Growing FEAR

[miaxo]

Hi All

Last week my daughter was worried that her Dad would find out that she was scolded by a counselor (teenager) in the after school program for "acting too silly".  Basically I told her that everything had been handled (daughter talked to and corrected about acting inappropriately at program, etc) and that I wasn't planning on bringing it up to Dad.  She responded in a panicked voice that Dad would find out anyway since he knows everything that is going on in my mind.  She went on to tell me that Dad said he's "like a fly on the wall" and always knows whats happening when its happening.    I felt like saying, "Your father knows squat" but I didn't.

I am concerned b/c his comments are intimidating my daughter....which I'm 99.9% was his intention.

I can't recall if I posted (and I am too lazy to look back over my posts) about the incident when my daughter returned from a dinner date with her Dad and she came up on the front porch and began banging ferociously at the glass on the side panel.  Simultaneously I was opening up the garage and was coming out to greet the kids.  I hear the commotion and I go to the front porch.  I call out to my daughter.  She is in such a state of panic that she doesn't even hear me.  She continues her banging and at this point is screaming, "He's watching us, He's watching".  I go up behind her...still calling her name....she doesn't realize I am there until I place my hand on her shoulder.  She jolts to look at me.  I look down at her hand and it is bleeding from all the banging on the glass.  

Sitting at the bottom of my drive, in his car, with his windows open is X N.  He sat there and just watched all this happen.  He never budged, never attempted to get out to see why she was so upset, never blinked an eye.  

No matter how many times I asked her why she was so upset she will just say b/c Dad was watching us.  

Over the last month she has become more fearful of him.  

I'm trying to get to the bottom of why her fear is growing.

Keep in mind that she is now spending increased visitation time with him since he is now taking advantage of his FULL EOWE visits which he never did over the past five years.  

Can emotional/mental abuse alone cause this state of fear??

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Mia

[serena]

I gather she's either 5 or 7 which is much, much too young for a child to have this level of fear around her father.

I don't really know the legalities but is there anyone professional she could talk to?  Even at school?  If she discussed her feelings with a professional, you would be in a much better place to query his visitation rights.  Seems to me they should be supervised.

It's very worrying for you and I hope it works out.

[Anonymous]

Mia,

I'm in my forties and my lovely brother has made such an effort over the years to act like he is a 'fly on the wall' that I feel like he is watching me or can find out what I'm doing half the time. He can't of course, but they exploit the information they do have to sound omniscient and it can get into a persons head. If it can get into a grown man's head who knows better, it can surely scare a little girl who doesn't.

I'm trying to get to the bottom of why her fear is growing.

It sounds to me as though he is ratcheting up the manipulation of your kids. And as they get a little older and more able to think they will become more aware or susceptible to it. Its pretty hard hard for a three year old to react to manipulation. Not so hard for an 8 or 10 year old.
Hopefully however, they will become more susceptible to your explanation of what is going on as well.

Sitting at the bottom of my drive, in his car, with his windows open is X N. He sat there and just watched all this happen. He never budged, never attempted to get out to see why she was so upset, never blinked an eye.

Bet that made his sick little mind feel omnipotent.
What a schmuck!

mudpup

[mum]

Oh, Mia.  I am sick for you....but I do have something encouraging that I found out recently.  Last week, in court, I won the right for my children to speak to someone about their feelings on the visitation schedule.  My ex opposed it, but lost.  
Also, in the last week, I talked to a woman, whose ex had accused her of PAS, and her children were in extensive counseling.  Well, she told me briefly, that the therapist they were seeing has evidence that the children were being emotionally and verbally abused by the father and has now gone to court with her findings.  Obviously, the abuse is not good news, but the mom suspected all along.....but now she has the muscle to back her up.  
Things are moving forward, finally for her and her children.....and I believe they will for us as well.
I have decided to keep my head down, and keep focused on my and my children's emotional health, regardless of the distractions and fear of PAS that is out there.  I know full well I do everything possible to encourage respect for thier father in my children, but I will not encourage them to accept abuse, and this is NOT PAS.
I know your kids are in therapy, and this must be heard.  Have your lawyer file a motion to get his visitation reduced, based on this behavoir of your daughter.....and get this heard.  
I will be with you....and so will all the other mothers protecting thier children!  They may do what they can to silence us but they CANNOT!  
((((((Mia)))))) and ((((((((sweet daughter))))))))

[Anonymous]

Wow, very disturbing stuff. It's hard to say whether she is truly paranoid or whether she wants to show loyalty to you, by how much she dislikes/fears her father. Ultimately it seems the visits to him are very disruptive and traumatic to her. Maybe if she acts out enough at school, they will call CPS on her dad (if she mentions him during the acting out). What does your attorney say?

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi Mia:

This is not usual/normal/typical behaviour of a child returning from a happy, comfortable visit with her dad.  Whatever is going on....is not acceptable because it is causing your child to feel distressed.

I'm with Mum, I think legal steps are in order....at least as Bunny asks...see what your lawyer says??  

As to the school....maybe you could go in and speak with her teachers and see if they have noticed changes/new behaviours and if there is any relation to those dad visits (time-wise).  If so, document and ask them to sign/witness.  I wouldn't be waiting for CPS to get involved because you want to take steps to protect her.....not wait for them to accuse you of not doing so.

This sounds so serious that I would be heading to a medical doctor to boot.  Time for a physical for your daughter and for you to have a chat with your doc.  Hopefully, you have one you feel comfortable speaking with, who will immediately understand and help your daughter feel comfortable.  Take documentation with you.

The thing you don't want to do is become alarmed (which I know sounds really dense of me to say but I mean it).  Don't let fear take over right now.  Document everything in detail.   The more you have written down accurately, the better.   The more you concentrate on what you can do, the better.

Supervised visitation is definately what I would be telling my lawyer I want....absolutely...... for the health and safety and well being of my child.  ASAP.

I wonder if your doctor would consider giving you a note saying that your daughter is not feeling well enough to go visiting at dad's for awhile?  You can point out that the doc writing a note is a necessary step to protect your child, which is what you are concerned with right now.

Ask your lawyer what temporary, emergency steps can be taken.  This child is in distress and it is necessary to prevent  worse from happening.
What would CPS do?

My prayers for you and your little one, Mia.

(((((((Mia and daughter)))))))

GFN

[write]

a much stronger reaction than to be expected, especially the cutting on the glass.

Either he is terrifying the life out of her some way more than just his narcissistic behaviour ( remember most of our n-dads have strange relationships with their kids but the kids aren't terrified of them like this ) or she has developed a mental illness?


I think first off an assessment from a good child psychologist or psychiatrist would be helpful.

And start recording everything, as factually and dispassionatelyas possible, in case you need to go back into court and argue to stop visitation.

[Brigid]

Mia,

You have received good practical information from many here.  I just want to say that I hate him and what he is doing to your daughter.  Why do the children have to be punished because they have an evil parent who never should have been a parent.

I am praying that you and your children can find a way away from this man.  There will need to be repair of the damage down the road, but the sooner it stops the less damage to be repaired.

((((((((Mia & children))))))))))))

Brigid

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the replies.

We had a therapy appt this afternoon.  I spoke at length with my daughter's therapist.  She was concerned.  She has met with X N twice with the last interaction being on Saturday AM.  This was our eighth visit with her.  

She relayed some concerns she had regarding comments X N made to her.  Apparently he goes in there and bashes my daughter to the therapist.  He complains about what a difficult child she is and that she can't interact appropriately with her brother.  The therapist and I were talking alone in a separate room while the kids played together for over 25 minutes.  T asked me if I had problems with the kids at home as far as sibling interaction goes.  Outside of the *normal* kid stuff I honestly don't have any complaints.  T expressed that she didn''t see what X N was saying either.  An example being how well they played the entire time I was with T.  T did notice that my daughter is much more relaxed and willing and to talk when I bring her as opposed to when Dad brings her.

My daughter opened up alot to T and told her how Dad often becomes angry and says many hurtful things to her.  

T said she will address everything with X N when he comes back in two weeks.  He is away on business and will not be having contact with the kids until that time.

T also informed me that X N's attorney phoned her last week and asked her what her role was in all of this???  WTH??  His attorney wanted to know what benefit this was going to be to N.  She said he couldn't understand the concept that she was there to help the children adjust to spending increased time with N.  

My attorney has been advising me to document, document, document.

I don't feel that my daughter is developing a mental illness.  I know how X N operates and he is not afraid to use intimidation tactics at every turn.  My daughter is the spitting image of me and she has a very strong personality and tends to challenge when she feels something is wrong.  I would bet everything that he views her as a mini me.....his nemesis.  Even though he can't stand being around her, he sees her as one of his possessions...something for him to control.  

I was able to escape through divorce.  I am desperately trying to find an escape route for my children.  Right now, my son doesn't show any negative effects from X N but then again he is being favored by N while daughter has always been his target.

With all this craziness going on, my daughter does exceptionally well at school.  I am very open with her teacher and she doesn't see any signs that my daughter is distressed.  

Often my daughter will spill her guts to my Mom.  She loves her G-Mom and tells her just about everything.  I was able to report on many of their conversations to the T today.  

I'm working on getting them away but it won't happen overnight.  As Mum knows it can get very tricky with all the BS related to this PAS crap!

Sometimes (Ok, all the time) I watch X N from inside the house as he's either picking up the kids or dropping them off and I just want to run out there and beat the living crap out of him. Other times when he is five minutes late I start hoping that something happened to him.  I catch myself and say, STOP IT MIA STOP IT MIA....God forbid something will end up happening when he has the kids in the car and that MF'r    would survive.

If you lasted this long, thanks.  I'd better get to bed....not that I'll be able to go to sleep.

Thank you for all your support gang!  I do appreciate it so very much.

Mia

[Anonymous]

T said she will address everything with X N when he comes back in two weeks.

What will this accomplish except to make Dad very angry? Maybe I don't understand how it's going to work. It sounds like she is going to tell him that people have been "telling on him." Then his daughter spends the weekend with him??! Are you also concerned.

bunny

[d'smom]

What will this accomplish except to make Dad very angry? Maybe I don't understand how it's going to work. It sounds like she is going to tell him that people have been "telling on him." Then his daughter spends the weekend with him??! Are you also concerned.

hopefully she will have some tact - and just fish around for information with some delicate questioning. hopefully she wouldnt be so dumb as to implicate the daughter and get her in more trouble. -hopefully-.

[Anonymous]

bunny

I told her I didn't want it addressed with him b/c it would put him right on the defense and he would take it out on daughter.

She assured me that she would do it in such a way that he won't know that daughter *tattled*.  

Right now I am placing my trust in her.  

She knows N has issues with anger management.

Mia

[October]

Hi All

She went on to tell me that Dad said he's "like a fly on the wall" and always knows whats happening when its happening.    I felt like saying, "Your father knows squat" but I didn't.

Mia

I have read about what you are doing with the t, and it sounds as if everyone is being careful to protect your daughter, and you are doing really well, Mia.  The description you give seems to indicate that your daughter is not sure where she ends and her dad begins - understandable enough with an N parent.  Lots of us understand that one.
I am not sure how old your daughter is, but depending on her age, I would think of some games to play with her to help her strengthen her own identity.  Nothing to do with her dad - leave him out of it - but to do with her own self, in relation to you.
For example, you can play a guessing game.  She has to think of a word, and you have to guess what it is.  Every time you guess wrong, she laughs at you, and at the same time learns that you - her own mother - cannot actually read her mind.    Even playing I Spy will teach that same thing.  If you are brave you can say that some people like to think that they can guess what is in another person's head, but they can't.  To prove it, you can think something really outrageous, and they will never know!!!  You can say you are thinking something funny, and can she guess, and then tell her what it is.  Then she can do the same.    
Another game might be like 'Mr Wolf' in the playground.  Either you or some toys, moved closer to her while she turns away, without her knowing that they have moved.  Learning about where her own space begins and ends.
These are not meant to replace therapy, but playing might help reassure her of her own integrity as a person.  An antidote to some of the poison.  But take or leave as you wish; only you know your own daughter.  You describe her as strong and determined, and that is such a lovely thing to see in her, I am sure.  I hate her to be so frightened by this nasty man.     Sorry, shouldn't say too much, but I understand you not wanting her to spend time with him.
My daughter has a highly manipulative dad, and I have to do a certain amount of unravelling just from a phone call, let alone a visit.  I have seen nothing on the scale that you describe, and I feel for you.  I am sure that with the right support your daughter can overcome these issues, and I certainly wish you well with it.

[Anonymous]

Oh October,

Thank you for your words.  My daughter is 7 and I think she would enjoy playing those games with me.  

I think what you wrote about not knowing where she begins and ends regarding her N Dad is so true.  Thanks for the lightbulb moment.  Once she's home after a visit she seems to be able to transition back to "normal".  Some days it takes a little longer than others but she is able to do it.  

These next weeks will be so pleasant since she won't be seeing him and usually he never calls while away.  So basically we all have a two week vacation! YAY!

Both kids are doing very well today.  We just returned from dinner out with my Mom and they really enjoyed themselves.  

I hope your daughter is doing well. It sounds like you do a wonderful job with "damage control" regarding your X's antics.  How is he fairing BTW?

Thanks for the games.  I am psyched to play them now.  

Take care.
Mia

[Anonymous]

mud said:

I'm in my forties and my lovely brother has made such an effort over the years to act like he is a 'fly on the wall' that I feel like he is watching me or can find out what I'm doing half the time. He can't of course, but they exploit the information they do have to sound omniscient and it can get into a persons head. If it can get into a grown man's head who knows better, it can surely scare a little girl who doesn't.

I know.  I have to remind myself of the dictator he was during our marriage.  Big Brother was always there breathing down my neck.  


If everyone doesn't mind I would like to share a letter I received this afternoon in the mail from X N's attorney.  The letter was addressed to the children's therapist with a cc to me and X N.
It reads as follows:


Dear Ms. S:

Both my client and I are somewhat concerned as to the fact that this matter has been lingering so long and it appears that there may not be positive success being made.

In addition, I am somewhat confused as to what you perceive your role is in this matter.  Is it as a counselor for the children, is it for family counseling to enable Ms. H and Mr. R to communicate with each other, or is it as an evaluator or mediator?

Awaiting to hear from you, I am.

This cracks me up since it was made quite clear that therapy was court ordered at my request to help the children adjust to more time with their Father.  X N resisted the idea of therapy and initially was in contempt of the court order since he failed to contact the T by the deadline given by the Judge.  

The kicker is that just THREE WEEKS AGO X N sent a letter to Therapist telling her how pleased he was the therapy was progressing so well (at that point he had only been to one session).  Can everyone else see the contradiction he made within a three week time frame?  And the fact that he has his lawyer writing to the T is ridiculous IMHO.  

I believe after his last session with T he came to the realization that therapy is not rewarding him in any way.  He figures it's a waste of his time.  The kids just started in early March and he feels therapy has been lingering?  Give me a break.

Is he digging a hole for himself or won't anyone even care?

Sorry, but I can't seem to stop venting.  Thanks for listening.

Mia