Relationship/s

[Twoapenny]

The trip sounds amazing, Hops.  I'm so glad M's family were so welcoming and made you feel so at home.  I'm sorry you picked up a bug, though!  I hope that clears up soon and doesn't leave you too wiped out.

The travel plans sound amazing and a jet set life style has its appeal.  I get what you're saying about the jet lag, health problems, dog sitter costs and carbon guilt, though.  It's difficult to find a balance between making the most of opportunities and not leaving yourself skint and worn out in the process.  So I hope there's a mid point you can find because traveling around a bit sounds lovely.

The insecurity/anxiety/narcissism bit is a difficult one.  I'm glad you've got T's, both alone and together to guide you through it.  I do wonder about the boundaries between various neurological conditions and personality and/or mental health problems.  I've been thinking about my own mum and wondering that if she is an undiagnosed autistic, possibly born to another undiagnosed autistic, parenting possibly two undiagnosed autistics - in a world where autism was still misunderstood and almost undetected in women - if the experience of not being heard, seen, accepted as she is or was triggered the other stuff that happened over the years.  So I do wonder how many of these things overlap and intertwine.  All of that is theoretical, though.  I think, in practical terms, what matters, is whether those 'dodgy' bits are things we can cope with and that don't harm us?  And I guess that is different for each of us.  Our experiences from family members can make us more sensitive, which can be good or bad, depending on which way you look at it   But you are a smart cookie and you have good professional help, plus M does seem genuinely interested in working on the relationship with you (I kind of think an N would be blaming you for the situation and not accepting they might have a part to play?  He seems to be willing to accept he might need to change a bit to keep your fire burning ).  I hope you can find a way through, whichever way it might be.  I am looking forward to catching upon all the other threads xx

[Hopalong]

Thanks very much, Tupp. Insightful and on-point as ever.
I really appreciate what you said here:

M does seem genuinely interested in working on the relationship with you (I kind of think an N would be blaming you for the situation and not accepting they might have a part to play?  He seems to be willing to accept he might need to change a bit to keep your fire burning

You're right about all this. I think it's why I'm still with him, when I've ended other relationships over less. The sweet, good, core of M keeps showing me over and over that this is very real and sincere to him, and that beside whatever less-romantic motives he may have, M really does value me deeply. We may have somewhat different notions of love but I believe we're offering each other our realest selves to the degree we can access them. I think his anxiety, over-proving, over-talking, over-persuading behavior is just a lifelong drive he's had to prove himself, for core family issues he's never really unpacked. Including being a golden child in a wealthy family parented more by servants, though he maintains great love for his parents. He's still compensating for something. But his playful, open and exuberant nature, plus the brilliance, are wonderful qualities to be around.

Whew. I'm just very grateful that he is so open and willing to do "whatever it takes" for our relationship. Maybe it's because I seem like a last major goal to him. Maybe it's because his brief months as a widower overwhelmed him (lot of silence). Maybe it's because all the ways we DO "get: each other are as remarkable to him as he declares they are. Or I'm cute and purty and witty. Or something.

I do love him. I just don't believe love is all you need. We're doing the work, and I think what's hard for him is the pace. He'd like to rush from episodes of intense happiness directly to GOAL. Buy the house get married and it's ANCHORED. I think he views me as an anchor he's desperate not to lose. I don't want to lose him either. I think going back to life and my image of old age before I met him could be very bleak. But I've got a deep determination to build a foundation that is real and not fantasy based.

BTW, I was relieved when he found out that Buenos Aires would be too close to the start of the academic year. Enough trips in the quiver for me....

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

It is good that he's open to working on things, Hops, and I'm so happy to hear that the lovely bits about him are still very much evident (I think if it was show to woo you in the early days it would be fading by now).  He does sound like a caring person and yep, I can see that he may have had to prove himself endlessly throughout his life and it's deeply ingrained in him now.  And I think you're right; you do need more than love and a real foundation rather than a picture of what you hope it might be like (as you mentioned on the other thread about visualising relationships and then being crushed when they don't work out).  Real and imperfect as opposed to pretend and endlessly wonderful   I'm am keeping all fingers crossed that things continue to work out for you xx

[lighter]

Hops:

I think travel is very stressful, IME. 

It's a testament to how well you and M are doing that you not only enjoyed each other very much, but you also enjoyed meeting his family, and forming new attachments.

I think M truly does love and value you as a companion, and partner.  He cares what you think and feel.  He wants to come to a place where you're both happy, and he seems to be working very hard to that end.

I'm very happy for you both.

Hope you feel better soon.

Lighter   

[sKePTiKal]

How're you feeling Hops? Over the bug?

What happening with you & M? Still smooth sailing? Starting to relax with and into each other yet?

[Hopalong]

You're right, Tupp:

Real and imperfect as opposed to pretend and endlessly wonderful

That's exactly it. When I talked to him about "building the foundation" he was very receptive. I think a lot of tension has evaporated recently because of two things:
--I haven't budged and he's still wonderful
--We've shelved-for-now one struggle we were having (his panic over sexual intimacy because of his surgery, which I had compassion for but was ultimately unable to relax with because he over-ran me in a very vulnerable state like a bulldozer in his anxiety, so he gets to work on that for now with his own T...unless later we try again, which I'm sure we will)
--He's more than willing to do couples-T. I have a feeling we'll see big benefits rather quickly. The relief we both felt after even the preliminary sessions was clear.

Lighter, you're right. I believe he genuinely loves me too. It's been nine months and my trust in him and his intentions has increased a lot. He IS working at it. I'm not as much. But I think that's the real situation and I'm okay with that. When I do have to dig deep, I will. But for now I'm holding some information and questions for couples-T. M still has a lot to do about learning to listen. Meanwhile, we play well together and always enjoy each other's company. I was in a sad/bad mood the other day and told him I ought not to expose him, had nothing to do with us...and he called and so sweetly told me to come over no matter what mood I was in, he loved me as I am, I could not listen to him, and we'd put on great music, and I went and he was just lovely and my bad mood turned happy. This appears to be what being loved feels like! He wasn't (for a change) being controlling, just kind.

Skep, bug is 90% gone, though this cold snap won't help.

We are definitely beginning to relax together more. We are truly a "WE." The trip and the family happies was significant (and Costa Rica for the others will be a big deal too -- verrrrry different from the young California families). CR is where all the headstones and generations of Big Deal Family History and Upper Social Strata Hyper-Wealth stuff is concentrated. I am un-intimidated (ancient history, but first boyfriend's family had similar resources) but very curious. I know his sister will be great. Turns out his industrialist brother is deeply evangelical (Central America crazytown style) and am glad I know that. I can handle folks of all sorts because I just go with kindness and warmth and usually all goes well. M is much loved, greatly admired, etc. in that place. I am curious to see how he manages all those ancient heavy vibes. I'm glad he hasn't sold his condo there yet so we'll have a peaceful place to retreat to. I'm packing light and basically bringing myself. As is.

We are enjoying each other much more now. Decided to keep Tgiving simple (he had been talking about cooking and hosting and I said I'd sous-chef but generally have downplayed and detached from holidays for a decade). So we're going to a potluck at my church, a place he's curious about but hasn't explored, which he thinks will be interesting.

ONE thing I'm clear about with M is that he has NOOOOOO tolerance for boredom and to be happy requires steady stimulation. I don't feel obliged to entertain him (although evidently I often do, since our conversations are very lively) ... but this strikes me as the perfect way to avoid stress and keep his brain busy!

Should be good. And thanks for checking in about us.

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

A simple Thanksgiving sounds like the best kind, Hops.  I love simplicity, whichever form it takes.  I think there's something really warm about it - like it's the intention that matters, not how much money you spend or how fancy everything is.  I like that.

I do wonder if M has spent a lot of time around people who wanted or needed him to be in control - lead the conversation, make the decisions, tell everyone what to do.  Some lead and some follow.  I know there are times when I feel like everyone I know is waiting for me to tell them what to do and how to do it (and I used to as well, these days I tend not to).  I think it's amazing that he's willing to make attempts to keep things good between you.  What you said about him being so kind when you were in a bad mood was so sweet.  It all sounds very lovely xx

[Hopalong]

Me too, Tupp. I love simple entertaining, celebrating, etc. M has an affinity for formality, but that's fine. I know all the rules and tricks from being sous-chef and butler for so many of my parents' dinner parties (and Nmom's obsession with formal etiquette). If M wants to do those now and then, I can help and participate. But the rest of the time, just having friends stop by as they are is what makes me happiest.

I've noticed that we've socialized a ton with my friends, casually and easily. But M's friendships seem to be all based in colleague relationships. I do think they're his friends, but there's a level of professors-at-salon to it that's a little lacking for me. I know he loves intellectual discourse better than just about anything. But I don't know of a male friend he'd call for help if he was injured or depressed. I think in his life it's more been women who've been the people to be close to. With his male friends, the egos and intellectual competitiveness are always on display.

I need both. People who come by in holey Tshirts and some with whom I have dynamic conversations about life and relationships and the country, etc. A lot looser.

Maybe I'm providing that freer connection for M. And he's providing stability for me.

As to M's controlling/leading side...I think some of that he enjoys (too much!) and some is a burden from family expectations. I hope he continues in therapy and learns more about himself. I hope as he gets older, those insights will be as interesting to him as studying cultural histories has been. He seems amazed when the penny drops and he makes a connection about something psychological. Not as much of a navel-gazer as I am, but he does have a curious mind.

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

It's nice that he's keen to learn, Hops, and that he sees it as a good thing to venture into.  Yes, I like a range of people, I think most guys I know tend to have work related friends rather than any other kind.  I don't know if work is a bigger part of their lives?  Whereas a lot of women fit it around kids, home and looking after older relatives (not that men don't do these things but I think often women do more of that).  So perhaps we come into contact with a wider range of people.  I think you sound like a good mix for each other xx

[Hopalong]

Definitely, CB!
I understand it; it just saddens me for him. (And it also can put a bit of extra stress on the female in a relationship if a man has little closeness with male friends. I notice M is basically mostly "masked", even with the men he's known for years.) But I agree he's past able to change this much, and I'm content being his person, not expecting to change that!

I don't mind the occasional more formal thing and am happy to sous-chef. M doesn't do those events that often, and he's always happy to get together with my friends which is casual and usually fun, except when he dominates conversation to the point I feel embarrassed. (One time though, a gathering included a couple of gay women, and when he tried his usual running the conversation the one next to him just ignored him and kept talking, unimpressed. I was glad! I don't think he's been around that many women who push back directly.) I continue to see my friends alone and always will. So when he really craves full-on dinner party stuff, I'm glad to go along.

Despite all the above, we're doing well. Love feelings intact, and our next meeting with the counselor tomorrow. A lot of tension has drained away since he agreed to do this, with no reluctance at all. We still have a few areas to work through about intimacy, which I'll find difficult to talk about in a room with two males, but we'll get there. (Or we'll go off to another T at some point who specializes.)

It's work, but it's worth it. I generally delight in his company. He turned up last night with a huge bunch of roses for no reason. And he's adorable with my pooch.

Hugs
Hops

[lighter]

I'm glad you're still doing OK with M, Hops.

I hope the next T appointment gives you lots of good information to make decisions on.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Tupp and Light.

I don't so much think it's decision-making (or in the short-term) that's my goal.
For me, for now, my goal in couples-T is to literally use the presence of the T as a guardrail, to help us listen to and learn more about each other.

M often seems SOOOO overstimulated and giddy in my presence that mature mutual dialogue is hard. Though he's been calmer and more adult with me lately. What I enjoy with the T is that interrupting is derailed, the pace calms, and when M is holding forth I can observe him quietly, and vice versa.

Early days, but I'm enjoying this process. It may sometimes be a bit like being a loving witness to some individual-T work on M's part, but I'm sitting there.

hugs
Hops

[CB123]

Your comment about the giddyness and overstimulation making conversation difficult, is interesting, Hops.

Do you have a handle on what is behind that? You know I have seen that kind of thing sometimes in my kids. Do you feel like he is just like that with you, or with everyone?

Pretty wise of you two to have a way to work this out with professional early on.

CB

[Hopalong]

CB, I honestly think it's the H in ADHD.
(I have the A and two Ds, but rarely the H part.)

M is a whirlwind at times. In the earlier part of our relationship, he was very anxious and hyper and ... giddy. I think he didn't know what to make of me but felt desperate after his huge loss to not lose me.

Since recent months, we've settled into a layer of commitment where he's calmed down, trusts my commitment is real if not quite as complete as his. And over time I've also communicated to him how that manic freaked-out stuff (which I think he thought was entertaining) was actually shredding my nerves. I think he was so caught up in his own feelings that it actually took him quite a while to observe that this over-the-top pursuit and over-reaction to Every Single Thing was not flattering me, it was overwhelming me.

The automatic fill-the-air-with-words (fear of silence) is still there, but better lately. It feels miraculous but I'm enjoying him more and more.

Thanks for asking, hon!

Hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

I had wedged the following into a reply on Farm Life, then realized it goes here. It's NOT anywhere near as true now -- M's behaving so much more naturally than he was when he was full-tilt compulsively-obey-fearsome-dead-grandmother's-formalities. I'm much more able to relax (less defensive) with some of his gentility reflexes (mostly on display in others' view). But I amused myself with these metaphors so what the heck:

....I trip over "protectiveness" in M's manly-Latin-man persona, just because it irritates me to bits. That's because unless I'm actually hurt or incapable, I don't NEED it, and it's like a reminder (in my case) of his need to display that he's the strong one, and I need "ushering" (errr, herding) to the table in a restaurant, to wait like a sheep beside the mare (err, chair) or gelding (errr, car door) until he scrambles around to grab the bridle (errrr, chair back/door handle), or to have the saddle cinched (errr, chair pulled out/reins taken) in case I was unaware that's how a horse (err, chair/car) actually works, despite my having arrived on my own (errr, feet on sidewalk/own butt in driver's seat) in the first place.

All my emoticons here are busted so visualize multi LOLs....and yes, I KNOW his intentions are pure and good. It's cultural stuff. What's fun is it's becoming more interesting than irritating with time. And he's beginning to notice how unconscious it is, himself. We still do the ballet but he's less often nearly-knocking-me-down in his devotion to every step of All The Rituals. (He's also seeing I do understand his intentions are not malign. Hardly.)