Relationship/s

[lighter]

I'm glad you're feeling less defensive about all the formality, Hops.  My Step Father was all about that, in some ways.... it was very nice. 

I never warmed to being eyeballed at the dinner table, waiting for children's mistakes to be pointed out, and condemned.

But the car door opening, allowing a gentleman to lead in a restaurant when there's no one to seat us..... that was just OK by me. It felt special.... like warmth, and care and love.

I have to say it's annoying to wait for a door to be opened if I can get it over with more quickly, and get on, but there are kindnesses, and respect intended, IME.

I have a little time for those things, still.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

I had wedged the following into a reply on Farm Life, then realized it goes here. It's NOT anywhere near as true now -- M's behaving so much more naturally than he was when he was full-tilt compulsively-obey-fearsome-dead-grandmother's-formalities. I'm much more able to relax (less defensive) with some of his gentility reflexes (mostly on display in others' view). But I amused myself with these metaphors so what the heck:

....I trip over "protectiveness" in M's manly-Latin-man persona, just because it irritates me to bits. That's because unless I'm actually hurt or incapable, I don't NEED it, and it's like a reminder (in my case) of his need to display that he's the strong one, and I need "ushering" (errr, herding) to the table in a restaurant, to wait like a sheep beside the mare (err, chair) or gelding (errr, car door) until he scrambles around to grab the bridle (errrr, chair back/door handle), or to have the saddle cinched (errr, chair pulled out/reins taken) in case I was unaware that's how a horse (err, chair/car) actually works, despite my having arrived on my own (errr, feet on sidewalk/own butt in driver's seat) in the first place.

All my emoticons here are busted so visualize multi LOLs....and yes, I KNOW his intentions are pure and good. It's cultural stuff. What's fun is it's becoming more interesting than irritating with time. And he's beginning to notice how unconscious it is, himself. We still do the ballet but he's less often nearly-knocking-me-down in his devotion to every step of All The Rituals. (He's also seeing I do understand his intentions are not malign. Hardly.)

That did make me laugh, Hops.  I'm glad that you're finding it more interesting than irritating as time goes on.  I do know what you mean.  I'm not a fan of 'fluff' - the unnecessary stuff.  I like people who will muck in and help out.  If I'm under the weather, come and cut the grass - I don't want flowers.  And yes, the man stuff - please do deal with the spiders and go up in the loft but yes, I can open the car door myself lol.  I don't know what I'd do if man rushed to open a car door for me, I don't think that sort of thing is quite so usual here?  I'm struggling to think of a time a man did that for me (unless I had an armload of stuff to carry which, as you say, is when you do need someone to open the door for you).  Maybe we've knocked that out of British men lol xx

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, something Hol & I are actively working on... (re: criticism HEARD but not intended)...

is that we each OWN those attached "implied ulterior meanings" to things within our own minds/emotions and WE are the ones attaching those meanings a lot of times. Yeah, sure, sometimes there really IS a little dig or an unconscious/subconscious implied message involved. But it's not as often as I, or she, thinks... and that defensive reflex needs to get dialed back a little to facilitate actual conversation on the topic/issue.

Might not something similar be happening re: the "meaning" of those old world manners? At least sometimes?

[Hopalong]

Absolutely, Amber. No question about it!

M is just fairly unconscious how desperate his attempts to Obey Grandmother's Dictates Even if You Knock Someone Over Doing It can be.

Fortunately, with a little talk and some hilarity, we've found our own clunky ballet about it. Where it used to terrify my inner feminist it more often amuses me, now.

And what I needed to bring to the interactions is understanding (you should SEE the huge intimidating Central-American-aristocrat grandmother portrait) and humor. I've mostly gotten there.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

That sounds workable Hops - for both of you.

Can you make a post-it mustache to put on Gramma's portrait? LOLOLOL.

[Hopalong]

Amber, that is a BRILLIANT idea! I just may try it.
Except I fear for his mental health when he walks past and sees it unawares...

He really does VENERATE the ancestors. Sheesh. Maybe I need to come up with some hippie pagan ceremony to release their hold on his spirit.

But man, that portrait is tempting. It's the kind of thing one would normally encounter in a museum. I'm sure she loved him and he her, yet it's also a reminder that M grew up in Another World. Old school to the max.

And then he ran off to Berkeley, became a wild rebellious creature, and an obsessively successful historian! He really is brilliant, no exaggeration, and that is SO much fun to be around, most of the time. (Maybe his Grandma-reflexes are a way of holding on to parts of himself that otherwise got scattered to the winds when he left CR and plunged into 60's California culture.)

I love him. He makes me smile. I feel much happier and safer in life because of him. There's no understating what a difference he's made. I am LUCCCCCKKKKKYYYY.

Gratitude is my favorite emotion, and this is my favorite holiday. I need to remind myself to tune into it every single day.

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I'm really glad things are going so well and you're happy, Hops.  You deserve to be happy so very much.  I'm reminded a little of when you first got Pooch - I seem to remember it was difficult at first and you were wondering if you should keep her or not?  But then it all settled down and became a full on love situation.  M is now Pooch   Lol.  I'm really pleased it's all going so well, even with Granny on the wall xx

[Hopalong]

Thank you, (((((((((Tupp))))))))))).

We do have some issues but are still doing couples counseling, just slowly,
since we signed up at a time when we were about to travel and same for him.
So I'm sure there will be some difficult work ahead, but equally sure we're both committed to doing our best with it.

We've slowed the pace of working out when/how to live together, which he says depends on selling his property in Costa Rica first. We'll find out. I try not to worry about that, although "am I leaving my little house?" looms. I guess the clear answer is of course I am. Just don't know when or where or how. That uncertainty is difficult for me but I understand his plan.

It's a real comfort to come here and summarize and spot-check everything as it goes along.

Big hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

M IS Pooch, Tupp! You got it!
I refuse to rub his belly, however.

She has become a beautiful sort of catalyst-connection-conveyance between us. I just love the interactions we have "through" her. Lots of laughter and affection and goofiness. He genuinely loves her and she has dropped her last resistance to him. It's been sweet to watch unfold.

And maybe she helped us get easier with our own affection too. It's far from "calm" but there are moments when we're settling down to an easy companionship. We went through some tensions, that's for sure. But something kept us trying and working at it, and now it keeps getting better.

One BIG thing is the couples-T. He's verrrrry insightful, to the point that even Brilliant M (who often slips into professor-who-knows-more-than-anyone-anywhere mode, alas) comes out excited, praising the T's "penetrating questions." We both feel really good about it and are, as I'd hoped, learning a lot more about each other with T's guidance. It feels very very good.

He controls M's interruptions and holds him to account for being dismissive on occasion. And he doesn't let me off the hook either. The nicest thing (which I never felt to this depth ever when I tried counseling with two husbands in the past) is that M and I feel CLOSER when we come out, MUTUALLY motivated and excited to be learning.

One invaluable thing I find in M is his eagerness to learn, which is evident in counseling despite the professor ego. Once we get into relationship issues, he seems open and fascinated and dedicated, and it really encourages me.

This is the first time I've been in early-days couple counseling and I'm experiencing a whole different kind of hope.

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I think that sense that you're both working on it and genuinely want it to work is such a good thing, Hops, and so much nicer than what often happens, which is that couples go to counselling when nothing else has worked and neither one of them can really be bothered any more.  It's great that you got into it sooner rather than later.  Good on you for putting the idea forward and good on M for being so engaged with the process and so open to trying it out and doing something new.

The therapist sounds great.  You need someone who is almost like a referee.  It must be difficult counseling couples as you have to mind two sets of needs and wants, without letting one dominate over the other.  He sounds like a good find.

And I think pets can be such a good barometer of how things are around them.  The fact that Pooch and M are getting on so well is a good sign.  I'm really pleased that you are working through this together and that things are moving forward and giving you hope for the future   It's really lovely to read xx

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Tupp.
Wish you and son and the whole board were here so we could have a celebratory potluck! Lighter cooks, Amber splits wood (even though I don't have a fireplace), CB decorates, Bettyanne roasts her toes and relaxes, Mud bellows carols and Doc G takes notes. Anybody I left out comes by unexpectedly to drag us all outside to build snowpeople. (Even though there's no snow yet.)

Reality seems so...optional, sometimes.

Dunno if I mentioned that this couples-T is a sikh. When I first saw him my heart sank. But even in the first session his questions were so intelligent and his kindness evident. I had a huge struggle when I got home and explained to M that I would need one more "consultation" before I could decide whether to work with him (which I did because M had responded so positively). M was fine with it.

So in session 2 I just laid out all my baggage about religion, particulary the kind which includes gurus, and men-in-religion (my ex boss/wannabe N-guru, my grandfather-preacher who abused his daughters, my years-ago Christian therapist whom I saw despite initial hesitation because he seemed kind and I didn't want to prejudge but who pressured me into marrying my second husband because he was uncomfortable with me being single and sexually active--which he didn't let on until after the disastrous wedding night/honeymoon, my recently-ex minister who manipulated and berated congregants and projected his many issues onto us, and twisted things that happen in the culture now because of religion.

He listened very patiently, as did M. I told him I was concerned that because his religion is difficult to forget about because he wears it on his head (turban) and face (beard) I might have difficulty trusting him. He explained that he converted in the 60s when he was entirely f**d up and had met a group of people who were into it, and while he lived there (a communal thing, very common then) he would follow along and one day said to himself, I need a structure for myself, these people are good, and I just need to make a commitment, so he did. (I also told him one reason I was willing was that I had a kind sikh friend at church and that I had read enough to know that the skih scriptures stipulate that women and men are equal in every way.) It was a LOAD.

Anyhow, his answers were reasonable, transparent, and I just stopped fearing it. And now I'm glad I did. I don't share his vocabulary about "the divine in all people" but I do know what he means and feel at peace with it.

My own scraps of faith (undiagnosed faith, hah) have been severely depleted by what's gone on at my church, which makes me really sad. I read about all the typical activities coming up and am entirely uninspired. BUT...we will eventually be past the holiday period (which is painful) and within a year, will have a new minister. I may just wait until then to start going back to see how things are.

Big ramble...
hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Well I'm impressed that you were able to go in and tell him all of that, Hops, because I know with me that sort of unpacking scares me silly and I avoid it and have just not gone back to T's I didn't feel comfortable with.  Something for me to work on in the future   I'm glad he was able to allay your fear and yes, I have to say I don't have a lot of faith in religion, for similar reasons.  The endless focus on virgins bothers me enormously along with the never ending stream of child abuse cases that seem to just keep coming.  Then there are the Magdalen laundries in Ireland, horrifying stories of the abuse that went on there and it's something that I read a lot about over the years due to my dad's Irish roots.  I would have felt uncomfortable too, but I wouldn't have been as brave as you to tell him   I'm glad he has turned out to be such a good egg xx

[lighter]

I didn't realize you'd chosen a particular T. 

This wonderful experience with a Sikh male T might be more healing than if you'd ended up with anyone else.   

To be heard, feel understood, embrace and be embraced.... and feel safe enough to speak your truth with these guys is very special, IME.  I'm so glad things are going well.

Thanks for that update, Hops.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

I don't like it when M explains to me what my feelings are about.

He explains EVERYTHING in all circumstances. Professoritis.

I can handle it mostly, and often enjoy it. But not always.

Feeling building anxiety about the big trip. Need to focus.

SOOOOO glad I have both-T appointments tomorrow!

Arrrrgggghhhh,
Hops

[lighter]

How did T go, Hops?

You're so good at speaking with compassion..... I can imagine it's hard to get your point across.

I sure hope the T straightened it out: )

Lighter