S.O.S.

[longtire]

Bunny, that makes sense.  I think my issues got tweaked by your statement meant for a different situation and I had a reaction.  I agree that I don't see any fabricating going on in the situation betweem chutzbagirl and husband.  This made me aware of how sensitive I am to denial and especially invalidation right now.  They are not the same thing and I think I was reacting as if they are.  Sorry about that.

[chutz]

Hi Longtire and Bunny,  (& everybody else)

I'm having difficulty, maybe because I didn't follow all of Longtire's thread, why his situation is different.  If you could succinctly explain what you guys are talking about it would help me.  

Sometimes the pain of this marriage is so overwhelming it 'feels' like things could never get better.  (That may be my childhood speaking.)  I also know that H does have a very difficult time with relationships and things seem to be getting worse right now.  That's frustrating for me because my grief over detaching seems to be getting better.  I'd love to be free of emotional c**p for a while.

T never did call back.  I see him on Monday and plan on giving him an ear full.  I've been a pretty 'low needs' client - hardly any midweek calls, etc..I think he blew this one.  

chutz

[Anonymous]

Longtire was relating more to his own situation which isn't like yours. In his situation, his wife distorts everything to a pathological degree, denies all responsibility, does not make any effort, and is in a dissociated (amnesiac) state where she forgets all the stuff he said, what she did, etc. I don't think that's your situation.

I know it feels really bad right now, but your husband is planning a surprise for Saturday. Maybe you can try to remember that.

I think your therapist is really being bizarre. I can't imagine why he hasn't called you. What if you were suicidal?! There is something wrong with him IMO.

bunny

[chutz]

Hi Bunny,

Thanks for that reply.  I spent some time reading Longtire's thread, but not enough I guess to really understand how sick she is.  That's too bad.  I'm sorry Longtire.  

My T has been working with me for a few years now.  I think he knows I would not take my life.  He knows I'm a toughie.  After I saw him on Monday he said he was going to wait to make a call on couples counseling.  After meeting with H, he decided, for some unknown reason, to hold off.  We will discuss this issue on Monday.

My sponsor, reminds me to be willing to pray to be willing to receive the good my H has to offer.  It can be tough to see; I know he is making the best effort he is capable of at this time.

There is a saying I've heard in Al Anon:  "If you were raised by alcoholics, you either become one, marry one or marry someone who is obsessive enough to fulfill you compulsive need for abandonment."  

Alhtough there are times when my H and I are connected, I've experienced an unhealthy dose of abandonment over the past 17 years.  I know it's not all him.  I know it and I'm willing to do my part.  It's just really hard.  

chutz

[mudpuppy]

I don't doubt that the truth will not set him free, and I don't doubt that they need mediation to help them solve their  problems.

I do however have a hard time with the the notion that there is 'his truth' and 'her truth' but no objective truth.
She says she wants him to be emotionally available because his distance and sarcasm and cutting remarks are making it impossible for her to stay in the marriage. She states that she more than anything wants a good healthy marital relationship.
He then says that it seems like she wants to leave him.
How is his statement any kind of truth? If she wanted to leave him she would be filling up the old Samsonites not sitting at the computer pouring her heart out about how much she wants him to value her so she can stay in the marriage.
And it is not plausible that she is complaining of his inattentiveness now, so she'll have an excuse to leave in 15 years after the kids are out of college.
To deny that there is a core of objective truth in any situation seems to give equal legitimacy to both view points, even if one is completely fanciful and one is sincere and faithful to the facts.
If their is one party bent on manipulation and dishonesty, aren't they given all the power by the denial of objective truth?
Isn't this one of the worst problems we have all had with the Ns in our lives? Their fanatical adherence to denying objective truth. Isn't that one of the main sources of their power?
I'm not saying Chutz's hubby is an N. Nor am I saying his side of things is completely dishonest. I'm just saying there is his perception, her perception and the truth. And usually one person's perception is a lot closer to the truth than the other's is.

mudpup

[Anonymous]

mudpup,

His idea about her leaving him resulted from his reading this thread. She said flat-out that she was considering divorce. He read that and used it against her. It's a volatile situation right now, where both parties are going to take anything the other says and run with it. There's a lot of drama going on and I think the therapist could cut through it.  Her husband also needs help. They both do. I'm not excusing his crappy mother's day behavior BUT he seems to be attempting to compensate by planning a surprise for her on Saturday.

The truth here (imo) is that both parties trigger and provoke each other, and they need someone to help them change those behaviors that trigger the other. What they accuse each other of is not the main issue, imo.

bunny

[mudpuppy]

bunny,

I'm not excusing his crappy mother's day behavior BUT he seems to be attempting to compensate by planning a surprise for her on Saturday.

Maybe reading what she said about divorce woke him up a little. He seems to be reconsidering his first reaction. Its easy to coast and become complacent and not take things seriously enough until we're reminded what the stakes are.
I hope they have a great Saturday.

Where does the fear of apologizing or backing down come from?
Fear of looking weak and vulnerable?
Fear of giving the other party control or a weapon to use in the future?
I assume it comes from being shamed as a child. Correct?
Or maybe a-shamed of the childhood family situation?

There's a lot of drama going on and I think the therapist could cut through it.

Except he's playing golf this week.

mud

[bunny as guest]

mud,

I'm sure reading about divorce scared the heck out of him. However this isn't how spouses communicate in a healthy marriage so I hope they both get help on that. I know from experience that these extreme dramas are not good for the marriage. So I hope they get help on de-escalation skills.

Where does the fear of apologizing or backing down come from?
Fear of looking weak and vulnerable?
Fear of giving the other party control or a weapon to use in the future?
I assume it comes from being shamed as a child. Correct?
Or maybe a-shamed of the childhood family situation?

Correct on all counts. On a deeper psychic level, the person wordlessly feels like they will literally fall apart, go into psychosis, not be grounded in reality anymore, and die, if they experience one more degree of shame. This can happen in the space of one second; the person goes into a pocket of primitive thinking (they are very regressed even if they are speaking like an adult). They abuse their spouse, the spouse is reasonably injured, and then a therapist needs to repair the damage. A therapist who understands this would try to get him curious about how powerfully he reacts, and how deep his terror is. From there, he may get curious about being terrified and he may start questioning whether it's necessary. This is years of work, btw. And in the case of his wife, there is the deep yearning for appreciation, recognition, and credit that she may have to "put in escrow" with the therapist until her husband grows up enough to deal with it. It seems he's already making huge progress because he planned a surprise. That is like an apology. It's certainly a reparative act. So I hope it works out!  


bunny

[mudpup]

bunny,

Correct on all counts.

Hooray! Mark this day on your calender. Nobody's told me that since my high school geometry teacher. And that was only because I sat behind the smartest kid in school who was very short, while I was very tall. And I had 20/10 vision.    

It seems he's already making huge progress because he planned a surprise. That is like an apology. It's certainly a reparative act. So I hope it works out!

I thought this was huge progress too, but didn't want to say so cause I thought I'd sound like a dope, but if you said it too then it can't be dopey.

I hope Chutz keeps her expectations low and that he will wildly exceed them.

Note to her hubby, if he's still reading this thread. Next time you surprise her don't tell her you're surprisng her. Not being a wise a$$, just letting you know it REALLY knocks a gals socks off (and other things too   ) when a surprise is a COMPLETE surprise.

mudpup

[Anonymous]

Hi mud,

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet...to Chutzba's husband, mother's day might trigger feelings about his mother. So he may not have positive, happy feelings about mother's day. And therefore he passive-aggressively neglected to make sure it got taken care of. This is how immature people sometimes deal with powerful feelings, they find it hard to separate their mother and their wife, or their child and their mother, etc. So he "somehow" managed to screw up mother's day. It was really about getting back at his own mother. And maybe getting back at Chutzbagirl's mother as well. This is where a therapist can understand these associations -- if he isn't out on the golf course.

bunny

[chutz]

Hi,

Bunny and Mudpup - seems like you are having an intriguing conversation.  Bunny, just to let you know, I communicated the degree of my pain and uncertainty of my ability to continue dealing with it before he read the post.  That's when he said - "Where are you going?"  He said the comment about just staying with him until the kids are out of college after he read it.

Also, M's day (Who invented this holiday anyways?) was the climax of several difficult months/years.  I have been in a despairing place for a while.    I think dealing with the chronic negativity, anxiety about $ (which I don't even think is valid), judgement, etc...has just plain old worn me out.  I had a very special event that I was in charge of the weekend before M's day.  Although the event went very well, I received a lot of discouragement and negative input beforehand.  That was tough.  In general, I feel like I'm swimming towards a good destination but against the current.  Tiring...I hope my spouse and I will learn to work together instead of against each other.

I am still praying to be willing to be willing to receive what ever good my H has to offer me tonight.  Sounds like he is spending some $ - I need to let him know that when he complains about spending  $ during or after the gift giving or special event it just doesn't feel good!  We really are just fine - it's fear and anxiety.  Btw, it has taken me a while to really get that truth and not go on the fear rollercoaster myself.

So, I guess that's all for now.  Seems like I wanted to say something else, but it fell out of my head.     I hope you all have a great Saturday.  My little girl has a double-header in girl's fast pitch and she's scared.  She's facing the scariest pitcher today.  Send good thoughts her way!  I hope she smacks that ball.  

chutz

[Anonymous]

I hope my spouse and I will learn to work together instead of against each other.

YOU'VE GOT IT.  

We really are just fine - it's fear and anxiety.  Btw, it has taken me a while to really get that truth and not go on the fear rollercoaster myself.

I hope your husband can hear this.  

Good luck to your daughter, I wish her the best in her game today.

bunny

[Stormchild]

((((((((((Chutz))))))))))

Wishing you a wonderful surprise and your daughter a smashing home run...

[chutz]

Well...our night was a success.     He surprised me with a very yummy dinner and a play.  I love live theatre.  Then, we were sitting on a deck enjoying a cocktail, over looking a river when we were totally suprised with a wonderful fireworks display.  We had a perfect view.  It felt like it was just for us.  

We didn't talk about anything difficult until we were driving home.  (I did apologize for hurting him during the cocktail and he apologized as well.)  We are having some pretty serious discussions about church right now.  He wants to leave, I feel called to minister.  It's a pretty big disagreement.  So, I told him "he may be right" and asked him to seriously explore the topic with our counselor and another man in his life.  He said he would.  I will trust God to lead us in this matter as well.  It's so nice to not have to do God's job anymore.  

As I said a while earlier in this thread, the main lesson for me has been to detach from taking responsiblity for his emotional reality.  Taking emotional responsibility for others is a huge part of my consequences of being raised by N's.  So, him blaming me on M's day pushed an incredibly painful button for me.  For him, according to Bunny, admitting he is wrong feels like death; for me, detaching feels like death.  Thank you for helping me to walk through a painful week.  In some sense, part of me did die.  But, that is a part of the unhealthy me - the part of me that falsely believes I am responsible for his emotional and spiritual health.  The effects of N are so subtle that I don't even know they are there until they raise their ugly, painful heads.  

Thanks again and take care everybody,

chutz

[Brigid]

Chutz,

I'm so glad you had a lovely evening.  I hope it just keeps getting better and better.

Blessings,

Brigid