My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[bunny]

P.S. Good for you for not apologizing to her.

[serena]

I can't even grasp what it must be like to live in an emotional vacuum.  Having said that, I realise that there are plenty of NEGATIVE emotions from your wife and not one single positive one.

If you are in a position to provide financially for yourself and her, I would leave....  You should make it of paramount importance to maintain a healthy, loving relationship with your daughter and try to exclude her from the 'mess' divorce brings - not easy I know!!

You may have to deal with loneliness but how much worse could it be than to be on the receiving end of so much stress?

I'm surprised a) you are still sane and b) still there!!

Get out, stay in individual therapy, give yourself time to heal and then move on to a healthier and much more fulfilling life.

[longtire]

Ok, so when I get beck from church this morning, my wife has shifted back to her good side.  I already had a budget for my own sanity, I extended it with several things from her list that I had forgotten and we were able to agree on this budget.  Now, I'll have to wait and see if it holds.  

I think that's one reason I have such a hard time really forming an opinion on her, she changes so quickly, I can't keep up.  Then it either looks like I'm caring about an angry, selfish child, or I'm angry with an innocent, cooperative adult.  The thing that scares me is where did that anger go?  Did she really find a way to release it?  I don't think so, because I was not involved in any way with the release.  I would expect most people to either decide it wasn't worth it and give it up, or to confront me with it and let me know how they feel.  With our history, I assume it's going into the passive-aggressive store for when all this divorce talk is over and things go back to "normal."

Re: your childhood. Others are far more horrified by your childhood than you are because your terror, loneliness, heartache, etc., is being projected into us rather than processing it yourself. I can understand the reason, it's too much to deal with on your own.

Are you in individual therapy?

I think you hit the heart of the problem for me.  I've either been at home with my parents or dating/engaged/married my wife my entire life.  This seems "normal" to me, even though it is extremely painful and tiring.  I'm not in individual therapy at this time, but am strongly considering it again.  I've been considering it again for some time now, but felt that I was having so much change, it was all I could stand.  I'm starting to see that it needs to be the "right" changes in the "right" direction, whatever that is.  I've been reading a lot this past week on this site, suggested in another thread here:

http://www.guidetopsychology.com/index.html

It backs up what you've been saying bunny, serena, and others.  It also dscribes the different goals and methods between counseling and therapy.  Basically, counseling is teaching techniques to help better adapt to a particular social situation, like work, or marriage.  Therapy is to get down to the core issues, bring them to light, and suggest new ways of dealing with them.  I originally agreed to counseling because it was the only thing my wife had been willing to do.  However, I have believed all along that therapy would do more for our situation.  One of the counselor's concerns is that adding individual thaerapy would take the focus off the counseling and diffuse the energy and effectiveness of the counseling.  So far, I haven't seen that the counseling has been all that successful, so I'm not against a change, though I'm betting my wife's defenses will kick in against that.

At first, I believed that I had dealt with most of my issues in my prior therapy and that it was only my wife who needed therapy now.  I see now that I took some huge steps in therapy, but haven't resolved all my major issues at all.  To be honest, I don't think I could have done more therapy at that time.  I think I needed the time to digest, practice, and understand what I got from it.  With the major revelations I've been having recently, it's clear that I have a lot more work to do.  It sure would be great if the therapist could help point out where my understanding diverges from "normal."  BTW, bunny, could you say more about my projecting onto you?  What does that look, sound, feel like?  I don't disagree with you, it's just hard for me to recognize.  Thanks.

I'm trying to decide whether to go back to my previous therapist or find a new one.  My previous therapist knows my history, though that was several years ago now, I might have to remind him!  A ner person would give me a chance to tell my story from the begining again and might be able to suggest things that my previous therapist missed.  Has anyone done therapy with multiple therapists?  What was your experience with this?

I'm surprised a) you are still sane and b) still there!!

a is definitely up in the air at the moment, but b is true.  I hope you understand, that while it may seem clear to you that I need to leave, I want to make this decision from a place of understanding and clarity.  In other words, I don't want just change my mistakes, I want to choose a new path.  I may end up leaving and you may be absolutely right, but I need to make sure that, I am making a good, aware decision for a change.  In other (shorter) words, I'll make my own decision in my own time, but please don't go.  I get a lot of support and new understanding from your feedback.  Thanks!

[onlyrenting1]

longtire

Reading your post rang with me.

 

but I want to know why I'm leaving, how I feel about things, and why I expect to get my needs met by leaving, so that I can make the decision to leave with confidence. I don't consider this self-sabotage, but want to have awareness of my reasons to make sure that I am not simply blaming outside sources for my problems, and refusing to consider, and most importantly, change my own contributions to the problem, so it doesn't happen again. For example, I chose this kind of relationship once in my life. I want to be confident that I now know some of the signs, am better able to recognize it and can avoid it in the future. Otherwise, I expect that I would keep repeating the same pattern with the same results. Where's the hope in that? I want to make changes in my life so I am naturally attracted to healthy people and situations, rather than what has been a pattern in my life until now of accepting unhealthy people in my life

I see along with this post and from your last post you have the same direction as Im taking on a marriage of 26 yrs and a 12 yr old girl.
 
My N-Husband and I have been together for so long, and now being faced with the Idea that your dreams are being toyed with by an( N=6 yr old).

You can't always deal with them on an adult level, the money Issuies are being left in the hands of a mental child.
Your daily struggles are on an emotional rollercoaster any time the
(N-6 yr old) decides to put you on for a ride, you didnt think you bought a ticket for.

You may have decided you could handle all of this, because you adapt all the time. You know you will find a reason why you found yourself where you are. You will grow and move on. You will find the right time to see yourself with the strength to move forward.

Maybe you know you are safe where you are because you don't know if you leave what Hell your wife is going to cause you. Staying where you are gives you some control over your live as you know it now.
You don't know what your daughter will be dealing with if you aren't there to protect her. Losing that control is worth spending the time to move with caution.  

Being a co-dependant like myself maybe there are things you are well aware of, you do. Have you made some changes?
Has the changes made you able to see that you were cherry picked by someone who knew you would always do the right thing, even when the right thing was not the best thing.

You know if the shoe was on the other foot, she may not do the right thing. I know people get divorced all the time without trying to fix why they would fall into the N-Trap.
 
I think after 26yrs/ or 17 yrs we may be somewhat of an expert on what to look for in an N.
I do want to deal with my own issuies like being co-dependant, but if you have been  to a therapist and still not sure your ready to move on, is it more of a procrastination?
Maybe there will be no resolve with your own reasons why you stay because you fear what hell you will have to face in a divorce with all of the family, your wife and daughter.
 
The whole N Idea is not going to go away. Im afraid too, and bullys are always going to be there. I like knowing that my daughter looks to me to protect her, I tell myself I am just learning about myself too and will remove myself when I know how to block out how I get sucked into staying with my N.
My prayers are with you that the strength you seek will come.

onlyrenting

[Anonymous]

I think that's one reason I have such a hard time really forming an opinion on her, she changes so quickly, I can't keep up.  Then it either looks like I'm caring about an angry, selfish child, or I'm angry with an innocent, cooperative adult.  The thing that scares me is where did that anger go?  Did she really find a way to release it?

Has anyone told you about 'splitting'? Have you read about borderline personality? If you haven't, it would be quite eye-opening. You will understand everything. Try bpdcentral.com.

One of the counselor's concerns is that adding individual thaerapy would take the focus off the counseling and diffuse the energy and effectiveness of the counseling.

This makes no sense. It's quite common to be in both individual and couples therapy. It helps!  This diffusing the energy stuff is, imo, ridiculous.

BTW, bunny, could you say more about my projecting onto you?  What does that look, sound, feel like?  I don't disagree with you, it's just hard for me to recognize.  Thanks.

It feels extremely sad, lonely, angry, shameful and despairing. Some of that is my own stuff being triggered. But some of it belongs to you, imo.

I'm trying to decide whether to go back to my previous therapist or find a new one.  My previous therapist knows my history, though that was several years ago now, I might have to remind him!  A ner person would give me a chance to tell my story from the begining again and might be able to suggest things that my previous therapist missed.  Has anyone done therapy with multiple therapists?  What was your experience with this?

Just get a good therapist. Either your former one, or a new one. The most important thing is a GOOD therapist. Not a lame one.

I want to make this decision from a place of understanding and clarity.

This is like an alcoholic saying he'll quit drinking only after he understands why he's an alcoholic. But understanding and clarity will only happen when the alcoholic is sober. With that said, you will leave only when you're ready to give up certain things you're getting right now.

bunny

[longtire]

Arghh...  (sometimes I don't even know what to say!)

I just came from a very frustrating joint counseling session.  We were discussing where we are right now in our "relationship" and whether we are willing to continue.  We both basically said that we don't see any way to work things out.  I added that it didn't mean things couldn't work out, just that I can't see it right now.

The counselor asked the main question we are trying to answer right now which is whether each of us wants to have a good/healthy/fulfilling/happy relationship with the other.  Of course my wife said yes.  I'm very ambivalent and have been for some time about that.  I stated again that what I most want in a relationship is to have someone I can talk with who is their own person, responsible for their own life, etc.  I said that I am going on my gut feel (not anyone else's anymore) and that I do not believe that my wife is in a place where she is actually willing to do what would be needed to have that relationship she claims to want.

I said that I need to hear more about how my wife claims to be changed now.  My wife jumped in that I was denying all of her progress and that I was claiming that nothing had changed.  What I need to hear is more of the aha moment/realization/lightbulb/realization that feelings are different from her to be able to believe in the changes she is claiming to have made without just taking her (very damaged) word for it.

I started by pointing out that in one of our talks late last year, my wife stated to me that she hated talking with me and that it was the hardest thing for her to do because it reminded her of being harangued and brainwashed by her mom.  She broke in and said that is not true.  I have been willing to talk with longtire for years and have longed for it, but he just won't do it!  Well that really pushed my buttons and led me to feel abused all over again.  She has never to me or in my hearing before claimed that what she really wants is to have this deep talking relationship.   On the other hand, I have been saying that since before we got married.

When I pointed out that I had heard the exact opposite and that it makes it impossible to trust my wife because of the directly conflicting messages, the discussion once again devolved to how I am not allowing my wife to do the things I am asking for and that she just can't do it if I'm angry.  Despite disagreeing with this viewpoint, all my doubts and self-abuse came crashing back.  I started questioning if I am sane or really have any connection to reality.  Yuck!  Yuck!  Bleagh!

The good news is that within 1/2 and hour after the session I had already retraced my steps and come back to the same conclusions that I can only trust my own experience, not live by someone else's.  That my wife is the one with a childhood background and history in denial, not me.  If anything I am way too neurotic and beat myself up way before blaming someone else for my issues and behavior.

Also, during the session my wife clamied to be making a lot of progress in healing her own issues.  The only one I'm aware if facing fears of how she would take care of herself when we break up.  I'm not saying that she hasn't made progress in the past several months, just that I have not seen it in her behavior or heard anything about it.

I hate how easily I fell back into those bad habits of questioning myself. Not my experience, perceptions, etc. but myself.  I also hate that I got angry and was cursing again.  I really do not like feeling out of control like that.  All that I have been learning over the past several weeks/months just flew out the window for a time.  I am grateful that I was able to get back to a "place" where I am able to remember it again.

This is my first really major backslide since I sort of awakened.  Even though I knew it would happen, I really, really hate it!  

I'll be back in a bit.  Thanks for letting me spew that out.

[bunny]

longtire,

What does your therapist do to help you through these difficult sessions? And can you call her right now?

bunny

[longtire]

Bunny,
  She (the counselor) is the one saying that I am holding my wife in that place and that since I am angry there is nothing that my wife can do to break through.  The problem is, that I wouldn't be angry if she (my wife) were able to talk openly with me in the first place.  Then there wouldn't be a need to lie about it anyway.  I really, truly want her to talk openly and honestly with me.  I just don't know what else to do but bring it up and talk about it, but what I am getting back is that I'm preventing her from doing that by getting angry when she doesn't do it and then lies about it.

I talked about this with the counselor in a 1-on-1 session and she said that she was not pointing the finger solely at me intentionally as any part of a technique or therapeutic process and to point it out to her if I thought I saw it happen again.  The thing I am most upset about today is that I got so enmeshed that I wasn't able to step back and point this out at the time.  Maybe next time...

The thing I have not been able to do is accept my wife's stated experience as being a valid experience when what she says so oppositely contradicts my experience.  I am NOT talking about having a different understanding, different feelings, thoughts, beliefs.  I'm talking about denying that such a thing ever occurred so we can't talk about it and the fact that I brought it up proves that it's all longtire's fault after all.

When this happens, it just comes out of left field and feels like it smacks me in the face.  In hindsight, I'm surprised that I don't expect it to happen MORE than I do.  Actually, I feel a lot better realizing that.  I'm actually NOT going around looking at every word my wife says ready for a lie.  If I were, I don't think it would be such an emothional and physical shock when it does happen.

Bunny, if anyone deserves to say "I told you so" it is you.  I feel like a little kid who's been told the stove is hot, but just has to touch it themselves to find out.  

[longtire]

You might thing from reading the last couple of my posts that everything is awful.  Actually I've had a lot of good things happening in my life the last week or two.

I've found the resolve to face my memories and feelings from the past more.  This hasn't been happening all the time, but I'm getting a lot better at recognizing when I have an emotion or body feeling that isn't about the present.  I've been welcoming the feelings in and just letting myself feel them.

I've been practicing being more assertive and less avoidant by being clear when expressing how I feel or what I think.  It's been freeing to turn off my censor, or at least ignore it for a bit, and say what's really on my mind instead of hedging the way I phrase it.

I've been exploring sprituality which has really changed my viewpoint on many issues and brought me a lot of peace.

Also, I found a recovery bill of rights at havoca.org and have been looking at it to remind myself when I start to question myself and my worth.  Here it is:

A Recovery Bill of Rights
for Trauma Survivors

As a Matter of Personal AUTHORITY, You Have the Right...

* to manage your life according to your own values and judgment.
* to direct your recovery, answerable to no one for your goals, effort, or progress.
* to gather information to make intelligent decisions about your recovery.
* to seek help from a variety of sources, unhindered by demands for exclusivity.
* to decline help from anyone without having to justify the decision.
* to have faith in your powers of self restoration -- and to seek allies who share it.
* to trust allies in healing as much as any adult can trust another, but no more.
* to be afraid and to avoid what frightens you.
* to decide for yourself whether, when, and where to confront your fear.
* to learn by experimenting, that is, to make mistakes.

For the Preservation of Personal BOUNDARIES, You Have the Right...

* to be touched only with your permission, and only in ways that are comfortable.
* to choose to speak or remain silent, about any topic or at any moment.
* to choose to accept or decline feedback, suggestions, or interpretations.
* to ask for help in healing, without having to accept help with work, play, or love.
* to challenge any crossing of your boundaries.
* to take appropriate action to end any trespass that does not cease when challenged.

In the Sphere of Personal COMMUNICATION, You Have the Right...

* to ask for explanation of communications you do not understand.
* to express a contrary view when you do understand and you disagree.
* to acknowledge your feelings, without having to justify them as assertions of fact or actions affecting others.
* to ask for changes when your needs are not being met.
* to speak of your experience, with respect for your doubts and uncertainties.
* to resolve doubt without deferring to the views or wishes of anyone.

Specific to the DOMAIN of Psychotherapy, You Have the Right...

* to hire a therapist or counselor as coach, not boss, of your recovery.
* to receive expert and faithful assistance in healing from your therapist.
* to be assured that your therapist will refuse to engage in any other relationship with you -- business, social, or sexual -- for life.
* to be secure against revelation of anything you have disclosed to your therapist, unless a court of law commands it.
* to have your therapist's undivided loyalty in relation to any and all perpetrators, abusers, or oppressors.
* to receive informative answers to questions about your condition, your hopes for recovery, the goals and methods of treatment, the therapist's qualifications.
* to have a strong interest by your therapist in your safety, with a readiness to use all legal means to neutralize an imminent threat to your life or someone else's.
* to have your therapist's commitment to you not depend on your "good behaviour," unless criminal activity or ongoing threats to safety are involved.
* to know reliably the times of sessions and of your therapist's availability, including, if you so desire, a commitment to work together for a set term.
* to telephone your therapist between regular scheduled sessions, in urgent need, and have the call returned within a reasonable time.
* to be taught skills that lessen risk of trauma:
  (a) containment (reliable temporal/spatial boundaries for recovery work);
  (b) systematic relaxation;
  (c) control of attention and imagery (through trance or other techniques).
* to reasonable physical comfort during sessions.

[longtire]

In exploring why I am still in this relationship (beside the general reasons someone stays in an unhealthy relationship too long), I wrote down all the reasons that it felt like I needed to stay with my wife and then responded to them from a responsible, adult point of view.

Why I tell myself I have to stay with "S,"         01/30/05
...and my conscious responses

* I can't take care of myself physically, I'll die without her.
S has not supported me physically, verbally, emotionally, or financially.                            I am likely to better off in each area without S.
*I can't take care of myself emotionally, I won't survive the stress of the divorce.
Ditto!  Also, without the stress of single-handedly trying to make the situation work, I will be much better able to take emotional care of myself and my daughter.

*I can protect my daughter from S's emotional abuse while I'm here.
True, but the hostility and distance in our house are hurtful to my daughter no matter what.  I can't protect her from that while it's still going on.
* S will hurt my duaghter as a way to punish me during the divorce.
She may.  I can talk with my daughter to let her know what's going on and support her.  I can also confront S and our let our parents know what's happening so they can support my daughter too.
* My daughter can't grow up healthy unless she has both parents together in the same house.
My daughter cannot grow up healthy in a sick household.
* My daughter will not be able to continue to go to the same high school.
She may not.  I will do all I can to make sure that she does.  I will trust God for the rest.
* My daughter will not have enough money to go to college because S will spend it all.
I will do what I can to get my daughter the best education she can.  I'm sure that my parents and other family would help.  I trust God for the rest.

* Everyone will believe S and no one will believe that she verbally and emotionally abused me.
So far, almost everyone I've told believes me and supports me in doing whatever I need to do, even if it hurts them.  My parents have told me that they will stick by me no matter what.
* My family will abandon me and side with S.
See above.
* I'll lose all my friends.
If I do, they weren't really my friends to begin with, were they?

* It is a sin to divorce and God will punish me.
I'm sure that God doesn't like divorce.  I believe that he will forgive me if I ask him to.  I believe that God doesn't want me to suffer and that this hurt is not his will for me.
* I won't be welcome in church anymore.
If not, then it's not a very good church, is it?

* I won't be able to find the strength to have another relationship.
I don't have the strength to continue this one as it has gone so far.  I am stronger every day, and with God's guidance I can find a healthy relationship that builds me up instead of tears me down.
* I'll never meet anyone else.
There are many women out there who are caring, loving people.  I can meet them everywhere I go.
* I'm too introverted and avoidant to make friends or meet someone else.
With God's help, I will face my feelings and beliefs and be transformed.  I will not live out of fear and doubt, I will live out of joy and peace.
* I'll be damaged by not keeping my commitment to stay and no one else will ever want to be with me.
I will face my guilt and shame over divorcing and work through my other issues as well.  I will walk with God and be open so that others can see the true me.  I don't need anyone else to make me whole, but I can still choose to share my time and my life with someone in joy.

* S will lie and financially hurt me in a divorce.
She may.  If I stay I give her the power to do that to me every day.
* I will lose the house.
I may.  God will take care of me.
* I will lose all of my money and possessions.
Not likely, but if I did God would provide all I need.
* I have more control over finances being married to S.
I have less control, since control has to be shared.  A divorce order might specify child support and maintenance for a few years, but after that I have all the control.

* I tell myself we are on the verge of a breakthrough.
I have told myself that for 17 years and it has never happened yet.
* Maybe S means it this time and will really improve.
Ditto!  S is still not doing these things today.

* I will disappoint and hurt my daughter.
I  may.  I can talk to her about it and console her.  I can let her know that I love her and will always be there to care for her.
* I will disappoint and hurt my parents.
They may be hurt, but they are adults and are responsible for themselves.  They have already told me that they will be there for me no matter what.
* I will disappoint and hurt a good friend.
I may.  I can apologize to her for the hurt and never use her to get back at S.
* I will disappoint and hurt the rest of my family.
I may.  It is my life and I have to make the best decisions I can for myself and my daughter.
* I will disappoint and hurt S's family.
Ditto!


What ways do you talk back to the negative voices that say mean things to you?

[longtire]

I haven't been making time to post here regularly.  I feel a lot better when I share these things with other people.  If you've waded through my previous posts I think you'll appreciate this.

My daughter broke up with her boyfriend of over a year the other day.  She asked if she and I could go out to eat that night and so we did.  We have been having a lot of talks out at dinner over the last year, so that is a common thing.

Over dinner she told me how she had been feeling unhappy with her relationship with her boyfriend recently and made the decision to break up after talking a lot with her friends.

She had asked her boyfriend to be more affectionate, but he wasn't able to follow through.  She said that she didn't know what else to do, but that since she wasn't happy, she knew it wasn't working out and that she needed to break up.  Her boyfriend had been feeling that things were not working either and was basically expecting this.  They talk for about an hour and agreed to remain friends.

I was so proud of her and told her so!  I pointed out how that was a very mature way to handle the situation and that she had done all she could by clearly asking for what she wanted and needed and couldn't really do more to fix things.  I pointed out how her boyfriend acted a lot like his father (goodnatured, but withdrawn) and that she would likely be drawn to people like that since that's the way her father is as well.

I love my daughter so much, and was so proud of her and they way she handles herself.  I felt a little bad since she was doing as I say, but am having a hard time actually doing it myself in my own relationship with her mother.

We continued talking on the way home and when we walked in, my daughter said that she was so lucky to have me in her life to talk to and that she was blessed with parents who talk and support her.  This was right in front of her mother, and I took a great deal of sadistic pleasure in having my daughter say something nice about me in front of her.  

Now if I can follow my daughter's good example...

[bunny]

She (the counselor) is the one saying that I am holding my wife in that place and that since I am angry there is nothing that my wife can do to break through.

Well, I'm kind of surprised that she said this without validating your anger. Sometimes a therapist has told me that my anger was not helping the situation at all -- but they could see why I was angry.

I talked about this with the counselor in a 1-on-1 session and she said that she was not pointing the finger solely at me intentionally as any part of a technique or therapeutic process and to point it out to her if I thought I saw it happen again.  The thing I am most upset about today is that I got so enmeshed that I wasn't able to step back and point this out at the time.  Maybe next time...

I wish you would call her and leave a phone message that she did this again but you were too traumatized in the session to point it out.

I don't want to say I told you so. I feel bad that you are suffering.

P.S. Good story about your daughter. You guys did something right.

bunny

[Lara]

Dear Longtire,
I  have friends with sons and daughters of probably about the same age as yours, and I just want to tell you that for your daughter to be able to communicate so freely with you is an enormous compliment to you.You really must be a great Dad. Many grown-up children of that age would only be able to share their deepest feelings about their relationships with their friends, and not with a parent.

Please congratulate yourself on that,and try not to beat yourself up by feeling that you have been unable to act in the same way as your daughter did. You have a different history (with your wife,) you are working through your situation, and the future has yet to be written.

Sincerely,
Lara.

[longtire]

Bunny and Lara thank you for your support (and anyone else who is sending good feelings my way!).  I did call and leave a message for the counselor.  I think she is out some or all Friday's, I had a problem reaching her on a Friday once before.  I'll let you know what comes of that.

My head knows and believes that I can only grow when there is struggle and discomfort, but  my heart wants to have some peace and comfort for awhile.  I'm taking a different tack now and continuing to work my stuff when I feel this way.  The real trick is balancing the progress I make with getting enough peace and recharge.  For me meditation and guided imagery seem to help the most.  I haven't really found affirmations to be that helpful, but I'm going to try that some more with a different attitude from reading the affirmations thread...

[bunny]

longtire,

I'm glad you left a message with the counselor!

Even if a therapist is out of the office, they are supposed to check their messages all the time. That's part of their job.  If she doesn't call back, I'm very disappointed in the level of service she's giving you. I hope she does.

bunny