Malingering?

[Ales2]

As you might remember from my previous posts, I had a bad experience with a therapist. A well trained one, qualified in NMother issues. Wrote a book about it, I liked what he wrote, so I found him and saw him weekly over a 2 year period, then quit, then went back over another 2 year period for two "follow up" visits and then got him to meet the NMother, hoping he'd question her and get an idea of what she was like, instead, he got her to pay for a couple of sessions and saw me instead. Very angry, still, about that.

Problem is I am still struggling with the same problems (jobs and relationships), but feel if I saw him, he would think I am malingering rather than struggling with actual problems. He gave me a lecture about personal responsibility which was kind of insulting since I had been self sufficient for over 20 years before all the nonsense happened. Now I am in the gutter and have been for five years and have been trying to pull myself out of it, but have been unable to do it. I gain nothing by being out of work, I lose far more than I gain, but I think he believes I am simply choosing not to work or its become to easy for me to avoid work. Yes, I have a procrastination problem, but the real problem is I have applied for many jobs and its almost impossible to get a job in my business with a connection to vouch for my skills and experience level. Just applying is not enough, I network and do all sorts of other things but interviews for work are just not coming.

How does a therapist tell malingering from actual problems and struggle?  Dr G?  Thoughts please!

[Meh]

Oh hell.... we are all malingering and struggling.   My last roommate was a therapist and I could hear her giving therapy sessions through my bedroom wall. I know patient confidentially issue right... because she was making a bedroom into her home office. She moved her therapist plaque around the house into three different rooms whenever she wanted to play therapist..

I had to tell her to flush the turds down the toilet.. what the hell? She told me the toilet was broken and it was not.  I think it was some kind of bizarre passive aggressive thing because what adult doesn't flush the toilet and then lies about the reason for not doing so.

I swear therapists are just other people running a business that have a "canned language" repertoire...   I know there are probably some awesome ones out there but hey most are just making a buck in my opinion. I went to 10 before I just decided to cope on my own.

But my rant has nothing to do with you (just my own junk). I think a lot of people here have probably asked themselves  the question of re-hashing versus coping.

Maybe a BIG part of struggling and coping and dealing IS rehashing... for real I think it is.

I think the term-malingering means fake illness. But I think what you mean is kind of like obsessing over the same issues?

Honestly some things in life are like chronic conditions. IF something is causing on-going emotional anguish it is a chronic condition right?

Hell I stopped taking anti-depressants and started writing on here about the issues that I have never resolved and still bare on my soul in some way.

[Ales2]

Malingering is supposed to mean feigning sickness or an inability to work, attend school, attend to one's responsibilities for secondary gain, specifically money.

In my case, when I lost my job, I went through a year on my own, drained my own savings. I had to ask my mother for help. She had maintained that my father died broke and we inherited nothing, so I really thought when I hit bottom, she would not be able to help much more than a month or two.  I actually expected her to tell me to move home (I was 40 when this happened and it was devastating, but happening all over the country to plenty of other people) Then the weirdest thing happened, I got into an argument with someone I was trying to do business with and a mentor friend  told me about Nism and who treated me this way before. Easy answer. My mother.  I had just discovered she was an N. So here is where it gets weird. While researching Nism, and I eliminated it against all other personality disorders, Im pretty sure thats what she is. During that time, I stumbled onto the therapists book, who later became the therapist I was seeing.  A month later, in a conversation with my brother, we argued, he thinks Mom is a borderline, I think N, but we agree that she has a disorder and so here I am, unemployed at 40 with a newly discovered N mother who is now paying my rent. This is where the deep dark hole starts. This is where the secondary gain comes in. I think the T thinks I am unemployed b/c I want to stick it to my Nmother, I DON"T!!! I want to move on and get my freedom back! 

So, there is where the problem is. He will think I am malingering, rather than an actual employment problem.

[Twoapenny]

Malingering is supposed to mean feigning sickness or an inability to work, attend school, attend to one's responsibilities for secondary gain, specifically money.

In my case, when I lost my job, I went through a year on my own, drained my own savings. I had to ask my mother for help. She had maintained that my father died broke and we inherited nothing, so I really thought when I hit bottom, she would not be able to help much more than a month or two.  I actually expected her to tell me to move home (I was 40 when this happened and it was devastating, but happening all over the country to plenty of other people) Then the weirdest thing happened, I got into an argument with someone I was trying to do business with and a mentor friend  told me about Nism and who treated me this way before. Easy answer. My mother.  I had just discovered she was an N. So here is where it gets weird. While researching Nism, and I eliminated it against all other personality disorders, Im pretty sure thats what she is. During that time, I stumbled onto the therapists book, who later became the therapist I was seeing.  A month later, in a conversation with my brother, we argued, he thinks Mom is a borderline, I think N, but we agree that she has a disorder and so here I am, unemployed at 40 with a newly discovered N mother who is now paying my rent. This is where the deep dark hole starts. This is where the secondary gain comes in. I think the T thinks I am unemployed b/c I want to stick it to my Nmother, I DON"T!!! I want to move on and get my freedom back! 

So, there is where the problem is. He will think I am malingering, rather than an actual employment problem.

Ales, I think you need to see a different therapist.  I remember those threads you wrote about him and he sounded awful.  There will be other, better therapists out there.  The whole point of therapy (as I understand it) is that you can go in, off load and be supported through what is often a very painful process so that you can find your own feet again and move on in your life.  You shouldn't be worrying about what he or she will think about you.  I'd really be looking for someone else now.

As an off shoot of that, is there any sort of career counselling service you can access?  If unemployment is the problem is there some sort of help with that, perhaps looking in other areas, re training, that sort of thing?  Is there any kind of benefits programme so that the state can help with your rent rather than your mum?  I'm just thinking it sounds like there are some practical problems that aren't the same as the therapy type issues, if you see what I mean?

[Meh]

Yah, I moved into a strip mall city area I don't like and started working in a call center where it's a revolving door of employees quitting or getting fired... but I am just hanging in for dear life. I moved away from a small town where the employment was very very selective and hard to get..... to here but hey it's in the name of survival.


I can't really judge if you are malingering or not. You may be, you may not be... a therapist opinion is just another opinion (in my opinion )..... see how utterly not helpful that is

If you are applying for jobs, numerous jobs every week and not getting hired then you are not malingering.

If you are not applying for jobs then yah, you have given up the fight even if there may be some futility to it?

Maybe you have to ascertain for yourself?   You know if you are doing everything you can do.   You just know it.

I know I am doing everything I can do, I just don't have a lot going for me and my life is hard at times. For myself I don't call this depression or malingering or try to call it something bad anymore, I just call it the way the cookie crumbles.

Having money is sooo good that is all I can say.  The rat race never goes away. Ever. 

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Ales2,

Obviously, not knowing you or your therapist well enough I can’t comment on your specific situation.  But I can say this:  IMO, the most important, and ultimately life changing part of long term therapy (for non-personality disordered people) is the relationship.  It is not about insight, although insight often results from the relationship, and it is certainly not about “advice” or judgment.  The relationship literally changes/re-wires the brain—therefore, who the therapist is as a human being matters greatly.  From this perspective, no two therapists are alike. So, if the relationship does not work, IMO, it is always time to move on.  Sadly, in my life, all my experiences with therapists from the patient/client side of the room were poor or destructive (one of my reasons for creating this web site years ago).  A good therapist is very hard to find, particularly if you don’t know what to look for.  I can also say that for some people, I was not the right therapist/match, given the nature of the two people in the room.

I hope this helps.

Richard

[Ales2]

Hello Dr. G,

It does help, very much, thank you. I agree - the re-wiring the brain and the necessity of trust in the therapeutic relationship, are both crucial. Thanks for your response and insight.

Have a wonderful week,
Ales2

[Hopalong]

Hi Ales,
I don't know the answer for you, but it sparked a memory.

Most of the time, when I have been in a therapeutic relationship,
it has been warm, connected, and I felt liked. Lifted and helped.

But a couple of times, in my late twenties, when I was both a bit manic
and I believe, pretty narcissistic without knowing it...I recognized that a
therapist didn't like me. Took a while to understand that there was something
more complicated going on.

The best clarity I have now, about 40 years on, was that in some way,
in some encounters with a therapist...I think they sensed I was running my
own agenda, in a way. I was in a power struggle. I didn't want to be humble
or helpless and something dark in me wanted a therapist to justify and respect
me. And a couple didn't. I don't know how to explain it, but there were a couple of
therapists I didn't like and didn't recognize that this was mutual. Instead, it had to
be that I was "right" and they were "failing." So instead of seeking a better
match, I kept at it....seeking something that I felt they wouldn't give...and I
pushed and pushed, and got resistance or recoil from them.

This is so totally vague, sorry. I remember, so vaguely, feeling anger toward
one or two. And indignant. And offended. And ... loathsome term: entitled.
There was something I was demanding that they just would not give. I think
if they didn't understand me and give me what I needed...I felt contempt.
And that is a hugely N-istic feeling (that I now recognize as a spiritual enemy,
perhaps the biggest.)

I still don't quite understand what it was. But I know at that time I owned part of it,
and was contributing at that time, something toxic to the dialogue that I now
believe came from my unconscious training from my N-mother. That an N-istic
self-absorption in therapy was different from seeking healing or truth...and
that then, I was just cycling obsessively through a me-me-me-me thing
that was even overwhelming to a T.

I know now that I am not "an N." However, I also know that at times during
my life, I reverted to N-istic behaviors, as I struggled to get through the world.
As a woman, a writer...I was so angry at not being equal. And it wasn't a big
stretch for that anger to manifest in an Nistic self-absorption, an undercurrent.

I think it's really hard when you're furious about sexism and were raised by
an Nmother.... not to be vulnerable to some of HER entitlement and self-absorption.

So that's why I think a couple of therapists, years ago, grew fatigued with me.
And I don't blame them. I got sick of myself too.

Hops

[Ales2]

Thanks Hops, your description is very helpful and I identify with much of what you are saying. My T just kind of sat there listening, seemed never to help me get past stuff, and never validated how I was feeling either. Ever felt victimized and had to tell several people before someone acknowledged you were wronged? Thats kind of what it felt like, like he didnt believe me and I told him so. It didnt seem to help. The part for me that is difficult with that was that I was not angry, I was very obviously hurt and weakened by what happened, I didnt feel entitled, but got the feeling he thought I WAS entitled to something.

Your comments really resonated with me, thank you. I get your point that the T and you were not a match at that time. It makes sense.

[sea storm]

It is very difficult for a therapist to give uncondiitional positive regard to their client. it is a huge challenge at times. That is one the the hallmarks of a good therapist. They can hold the ground that is safe for you and not go into attack mode. Their may be times when it is hard not to confront a client on self destructive behaviour but I just can't see how labelling a client passive aggressive is a good idea. Who wants to be passive aggressive? Nobody.
I know this from being in both roles. If i am disturbed by a client or triggered by their issue then it is my problem and not the client's. If I feel judgemental, then it is not helpful. It is also a misuse of my position of authority in the relationship.

When you are trying as hard as you can to get a job and it sounds like you are you don't need someone pecking away at your self esteem when it already probably very low because of all the rejection that comes with job search. Also therapy is expensive, and maybe taking more training would be a boost to your self esteem. In Canada there are quite a few programs that are paid by the government or you can get a loan which includes living allowance.  You probably know all that anyway.

Malingering........ that is an interesting word...... It involves deception and manipulation that is probably at an unconscious level.  You are getting your rent paid and probably more but the price is mighty high.  It lets the person paying have a lot of control, even subliminally.

My therapist is a body mind therapist who does Jin Shin Doh.  This sounds very Eastern and exotic but it operates on sound principals. It has been helpful. One thing she said that I try to remember is that I am loving and loveable and if I don't feel loved and valued then that is just a LIE.   Go where you feel that. It is too hard and complicated to try to change other's opinions.

Good therapists are very hard to find.  They often teach you to listen to your own voice rather than theirs.

Lots of love,
Sea storm

[Ales2]

Thank you SeaStorm - very helpful comments.

I am also very moved by what you said that good therapists tell us to listen to your our own voices. Very profound, thank you.

I exhibited good judgement/full financial self sufficiency in my life before, I got derailed, but the competency and skills are still there, buried sometimes by uncertainty, rejection and other BS gets piled on by negative people (NMom, Cult trained Brother) or unhelpful advisors (Business mentor who I decided gives very bad advice). I was much more successful on my own before and none of these people were smart enough to see the boss I had was abusive and now that I am out of there, I have a chance at getting better again.

Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate them very much!

[Twoapenny]

Thank you SeaStorm - very helpful comments.

I am also very moved by what you said that good therapists tell us to listen to your our own voices. Very profound, thank you.

I exhibited good judgement/full financial self sufficiency in my life before, I got derailed, but the competency and skills are still there, buried sometimes by uncertainty, rejection and other BS gets piled on by negative people (NMom, Cult trained Brother) or unhelpful advisors (Business mentor who I decided gives very bad advice). I was much more successful on my own before and none of these people were smart enough to see the boss I had was abusive and now that I am out of there, I have a chance at getting better again.

Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate them very much!

Ales, you sound far more together and sensible to me than your therapist does, to be honest.  I agree with Sea completely, I can think back to times when my T must have wanted to shake me and say "For God's sake!  Why can't you see this?!"  But of course she never did; she focused on my positives (even when I felt there weren't any) and encouraged me to come to my own conclusions and, most importantly, I think, believe in myself.  I've always had this massive level of self doubt and constant need for reassurance from other people but she spent a lot of time with me getting me to judge my own feelings and opinions and to decide for myself whether or not I was doing a good enough job.

It sounds to me like you're doing everything you can to get yourself back where you want to be so I'd be inclined to turn a blocked up ear to anyone who wants to tell you otherwise.

I find asking someone what they would do differently can help as often they don't have an answer!  Or the answer they have just isn't relevant to your situation.

[Ales2]

Thank you Twoapenny, I appreciate all your comments and thoughts. Im getting back to where I need to be and she sure seems bent on derailing that too. I will keep you all posted.