Can those abused by Ns cause NPD in their own children?

[IfIhadknown]

It seems to be the common thought that only N parents or abusive parents hurt their children and are the cause of NPD in them.  But from what I have  experienced, NPD is an unconscious choice chosen  as a way for a young child to face the pain of  the conflict between his abused parents and abusive or NPD grandparents.  We tend to think that NPD in a child  only occurs  when a child is affected by a N parent.

Is it possible that the children of the abused parent  are  affected by the conflict that the  abused parent has with their NPD parents?   NPD is a way for a child to deal with circumstances that are out of his control. It is a way of hiding in the midst of trouble. If the  children of the abused  parents  inadvertently  witness our pain and conflict  with our N Parents, some  may then develop NPD traits in order to survive the emotional crisis they are being raised in.

 It seems that how you treat your problem with your NPD parents can cause your children to develop NPD traits as their only means of survival.  Both Ns and those abused by Ns can cause NPD in their children.   NPD is a child’s means to deal with the emotional pain in the abnormal relationship between  his abused parent and his NPD grandparents. We can think we are doing better than our N parents did with us by not doing the same things our N parents did, but miss out on the fact that the conflict we have with our Ns is the thing that starts our child on the journey of hiding behind a false face. The Journey of NPD is one that is seldom abandoned once it is set out upon.

 Years later when your N parents have toned down their act, and all your children can see is a grey headed sweet old couple who claim to have been falsely accused,  your children may then favor the N grandparents and look upon you as the one who has caused all the trouble. They may  proclaim that the abuse that you talked of never existed and  was only in your mind and that you are the sick one. I have been there and seen it happen. In  my opinion, the abused by a N is just as likely to have N children as a N parent if they bring their child into the conflict they have with their N Parents at a early age and they grow up viewing that conflict.

[Anonymous]

Years later when your N parents have toned down their act, and all your children can see is a grey headed sweet old couple who claim to have been falsely accused,  your children may then favor the N grandparents and look upon you as the one who has caused all the trouble. They may  proclaim that the abuse that you talked of never existed and  was only in your mind and that you are the sick one. I have been there and seen it happen. In  my opinion, the abused by a N is just as likely to have N children as a N parent if they bring their child into the conflict they have with their N Parents at a early age and they grow up viewing that conflict.

I think this is more the exception than the rule. Often the gray-haired grandparents are still emotionally cold, unavailable, mean, and have a lot of nasty traits. And children are generally far more bonded to their parents than to their grandparents. With that said, I don't think it's great for a child to see his/her parents fighting with the grandparents.

bunny

[Anonymous]

I don't know whether it is an exception or rule, either way - but Bunny's observation is a good one.

I've tried to keep my conflict with my mother to a minimum, and certainly have been conscious of keeping my mouth shut and my feelings under wraps about any conflicts that exist (other than to say "we don't always agree about everything but that's okay").

However, I have to admit that I've been feeling fairly vindicated lately, as my daughter, now almost 11, has been noting some of the same things about Grandma that I've always felt/thought, though through a decidedly different lens.

Fortunately (although she sees her regularly), my daughter does not live with her, so for her it's been more of an eye-roller when she's caught Grandma twisting the truth, exaggerating, manipulating and outright lying to get what she wants or maintain her image. She also experiences the sweet side of Grandma (which is off-putting to me, but my daughter is not so poisoned by it all and is still objective enough to aoppreciate it) and basically feels okay and loving about her.

Honestly, though, it also make me somewhat jealous. I wish I had been able to experience it all as a eye-roller, but to me she was all-powerful and dangerous. To H, she's mostly just a silly, annoying (yes-annoying ), misguided but sweet old lady (my southerm mother is obsessed with  being the image of sweetness, charm and illness)- which in some ways, I suppose she is. She's many things, ultimately.

I guess I'm saying that it's possible to keep your child out of harm's way but in the family, even if you do have a contentious relationship with your parents. My girl seems to be doing pretty good. Like I said, I try to keep visible conflict to a minimum, plus we have a great bond,  so Bunny's comment is really key.

[catlover]

I believe that children of Ns may be very likely to raise Ns, but for a different reason than what's been discussed in this thread.  The following is basically what I deduced from reading "Children of the Self-Absorbed" and from observing my mother-in-law (whose mother was an N) interact with her adult N-children:  

Many N victims (including me and my MIL) have a "compliant response," which means they adapt by becoming compliant with the N abuser.  This "compliance" carries over into the rest of their lives, so they are compulsively people-pleasing.  So, when the compliant N victim has children, they will focus on making those children happy (the same way they learned to focus on making the N parent happy), often at the expense of their own feelings and needs.  The children learn by the victim-parent's example that THEIR wants needs and feelings are more important than other people's; they may never even develop the ability to SENSE others' needs and feelings, because the victim-parent "hides" his or her own, consciously or not.

I'm curious if anyone else has seen this sort of dynamic occur in families with Ns?

[Anonymous]

What you say Gwen, makes a lot of sence.

I came from an abusive background.  I tried very hard to please my parents, my spouse and I have only ever wanted to make my children happy and NOT experience anything like what I did.

As a result, my kids seem selfish and inconsiderate, a lot of the time.  I know you are right and I have been a people pleaser and I also know I have shown my children this.  Sometimes I think that their behaviour is just immaturity and that in time, they will become better attuned with the rest of the world.  It seems like they are slowly becoming considerate and giving people.

But if not, and I have taught them to be like this by putting my own needs aside and not expressing my real feelings (which I know I've done in order to please them...many times), then I am surely guilty of not doing it right.

Just what I needed, something else to beat myself up about.

The really shameful thing is.....I like pleasing people.    It feels good to make my kids, my husband, happy and it's not that I don't EVER put my own needs first.  It's true that I don't usually do so and certainly not always.

So where is the happy medium?

[Anonymous]

Many N victims (including me and my MIL) have a "compliant response," which means they adapt by becoming compliant with the N abuser. This "compliance" carries over into the rest of their lives, so they are compulsively people-pleasing. So, when the compliant N victim has children, they will focus on making those children happy (the same way they learned to focus on making the N parent happy), often at the expense of their own feelings and needs. The children learn by the victim-parent's example that THEIR wants needs and feelings are more important than other people's; they may never even develop the ability to SENSE others' needs and feelings, because the victim-parent "hides" his or her own, consciously or not.

Wow, that's GOOD. I've been searching for a good way to describe my worries about over-compensation. You just did a better job than I've been able to so far, thank you.

It's a big job, I think, to avoid replacing one pathology with another as you try to find balance between repeating history and protecting your children. Is for me, anyway - but it is without doubt the best, most illuminating and educational job I've ever had.

T

[IfIhadknown]

Gwyn thank you for responding .

You said : “Many N victims (including me and my MIL) have a "compliant response," which means they adapt by becoming compliant with the N abuser. This "compliance" carries over into the rest of their lives, so they are compulsively people-pleasing. So, when the compliant N victim has children, they will focus on making those children happy .”

That is so true. In looking back we realize that we were so intent in making sure that our children didn’t go through what we went  through that we did the opposite. It appears that we opened a whole new can of worms. We did, as you said, try  to please them even to the  point that they came first, second, third and forth…..

You said : “The children learn by the victim-parent's example that THEIR wants needs and feelings are more important than other people's, they may never even develop the ability to SENSE others' needs and feelings, because the victim-parent "hides" his or her own, consciously or not.”

This happened to us. When you have been abused as a child  and don’t have any idea why your parents abused you, you try to do better with your own children. You want them to feel loved and special, all the things your parent never gave you.  In the end they feel they are special, which you of course  wanted them to feel, But you didn’t count on doing such a good job that they would feel that they were better than everyone else, especially you.

 They have taken everything you could provide and sacrifice for them. In the end even that wasn’t good enough because they developed a feeling of entitlement. We were told we didn’t take them out to eat enough after church with their friends and  a whole list of things we didn’t do enough of. We did all that we could afford to do and held back nothing. We sold our house and took the money we earned to pay for two fancy weddings, set then up with bank accounts, apartments, college educations etc.

While raising our children, we had never heard of Narcissism. I continued to be targeted by my parents, not knowing why. I bent over backwards to please them, take care of them, help them, include them in every holiday, birthday, recital, ballgame etc. My mother all the while slamming my looks, brains, child raising skills, attitude, personality and holding up my beautiful younger sister  to me as a  the perfect one. That continued to hurt and make me angry. I’m afraid I didn’t do such a good job of hiding it. Each time I would cry and rant. Then pray till I could forgive them and go on to the next episode where the same thing would happen all over again. A zillion times. My children saw, felt and heard all this. This, I know was not good at all. I was young, and very damaged. If I could save one parent on this board from going through what we have been going through with our children, maybe our pain would not have been in vain.

If I had to do it all over again, we would move far, far, far away so that at least I wouldn’t have had to be in constant torment and maybe I could have had a measure of healing and done a better job with my kids.

If we had known about Narcissism we would have known how to handle my parents and why they continued to do to me what they were doing. I have spent my whole life trying to please my N parents when there is no way they will ever be pleased if you are the target. I thought I wasn’t good enough, that there was something wrong with me and proceeded to try to be perfect which made me a perfectionist. All to be good enough to be loved and considered equal to my sister.

If I had known that I was good and the problem was them, I maybe wouldn’t have become such a people pleasers and could have avoided some of our pitfalls. It is too late for us unless our kids someday come around. We hope and pray they will but realize that if we want to stay alive we can no longer allow ourselves be the target of anyone, my parents or our children.

Maybe this post will alert some parents to the potential damage they could inadvertently cause while they are trying their best to stop this cycle of Narcissism and abuse that seems to pass from generation to generation. We thought we were stopping it. CAN YOU?

We are having to leave town for about a week because of a death in my husband’s family. We will answer your posts when we get back.  Just didn’t want Gwyn and guest to be left hanging in the air while we were gone. Thanks so much for your thought provoking replies.

IfIhadknown

[serena]

I rarely get emotional, especially in 'cyber space' but your post was so moving that I did.

I so understand the 'people pleasing' attitude.  I still have it...  Luckily I now restrict it to the people who love me and who I love but have been terribly used in the past because of this.

I don't have children because my mother and family life were so toxic that I used to believe that I would be the same... I know now this is not true.  I can clearly see how your attempts to love your children have made them selfish.  While they may not be narcissistic - they probably believe the world owes them!!  Life teaches us all lessons and we all get 'bruised' and sometimes it does no harm.  Hopefully, they will grow and learn and realise how lucky they were to be brought up in such a loving, warm and kind home.

[Kaz]

It is too late for us unless our kids someday come around.

It's never to late to be the parent that you should have been. The responsibility is on YOUR shoulders.

Absolving yourselves by saying that you did too much of a good job is ridiculous. As you say, abuse goes from generation to generation. How come you missed out on the cycle? How did it skip a generation and land so squarely again on your daughters?
I agree with the other posters that an over-indulgent parenting style can lead to entitlement/selfishness problems, but I doubt that this alone can turn a child into a full blown narcissist.
I do hope that you can turn this situation around wife/husband. Step for a moment into your daughter's shoes. Do you see what they see? Terribly hurt, self righteous matyrs, who are too proud to accept that they might have had some responsibility in how things turned out.
You blame your own parents for your own abuse, yet you refuse to accept the same from your daughters. Do your parents accept the blame that you attribute them?
Children, whatever their age, want their parents' unconditional love. They know they have it when they feel it. It's doesn't come through bank accounts and apartments.
Once again, I do hope that you can make this better; don't think for a moment that your daughters are not hurting also.
(I speak as a daughter of a self-righteous matyr, who did turn things around; I love my mother all the more for that).

[serena]

I too am the daughter of a self-righteous martyr who is never happier than when dishing out misery and chaos.

Respectfully, though, I have noticed lately that parents of N children tend to get their heartfelt posts dismissed as if it their fault.  

Maybe we, as victims, tend to forget that ALL N's have parents and many of the N's were never abused or unloved as children...

My mother was spoiled so much that she never had to do chores or worry about anything - hence her rampant Narcissism and selfishness.

[mum]

I have yet to dig it up again on the web, but there is some information out there (perhaps in the Sam Vaknin stuff), including studies that show children of N's aren't automatically N's by genetics or environment.  They actually show no distinct connection. All of the posts on this thread are wonderful and thought provoking.  As soon as I find that stuff I will get it to you, but in the meantime, do a search for it, you may have more luck than I am having.  An organized person would write these links down...oh well.
     Interesting point made about seeing your children demonstrate Narcissistic tendencies/behavior:  All children are Narcissistic.... this is something they grow out of.. and then back into a bit in adolescence and then back out again.  Hang in there.   We accept that behavior from children but gently and firmly show them the world does not evolve around one person.  
     A "grown up" Narcissist is just a child in adult clothing. Leaving a narcissist (who clearly will never grow up) was the best thing I ever did for my children. The post regarding children seeing the N victim's behavoir was on target, or at least I have seen that manifested in my life so far.  
     Yes, my teenagers act like teenagers sometimes. I accept that as natural and show them other ways to be.  Yes, my ex N acts like a teenager/toddler most of the time....I accept that's who he is and not let him take advantage of me or the kids and then I get to drop it. It's not my problem anymore (that's his new wife's problem, poor woman).
     Love your kids, be aware (not wary) and show them how a healthy/happy person funtions.  They will learn by your example.

[mum]

Interesting typo I made : "evolve" instead of "revolve".  Changes the meaning, but I guess just in an interesting way...hmmm.

[bunny]

I came from an abusive background.  I tried very hard to please my parents, my spouse and I have only ever wanted to make my children happy and NOT experience anything like what I did.

It was positive that you broke the cycle of abuse.

As a result, my kids seem selfish and inconsiderate, a lot of the time.  I know you are right and I have been a people pleaser and I also know I have shown my children this.  Sometimes I think that their behaviour is just immaturity and that in time, they will become better attuned with the rest of the world.  It seems like they are slowly becoming considerate and giving people.

If they are getting better, maybe they're just normal young people who are going through a natural phase. Teenagers (if that's what they are) are naturally narcissistic.

But if not, and I have taught them to be like this by putting my own needs aside and not expressing my real feelings (which I know I've done in order to please them...many times), then I am surely guilty of not doing it right

All you have to be is a "good enough" mother. That's all that's required for positive child-rearing. If you want to improve a bit, then be more real with them. Show them some of your true feelings, not through acting them out impulsively, but by telling them how you feel or showing some real emotions but without overreacting. Set limits, have good boundaries, don't let them walk all over you, be firm, and try to understand what they're feeling. They'll appreciate it.

Oh, yeah, there's a really good book, called Compassionate Child-Rearing by Robert W. Firestone. I bet it's in the library.


bunny

[bunny]

Respectfully, though, I have noticed lately that parents of N children tend to get their heartfelt posts dismissed as if it their fault.

I think that only happens when the posters are perceived as not taking responsibility for their part in the situation. This triggers people who wish their parents had taken responsibility. Possibly the respondents overreact to the poster but that's how I see it.

I agree that not all N children have had terrible parents. But something happened in those families that we aren't privy to. (imo)

bunny

[bludie]

Teenagers (if that's what they are) are naturally narcissistic.

Thanks for making that point, bunny. As I learn about NPD I've begun to wonder about my 16-year-old, only-child, shall we say -- nurtured -- daughter. Lately my feedback to her on social situations at school and with friends is that she's not the center of the universe and it isn't all about her! Maturity, reality and a dose of life's lessons will probably reinforce this better than my lectures  

Best,

bludie