new and need advice

[Anonymous]

I am 44 yrs old and went to a counselor yesterday for the first time. I am really struggling with how to handle my mother. She is the most unpleaseant miserable person I have ever known. I have lived my entire life "walking on eggs" around her. She explodes into irrational rages and hates the world. As I was describing her to the Dr yesterday, she said it sounds like your mother in a N....I am sure that I have heard the word before but never really knew what that meant.

Our relationship has been fairly typical of the ones I have read on this board, but she has been fairly subdued the past few years, as she is phyiscally sick, cancer, liver failure,and copd.  I have almost enjoyed being with her during the past two years, until 3 weeks ago when she reverted to her old ways and exploded at my house, in front of my husband, of 3 years, and two of my friends. Since that day we've spoken twice, both times ended with her yelling hateful things at me. My husband is the devil and she doesn't need me in her life and my husband is not welcome at her funeral. The next night she calls, I do not answer the phone, she leaves a message, she's in the hospital and wants me to call her.  

I am so torn between calling her and telling her I am tired of how she has treated me for 40 + yrs and not calling her at all. I have not called her yet and she was admitted into the hospital on Sat night.

No one is my family has ever spoken up on their behalf to my mother. We have all just sat quietly waiting on her to get over her "fit"! If I did this now that she is so sick I am sure that my family would never forgive me.

Anyone out there have any advice?

[Anonymous]

I am the original posted ...why did it show as guest? I am not understanding this message board. Help!

[Clueless]

Hello,

It sounds like you need to sort out what YOU need most. Your mother is very ill, in more ways than one, and it may be that if you don't tell her what you've felt all these years you will end up with a whole new set of baggage to deal with on your own. Maybe you should just talk to her one last time and try for some sort of closure. Chances are she won't suddenly "see the light" but it's amazing how much better YOU might feel knowing that at least you've said your piece (peace?! ) Or maybe you really don't want to see/call her again. Either way, make sure you give yourself the advantage because after all, you've still got your life to lead. Good luck whatever your decision and much strength and love to you.

[Anonymous]

Dear Guest, (sorry this is long)

First, to post as a member you will need to do the following:

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Second,  in response to your original post:

I don't know the age of your N mother.  But mine was 74 years old when I discovered that she was NPD and Borderline.  This is a large part of why I chose not to tell her.  

You have just begun therapy.  Have you discussed this with your therapist?  More importantly, is your therapist capable working with you on with this issue? (please refer to the thread "CLUES that your therapist may be a narcissist" below, very valuable info here.

You are experiencing a whole new set of emotions that you deserve to feel.  You have waited a long time to discover what was wrong.. I would suggest waiting a little longer to gather more information about how to process and proceed.  Your need to vent and rage "at" your mother is highly understandable!!  She has treated you rottenly, expecially lately.   Please though, take some time to reflect and see if it is you "reacting"  in a knee-jerk to your pain, or if it is truly in your best interests.  Perhaps for you, it is.  Clueless said that you may end up with a whole bunch of other baggage if you don't.  I only agree with her to this extent:  you need to process your anger.  But this can be done without directly involving your mom.  And for me, this was better.. because it made for one less feeling I would have to process along with the anger - GUILT.  Do we not already have enough shame from the way our Nparent treated us?  Why add to the pile?

Consider this:  what happened directly before she flew off into a rage about your husband that first time recently?  Was there something that caused her to feel vulnerable and fearful?  Sometimes looking at their reactions and abuse objectively can separate us from the hurt they caused, and help us process what to do next.

Here is a little of my story, take it or leave it. I expressed my rage in counseling, on paper, and alone (or in the presence of my higher power).  I chose to do this because I recognized that my mother would never change, knowledge or no knowledge. This is part of the acceptance that you will eventually need to come to, whatever way you choose... Your mother will most likely never love you the way you needed to be loved (a harsh reality, but written as truth in all the books).  I confirmed this by "hinting" to her a couple of times very carefully during the initial processing to see if she would pick up any clues.  I would do things like suggest to her that she was controlling throughout my life and that it was time for me to make decisions without her approval.. but I would cleverly use humor to suggest it to her.  The hints fell upon deaf ears.  Some of the hints were met with the most typical narcissistic responses - denial, rage, or completed unacknowledgment.  Other times she laughed with me, or suggested I was exaggerating, or would respond with things like "maybe, but look how good you turned out" etc. . and then launch into a narcisstic, authoritarian speech about how children need to be disciplined and she did pretty good, didn't she?

When I realized she was not capable of seeing the can of worms I considered opening, I knew that it would hurt her beyond comprehension were I to unload about how badly she treated me.   Instead, I let my boundary-making decide for me. I set terms and boundaries as too what I expected from her in a relationship as an adult.  In the back of my mind, I decided if she couldn't meet the terms of what I decided was healthy for me, I would have to completely cut off ties with her.   Mind you, I did not do this by making a written list and taking it to her one day. that would have been rejected immediately!   It  was a gradual process.  When I would spend time with her and an incident would arise when I would feel abused or manipulated.. I would confront it (i.e, "I will no longer allow you to speak to me that way"  or "I appreciate that you are concerned about me, but it is a decision I will make on my own with my husband", etc.)

This was a struggle that went on for months.  We still are struggling.  But she is fearful because she is elderly and doesn't have much else, so she attempts to comply with the limits I set.

You may not have this success.  I did this because I want to have a relationship with my mother, and because she is old and lonely.  I feel sorry for her.  She knows not that she hurts herself and others, and she is an N because she was abused.  She unfortunately is not enlightened with the knowledge, but I don't beleive it is my job to punish her for hurting me.   The hardest part of this arrangement though, is when I am in the throes of processing rage toward her (privately), I often have to spend time with her too.  If I think it will be unbearable not to explode at her, I make an excuse that I will be busy and cannot see her that week.  

The woman spent 75 years in self-denied misery.  She is strong and will probably live another 10, but to me, what is the point?  I am a grown woman now.  She cannot harm me if I don't let her.  I have to work on myself and learn how to find my true self.  By telling how terrible she was, what am I accomplishing except hurting "back"?  I can express how terrible she was to my support areas (therapy and here), and to myself.  Self acknowledgement is what really matters.  By stirring up controversy, I have more to risk than to gain.. she will likely retaliate with ferocity in the true nature of narcissism.  She doesn't know any better.. she does it to protect herself from the truth.

Whatever you decide, I wish you peace in your healing.  

[/quote]

[CC]

Have to laugh... after telling you how to post as a member I forgot to log in - it was CC responding above sorry guest!  

[Simon46]

CC:

There is a lot of wisdom in your post. I really shows that you have "Done the Work." I will re-read this one several more times - I don't think it could be expressed any better.

I chose to tell my parents my feelings. Each person has to make that decision based on their conscience. I felt I had to, that there was no choice. I spent a lot of time thinking about what I wanted to say and how I wanted to say it. (With the help of a therapist)

Afterwards, I was ferociously and cruelly attacked long period of time, and eventually cut-off.

The funny thing is that I would do it all again. Not out of a sense of revenge but to just to state (for me) that "What you did is not OK and please understand that I will not be pretending it is any longer." (For the record, their response will be to do lot's more of the thing that is not OK!)

It is funny a year or two later how much good has come of all this tremendous pain and difficulty. I am a  better, happier, less angry person deep inside, because I finally acknowledged the Truth to Myself.

[Abby]

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond.

I appreciate the advice. I know that I am not the kind of person who would attack her. I think I am more the ignore her or calmly say I chose not to tolerate this anymore.

I am still trying to process that my mother is not only person that behaves the way she does. I've never met anyone else like her and am totally surprised to find out that not only are the others but that there's a diagnosis for the behavior. I have spent my whole life wondering what awful event must have taken place in her life to make her act this way!

I think I over emphatise with people in attempt to be total opposite of her

Thanks again Abby ,the original poster

[Discounted Girl]

This is really a "get some work done" type thread -- thanks to all of you for contributing. I too was way late discovering the reason for my mother's nutzy ways. Actually I always assumed she was probably mentally ill (maybe skitzo) and she was inappropriately smug but totally ignorant in most areas and without many social skills. That is the truth -- but yet, she was my mother and I HAD TO RESPECT AND PLEASE HER, EVEN THOUGH SHE RUBBED ME RAW!!! I have always figured she was jealous of me but it was such a shameful state of affairs I tried to bury it and did not realize others could see what was going on. I spent my childhood on the verge of a nervous breakdown and constantly worrying that I was "in trouble" about something, but I could never figure out what I had done wrong. How many nights this little girl lay in bed with my mouth dry (wonder why that was) and listened to my heart pound trying to remember what I had done to displease her so and what I could do or say to gain "worth." What a total witch she was to me. Anyhow, she is old now and I would look like a schmuck confronting her -- oh how she would enjoy playing out that scene and what lies she could conjure about what was said and what happened. About how I was "abusing" her and heaven only knows what else. I shall never never again be in her presence or speak to her on the phone or any other way without one of my children being present as witnesses. That woman is capable of far more wicked things than I ever knew before. She is not to be trusted -- old, young, sick, etc. -- that has nothing to do with it -- she is mean and nasty period.

Abby, I didn't know what an N was either. I accidentally came across the information and definition when researching schizophrenia. I was trying to figure out how she (and my father sometimes) were so overly impressed with themselves and told lies and gross exaggerations. Seems like they were always trying to put somebody down and get over on them, then lie about it, even though there were witnesses, they never seemed to be accountable for their own actions -- took no responsibility and it appears never suffered any consequences.

It is all so perfectly clear now, but I also know that nothing is that simple and that there are many different types of N's and subtleties involved in all of them. I have learned to never say "never" -- after what I have gone through. I don't have many memories of a happy and carefree childhood, even though a few years ago I would have told you that I was an all-American kid -- uh-uh. I know others have suffered physical abuse and horrors that I can only imagine, and sometimes I am ashamed for my own sorrow built around the Nparents who raised me.

As I read postings and website data that "confirms" that this is real and that I am not alone, it helps tremendously. It helps in a "validation" type way, not that it makes it feel better, but it makes me feel a little comfort and not invisible.

I too have spent most of my life providing nurturing and any help that I was able to give to others, even sometimes when I really didn't want to or didn't have time -- I felt like I HAD TO HELP OTHERS SO THEY WOULD LOVE ME AND THINK I WAS WORTHY OF BEING ALIVE. It's just so incredibly complicated and sometimes I feel like I am going to go crazy if I don't get some validation from those who listened to her smear tactics and campaigns to destroy me. I think I will surely blow apart if I keep being ignored. Now, see, it sounds like this is crazy on my part, an exaggeration a paranoid state, but I know that it is true.

I am writing down all the terrible things she has done and said to me (the ones I know about) -- is that healthy or not healthy? I don't even know. When I write it I feel ashamed, but yet it feels good at the same time. I am scared someone will see it and think I am a grudge holder and time waster and hard-hearted, but at the same time I hope everyone reads it and gasps and says "Oh my gosh -- how awful this has been for you!" But yet, I don't want sympathy, I just don't want to be ignored and discounted. I have value, I am pretty sure that I do. I still wish God would reach inside this mind and scoop out those awful memories and make me superficial and live in the present only.

[Nic]

Hello, Abby and welcome,
My views are a little more radical, at least they have become that way since I have found out about Narcissism and it's impact on my life and that of my family.
Remember it is always a question of degree.  You must assess to what degree your mom's narcissism affected you.  To what degree is she not responsible for her rages?  Do you have the impression she is reacting like a truly destructive N, completely self-absorbed to the point of not knowing  she doesn't know what she is doing.  How much shame are you carrying around?  How does it affect your day to day life?  How enmeshed are you with your mother? It's all very complicated at first until you sit down and begin connecting the dots.  What are the patterns?
Simon46 wrote something here a few months ago, encouraging us to really feel the anger in the beginning, and I must agree with him.  When I finally admitted to myself that my two N parents scored very high on the N scale I felt horrible.  I remember thinking, " I have been subjected to continued, unrelenting, destructive abuse for forty years!!!"  Serial abuse even..I felt duped, used, deceived as I reviewed my life with my parents.  I felt like I had been an accessory to them, like the cars, the big house, the country house, the pool, the vacations and the schooling.  Like I was there to make them look good and that they lived their lives through me.  Therein lay the enmeshment, I was being micromanaged, forced to mind read and anticipate their needs continuously, blamed for everything that went wrong, bribed and manipulated continually and shamed at their convenience.
This left me thinking "where is me?", " who is me?" and " why don't I count?" to then conclude that there was no me- to them- who I was didn't matter- to them- and I never counted for them, or maybe I pseudo-counted for them as long as they used my voice and my God-given resources to better extract the living they were afraid to find in themselves.
And so, after much research, I concluded I was the son of narcissists, with no voice, appreciated and enjoyed by people outside my family and never nurtured by my parents.  I spent years trying to make them better parents, fell into the trap of parenting them..I was the adult in the family.
It came to me recently that my parents have never changed.  I sat myself down and pressed rewind.  As far back as I could go/remember it dawned on me that this is how they were.  Again, I reckoned that they were still that way, and ultimately with the help of the literature concluded and agreed that they would never change.  Only I could change.
And so I am changing, little by little and from glory to glory.
I get nostalgic sometimes, eventhough my parents are being very very very nasty to me since I have discovered and acted on their destructive narcissistic parenting.
I'm still not completely convinced they are totally ignorant about how they are.  The literature supports the idea that Ns completely ignore their condition, but i'm not convinced they have no idea and are not cognisant of their actions.  After all, they do not distribute pain in their sleep, they are fully awake when they rage and tell me i'm the worst thing that ever happened to them, that i'm an ingrate, and that no matter what they do they will never be able to please me.  And let's not forget a favourite of theirs, " you're fine, but the minute we don't agree with you..blah blah blah"
I have navigated through the house of mirrors long enough.  I cannot handle N projections any longer.  I'm satiated with it, in fact super saturated after years of manoevering through N behaviour just to survive.  Consequently, I have decided to end my relationship with my adoptive N parents and I am pursuing my True self.  
Some have expressed that getting away from N parents is harder than escaping a religious sect.  I couldn't agree more and I've said so in the past.
My parents are elderly as well, 76 and 80.  I've considered the guilty feelings i've had about never relating to them again.  Now I am ready to say that I feel no guilt about leaving them. I told my lawyer the other day that although they are elderly he must remember that Nazi war criminals are still being pursued by the Wiesenthal center and they are now elderly too.
I would caution you to assess first.  Get validation from others.  You must think this through and experiment.  Shame and guilt will surface often but you must remember, ultimately you have to live with yourself.  You must not consider it a privilege to enjoy your life. Joy and peace don't only belong to others, you can have them too!
The longer I have been away from my N parents the better I've been.  Sometimes I can go an entire hour and not think of them, or some experience involving them.  That is a big step for me.
N parents have programmed you to think about them first, I was stunned this very week how that conditionning runs deep.  Anticipating their needs, which is what I did before, has turned into anticipating their reactions to such and such and worse, decoding some of their behaviours.
For instance, today was their wedding anniversary..although my parents are in the process of moving from our commonly owned property, they are still living next door.  My mom left her outside front door lights on this evening..something she never does unless someone is coming OR to shed light on herself as in, today she was celebrating her wedding anniversary.  Even though we absolutely no longer get along, I couldn't help decoding that leaving the lights on was a message to me exclusively, to let me know she was " celebrating".  I felt spooked by the level/degree of enmeshment there is between us.
The child in me however said goodbye to her way of communicating , and I have decided to become more attuned to the enmeshment ( i didn't think it was that bad!) and to conscioulsy change my behaviour.
It's quite deep isn't it?!  But the only way out for me is to completely relinquish the relationship and my mom is the one who desperately ( she is acting like the spited lover--which brings in an emotional incest dimension that is horribly distasteful to face but necessary ) trying to hang on to me.  To her I'm the projection of her ideal self and the reflection of the love she cannot find for herself within herself.
It's a horrible destructive pattern.  I empathize with her and my dad,but it's just not normal.  And so I'm taking the risk of leaving them and they are lashing out at me and my wife.  Together we have ruined their plan for our life.  That is just not acceptable.
If I were to sit them down and make them read what I have just written to you, they'd look at me and say, " You're crazy Nic, you're pale, you must be tired, you should rest or go on a holiday..you've always been a dreamer and so serious" and on and on and on it would go.. It's about them.. always, and never about me.  When they start to rant at me like that, i'd like to pull out a giant sliding mirror and let them talk to themselves ad nauseam.
That, as well as what everybody else has said is what N parents do.  That is what my parents do and that is no longer acceptable or liveable for me, hence my putting an end to our "relationship"
I've really had to look at MY reactions to them, and the consequences I've had to live with as a result of sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously staying in that relationship.
It goes against the grain, leaving your parents.  I would never encourage anybody to do it as THE solution..but it is THE ULTIMATE AND ONLY solution to my problem. It's that toxic.
As hard as this is for you to read, I'm not convinced your mother doesn't know how she's treating you.  Ns will do/attempt anything , it's about getting away with it, consult the readin list for confirmation.
My mom had her uterus removed two years ago..her sugeon told me it was a successful operation and that if left untouched it could have become cancerous.  it wasn't in her case, yet she went around capitalizing on the fact she had cancer.   When my wife and I more or less ignored her, two months later she casually informed us that there had been a mix up in the pathology slides ( yeah right!) and that she didn't have cancer after all and " aren't you happy I don't have anything Nic? I'm in perfect health!"  Sadly, I wasn't able to hide my disappointment..she read my facial expression right that time..of course she did..
I shudder to think what she would have done had she really had cancer!
Be that as it may, i'm sorry your mom is ill,however it's not your fault and contrary to what she may think, It doesn't give her special rights and privileges.
I wish you much peace and joy whatever you decide during your recovery,
Kind regards, Nic.

[rosencrantz]

Hi Abby - I had a similar experience with my mother - things went peaceful for some years while she created a cocoon around her,  supported by my father and then it all erupted again.  

I think it centres on fear - fear of death perhaps, fear of becoming incapacitated, having to depend on others (when other people simply represent hell), fear of loneliness.  It's difficult to penetrate to the core of it.  

But if the time of dependency that is childhood was so bad that it produced the narcissist, then old age most surely take us back to that most vulnerable of times again when we were dependent on others - and that must be the biggest threat of all to a narcissist.

What to do?  I've put my mental and emotional well-being first, then a peaceful existence for her.  I don't know if I'll ever get beyond the first but I don't need to challenge her - a narcissist won't/can't hear you anyway - and she won't change now, if she ever would.  

Why would an elderly woman, waiting for death and so thoroughly consumed by her disordered thinking, want to put energy into making changes that would only benefit someone else - even if it does happen to be a 'beloved' daughter - when nobody else actually exists!!

A challenge would inevitably bring forth a greater onslaught because of the panic and shame it would engender - and an onslaught is not in the interests of my number one priority (to look after my own mental and emotional well-being).

Just some thoughts.
R

[Discounted Girl]

I like this thread best. I feel good each time I read my posting. I can see myself