Friendship Issues

[Hopalong]

Maybe we could use a thread sometimes to just air out issues with friends: good, bad or in between. I'll start with one that this comment from Tupp on her 2020 thread describes:

it still makes me sad that so many women put up with such unhappy relationships, they've been having problems for years and it's just kept limping along, personally I think they will get back together so I've been careful to be supportive without directly criticising him (I've burnt my fingers like that before!)

I am struggling with that careful support in one case. My close friend R, also a poet, whom I love dearly....has accepted abuse in the past, probably due to a very early instance of abuse in her childhood in another country. Later, her first husband beat her. She is a deeply sensitive, smart person who has struggled her whole life with confidence and self esteem. We met about 10 years ago and gradually built a close friendship, and she's my main "backyard visitor" during the pandemic.

A few years ago she married a lovely man then lost him a year and a half later to pancreatic cancer, a real tragedy. It was then I got the first inkling of how dependent she feels. Within two weeks she was back online, searching for a new partner. I knew she had truly loved that husband so that confused me. Over time, she shared that she feels she absolutely CANNOT live alone.

Long story shorter: She quickly chose and allowed to move in a man with multiple marriages in his history, from a rough background which in his case was also abusive, and you can guess the rest. He doesn't hit her but he regularly attacks her verbally in ways that cut deep. She has called me sobbing more than a few times. And has spent hours compassionately trying to explain his issues. I don't hate the man and do feel compassion for him, though I don't like him much (patriarchal, condescending). Under the stresses of the pandemic I've learned more about her too, that she can be verbally "slicey" too when she feels defensive. On balance, I've come to see it as an unhealthy and untenable relationship and it saddens me a lot to think she'll spend her "golden years" walking on eggs around a bully.

And, because I do care a lot, I find I get very tigery when I hear about the latest instance of his unkindness. She'll come to me feeling devastated, and hearing the pain in her voice makes me mad. Over time, she got to a point a week or so back where she said "I'm done" and I heaved a huge sigh of relief. But then, as is common with these cycles, she's now rationalizing it as "not that bad" and so forth. She is beginning therapy this week, which is wonderful. I've been suggesting it for a long time. She goes and quits, usually, I think because to go deep within herself is scary. I do understand why she might not want to leave him during the pandemic, but it's beginning to wear on me to realize that the big energy I've expended over and over to help her love herself, isn't really accomplishing anything. I'm excited she's going back into therapy but it's hard to hear her prop herself up and begin to make plans, and then slide right back into denial. Toxic.

What I want to work on in this friendship is more detachment and less advice, for sure. I absolutely want to keep supporting her, and will. But the reason I started this thread was in recognition that not only is my support not able to accomplish much for her (though therapist and lawyer referrals were good)...but it's beginning to depress me too. I bet that is codependency on my part.

My goal is to care as much as ever but express it ONLY in terms of being there for her no matter what she decides. "What do you think you want to do?" is the only question I should ask. I'm relieved beyond measure that she's into therapy again.

I think her cycle of venting for hours and crying and needing support is just human. I've been glad to do that probably both for codependent reasons and also because it's nice to make a difference. She listens to me caringly too, which is beyond valuable. I'm feeling I need to change my approach AND keep our friendship. I think she is ready to do that too, to take more of it to a therapist and be proactive.

That's it! Just thought it might help from time to time to describe a friendship issue here. Most of my friendships are in pretty good shape, but since at age 70 one doesn't find new close friends that easily, so I want to tend well the ones I have.

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Aw Hops, it is difficult, almost all of my friendships used to be like that!  And I found it very tiring and draining, particularly as, with me, I only tended to hear from people when they wanted a couple of hours of free therapy.

I am a lot more detached now.  I'm happy to listen to friends talk through a problem if they're trying to solve a problem and are willing/able to do something about their situation.  And obviously if someone's going through something like a bereavement that's a different situation, but ongoing man drama is beyond my patience level these days.  I'm 99% certain my friend and her hubby will be back together within the next week or so and it's alright - it's not my life, my problem or my situation.  We talked for a long time yesterday but mostly about things other than hubby.  I think "what do you think you'll do?" is a good question, Hopsie.  Puts the ball back in the other person's court.

I just started writing a really long thing about the friend who it hurt me the most to walk away from and it upset me so much I deleted it all.  I think it's been harder for me to leave them then for them to find someone else to talk to, in all honesty.  I hope you can find a good balance with your friend.

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Tupp. I hope she and I can find a healthy balance too. Some good news is that she shows awareness of the pattern (so much venting to me) and said something about how this may not be fair to me. Same time, she does not want to be pushed into making a decision, and I acknowledged that I get triggered by her pain and then get very opinionated about what she deserves (and doesn't). If I'm honest, I have pushed her to confront her belief that she can never be alone, and also urged her to imagine new options. She does have them--housemates, income is fine, etc. But part of my pushing is about my own discomfort, and hearing someone I love being emotionally abused by their partner triggers me a bunch. So my job is to figure out how to keep a good boundary around my own vulnerability, while supporting her as best I can.

I think we both care about our friendship and are both psychologically oriented to learn about what makes people, including ourselves, tick. That makes me more hopeful than if she had no self-awareness. But she does. She's been held back by great fear and a lot of fantasizing, but she's trying to tap into inner strength.

I'm just so very glad she has a therapist now (or is shopping for one). And I'm going to address this with my own T as well, because my self-awareness is far from perfect.

There's a good chance she will leave the area to go across the country to live with her daughter if her present relationship ends, so I'm likely to lose regular contact with her anyway. Sounds cold, but I need to detach more to protect myself in that instance too. I won't stop caring but I need to improve the way I do it.

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I think there's real promise if both friends are aware of the dynamic and/or willing to work on it a bit or make compromises.  Unfortunately for me I think I put boundaries in place far too late and I hadn't realised before that the relationships were very one-sided.  I think I'd basically just become a free counselling service to a lot of people and when the free counselling was withdrawn they went elsewhere.

I think the other difficulty I've experienced with boundaries (and I know I've done this myself) is that if you have very low self esteem then a boundary can sound like a criticism or a judgement.  I've had to work really hard on not taking a no, or a 'not right now' as a personal rejection and I still find it difficult to manage.  I know with my older sister, who I loved to bits, that when I asked her to stop turning up unannounced in floods of tears wanting to talk through her current saga and instead either phone ahead to check it was okay and/or come round sometimes when she was in a good mood and just wanted to have a laugh I literally never saw her again.  She took it as a massive 'never come near me again' when it wasn't meant that way but it was just never possible to have a relationship that didn't involve me holding her hand through every thing that she wasn't able to cope with.

I think part of the problem for me - and this is another thing that rings an autism bell with me - is that I prefer people to be direct with me, and me with them.  And a timely example - the group lady messaged me yesterday, very nice message asking how we were, how was it all going and so on.  Messages went back and forth - I do like her and would like to be in contact with her, just not in a 'work' way.  The upshot was she was writing a document and wanted some help with it.  I'd have preferred her to just message and say, "I've got this thing to do, is there any chance you can have some input".  Because otherwise I feel like I've been buttered up a bit and that messes with my sense of trust with people (which is already quite dodgy), plus it feels to me like a waste of time (I'm happy to be in contact with her in a friendly way, but only if she's genuinely interested as well).  And because everything's been very oblique and hinted at rather than stated I feel that if I bring it up (with a view to building a decent friendship with her) then she can say it isn't what she was trying to do and so the circle starts again.  I find all of that very destabilising, yet equally find a lot of people don't like me being direct with them and pull back - as I've found with friends in the past when they break up with their partners, I say "Thank God for that, he's such a twat," and then they're back together a week later   Lol

Anyway, all of that is me indirectly saying I get it   So much for directness lol.  I hope you and your friend can find a way to wander through the situation together, Hops.