Author Topic: INTJ "chat"  (Read 8826 times)

Portia

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INTJ "chat"
« on: February 21, 2005, 09:41:32 AM »
Is the thread title a paradox? Maybe not?

I heard about this book on the radio today, “Going Sane” by Adam Phillips. Sounds good. If you’re in the UK, there’s a South Bank Show about him on Sunday 6th March at 11.05pm.

Quote
Insanity is often seen as having a powerful and mysterious creativity, which is both feared and envied. Yet whilst the mad have been endlessly written about, sung about and dramatised, the sane have been completely ignored. In general, little is said about what sanity is apart from it being the absence of madness.

Renowned and controversial psychoanalyst, Adam Phillips, talks to Melvyn Bragg and argues that rather than seeing sanity as ‘normal’, ‘sensible’ or ‘conformist’, we need a completely new vision of what it means to be sane. His inquiry takes us on a colourful journey through madness in life, art and literature, from Hamlet and King Lear to Alice in Wonderland, and from Freud and sex to RD Laing and shopping.

“The sane person is the person who can include their madness without being overwhelmed by it. And yet for some reason this doesn’t catch on. It’s as though it’s not a good enough idea. People really actually want to believe that artists are mad”, says Philips.


I'm interested in:

"This programme … argues that sanity should be risk-taking, creative and surprising rather than predictable, conformist and boring.

“I think that sanity is, on the one hand, a reassuring compact of normality. But I think it’s also a cover story for anxieties we have about not being quite as sane as we would wish”, says Phillips. "


Well that’s a topic starter. I agree with the last two ideas, about sanity being creative and non-conformist and that ‘normality’ is a cover for anxieties!

But really, I felt I was an INFJ and now I think I’m an INTJ. Which explains a lot about how I have never fitted in. How about you? All topics and random thoughts can go here…

PS So I posted this and then thought, hang on, am I being exclusive, clique-making? I don't want to do that. So I better say, hey, if it needs saying (?) all welcome okay? Shall I second-guess myself again? Is that a trait?? :roll:

mum

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INTJ "chat"
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2005, 10:02:30 AM »
Portia: thanks for the laugh...second guessing.

I am an artist and have been told I would do better if I were less sane.

My fiance's brother is insane (certified) and an artist but I don't see him producing any more work  than me.
I don't produce much because I am a full time mom and full time teacher of art (so as to fulfill the mom responsibility...my real creative job!).

He doesn't produce much because he is an artist and insane so he doesn't have to.  He has no income, is in his fifities and lives off of his elderly mother, whom he intimidates.  He likes to berate people who have bills, jobs and responsibilities.
He told me long ago, that I needed to experience "reality" to become an artist.  I wonder if his years in a psych ward are his idea of reality.

In high school, my artistic type friends and I would take great joy in discussing "what is reality?", one was even fond of standing up and yelling that in assemblies. He is now a "suit" with an insurance company.

mum

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INTJ "chat"
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2005, 10:41:58 AM »
Portia: I just realized, on another thread, what you meant about the clique. Ooh, have I infiltrated?  (tongue firmly in cheeck). Can I take the I/E test somewhere so I can join?  The only "measurement" of this I ever did called me "quietly extroverted".  Whatever.
I resist labels like crazy, (although I think the n one fits my ex just fine....he like labels anyway!) but anacronyms are fun..
I am certain I can be a PITA!

mum

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INTJ "chat"
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2005, 10:48:32 AM »
and typos and poor spelling are even more fun than ACRONYMS.

bunny

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INTJ "chat"
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2005, 12:09:58 PM »
Hi Portia,

Great topic.

It's crap that the great artists are insane. Does anyone remember Rubens, Da Vinci, Michelangelo (eccentric, not insane), Shakespeare (wrote about insanity, not insane), Beethoven, Mozart (eccentric, not insane), Liszt, all the book illustrators, architects, designers, photographers, craftsmen, and about a million others? COME ON. Creativity isn't limited to the insane. Being interesting isn't limited to the insane. Insane people can be pretty tedious.

I agree that sane people have insane parts inside, but they are able to tolerate and manage these parts. Insane people are so fragile that these parts can't be contained and they take over. It's about ego strength more than anything else.

And p.s. I don't know my personality type but there must be an "I" in there.


bunny

bunny

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INTJ "chat"
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2005, 02:13:36 PM »
Okay I went to the link and clicked on the boxes. I scored ISTJ. Don't know what sensing means.

I don't think people want artists to be mad. It's a stereotype with some truth to it, as some famous artists were mad. So were some accountants. But they weren't famous.  Any biography is more interesting if the person had quirks, madness, etc.

bunny

bunny as guest

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INTJ "chat"
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2005, 02:17:56 PM »
Okay I just read the description of ISTJ and it describes me very inaccurately. Maybe I failed the test....

bunny

mum

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INTJ "chat"
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2005, 02:23:01 PM »
As an artist and teacher of same, the discussion regarding artist's personalities are always coming up in my life.  Once, in a discussion with some of my student's parents regarding growing up with dogs, I shared that my parents found me sleeping with the dog (in his bed), frequently as a child (and that I had 8 siblings).  One woman said: "oh, that sounds so very bohemian!  How exciting and unusual your life is, I can just picture it!"
I was stunned, and clearly she didn't "picture it" at all, I had nothing at all
of a "bohemian" childhood.  It was just so funny to me, so far out of her experience that she assumed, because I am an artist, some strange picture of my life.

My students are always fascinated with Vincent Van Gogh.  Even pre-instruction, most know that he "cut off his ear".  This amazes them.  
It is sometimes frustrating for me as a teacher to get them beyond that.

Here are a few ideas on this subject:
 One is that we spend quite bit of our lives (people in general) trying to cover what we really are....we get stories/experiences about ourselves and stick with them....they become us.  When we are asked to express/ourselves in art, it can be frightening and a possible threat to that image/story.

Here is another thought:  There is a bit of a conspiracy in art....that somehow not everybody can be artistic or experience that type of expression of self first hand.  I think a lot of artists like everybody else to feel that it is some enormous mystery. My personal quest as a teacher of art is to expose this.
It's simply not true.  Take the idea of being able to "draw" well, (realistically).  People are taught they either have "talent' or they don't.
But that's crap.  It's skill.....and like any skill it can be learned.  Some "talented" people have perhaps a better developed right brain, or some other pre-disposing factors, such as genetics, environment, experience.
But anybody can create art.

The other thing is that not everybody WANTS to understand everything. I have a nephew who is a race car driver.  I would never in a million years choose that, and am in awe of it.  He can explain it so that I feel I could possibly do it...even want to,  but I don't.  People want art to stay mysterious I think.

One of my sisters is a math professor.  THAT completely blows me away.  I feel I have no capacity for it.  But I think if I had not had "new math" instruction in the 60's in gradeschool, and had her for a teacher instead, I would be competent in math.  I still may not choose it for a career, but it should have been demystified for me as a child.

mum

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INTJ "chat"
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2005, 02:36:03 PM »
Ok, I took said test and got a label of ENFP. Part of the description included  rebelling (against such things, I would say).  Ha!  
does this mean I am out of the club?

Anonymous

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INTJ "chat"
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2005, 03:26:13 PM »
Quote from: bunny as guest
Okay I just read the description of ISTJ and it describes me very inaccurately. Maybe I failed the test....

bunny


For what it's worth bunny- I think both sides of the ISTJ coin fit your board persona quite closely. :) I hope that helps.  

NJ

vunil

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INTJ "chat"
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2005, 04:53:27 PM »
Mum,

I am ENFP, too.  I think it's a fabulous thing to be!  I think it is rare, not sure why.  Maybe some experts can tell us.  In general I don't totally "get" the test and I'm not sure it's accurate beyond self-understanding.  But that's what we're doing here, so cool.

I remember I scored really strongly "N" which I think means I am floating in the theoretical clouds at all times.  Sounds about right.

This means I am exactly the opposite of Bunny.  Which explains why I need her help so much!

Vunil

longtire

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INTJ "chat"
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2005, 01:37:31 PM »
I thought I would have tons to say in an INTJ chat, but being this way is more about how I am and how I talk about things, rather than WHAT I walk about.  Is that INTJ enough for this thread?   :D     I tend not to joke around in general forums because most people don't even realize that I'm joking, let alone "get" the joke.

Seriously, though, as an INTJ I find it difficult to directly express my thoughts and feelings.  It feels like I always have to add caveats and say things like "this is just my experience," "I believe," "somewhere between a and b", "somewhat," etc.  Black and white is so far away from me, I only see the world in subtle shades of grey.  But, there are so many beautiful and nuanced shades of grey I feel priveleged to see them.

I also catch myself reporting about myself, instead of just coming right out with it.  Instead of saying "I like x", I say things like "I'm the kind of person who likes x."  I'm not sure if this is an INTJ trait or more of a "Sensitive Person" trait.  Does anyone else have this?
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

October

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Re: INTJ "chat"
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2005, 01:47:13 PM »
Quote from: Portia


Insanity is often seen as having a powerful and mysterious creativity, which is both feared and envied. Yet whilst the mad have been endlessly written about, sung about and dramatised, the sane have been completely ignored. In general, little is said about what sanity is apart from it being the absence of madness.



Insanity is what I fear more than anything else.  I am an artist - of sorts - I paint in oils and acrylic, and I write prose and non prose.  But I find that my creative spirit is lacking a lot of the time -  makes everything a chore - because of the depression I have.   :oops:

Maybe if I went mad I would be more creative.   :lol:

longtire

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Finding other INTJ's
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2005, 09:08:59 PM »
Where do INTJ's hang out?  I know we are only <1% of the population, but there have to millions of others out there.  How is it that it feels like I never run into others?  Because they don't go out much?  Because I don't go out much?  Where do we go when we do go out?  Bookstore, coffee shop, grocery store, concerts, lectures?  Probably not as much to clubs, sporting events, etc.
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

CHICKSQUIP

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INTJ Chat
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2005, 09:42:06 PM »
Question:    I've caught myself wondering if INTJ's relate to God similarly  to  the way they relate to their fellowman?   I mean, how  does one's personality (speaking  of Briggs Myers/Keirsey typing) affect the way they perceive God or relate to Him?  Is this question too weird?