Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => What Helps? => Topic started by: Healing&Hopeful on November 16, 2005, 08:48:58 AM

Title: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Healing&Hopeful on November 16, 2005, 08:48:58 AM
I found a post on here http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/index.htm which I felt I could really relate to and thought I'd share.

The Children of Narcissists

Many say that narcissists' children are likely to marry narcissists. While I see where this idea comes from and have seen it happen myself, I have not observed any "co-dependence." That's a fancy word for being a glutton for punishment.

The truth is more complicated than that. Also, let us not forget that we are talking about normal people. Yes, they typically are meek, too patient, and have low self-esteem. But that does not make them sick in the head. They are also typically strong. Unlike the personality-disordered, they are not machines. They each respond to the influence of parental narcissism in his or her own way.

In fact, I bet research would find that the normal children of narcissists are more likely to never marry. This might depend on whether the narcissistic parent was father, mother, or both and on whether the child is a man or a woman.

I can hear those gears in your head grinding. Does this mean that they are likely to be homosexual? Considering all the Freudian permutations that could be at work, that doesn't seem far out to me. But I don't know of any homosexual children of narcissists. I know of one frigid narcissistic daughter of a narcissist, and I will bet the farm on another. But, I have seen nothing in the normal children of narcissists that hinted at anything but typical heterosexuality. Unless you subscribe to the bigoted myths that all married people are heterosexual, that all single people are frigid or homosexual, and that homosexuality is some mental disease.

There are, however, some other things it is pretty safe to say about the normal children of narcissists.

One is that they are likely to tolerate narcissists. When you grow up with things, you have no way of knowing that they are abnormal. You think that some people "are just like that." You're trained to tolerate it, because to do anything but is a sin. You're even brainwashed into thinking it's your fault. You have no way of knowing that everybody's home is not like yours, that you are growing up in a home headed by somebody who belongs in psyche ward.

 If you are a Baby-Boomer, you didn't even get a clue from TV. You grew up watching Father Knows Best and Leave It to Beaver. Father's role reinforced your narcissistic father's superiority and infallibility by virtue of his age, size, and sex. But since TV fathers came from a different planet than yours, the threshold for suspension of your disbelief was much higher than for other people. Too high. So these shows, which challenged everybody's ability to suspend disbelief, weren't even remotely realistic to you. Never once did they make you wonder why, unlike the TV father, your father took no interest in you, never put his arm around you, never played with you, never had anything to do with you at all. That's because you never viewed TV as a portrayal of real family life. Therefore, even TV gave you no clue that other families were different, that your daddy sucked and that you had every right to what you craved. TV today is a little better at portraying normal family life, but not much. 

Yet tolerance of narcissists is not knuckling under to them. Let's clear up the sloppy thinking that equates the two.

Nobody knows better than the normal children of narcissists that, to survive as a person, you must never let anyone own you. They protect their right to private ownership of themselves, because they know the consequences of letting others make their personal and private choices for them. Such as what to think, how to feel, what to say. They know that letting anybody treat your head as his property, to furnish as he pleases, is moral prostitution that destroys your integrity. They also know that, like any partier who takes over somebody else's house, he is probably going to trash it.

And so, though narcissists ballistically violate every right to privacy they see, thinking their own privacy extends to the outer limits of deep space, the normal children of narcissists are keenly aware of the borders of personal privacy and have fortified them. For example, one narcissist I know of ordered an employee to take the rest of the day off. This was a dirty trick that had successfully gotten other employees to falsely incriminate themselves by obeying the order. But when he tried to thus make up the mind of a narcissist's daughter, he hit a brick wall. She replied, "You can send me home if you want, and if you do I'll go. But you can't order me to take the day off. And I choose not to take the rest of the day off."

Note the willing obedience up to a sharply drawn line she would not let him cross. How do the children of narcissists get so clear about their boundaries and so solid in defense of them?

By surviving a childhood like the story of The Three Little Piggies and the Big Bad Wolf. Each little piggy's house is his person, the private property of his body and mind. Our deepest instincts compel us to not let the Big Bad Wolf just barge in as if he owns the place. Why? Because doing that to another's body is sexual rape, and doing that to another's mind is moral rape, and even little children feel violated by either act. But, unlike the other little piggies, the narcissist's child has learned that when you say no, the Big Bad Wolf huffs and puffs and tries to blow your little house down. So, this little piggy built his of brick.

Note that this is true strength, backbone, integrity, moral purity. It is not the phony strength people of swollen self-esteem think they have. To the contrary, you find it in the modest. Note also that this is responsibility for oneself claimed, not avoided. In other words, the normal children of narcissists are often more grown up than many other people are.

Another thing it is safe to say about the children of narcissists is that, from birth, they have had their self-esteem relentlessly assailed. Abused feelings are tender, sensitive feelings. As easily injured as burned skin. That is just a fact of life, not a moral fault.

So, the children of narcissists are quite sensitive to criticism. It causes them real pain, because it inflames old wounds. To avoid this pain, they are conscientious and try hard to be liked. Since they aim to please, so long as you respect their boundaries, you can easily get them to do anything they do not think is wrong or foolish. Yet they have been trained to feel that something's wrong with them if some intolerant person just can't stand them being the way they are, looking the way they look, feeling the way they feel, or thinking what they think. All this manifests itself as low self-esteem and marks them as sensitive.

Vicious attacks on sensitive feelings and low self-esteem draw far more blood than they would otherwise. So, the normal children of narcissists might as well go around wearing a target with the word VULNERABLE emblazoned on it. On seeing it, every bully in town thinks, "There is somebody I can really hurt" = "somebody I can be really powerful on."

Thus, narcissistic abuse in the home dooms them to life as a target for every bully they encounter. This is one reason why the children of narcissists do marry narcissists - not because they seek narcissistic mates, but because narcissists spot and target them as vulnerable prey. The wolf puts on sheep's clothing and sweeps her off her feet, idealizing her and showering her with affection. Till the honeymoon is over. Then Dr. Jekyll's mask comes off. She was no more likely to fall for this con artist than anybody else. Probably less likely, in fact. But narcissists target the kind of people the normal children of narcissists are.

Often a narcissistic parent targets one child, the most sensitive/vulnerable, to take the brunt of his vaunting abuse. Watching this puts the others through worse hell than his abuse of themselves does. It makes them hate bullying with such passion that they become protective. Hence, they often become altruists. They are unlikely to join everybody else in kissing up to a bully by sicking on whomever he is terrorizing them by making an example of. If the targeted child in their home takes it out on the rest of the world by becoming a narcissist himself, his brothers and sisters feel so sorry for him that they make excuses for him and take his abuse far too long.

Another thing it is safe to say about the children of narcissists is that they have a different view of marriage than other people. For example, the narcissistic son of a narcissistic mother may show no interest in marriage till she is about to die. Then he seeks a replacement for her. The narcissistic daughter of a narcissist may choose to remain single because she "wants no one to own her."

Of course, other factors that vary over time influence marital choices. For instance, half a century ago, being an "old maid" was almost unbearably shameful and made one a social outcast, excluded from social events and the community of friendships that married couples can take part in. It also meant that one would never make a decent living, achieve social stature, or own a home. Though equal rights and the high divorce rate has made society less hostile to the unmarried over time, to this day many employers don't want bachelors.

The normal children of narcissists are nonetheless more careful about marrying than other people are. They have seen nothing in marriage that anyone would want. They dream about "true love," and like most of us, find nothing that fits its description in the movies. They do very much want to avoid the suspicious and critical view society takes of the unmarried, and they want very much to fit in. They also want children. But, the daughters of a narcissistic father, for example, have seen nothing mirrored in their father's eyes for a man to love. So, they doubt professions of love and fear that a lover just wants a wife. They live in fear of a life like their mother's. This ambivalence and caution, through sheer lack of luck, sometimes lead to never finding somebody they trust enough to marry.

Sad? Yes, but not nearly as sad as women who need a man, who view themselves as worth only what they are worth to some man, and who surrender their self-respect to get one. The absence of cupidity is not a vice.

Yet another thing it is safe to say about the normal children of narcissists is that they have probably picked up bad habits in interacting with others. Outwardly, some of these bad habits appear narcissistic. Yet it is easy to tell the difference between a narcissist and a normal person. How? By simply asking him to stop it. The normal child of a narcissist will stop it. (A normal person who is not the child of a narcissist may not be so good about stopping it.) But a narcissist will do it all the more.

This section shows why you should not jump to conclusions about people. There are many more normal children of narcissists than narcissists. So, run that little test of asking him to stop it before you make any judgments.

These behaviors persist through young adulthood. They gradually disappear after the child leaves home, as he gets used to normal people and how things work in the real world.

For example, the child of a narcissist may impolitely enter a room talking to interrupt the extant conversation. He hasn't been taught that this is bad manners. To the contrary, his (dominant) narcissistic parent did that twenty times a day. Also, he has found it so hard to get attention that he feels he must hijack it.

The difference between him and a narcissist, however, is easily demonstrated. If you ask him to stop it, he takes the message deeply to heart. In fact, you will find yourself trying to make him feel less bad about it. His behavior will change. A narcissist's never does. To contrary, if you ask a narcissist to stop doing something, he does it all the more.

Again for example, the only humor he was exposed in his unhappy home was the unfunniness of sarcasm. Life with a narcissist left even his normal parent with nothing to laugh about, except - you guessed it - sarcasm. But again, if you ask him to stop it, he takes the message deeply to heart. Again you find yourself trying to make him feel less bad about it. Again his behavior changes. Whereas a narcissist's never does.

When the child of a narcissist leaves home, it takes a while for his own, natural sense of humor to germinate and grow in a new environment that is not hostile to it. The good news is that, by the time they reach their thirties, the normal children of narcissists often display a sense of humor more witty and charming than that of most other people. Perhaps because they themselves appreciate it so much.

Again for example, the child of a narcissist may not accept praise or compliments gracefully. He is unused to them! Like anything extraordinary in our world, this extraordinary event throws him off balance. He has never learned to simply say, "Thank you."

Like a narcissist, he may protest that he doesn't deserve it. But his reason for doing so is the opposite of a narcissist's. It's not because he feels it would humiliate him to say "Thank you." It's because this praise or compliment conflicts with a long history of judgments against him as being inadequate. He may suspect flattery. This goes with what I said above about the daughters of male narcissists doubting professions of love.

Here again, the difference between him and a narcissist is easily demonstrated. If the other party takes the bull by the horns in the direct approach and responds with, "Why don't you just say 'Thank you?'" or "I am not flattering you. I really mean it" the child of a narcissist ponders his behavior and changes it. A narcissist never does.

The normal parent can do much to ease her child's adaptation to the real world by watching for such behaviors and teaching him to cope with these situations in interactions with normal people. It is as easy as saying, "When somebody compliments you, just say 'Thank you.'"
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: canoe on January 20, 2006, 10:59:02 PM
I've been married to a nice guy for twenty one years and am not narcissistic, abusive or dysfunctional.   Speak for yourself, thanks.   8)
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: prettyinpink on February 09, 2006, 11:27:13 PM
Healing & Hopeful,

I can relate to this very much, and appreciate all you've shared here!!  thanks, Pip
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: moonlight52 on March 06, 2006, 06:47:48 PM
thank you h&h     i am so amazed how my n dad took the first part of my life.i quess i am just not going to give him the next half.
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: helena on March 20, 2006, 06:35:00 PM
hello, I think I live in the worst nightmare possible. My daughter is 4 months on Sunday and she has been taken to my parents home

un til the 6th or 10 th of April since I became sick of breastfeeding her. My parents are strongly narcissistical and since I have gotten

her. THey have been so mean towards me I  have never seen anything likely and they want to make me look sick in the head when

it's they who are bullying me every day I go up there to see my little girl who I adore they bully me since they are two and I am

always alon. THe father on the child is also narcissistic what I have come to understand more clearly for every day. I have asked him

to come home now that all this has happened but he is so stubborn to finish his practise on a boat. He has been away already 7

weeks now and because of that they have taken my little girl away. Every day I have to see my old parents who are so mean to me

and treats me as I am the one being stupid when they are so crzy litterally speaking. I'm startin to despair I am so happy about my

little girl she is the most beautiful baby. Now for a couple of days the boyfriend who I thouight for a while was the man in my life but

I'm seeing more clearly that he is manipulating me and knows all my weaknesses I have been putting up with his education that has

taken him 5 years we've been together since 2001 and druing that time all I wanted was children and getting married but along the

way he didn't want to marry didn't want to have children but as I moved in with him we shared all the allowances. NOw he has

almost finished and he wants to earn american dollars on a american boat. I wanted to live in France or somewhere in Europ I will try

to get a job somewhere when the baby is a little bit bigger but how in the world can I trust this man. He has been marrie dbefore

and they have a son who is 12. Is there anyone who could say what to do. Before I was seeing a scientist in computer science and

he was much nicer he bought me things ans he had always worked and he was generous. Now with this sailor I get all the troubles

in the world while he will earn the big box in the U.S and he has never bought me anything. THe only good thing is that we have

been to France but never alon on a vacation he always go to his parents and never spend anything on me.I really don't know what

to do. I want my baby girl with me. I am her parent and I am the one who is good for her. HOw can the socials take her. I am a

teacher have always paied my bills. And only bedause my boyfriend was away and my narcissisitical parents did everything but help

me. I couldn't handle it. Is there anyone who would say how should I think positive more than I do. I meditate and do a lot of YOga.

And soon my baby girl will come back to my apartment but how can I live with such narcissistical paretns. I read before taht as soon

as I leave thre house I forget about it but now I have to go there everyday and itis sometimes even scary. THey are so mean to me.

HOw can I forget that. WHat is it in their bullying that makes me forget it. I wonder why have they done so much billyin gwith me

and not with my sister. She is married and have two children we don't get along at all. In my apartment I feel so fine. Now I have

gotten rid of a bookshelf that my father came barguing in with two moths ago. Itr was so ugly but I didn't want to say no he had

bought it and taken it here. ut it was so ugly broken on one side it wasn't expensive. I wanted everything to be nice and warm in

my flat since I have my baby girl but he came barguing in wit that one day without even asking if I wanted it. NOw it's gone and I

feel much better. He is so mean my father and in the mail before it was exactly right he has never done anything wth me never

never never. Once when I was 25 he went to the movies and we saw Flintstone. Saturday he bullied me again he said that I have

taken my bestclothes on me when it was the eurovision contest on the TV. By the way I am quite goodlooking I look a bit like

VIctoria SIlverstone without her siliconbreast. But I am tall and blonde and my mother's name is also Ulla. She is also bullying me.

COuld anyone tell me why they are so mean to me. Because myu boyfriend know all my weak parts he is using them agains me and I

am so patient. All looks like children of narcissisitcal parents. But nos I've had it and I'm not silent anymore I have started telling

people how mean my parents are before I never told anyone since I always forget about it as soon as I have left their house.

However since my babygirl is born and I am so happy about her. THey have been so undescribely mean and crzy so I have to start

talking about it. By the way I'm 40 and as they have wrecked my first 40 years I have always wished that they wouldn't wredk my

last 40 years. But now I'm not so sure....

 :lol:Best regards,
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Portia on March 22, 2006, 08:36:36 AM
Hi Helena

I just read your post. Keep talking to people! Staying silent doesn’t help anyone. Are there any groups you could join locally, where you are? Any groups for adult abused children? Your library or doctor may have information about this. Make sure you keep talking please.

Becoming 40 is a big milestone and I think when we pass 40 we see things differently: and it is a chance to stop the lies we have believed for so long. We have the chance to do things differently.

They might have wrecked the first 40 years of your life but you now have the chance to live the rest of your life knowing that you are okay!

It’s okay to ask for help. Please find someone to talk to, someone you can trust.

Lol = lots of love? Lots of love to you Helena. Take care of yourself.
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Healing&Hopeful on March 23, 2006, 03:58:13 AM
Hi Helena

I cannot imagine what you must be going through, to have your beautiful baby daughter taken away and have to see these people every day who are so mean to you.  Sending you strength and big hugs to get through this time.

From your post I can hear how unhappy you are.  Is there anyone around who can help, who you look up to, any charity or doctor?  Anyone you trust that you can turn to at this time?

I'm a firm believer in "you can't change anyone else, you can only change yourself".  Do you not deserve to be treated with love and respect from your parents?  Do you not deserve to be treated with love and respect from your boyfriend?  They are not going to change, so is there any way you can change how you deal with them?  These are not questions I'm looking for answers to, just questions that maybe you can ask yourself, to give you something to think about and you can reply on here if you would like to, but please don't feel there is any pressure to.

For me anyway, I find it helps to to write things down... ask myself questions and write down ways to overcome problems.  I also find it helps to write down what I think is my responsibility and what responsibility I think belongs to the other person.  As a child of an n dad, I have had difficulty in this dept.

As Portia says, keep asking for help.  I believe in you Helena, I believe you have the power within you to achieve what you want to achieve.

You take care hon

H&H xx
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Sela on March 23, 2006, 07:34:46 PM
Dear Helena:

So sorry to hear of all you've been through and all you are dealing with.   :( :(

Please do not lose hope.  Keep trying to do your best and do find someone you can trust to talk with.  Even a women's shelter may be able to direct you to help.  Keep looking and trying.

Big hug to you ((((((((((((((((Helena)))))))))))))))

Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: helena on March 26, 2006, 05:01:03 PM
hi thanks for the answers now a couple of more days have gone and my parents are so incredibly stupid however I have started to talk and I am somewhat glad that all this shit with the socials have happened  because it has made everything come out to the surface. I am and I was so happy for my little beautiful baby she is 4 months today. I am so surprised about the narcissisitical bit with my parents sometimes however I think they want me to die before them and that's why they are so mean to me. THey never wanted me to have children in the first place. It's actually they who have given me all this shit all my life. But I am so astonished why on earth do one want to hurt once children because I think it has happened since I was very young. I have come to understood that my father is a tvångsneurotiker he only thinks about his death and also ofcourse of the heritage. They have never told me how much money they have but since he has worked 47 years and has been retired since 1998. And for christmas present he lended me librarybooks at the library. Now he hasn't given me anything for several years except the terrible bookshelf which not even the redcross want in return. my mother I think the secret might be that hermother was a retarded or something and perhaps my fathers family was a good one and she has been eating sherries all her life and maybe that means that she wants to revenge herself against my father's mother who maybe not accepted my mother but are they so mean to me. Eacn time I go therewhen I leave is a nightmare.THey just give me the girl and then they go downstairs. THen they come up and say that I am cracy when I  am not.
TOday I said that my mother was a nazi because I think she is. THe father of my child only thinks about money and I don't want to marry him. BUt maybe to get out I have to go in. Thanks again bye bye   
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: portia guest on March 27, 2006, 04:05:30 AM
Hello again Helena. Your relationship with your parents seems very difficult - they do not sound like loving, helpful parents but instead appear to make you feel bad about yourself. As a new mother yourself you need all the help you can get - and you deserve help! I do hope you can find kind, intelligent people to talk to and to share your problems with. Not your parents! :(

When we think we're alone with our problems, life can seem terrible. But if we can talk to other people who understand us, the problems are less.

I think you are in Sweden? One writer (a psychotherapist) we have talked about here is Alice Miller. Her books can be very helpful for people like us. She is German I think and has an approach based upon our European history. For me she helps to explain our history and why some of our parents behave as they do. Have you read any of her books? She has a website in French and German as well as English: http://www.alice-miller.com/index.htm

You are not alone. We are different to our parents and we can live our own lives, away from their shadows. best wishes, portia

Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: CeeCee on April 11, 2006, 10:13:42 AM
All in fun here, can there be such a thing as "normal" children of Ns?  :)  - :lol:-----
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: ERIKA on May 16, 2006, 11:25:05 AM

My father is also a narcissicist..i was his whipping post. My mother was happy i was around because then he was not abusing her...in fact she helped him to turn me into an emotional cripple at a very early age by twisting everything back on me.
He would through a temper temper because i was holding my spoon wrong, but when i would scream back at him, she would tell me to think about how i came acorss...always my fault.
You know this feeling right?

I will tell you that I am also in my forties...AND finally got to the point where i told my mom that i did not want to talk to her for a few years.....
YES SOMETIMES IT TAKES THAT LONG...SO first off do not let anyone make you feel badly about it.

Secondly, having the baby is probably heightening your awareness of what is going on with your parents and the boyfriend.
I would not be surprised if you are seeing it very very clearly now.

I will tell you what has helped me....Zen Training.
You do Yoga already, which requires you to concentrate on breathing and yoga postures and you do meditation. This is great stuff...on the off chance that you do not do Zen..

Zen mind training is where you actually detatch from your thinking and notice that it is not you.
Like that abusive INTROJECT in our heads, that most adult children of narcissists are gifted with..watch it.
Don't argue with it...just detach from it (easier said than done) and tell yourself,"oh look there goes that intorject telling me bad things again".

I am reccomending it because it can help you like nothing else i am aware of..I especially reccomend books by Cheri Huber, Eckhart Tolle is good to.


Of course they are going to treat you like you are stupid and crazy..it is called projection.
They project all their flaws onto you.

Hang in there...
All of us who have suffered similarly i am sure are behind you..

About the article.

I am not sure what normal is..
People tell me that there is nothing wrong with me...but i have always felt completely broken inside.
That is okay, because i can recognize it...
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Hopalong on May 16, 2006, 06:11:44 PM
Hi Erika,
I don't know how someone as smart and articulate as you could be completely broken. Your heart may have been broken by abuse, but I think sometimes they heal in mysterious ways. We take new shapes.

You have a gift for explaining and encouraging...I can tell that.

I'd like to learn more about this, if you'd be willing..I'm not familiar with the term:

Like that abusive INTROJECT in our heads, that most adult children of narcissists are gifted with...

Thank you...and welcome!

Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Erika on May 20, 2006, 02:51:23 PM
Hi Erika,
I don't know how someone as smart and articulate as you could be completely broken. Your heart may have been broken by abuse, but I think sometimes they heal in mysterious ways. We take new shapes.

You have a gift for explaining and encouraging...I can tell that.

I'd like to learn more about this, if you'd be willing..I'm not familiar with the term:

Like that abusive INTROJECT in our heads, that most adult children of narcissists are gifted with...

Thank you...and welcome!


Hi Hopalong,

Sorry i have a friend who is doing his masters in psychology..he gave me a book called
"Trapped in the Mirror". he and i talk alot, because his Mom was borderline...this is where i picked up the term "introject"
"(psychoanalysis) a parental figures (and their values) that you introjected as a child; the voice of conscience is usually a parent's voice internalized ".


I don't know about smart or articulate...but, i think that ALL of us that suffered in such a way, have an innate sensitivity,or we would never have been subjected to that kind of abuse...just remember, it can turn you into a formidaible adult.(Jeez these letters are way too small ...getting reading glasses)

Many of us who were targeted by that kind of abuse have a weird gift called "Empathy"...the problem with that kind of abuse, is that it can actually numb you out, so you cannot even know what your own emotions  are..(you have absorbed so much from your own family, you don't know what is yours anymore)

This society is hiding from itself, hiding behind personas, running from themselves, to varying degrees.
In terms of energy, this saps huge amounts of vital energy to keep this up..but embracing and turning your eye to observe the shadow, of who you are telling yourself you are, or have been conditioned to believe you are is far too painful...so it is easier to "go unconscious' become unaware with drugs, alcohol, TV, whatever your fix is...

When someone is very badly damaged by toxic conditioning it makes it that much more difficult to Dance with the Devil...the unacknowledged aspects of yourself that you had to stuff deep down to survive.
(some call this the shadow)

The point is, that ts is an incredibley painful journey...but you ALL have potential like no other because of this..you have the potential to become integrated and whole that others do not..because you are more aware and are having to face this....so you have been made to take the side of this that is damaging and hurtful...now it is time to embrace the side that offers the potential to soar to the heights..

And by heaven...WE CAN DO THIS.
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Erika on May 20, 2006, 03:11:53 PM
HI Erika , Do not argue with the introject and detach I love this .I was a whipping post by n father.I have come to a point of viewing
N-DAD as emotional cripple but we shall see maybe he can reflect on his life.I need no emotion from him . It would be nice but I am not holding my breath .I seem to be on my way to emotionally detaching.Yes I have some understanding of ZEN be the spaces between the words ...............................................................I want to learn more.
The gift within the problem
Hops I so agree Erika  your healing heart transformation is a marvel .
Love and Light

Hi Moonlight...

It is REALLY HARD sometimes, isn't it?

There are days when that introject jabbers away like Hitler on crack...

I have found Cheri Huber's books Awesome..(she has manic depression and had a rotten childhood) and she makes things so simple.
"How To Get From Where You Are To Where You Want To Be"..has a good  method.
Her book " There Is Nothing Wrong With You" quite frankly.....kicks butt.
She explains how the conditioning sets in...how you can uncover it..

Shinzen Young has a series on CD called The Science of Enlightenment...which is pretty good, although expensive..
(you might know about these already)

From what i am understanding...your mind is a tool, it is not actually YOU..
You are the awareness behind the mind..depending on who you listen to, who is teaching.
You can step back, and watch your mind jabber away...

Now the reason this is helpful is that when the mind starts Picking at you, telling you bad things..
It can stir up the emotions...which re-enforces what the mind is telling you because you feel bad...So the mind then says.."see i told you so", which feeds back into the emotions again, making you feel worse...

It can keep going like this if you identify with it.
If you can detach from it and observe it..you stop giving it energy, and it dies out..
It is difficult though...and you have to stay aware and vigilant..

Also if you are into "energetics"...you may know that emotions have energy..and emotions that have had to be stuffed are trapped energy.
(this is actually what yoga postures are all about, unfreezing that energy)
People that have been abused as kids get something coming up that feels really awful...it has the energy of compulsion to it...and it is the trauma from past emotions that surfaces...some people call them Energy cysts..

I know that sounds far fetched...but i have felt these..usually in my chest or solar plexus...they are really nasty..
Maybe you have experienced them too, i have talked to many who have.

Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: lightofheart on May 21, 2006, 08:19:38 PM
Hi Erika,
Thanks for sharing some of your story. imho, even a little detachment can be a lifesaver. I wanted to echo what you said about Cheri Huber: The Depression Book (Depression as an Opportunity for Spiritual Growth) is excellent as well.

Re. the thread topic, I believe who our parents are can have as much to do with the adults we don't become as those we do. I'd be just as reluctant to generalize about the children of narcissists as anyone else.

Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: lightofheart on May 22, 2006, 05:12:27 PM
Hi back, Moon,
You're very welcome. That's such a great book; it really helped me, I hope you enjoy it. Makes me happy just to know it's still in stock out and you didn't have to order it, and even happier just to picture you holding your very own copy.

Here's good vibes to you and your tum for tomorrow, Moon...there, did you catch them?

best of everything and smiles to you,

Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Hopalong on May 22, 2006, 07:07:16 PM
Hi Erika,

Thanks very much for explaining "introjection"--ugh. Somebody's else's voice injected into one, it sounds like!

Hope to hear more from you.

Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Hopalong on May 23, 2006, 11:37:43 PM
Oh Moon.
How terribly painful.

But I'm glad you're angry. Maybe it's liberating.
Maybe it will free you to truly accept the uselessness of hoping for something he does not have in him.

You deserved real love from your father.
I'm so sorry he wasn't capable of giving it.

You do NOT deserve to be hurt. Not one second more.



Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Portia on May 24, 2006, 06:52:32 AM
Erika, thank you for your posts and about this:

Many of us who were targeted by that kind of abuse have a weird gift called "Empathy"...the problem with that kind of abuse, is that it can actually numb you out, so you cannot even know what your own emotions  are..(you have absorbed so much from your own family, you don't know what is yours anymore)

I wondered if anyone had their own words (or otherwise) to describe for me the difference between empathy, projection and ‘counter-transference’ (?) as they are experienced in the ‘receiver’ so to speak. In other words how can I tell when I’m feeling empathy for another or when I’m feeling one of the other two things. Sometimes I get these feelings very strongly and I get a bad stomach pain which lasts from anything from a few minutes to a couple of hours. I’ve had stomach pains in response to emotional confusion since I was a kid, under 10 I guess. I remember my mother taking me to the doctor about it. It was a small, dark surgery and (as with kids at the time) she spoke on my behalf (funny how kids didn’t used to speak in that kind of situation?). I remember the doctor telling her that I needed a diet of glucose and sugar solution. He was looking at me at the time. Then he looked at her and said it might be the stirrings of menstruation (I knew what this was). Anyway when we got back home my stepdad asked what the doc has said and she told him about the glucose and water, he said “she can’t live on that” (thanks stepdad) and she answered “I think that doctor is a very good psychologist”. I won’t forget that. Collusion, lying, adults ganging up against the child, like the child is some wild, bad animal that has to be controlled. I knew what a psychologist was. I knew I was being conned. Anyway I still get stomach aches when I’m upset through a confusion of emotions, not perhaps knowing what is mine and not mine.

(((Moon))) I guess detachment happens when we’re ready for it – when is that? I don’t know. But I reckon there’s no need to work on it. Can’t help being hurt or angry, because you feel and that’s okay? It’s not wrong to have any feelings. It's good to reflect on feelings after the event I guess and work out what caused them.
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Portia on May 24, 2006, 11:40:58 AM
You okay Moon? How are you?
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Sela on May 24, 2006, 02:52:04 PM
oh ((((((((Mooon)))))))!

Sorry for you having to go through this.  Not nice stuff.

Not nice and painful for you.  (((((sending many cyber hugs to Moon)))))

I love how you wrote:

I will live and love the people that know how to love and that love m.my husband and 2 children.

That sounds like a fantastic beautiful lovely wonderful plan!   :D :D :D

Thankyou Moon.  I'm going to embrace that same plan!  It's a great idea!!

Why not?  Life is too short!!

I'm glad you have your H and kids.  I'm glad you have love in your life.  That is a blessing.
Yes!  Absolutely embrace them!!

 :D Sela
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Hopalong on May 24, 2006, 05:50:19 PM
Oh Moon. Nothing wrong with you for loving him, or loving your hope of him. That's part of you, it's part of every child and even child-animal. We are genetically programmed to need them to survive when we're little (though with parents like him, we survive in spite of them.)

I have always believed that children love their parents infinitely more than the other way around...

It's now as though there's been a death, and you have to grieve someone who still breathes.
But maybe if you could do that process all the way through, you'd be free.

How I wish you could yell at him in a big booming voice, right (and especially) in front of his coworkers (where an N is all fixated on image):





(End of fantasy monologue.  I think your plan to turn toward love where IT IS is better.)

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....I'm so sorry, Moon.

I'm glad you're bringing the bag of SAD here. We can hold it. It's not too heavy for us.

Take a load off. You do not deserve this sticky shadow that belongs to him. You're worthy, Moon, worthy of all the love in the world. He's just broken. Not repairable, or not by you.

(Have you ever been drawn toward talking to another --a positive-- father figure, like a professor or minister or male T about your Dad's age? I've found my relationships with healthy women of my mother's generation to be very healing of the loss, once I realized she was N...)

Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Hopalong on May 26, 2006, 03:38:35 PM
I love kind loveable Uncle G!
I'd go over there a couple times a week!
I'd tell him I love him and that he's like a Dad to me!
Big smooshy hugs to Uncle G!

No meals needed, I'd pop over with a box of chicken!

((((((((((((Moon))))))))))))...how you doing?

Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: seasons on May 26, 2006, 03:46:29 PM
Moonlight, I'm so happy to hear your catscan came out well.  Sorry about the abuse you had to be apart of....(((seasons)))
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Sheela on June 06, 2006, 04:24:13 PM
wow, Moon, I am so sorry . . perhaps we are doubles . . .
my son and his wife broke up and since my son is an "N" . . .
it was messy, immoral, juvenile (on his part) and
terribly hurtful  . . i had no choice but to help the poor girl, so of course,
he accused me and even CALLED ME to say he never wanted
me to contact him again.

I couldn't help it . . .  i had to ask him, "so why did you call?"

The only thing that hurts me is knowing how great the damage is to him
and how there is nothing I can do  . . . except pray

Let me send a heartlight to you, Moon . . perhaps it's best to let go
and love as hard as we can from a distance . . .

Love is after all, is a verb, an effect and a FORCE for good . . .
there are no guarantees it will ever be returned  but there is every
guarantee that it has an effect, if not on him, then upon us . . .

You surely deserve the love of your father, dear moon . . .
sadly, he is the incapable one  . . .

sometimes distance is the only answer . . .


Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Sheela on June 09, 2006, 09:07:54 AM
dearest moon,


as always, your message filled me with insight and radiance . . .
just like the actual moon, reflecting the sun's radiance
as a metaphor in the sky for how we obtain light

(it used to be that almost all my poems would reference
the moon)

the light doesn't come from us, but we reflect it
and in such a way, the darkest night is filled with silvery light.

didn't we all grow up hoping to learn how to avoid pain?
initially we thought, we will become wise enough, rich enough, powerful enough,
to be the masters of our fate, that our suffering will end . . .

but we didn't see how sometimes we create suffering for ourselves
or how our suffering and pain are necessary parts of the complete package . . .
right along with joy and love and celebration

i am not trying to make excuses for bad behavior but as Jesus said . .
"let he who is without sin, cast the first stone . . . "   

sometimes, the way to receive more
is to want less

your father and my son will see the day when they will need what we offered . . .
they will realize their mistake  . . .(forgiveness is part of the package, too)

i will wait for that day. but i won't humilate myself by
going where i am not wanted . . . where i receive nothing but mistreatment

if i were called upon
I would be ready to help, forgive, forbear,resume . . .

but my message to the N's in my life is . . .
(I am the one who decides this)

I would rather do things for and with people who reciprocate and respond
instead of humilating, criticizing and deriding me

I hope that you are at rest Moon, someday your father will know
what he missed, you have gone far and away beyond the call of duty
and you deserve all the light you can gather

enjoy! thank you for the wonderful message, have a great holiday

love, sheela------
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Rosanna on July 09, 2006, 10:17:24 PM
TO CANOE:  the fact that you wrote such an inappropriate and angry message saying that you are not a narcissist only proves that you are one.  We are on this board to help one another.  If you do not suffer from loving a narcissist than you don't belong here.
Title: Re: Children of Narcissistics
Post by: Hopalong on July 10, 2006, 03:10:15 PM
Ahh, Moon.
You are as free and bright as any spirit I've known.