didn't want to go xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 10, 2020, 01:12:33 PM
Tupp:

I stored things at my Dad's, so there were painful jabs while dealing with them.  Feelings if being.....well....feelings you can imagine being dragged through threatening systems by PD people doing all they can to destroy you while focusing painfully on your children to leverage and do trauma....and what was lost while defending and eventually counter attacking, which isn't in my normal character.....what it all cost my children, nieces and nephew.

THAT was tough, then came the home movies with shift in perspective.  Turning away from a closed door of joy was how it felt....and I realized how attached I've been to the loss.  I realized I don't want to manufacture that now very familiar dynamic in the present.....it was an emotional release....like a hand releasing something hot.  A reaction....not a response, which is weird to BE reactive, suddenly, in a healthy way!  Maybe for the first time, and bc of all the information taking root and space....crowding out old habits and unconscious beliefs.

Honestly, mining the depths of unconscious beliefs is a layer of work moving things forward in jerks and spasms, feels like, IME, but.... that's part of moving forward and inhabiting new space....not leaving any major layers of habit and understanding unseat with and behind, holding back, dragging behind, clawing and struggling....taking focus back, rattling and creating distraction I couldn't identify before but now tend to and try very hard to process and move into historic files with intention.

I feel I'm not at all done, but now have basic tools benefiting my style and ability to cope....to expand my window of resilience, as my T says.

Writing that out.....I feel very keenly the years of frustration and confusion when feeling centered and in the zone went away.

I have such compassion for myself and inability to just FIX it.  The more I tried to think my way out, the harder it was.

I did collect useful information helping me understand and make sense of the therapy sessions, which I don't think I would have, otherwise.

I could be wrong, of course.  Dropping expectation is a default now, not just a fleeting comfort during crisis and terrifying threats I couldn't control.

I think I believe all will be well, all the time now, rather than believe or struggle to believe, bc I'm stuck in my limbic system too long, not understanding why or how to get OUT if I can just remember to breathe and get very curious...things start falling into place, like dominoes.  Feeling better begins dropping into place and new unconscious belief systems begin organizing , shifting, building and finally taking up residence without creating resistance and persistence of the old, if that makes sense.

Not only levels to notice and attend to, but ways to attend to help the process, rather than force and extend, with more frustration and judgment popping up, which I remember keenly suffering through.

THAT has largely been extinguished, as of now.  I AM kind to myself. 
I DO stop shame and guilt before it gets inside.
I don't judge...and that's key.  Its6also a work in progress.  So.etimes I have to remember, backtrack and SEE the situation without reactive anger.....and I do try.  I think I mostly succeed now, and it's an amazing lesson if I don't.  I compare and notice how each feeeeels, so different.

Again, a small release of emotionally dropping something dangerous and hot.

Maybe the real shift is understanding how detrimental old habits truly are....believing....internalizing and processing fully so all the reward evaporates and leaves a void where new defaults are primed to....slide into place.  The old default patterns fully processed and moved into historic files with a resounding slam.

Maybe.  Not sure.  Writing that last part doesn't feel as solid or known and understood, frankly, but I suspect that's the case.

Lighter





Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 10, 2020, 01:22:23 PM
ILighterI had dinner with moss friend after being so busy we didn't connect for a while.

It was great....she made soup and salad.  I was famished and so grateful for mommy food.  I palm rolled her locks, which took a lot of energy and friction, but so satisfying to figure out and see the tight, neat improvement. 

We have a lot in common, but I'm mist excited about her help in organizing my house.  She's a whizbang at it.

I like her dh well enough, as we have things in common too. 

I have to finish blowing leaves before tomorrow's rain.  Yesterday my I dropped onto the ground and pulled weeds from neighbor's yard....it felt like meditation AND it works toward both yards being weed free. 

Today is all blowing, bc weeding is easier in wet soil.  I feel like I'm exactly where I belong doing what I should be doing with an understanding big change is on the way.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 19, 2020, 12:40:38 AM
I wasn't looking for a zero gravity chair, but found one at the Rehab Restore.  Oldest DD tried it this evening and found a good deal of relief in it.  It gets her feet above her heart, which is usually a PITA.

DD so pleased with the chair...it feels like we connect easier....without friction.  She hears me.  She's open and appreciates touch and care, which isn't usually the case.  Since she spends 10 hours on her feet at work, she's experiencing pain I can help her with now she's open to it.
Lighter






Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 21, 2020, 09:36:06 PM
Well....
There's more spaciousness and easy ability to put myself in other people's shoes, I've noticed.

What's more, I'm sometimes sideswiped by unexpected clarity and compassion for myself as things change, and I notice that change. 

An example is emptying the freezers and fridges out as I prepare meals without shopping for more than fresh veggies, and nothing else.

The clean, emptying and almost empty spaces feel amazing, but flag tension and put a sharp point on my habit of buying and hoarding food in an effort to feel safer...more secure....less at the mercy of.  It hit me like a hammer, then passed.

SEEING myself, from a new POV, without trying, is different for me.  Like I've recovered from floundering in heavy surf, crawled onto solid ground, caught my breath, stood up and changed my physical perspective, if that makes sense.

I have new capacity to feel and extend compassion to my younger self.  It's different than feeling rage or adrenalin and desire for justice and accountability, which is all I can remember.

I never had time or desire to extend and receive compassion in relationship with myself......and it just appeared as I named a habit, and understood what I did and why.  It was nose on a Pebble for so long.

Not huge revelation, but a definite shift.

We're spending Thanksgiving at home....just the 3 of us with Honebaked ham, smoked turkey breast and whatever we decide between us.

Maybe some new traditions.  Maybe some old, but relaxed and together and no social pressure.

I cleaned gutters yesterday.  Will blow leaves tomorrow and work on moss....likely.

I'm ready to steam wallpaper in both bathrooms at home and after Thsgvg at my Dad's. 

Ya.  Breathing feels easier. 

Lighter




Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 22, 2020, 12:11:00 AM
Quote
new capacity to feel and extend compassion to my younger self

Some of the greatest words I've ever read in a Lighter post!

I am very happy for you, Lighter.

I really believe this realization is just IT.
It's amazing how when we temporarily lose track of that compassion for ourselves, the more we practice it the quicker we still rebound.

I'm really glad. Great to read.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 22, 2020, 09:12:31 AM
Thanks, Hops.  Even as I write this I notice old patterns popping up.  I'm going to breathe through them and see what's underneath.

Whew....time for some yard work.  The moss beckons: )

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on November 23, 2020, 10:54:56 AM

I'm reading through this thread.  There's one thing here, Hops.....I tried to say it when you were in T with M, but feel I fell short.  I hope it makes more sense from thus author.

I included the entire post, bc I enjoyed it and find reminders helpful regarding
 my true goal of remembering my authentic self, and coming home to her, again and again, without judgment or expectation. 

Lighter

The Heart's Intention
by Phillip Moffitt
SETTING INTENTIONS IS NOT THE SAME AS MAKING GOALS.
UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENCE CAN LEAD TO MORE SKILLFUL
LIVING AND LESS SUFFERING.
Once a month, an hour before the Sunday-evening meditation class I teach, I offer a group
interview for students who attend regularly. These interviews give them the opportunity to
ask questions about their meditation practice or about applying the dharma to daily life. In a
recent session, a yogi who dutifully meditates every morning admitted, "I must be confused
about the Buddha's teaching on right intention. I'm very good about setting intentions and
then reminding myself of them. But things don't ever seem to turn out according to those
intentions, and I fall into disappointment.
At first, I could only smile in response. What a good question! When I asked her to explain
these intentions, she proceeded to describe a number of goals for her future - to become less
tense at work, to spend more time with her family, to stabilize her finances, and more. She
was suffering from a kind of confusion that seems to afflict many bright, hardworking people:
mixing up two different life functions that are easily mistaken for each other. All of her goals
were laudable, but none would fit within the Buddha's teachings on right intention.
GOALS VS. INTENTIONS
Goal making is a valuable skill; it involves envisioning a future outcome in the world or in
your behavior, then planning, applying discipline, and working hard to achieve it. You
organize your time and energy based on your goals; they help provide direction for your life.
Committing to and visualizing those goals may assist you in your efforts, but neither of these
activities is what I call setting intention. They both involve living in an imagined future and
are not concerned with what is happening to you in the present moment. With goals, the
future is always the focus: Are you going to reach the goal? Will you be happy when you do?
What's next?
Setting intention, at least according to Buddhist teachings, is quite different than goal
making. It is not oriented toward a future outcome. Instead, it is a path or practice that is
focused on how you are "being" in the present moment. Your attention is on the everpresent
"now" in the constantly changing flow of life. You set your intentions based on understanding
what matters most to you and make a commitment to align your worldly actions with your
inner values.
As you gain insight through meditation, wise reflection, and moral living, your ability to act
from your intentions blossoms. It is called a practice because it is an ever-renewing process.
You don't just set your intentions and then forget about them; you live them every day.
Although the student thought she was focusing on her inner experience of the present
moment, she was actually focusing on a future outcome; even though she had healthy goals
that pointed in a wholesome direction, she was not being her values. Thus, when her efforts
did not go well, she got lost in disappointment and confusion. When this happened, she had
no "ground of intention" to help her regain her mental footing - no way to establish herself in
a context that was larger and more meaningful than her goal-oriented activity.
Goals help you make your place in the world and be an effective person. But being grounded
in intention is what provides integrity and unity in your life. Through the skillful cultivation of
intention, you learn to make wise goals and then to work hard toward achieving them without
getting caught in attachment to outcome. As I suggested to the yogi, only by remembering
your intentions can you reconnect with yourself during those emotional storms that cause you
to lose touch with yourself. This remembering is a blessing, because it provides a sense of
meaning in your life that is independent of whether you achieve certain goals or not.
Ironically, by being in touch with and acting from your true intentions, you become more
effective in reaching your goals than when you act from wants and insecurities. Once the yogi
understood this, she started to work with goals and intentions as separate functions. She later
reported that continually coming back to her intentions in the course of her day was actually
helping her with her goals.
Doing the Groundwork
What would it be like if you didn't measure the success of your life just by what you get and
don't get, but gave equal or greater priority to how aligned you are with your deepest values?
Goals are rooted in maya (illusion) - the illusionary world where what you want seems fixed
and unchanging but in truth is forever changing. It is in this world that mara, the inner voice
of temptation and discouragement, flourishes. Goals never fulfill you in an ongoing way; they
either beget another goal or else collapse. They provide excitement - the ups and downs of life
- but intention is what provides you with self-respect and peace of mind.
Cultivating right intention does not mean you abandon goals. You continue to use them, but
they exist within a larger context of meaning that offers the possibility of peace beyond the
fluctuations caused by pain and pleasure, gain and loss.
The Buddha's Fourth Noble Truth teaches right intention as the second step in the eightfold
path: Cause no harm, and treat yourself and others with Loving-kindness and compassion
while seeking true happiness, that which comes from being free from grasping and clinging.
Such a statement may sound naive or idealistic - a way for nuns and monks to live but not
suitable for those of us who must make our way in this tough, competitive world. But to think
this is to make the same error as the woman in my group interview.
In choosing to live with right intention, you are not giving up your desire for achievement or a
better life, or binding yourself to being morally perfect. But you are committing to living each
moment with the intention of not causing harm with your actions and words, and not
violating others through your livelihood or sexuality. You are connecting to your own sense of
kindness and innate dignity. Standing on this ground of intention, you are then able to
participate as you choose in life's contests, until you outgrow them.
Naturally, sometimes things go well for you and other times not, but you do not live and die
by these endless fluctuations. Your happiness comes from the strength of your internal
experience of intention. You become one of those fortunate human beings who know who
they are and are independent of our culture's obsession with winning. You still feel sadness,
loss, lust, and fear, but you have a means for directly relating to all of these difficult emotions.
Therefore, you are not a victim, nor are your happiness and peace of mind dependent on how
things are right now.
Misusing Good Intentions
When I offer teachings on right intention, students often ask two things: "Isn't this like
signing up for the Ten Commandments in another form?" and "What about the old saying
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions'?" First, the Ten Commandments are excellent
moral guidelines for us all, but right intention is not moral law; it is an attitude or state of
mind, which you develop gradually. As such, the longer you work with right intention, the
subtler and more interesting it becomes as a practice.

Hops, this next part is something that's been niggling at my brain in reference to M and reactivity his behaviors bring up for you, but also his reactivity to your reactivity, if it makes sense.
In Buddhist psychology, intention manifests itself as "volition," which is the mental factor
that most determines your consciousness in each moment. Literally, it is your intention that
affects how you interpret what comes into your mind.
Take, for example, someone who is being rude and domineering during a meeting at work. He
is unpleasant, or at least your experience of him is unpleasant. What do you notice? Do you
see his insecurity and how desperately hungry he is for control and attention? Or do you
notice only your own needs and dislike, and take his behavior personally, even though it really
has little to do with you? If you are grounded in your intention, then your response will be to
notice his discomfort and your own suffering and feel compassion toward both of you. This
doesn't mean that you don't feel irritation or that you allow him to push you around, but you
avoid getting lost in judgment or personal reaction. Can you feel the extra emotional space
such an orientation to life provides? Do you see the greater range of options for interpreting
the difficulties in your life? I feel that's important if you're to spend any time with M. 
As for those good intentions that lead to hell in the old adage, they almost always involve
having an agenda for someone else. They are goals disguised as intentions, and you abandon
your inner intentions in pursuit of them. Moreover, those goals are often only your view of
how things are supposed to be, and you become caught in your own reactive mind.
Mixing Motives
One issue around cultivating intention that trips up many yogis is mixed motives. During
individual interviews with me, people will sometimes confess their anguish at discovering
during meditating how mixed their motives were in past situations involving a friend or a
family member. They feel as though they're not a good person and they aren't trustworthy.
Sometimes my response is to paraphrase the old blues refrain "If it wasn't for bad luck, I
wouldn't have no luck at all." It is the same with motives; in most situations, if you didn't go
with your mixed motives, you wouldn't have any motivation at all. You would just be stuck.
The Buddha knew all about mixed motives. In the Majjhima Nikaya sutta "The Dog-Duty
Ascetic," he describes how "dark intentions lead to dark results" and "bright intentions lead to
bright results." Then he says, "Bright and dark intentions lead to bright and dark results." Life
is like this, which is why we practice. You are not a fully enlightened being; therefore,
expecting yourself to be perfect is a form of delusion.
Forget judging yourself, and just work with the arising moment. Right intention is a continual
aspiration. Seeing your mixed motives is one step toward liberation from ignorance and from
being blinded by either desire or aversion. So welcome such a realization, even though it is
painful. The less judgment you have toward yourself about your own mixed motives, the more
clearly you can see how they cause suffering. This insight is what releases the dark motives
and allows room for bright ones.
Sowing Karmic Seeds
For some people, the most difficult aspect of right intention has to do with the role it plays in
the formation of karma. The Buddha classified karma as one of the "imponderables," meaning
we can never fully understand it; attempting to do so is not fruitful. Yet we are challenged to
work with the truth that every action has both a cause and a consequence.
The primary factor that determines karma is intention; therefore, practicing right intention is
crucial to gaining peace and happiness. In Buddhist teachings, karma refers to "the seed from
action." This means that any word or action is either wholesome or unwholesome and
automatically plants a seed of future occurrence that will blossom on its own accord when the
conditions are correct, just as a plant grows when there is the right balance of sunshine,
water, and nutrients.
Whether an action is wholesome or unwholesome is determined by the intention that
originated it. On reflection, this is common sense. The example often given is that of a knife in
the hands of a surgeon versus those of an assailant. Each might use a knife to cut you, but one
has the intention to help you heal, while the other has the intention to harm you. Yet you
could die from the actions of either. Intention is the decisive factor that differentiates the two.
In this view, you are well served by cultivating right intention.
When I'm teaching right intention, I like to refer to it as the heart's intention. Life is so
confusing and emotionally confounding that the rational mind is unable to provide an
absolutely clear intention. What we have to rely on is our intuitive knowing, or "felt wisdom."
In the Buddha's time, this was referred to asbodhichitta, "the awakened mind-heart."
It is said that a karmic seed may bloom at one of three times: immediately, later in this
lifetime, or in a future life. Conversely, what is happening to you at each moment is the result
of seeds planted in a past life, earlier in this life, or in the previous moment. Whatever your
feelings about past lives, the latter two are cause-andeffect phenomena that you recognize as
true. But here is a thought to reflect on that is seldom mentioned: Whatever is manifesting
itself in your life right now is affected by how you receive it, and how you receive it is largely
determined by your intention in this moment.
Imagine that you will have a difficult interaction later today. If you are not mindful of your
intention, you might respond to the situation with a harmful physical action - maybe because
you got caught in your fear, panic, greed, or ill will. But with awareness of your intention, you
would refrain from responding physically. Instead, you might only say something unskillful,
causing much less harm. Or if you have a habit of speaking harshly, with right intention you
might only have a negative thought but find the ability to refrain from uttering words you
would later regret. When you're grounded in your intention, you are never helpless in how
you react to any event in your life. While it is true that you often cannot control what happens
to you, with mindfulness of intention you can mitigate the effects of what occurs in terms of
both the moment itself and what kind of karmic seed you plant for the future.
Developing Resolve
Buddhist teachings suggest that there are certain characteristics called paramis, or
perfections, you must develop before you can ever achieve liberation. One of these qualities,
right resolve, has to do with developing the will to live by your intentions. Through practicing
right resolve, you learn to set your mind to maintaining your values and priorities, and to
resist the temptation to sacrifice your values for material or ego gain. You gain the ability to
consistently hold your intentions, no matter what arises.
Right intention is like muscle - you develop it over time by exercising it. When you lose it, you
just start over again. There's no need to judge yourself or quit when you fail to live by your
intentions. You are developing the habit of right intention so that it becomes an unconscious
way of living - an automatic response to all situations. Right intention is organic; it thrives
when cultivated and wilts when neglected.
Not long ago, the yogi gave me an update on her efforts to practice right intention. She said
that for several years, she had pushed and pulled in her relationship, getting irritated with her
partner for not spending more time with the family and demanding that he change. One day
in meditation, she realized that this was just another example of her getting caught in wanting
more. In truth, there was nothing intrinsically wrong with his behavior. It was just that she
wanted to spend more time together than he did. She immediately stopped making demands
and was much happier.
Soon after this first realization, she found herself in a situation at work where all of her
insecurities were ignited. She was in a meeting during which an action was being proposed
that she felt was unfair, and she sensed anger rising in her. But before speaking, she left the
room to reflect.
When she returned, she was grounded in her intentions to be nonreactive, to seek out clear
understanding, and to not be attached to the outcome. This allowed her to participate in the
meeting in a calm, effective manner, saying her truth. Surprisingly, the group came to a
conclusion that, although it was not what she thought should happen, was at least something
she could live with. "Sometimes I remember to work with my intentions," she told me, "but
then at other times, I just seem to develop amnesia and completely forget the whole idea for
weeks at a time. It's like I had never been exposed to the teaching. I mean, there is nothing in
my mind but my goals. I don't even consider my intention." I assured her that it is like this for
almost everyone. It takes a long time to make right intention a regular part of your life.
At times, the benefits of acting from your intentions can seem so clear and obvious that you
vow, "I'm going to live this way from now on." Then you get lost or overwhelmed and
conclude that it is more than you can do. Such emotional reactions, while understandable,
miss the point. If you make right intention a goal, you are grasping at spiritual materialism.
Right intention is simply about coming home to yourself. It is a practice of aligning with the
deepest part of yourself while surrendering to the reality that you often get lost in your
wanting mind.
There are only two things you are responsible for in this practice: Throughout each day, ask
yourself if you are being true to your deepest intentions. If you're not, start doing so
immediately, as best as you're able. The outcome of your inquiry and effort may seem modest
at first. But be assured, each time you start over by reconnecting to your intention, you are
taking one more step toward finding your own authenticity and freedom. In that moment, you
are remembering yourself and grounding your life in your heart's intention. You are living the
noble life of the Buddha's teachings.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on November 23, 2020, 11:29:41 AM
That's very wise information, Lighter, and it certainly would apply to any time at all I should spend with M. Wrestling with that question right now.

I am not looking to follow a particular meditative or religious or prescribed spiritual practice no matter what its label or tradition is. But I can still mine this article for its wonderful nuggets of wisdom and help, and really appreciate your intention (!) in sharing it.

Because you (and he) are so right; the reactivity is the thing. I think I am very defensive and scared in various situations and do react or retreat rather than remain at peace inside the situation regardless. (He had a great line about that). My reactivity is the only one I can work on. I am at such a tentative point with it presently that it may be best not to test it at all, or it could be that learning how to "be friends" with M could wind up as a strengthening and maturing thing for me. I have my doubts but if I'm learning from what's happening nothing is wasted.

Thanks for this, Lighter.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on December 01, 2020, 06:52:10 AM
Lighter, I seem to have missed a lot of posts on this thread, I'm not sure how!  There's so much in this that rang a bell with me.

Tupp:

I stored things at my Dad's, so there were painful jabs while dealing with them.  Feelings if being.....well....feelings you can imagine being dragged through threatening systems by PD people doing all they can to destroy you while focusing painfully on your children to leverage and do trauma....and what was lost while defending and eventually counter attacking, which isn't in my normal character.....what it all cost my children, nieces and nephew.

Yes, not my normal character is just how I feel about my own situation as well.  So revealing and such a good way to put it.  I'm a lover, not a fighter!  I just wanted to get on with my life - raise my baby, go back to work, meet a nice man, buy a little house, maybe have a holiday or two!  I never dreamt I'd spend fifteen years battling my way through paper led battles and layers of deceit and injustice.  But you can't not do it?  The kids will suffer if you don't fight back; I found that hard to get my head round because I'd rather have walked away.  But that option wasn't available.

THAT was tough, then came the home movies with shift in perspective.  Turning away from a closed door of joy was how it felt....and I realized how attached I've been to the loss.  I realized I don't want to manufacture that now very familiar dynamic in the present.....it was an emotional release....like a hand releasing something hot.  A reaction....not a response, which is weird to BE reactive, suddenly, in a healthy way!  Maybe for the first time, and bc of all the information taking root and space....crowding out old habits and unconscious beliefs.

Yes, attached to the sense of loss had me nodding.  And I've found it very hard to move away from 'what my mum did to me' to focusing back on her, her awful childhood, her loveless, colourless marriages, her endless sacrifice of herself and her drinking in order to cope with it all.  But I feel more able now to see her as a damaged person, rather than as my mum?  Or as I wish my mum could have been?  Is that the way you feel with your dad now?

Honestly, mining the depths of unconscious beliefs is a layer of work moving things forward in jerks and spasms, feels like, IME, but.... that's part of moving forward and inhabiting new space....not leaving any major layers of habit and understanding unseat with and behind, holding back, dragging behind, clawing and struggling....taking focus back, rattling and creating distraction I couldn't identify before but now tend to and try very hard to process and move into historic files with intention.

I feel I'm not at all done, but now have basic tools benefiting my style and ability to cope....to expand my window of resilience, as my T says.

Writing that out.....I feel very keenly the years of frustration and confusion when feeling centered and in the zone went away.

Yes, I find I feel very miffed when someone or something pops my bubble now.  I like being able to go through my day without having to battle my own mind (or my nervous system kicking off or some trigger or other causing a panic attack).  It's nice to be in that zone and unpleasant when it dissipates.

I have such compassion for myself and inability to just FIX it.  The more I tried to think my way out, the harder it was.

I am so glad you have compassion for yourself and everything you've been through/are going through ((((Lighter)))))

I did collect useful information helping me understand and make sense of the therapy sessions, which I don't think I would have, otherwise.

I could be wrong, of course.  Dropping expectation is a default now, not just a fleeting comfort during crisis and terrifying threats I couldn't control.

I think I believe all will be well, all the time now, rather than believe or struggle to believe, bc I'm stuck in my limbic system too long, not understanding why or how to get OUT if I can just remember to breathe and get very curious...things start falling into place, like dominoes.  Feeling better begins dropping into place and new unconscious belief systems begin organizing , shifting, building and finally taking up residence without creating resistance and persistence of the old, if that makes sense.

Not only levels to notice and attend to, but ways to attend to help the process, rather than force and extend, with more frustration and judgment popping up, which I remember keenly suffering through.

THAT has largely been extinguished, as of now.  I AM kind to myself. 
I DO stop shame and guilt before it gets inside.
I don't judge...and that's key.  Its6also a work in progress.  So.etimes I have to remember, backtrack and SEE the situation without reactive anger.....and I do try.  I think I mostly succeed now, and it's an amazing lesson if I don't.  I compare and notice how each feeeeels, so different.

Again, a small release of emotionally dropping something dangerous and hot.

Dropping something dangerous and hot feels like exactly the right description.  It makes no sense to keep carrying it, right?

Maybe the real shift is understanding how detrimental old habits truly are....believing....internalizing and processing fully so all the reward evaporates and leaves a void where new defaults are primed to....slide into place.  The old default patterns fully processed and moved into historic files with a resounding slam.

Maybe.  Not sure.  Writing that last part doesn't feel as solid or known and understood, frankly, but I suspect that's the case.

It makes sense to me, Lighter.  I was doing a meditation this morning in which she focuses on choosing  new time line.  The theme is that you release your old time line as it no longer suits you; you've learnt the lessons you needed and you can take them into the time line you choose for yourself.  She refers to changing from surviving to creating and I think that's so true.  Such a big difference between getting through the day and enjoying and savouring the day.  I'm hoping for much more of the latter is coming your way now (probably with lots of moss!  Lol xx

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 01, 2020, 09:44:13 PM
Tupp:

 I have managed to see my parents as wounded children....humans....not flawed parents only.  It really brought serenity around those relationships for me.  I was at the lake recently....after a big storm, and the day after was sunny and warm and very windy.  Really beautiful.  I saw Dad's house and land and the lake through his eyes and...
this is a little odd, but I wished he was there, looking with me.  I took what remains of his ashes and threw them into the wind....they went so high!  It felt like he was happy and free of the room he'd spent the last21 years if his life.....not caring about his dream of a farm.  It was poignant and uplifting.

I've had a couple major shifts.  Mostly being very mindful about gratitude and the numbers 555, 1111 and 440 are coming up over and over for me since.  I grasp concepts more easily.  I SEE more meaning in things I couldn't understand befire.

I'll write more about it when I figure out this wireless keyboard.

In the meantime, I'm very busy with big projects and my girls are doing ok.

Lots of traveling back and forth to lake and home this week, so not posting as much.

Will update soon: )

 Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on December 06, 2020, 04:36:05 AM
Tupp:

 I have managed to see my parents as wounded children....humans....not flawed parents only.  It really brought serenity around those relationships for me.  I was at the lake recently....after a big storm, and the day after was sunny and warm and very windy.  Really beautiful.  I saw Dad's house and land and the lake through his eyes and...
this is a little odd, but I wished he was there, looking with me.  I took what remains of his ashes and threw them into the wind....they went so high!  It felt like he was happy and free of the room he'd spent the last21 years if his life.....not caring about his dream of a farm.  It was poignant and uplifting.

I've had a couple major shifts.  Mostly being very mindful about gratitude and the numbers 555, 1111 and 440 are coming up over and over for me since.  I grasp concepts more easily.  I SEE more meaning in things I couldn't understand befire.

I'll write more about it when I figure out this wireless keyboard.

In the meantime, I'm very busy with big projects and my girls are doing ok.

Lots of traveling back and forth to lake and home this week, so not posting as much.

Will update soon: )

 Lighter

I'm getting that way with my mum, Lighter, not my step-dad although to be honest I've not put any effort into the way I feel about him.  But I'm starting to see my mum more as someone who is very damaged herself rather than as someone who damaged me.  That is in part because I've had no contact with her for such a long time; I don't know that I'd maintain that thought if she pulls any of her stunts again.  But for now it feels easier.

I did do a meditation this morning; I'm finding some of these very visual in my own mind now.  In this one it's suggested that you cut karmic ties and gather up the parts of yourself that were left elsewhere during trauma.  I'm not massively into the concept of karma but I find the notion of the meditation helpful and soothing.  I imagined my mum giving me back my broken heart, my dad returning my little Tupp soul to me that I feel he took when he died, and my step-dad giving me back my body as something beautiful and sensual to love and enjoy.  I feel like he took that from me with the abuse.  I don't know why those sort of things make me feel better but they do, so I'm going to keep doing them.  I think as I'm getting older I'm seeing how much society changes in relatively short spaces of time and understanding better how disconcerting it is if you're not part of the new wave of seeing things differently.  I can see how deeply embedded in my mum 'love and honour your husband' was, however badly he behaved, and I feel very grateful that I've not got myself into a corner with that as well.  Just feels like less blame and more acceptance.

I hope the projects are all going well!  And that things are ticking along okay xx xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 07, 2020, 02:20:26 AM
Projects all going swell, Tupp.

Lots of balls in the air.  Steamed 4 rooms of wallpaper off.  Cleaned cabinet faces. Started on floors.  The dishwasher and icemaker are working again, bc my brother is super competent that way.

I run home tomorrow, youngest DD has a dental appt Monday, then pack a 26 foot truck and roll back here with 2 movers.

I loved reading about your meditation.  Taking back the pieces of yourself sounds necessary, useful and healing to me.

And.....
I'm glad I'm not stuck in a terrible marriage to an unhealthy man too, ((Tupp.))

I'm very grateful too.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on December 07, 2020, 11:02:53 AM
Are you moving Lighter? Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 07, 2020, 11:05:54 PM
Nope, Amber.  Trying to clean and paint bath and bedrooms at father's lake house before Christmas.  Picked up 2 sofas, 2 loveseat and 2 chairs.....beautiful leather and wood....used....worth the 5 hour drive in rented truck.  Dibs and I will talk about the property's future....maybe convert into a 8 bedroom, 8 bath, 2 half bath hotel/ event space with chapel and reception hall....petting zoo!  We all agree on the petting zoo with tiny goats and bunnies; )  Maybe put in dry dock storage and a community dock and small marina on the lake.....large fire pit with seating.

The area doesn't have large properties allowing parties and noise past a certain hour.  Most in communities with rules.

I'll be trucking basement cabinets there Wednesday from the local Habitat for humanity store.  2 hour drive in a 26' truck.
Loading carefully is a concern, of course.  I hired 2 movers to help. Beautiful solid cherry with warped old world glass....bubbles and all.  Looks great and distinguished.  Tomorrow I label them, and finalize design plan.  Have to order appliances.  I'd be excited if I weren't so sleepy.  Really missing my girls.  Nice to cook and dance with them tonight.

Hands have a few pesky cuts and burns....takes a bit of fun out of being in the kitchen, ime.

Nite.

Lighter







Considering turning it into a hotel property with reception gall, chapel and...
best of all...
A Petting zoo!  That's the one thing all siblings have a clear vision on...tiny goats, rabbits and maybe donkeys.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on December 08, 2020, 12:56:03 PM
God that sounds amazing, Lighter - especially the pets!  You have been working hard, as always.  It will be nice if all of that is done before Christmas.  The furniture sounds lovely as well xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on December 08, 2020, 04:00:14 PM
Lighter,
I'm staggered by your appetite for complex, challenging real estate projects. But sure you can do these and enjoy it a great deal all the while. When one can, thinking big must really be fun.

I think the fears and anxieties and complexities you have expressed over your island B&B left me my surprised by this latest venture.

But it's at least only two hours away! No boats or airplanes required. Hope it goes well and is overall joyful and satisfying for you, despite the inevitable detours and glitches.

Do I understand right that you inherited this property from your stepfather?

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 10, 2020, 12:26:36 PM
Hops:

My father's farm/ lake property...not sf.

I have 2 sibs with big ideas for the place....bigger than me.  I was thinking more event Center with 4 bedrooms for a bride and besties.  Sister thinking airbnb with top floor separated from bottom floor with ability to open up.

My brother surprised me with hotel/ marina/ chapel/pool reception hall separate from house, which looks like a lodge.

The place needs to produce income or be sold.  That's a fact.

I'm not sure what form that takes, but we'll be discussing it over Christmas.

We packed, trucked and unloaded a 26' truck yesterday.....included 2 hours driving each way.  Movers returned truck and I stayed at the lake.

I'm headed to Home Depot for floor stripper, sheetrock mud and paint.  Carpet cleaner might show.  If I strip wax off brick pavers, his machine can steam them into like new condition.

I'm starving so will get a bite in town.

I realize....I have energy and the will to do this work.  It's bringing us closer....esp little brother.  Lots of processing taking place.  Getting to know each other...moving past old ideas of who we were to each other.

I'm feeling solid IN my body...at home.  Calm.  Safe.  Reactivity happens but it's easier to see and deal with.

I'm happy.  Kids are grown and smart and funny and emotionally intelligent.  I have zero regrets about raising them up as my priority.....would change very little.  Did my very best.  I forgive myself for the bobbles.

Youngest DD graduates this year.  I'm stepping into a new chapter...and it feels very mindful....very right.

Most walking is falling forward.  I don't feel that way.  This is kissing the earth, mindfully stepping meditation.

And I've been stretching and feeling happy in self care.  It's being present in the moment....I think.  A shift I'm sometimes aware of....but it's feeling more natural. 

I had guest scheduled into the island cottage, but they cancelled.....Covid timing seems to have shut that Airbnb plan down tight.  Will put it on the market and enjoy it as much as we can.  Maybe put a seawall in with my own hands....that would feel right, if I can figure it out.  I can hire trusted and very strong helpers.  Will see.  I feel like so many possibilities will open up....and I'll know what to choose.

Trusting myself....my instincts is where I live now.  I'm home: )

Miss you guys.  Will be back more often when the lake house and my home is in order.  I'm editing and simplifying.  It fwels like the river spirit scene from the movie Spirited Away.  All the junk and trapped stuff flowing out.

Lighter











Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on December 10, 2020, 10:36:45 PM
This is beautiful, Lighter:

Quote
I realize....I have energy and the will to do this work.  It's bringing us closer....esp little brother.  Lots of processing taking place.  Getting to know each other...moving past old ideas of who we were to each other.

I'm feeling solid IN my body...at home.  Calm.  Safe.  Reactivity happens but it's easier to see and deal with.

I'm happy.

So glad to read it.
And I hope my temporary slowdown isn't contagious.
I still NEEEEEED and LOOOOOOOVE this Board and all within it.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 12, 2020, 01:34:48 PM
Hops:

You do what you need to do....self care is good and right to prioritize.

It's ok. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on December 12, 2020, 01:43:52 PM
Reading your post about the work on the house, Lighter, options for the beach house, girls now women with their own lives, options, futures ahead of them - it feels like the work on you has coincided with them not needing you around so much and then tied in with the settling up of these estates/past lives/ family ties and so on.  It just reads like it's all kind of happened in the right way at the right time and in the right order?  It's lovely to read of you being in your own motion, trusting yourself, building better relationships with siblings and letting go of old habits and patterns, whilst watching girls spread their wings and flourish.  Wow.  What an amazing time and so lovely to read that so much is going on xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 14, 2020, 08:13:29 AM
Well, Hops....
I wonder how much IS being needed less NY children and making decisions on properties.  The island cottage is going on the market....
::shudder::
What fresh hell that will be.  Bahamas not user friendly.  Not at all.

I think it's less stress in me brain pan....at least likely. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on December 14, 2020, 09:27:47 AM
Here's to less stress and no more shuddering, Lighter.
Hope it goes smoothly...or at least goes. Goes!

I love this line, Tupp, borrowing it:

Quote
being in your own motion

(Assonance makes everything better.)

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 18, 2020, 03:22:02 PM
I feel hung over from 3 days dealings a likely meth addict.  Tedious, boring work, but the first carpet cleaner stood me up 3 times.  My expectation to get house ready for Christmas got the better of me.

The bright spot is, I found 2 hard workers through the meth addict.  They clean the way I do. 

To clarify....I called a reputable company with good reviews.  The meth addict DD is answering her debilitated father's phone (owner operator who built the company for 35 years.) A catastrophic stroke put him in unexpected early retirement.  DD is opportunistic, with zero ability.  Really sad, truthfully, bc the older DD could run that business, but family punishing her being
gay.

Farm house coming along beautifully.  Furniture ready to be placed.  Brother has two new mattress boxsprings figured out.  So glad about that.

I've been wrapping little faux pine tree bases in burlap with old pillow stuffing....updated, very charming, imo.

Oldest DD has a baby grand piano at the farm.  I had it serviced and mostly it's in fine shape.  There was kid stuff keeping some hammers from striking, so better news than suspected.

If I can install 1 new toilet, paint 8 rooms, decorate for Christmas, place furniture and edit house another 5 or so hours....Ill be laughing; )

Lighter

Lighter


Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on December 20, 2020, 08:16:41 AM
It sounds like it's coming together, Lighter, albeit with a lot of hard work and dealing with many things along the way!  I'm sure it will be amazing once it's all finished.  Are you spending Christmas there or back at home again? xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on December 20, 2020, 12:22:34 PM
Christmas at home with my girls, Tupp.  Quiet.  Shopping for a little tree with youngest DD today.

Will travel to lake on 26th and bring the tree with.  Maybe find space and time to bake cookies and make caramels.  Not sure when, but it'll happen in its to.e.

Everything flowing lately.  I stopped fighting and just gave in to trusting.  When anxiety pops up, I put it back down and know I'll make the right choice if I honor myself.  I'm decluttering like crazy, cleaning, keeping things I love.  Will be harder to go through 3 generations of photos and things, but that's coming up.

It's a dance when other people are involved, I will say that.  Honoring myself, and skipping reactivity when dealing with otherss.  Honestly, it's exhilarating if I'm being honest.  Like I popped up above the clouds....or at the surface of the ocean, but UP above old patterns and habits.....they dropped away, are dropping away.

Really good stuff. 

Lighter
P.S.  Good music, black bag for throw a ways, clear bags for keepers....Im cleaning, editing and dancing in the zone, ladies!

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on December 20, 2020, 01:50:59 PM
Aw, it sounds lovely, LIghter.  I'm really glad you can still stay in the zone even while dealing with memories and the logistics of these big projects.  Quiet Christmases are awesome :)  Giving in to trust is amazing when it's been so hard (dangerous) to trust for so long.  I'm keeping fingers crossed that 2021 is going to be amazing for you :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 01, 2021, 11:12:07 PM
My sister invited Ohio cousins for Christmas.

Sister always invites them.

They came once, but always say NO since.

THIS year one cousin said yes, but no one thought they'd really show.

4 hours into their road trip they texted.

My youngest had a near panic attack, bc she was already struggling with Christmas gathering with my brother, sister and their families, but she made peace with those risks....no one wearing masks, not everyone tested.  Depending on the time of day I'm more or less concerned about the risks and real fear.

Long story short, DD needed Ohio cousins to go back home, and they did.  Their dd's mental health is a concern.....my youngest really struggles with Covid concerns and isolation, online learning, etc.  My cousin understood....I think her husband felt otherwise, which I get.  Of course, I do.  It was terrible.

My sister sent a text and I talked to cousin a minute later.  Cousin's husband texted my brother and brother verbally came at me in an angry way.  I asked him not to talk to me like that.

My brother walked out on Christmas the next morning, too upset to speak.  When I was figuring out meal plans and shopping, brother texted very upset...he was unable to be near me, my youngest DD or my sister. 

He texted I didn't know what I'd done, which was a reference to what he believes is my purposely raising dems. 

What I actually did was raise daughters capable of critical thinking, but what's really hurtful is my brother's disgust and refusal to hear my dds fear and voice.

It's, for brother, all tied into China and the dems unleashing the virus to stop Trump being elected, AND the election was stole, AND the truth will come out.

It's politics for him, and he's taken my dd's fear and turned it into a political statement, which it is not for her.

Brother said my DD and I should have left, so cousin could come, but my sister is staying after Christmas with me.....she would have had to go, and her DD and husband would have left too.....so my cousin could come.  Cousin had Covid, lots of people and friends have Covid now....it made no sense to me.

Still, my brother so upset.....
So upset....
His kids didn't get to see my niece, who drive in from Florida after taking a Covid test, or my oldest DD, who did nothing to him, or my BIL, who flew in from Canada....innicent btstanders in this.

So upset....seeing my face/youngestdd's face or my sister's, bc she texted didn't call my cousin, he boycotted Christmas and took his children with him.  No homemade pies and games with cousins.  No big traditional  turkey feast and cookie decorating.  All the " kids" are 18 or older, but still.....theres been so much trauma in all their lives....having a family Christmas in Granpa's clean lake house seemed so very important to me.

It feels like brother wanted to upset the innocents as much as punish and avoid the guilty parties.....feels like.

This was what my ASPD h would have labeled expanding his campaign of terrorism....involving the " innocents."

I'm not saying my brother did that on purpose.  I'm saying it feels familiar and my cousin and her husband are now triplemortified our family is fighting.  And we aren't really fighting.  It's texts....and unsaid " what I've done" that I'm not aware of......politics.

I'm doubly sad bc brother worked very hard, along with me, to get our father's house clean and ready for this joyful gathering.

And there was not.  I'm not even sure my BIL understands my brother is boycotting the family gathering....we cook, play games, chat, dance, watch old family movies and do our best to stay in the moment. But...there was supposed to be a big bonfire with my brother...fried turkey...more hunting for the boys....and my brother's presence, and that if his kids, is sometimes impossible to.....not notice.

And what does it mean?  Is he going NC for good? 

And...what would that mean?

Lighter



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 01, 2021, 11:24:09 PM
One of the things I've noticed.....is I'm really present with my girls when I'm with them in recent months.

I realize I'm taking my own advice to other single parents fending off rekentless PD attacks and violations through the years.  Learning that relaxing leads to terror and catching up in the PD game we have to play....while people around us wonder why we're so preoccupied and paranoid...we're simply standing watch, keeping guard....trying to make our children and selves, safe.

That's very sad for me, but what it was....is no longer.

Now, being present with my girls is what it was in 2005...safe and all I see when I'm with them.  All I feel.

The hyperawareness left in T sessions....filed away.  Finished.

And so.....life is....gratitude.  Lots of gratitude. And the ability to see things I lost sight of.

Like getting my peripheral vision back, it's just here.  I didn't notice how empty those spaces were bc my nose was against the glass.  A little distance provides perspective, but there's no regret at the loss...
Only gratitude for what I have now.

This us new....the absence of regret and anger, which is really sadness.

I'm not saying my nervous system is bullet proof now.  I'm saying it's able to identify reactivity and deal with it more quickly as I practice.

I'm saying I'm doing a lot of practicing lately.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on January 02, 2021, 05:24:55 AM
I'm so sorry, Lighter, that all of that blew up and the lovely Christmas planning didn't go as well as was hoped.  I'm hoping that, given time, everyone calms down a bit and can start to see the others' point of view more.  No right or wrong, just people, stressed and anxious, for different reasons, at the end of a year that I think most have found to be challenging, to say the least.  I think unfortunately it's one of those times where going with the flow just doesn't work for everyone and possibly a bit of time and space for everyone now is what's needed.  Hopefully over time everyone will calm down a bit and conversations can be had (or not, depending on how it goes!).  And things will settle into place again.  I hope you were able to have a bit of a nice time even with all of that going on xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 02, 2021, 09:55:07 AM
We had a nice time, Tupp.  I think the hardest moments were the afternoon and evening brother shared his plan to pull himself and family out of Christmas.  Once the shock wire off...the damage to Ohio cousin, oldest DD and BIL, who traveled here to have Christmas with us even as his mother struggles with Alzheimer's.....was the difficult part.....for me. 

The codependence stuff....wanting everyone to be ok, even as brother, who should care about those things too...about giving his grown children some normalcy, as much as they can have....normalcy.  His DD has been directed to hate and punish brother's gf....her mother's ongoing mission in the family, despite her own happiness and apparent joyful relationship with a man who lives her. 

Feelings aren't right or wrong....
I get that....they just are.

It's how adult parents choose to execute their feelings....when they impact children.  All our kids are used to it, frankly.  Grew up with it. Suffered it.

I really thought we'd give them pure unselfish joy this year.  Comfort food.  Laughter. 

Nope.  Why shouldn't this year be normal and besmirched?  Expectations and acceptance all swirled up.  I've released expectation and simplified my thoughts.  I feel better now, but oldest DD feels robbed and betrayed, which might be my brother's intention.  Maybe not.  I see the wounded child in him too....I feel the sting and disorienting oppression of a man's punishment of women they can't control too. 

Oldest DD disagrees with brother's opinion I've installed democratic political views.  She feels something was uninstalled in children raised to hold political beliefs of their parents.....critical thinking skills.

And I'll never punish people for their truth, even as I shield myself.  Punishments never made sense in a family.  No matter how bad things get....the innocents shouldn't be pawns, or injured.  My girls lost so much....a father, grandfather, aunts, uncles and cousins....simetimes on both sides.  My brother's wife withheld niece and nephew when I corrected my niece on something SIL installed in her head and sent her for a visit...mit was to do with my brother and earning power and then SIL was making empty legal threats via texts, bc her DD shared what so said, very confused.  The threat to keep niece and nephew from us was carried out, however.  Very unnerving. Super SIL's way if navigating her world, but not my brother's.

So....is he aware?  Is that what he intended?  Does the family have to choose between us?  My father was all about forcing those kinds of choices.  My mother had a bit of that.....mostly for self protection, but a bit punitive also.

I just thought we could do something else.  I thought we were smarter than that.

It's pricessing like another death, for me.  Brother is smart, but wounded from years of marriage to likely BLPD wife....fleas?

One last thing....my sister and I try to include the Ohio cousins.  We invite, plan and attend the functions.  I don't understand my brother forcing a " choice" between cousins abd his sisters.  Feelings, I know.  Just what they are.

Ohio cousins are ok.  Will stay connected, no matter....after Covid will come together again.

His choices are baffling, punitive, seemingly intended to harm in ripples....I can't imagine he's wholly unaware, though he's been rather cryptic about intentions....outside avoiding just me, my sister and youngest DD as his only intention.

I'm not talking about this much in the family, bc....lots if mommy spirit business with my sister.  Just keeping up with cooking and cleaning....cookies and turkey dinner, with all the toxins, are next.

I realize there's joy in this ritual.....nit just codependent mindless DOING.  I'm creating and experiencing joy in my moments.

I'm breathing my way clear, over and over.

My moss is beautiful and vivid green after the snow and teen temps.

I have a bath poured.  More editing and organizing at home, before returning to lake with oldest DD.

Even if it's not ok...it's ok.  Where there's pain...is there always growth?  I think I'm raising Amazon's, even if my intentions and actions were to shield and protect...the reality has been....I couldn't and they weren't.

This is another deep wounding....familial.  Not yet scathing, but maybe in time, it will be.

I think I might vomit if my BIL realizes what's really going on.  My brother asking him to choose him or his wife and daughter seems...so....what would that be, to my brother? What does he think this means to his children, who have very limited extended family contact, as is.

I have to stop....
 SOOOPHing engagement commencing.

Where does extending empathy and seeing from other people's pov become unpriductive?  When we neeeed a certain outcome.

::Releasing expectation::

Turning back to the joy in front of me.

Lighter




Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on January 02, 2021, 11:09:45 AM
I'm so sorry it went that way, Lighter. It sounds as though you have a clear view of the inherited, punitive pattern. If only understanding the origins of dysfunction meant we could prevent or reverse it in others.

So you can only find peace within yourself, while accepting what's out of your control. It sounds as though you're doing the right things to re-anchor that peace.

But having a family blowup, so soon after you'd been cooperating with your brother so happily on the big lake property plans....must make it extra painful.

I've almost reached the point where I never want to fantasize about anything at all.

I hope this corrects quickly but even if it doesn't, will quote a sage for you:
"It's okay, even when it's not okay."

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 02, 2021, 11:27:13 AM
Thanks, Hops.  I hope it's a bobble and not a permanent rift too.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on January 02, 2021, 11:56:57 AM
(((((((((((Lighter)))))))))))))))))  I'm so sorry.  I can just imagine you bustling around, making the house nice, cooking delicious food, planning games and activities, doing all you can to create those nice memories that we all want to have when we look back on certain times.  And you being you, including everyone, making sure everyone's okay, being very willing and able to let certain things slide and/or not become an issue because, it's Christmas, and it doesn't matter who thinks what or votes for whom or whether or not everyone feels the same about every issue.  And I can see other people - not doing that, because their own dynamics, whatever they are, are just more important and they can't put things to one side just for a few days.  And they have to circle other people on their side as well.  It's such a shame.

Whatever your brother's intentions were, I hope things do calm down with him, even if only for the sake of all the cousins so that they can do those family events from time to time without big rows erupting.  I know my own mum worked really hard to stop my sister and I having contact and/or a relationship with any of our extended family - all part of the control issue.  Maybe it's that with him, it's so hard to know what the motivation is for different people's behaviour (and yep, I think often there's a lack of self awareness or a feeling that people can feel the way they feel and still get along okay for a few hours or days).  I'm glad there were enjoyable bits as well and I do hope there is some settling down, even if it just means the adult kids can catch up together from time to time.  Families!  They're hard work lol xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 02, 2021, 02:12:30 PM
I stripped beds and dud laundry while practicing loving kindness meditations...short and focused on myself, then brother.

I so want him happy and safe.  I don't think he feels sadexat all right NIW.  I do think he's connecting to his children through Covid.  That's a very happy thing, even with his ex wife's consistent sabotage.  How very tired my brother must be after 20 years of it.

So, that's been my answer for now.  Picturing brother joyful with his children and life, with gratitude he's in my life.

Releasing expectation helped.

Ending judgment helped more.

Focusing on curiosity.....I'm often surprised by my brother abd his reactions.  In goodcways, if I'm being honest.  He tends to process angry, then settle and make changes bringing positive impacts on how we relate.

I'm enjoying feeling empty right now....a little hungry that is.  Oldest DD and I picked up cucumbers, carrots, 2 heads of lettuce and avocados to make lettuce wraps with peanut sauce last night.  I had a light soup today.  My body is at ease, head to toe.  I have deep gratitude and it really contributes to working on the car my father's caretaker drove for years....I now have back.

After cleaning the house, or the worst of it, the deep dirt in the car was really bugging me, mostly bc I didn't have a moment to a dress it, and bc the lack of care is so apparent.

I think there's some shame in there, but I'm no longer muttering things like " boogered up" and am enjoying the deep satisfaction of making really grubby things very clean.

Not sure what shifted.  Action or perspective, likely both.

Caretaker has phoned twice and shown up at the lake house once while I was gone.  She takes something every time she shows up.  I realize I'm ready for her to stop.  I'm ready for her to be well and happy somewhere else, not near me.

Mostly bc of past betrayals, which, when I think of it, were consistent and not in her best interests.  I think she knew I valued her mission, and would support her and it no matter what she did to me.

In this moment I feel I've been consistent, kind and loving, despite her puzzling behavior.

I'm glad I don't have to figure it out or explain it to anyone.  I had some upset over this decision, but there's peace now.  I'll call her after moving through some living kindness practice focused on her.  Will be particularly focused on it as I continue cleaning the car.

Not neeeding her to understand my POV is coming into focus.  Not needing others to understand is too.  My sorting it out is enough, blessedly.

It's being enough.  It's requiring my own approval....no one else's to feel ok.

It feels like everything is ok, in this moment.

Tupp....what you said about limiting chaos in your own life really struck home for me.  I didn't do that only to let everyone else drag theirs into my life, and I have seriously curtailed opportunity for others to create drama. 

I'm going to explore what drama I feel pressing in and changing how I relate to it.  How I allow it to act on me, in my life, etc.

That felt amazing to tap out!  The realization I have power over so much in my life.  I'm not a victim, or at the mercy of anyone right now.  That's over if it was ever true...done.

I require my approval.  It feels like letting go of a stupid trap.....in martial Arts there are traps we think we can't escape, but can....easily, if we know how.  Like opening a hand and letting the rope go.....it stops burning.

Nose.
Off.
The.
Pebble.

See the field.

That is SO helpful in every way.

Lighter


Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on January 03, 2021, 04:47:50 AM
((((((((Lighter)))))))))  It's so good to read that the things that come up just don't floor you - you can breathe, meditate, think your way through them and it's okay.  Will never be perfect - I think that's been a tough one for me to chew on?  But it's okay.  You can manage yourself and hope others can blend in with that, but also release them if it's just not possible to be involved.  That's just how it has to be sometimes, I think.  Requiring your own approval - yes, definitely that, but also hard to do sometimes!  I remember a T, years ago, telling me it only mattered what I thought about what I was doing.  Other people's opinions weren't important.  It's hard to let go of that when decades of your life have been devoted to other people and what they thought.  Tough lessons to learn.  But so useful.  And yes to limiting chaos.  Peace, happiness, harmony.  We can't have it all the time, I don't think, but it's certainly something to aim for most of the time.  Happy 2021, Lighter xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on January 03, 2021, 10:10:56 AM
Add me to the chorus of appreciation for

"I require my own approval!"

A good one for the mini-mantra collection!

HNY hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 08, 2021, 07:14:29 PM
Thanks, Tupp and Hops:

Once I adjusted my expectations and let go of outcome things became joyful at Christmas again.

I still mumble under my breath occasionally, about the layered....see.

I want to write filth, but I also want to accept it is what it is, then get joyful about the cleaning, which happens and is possible.  It comes and goes.  I don't want to be negative about dad's caretaker letting dogs use the upstairs of the whole house as a per pad for 2 dogs.  It helps nothing, and is upsetting to me.....changes nothing to judge and feel frustrated.

I have an easier time dealing with my little brother, bc I absolutely don't want to be told what to do.  Backing off him, accepting he's upset.....respecting his choices is easy once I give up expectations.

I'm nicer to myself when I catch myself being negative....just bring it back on track and keep going.  Like training martial Arts....fill the negative space with learning and curiosity.  Focusing on failure, itself, is pointless.  Noting it, then returning to center, feels very productive to me.

We had snow this morning.  Not the big dump we expected, but it was beautiful.  The kids made 7 batches of cookie dough last night.  They're icing them now, after doing box it outs and baking for hours.  It's magical and I can't wait to take neighbor's little treat bags. 

We made chocolate chip cookies and Russian tea cookies too, all he, so there's something for everyone.

My buddy, with Covid, said his wife tested negative and son hasn't received his results yet.

My mechanic, in GA, recovered after receiving the antibody shot?  I think that's what he said.  It took 3 more days of difficult breathing.....he called on day 2 to say it didn't help.  The doc said to wait another day, and that happened to be when his ability to breathe freely returned.

The man who gave it to him just had flu symptoms, but his 60+ yo sister was very ill, like the mechanic.

I'd like to hire my brother's gf to sell the beach cottage, but she ghosted me when he did, so not sure.  I have another realtor company in mind....will see.

I have 3 pairs of glasses ready for pick up where dd20 works.  I'm curious how I'll feel about wearing glasses again and looking through glasses with 3 prescriptions in each lense.....all different, bc of the monovision.  I'm thinking my brain will have a bit of adjusting to do, for sure.

We've made many family meals, but I really enjoyed the spaghetti and meatballs.....just finished the leftovers yesterday myself.  People still asking for it. 

The charcuterie board was a close second, mostly bc we didn't blow the kitchen up and it was beautiful....so yummy.  My bil made negronis.....gin highballs?  Very interesting, with orange peel twists for me.  I've never had gin before....reminded me of making grab lax with Swedish friends, bc of the juniper berries. 

Lots of pies were made and consumed.  Pear cheddar pie, Apple, pumpkin....brownies....a first batch of Russian tea cookies.  We'll be ready for more austere food soon, but not quite yet.

MIL sent both dds very short notes on very cheap cards this week.  This is the first time she included youngest DD.  This us the first time she didn't blather on about money and smirky instructions to contact her, bc over 18yo....like THAT was the reason MIL has zero contact with the girls.  Like I controlled them, and kept them from her. 

See....there's a little reactivity there.  I feel the need to finish that thought.  Tap out MIL's actions are the reason the girls have nothing to do with her....and....I think I feel better, but am ready to not go down that rabbit hole any longer.

There's freedom and joy in noting that....and in knowing I have a choice.  In knowing I can put her down and turn away whenever I choose.  I'm not ready today, but sense I will be soon, and that will be the right time for me.

The same with mumbling under my breath about the.....cleaning.  It's a fresh start.  It's all good when wiggling my toes on pristine brick pavers I steamed and scrubbed many times. 

That's my update.  Things are slowing down now my BIL returned to Canada.  We made beautiful walking sticks we collected on forest walks.  We put in a toilet and shower door.  Fixed or improved the garage door tracking and painted the crud out of the worst bed and bathrooms over the holiday. 

I meant to bring the steamer and strip wallpaper in my 2 bathrooms, but left it behind.  Will go back to lake and try to finish painting while sister is here....lots to paint.

Lots of projects, but I'm leaning in happily.  Girls are all but grown and it feels like I have the space and energy to give.  I like staying busy. 

Lighter

 



Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on January 09, 2021, 06:00:10 AM
Is that scary MIL, Lighter?  The one who's caused all the problems?  If so, that's an amazing not reactive reaction you've had to her getting in touch.  Huge progress, that's so great to read.  It's funny that she still doesn't see her role in what happened.  But great that it no longer drags you back into that horrifying mess she made.

And the food!  Mmmm, your meal descriptions always make me feel so hungry!  Sounds so delicious and it's a nice way to spend time with the kids, isn't it, it's so much about nurturing and caring and it's a nice thing to do together.  All I can think about now is cookies, though :) You sound so busy up at the lake house; I hope everything that needs doing there gets done and that you can sell on the beach house without too many problems.  Sounds like a realtor who isn't family or family connected might be a good idea just now.  Keeps everything neutral and avoids 'other' issues merging in with practical decisions about the house.

And I hope that all the people you know with Covid recover well.  It really does seem to be everywhere now; I don't know anyone who hasn't had it or had someone close to them have it in these last few months.  The neighbours will really appreciate the cookies, I'm sure :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 09, 2021, 06:23:52 AM
Yup, the scary MIL is the only one left living.  I had a friendly relationship with ex h's mother.  I plopped my babies in her lap and fed her.  I remained friends with my ex.

And....it IS amazing progress to notice very little reactivity around that contact.  I'd say it was zero, but that's not entirely true, bc I didn't just put it down.  I thought about her intentions and tactics and let her pov....her story, really, touch my need for justice and truth.

It gets easier to let that go.  Acceptance sometimes seeps in slowly.  Sometimes it floods in. 

We made lots of cookies to be iced.  2 batches of icing wasn't enough to ice half.  Will make more today.

My sister and I tag teamed yesterday.  I took first shift in the kitchen.  She took the second.  I think I got the better deal.

I neeed spaghetti today.  Will pick up sauce makings when I get glasses fitted and lunch with dd20. 

I'm excited about the lake house.  Lots of things coming together quickly.  Sell or Airbnb....it's forward movement.  Walking meditation.

:: nod::

How is your editing of spaces coming along?

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on January 09, 2021, 08:21:35 AM
This is remarkable, Lighter, imo:
Quote
knowing I have a choice.  In knowing I can put her down and turn away whenever I choose.  I'm not ready today, but sense I will be soon, and that will be the right time for me.

Especially liked the last sentence, because it seems the way healing actually comes. Not when summoned, but when sensed -- this is the next thing nature does, given a chance-- and allowed and welcomed, like you're readying the space for it, and at peace with knowing it comes in its own time.

I'm glad for you. It sounds like you've achieved great trust in the process and in your capacity to receive it.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on January 09, 2021, 01:42:06 PM
Yup, the scary MIL is the only one left living.  I had a friendly relationship with ex h's mother.  I plopped my babies in her lap and fed her.  I remained friends with my ex.

And....it IS amazing progress to notice very little reactivity around that contact.  I'd say it was zero, but that's not entirely true, bc I didn't just put it down.  I thought about her intentions and tactics and let her pov....her story, really, touch my need for justice and truth.

It gets easier to let that go.  Acceptance sometimes seeps in slowly.  Sometimes it floods in. 

We made lots of cookies to be iced.  2 batches of icing wasn't enough to ice half.  Will make more today.

My sister and I tag teamed yesterday.  I took first shift in the kitchen.  She took the second.  I think I got the better deal.

I neeed spaghetti today.  Will pick up sauce makings when I get glasses fitted and lunch with dd20. 

I'm excited about the lake house.  Lots of things coming together quickly.  Sell or Airbnb....it's forward movement.  Walking meditation.

:: nod::

How is your editing of spaces coming along?

Lighter

Amazing that the reaction just isn't as strong, Lighter, especially compared to what, a year ago?  I remember the last time she got in touch it was very upsetting (understandably).  Incredible change, well done!  Sad for her and so many like her that they don't try to keep people in their lives by trying to get along with them.  She's missed out on your lovely girls with her silliness.  Her loss.  Silly woman.

Space editing is going slowly!  I'd kind of put stuff off in case we moved round about now but this new lockdown has put paid to that, I think, so I'm working through a room at a time - good clear out and declutter, then a good clean, walls washed, carpets shampooed, furniture replaced if necessary.  Son's room is first, on the decluttering stage at the moment and just trying to do one section at a time.  He's getting a lot better with giving stuff away and we've got a few bits to sell so it's going alright - will hopefully finish that next week and then start ordering furniture for him.  Not sure how to get rid of furniture at the minute; usual things like charity donations aren't set up although I'm wondering if leaving it outside for someone to collect is an option.  I can dismantle and bring downstairs in pieces.  I'll have to look into it all a bit more but we're getting there! xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 10, 2021, 02:36:05 PM
SLighterSlow movement is still movement, Tupp.  Careful.  With your shoulder, a pause would make sense, imo.

We put things on the curb here, then post curb alerts on neighborhood message boards and apps like Offer-Up.  Usually things get picked up.

I asked you if you have a nice morning ritual to start your day....on another thread.  I want something new.  Maybe a body scan stretch, or something killing many birds with one stone.  Maybe something already figured out.  Maybe can do short version of Pain Free book maintenance stretches AND body scan, meditation.

Will see.

It's sunny, blue sky's, very cold today.  The kids are doing a dress up skit to a song for my bd....sister's birthday, then cooking dinner....the boy ( niece's bf) made lovely walking sticks for us, and will lead a hike. 

I'm packaging boxes of Christmas cookies for neighbors.....we did everything late this year, but did everything.  Got lots finished at lake....it's a whirlwind on our schedule, and I realize.....its ok not to send cards, but deliver cookies on my own schedule.

The Covid + neighbor got his cookies today......he sounded terrible.  I wore a mask and stayed far away, which hurt his feelings a bit.  My sister didn't pet his dig, which further hurt him, but.....we don't want to get sick!

Good luck healing and editing in your iwn time, dear one.

I love how you're picking up duties when you're ready, and not before.  I've not perfected that, but I practicing consistently.  I know when I need to get back on track.  It's a new way of doing things.  It's so much more of what I want: )
Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 14, 2021, 08:57:57 AM
We're painting at the lake.  Had planned to pain through the weekend and put house back in order, but my brother will be here Friday so will have to leave mid job.  At least the big rooms, and bathrooms, will be coated with fresh linen gray color.

We brought a painter with huge roller....sister and I working ahead of him to dust, remove electrical plates and the heaviest furniture I've ever touched.

Forward movement, along with cabinet installer referral.......things rolling along.

Niece and her by left Monday after an amazingvevening of card playing, SO much fun.

We're nerds, I know; )

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on January 16, 2021, 04:15:04 AM
Have you and your brother spoken at all since the argument, Lighter?  I hope you still get enough work done to make a dent in it and feel like you're making progress.  Card games sound fun - being nerds is the best :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 16, 2021, 02:55:36 PM
Brother wished us a happy birthday....via email, earlier this week.  We've given him space to have and process his feelings.  Everyone should receive that space, imo.

The first real contact....face to face,  was this weekend.  Nice enough phone calls then fast paced sharing of ideas while walking the lake house together. We ate together.  He's on heavy equipment wrenching all the bushes and trees out of the ground.  Alas, the bountiful fig tree sits atop a bonfire the size of a commercial building. 

I'm afraid I ate too much....stayed up working too late......my nervous system was on high high alert.....Im not gonna lie.  I'm feeling out if sorts....brain buzzing, not in a good way.  Interesting to note it's very mild compared to what it would have been a year ago.  I'm more tired, but also more focused....I can see the entire field, which comes and goes, but mostly comes.

So, back to work sorting bedding and drapes.  The BIG edit continues. 

Lighter





Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on January 16, 2021, 03:40:49 PM
You braved the brother space, feelings about which must've been difficult to suppress while in it, Lighter. I can imagine even the most even-tempered psyche would find keeping balanced in those circumstances a challenge.

I'd say you did super well, and the tension you're feeling is the natural response of an post-trauma-affected organism to anticipated emotional threat. I'm impressed you contained it all so you two could continue to cooperate.

Well done! Very confident you'll rebalance soon.

hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on January 18, 2021, 02:43:43 AM
Brother wished us a happy birthday....via email, earlier this week.  We've given him space to have and process his feelings.  Everyone should receive that space, imo.

The first real contact....face to face,  was this weekend.  Nice enough phone calls then fast paced sharing of ideas while walking the lake house together. We ate together.  He's on heavy equipment wrenching all the bushes and trees out of the ground.  Alas, the bountiful fig tree sits atop a bonfire the size of a commercial building. 

I'm afraid I ate too much....stayed up working too late......my nervous system was on high high alert.....Im not gonna lie.  I'm feeling out if sorts....brain buzzing, not in a good way.  Interesting to note it's very mild compared to what it would have been a year ago.  I'm more tired, but also more focused....I can see the entire field, which comes and goes, but mostly comes.

So, back to work sorting bedding and drapes.  The BIG edit continues. 

Lighter

It's good that you're aware of the things that contributed to the brain buzzing, Lighter - eating too much, staying up late and so on.  It's inevitable that there will be situations that require us to step out of our optimum way of doing things and that it will have an effect but I'm sure you'll be feeling better again soon.  I'm glad you and brother were able to interact a bit and spend some time together.  One of the things I do like about myself and my sister is that we can blow up at each other but then after a bit of cooling off let it go and get on with things again.  I don't tend to have the same connections with friends to be able to withstand clashing heads.  It's one of the upsides of family, I think xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 18, 2021, 09:16:15 AM
I'm impressed with my brother's ability to express his feelings, be upset, reflect then regroup......he, so far, seems to take things on board and behave respectfully going forward.

I don't think he knows who I am, still.  The more we interact, the more we understand and learn about each other.  I do know we're very different people.

We've been texting back and forth a little bit.  It bodes well, IME.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on January 19, 2021, 07:31:29 AM
It's good, Lighter, we all blow up, none of us are perfect or impervious to what's going on around us.  Being able to regroup and get on with it again is always a good sign, I think.  And Happy Birthday from us, as well!  I think I missed that somehow :)  Hope it was a nice celebration xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 25, 2021, 10:32:58 AM
Noticing I catch myself thinking negative things very quickly.

Noticing I'm less judgy about it.... I'm kinder to myself and let it go more quickly OR simply curious about it more and more often.

Fewer dark thoughts as I move through difficult cleaning projects....like where the Phillipinos put foil on dirty lazy Susan shelves instead of cleaning them with resulting thick grime and oil and rust requiring hours if time and, as of today, final clean and oil base paint.

Typically being forced into oil paint cans is upsetting, but not today....abd it's SUCH a relief! 

And that's the second lesson at the lake house...to just let the small stuff GO.

First lesson was how quickly life passes....for us all.  KNOW that and seize every moment as precious, or not.

Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Twoapenny on January 26, 2021, 04:22:02 AM
Good lessons to keep in mind, Lighter, and easy ones to lose in the hubbub of life, I think.  It's good that you're moving through and noticing things, but not getting dragged down by it all.  The journey continues :) xx
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on January 31, 2021, 09:36:02 AM
We have house together as it can be.  Took photos, now it's time to pull it apart and prepare for quite e pensive renovations.  Counseling concrete for 3 new bathrooms in the basement will send dust everywhere.  Sheetrock dust is hard to contain too.

I'm afraid I tweaked something in my right shoulder while cutting pruned birch branches at the Botanical Garden to place in the 4 fireplaces with 3 kinds of flicker bulbs...they look amazing, btw.  We mixed them with lichen covered sticks and logs.  Very real looking, and no mess.  No heat in the warmer months100% ambiance.  When I can use my R arm again I'll cut out places to attach the old fashioned string lights and screw together easily moved fireplace bundles, in case guests want real fires in colder months.  It's fun work, but for the shoulder.  Brushing my teeth yesterday made my arm very tired.  I should tie it down, but resist.

Finding a rapid nose swab test for sister, with 3 2 -3 day turnaround for Int'l travel, is impossible to find with a guarantee.  NY neighbor, running the 50 bed hospital, pit her own lab in, finally, and pulled strings.  Test will be free, bc they have no way of charging anyone out of their system, and results back in 3 hours, guaranteed.  A miracle. Labs have shifted to vaccines....local health department test 2 days a week only now. 

I'm following my intuition, guys. It cuts out the roiling and worry.  It feels like flying up, out if toxic super glue vapors, into clean cool air. Now I'll get rid of the heaviness I remember....shifting to streamlined and easily menuevered lightness of being: )

 It feels like a trick, but it's how we should raise children, imo.  I remember my mother telling me about trusting instincts once, when I was a teenager.  I think all trust in myself was gone, by that point.

Lighter

Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on January 31, 2021, 01:04:33 PM
Love the intuition part and especially how you described it, Lighter.

Curious concern about this part, your injury, and wonder, what if....?

Quote
I should tie it down, but resist.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: sKePTiKal on February 01, 2021, 09:45:26 AM
Tiger balm & rest on that arm Lighter.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on February 03, 2021, 11:11:48 AM
I'm having a really difficult time not using the arm!  It makes me feel.....vulnerable.
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on February 03, 2021, 12:06:22 PM
Awww, Lighter. I think this is a big moment, really.
Had a feeling facing injury was maybe an inner struggle.

I'm glad you've looked at it and named it genuinely.

"Vulnerable" is a tough thing to sit with, but real. Big fat teacher. Ugh.

Maybe a Brenae Brown video would be good company right now?

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on February 05, 2021, 11:33:36 AM
Thanks, Hops. 

I'm babying the arm, if not strapping it down completely.  My sister doing the things I'd usually do, is surprisingly not bothersome. 

I'll check out the vid you suggest when in the bath: )
Lighter
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: Hopalong on February 05, 2021, 01:38:54 PM
Perfect place to watch it!

Feel better fast. Or manage in peace if it's slow...

Sending something healingish, like, dunno, infrared heat?

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
Post by: lighter on February 07, 2021, 03:40:22 PM
I drove through 3 States of snow, slush, then icy slush to arrive home about midnight feeling super happy with my little Honda CRV.  Trucks and cars were stranded and stacked up along the way....we just weaved through and kept plodding up mountains.

I woke up this morning to youngest DD statement," the pug is a curious mix of bear and pig, with a dash of gargoyle." 

We talked about the world, mostly her views, and how she feels our little family has it's own culture...lots of spontaneous dancing, movie references and laughter, happy engagement. 

I realized, yesterday, I don't turn that off when out in the world sometimes....and I think it's the, or one of the attractive "things" about us/me, in general, specific to men.  Sometimes I'm so in my head I'm puzzled, truly, at this.  Yesterday mindfulness kicked in, and I saw it with clarity.  I think people are drawn to being included...treated....with respect.....welcomed into open happy energy, NOT about physical beauty or invitation ATALL.  I'll say it again, sometimes I worry I look homeless.  I put down all lables, and didn't, in 2007.  People judging me on appearances were no longer useful to me.  Shallow, covetous, judgmental people stood out.....to be avoided....not useful any longer.  The experiment failed.  I pushed it away without realizing I'd never pick it up again....maybe I truly won't.



The guys helping me yesterday, handyman types, we're happy to be in my orbit...I admit there's warmth and pleasure in being admired and liked.  Not romantically, really, just happy surprise that I'm always moving, and using tools and measuring ahead and producing whatever's required out of my koala bag, strapped to my hip and thigh, leaving my hands free to DO.

And I chatter, like I'm with my girls, so the boys sort of join in, surprised and joyfully....we sang together for heaven's sake.  No dancing....too busy trying to beat the snow.  They were co pilots supporting the mission on that drive.....on the entire day.

So, this morning I was interpretive dancing to Abbey Parker songs, for Baby Girl Pug...when I realized I'm really happy right now.  My little family does have its own culture.  What we let in changes the chemistry.  We SEE that, together.

I'm also ready for what comes next.   Building something meaningful.  DD is overwhelmed with senior year of hs.  Not able to talk about it, but she doesn't ask me to stay home anymore....doesnt seem fearful when I talk about what comes next and starting projects and work.  She's grown now.