I lost my Dad last month, just discovered Mom has NPD

[cindinj]

I mentioned this in another post and now that I've read some more I thought I should introduce myself to this community and try to give some brief history...

I'm a 40 year-old woman, married to an emotionally healthy man (thanks to God and some years of therapy before we met and married at 33) and we have two small children (G-almost 4 and B-9 1/2 months).

I was raised by and lived with until I was 19 my natural parents who never had a happy marriage.  Living at home with them was very difficult and I was eager to get OUT as soon as I could.  I skipped going to college in order to get a job/make money so I could move out.  After 42 years of (unhappy) marriage, my mother threw my very sick father out last April.  He was a 70-year old diabetic who had triple by-pass surgery 6 years prior and was getting chemo for stage 4 colon cancer at the time.  My father was DEVESTATED and completely lost.  I gave birth to my son 10 days after he was thrown out of the house - I was in no position to be of much help at the time.  My older brother took my father under his wing, found him an apartment, got him setup, etc.  My father did a complete 180 after being away from my mother's negative energy for a few months, ended his chemo, got a clean bill of health from his doctor, joined a wonderful church and filed for a divorce.  It was a miracle as he never seemed to have any backbone/ability to create a life for himself.  Tragically, my brother found him in a coma in his apartment on New Years Day and he died 17 days later.  It appears that it was a diabetic coma but the doctors were not able to diagnose it well.

My mother never went to see him in the hospital.  When my (younger) sister told her that our father was probably going to die, she said she hoped no one expected her to cancel her plans to go to Florida the following week to see her (still living at 95) father.  No, of course not.  She went, he died, she didn't return for his funeral - me and my sibs made all the arrangements and buried our Dad.  My mother returned the day after he was buried.  The following Monday her best friend sent an email to me and sibs inviting us to a 70th birthday party for my mother on 2/13 at what was my parents home.  We have all declined the invite, but not without hearing about how SHE is still alive and will only turn 70 once, etc. etc.

I've seen a wonderful therapist for years but it wasn't until the events of these last few weeks that we've been able to easily identify my mother as having narcissistic personality disorder.  I've done some reading but need to do a lot more (recommendations are WELCOME).  I truly WANT to detach from her completely right now but I don't think I will.  We haven't spoken since the day my father was brought to the hospital when she showed up uninvited at my home and I asked her to leave.  I was devastated about my brother finding my father in a coma and she was the last person I was going to speak to about it.  We've emailed some since but she is always very unhappy that I'm "putting her out of my life".  My older child (4 next month) adores her grandmother and I don't think I could live with the regrets of not speaking to her.  My younger sister hadn't spoken to our father since last summer and her pain is immeasurable right now.  Selfishly I want to find a "place" for her and I truly feel less pain from her just understanding her mental state.  My therapist has been clear that emotionally she is an INFANT and that's something I can understand since I have one  

There are tons of blanks I could fill in but I've already bored everyone to tears so I'll stop.  I hope I can support others here, too.

Cindi

[Bloopsy]

welcome cindinj. ((((((cindjinj)))))))))

[miaxo]

I am sorry for your loss.  

You just lost one parent....I can understand why you wouldn't want to cut ties completely with your Mom especially at this time. However, I can also see why you would be torn especially since she abandoned your Dad when he was in most need.

Lean on your husband and take time to sort through your feelings. Your heart will tell you what is the best thing to do for you and your family.


Mia

[bunny]

Welcome, cindinj,

My condolences on your father's passing.

I agree it's not feasible to cut off your mother completely, and it's okay (with me, anyway) if you remain in contact with her. You know what she is and that you can't trust her one bit. Her best friend sounds quite lovely too.  

bunny

[Anonymous]

Dear cindinj:

I am truly sorry for your loss.  I can somewhat relate to your situation.  My father and mother were involved in a 40 year unhappy marriage.  It was a bad deal not only for them, but for us, their children, as well. The dynamics of any family is very convoluted.  I think recognizing what your dealing with is the first step to gaining some control over the situation.  For example your therapist has recognized your sister as an infant personality.  If you see her as such, then it becomes easier to respond in an appropriate manner.  The same is true with your N mother.  If you recognize that she is an N, then your behaviour can reflect what you will and will not allow from her.  As with anyone else, is she safe? is she well fed? does she have a house? does she have adequate medical care?  If the answer to all of these are yes, then her physical needs are being met.  Everything else falls into the catagory of what you will or will not do for her.  Can you let your daughter continue to see her.........I would say yes, IF and only IF she does not begin to use this child to manipulate you to get her narcisstic supply.  IF you perceive she is doing things to get her supply of "adoration" then limit the contact you have with her in those circumstances and do those things you can for her...............without damage to your boundaries of what you think is appropriate and at your emotional expense.  Patz

[bkkabri]

sorry to hear about your father.  Its a tragic time to lose somebody you love.  Your very fortunate to have a loving husband to lean on.

[serena]

Hi Cindi

Firstly, I am very sorry for the loss of your Dad.  I know this is a very raw time for you right now.  Regarding your mother, I wouldn't feel guilty 'pulling away' from her.  Your little girl will understand in time why her relationship with her grandmother didn't flourish.

I feel terribly sorry for your younger sister, though...  IMO, guilt is the most crushing human emotion.  Are there any organisations that help with bereavement?  It might be easier for her to talk to strangers.  I know there's one in the UK called CRUSE?

She won't be able to grieve properly until she is able to come to terms with her guilt.

I wish you all well.  I'm sorry such selfish people populate this world and destroy lives.

[Anonymous]

Hello Cindi,

I'm sorry for your loss too.   It seems you may have lost more than just your dad, and I'm sorry for those losses too.

My parents had an unhappy marriage and when one of them, died (our mother), our family began to disintegrate.  They may not have had a happy marriage but they did have family get togethers, which included my siblings.  When those get togethers ceased a rift began to grow between my siblings and I.  One seemed oblivious to our father's past and present N behaviour and two of us wanted nothing but distance from him.   Our relationships were weakly held together by a sense of "family", even if it was a messed up one, and since that ended, we drifted further appart.

As dysfunctional as our families are, we still mourn the loss of whatever good things we recall, when we realize no more will ever be generated.  It takes time to adjust to the change and I know I mourned many losses along with the loss of my mother.

Best to you, Cindi.

GFN

[catlover]

Hi Cindi,
I can totally relate to what you are going through - it is truly amazing how self-centered these Ns are, even in the face of death (nothing gets through to them!!).  In fact, that's the reason my step-dad left my N mom after 15 years of constant henpecking:  His father had died and they were in a distant town to attend the funeral.  Instead of showing sympathy, my mother remained focused on all the things my step-dad was doing (or not doing) that made her unhappy, and behaved very coldly to him as her way of punishing him or trying to get him to change.  This cleared away any remaining hope for him of a loving relationship with her.  I have had to set a major boundary to continue having any relationship with him - she of course thought I should cut him off because of the way he treated her, and my not doing so was seen as a "betrayal."  

The sad part is that she cut me off from many family members, emotionally and/or physically, before I had a chance to know what was happening, because of her deep-seated grudges against them for whatever they "did to her".  Many of these family members died before I was old enough to "get it."  

You asked for recommendations for someone who's just learned they were raised by a narcissist.  What helped me was to read this board and thus understand that I am not alone in my experiences - I am not crazy.  (Also, to read the articles on Dr. Grossman's web page.)  Another thing was to read the book "Children of the Self-Absorbed" by Nina Brown.  A lot of the specific descriptions in the book about how N's act didn't really fit my mother, but the OVERALL description and how it impacted me was the same.  Finally, always keep in mind that in all likelihood (I never say never) THEY WILL NOT CHANGE and THEY WILL NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR  POINT OF VIEW no matter what you say or do.  The best you can do is to take care of yourself in the face of whatever they do, and, as you said, realize they are an emotional infant and relate to them that way.

I'm sorry you and your father and sibs have had to suffer through this, but know that you are not alone.

[BG]

Hi -

With some differences, I dealt with a similar situation starting 14 months ago: sudden illness/death of father in Feb 2004 and the resulting disturbance in the family system brought my mother's (likely) NPD to the surface, or at least made it finally obvious enough for a lay-person diagnosis.  Its been a painful, but ultimately life-affirming ride for me since.

My parents had a long, unhappy marriage until the end -- my dad was alcoholic with his own anxiety issues, but there was always 'something else' at work in my family that I couldn't put my finger on, despite several years of therapy and awareness of ACOA/12-step-related reading, etc.

My mom's actions during/after my dad's death -- including lies, innuendo, manipulations -- and how my 2 of my siblings followed her lead in isolating my dad as he died and excluding my oldest sibling (who has schizophrenia) from the funeral, forced me to see things for what they are...after spending my adult life doing anything I could to not face the painful realization that my mother may have been incapable of loving me.

I -didn't- know about NPD yet when I confronted my mother in August 2004 on what appeared to be inexplicable contradictions in her behavior and what society generally accepts as a norm for a mother/parent.  At the same time I confronted my siblings on an issue relating to our oldest disabled brother, a complicated and emotional situation that in retrospect I see as largely conjured by our mother as a way to divide/conquer our relationships with each other over the years.

In the weeks that followed, as I waited for a response form my other family members, I learned of NPD, which has been the Rosetta Stone for my understanding of exactly what happened as I was growing up, the long-term impact on my adult behavior, and the continued pattern emanating from my mother and the siblings who are within her sphere of influence.  This realization has had a huge impact:

The most dramatic has been what appears to be a spontaneous recovery from intractable depression:  for 12+ years I was medicated for depression, which my docs all assumed was chronic/biological...that lifted following my confrontation and I've been off medication, without relapse, since Sept 04.   There have been many other layers of personal and spiritual growth that have resulting from this realization, and in the big picture and certainly years down the road I have no regrets of having done what I have, aside from wishing I could have done it sooner.

Now the price...and this may be where you might draw some insight from what I view as my errors:

If I knew about NPD before I confronted my mother, and tried to deal with a intra-sibling issue that was heavily influenced by her, I would have handled things much differently.  In some ways I walked right into a trap -- laying down my cards, in a fairly emotional way...and that approach appears to have been used by my mother to turn 2 of my brothers against me...I am now largely in exile from my birth family, except for my oldest brother, who despite his mental illness is actually quite well adjust in relation to my other family members.  

This has been the double-, maybe even triple-loss:  my dad's physical death, the loss of the old relationships with my mother and 2 siblings, and the sad realization that much of my conception of my dad was largely manufactured (negatively) by my mother and it was in the final weeks of his life when I was able to see him much closer to his real self...alcoholic warts and all...which wasn't as bad as I was raised to believe.

I can't quite describe the pain...its deep, profoundly sad, and feels unfair, in a cosmic way.  That said...in that pain is the essence of life that I missed for many years...the false experience had to be stripped away for me to be present for -my- family...my wife and 2 daughters.  I look upon my avoidance of the ugly truth of my mother and the resulting family relationships as a personal indulgence that took my energy away from my wife and kids...I'm not beating myself up for that, but I have apologized to them as a way to take responsibility for what I have done in the past and will do in the future.

And ultimately, the relationships I have 'lost', with my mother and brothers (for the moment at least) were somewhat pretend -- the nature was false with each of us requiring the others to play parts...so the familiarity is what is lost, but there was more cost than benefit in the relationships in their old form.   I have moved from being extremely pissed off, to just a little pissed off, but more seeing them (and me) for fairly damaged humans that are doing their best to survive...as long as I maintain the new barriers around me and my family to the damage that my mom generates, I can regard her with compassion rather than contempt.  My brothers...not sure where those relationships will end up...but I think to whatever extent they don't face up to some of these issues, they may have their hands full as my mom ages and their families potentially propogate these patterns.

Hope this helps somewhat -- I'd be happy to post/email more -- this has been profoundly difficult year, but I do see/feel the light at the end of the tunnel now.

Best of luck!

B





But

After

[catlover]

Hi BG,

Your post made me feel very "validated" because it has been so similar in some ways to my experience, I feel the need to comment on it.

...after spending my adult life doing anything I could to not face the painful realization that my mother may have been incapable of loving me.

This realization is painful but necessary because without it, we have a very unhealthy idea of what "love" is about.  (i.e., if I think my Nmother "loves" me, then I let other people who say they love me ignore my feelings and needs, etc, because, after all, that's what my mother always did/does, and she insists that she loves me!)

....I confronted my mother in August 2004 on what appeared to be inexplicable contradictions in her behavior and what society generally accepts as a norm for a mother/parent.  

It has been very painful to see how other parents in general treat their kids... I used to think that poverty and single parenthood was the reason I was treated poorly by comparison, but I've since learned that poverty was only the tip of the iceberg.

I learned of NPD, which has been the Rosetta Stone for my understanding of exactly what happened as I was growing up, the long-term impact on my adult behavior, and the continued pattern emanating from my mother and the siblings who are within her sphere of influence.  This realization has had a huge impact:

The most dramatic has been what appears to be a spontaneous recovery from intractable depression:  for 12+ years I was medicated for depression, which my docs all assumed was chronic/biological...that lifted following my confrontation and I've been off medication, without relapse, since Sept 04.   There have been many other layers of personal and spiritual growth that have resulting from this realization, and in the big picture and certainly years down the road I have no regrets of having done what I have, aside from wishing I could have done it sooner.

The NPD diagnosis that my therapist gave my mother has been extremely enlightening for me as well.  Congratulations on your spontaneous recovery!!!  I haven't been as lucky, but I hope to get off the antidepressants one day...  Your post has made me think that maybe I should write a letter to my mother, which I have not done since the NPD diagnosis (which was made about a year ago).  But this would be strictly for ME - I would not give it to her.

.....In some ways I walked right into a trap -- laying down my cards, in a fairly emotional way...and that approach appears to have been used by my mother to turn 2 of my brothers against me...I am now largely in exile from my birth family...

I used to try to confront my mother about this stuff (before I knew about NPD) but of course it led nowhere.  And, I think my mother did use these confrontations against me to help get my step-dad on "her side."  (i.e., See how mean my daughter is to me!!!  How she blames everything on me!)  I am now treading very carefully in an effort to not have my 2 much younger brothers turned against me.  This is very difficult, because I am constantly tempted to point out to my brothers how "un-parentlike" our mother's behavior is and how very "parent-like" their father (my step-dad) is.  They've been divorced for 6 years, and my mother sees him as the devil incarnate, so she criticizes him A LOT to (or at least in front of) my brothers.  My brothers still seem to love and respect their father, which I am very glad about, yet I can see the corroding effects that our mother has on their personalities and views of the world.  I really want to try to counteract that, but know that the more I try to do that, the more they will step up to defend her and become more entrenched on "her side."  Their father thinks they will "get it" when they get older, and I sure hope he's right!!

...the sad realization that much of my conception of my dad was largely manufactured (negatively) by my mother and it was in the final weeks of his life when I was able to see him much closer to his real self...alcoholic warts and all...which wasn't as bad as I was raised to believe.

I have had to come to this realization about several relatives, some of whom died before I "got it," as I wrote in my last post.  I initiated contact with the ones who were still alive, and wrote letters to the ones who weren't.

Well, congratulations again on your recovery and thanks for your post.

[voiceless guest]

I've just found this sight and concept (voicelessness) tonight.  I am in my mid-40s and have been in therapy for 20+ years.  This fall, I finally figured out that my father is narcissistic and NPD.  This week I finally realized that my mother has narcissistic traits.

My father is living but not at all well.  Part of his narcissism, in a very twisted way, takes pleasure and pride in not following doctors orders and in being difficult to treat.  He will accept the portion of medicaltreatment that does not impede what he wants to do.

He has lymphodema and has been hospitalized twice in the past 6 months but refuses to sleep lying down even though he has fallen off of a stool and broken vertabrae.

The whole senario is completely insane.  But my point is this.  I have a four year old son, my only child, who is named after my father.  My husband died suddenly when our son was 7 months old.  My father has never spent time with my son except when his wife arranged family dinners.  Those ended a year ago, just before his wife having had enough, asked him to leave.  

Now, alone, my father has reappeared in my brothers', mother's and my lives with a vengeance.  However, FINALLY, I have reached a point when I am determined to distance myself.  Last Sunday, at his request, my four year old and I met him for lunch.  He was 20 minutes late (as usual). But once he arrived he play, what my son calls "the best game."  Every move that my child made was met with a comment - "Oh I see that you cousin is better than you, He would never have dropped his fork, no he wouldn't have gotten out of his chair.  No, you're not the best.  Your cousin is better than you.  He wouldn't have emptied the box of crayons.  O, he would have eaten all his lunch." and on and on for 45 minutes.  Both my son and I have finished lunch before he had taken a bite.  Not that it matters - but the cousin my son was being compared to is 16.

Why didn't I say something or get up an leave, a reasonable human might ask.  I couldn't.  Had I, the offense would have simply escalated.  But what I can do is simply not be available any more.  

Perhaps it is only my overwhelming sense of guilt that has kept me hooked.  Both of my brothers continue to see him.  And while one brother finds it excruciating he has found a framework that makes it possible for him.  BUT - it is that ultimate, extraordinary lonliness that eats at my very soul.  The longing for "family".  And having lost my hopes for a "family" of my own - facing the bleak reality of my fmaily of origin is still unbearable even after all these years of therapy.   - But I haven't given up hope.  

MY POINT
is really this.  Think about saving your child from your narcissistic parent.  I finally realize that in spite of the fact that my son doesn't have a father (who was an only child with no living relatives) and only one grandfather and two uncles who have taken no time for him - the one grandfather he has is actually a detriment to him.  My son told me himself - "I don't want to have lunch with grandfather again.  I didn't have fun and you didn't have fun."[/b]

[sleepyhead]

Dear Cindi: I understand how you feel. I, too, can't seem to sever the ties with my N mother completely. I don't know what is the best way to deal with your mother, but I can tell you what seems to work on mine, so that I don't have to see her so often. Lie. If my mother calls and asks me to dinner I tell her we already have plans and can't make it. In her need to believe that everybody loves her, she gullibly swallows my lies. But then again, it is easy for me, b/c my sister has kids and my mother is over at her place almost every weekend (poor sis). When it comes to the children though, I am pregnant, and my plan is (although it may have to be revised once the baby is her and I can see if it works) to let her see my child, but only as often as I want to, and never without my presence. Easy for me to say, since my fiancé's parents can babysit if I need them to. Anyway, good luck and keep posting!

[Anonymous]

Hello All:

The main theme appears that we have come from families where the marriages were difficult.   Imposed separation on our part or by death, our families have disintergrated.  It ceases to be a "coincidence" when patterns are repeated over and over, never mind that we at this board are not related.  What is relational is the  different aspects of our troubled relationships with our sibs and parents  which were proprigated by Ns.

B, I am so happy that the depression has lifted and you are now dealing with the reality of your situation.  IT is hard to come to terms with and it is painful.  

I can only say to B, Cindi and GFN......... we are dealing with the disintergation of our families.  I have found the only way I can remain focused on my needs and the needs of my son is not to deal with my N family.  The same applies to you B.  The negativity, the manipulations, the back biting are all energy absorbing at mine and your family's expense.  Enough.  It is up to us to make way as life affirming as possible.  There is no other way than to stay away.  Patz

[Anonymous]

Why didn't I say something or get up an leave, a reasonable human might ask.  I couldn't.  Had I, the offense would have simply escalated.  But what I can do is simply not be available any more.

I'm sorry that your father is such a pill. He sounds impossible. And not being available is a great idea.  

There are ways to cut short a situation where your child is being abused. You "suddenly" realize that you have to do something and leave. If your father is offended that's all right. He's an adult and can presumably manage. There is a four year old who is defenseless unless an adult defends him. That's all that matters. I've stood up for my 4-year-old nephew many times when adults, including his parents, thought it was okay to shame him. The adults didn't like my doing it. Tough!

You have brothers. Can they be a good enough family...?  

My son told me himself - "I don't want to have lunch with grandfather again.  I didn't have fun and you didn't have fun."

He's right!

bunny