Author Topic: N Letter Writers... do they all do this?  (Read 4212 times)

Screamer

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N Letter Writers... do they all do this?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2005, 01:35:33 PM »
Quote from: luego
Where is the vulnerability? Where is the desire to understand? Can you quote either of these things from the emails?

Some part of me is waiting too for some interest in me from my parent, but it's not going to happen. Ever. I just have to live with that. When I manage to give up that fraction of hope, I might allow myself to be happy. Maybe. But I don't go looking for false hope and I wouldn't give it to others. L


Luego,

I feel the same as you.  I am forever holding out hope that she will really take an interest in me.  It is as though I want her to see me as a real and whole person.  It will never happen.  Ever.  I have come to that realization just as you have.  Still hurts though, and there is a small part of me that still wants to get this from her.  The logical part of me knows she just can't do it.

My past experience with her would lead me to believe that this is not a true attempt at connecting, or trying to understand.  It is an attempt to turn attention back on her and drag me back into the family system.

No disrespect to the guest intended, but I have set myself up over and over again by believing that her actions might be an attempt to reach out.  She just doesn't have it in her.

Screamer

Anonymous

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N Letter Writers... do they all do this?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2005, 08:13:35 PM »
Ok, off with my head then.

I can't know the details because they aren't included in the thread-- so of course I reacted just to what I read.

One thing that worries me about these boards (and maybe I'll just have to leave them for awhile) is that any indication that the situation involves a relationship, and that the person we're talking about (the "N" person) is anything other than a cartoon results in indignant responses.  And there is no real talk of what all of us are doing, including what we are doing that reflects our own narcissistic upbringings in families that were truly broken.  There is no way we got out without some narcissistic tendencies of our own-- it's going to come with the territory.  That's true even if our parents didn't have NPD (which mine didn't-- the full fledged thing is very very rare).  And most of us don't have the clinical training to diagnose NPD anyway.

I just worry about all of this judgment of those "others" that goes on,  because it absolves us completely.  I feel as if I'm not allowed to ask what the real story is behind this thread (what is the history there) and, most oddly of all, that I'm just supposed to know it instictively.  And that I have to agree with everyone about it.

This mother does sound irritating.  But that doesn't mean she doesn't have the capacity for some sort of love and reaching out.   [or it may-- but I'm not wrong just because I disagree].

Anonymous

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N Letter Writers... do they all do this?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2005, 09:06:08 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
I just worry about all of this judgment of those "others" that goes on,  because it absolves us completely.  I feel as if I'm not allowed to ask what the real story is behind this thread (what is the history there) and, most oddly of all, that I'm just supposed to know it instictively.  And that I have to agree with everyone about it.

This mother does sound irritating.  But that doesn't mean she doesn't have the capacity for some sort of love and reaching out.   [or it may-- but I'm not wrong just because I disagree].


I don't think the real story matters in this case. (I don't know it either.) This is about a person's feelings about an email she got from her mom. That's all it is. Just the feelings it evoked. Sometimes there is a polarized aspect to this but if you see that it's just someone processing maybe it won't look as troubling to you.

bunny

Anonymous

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N Letter Writers... do they all do this?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2005, 11:02:42 PM »
True enough.  I was just processing, too.  But it wasn't my thread :)

I think this whole thing echoed some stuff I've been experiencing with my family, but I haven't resolved all of it so everything is sitting there, a little stirred up, while I figure it out.  I'm not willing to declare them hopeless, but sometimes it really helps just to act as if they are (because sometimes they indicate that they are!).  Relationships are complicated...

I guess my primary concern was just that if we as a thread take a particularly strong stance about what is "true", we could sway all of the reasoning one way or another and set us all back a bit.   It's hard when you're asking advice, especially from people as smart as this group, not to take the advice.  Sometimes I have wanted something a little softer, I guess, more open to possibilities that haven't arisen yet.  My reactions weren't to anyone's expressions of feelings, but to the very strong stances about what the mother means and wants and is.  I wanted a little balance to it.  But again, it's not my thread and not really my place to ask for balance.

Hope that clarifies...

Portia

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N Letter Writers... do they all do this?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2005, 09:36:47 AM »
Guest with compassion and worry about the board:
Quote
Ok, off with my head then.

No! That’s not the point. You’re not being attacked, you’re being disagreed with. What I’d like is to see the reason behind your view on this particular topic. If you don’t explain why you think:
Quote
there is something in the e-mails that seems to be expressing vulnerability and the desire to understand
how can I consider your view properly? How can I reconsider my view and perhaps change my mind to fit your view – unless you show me why I might? Where is the evidence for your view – seriously? My views – as leugo – are based upon the content of the emails and on my experience. I have put forward a view based on the actual content as it is displayed here. I have taken time to read and re-read the emails before replying. My replies are considered. So – if I am very wrong in my view, I want to know why, so I can reconsider. I need to see your view and your reasoning, otherwise I have nothing to go on.

I like balance too. I’d like to see an alternative reading of these emails. I’d like to think there is a possibility that the mother did it fact say ‘I’m so sorry….and I hope you are okay and I worry about you etc etc’. That’s why I asked for clarification about what she did say.

So: yes, balance. Please don’t assume that my replies were just gut reactions, they were considered and based on the evidence before my eyes. What are your views based upon? Please clarify further or – let’s consider why you are reacting as you have? But:

Quote
It's hard when you're asking advice, especially from people as smart as this group, not to take the advice.

Smart? Maybe, maybe not, we all have to decide what’s smart for ourselves. But do people just take advice and act upon it without thinking it through themselves? I doubt it, don’t you? We can maybe influence, but people will do what they want or need to do. We don’t have any power here. Thank goodness.
Quote
I think this whole thing echoed some stuff I've been experiencing with my family, but I haven't resolved all of it so everything is sitting there, a little stirred up, while I figure it out.
You can figure it out here you know. I might be jumping on you right now because I feel a bit underestimated by you (and my estimation of myself isn’t all that great some days). So I’m standing up for myself but also, I feel something in you that wants to come out and I also feel that maybe you don’t know if this is the right place? Because the impression is that we’re pretty ‘us and them’ about things? Not so, not really, try it, see how it works out, why not? I don’t like polarised black and white thinking and if that’s what your family stuff is like, let’s talk about it? We could do some thrashing about these emails here, but maybe you’d rather talk about what’s important to you? You’re okay, please keep your head P

bunny

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N Letter Writers... do they all do this?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2005, 10:04:43 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous
True enough.  I was just processing, too.  But it wasn't my thread :)


You can process your stuff on a thread you didn't start. Everyone does.


Quote
I think this whole thing echoed some stuff I've been experiencing with my family, but I haven't resolved all of it so everything is sitting there, a little stirred up, while I figure it out.  I'm not willing to declare them hopeless, but sometimes it really helps just to act as if they are (because sometimes they indicate that they are!).  Relationships are complicated...


Maybe some aspects of your family are hopeless, while other aspects have a potential to get better. Sadly there are some parents discussed here who are so damaged/pathological that the general prognosis is poor. But the hope is still there and that is very painful.



Quote
I guess my primary concern was just that if we as a thread take a particularly strong stance about what is "true", we could sway all of the reasoning one way or another and set us all back a bit.


If it triggers stuff that is painful and brings up a lot of anxiety that is a risk, I will admit. I don't know if it sets everyone back, though. I don't feel set back.



Quote
It's hard when you're asking advice, especially from people as smart as this group, not to take the advice.


I don't think they're taking the advice. I've seen countless advices not taken.  :)


Quote
Sometimes I have wanted something a little softer, I guess, more open to possibilities that haven't arisen yet.  My reactions weren't to anyone's expressions of feelings, but to the very strong stances about what the mother means and wants and is.  I wanted a little balance to it.  But again, it's not my thread and not really my place to ask for balance.


I see what you're saying. You can ask for balance on a thread that isn't yours. There are ways of doing it that are a bit lower key but hey. For example, the phrases, "I'm wondering" or "I'm curious" helps...but this thread ultimately wasn't about the "real" mother or the "real" relationship. It was about feelings evoked by an email. Internal parents were involved, old templates were involved, projections were involved. It was about feelings. If you know what I mean.


Quote
Hope that clarifies...


It did for me anyway. Thanks for posting that explanation.

bunny

Screamer

  • Guest
N Letter Writers... do they all do this?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2005, 11:49:38 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous
Ok, off with my head then.

I can't know the details because they aren't included in the thread-- so of course I reacted just to what I read.

One thing that worries me about these boards (and maybe I'll just have to leave them for awhile) is that any indication that the situation involves a relationship, and that the person we're talking about (the "N" person) is anything other than a cartoon results in indignant responses.  And there is no real talk of what all of us are doing, including what we are doing that reflects our own narcissistic upbringings in families that were truly broken.  There is no way we got out without some narcissistic tendencies of our own-- it's going to come with the territory.  That's true even if our parents didn't have NPD (which mine didn't-- the full fledged thing is very very rare).  And most of us don't have the clinical training to diagnose NPD anyway.

I just worry about all of this judgment of those "others" that goes on,  because it absolves us completely.  I feel as if I'm not allowed to ask what the real story is behind this thread (what is the history there) and, most oddly of all, that I'm just supposed to know it instictively.  And that I have to agree with everyone about it.

This mother does sound irritating.  But that doesn't mean she doesn't have the capacity for some sort of love and reaching out.   [or it may-- but I'm not wrong just because I disagree].


Guest,

Let me first say that I meant you no disrespect.  You are entitled to your opinion and it is as valid as anyone’s.  I welcome all input.  My responses are simply my own opinion and are in no way meant to invalidate yours.

It may honestly sound like I am being judgmental and not being responsible for my part in the relationship.  This may be true.  My issue is that since I was a small child, I have had to be responsible for everything in the relationship.  Young children are not responsible for the abuses of their parents.  

As an adult, I hold some responsibility, true.  I am responsible for how much I allow, I am responsible for my reaction, I am responsible to take care of myself and my family.  Sometimes this means self-protection.  If a woman is married to a physically abusive man is she responsible for the abuse or is she responsible to take care of herself and get out of the relationship.  She may genuinely be contributing to a bad relationship.  But ultimately she has to get out of it and then work on herself.

I can't diagnose my mother.  She may not have a personality disorder.  However, my feelings and experiences have been the same as many that I read on this board.  Whether she is a true NPD or not, I have lived the life of an NPD's child.  I'm finding my own voice and have been fortunate to find a place to shout it out.  (Hence the nick Screamer).  I don't have to quietly take it anymore.  NPD or just a pain in the ASS... doesn't matter.  The effect is the same, the feelings are the same and the healing process is the same.

I would also insist that I am not being judgmental.  I am speaking my truth, finally.  Is it being judgmental to call an ostrich a flightless bird.  They can't fly, they never will.  History is a teacher.  I don't think my mother is anymore capable of genuinely reaching out than an ostrich is of flying.  Our history does not indicate that she is capable.  

As far as our own N tendencies.  If we don't address our upbringing and see it for what it is, we won't be able to address those things in ourselves.  We have to see the truth and speak the truth and acknowledge the truth for what it is.  Then we can overcome it and do better by our friends and families.  

This is my truth.  This is the reality that I lived.  It is not a judgment or an attempt to be a clinician.  It is not an absolution of my responsibility.  It is an affirmation of it.  I am responsible for my own life, I claim my life and I will live my life!  This is my truth!

Anonymous

  • Guest
N Letter Writers... do they all do this?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2005, 12:05:20 PM »
Screamer and Guest and anyone,

I'm an Introvert Judgemental, no doubt about it! :roll:  The word judgement gets mis-used and misinterpreted I think. It's okay to have decision-making judgements (or open-ended perceptions). Screamer, I bet you're a J too?

And Guest, are you a P perceiver?

Sometimes these basic differences can account for different ways of interpreting things. Portia

Screamer

  • Guest
N Letter Writers... do they all do this?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2005, 12:44:00 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
Screamer and Guest and anyone,

I'm an Introvert Judgemental, no doubt about it! :roll:  The word judgement gets mis-used and misinterpreted I think. It's okay to have decision-making judgements (or open-ended perceptions). Screamer, I bet you're a J too?

And Guest, are you a P perceiver?

Sometimes these basic differences can account for different ways of interpreting things. Portia


Guest,  I am an Introver, Thinker, iNtuitive, Judger.  I am a very low T,  I would consider myself and F/T

You are right.  These can have a significant impact on how information is interpreted and communicated.  

I truly intend no disrespect to anyone on this board.  I really hope that the other guest believes that!!  If there is any place we should all be free to express ourselves as ourselves it should be here!

vunil

  • Guest
N Letter Writers... do they all do this?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2005, 08:20:24 AM »
Hi, it's me, the previous "guest."

I think what's going on here is that I was trying to figure out what was "true" about everything.  It's an odd thing to do here-- what's true is what you feel.  Thanks everyone for pointing that out.  And this is our place to have a voice-- it's really a precious thing.  The N people in our lives certainly get their say all over the place and it's nice to have this santuary away from them.

I'm sorry if I seemed too blunt or insenstive--  

All of this got me thinking about some stuff about my childhood and where it led me, so I started a new thread there about it.  I wonder if any others have had my experience?  Feel free to hop on board there :)

vunil

  • Guest
N Letter Writers... do they all do this?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2005, 08:22:13 AM »
Hi, it's me, the previous "guest."

I think what's going on here is that I was trying to figure out what was "true" about everything.  It's an odd thing to do here-- what's true is what you feel.  Thanks everyone for pointing that out.  And this is our place to have a voice-- it's really a precious thing.  The N people in our lives certainly get their say all over the place and it's nice to have this santuary away from them.

I'm sorry if I seemed too blunt or insensitive--  

All of this got me thinking about some stuff about my childhood and where it led me, so I started a new thread there about it.  I wonder if any others have had my experience?  Feel free to hop on board there :)