Still trying to detach

[erryT]

I was married for 20 years and finally got the courage to leave an Nhusband.  He doesn't think he has any problems though, I am the problem.  OUr married life would've been just fine, if only I could be happy.  But I couldn't stay happy for long because he little by little, tactic by tactic tried to erode my self esteem...and eroded it is, because I feel so awful and now that we're divorced, I am beating myself up with negative talk and inner critic stuff.  We were in counseling many times along the way.  The marriage was just so much work...I got burnt out.  I denied all the red flags...I came to realize that it was a marriage based on power over and not mututality.  He didn't beat me, he is a good provider, spends a lot of time with the kids, so many good qualities.  But in the one-on-one relationship, he was a monster.  When I discovered the concept of Narcissum, I could relate so much.  I say he is the offspring of an Nparent.  Anyways, the struggle I have now is that I can't stop thinking about him...all the destructive things he said and did and how he pretty much orchestrated my abandonment of him.  I feel such loss and grief and I just want to be able to move on...I know the marriage was not good for me.  I am physically and financially independent now but haven't been able to emotionally move on from this long-term destructive relationship.  I feel so disentegrated and sad.  I want to feel happy again.

[clara]

Wow, are we married to the same man?!  I have this N-husband who is exactly how you describe yours. No, he doesn't beat me physically. (Emotionally yes, every time!!)  No he doesn't have addictions or affairs, and yes he is a good provider and spends lots of time with kids. In fact he is very "good" with the kids because he never says no to them.

But to me, his wife, it's a different story. He says yes to the kids while going against my rules, undermining me in front of them and behind my back.

HE is arrogant, pompous, uncaring, and extremely convoluted in evry meaningful conversation. In fact his whole perception of our 21-year marriage is so convluted it makes me sick.

His biggest hang-up is money.  Up until the last few years, when my self-esteem was low and I didn't know better (I was raised by N-parents) he had me CONVINCED that I was a wreckless shop-o-holic who ruined all his financial dreams. HUH!!  I never missed a monthly payment, never exceeded our credit, never spent beyond our means.  After being married for only five years to this guy we had a little bungalo paid off -- not bad savings for a young couple newly graduated from university.  But his preception? That I could never handle money!!

And how he has twisted and distorted things to make me actually believe that it was ME with the power in the relationship. No, no, no!! When I look back I see clearly (as do many others we know as well as our marriage therapist) that it was ALWAYS N-husband with control and final say over where we lived, if we sould move (or not), how much to spend, where to send our kids to shcool, where our holidays were spent, etc., etc.

This is a guy who cannot follow a meaningful conversation because he has no capacity to give a rat's a@# about anyone else's needs.

My means of coping lately has been though an emotional affair with a married man who is equally lonely and lost.  We sometimes talk four times a day, sharing secrets and feelings beyond what we could ever share with our spouse. (I tried braking it off with him, as you'll read in an earlier post, but we are way too far gone at this point).  Now how pathetic is that!!

Yes, I want to be free from this man, just as you are finally free from your N-husband.  I recently came very close, even bought a house (he refused to leave the house and threatened to soak me in court if I fought him) and a puppy.  But then we told the kids (ages 16, 13 and 7), and all hell broke loose. They went nuts.  Their N-dad twisited things around, saying he had no idea why mommoy was doing this, leaving the family to find herself kind of bull sh@# (ha!! we were having shared custody and he FORCED me to move out if I wanted to leave him).

Anyway, I (once again) threw in the towel with him, saying that I just couldn't go through with it because of the hurt this would cause the kids.  Now get this: He was actually moved to tears bacuase (as he just told me yesterday) said that  I 'finally realized" that leaving HIM would have been a big mistake.  HULLOOOO!! I said I was staying in because of the KIDS, not HIM!!

When we go to therapy I come out feeling sick. The therapist I guess has to form this stupid "therapeutic alliance" with my N-husband, and so tries to balance off his comments to him with comments to me.  Which would be fair except that his negative comments to me are based on N-husband's false, twisted and distorted accusations about me.  The therapist does acknowledge, though, that I experience feelings of voicelessness in this marriage (hence finding this forum).

How old are your kids?   Is it the kids that bring the second thoughts to you?  Or do you tend to get "lost" thinking about those neutral times with him (let's face it, there probably were never any GREAT, WARM, ENJOYABLE times if your husband was truly a N).  But those neutral times.  Gee, if only you could hold onto the relationship by living in neutral mode with him.  And we know how to do that, don't we?  Just small talk, always agree with him, never mention your needs or criticize him.

The problem with that tact for me, though, is my pattern of getting emotionally involved with lonely married men at work.  Oh, how we can find each other.

Please tell me more about your feelings of loss and regret, now that you are clearly on the other side. My therapist says to expect feelings of sadness and sorrow over the loss of the 21-year marriage, and that's OK.  (Actually I mostly feel sorrow when thinking about the effects on our kids, not losing him).

Thanks for your honest sharing.

Please, let's keep this one going.

[erryT]

Hi Clara:

Thanks for your response.  I am technically impaired so I am not sure if I am posting this right (lots of self-doubt!)  I do not have any regret for getting out, I know if I was going to live any type of meaningful life that I had to go through the pain and loss of a divorce, so no regrets, just huge amounts of sadness and grief.

With the kids, it was like he was in competition with me for their love.  He always made me the bad guy and him the good guy.  When they were little and he started undermining me, I would try to explain to him what was happening, but he would say something like "its just bedtime, what's a few extra minutes" (mimimizing).  He doesn't understand that they love their mother and father differently.  He has never said no to my kids.  Talk about entitlement!  He doesn't know where he ends and my daughter begins.  She is a high school athlete (athleticism from me, guess I was good for something).    My poor son is an underachiever.  The whole kid thing is just another set of issues to deal with.  But I decided that I needed to get out and get myself straightened out, so I could help them.  

I am very afraid of his anger.  All I ever wanted was his love and approval.  He gave me so much attention during courtship.  I am the sixth of 8 kids so when he paid all that attention to me I thought I was something special.  Didn't know it was a set-up to be controlled.  

My divorce story is convoluted.  I didn't want to do restraining orders and court battles and all that, I just didn't want to be married to him anymore and wanted to cause the least amount of disruption and trauma to the kids.  Of course, I put my needs at the end of the list and I have paid for it.  I hope someday I see that it was worth it.   So we sat down and agreed that the marriage was over and how would we end it.  In a nutshell we mediated the divorce and I moved out of the house.  The thing I've learned is that Ns twist and turn things to their benefit.  They are very situational.  Well it was a good faith agreement and he has violated three major points on it, but because they weren't spelled out, I have no legal recourse.  That's okay, but going to court with an N is a frigin nightmare...I didn't want to do it.  Again, I am afraid of his anger, even though he never hit or threatened to hit me.  My three goals were to get out, get a place of my own so I could have the kids and then have shared physical custody.  I succeeded on the first two, but he wouldn't agree to shared physical (set me up) so I am the "visiting parent" and I pay him child support  (kids are 16 and 14).  I went to work full-tme when we were mediating.  So I could get angry and scream about how it's not fair, but you know what...when your're involved with an N, fairness doesn't exist.  My exN didn't play fair and he certainly doesn't fight fair...I have to except this...and this is what is so sad for me....that the man I entrusted my life to, the man I bore children with, the man I loved..can treat me so coldly.  So somedays I am just consumed with sadness and why did it have to be this way.  And then somedays, I say girl you should feel proud of yourself, you got out!  My friends tell me how courageous I was.  The reality was that it was so unhealthy.  I don't want to get involved with anyone yet.  In fact, a friend of mine was over one night when I was feeling really sad and anxious (week prior to going to court for share physical custody) and he went into a 20 minute tirade about how I had nothing to be sad about and went on about his miserable life and the injustices of life in general.  I got up and opened the door and asked him to leave.  You see, I set a new boundary...I don't need someone telling me not to cry...Oh no from now on, when a flag goes up, I am seeing it....I am a big girl now and can take of myself...I am not buying into anyone else's story...I am living my story.  It's just so sad.

[Alan]

erryT:

You're doing what needs to be done.  We all went thru varying degrees of the same thing.  Time, sharing, and knowledge are the building blocks.

I believe in the power of words.  I hope you don't want to feeling happy again, I hope you want to be happy again.

I can't find it but an article was entitle that same thing as what my N used to say "I just want to be happy".  Remember, based on research, Ns are very happy on the outside, but, deep down, are never happy on the inside.

My N would say how happy she was and how there is no tension or confrontation since I left.  Sure, I would remind her of how selfish, unempathetic, and non communicative she was.  So now it's gone she can live in her little life of denial.  With her N daughter.  And her mother who was a contributor way back in the beginning.  But we pick up the pieces.

They will never find what you will find in the future.  They don't know real love and never will. They only know what they know and almost defiantly refuse to learn or change.  They leave roadkill.  The more you read and research, the more you will come to understand this.  I know my N has walked out on her last chance for true connection, true health, true love.

It isn't always going to be like this.

[clara]

Oh my god, erryT, how your husband and mine are alike.  There was no way I was going to court with this guy either, because he is so connected to lawyers in his work, and quite respected in the field.  Our marriage therapist says I was crazy to not at least get a lawyer for myself, but he just doesn't understand the power an N has over a spouse with low self-esteem.  He, like your husband, has already tried pulling a few stunts with the home equity and child custody agreements that I accepted on his word.  And he, like yours, will say anything to the kids to undermine me and make himslef look so injured by meam mommy.  (Funny thing, but at dinner time or when we are all togeter in the van, the kids NEVER even bother talking to their dad, it's always me.  They learned at an early age that dad doesn't really care about what they have to say.  

And Alan, like your ex, this guy has no capacity for empathy. He often whines that I stop him from "ever really being happy," because I "spend so much" (he is money obsessed) and so he "could never" buy anything for himself (the guy has no capacity to buy for himself cause he always figures that hoarding money would bring more happiness.  As you said, Alan, these N's are truly miserable anyway, and happinjess will always evade them.

I have been going nuts over the last week, with insomnia and weeping sporadically. My own therapist (not marriage therapist) says that I am going WAY TOO far in terms of sparing the children's feelings and staying with this guy who I cannot love (to put it mildly).  Anyway, I will be decorating the new house that I bought, and am telling the kids that mom and dad still have problems to work out and we'll see who ends up in the other house.  The kids adore the new home, it'sclose to their schools, parks, stores, etc.  They actually asked if we could keep both houses!! I wonder if deep down they would feel more settled if mom and dad just did the deed and moved on.

Alan, you are somehwat unique because N-souses are more often husbands than wives.  On  the other hand, I have seen far too many hen-pecking, whining wives who are more shrews than women. Perhaps these are the female N's.  YOu must have felt so much better to be free of her. You are so lucky that you had no kids with her (I gather from your post).  Do you trust your judgement in new women you meet, or are you finding yourself skiddish in terms of involvement?

Also (sorry about all this prying!!) did you find yourself attracted to other women when you were married, but not sure why, or you felt guilty about it?  I truly believe that most peole who are open to outside intimacy are sadly lacking intimacy in their marriage -- "affairs begin at home," as they say.

I am still having this major emotional problem with this guy at work -- in short we adore each other, I'm separating, he's married but lonely, but I do NOT want to be involved with him because he is married and so I realize I am in for a MAJOR crash.  On the other hand, like I tell my shrink, he is a source of compassion, kindness, and acceptance of me.  What a screw-up!!! As you'll recall, I tried explaining to him how I felt, and we tried getting out of our patterns of frequent long talks, but we have slipped right back (he pursued the return to status quo).  He says he needs to talk about this more with me -- I hope I have the strength to do the right thing.

Funny thing, before I started my "enlightenment," i.e., when I truly believed that the problems were all mine and that I deserved what I got, I was less miserable than I am now.  Somehow if you believe you got the lot in life that you deserved, then I guess you learn to make do.

But then I got lots more education, great jobs with responsibility, and made terrific, sincere friends who are happy and truly do like me.  Against this new backdrop, my marriage started looking pretty grim. URGH!!! This personal growth stuff is so painful!!

But I love knowing you guys are always here.

Take care erryT and Alan.  Keep in touch.

[Alan]

Clara:

Ask any question you want.  I just came from a very tough therapy session and pulled out all the demons.  Simply, I don't blame my soon to be xN for the problems.  I have been in therapy before, I work at it, dated a Psychologist for a number of years, read everything is sight.  I consider myself an Emotional Warrior.  It may take me a while to get somewhere, but, I wil get there.

So, when I entered the marriage, I had a good psychological basis and pretty much incorporated, balanced.  But, I hadn't finished my work.  I started to finish tonight.  

Tho I wasn't relieved to leave her (she forced the issue), after 2 months of being out of that toxic environment, I have returned to what I was before I met here.  A very good thing.  And the truth is that I saw all the signs for problems very early on in the relationship.  And my garbage, my need for connection with a female, caused me not to do the right thing.  I closed my eyes and also thought I could fix her.

You asked a very interesting question. And the truth is, before the s*** hit the fan mid summer, I was thinking about some sort of affair, either emotionally or physically.  My xN is one of the most beautiful women you could find.  And here I was starting the wandering eye.  

My emotional needs weren't being met, and bec. I was pressing her buttons, she cut me off sexually.  And she and I had a spectacular physical relationship until about a year ago.  She started to use sex as a weapon, inconsistantly, but a weapon, to gain control and punishment.

At one point, to try to compromise, I wanted to work with her, no more pressing for answers to my questions, I would accept what she would have to say without me attacking her on the whys and wherefores.  My thinking became if you are not capable of talking to me the way I needed, and not everyone wants to analyze at my level, I had friends I could turn to for that need.  I really believed that.  Our partners can't give us everything we need, I recognized that and was cool with my idea.  She said no, she didn't want me to do that.  So, I can't talk to you and you don't want me to go somewhere else.  I should have known then.

And a core belief of mine is, why be married and have affairs.

I don't know what I would have done sexually.  I have a healthy sex attitude, practice Tantra (understanding and healing thru physical contact), and we had actually agreed on how to balance our needs.  But, when put into practice, she couldn't live up to her side of the bargain.  More control.

In the end, the problems are with the Ns, not us.  They are incapable of giving anything permanent.  

I suggest you go to the radio site I listed.  It is an earfull.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Alan.  We have a few things in common. I love to analyze and talk in terms of feelings and figuring things out.  And although I wasn't dating or married to a psychologist as you were -- I trained as one!! Yup, got a Ph.D. in psychology and still can't sort out my persoanl mess. Funny thing is, I never registered to practice because (I only realize now) the truth about my own deamons was too painful to face when being trained for  therapy.  I continued to be intereesteed in the profession though, and have writin on it for mags and a newspaper.

As with you, I definitely needed an outlet to think about things in more depth than I could with my husband.  But I could accept that. I never minded the concept that you can't get everything from one person.  I guess the problem in my marriage is the whole negativity scene all year long with him -- i.e.e, the complaining, the controlling, the emotionally abusive fighting, how he is always right and never wrong, how he is never remorseful, how all of his social energy is spent postering himself to look better that anyone else around him.

I guess that in order for a relationhip to survive -- despite not having all your needs met -- you still have to get some enjoyment out of it.

Funny thing about your ex, not wanting you to reach out and connect emotionally with others.  My N-husband is so self-absorbed he has not a clue what my friendships are like with other people, and couldn't care less. He lacks imagination and the capacity to think about anyone else  long enought to figure anything out about them.

I have never had a physical affair, but yes, I am guilty of the emotional affair.  I was reading some interesting thoughts on emotional affairs on the net.  The religious sites just present them as flagrant breach of the marriage.  The mainstream therapists see them as an outlet for connection among people who can't have their fundamantal needs for closeness met in the marriage.  Right or wrong, it is a way of getting needs met.  They do, however, point to how they usually end with pain, once it sinks in that it will never go further.  

Take care.