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11

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board / Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad

« Last post by lighter on March 12, 2023, 04:31:16 PM »

Thank you, Lighter. I really am confronting what I allowed to happen to myself. And your examples of counter-behavior ("Let me know how that works out for you") are great. What is helping most is I hit a threshold I've been wanting HER to hit. A sort of this-is-enough kind of moment. Not abandoning her or the friendship, but not wanting to go through this particular dance with her again.

You KNOW the Poet would benefit from exiting an abusive relationship creating suffering in her life.  That's a truth.  I think that knowing leaves no space to just be and allow the Poet to be in her suffering..... just have it in your presence withou trying to save her or move her OUT of it, which is her work.

I posted a little about Eckhart Tolle's podcast on STORY...... there's knowing and then there's knowing AND allowing space for being present without knowing everything.  I think that shift is what makes it possible for my girls to listen and be mmore responsive, less reactive, in my presense.  I think it's something similar with your Poet friend, Hops.

I'm better. Zooming with Poet this afternoon. Or rather, listening. She's calm now and I am too. But what I want to notice is all the ingredients of the triggered tailspin I went into for a couple days. My T will help too, Weds. Ingredients are: 

1) Poet sends helpless/hopeless/frightened email: "I'm shaking inside and can't sleep, I can't physically take this, I'm going to have to leave home, partner calls me selfish and evil for saying No to son who'll scare me and steal, and what should I do???
2) I launch into an answer. (You aren't the obstacle to remove from your own home, change all the locks, talk to the police about a TRO, see a lawyer, this is enough, your partner is manipulating/abusing you...)
That was when I lost my way. Feeling compelled to answer her question. I have a choice! (Duh.) Instead I needed to answer her question with a question. Gosh-what-are-you-going-to-do? And not email. I think a call/Zoom is better, let her own what she's saying in the present and just "be" present/empathetic. Not FIX IT FIX IT. My mother used to say "You can be too right, Lighter" and I think that's a real thing.  KNOWING and bring right, without considering what one doesn't know..... leaves no oxygen in a room or space for being present with others, IME.  I hope that makes sense.  I'm still wrestling it to the ground; )
3) She talks to him and he backs down and after lots of "resource" info from me, writes me one paragraph about it's all better now, she's set a boundary. (Ummm.)
4) I'm upset for two days. Really freaking out. Recognize my fear of losing her (closest friend, age 74, not all that healthy). My own codependency on steroids.  Can you identify your earliest memory of feeling this way, Hops? 
5) Tripped over a cord and fell (no harm, just a near miss from a table edge). Ate half a huge pizza. Needed to talk to older friend to calm down. Got too stressed over a deadline for my last OLLI class prep which wasn't hard -- fear of Pres' disappointment etc (she was fine when we met--fear losing that friend too). Let kitchen/laundry pile up, etc. Just noticing those thngs, without judging yourself or fearing into the future is progress, Hops.  For me, it feels like unlocking the doors beyond the rooms I've been confined to...consciously and unconscously.  The next doors have sunlight and pleasant sounds and scents I didn't know existed.  Those doors hold easier flow and being....... not bc of mechanically DOING and acting, but bc of what I've dropped and what I've picked up..... creativity and reason appear... usually unexpectedly and then I connect the dots backwards to see how the machine was buit and THAT I BUILT SOMETHING new withoout understanding what it was I was building.

Just, wow. I think T will advise me not to judge myself. I can feel myself not wanting to. Having friendly thoughts like: You're vulnerable to this pattern but you do see it. You have a plan for the next time. This was triggery because XYZ, so you can pay kind attention to XYZ (only "phamily" friend, fear of loss of connection, need more friends, can't give her anything she doesn't want for herself, okay to detach a bit and not confuse her giving up with my own fear that I'll give up, etc., aging alone fear, etc). Lotsa stuff that I get to continue working on like an adult, friendship.

I swear to god it's okay to continue growing up. I'll be having a learning experience on my deathbed one day. And that'll be okay! 

Pooch is sleeping on her chenille and everything about her body is saying: I love my morning naps curled on your bed, this is peace.

I am a lucky human.  I love imagining Pooch sleeping on her chenille..... chennille reminds me of my Grandma on the farm.  Such comfort: )

hugs
Hops

12

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board / Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread

« Last post by lighter on March 12, 2023, 04:15:17 PM »

I'm cathching different things as I listen to Eckhart Tolle's podcast TRANSCENDING OUR STORIES o Essential Teachings.....
it feels like I'm finally hearing what I used to think of as "the secrets" frustrating me beyond my ability to foicus and sit ;quietly to reflect or "meditate" when I tried 16 years ago.  I felt blocked and tricked and unable to get to the meat of the thing.... the essence, the thing behind the mystery.  It was always mystery, no matter how many minutes I focused on it.  Seems funny now, to believe I could pick up concepts quickly, like color theory.

Anyhoo..... Tolle explains how knowing something and wanting to share that knowledge in helpful ways is different than knowing and ALSO holding space to not know everything in the moments one is present with others.  Particularly in the therapeutic realm..... therapists who have no ability to hold space and just listen, without waiting to shove their lessons and knowledge down a client's gullet, despite their ability to hear or receive or NOT feel herded and forced when all they're capable of is being in that space without being told what to do, think or feel, bc they've had a life of it there's a consistent trauma response the T can't or won't pick up on, evevn as they continue to repeat the cycle until they know, without understanding..... that lesson of including spaciousness and knowing whle also not knowing.

I guess I used to think of it as not having expectations in the the therapeutic relationship with my T.... she didn't care if I understood what she was sharing.... she simply accepted I wasn't going to hear her or get that lesson the way she was sharing it....and she'd pivot  which is the benefit of having toolbox filled with ample tools to choose from.

And so.... I think that's what's shifted with my children ....... I have shifted away from what I know and into a space where I'm also holding not knowing....... there's space for not knowing.

Feeeling I have an answer I MUST share feels very constricted and constricting..... it just does.  Waiting to share it feels heavy.

My pulling back and allowing loved ones to deal with their conseuqnces isn't ME giving up on them.  It's me providing the spaciousness to make mistakes and grow through them, which seems so wise NOW, but felt like something else for a very long time.  When Bill died I felt as though I'd be leaving my young child in the street, alone and vulnerable, if I didn't give up myself to ease his suffering in dying.  It was a mistake and I see now, how giving up myself wasn't necessary.  I see how I perceived the situation and my feelings was problematic.

A small example of how my unconscious tends to run in the background....... I walk a lot.  I pick up trash often, but not always, bc sometimes I don't want to touch other people's poop bags OR I don't have a large enough bag to get certain items and will bring a bigger bag and get everything after others have a chance to get what they might have left behind to pick up on their way out of the forest. 

Since I'm experiencing angst in my neighborhood and simply BEING among neighbors I'm dissapointed in, I, for sure picked up trash, as though THIS act would qualify me and my feelings and whatever as worthy for consideration.  Of course, that's not what I believe, but it's running in the background, still..... and I'm figuring out how that's informed  my choices and my concept of self.

It's a thing.

The places where I insert "story" around facts and circumstances are the places where feeling victimized and helpless happens..... dropping story and just allowing facts to speak creates HUGE space and spaciousness I understood, but didn't quite realize held SO much space and spaciousness beyond the relief and POV I've been shown and accessed, up to ths point. 

We're back to my T asking me if I didn't want more than just "feeling better?"  Did I not want to experience joy?  And that's the difference right now in riding habits consistently and tending to them more deeply and with focus....
dropping judgment....
releasing expectation....
embracing self compassion....
embracing radical acceptance without veering off....
these are mechanics, at first.  Just actions practiced like a band of first graders picking up instruments for the first time, but practicing into second and third and fourth grades..... I think.

Music theory appear and becomes known and practiced and honed in on, then expanded with new infomation and more intricate music identified, broken down, learned on one hand, then the other, then slowly pulled together until mastered.  When one goes too fast, they lose the beats between and details.... the things that make that piece of music what it essentially is or was meant to be when created. 

I watched my oldest DD do that with piano.  She regrets setting her goal to fly through her music, fast fast fast, bc she lost the nuance and essence of the pieces.   She sees that .... now.  She doesn't judge herself.... she's just aware. 

I'm gaining enough spaciousness to witness myself navigating my inner world/subconscious/ relationship to essential self.  Pretty cool.

The journey continues.

 
Lighter

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Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board / Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread

« Last post by lighter on March 12, 2023, 11:11:09 AM »

Therapist sent timely podcast this morning....
Transcending Our Stories by Eckhart Tolle.  I'm stretching to now after warming muscles up....a new daily routine I'll resist judging; )

I'll respond to your thoughtful post later, Hops. 

Lighter

14

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board / Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad

« Last post by Hopalong on March 12, 2023, 07:53:32 AM »

Thank you, Lighter. I really am confronting what I allowed to happen to myself. And your examples of counter-behavior ("Let me know how that works out for you") are great. What is helping most is I hit a threshold I've been wanting HER to hit. A sort of this-is-enough kind of moment. Not abandoning her or the friendship, but not wanting to go through this particular dance with her again.

I'm better. Zooming with Poet this afternoon. Or rather, listening. She's calm now and I am too. But what I want to notice is all the ingredients of the triggered tailspin I went into for a couple days. My T will help too, Weds. Ingredients are:

1) Poet sends helpless/hopeless/frightened email: "I'm shaking inside and can't sleep, I can't physically take this, I'm going to have to leave home, partner calls me selfish and evil for saying No to son who'll scare me and steal, and what should I do???
2) I launch into an answer. (You aren't the obstacle to remove from your own home, change all the locks, talk to the police about a TRO, see a lawyer, this is enough, your partner is manipulating/abusing you...)
That was when I lost my way. Feeling compelled to answer her question. I have a choice! (Duh.) Instead I needed to answer her question with a question. Gosh-what-are-you-going-to-do? And not email. I think a call/Zoom is better, let her own what she's saying in the present and just "be" present/empathetic. Not FIX IT FIX IT.
3) She talks to him and he backs down and after lots of "resource" info from me, writes me one paragraph about it's all better now, she's set a boundary. (Ummm.)
4) I'm upset for two days. Really freaking out. Recognize my fear of losing her (closest friend, age 74, not all that healthy). My own codependency on steroids.
5) Tripped over a cord and fell (no harm, just a near miss from a table edge). Ate half a huge pizza. Needed to talk to older friend to calm down. Got too stressed over a deadline for my last OLLI class prep which wasn't hard -- fear of Pres' disappointment etc (she was fine when we met--fear losing that friend too). Let kitchen/laundry pile up, etc.

Just, wow. I think T will advise me not to judge myself. I can feel myself not wanting to. Having friendly thoughts like: You're vulnerable to this pattern but you do see it. You have a plan for the next time. This was triggery because XYZ, so you can pay kind attention to XYZ (only "phamily" friend, fear of loss of connection, need more friends, can't give her anything she doesn't want for herself, okay to detach a bit and not confuse her giving up with my own fear that I'll give up, etc., aging alone fear, etc). Lotsa stuff that I get to continue working on like an adult, on my own and with T, and here, that don't need to mess up friendship.

I swear to god it's okay to continue growing up. I'll be having a learning experience on my deathbed one day. And that'll be okay!

Pooch is sleeping on her chenille and everything about her body is saying: I love my morning naps curled on your bed, this is peace.

I am a lucky human.

hugs
Hops

15

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board / Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread

« Last post by Hopalong on March 12, 2023, 07:41:27 AM »

I'm noticing thoughts opposed to following thoughts and fearing the experience in my body.....in a society where having emotions is shamed and ridiculed in favor of posturing, projecting and denying.

I'm going to need a whole new sofa to embroider this on, Lighter. Fantastic. Thanks for sharing it.

I didn't know you would pass out at the sight of blood. NO fun! But your whole description sounds gentler and less panicked. Vivid but not dramatic. As though you recognized you'd felt fear during but the fear had drained away and you were just recalling the plot. Not judging yourself for being jumpy during Jurassic Park. Bravo. You sound....oxygenated. Even YG isn't fully retriggering you.

Wowsers.

hugs
Hops

16

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board / Re: Yard

« Last post by lighter on March 11, 2023, 04:46:34 PM »

I've been clearing branches and sticks out 8f the yard, fully expecting to enjoy the wirk, movement and sunshine.

I'm a little shocked with the rumination over the Yelly neighbor and retired nurse anything up to him after I shared his wildly innapropriate behavior.

And I go back and forth...upset with YG then the nurse and there's nothing I can do about it without widening the circle of suffering.

But then, it's pretty much just me suffering right now and I've managed to see more choices and, finally, compassion for retired nurse.

I was kicking rocks and eating bologna samuches till about 2 hours ago....abd compassion fell like a wet blanket on my resentment and anger, which is a relief.

I process this with the Cowboy, who wants to call the magistrate Court and ask for a TRO.  At first he wanted me to call, while leaving him and cowgirl out if it, but I already know where that leads.

Cowboy saying YG still seeking out Cowgirl in the forest.....Cowboy knows sure YG is stalking me and his wife.

He can make that call, esp since YG hasn't spoken to me recently.  If we pass, I growl and he runs fast by me.  I'm so past pretending.....well to the point of resolving my feelings and how I'll handle things, one way or the other.

I don't think YG's wife needs protection from what her husband IS.  She knows.  She might be relieved to hear the truth and put a stop to his pressing in where he's been asked to stay far away. 

Cowboy knows she'd put YG husband in his place....all the money is her family money. 

My T will want to process all the energy out of this situation for me......then hope I can let it all go.....find enjoyment in my yard again and maybe have one compassionate chat with Retired Nurse, to clarify and understand without expectation.

The thing is.....Im done sucking it up so everyone is comfy.  That's going to change.  I can't quite see how yet, but I will.

Lighter

 

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Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board / Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread

« Last post by lighter on March 11, 2023, 04:24:41 PM »

We checked in with the "part" rendering me unconscious (since I was 3yo old.)   T calls her a firefighter part derailing with crisis. 

I'm finally at a point I can ask parts for space and now ask them about themselves with easier curiosity. 

Well, let me tell you, that little firefighter has been throwing burlap sacks over my head and snatching me out of situations for a long time without understanding my age or growing ability to self protect.

T thinks this began befire my first memory of losing consciousbess after a blood draw....I asked to see the vial, likely and the nurse helpfully shook it in my face them bam!  Out like a light.

I was all Fuuuuuuuuch, this is heading back into grandpa territory, but T feels it's about young self centered mother making her needs priority while wearing her children like accccessiries....praphrasing here, but that's the long and short of it.

It's about reassuring all the wounded and protective pieces one has grown up and is competent....they're no longer alone and many have always believed they're truly alone with no acc4ss to essential self.

Inviting them to sit at the table, with us....not to banish or judge or change them....but to integrate them.

It's been very upsetting and threatening to black out....I was focused on pushing it away and certainly judged it. 

Today wasn't about that, but it came up at the end of the appt.  The appt was aboutthe books I'm reading and how they're changing perceptions and understanding for me partly bc I have other puzzle pieces on the board and can take that information in.

I think it would have mostly bounced off a year ago with a few loud points sticking....becoming other pieces on the board without this shift in perception bc my ability to be in my body, unswitched, is pretty consistent.   

Lots of moving parts, impossible to see more than a few pieces at a time, or even one, with nose on the Pebble and that's how I experience it....
With more spaciousness and ability to process as I'm noticing thoughts opposed to following thoughts and fearing the experience in my body.....in a society where having emotions is shamed and ridiculed in favor of posturing, projecting and denying.

Ya....what a glorious Spring day it is. 

Both DDs sang at Karaoke last time....lots of happy dancing.  Joy was in that room.

Lighter

18

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board / Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad

« Last post by lighter on March 11, 2023, 04:11:40 PM »

 Hi, Hops.  I'm glad you have your very wise friend in 3D to bounce things off of. 

It seems to take as much time as it takes to identify patterns without fight or flight shutting down logic and reason.  I'm amazed when managing to sidestep survival mode making it possible to see so much than before.  I'm experiencing something similar.

I hope it's possible to remain outside your Poet friend's spiral to remain as responsive and able to respond in the most helpful way possible while sidestepping reactivity and familiar rabbit holes of your own.

It's perfectly to fine to hold space for the Poet's distress so she can feel it and, hopefully, process it into clarity and knowing.

You can't want something more for the Poet than she wants for herself.

Your willingness to carry her distress with her likely relieves her discomfort enough she can put it away, until next time, when you're there for here again, or maybe just holding space for her to be safely IN her distress.

I'm shocked at all the choice and possibilities opening up when fight or flight is calmed so our entire brain comes online.  Like flipping a switch.

You aren't just protecting your equilibrium when you sit with her distress without reacting.  You're opening up possibility to sit with and experience your own distress and abandonment issues......me too. 

I had to figure out giving space, instead of trying to save others, isn't giving up or being cold or lacking compassion.....its healthy and ya, creates distress at first, but therapists are there to guide and inform.

Allowing others to feel their distress and save themselves doesn't equal the behavior of a sociopath.  It can feel that way, ime.

I try to remember the difference between helping someone heal or helping them stay where they are is everything.  I have choices.  Helping feels better than enabling, ime.  Not at first, but it doesn't take long to show up then gets easier, ime.

I like the phrase....
"Let me know how that works out for you" when someone I care about is processing painful emotions.......it puts the weight of their choices squarely with them. 

You're a good friend to the Poet, Hops.  I think you're definitely have a breakthrough.
Lighter

19

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board / Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad

« Last post by Hopalong on March 10, 2023, 04:45:03 PM »

Had a great conversation with my wise 80 y/o friend, who is never afraid of the stickiness or darkness of any topic or question, ever. She is a treasure.

Anyhow, I got another layer peeled down to take to T next week. WHY do I get so triggered by a frantic desire to rescue/fix her (or anyone)? Aha. It happens more for me in relationships with women. Cue: lifelong baggage fear of women's rejection. Present baggage about how excruciatingly important friendships are w/o having family. Ahhhahahahha. So, if I choose to no longer repeat the pattern of: Poet dumps heartrending stuff, I take it straight to heart and become myself very distressed by her distress. Then I try to find the answers for her or, if she has directly asked, advise her what to do. Then when the cleanup email (la la la, it's all better now) arrives the next day, I feel used/drained/and even pissed.

So my own work, my question can be: Does this (like everything) mean my fear of abandonment by female friends come from my earliest Nmom stuff? Even if it does, can facing that help me unhook my present response choices from child-Hops' vulnerability, so I stay secure in myself no matter what Poet's reaction is?

I think it'll obviously be a Yes. That feels good. Insight is worth everything. And I also am thinking when Poet and I Zoom on Sunday, I need to own my half of the experience with her, and let her dance away if she must, but also give her the opportunity to own that the reason it's so hard isn't due to her initial reaching out in distress (I never want her to feel she can't) -- but mostly due to her cleanup messages afterward, which are full of denial and lacking in serious followup plans.

She's got a right to take her own time and energy to heal or not heal (leaving when the pain of staying is more than the pain of letting go), as Lighter mentioned. But I've lost track of my own right to protect my equilibrium by finding enough detachment to ask the classic healthy question: "Gosh, what do you think you're going to do?"

I may be deluding myself, but feel as though I might be on the edge of a breakthrough. It's not serving either of us for me to join her in the repeated "game" as a willing accomplice. I don't have to go cold or anything like that, but do have to face that being her closest friend through this cycle has a cost, unless I get a grip and learn how to practice more distance.

Plus, wise friend said: If you join her in the pattern: She panics over being abused, you rush in to urge her to SEE and SEEK a different way, she replies with a pastiche of ego and posing to cover her feelings of vulnerability and shame, and then becomes distant for a while while she copes with those (which triggers YOUR feelings of abandonment), and then all is well until it starts again. And if you do keep cooperating with her pattern, you are helping her stay stuck. (Because she's not having to face the consequences/realities of not choosing a new path.)

I knew these precepts of codependency but think it got through to me more clearly this time, because the idea of hurting my friend or participating in a dance that keeps her stuck feels terrible. I am more motivated now to try a different approach. Even if I have to stick a note on my monitor to remind me during our next chat, that's fine. Because I'm not in charge of her but I am in charge of my own health. And I recognize that this pattern is not helping her and is harming me.

Whew.
Hugs
Hops

20

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board / Re: Friendship Moments: good or bad

« Last post by Hopalong on March 10, 2023, 11:43:25 AM »

Well, I'm disappointed in myself but thinking clearly about it.
I have been getting SOOOO excited about Poet's visit for my bday. Still looking forward to it greatly.

But I just slipped back into FIX-her mode when I got a long email. Her emotionally-abusive partner is obsessed with rescuing his unstable, violent, alcohol-addicted (to the point of nearly dying) felon son, who needs rehab again but whose insurance won't cover it, and who has literally stolen from his father over and over. She has long told partner that the son may not come to their (in her name) house. But lately partner's obsession has ratcheted up more and more (son's coming out of a psychiatric hold at hospital) and he's pressuring her to let the son stay there "until we find a rehab" and she's freaked out. Doesn't want him there but partner's telling her she is evil and selfish for not welcoming him, partner has the right to invite him, etc.

So she wrote me saying she would leave her home and go stay at her daughter's but is afraid of thefts and also of the son finding her financial info while she's not there and stealing money from her too. The kicker was her telling me that she feels like she's shaking inside, can't sleep, and then saying What should I do????

I think this all reminded me of my huge drawn-out struggle with M that culminated in a stroke. I actually fear for her. So I jumped into research mode and sent her a bunch of resources and advised her strongly (she DID ask) to end the relationship. (Her thesis is that she CANNOT be alone -- even now living 10 min. from daughter.)

Then, like clockwork, came the clean-up email: Well now I've talked to him so he's backed off the demand to have his son come, and if he doesn't comply he'll have to leave, etc. Now that I've talked to him he understands it, etc. A variation on countless times she's said:
--I explained it to him and he understands it now
--I can see he's realizing the situation
--He's not going to enable his son any more

She has a delusion that if she INSTRUCTS him enough about HIS codependency, she's in control. She never is, he never changes, he never stops resorting to emotional cruelty toward her when he's upset. Which he often is because he's afraid his son will die. I have compassion for his dilemma because I went through the exact same thing before I let go of my D.

Meanwhile, it's obviously very codependent of me to keep trying to help her. Her cleanup-email #2 was about how she hopes her daughter and I both see how tough she is. (When she wrote an epic description of how vulnerable she feels, my trigger....)

This is a big vent but the good news is that: I recognize the pattern. I am committed to a healthier friendship. I will continue to try to keep my balance if/when she loses hers. It's sad and difficult but she's worth it to me. Close friends aren't a dime a dozen. Close friends who are also poets are like dinosaurs.

There's a part of me that's not only annoyed with myself for lapsing, but also with her. Her crisis-messages are heartrending, but I can handle that. But the clean-up messages are an irritating blend of denial and more delusional "I'm back in control now because I 'won' this round and told him XYZ..." none of which I have any faith in whatsoever.

Arrrgh. Thanks for listening. I'm at least glad this was a one-day/one-night round of relapse and that I am not confused about what happened. With her or myself.

hugs
Hops