S.O.S.

[bunny]

Well, he came home and acted as if nothing was wrong.  He apologized to our daughter for not communicating with her better.  That's great, but he is neglecting me.  When I let him know I felt devalued and ignored he very logically pointed out that he apologized for his part yesterday.

Note that your H is shame-based and can't tolerate apologizing directly. To him this is life-or-death. He unconsciously feels an apology is total humiliation and subjugation (death). He needs to learn how to apologize without feeling utterly degraded and shamed to the core. The therapist has to teach him.

Chutzbagirl, this is not about you. Unfortunately you are the target of it. And that can't go on. A good couples therapist can make himself the target so that the wife is spared. Can you phone your T between sessions when you're despondent about your H's selfishness?

bunny

[chutzbagirl]

Bunny,

How can it be that you seem to nail my H?  Thank you.  When I asked him for a sympathetic apology he said, "What, do you want me to grovel?"  

Inside I was thinking, "You better grovel you *****."  But, I said, apologizing from the heart does not mean groveling.  Hmmm, I will also call my T later - good advice.  

I'm not getting a lot done these days - but that's life I guess.

chutz

[bunny]

I know about your husband because I have the same problem he has. I've gotten much better and it was couples therapy that helped me.  

bunny

[chutzbagirl]

Bunny,

Is it really possible that a man as selfish as my H can become as insightful and encouraging as you?  I can't even fathom the possiblity.

If you would like to pm me about your starting point and journey to wellness I would love to know your story.  My T keeps telling me he sees potential in my H.  I just don't see it right now.  

I'm trying to be easy on myself and not beat myself up for being unproductive today.  I don't have the energy.  I want to save what I do have for the kids when they get home from school.

chutz

[Stormchild]

Chutz - you are getting something done, it's just not exterior and doesn't result in paper or money or groceries...

((((((((((bunny)))))))))), your honesty puts me in awe.

[Anonymous]

I am willing to let him sit in the dog-house for as long as it takes for him to realize he is acting like a b*****d.  ( Did I just say that? )

Hey chutz

as a fellow asterisks syndrome sufferer, do you notice how hard it is to say
b-asterisk-asterisk-asterisk-asterisk-asterisk-d? talk about tongue twisters!  

simple way to do quotes: type in the BBcode. I'll do it with extra spaces so the system doesn't recognize it as code.

To quote mud, you would type [quote = "mud"], without the spaces on either side of the =, to start. Then paste in what he said, and at the end, type [/ quote] without the space after the slash.

to quote without using the persons name, you type [ quote] to start and [ /quote] at the end of the section, again without the extra space behind the first square bracket.

woiks like a chahm.

anytime you need to cuss to a fellow sailor lady, just PM me and let 'er rip, with or without asterisks. Peter was a sailor. I bet he knew some real interesting Aramaic words      

[chutz]

Will the last person to post on this thread please identify yourself.  You sound like a lot of fun to post with....

[Stormchild Guesting]

oh that was me. sorry, my brains are soggy newspaper and i forget to sign when i'm not logged in.

d'oh!

[longtire]

chutzbagirl, I agree with Stormchild.  You are doing HARD work right now.  It is the internal kind that you can't see, but means far more in the end than any concrete action you could take.

The more I hear about your story, the more similarities I see to my own situation.  The "cluelessness" and avoidance of intimacy.  Like my wife, your H is absolutely convinced that you are the cause of all "problems" and indeed "create" the problems where none exist (at least to him).  If he was truly engaged in your relationship, he would be offering help to you solve "your problems", especially if he thought that could help improve his situation.  After all, haven't you reached out to him to try to get a better relationship ofr yourself?

People who act this way blame and occasionally give the appearance of reaching out in order to look good, but never actually reach out to have a relationship in a mutual way.  It doesn't seem like a very happy way to live, but their fear must win out over happiness.

[chutzbagirl]

Great, just great....

Spoke with my T, he said H does have some changing to do but will never be the warm fuzzy type - he is very intellectual.  A high TJ for those of you who are familiar with Myer's Briggs.  

He recommends I forgive the man and move towards him.  T continues to have hope.  Bunny, I pray that you are an example of what my H is capable of.  One of the steps in the 12 step program I'm in, forget which one, talks about making amends.  Since I'm not in any contact with my M, I'm unable to do any amends or practice unconditional love in person.  So, I think my H is my living button pusher who I get the opportunity to practice forgiveness and patience with.  

Oh bother, the thought of forgiving him feels like a hot coal in my heart.  He really hurt my feelings.     He is just about 2 short of 70 x 7.  

Trudging along,

chutz

[Stormchild Guesting]

Say whaaaaat?

Your T thinks YOU are the one who needs to do the work here???? YOU are the one who has to do the accomodating??????

Doesn't he think you've already done rather more than your share for years and years?

Scuse me, I'm gonna defer on this one to Bunny and Longtire, they have more of a right to comment on this than I do, just now. But:

Lots and lots of asterisks, and a bunch of these things too @*%!(%$++^@("{^^$!(*!!!!!!!!!!!!

[longtire]

Spoke with my T, he said H does have some changing to do but will never be the warm fuzzy type - he is very intellectual.  A high TJ for those of you who are familiar with Myer's Briggs.

I take umbrage with this description.  I am very INTJ.  It does affect HOW I deal with things, but it does NOT keep me from being warm and fuzzy.  Besides, it is logical to me that if I have hurt someone's feelings that I need to apologize and work to make the situation right (as well as figure out how NOT to do that again in the future).

Scuse me, I'm gonna defer on this one to Bunny and Longtire, they have more of a right to comment on this than I do, just now.

I don't know about having more of a right.  I don't feel like I have things figured out at all.  But, I'll respond anyway....

He recommends I forgive the man and move towards him.  T continues to have hope.  Bunny, I pray that you are an example of what my H is capable of.  One of the steps in the 12 step program I'm in, forget which one, talks about making amends.  Since I'm not in any contact with my M, I'm unable to do any amends or practice unconditional love in person.  So, I think my H is my living button pusher who I get the opportunity to practice forgiveness and patience with.  

Did your T say why he thought you should move toward your H?  What does he have hope of happening?  Why does he believe that will happen?  I understand that it can be a good thing for the T to hold onto hope or other feelings when we can't for ourselves.  It just seems like it would be a lot easier on you if you knew more about why your T believes these things.  Maybe he knows something you don't or maybe he is the one who doesn't have all the information.

Forgiveness is a good thing and you can do it all by yourself.  Reconciliation depends on the other person taking steps toward you as well.  Otherwise, you are simply tolerating a problem situation, which will not change.  I thought that amends are what you do to make up for your hurting someone else, not for being the one who is hurt.  As for patience, everyone has their limits.  I think it is better to start setting consequences (boundaries) for problems before reaching the end of your patience.  Does your H seem distraught about you pulling back?  Has he noticed?

Oh bother, the thought of forgiving him feels like a hot coal in my heart.  He really hurt my feelings.     He is just about 2 short of 70 x 7.  

chutzbagirl, forgiveness is for you so you don't have to carry around a heavy load of anger and resentment.  I recommend it for that reason. Reconciliation and opening yourself back up to be hurt again with no expectation of different behavior is a separate decision.  The choices and timing are up to you when you are ready.

[bunny]

He recommends I forgive the man and move towards him.  T continues to have hope.

He has a point, but this isn't what I'd recommend saying over the phone. It's not the right time. Anyway, your T is saying you're more functional than your husband and you would get more success from being understanding than from being punitive. It's a question of pragmatism, really.

You don't have to forgive your husband right now. You're very angry and he is being a pill. And now you're angry with your therapist. (tell him that as soon as you can.) I've actually been on both sides here: his and yours. When you're a bit calmer, realize that he is in a life-or-death struggle even if you can't understand it. This is not about you. Try to detach from his behavior because it's really not about you. And find ways to communicate with this man that don't involve intense feelings. That will only frighten the heck out of him. The calmer you are, the better response you'll get out of him.

I dont' know whether he is a big loser in general, or whether you've had a decent marriage.There are probably ways to be with him. You may have to be the one who re-adapts first. But he is in therapy which is pretty hopeful.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi ya'all,

I take umbrage with this description.  I am very INTJ.  It does affect HOW I deal with things, but it does NOT keep me from being warm and fuzzy.  Besides, it is logical to me that if I have hurt someone's feelings that I need to apologize and work to make the situation right (as well as figure out how NOT to do that again in the future).

Longtire, how long ago did you take that test?  I totally challenge the results.  If you're not a 'feeler' than I'm stumped.  I live with two TJ's - husband and daughter; son is cut like his mommy = FP.  We could go back and forth on that one.  

Anyways, Bunny, no he is not a total looser.  He has been a committed provider.  He is just not available emotionally and tends to be critical, judgemental and caustic.  Sometimes we can have a good time together.  We connect intellectually - it's the heart stuff that is bringing me down.  He does not put himself out for others.  I love putting myself out for others - planning parties, encouraging people, helping people grow.  I have to be careful to not give too much.  

He is very fearful about things like finances and his health.  He does not have the ability to be empathic with my pain.  Recovery has been a very lonely path for me.  At first he fought my recovery tooth and nail.  I hung tough and it paid off.  When things get ugly he accuses me of not making progress - painful stuff.  My emotional/spiritual connections with him are difficult at best.  Why is he in a life and death struggle.  I don't get it.  Why are my emotions so scary for him?  Can you help me understand.  If I can get some empathy for the man it would really help.

chutz

[longtire]

I take umbrage with this description.  I am very INTJ.  It does affect HOW I deal with things, but it does NOT keep me from being warm and fuzzy.  Besides, it is logical to me that if I have hurt someone's feelings that I need to apologize and work to make the situation right (as well as figure out how NOT to do that again in the future).

Longtire, how long ago did you take that test?  I totally challenge the results.  If you're not a 'feeler' than I'm stumped.  I live with two TJ's - husband and daughter; son is cut like his mommy = FP.  We could go back and forth on that one.  

I have taken the test several times and the result is pretty consistent.  I do straddle the line between INTJ/INTP.  Keep in mind, that this just indicates the "preferred" way of dealing with things.  People with no "T" in there still have the ability to think and people with no "F" still have feelings.  That was the point I didn't seem to make very well the first time.

Anyways, Bunny, no he is not a total looser.  He has been a committed provider.  He is just not available emotionally and tends to be critical, judgemental and caustic.  Sometimes we can have a good time together.  We connect intellectually - it's the heart stuff that is bringing me down.  He does not put himself out for others.  I love putting myself out for others - planning parties, encouraging people, helping people grow.  I have to be careful to not give too much.

Can you get the heart stuff you need somewhere else?  (I am not talking about an affair.)  Is there enough good in this marriage for you if you can get some needs met outside?

He is very fearful about things like finances and his health.  He does not have the ability to be empathic with my pain.  Recovery has been a very lonely path for me.  At first he fought my recovery tooth and nail.  I hung tough and it paid off.  When things get ugly he accuses me of not making progress - painful stuff.  My emotional/spiritual connections with him are difficult at best.  Why is he in a life and death struggle.  I don't get it.  Why are my emotions so scary for him?  Can you help me understand.  If I can get some empathy for the man it would really help.

I get the feeling from your posts that he is actually very fearful and insecure.  Striking out may be his way of feeling capable and powerful.  Unfortunately I think that his understanding and accepting he is an adult even though he may not always feel like it emotionally is the only way to truly address his problems.