being silenced vs saving face

[sjkravill]

I swear... my NXH is a bit like hotel california!...you know... you can check out anytime you like but you can never leave...

Last I wrote about checking out... I am finally really out, really getting divorced, really recognizing that I am not the crazy one... really recognizing his cruelty for what it is....

But then I notice these wierd patterns in my other relationships that I can only for the life of me trace back to my relationship with my XNH.  The inability to stand up for myself.... to automatically think things are my fault when they might not be, or if I do stand up for myself it pisses people off... So either simply assertiveness makes people defensive most of the time, or I am expressing it wrong.  But when people get ticked I appologize or I alienate them... and things are never quite the same.  When I get silenced by defensiveness, I feel just like I am with him again! It makes me so angry. 

I found these coping mechanisms to survive with him.  Just don't tell the truth, it's dangerous. For God's sake girl tell him what he wants to hear.  OR at least fluff it up a bit.  Don't argue,  you won't get anywhere you'll just make things worse by talking. And if you convince yourself he's right, at least you won't be angry all the time, and you'll better be able to keep the peace. 
So now in interacting with him (although I do it as little as possible) I am more assertive, but stop just short of pissing him off and telling him what where I really think he should go.  I still can't express anger! 
Now that I am out I experience stronger feelings than I ever did when I was waith him.  I get pissed about things! No longer is everything always OK with me. I tend to be a very direct person.  So when I am having certain feelings (actually feeling them) I usually express them.  With him, I just stopped feeling anger, and started thinking I was just crazy.  Or that other people were always right.  Now, its not so much the case.

Maybe I expect a lot of people.  I generally always expect people to treat me the way that I would treat them.. but so many people turn out to be defensive... and I fall into that trap of thinking its my fault they're mad, or that I shouldn't make people mad.  I think I have done something wrong, when I have just been direct and honest. (this is a little like storm's thread on verbal boundaries, but not quite the same)

When these things happen I get to feeling very bad about myself again.  I feel like I have done all this work to sort of stand up to by XNH by leaving him, but I still can't really stick up for myself and be loved... So in a way I haven't really left him behind. 
I have really noticed this type of thing happening recently. I have appearence... people often think I am much younger than I am, and they seem to expect me to be submissive, and they are always surprised when I am not... but far too often I am. 

Example: (I am in grad school) Last semseter I had an incomplete.  I handed my paper in to my professor long before the incomplete deadline.  Weeks and weeks went bye and I never got the paper back and never got a grade for the class.  Finally I emailed her and siad I needed my grade in 2 weeks (I had the excuse of an evaluation approaching).  She turned in a grade for the class but I still never saw my paper.  Now our semester is over and I just emailed her again and asked if I could have the paper back.  I was interested in seeing how I did on the paper.  She gave me this email about how because it was an incomplete paper she didn't write comments and she just graded for the overall class.  No answer about giving my paper back.  So now I am wondering if she even read my paper... She worded her email to say that if I wanted her to spend the time marking it up I would have to wait a few weeks (mind you it was a 12 pager... should take her a half hour at most).  I emailed back and said not to spend her time marking it up.  But the truth is I worked really hard on it, and I feel like I deserve a fair evaluation.  It was not part of the original deal that if I turned in an incomplete, I would not get it back or not get a real grade.  I wish I could have had the courage to say, yes please do spend extra time in a few weeks giving me feedback.  I feel like I let her manipulate me, or that i was for some reason intimidated.  Or that I did something wrong by asking for my paper back. 

Another example. There was this housing option that involved work in exchange for housing.  In the interview meeting I told the committee that I thought they needed to insulate the house and that they really needed to find a way to include the heating, becaues it is really expensive.  And they are getting a lot of work out of the live-in interns for only a little unless they heat the house. That it was a social justice issue.  The supervisor (who I have known and adored for several years) suddenly outed me and asked if I had a settlement yet.  I had not told the committee that I was getting divorced because I didn't think it was relevant, and it is a personal, painful topic.  I think she was defensive for me calling them on being socially unjust.  It made me look like I was withholding or lying about my divorce.  I was very short with everyone until the interview was over.  Later I wrote her and appologized for being rude and also said I had not expected to have to talk about my divorce, and appolgoized for withholding that.  I really thought I was in the wrong, and even thought I was projecting my anger at my XNH onto the committee.  But in truth, I should not have had to talk about the divorce.  Even with my appology my relationship with this woman is very different now.  It's this unspoken coldness.  I feel sad about it.  Why can't we just talk about it? 

Finally my lawyer was REALLY dragging her feet on the settlement process (the way lawyers do because the more phone calls they have to make and the more emails they have to send the more money they get)... And I reminded her that I was working with a deadline, that I had retained her because she promised time efficiency and that I needed not to be communicating with my XNH. and she got really snippy with me and said she was doing the best she could.  Later I reassured her that I trusted her, and that I was having a stressful month... 

I think I appologized because I think people work best when you stroke their ego... and face saving has to be a part of a productive conflict... But I don't like it.  Why do people get so offended when you try to tell the truth? Am I not offering enough opportunities for face saving?  I have litterally alienated people that way.  Even though I can't always stick up for myself, I do more now than ever before.  So I am wondering if it is the way I am going about it... or if most people have defensiveness issues.  What's wrong with a simple appology? or conversation??? Can't we argue and still be friends???

Maybe I am just young and stupid... is this just a lesson in life that I am learning?

[sjkravill]

I should add that it took me forever (and a lot of encouragement from my roomate) to gather the courage to ask for my paper back.  My roomate said, "you are the only I know who would not have asked for it back."   
My roomate also had to make me write my lawyer and demand she work on my case.   
I guess often when I get frustrated I  convince myself that its ok for people to treat me that way, that they are really well intended and that I am not that important.  a bad habit from the days with XNH. 
sorry for the long post!!!

[pennyplant]

Hi SJ.

You're definitely not stupid.  Maybe overwhelmed?  But not stupid.  I think you're going to be learning a lot of new feelings and behaviours and it's going to feel funny and there are going to be missteps.  I have some of the same trouble with dealing with people after some truths have been spoken and some feelings have been felt (on both sides).  My gut tells me that some of the bad reactions you are getting have less to do with you and more to do with the pressures some of these people may be feeling personally.  But some may be a result of the confrontation.

One thing I have finally learned is that once enough time passes, you can approach the same people with something of a clean slate.  I got into it once with someone at work.  Long story regarding what it was about so I'll skip to the resolution.  He was someone I only worked with once a week.  After the falling out he acted funny and perhaps it was his way of making it up.  But I was still steamed so I was very distant.  So, then he responded in kind.  It was very awkward for many weeks and then he quit.  He had been planning to quit soon anyway, but I often wondered if my coldness sped it up.  Anyway, many months later he was back on a temp basis.  Since I ran into him by surprise and it had been awhile, my feelings had subsided somewhat and I just said "Oh, hi" when I saw him the first time.  Then the next time he had to say something work related to me and I had to answer him.  It was structured.  And that helped to break the ice again and by the end of his three week stint we were able to make small talk and joke around a bit.

I bet if this was someone I worked with every day it wouldn't have taken so many months.  So, the timing will vary.  But people can get back on good terms again.  I have only just learned how to do this in the last couple of years.  I am 44.  So, I'd say you are ahead of the game in even thinking about this and trying to learn it.

Lots of people are defensive.  I work with someone who was offended by a joke someone played on him and they have not spoken in at least five years.  The one who played the joke is sorry and would probably like it to be over with.  The other one felt so disrespected that he will probably never speak to this co-worker again.  Or maybe he is in the habit of it now and doesn't know how to switch gears.  That is a behavior I am learning to let go of. So, there are many reasons for the behaviour of the others you have dealt with.  Some might hold a grudge.  They are not worth your time.  Some will probably forget about it or at least leave it in the past.  Just give it some time.

Sometimes I run into people from childhood who treated me horribly.  They will greet me as if we had been good friends!  Some of them I harbor such stubborn feelings about that my response was in fact quite cold.  Some of them had been less offensive and I have been able to make some small talk and kind of let it go.  These were people who I have such negative memories of that it is not surprising that it would take 30 years for me to be able to speak to them calmly.  Some I will never speak to.

I think you're doing alright just recognizing this issue in your life.  You're doing your best and will continue to do so no doubt.  Lots of new feelings to get used to now.  Give yourself the time and space for that too.  I have found that learning about my own feelings is crucial for being able to get along better with people while at the same time standing up for myself in a gracious way (my goal anyway).  I've said before in other posts, I've come too far along this new path to ever want to go back.  So, even though it is awkward sometimes, I'm going to keep going with learning to get along AND stand up for myself.  The people who really can't handle it, I don't need them in my life.  They are users anyway.

Your examples are very clear and vivid.  Interesting to read about how you are doing with your process after leaving your N.

Pennyplant

[gratitude28]

sjk,
I lived so much of my life just the way you are describing... backing off of people and letting them basically walk all over me. I think it takes a bit of time and some strong steps to get used to dealing with people like this. I also think that there are peple out there who can sense that others do not like confrontation and use it to their advantage (like your professor).
You are moving along!!!!!! Keep looking forward and asking what is best for you!!! It's hard to get rid of those negative thoughts (I don't deserve help, I shouldn't bother this person), etc, because we have been trained to believe that we are less important thatn others. I find that I stick up for other people a lot more than I do for myself. It really is hard to banish the thoughts of not being worth another person's time. One other thing that I do is I go out of my way to help other people, but I feel awful if anyone does anything nice or helpful for me. I alsways feel like then I have to do something even nicer.... It's not right. You should be able to lean on people a bit to let them know you trust them as well.
Take care and keep posting. Be strong and DO make her give you back the paper. Good luck with the divorce settlements.
Beth

[sjkravill]

Pennyplant and Beth,
Thank you for the encouragement.  My therapist uses the word "process" a lot in regards to healing... it's a process... it happens gradually.  I get impatient with myself easily. It's a learning curve, and I tend to expect I should be everything to everyone and do it all perfectly the first  time. 
The thoughts that I am not worth peoples time / shouldn't bother... shouldn't even really be bringing my LONG post up to the top of the board again... How rediculous is that?  Sometimes those thoughts feel pretty awful! Like bleeding profusely or suffocating!  I know they are not helpful, and yet they're hard to control or fight against.
Thanks for your encouragement! I've been running an emotional marathon for a while now and I am feeling pretty warn down, which I think is when I am most hard on myself unpleasant to others.  So your kind words are really needed, and reinforce kindness to myself, which I need to be reminded to do sometimes.  Gosh I am so tired I am writing run-on sentences!
Thank you for reading my long tiresome post!